Kinfire Chronicles and The Era of $150 Board Games

[@NoPunIncluded]

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[@bryanwinston8820]

I think you should keep mentioning price when you review boardgames Efka. In fact I think you should mention whatever you want to mention.

[@NoPunIncluded]

aww that's really sweet, thanks!

[@dominicparker6124]

​@@NoPunIncluded not talking about price due to some sense of objective design analysis would only read as out of touch in today's economic climate

[@JerreMuesli]

That's what they do with computer games already when they rate value for money

[@TheSludgeMan]

I agree, I take Dan's point but I think it's one of those academic/abstract arguments that makes more sense on paper than in reality, (if you get me). During a cost of living crisis it's more helpful than ever as a consumer to have a sense of whether the reviewer - broadly speaking - believes the box represents value for money.

[@jonathanfryer1319]

Interesting watch. Much appreciated. 👍

[@sylinmino]

The funny bit is that on the other side of the spectrum, they also produced Kinfire Delve. A lightweight solo/co-op experience as a single-scenario dungeon crawler and boss fight. It costs a bit over $20, has incredible production values for that price, and has some incredible consistency in its build quality. Would highly recommend. I like that they're providing options like that.

[@karaso0]

I've been playing it a fair amount, shocked by how little attention it's getting. My gf even played a round with me because the art intrigued her. Mind you my gf doesn't play board games or card games at all but she picked it up right away and we came and with the victory.

[@MikeUnderwood]

+1 to Kinfire Delve being a beautiful product at a great value and a solid play experience.

[@AltroseSenar]

After playing a friend's copy of Chronicles I have been looking at picking up Delve myself.

[@DuncanMolloy]

Is Delve a stripped-down version of the systems in Chronicles, or different game in the same setting?

[@sylinmino]

@@DuncanMolloy it's a different game with some similar core hooks and same setting.

[@danieljdm9519]

Love seeing the Space Biff shoutout - more people should read his stuff; he's the best written board game reviewer by a large margin.

[@Tivizzz]

Oh yes, Dan Thurot is a bona fide legend.

[@flipz101]

Am so glad you mention the price and include this in your review. It annoys me when other reviewers ignore this as it is such a central aspect for us! We want to know if it is ‘worth the money or not’. I have asked this question to other reviewers and they always reply with a ‘cop out’ answer like “well that’s subjective to you so I couldn’t possibly answer that question for you…’ If something is vastly over priced, then it is obvious and reviewers should say so! Thank you 👍 You are the most honest boardgame reviewer channel 👍

[@mati11223]

I recommend this game as not-fan of these sort of games. They are usually a bit much for me, but this was pleasant, easy to learn, filled with tactics and nice coop play.

[@NoPunIncluded]

Yeah it's definitely all these things!

[@CrystalDax]

I, and I mean this most emphatically, like milk.

[@NoPunIncluded]

I think milk is really good in its concentrated forms. Cheese, sour cream, double cream, butter.

[@mahna_mahna]

@@NoPunIncludedDon't forget the pinnacle: ice cream.

[@emmaplaysgreen2849]

Sadly Crystal, I hate milk! But I do love it in other forms, such as thick crême fraîche d'Isgny with a kouign amann, or demi-sel Breton butter, spread on a fresh, warm baguette, or one of the hundreds of different French cheeses, whether they're made from cow's, goat's or even sheep's milk (fromage de brebis)!

[@joelbergvonlinde1389]

Milk is soo good 👍👍

[@Fangrim]

Dairy milk is exploitation.

[@bekkison]

It looks a game where you frequently find yourself in deep chit.

[@daniellebackus819]

This is one of the most expensive games I have bought, but it’s also one of the best games I have ever played. Finished the whole campaign and loved every moment, and started a second one. I’m middle class and don’t have kids, so it’s an expense I can afford. I completely get why someone else wouldn’t be able to afford it, given how expensive just food is these days.

[@mc-designhacker]

I'm middle class and have 3 kids. For my family to go see one movie and get snacks and drinks (this is like a twice a year event at this point) ends up being close to $175. Sure, we could go to the cheap theatre on a Tuesday and not buy snacks, but I could also buy a cheap game--our rare family movie theatre excursions are premium entertainment that my kids remember and refer back to fondly. Likewise, Kinfire Chronicles: Night's Fall was bar none the best value "premium entertainment" purchase I bought last year. My kids and I have had multiple weekends full of adventure, story, and fun, and we aren't even done the campaign yet.

[@neilwalker4277]

So you're saying a game should be priced on how good it is? 😉 I see nothing in this game production that costs this much, other than the higher profit margin.

[@daniellebackus819]

@@neilwalker4277I mean… an expensive game that is bad… I think that’s worse than a cheap game that is bad. We only have so much time and money, and if a game takes both of those away from me… I’m not going to be happy. This game took my money, but gave me a great time. That’s usually what I’m hoping for when I buy a game, haha.

[@yipyipyipi]

For my personal taste, I'd prefer a $150 USD game that's incredibly playable, than pay $60 USD for a game I'll have to get storage solutions and set up help for after the fact. I love Gloomhaven, but without an organizer it wasn't getting to the table at all, it was just such a hassle to put out and put away. Same for so many games, even cheaper ones. I often end up buying things to help organize cards, tokens, and player space, so why not just spend it up front and get it custom made.

[@hermanturnip3984]

This is an engrossing game that's easy to learn and tough to put down. I'm the kind of guy who, after a few rounds, quickly moves on to the latest/greatest game in my collection. Kinfire is the rare exception where I didn't want to stop playing. I"m nearing mid journey in the game and find that I need more table space thanks to the giant map, but I'm still going strong with characters who are getting quite respectable with their powers. This game is, to put it bluntly, the "good stuff". Thumbs up. My one complaint is with the terrible wheel hubs that hold the point spinners together. Most of them in my box simply didn't work, failing to lock together. Horrible quality control on those things.

[@daniellebackus819]

Tuck some tissue or paper into the plastic dial pieces and they’re muuuuch better. The final 3 scenarios are the definite highlight of the game!

[@UmarAhmedBRU]

They are definitely the worst part of the game. Took out a hammer to try to get them in a little better. Will try other suggestions in the comments. But for a game that cost this much, how an integral part of the game (tracking hit points) came with such low quality components baffles me.

[@seearesee]

Absolutely FANTASTIC game. Surprised it has gone under the radar a little bit because it's such a lovely co-op game with a simple, addictive core. My only real complaint was the separate rulebooks. Absolutely HATED that especially if you have to reference something in middle of play.

[@devinkerr5474]

I think the price is really making it fly under people's radar. Just about everyone i've spoken to in my area is aware of the game, but just never looked into it after seeing the price

[@pljjk9400]

Great analysis as always! Makes me wonder how far the boardgame industry can stretch the lavishness standard of boardgames. Surely there must be saturation point somewhere? I don't mean to cast shade on Kinfire -- seems like a nice, perhaps even great game -- but we have our Kallax monstrosity already filled with Gloomhaven, Oathsworn, Frosthaven, Eclipse 2nd, Tainted Grail, Nemesis, Sleeping Gods, Star Wars Armada (technically not in the Kallax) and more. Of course, they each more or less succesfully carve out their own niches, but it makes me wonder about the future of boardgaming and how accessible it'll still be in a few years. What direction is the hobby going in under the pressures of kickstarters, pandemics and increasing income gaps? One thing I worry about is the increasing 'professionalism'of boardgame design which seems to mimic evolution the videogame industry went through in the last two decades. From small studios doing wild, revolutionary things (of which, granted, many failed) to large corporate run studios creating flashy but bland-tasting iterations of known success formulas: are we on the brink of the Marvelization of boardgames? Kinfire seems like a genuine attempt at innovation, but I can't help but wonder what doors it has opened with investments it has taken. Thank you for reading my ran--I mean essay. Now I have to go back to my actual academic work (sigh).

[@NoPunIncluded]

That's a great takeaway, thank you

[@MrForesythe]

Don't forget Kingdom Death which requires you to remove a spacer (thus voiding anything heavy above it) in your Kallax to fit it.

[@osamamemon3608]

Great take. The video game industry might not be a great example considering the amount of cheaper indie games that have flooded the market in the past 15 years or so. But yeah…where are we headed with all this cardboard and (worse) plastic. That’s a good question to ask.

[@memoman88]

It's going in that direction because people like you are buying them... You're bemoaning/worrying a trend you're funding. It certainly isn't a trend that one has to follow to enjoy the hobby (my biggest game might be Xia or, by volume, Blood Rage). There is nothing wrong with them if they are good games (and all the ones you mentioned are that I've played) but it doesn't need to be that way,

[@VaultBoy13]

@@MrForesythe Or, just don't own a Kallax. There's plenty of other shelving units with better storage that look better. Kallax is popular because it's cheap and works for most board games.

[@karaso0]

I was fortunate enough to get it second-hand with one only the first chapter and 2 characters used for a flat $112 after shipping and I've been loving it so far.

[@patrickotoole6115]

I love this game. Been fun to play. I used a small bit of tissue paper to stick in the dial “buttons” to fix the looseness of some of them.

[@sandrabasel1545]

I had 21 evenings of fun with this, which does indeed mean I got value for my money. I did my research in advance, watching playthroughs so I knew what to expect and it suited my playstile/preferences. That does not mean it is the perfect game or even that it is for everyone, I just happen to love it. 😊

[@keithparker1346]

I've played Scrabble thousands of times for a tenth of the price. I don't get your argument

[@adamwencel5818]

​@@keithparker1346I don't understand what Scrabble Has to do with OP comments. I could just as well say that I played football for thousands of hours for free but that also Has nothing to do with OP post. She paid 150$ +shipping for 21 evenings of fun. That's less than 10$ per evening. So thats a great value. Try to go outside and have a fun evening for 10$. Good luck. And the fact that there are ways to have a fun evening for free doesn't change that.

[@keithparker1346]

@@adamwencel5818 because the poster is comparing a boardgame to something far different. Apples to oranges

[@adamwencel5818]

@@keithparker1346 she's not comparing anything. You are. She's simply stating that whatever she paid for the game was worth it because it provided her 21 evenings of fun. Since it averages to less then 10$ per evening I fully agree with her.

[@keithparker1346]

@@adamwencel5818 good for them. It's still a meaningless argument

[@rushhowell2626]

Bought this because of this channel. And loved it. Thanks!

[@JohnDoe-jr4pt]

I really like this game and would totally buy it again. But you're absolutely right about the dials. They are hotdog water.

[@daniellebackus819]

Yes. They are super chitty dials. But fantastic game, haha.

[@VaultBoy13]

Agree. Great game. Terrible dials.

In my country some games cost more than a monthly minimum wage. A Warhammer 40k patrol box costs roughly 30% more than the minimum MONTHLY wage.

[@samuelnunes2641]

I don’t think board games are expensive at all. A deluxe game like this delivers a great experience for up to 4 people throughout many months. Comparing with going to the theater to watch a single 2:30 hours movie with an average cost of $40/person( with popcorn and add-ons). It’s definitely a much cheaper form of entertainment if you think of it that way.

[@Martin-zu3le]

I have to agree, and dont forget after you are done with the game you can sell it and get a big chunk of your money back. Boardgaming is only expensive for people who dont have control over their FOMO and always want to play the new shit and not the games they already own.

[@houdini329]

I have to disagree. If you start these kinds of purely quantitative calculations, you simplify it too much. You could justify almost any price that way, if you really tried. Its fine to have luxury boardgames or extra bling, if you want it, but that shouldn't unnecessarily raise the standard prices by 50 to 100 or XXXX%

[@keithparker1346]

That's just an opinion comparing apples to oranges...compare this to other boardgames...it's too expensive

[@VaultBoy13]

@@houdini329The standard prices have barely raised over the past 10 years though. The price of this game is an outlier rather than commonplace. Go through all the board games released in 2023 and pull up their retail price. The median is likely $50-60.

[@saltedgerman]

I've personally found that people in the industry that say we shouldn't talk about price aren't the ones that would have to spend a significant percentage of their income on a single purchase that they may not even end up liking.

[@ViscountCharles]

"Timing is important" and "decide whose turn it is by pulling something from a bag" were both core parts of the robin Hood co-op game FWIW.

[@ViscountCharles]

"Expensive KS game with lots of ambition and some interesting ideas, but lacking in development?" Every other large KS game says "hold my beer".

[@spnoreika]

Ever more quality content from my favourite creator!

[@biomeboardgame]

Oooh my brother love this, i haven't personally tried this but this looks fun!

[@martinidamian]

Is it wrong that for that price I expect minis and not standies?

[@achang101]

Kinfire Chronicles is a great game. Really had a lot of fun with the game. The only disappointment was when it ended. Can’t wait for more.

[@devinkerr5474]

KEEP GOING OFF ABOUT PRICE!!! I think a lot of reviewers, despite mentioning how many games they get sent all the time, forget they likely having paid for many of these games and don't take that into consideration This game is $180 CAD in my area and while I'm sure the game is lovely, I can get about 3-6 other amazing games for this price and don't think I could possible justify this. The dice tower has a 10-15 minute discussion about this game and I don't think the price is mentioned once. This is (unintentionally) deceiving, cause they discuss the game in such an endearing way that if I stumbled upon their review, I would expect a $70-$100 CAD campaign game, not $180.00+ tax. Everywhere is just singing the games praises and telling you it's amazing and to buy it, and no one is asking about the price of the game and how much play you can get for that $180.

[@gavinshickle1814]

This is the first time I have seen one of your videos and I appreciate someone willing to give an honest assessment of a game instead of over hyping a game. I have never heard of this game before and for $150 I don't see myself ever wanting to pick it up. I was never thrilled with games at an $80 - $100 price point. As these companies start pushing their asking price higher and higher I'll be even less inclined to give their games a try. Especially when you look at the sheer volume of games being released all the time. There is simply not enough time in life for all these games unless you did nothing else from the moment you woke up until the moment you went to bed.

[@Tommywolfi]

I bought this on KS where it was just 100 and already and in it end it was so worth it. Would probably not consider if I saw it in a store for 150 and that would be a pity

[@Slausondesigns]

This game is absolutely incredible and I'm so excited it's getting steadily more attention. There are so many small touches and quality of life factors that just make playing the game smooth and easy. It's so fast to set up and tear down, which isn't always the case with dungeon crawlers. The tutorial pretty much set us up for the rest of the campaign and when we did have questions, the 4 different mini-rulebooks quickly answered what we were unsure about. This is the RPG dungeon crawler I have been searching for, down to the town exploration, memorable NPCS, and organic world building that I love so much from video game RPGs but often seem like afterthoughts in board game dungeon crawlers. The cost is what it is, but I think that it's intended to be played more than once, switching characters, trying different builds, and making different decisions throughout the branching plot lines.

[@karaso0]

Have you tried Delve? I'm genuinely falling in love with the verse and team behind the Kinfire brand.

[@daniellebackus819]

@@karaso0have you read the webtoons? I’m not into manga or comic books in general, but those are really, really good. I’ve read about half of what’s out there, and it definitely adds to the lore while playing the game.

[@karaso0]

@@daniellebackus819 I have not, Sounds like I might have to look into for sure.

[@3RenRen3]

Great and honest review, well done! seeing the price tag, how much is the "resellability" factor for this game? maybe in the second hand market will be a good value

[@EmilyF0915]

Fantastic review! I backed Kinfire Chronicles on a whim despite my very low income (PhD student, we make actual poverty wages) and haven't regretted it. Definitely an investment, but the art is lovely, the combat is fun, and I'm enjoying the story thus far. But the lack of rulebook is definitely frustrating, and I'm a little bummed to hear the story doesn't go anywhere. I know there's a web comic series they released related to the game, perhaps that fleshes it out a bit...

[@daniellebackus819]

Yes, definitely read the webtoon. It’s nice to have all of those mental images stored up when playing the game. It’s not about these same seekers, but there is a character similar to Khor (are they called Revenants?) and it spends a lot of time exploring how they came to be and the ethics of them. The webtoons are about the original seekers, before there was a seekers guild.

[@somefishhere]

Kinfire Delve is also a milky game

[@HarryBuddhaPalm]

I have a hard enough time trying to play the games I spent $20 on.

[@PaulLarke1980]

Dusthaven has been sat on my shelf for about 2 years now unplayed.

[@JCintheBCC]

Speaking of the high cost of games (and not enough time... or friends), I have had Arcadia Quest for 7 years and never played it. I have painted all of the miniatures and enjoyed doing so, which conservatively accounts for 20-25 hours of fun, though... So maybe that offsets some of the price tag? Does that make it "worth it"?

[@mahna_mahna]

Thank you for this video. I can afford a lot of things financially, but not morally, or even just mentally.

[@IslanKleinknecht]

So many board games these days are looking like they should've been a video game.

[@panosp57]

We do not need the startup vibes in board-gaming. The fact that they put up that "this is our team" section to promote shiny professionals as a feature of the boardgame is already off-putting enough for me. And the price to me *is* really important. Especially for the original version of a game. It is ok to have Castles of Burgundy special edition cost anything it wants so far as the base game is one of the cheapest classics out there and everyone can enjoy it. I'm all in for innovation through rules and mechanisms but not through costly components or limited run/overproduced but hollow boardgames.

[@humanthursday199]

Agreed, especially as it really feels like a lot of studios have seen the financial success of "throw a bunch of fluff in the kickstarter box" and tried to iterate and expand that model. It's one thing to show appreciation for the people who make your games, it's another to try to brand your company like a tech company full of gigabrain superhumans creating the most fun known to man... and that's why these pieces of cardboard and plastic cost $175. No $100+ kickstarter model collection can compare to the well designed $40-60 classics that build the modern popularity of boardgames.

[@JM32JM32]

Completely disagree. I don't play competitive board games, only narrative solo/co-ops, so this new trend is absolutely up my alley. A perfect Reiner Knizia design in a $20 box does nothing for me, board game night for me is a variant on book club night. Kinfire is perfect for me.

[@houdini329]

Couldn't agree more

[@Isaiahtjee]

Damn people want to put their name on a product that they worked hard for and are passionate about?? Some appreciation for the illustrators, story writers, and back-end workers besides just the lead designer nahh fuck them right?. You can literally just not look at the page.

[@panosp57]

The comment was not about disregarding the people who create a game. It was about the startup world and the trend of using recognised individuals as a guarantee/feature for your product even though those individuals recognition may have nothing to do with the product at hand. I believe that board games should be a product of love and ideally one that takes years to mature and not an industrialised product based on marketing analysis.

[@spoofoid]

I'm about 5 scenarios in and I approve this message.

[@ElTrolldego]

Someone always pays. If not the consumer, most probably the worker.

[@keithparker1346]

Not to get deep into politics/economics the worker always pays

[@styfen]

Is everything contained in tuck boxes where the lid gets caught by the flaps? I hate the way that happens in most tuck boxes and you have to navigate between opening the box and tearing/creasing the box permanently. I do like the acrylic standees a lot though.

[@daniellebackus819]

The boxes open without the lid getting caught by the flaps. I’m not a designer of boxes, so I don’t have the vocabulary to describe the mechanism… but my boxes look fine after playing through the whole thing once and the first few scenarios a few times.

[@CGoody564]

If games are going to be this pricey, they'd be smart to make stretch pay a standard feature on KS

[@ProvenParadox]

I would like some clarification on "technically resettable" if possible. Are we talking about possibly having to re-sort cards and the like? Or are there stickers and marked components after a campaign? If it's the former, this looks like an easy buy when the early adopters start passing their copies on. I'm already a forever GM, I'm sure I could adapt this to host some good game nights. (If I could ever find face-to-face game group, of course.)

[@daniellebackus819]

It’s completely re-settable, just takes a little while to put the cards back in each box and envelope. I did it over about 3 hours while leisurely watching TV. It’s not a legacy game.

[@ProvenParadox]

@@daniellebackus819Sounds like an excellent time for podcast listening. Thanks for the clarification.

[@shazam2323]

do you have an idea of which we should play first? Delve to get a taste or chronicles first then delve?

[@AlkanDW]

You sooo good man. Love your view.

[@3LANCER]

Game's excellent, probably the best tutorial ever made for a boar game (alongside Fog of Love). It's everything I wanted from Gloomhaven that Gloom just couldn't deliver - story, meaningful decisions, fast-paced battles... Also, did we all forget Frosthaven is freakin' 200 euros?

[@TheKoobon]

150 USD is not a low price just because there are more expensive boardgames on the market

[@MartyKane217]

I would definitely play this over Gloomhaven. We're 3/4 through the campaign. I really like how we can set it up in a couple minutes, play an adventure in 45, play a second one, and still get done before it's too late. Gloomhaven really bogged down for us.

[@MaybeAnnatar]

I tried this with friends and have now played it twice. The chit bag is a neat idea, but it butchered the game for me. Not being able to really plan ahead makes turns feel kinda messy at best for me during your actual turns, and even worse in the two times I played it the second time I just didn't even get a turn. They went on to play again without me and lost before *anyone* got a single turn.

[@daniellebackus819]

That is some very unfortunate chit drawing, but it also sounds like they forgot to use fate tokens or the boost cards that let you redraw the chit.

[@daniellebackus819]

@@captaincrash9002I have only played the tutorial in Aeon’s end, but I’ve tried it multiple times (3 separate occasions I think?) and haven’t beaten it. Out of the 21 scenarios in this box, I think we lost 2 of them in our play-through? There’s plenty of luck mitigation for the chit bag with the fate tokens and boost cards. And it’s not a big deal to lose a scenario in this game. It just changes the story and rewards a bit, but you get to keep going. It’s not as fun to lose as it is to win, but it’s still fun to lose in this game.

[@adrianajames]

Love the discussion on price. I am happy to pay $150 for a game... Then living in australia adding an ADDITIONAL $100+, just to get it here is painful.

[@sebastiang.5032]

This feels a bit like a lesser dark and dreadful version of Oathsworn (which I love), it even has the same chapter count. Still, I'm intrigued.

[@shazam2323]

isn't oathsworn 25 chapters?

[@crazyvolucris]

Nope. 21😎

[@scotchbox]

I loved The King's Dilemma, and it's kind of insane I have to ask each player for £25 just to *help* cover the cost of the sequel, The Queen's Dilemma.

[@houdini329]

Isn't Queen's Dilemma like 75 bucks? That seems to be reasonable compared to this here.

[@scotchbox]

@@houdini329 It seems more reasonable now! I think I must have ordered it when the pound was particularly weak, and when Kickstarter's legendary shipping prices were at their worst. Plus I got the recharge pack to make it replayable.

[@Bubathebest]

What are opinions concerning the trend of 150$ boardgames in the two different directions of highly polished, campaign-like experiences (like this one), and huge-miniatures, 'more replayable' games (an example could be cthulhu wars) or kind of hybrid of the two such as Oathsworn? Do all of these approaches justify the price inflation? (obviously keeping in mind that all of these are technically luxury products)

[@JerreMuesli]

Let's be honest. Their team consists of senior people that all want to get payed accordingly. That's effectively what drives the price. Not what you get in the box.

[@JonGardner]

Crokinole players: Wow! Only $150?! What a steal!

[@justinquail7484]

$100 a decade ago, $150 now. The hard part is when you compare it to groceries and general costs of living, not to mention things people do for fun, $150 for the amount of time you get with it is still quite the value. $150 doesn't go far right now to feed a family or keep a car on the road.

[@auburnt_amaranth]

I was interested, but now I would say it needs a 2nd edition or at least a sequel that improves much on the named negatives. than i wait.

[@DanielBlak]

Lore/story on attack cards feels so self-masturbatory for the writer. Who actually reads that. It just takes up space and slows down the gameplay/cleanliness of the design. Everything else is genius especially the void box! Definitely would prefer this over other big box rpg games.

[@FlatheadFlattener]

"Squeeze every ounce of milk", a name I used to dance under.

[@AlwayzFresh]

OMG it has standees!! This game just shot up to #1 for me personally. Thank you very much for the vid.

[@devinkerr5474]

This be game an issue I had with Orange Nebula. I backed Unsettled, got ALL the stuff for it, and it was an AMAZING game with wonderful production value and I WISH they took like 1/3 of the stuff out. It took some HARDCORE gaming friends to wanna sit through the rules and get into the game. The game had barely launched when Expansions and a NEW game came out asking for another $100 or more of my money. How do we keep gaming at this rate?

[@Hieronymus-Pseudonymous]

2:22 I'm sorry, did you say "Family Combustion Register: Bedtime's Descent?" :)

[@PedroDoderoEscalante]

6:13 Is it lactose free?

[@Filipe.Molina]

The "venture capitalists" mention pretty much explains everything to me

[@soulfulfakealligator]

How many players did you play it with? Do you think it works well as a 2-player experience?

[@daniellebackus819]

I played the whole thing at 2, and it plays very well at that number. I would argue that 4 player might be the least optimal player count, as I’ve heard from others that they get bored when their character chit doesn’t get drawn for a long time, even with the boost cards. The 2 player game is maybe a little harder than 3 players, because if one character gets knocked out in combat, then the whole team loses. The characters have higher HPs in a 2 player game, but there is at least one enemy in the game that will just wipe out any character in like 2 hits. That being said, if you lose a scenario, it’s still fun. You just read what happens because you lost, brush yourself off, and continue to adventure. That’s one of my favorite parts of the game… it’s still fun if you lose.

[@NoPunIncluded]

Late to the comment but yeah 2 is definitely a fun player count.

[@soulfulfakealligator]

Thanks 👍

[@alterskater]

Would you recommend Kinfire over say Oathsworn?

[@NoPunIncluded]

No, and I think that's part of the issue. Kinfire is a) more approachable, b) features a more vibrant setting with a more interesting cast, c) feels up with the times. But Oathsworn's storytelling is just much better developed. And as much as I like Kinfire's combat, it's feather light, and I want some substance somewhere, so I expect to find it in the story telling. I found nuance in it, but that nuance led nowhere. It hints at things, but doesn't really explore them. Kinfire is also a weird inverse of Artisans of Splendent Vale. That game had the best narrative in any board game period. It was (much like Kinfire) bright, imaginative and progressive, but it was also warm and human and relatable. I was engrossed in its world in a way that no board game has managed to achieve. However the combat system wasn't just staid and clunky, it was also laboriously long and put a dead stop into our plays of it. If Artisans had Kinfire's combat, I think it wouldn't just be my game of the year, it'd be a triumphant tour de force. But so far, Oathsworn is probably the game to buy if you want an interesting fantasy narrative with actual world building, but also combat on a table. I just wish Oathsworn's combat was less arcane and it's characters looked less like they were plucked from a skeezy 70s paperback.

[@durmpledrawer469]

I quite like milk ngl This game looks really sick too, but I'm more a milk person myself.

[@Verisi1]

Generally, don't buy games unless they're on a decent sale (things like Board Game Oracle and Reddit can help track this-Kinfire has been as low as ~$85-90). Particularly, Kickstarters are generally a huge value loss given that they murder you on shipping-just wait for the game to release and you'll probably be able to get it cheaper (and sometimes faster!). It is nice to see discussion about the rising standard prices for board games though-it's becoming tougher and tougher to justify them. The first board game that really flagged this idea to me was Blood on the Clocktower; $150+shipping for a social deduction game is... quite a bit.

[@rushhowell2626]

Fwiw, I’ve gotten more value out of Blood on the Clocktower than any other game I’ve bought in at least a decade.

[@zosoknight]

When I see a $150 board game it's just an indicator that I should wait for the $10 Steam sale price later and I'll have a much better player experience.

[@osamamemon3608]

Lmao love this comment. Steam sale.

[@FuncleChuck]

We had the opportunity to demo Kinfire at a convention each of the past few years, and each time we walked past the demo and went “ehhhh… let’s go find a drink instead” It’s just too much, and I like big games.

[@Nash_Idaho]

As a designer I may look at a game like this and say that maybe it would have been better as an RPG.

[@houdini329]

But why? There seems to be a lot of mechanism and game here. I mean, you could say the same about Glooomhaven and there are a couple of people who liked that one quite much as a board game.

[@hardy83]

I gave up on big games. It's just not worth it. As you said, you can get a plethora of smaller games, video games, multiple movies at the theater, hell some are worth as much as an okay computer system. Even being financially comfortable it's just... Hard to justify. Here's an example. I bought for ~$230 USD, THIRTEEN Button Shy card games and like 25+ expansions vs getting this single game and maybe an expansion or two. Yeah those are small card games, but many have a lot of replay value both multiple and solo vs getting a game like this that wants you to play a specific way and, is just one game... But I guess that's why this industry is interesting, it's a good balance between over endulgent and casual low cost and a broad range of quality stuff in between. Oh and everything is art, and things that cost money aren't immune from criticism because of said cost no matter how "art" it is. It's a consumable and entertainment, it'll always be something that's important.

[@keithparker1346]

Most hobby/modern boardgames are not cheap though. It's an issue that's rarely addressed

[@emmaplaysgreen2849]

Something that struck me Efka, as I watched this video, concerning your point that yes, if you're middle class then you can afford this game: What about those of us who are working class, or like me, on disability benefits and actually poor, living in poverty? How do we get to access good quality board games - not the plastic crap that's on supermarket shelves, masquerading as boardgames? Do we not deserve to play board games? By the way, I'm sure Efka know this because he knows me, but for anyone else reading, this isn't a criticism of Efka or anything he said. And it's not a criticism of this game or most other games with high production values, as long as they make sense! I do believe that everyone involved in the production of board games deserves to be paid! But I also don't believe that this isn't a hobby that should only be the preserve of the middle class! It should be much more accessible to all and that isn't something that is discussed enough in our community. That's why we should keep talking about price and value for money. I always appreciate it when NPI and, notably, SUSD discuss pricing and value for money of games. A higher price point isn't as much of a concern if it provides value for money! All the games in the Gloomhaven family will provide excellent value for money, for example. I have often spoken up myself on this subject on social media in the past but boardgame social media has become more and more splintered since the whole Twitter disaster and I spend much less time there now 😞

[@NoPunIncluded]

Hey Emma, The intention of that line was not to exclude someone who isn't middle class, the intention is to highlight that it is reasonably affordable only to someone who's middle class (or, you know, wealthy). I was specifically trying to highlight that to many this is not affordable.

[@emmaplaysgreen2849]

​@@NoPunIncluded I think that **I** got that Efka, because I think that I know you well enough, by now, to know that you wouldn't exclude people who are below that social/income class but what I was trying to point out is that all too often, these high prices and the deluxification of games is excused by saying that this **is** a hobby for middle class people, maybe not in those precise words though. (I'm pretty sure that we actually agree on this and it's just online text comms getting in the way, as always!) No, the phrase that gets used so, so often is usually something along the lines of: it's a luxury hobby. And I disagree very strongly with that premise. Playing boardgames, even well made, well designed shouldn't have to be a 'luxury' hobby. That doesn't mean that I disagree with the idea of games that are made with high production values, or with deluxe versions being made of existing games. I played a friend's ridiculously deluxe version of Castles of Burgundy a few months ago and it was a really fun experience. That game brings him a lot of joy, he plays it often and he can afford it, so why not? But I do appreciate publishers that find ways to make their games more accessible to those with different incomes - offering different pledge levels, with more deluxification at higher prices, is a good thing, as long as the base level still includes the same gameplay! And it's not just about the games themselves, it's about how we can make the hobby as a whole much more accessible! Board game libraries, such as the publically run ludothéques here in France and similarly, boardgame clubs (again, in France, we can get government funding and support) can also make our hobby much more accessible to everyone. Anyway, this was just something that was sparked by what you said rather than a direct response, if that makes sense? 💚

[@daniellebackus819]

Does your local public library offer board games? Mine does, and it’s awesome! I have donated some of my games to them and it’s been fun to check the catalogue to see if the game is still in circulation and whether it is currently checked out. This game in particular likely isn’t great for a library to check out (since it takes several hours to reset it if the whole thing is played). Your comment has motivated me to look again at my games and donate some more that I like, but don’t feel like I still feel compelled to have my own copy. Everdell is looking good for that…

[@emmaplaysgreen2849]

@daniellebackus819 Not the library itself no, instead here, we have ludothèques which are toy and games libraries, usually funded by the local town government and run either by paid staff or by volunteers, on the smaller ones.

[@daniellebackus819]

@@emmaplaysgreen2849very cool!

[@MelodicMethod]

do I love milk? I butt-chug milk on the daily!!!

[@sevencoloredmage8726]

That type of rule book is a big turn off, even for just playing another person's copy. Scott Nicholson said it a long time ago: if you haven't learned the rules of your board game in preperation, sit out a game to study them on your own or play something else. It's just rude to steal everybody elses game night time.

[@Zilong09]

$150?! It's more like $250-350 for CAD for a lot of campaign games.

[@j3errym]

I almost backed, the deck management rminds me of Mistfall, which IMO is better, there were plenty of enthusiastic short reviews but the longer plays didn't seem that immersive. In the end I felt Fateforge: Chronicles of Kaan was a better spend, Mighty Boards have a great track record, great customer service and their games are good. I had enough money left over to get HexploreIt Fall of the Ancients Campaign Book, I picked up the FOA in a trade (a secondary game as I traded a more expensive one) and when I got round to playing it it soon became one pf my favourites. Still feel that I have not missed out.

[@st0ox]

You mean the era of 900$ Boardgames like aeon trespass odyssey?

[@NoPunIncluded]

Thankfully, those are still outliers.

[@CGoody564]

To be fair, that's like... 5 games for $900. Still nuts that one of them is like 300, but eh. That's becoming more common

[@st0ox]

@@CGoody564 It was not my intention to criticize the current wave of Crowd Funding Board Games to have not enough content worth their money. But you currently get a feeling that if a campaign has not some ridiculously big all in pledges best directly sold with their own Kallax (pretty sure I stole this joke from this channel) with loads of extra stuff the creators fear they don't receive enough funding. What I would like to see is more successful campaigns where most people just choose a 70€ pledge or where the max pledge is below 100€. This is the reason I like GMT P500, because they are below 100€, don't have loads of miniatures and over deluxified components, but on the other hand don't lack good gameplay, are playtested very well and you just have to pay when they actually ship the game. I don't say I don't like these Kallax sized board games, but I would like to see more "normal" sized board games in the top 10 most funded board games at the end of the year. I just think the current trend gets somewhat out of hand and there are definitely board games where the content feels a bit inflated to fit the current trend. To give a counter example: Sleeping Gods Distance Skies had a lot of game in a fairly sized box for a fair price. 2 or 3 more of these games in the top most funded games list of 2024 and I rest my case.

[@st0ox]

@@CGoody564 wrote a long comment that got deleted for some reason. But basically I agreed with what you said.

[@fairdav]

*cough* *cough* Kingdom *cough* Death *cough* *cough*

[@Captainlunchbox]

Where's the price complaint for gloomhaven, which arguably kicked off the big box board game craze

[@morgaknightgames]

I decided to pass on this one. I was torn, since I really liked the art style and the standees, but then again the price point just felt way too much for what we got. I also had already bought too many campaign games which are all deliving at the same time and are not getting played fast enough (Oathsworn, Nova Aetus, Agemonia, Resident Evil, Tainted Grail). Plus the Yikes bag. Not a fan of bag building in general.

[@daniellebackus819]

You don’t build the bag like in Quacks or Wonderland’s War (which are some of my faves, haha). There is one character who can use their lantern ability to remove a chit that has already been spent from circulation for that scenario… and since I LOVE that mechanism in deck/bag builders, I definitely loved that ability. The bag is a fun way to plan based on probabilities and have a dramatic turn of events. Like, once you realize there are only 3 good chits left and 9 bad ones, you probably will decide to use a fate token and pray for the best. Or after you have taken a beating from the enemies, you realize most of the chits left are for your team, so even though you’re all at very low HP and out of fate tokens, you reach your hand in the bag and hope for the best!

[@morgaknightgames]

@@daniellebackus819 I can see why people would enjoy the system, but it really would make me frustrated not having a dedicated turn system or going off of a character agility stat. But that's why there are other games out there!

[@daniellebackus819]

@@morgaknightgamesagreed, love the diversity in gaming! And it’s great to figure out what you like and what you don’t, so you don’t waste your $$$

[@tehpickle1250]

Milk makes me gassy 😢 I hope Kinfire Chronicles doesn’t also make me gassy. I’ll be nought but a trouser trumpeting troubadour.

[@Tolinar]

6:14 Milk is the drink of tough people who work two jobs and spend their free time on board games. I like milk. Good job.

[@Aoshi312]

Great review

[@Merlandese]

I don't know why but so much of this reminds me of Thornwatch. It's undoubtedly nothing like it, but I just keep thinking of it for some reason lol

[@Aliessil]

I knew this wasn't a game I'd buy as soon as I saw the title. You said it yourself in the video, you can buy 4 or 5 other games for the same money, and I'd much rather do that. Then on watching the review, it just doesn't look like it's worth that kind of money.

[@Drumox]

I've backed only 4 board game KS campaigns, and some of them were defining too expensive, but they were collectors editions of old games that have good ratings. If they are brand new untested games, i can't even think of justifying that cost

[@2MeatyOwlLegs]

I've played my fair share of KS games that friends have backed and honestly found most of them boring. The games that weren't boring were way to expensive and thus wouldn't be of interest to me either.

[@aleksandrivanchenko6323]

+1 for a milk 🥛

[@daviblight]

cant wait for your milk review of wyrmspan

[@aleksandrivanchenko6323]

Bought "Quest for El Dorado" for 30$ and it is a blast to teach and play even with no "pro board gamers", so the board games expensive if you choose them to be expensive 😉

[@thereelaristotle]

Yup and it's generally these overwrought games that should have just been a video game. Instead it's a $150+ board game with laborious rules, repetitive play and a story that is so mind numbing its painful to read. Whenever people praise the writing in a board game I question whether they have ever read a book in their adult life.

[@VaultBoy13]

@@thereelaristotle You couldn't be more wrong on this one. The design of the game is elegant. It's designed to be a board game. It's playable in about 60 minutes. It's easily teachable. It's fair to criticize the price. It's fair to criticize the dials. But, you're simply speaking from a position of ignorance when it comes the gameplay. Also, people can enjoy and praise a board game story simply for being fun and engaging. A pulp fiction novel can be a lot of fun. Not everything has to be nuanced and deep. Your attempt to elevate yourself over others just makes you come off as a pompous aristothole.

[@pirotehs]

Maybe, instead of complaining about cost of big games (looks like it bothers Efka), NPI should pay more attention to cheap and not so expensive games. NPI doesn't do many reviews, but in the last year NPI featured Kinfire Chronicles, Lords of Ragnarok. Voidfall, Ankh, Sleeping Gods, Aeon Trespass: Odyssey, Hoplomachus: Victorum, Guards of Atlantis II and Frosthaven review is only 13 month old. Cheap, good games exist!!!

[@NoPunIncluded]

Neat trick, if you only list the expensive games that we've reviewed, it looks like we only review expensive games!

[@arkanain0]

Most of your reviews are complaining or something unrelated to the game ​@@NoPunIncluded

[@gedgedk4929]

Don't they get them for free?

[@NoPunIncluded]

@@gedgedk4929 hardly half the games we reviewed in the history of the channel were review copies and last year we implemented a "no review copy policy" so, no. We don't so much get them for free.

[@leavemydogalone]

This comment is hilarious because the evidence of it not being based in reality is literally two clicks away.

[@johnathanrhoades7751]

I’m middle class, but we’re working on a budget at this point. So, yeah, I could technically afford it, but it would be all my pocket money for two months. Board games over $100 are just a bit too much for me generally at this point. (I think I would still prefer Earthborne Rangers and did back that before getting on a stricter budget…)

[@ionutcaiuteanu5346]

Thx to this review you saved me from wasting money on this game

[@philiple4182]

I - do - like milk. Thanks for acknowledging us, NPI.

[@JCintheBCC]

Value is a hard thing to discuss, simply because it's going to be subjective to the player's priorities and budget. But Price is not. Always talk about price and price relative to similar games. I think your perspective will always be valuable (ha) there. If two pickup trucks both cost $50k, one may very well be objectively a better value relative to one another, and a reviewer can call that out. But if I don't want a pickup truck, neither will ever be "worth it" for me. You are definitely qualified to speak to the former, and simply leave the latter to viewer. Thank you! (FWIW, I look at this game and the production value and design and player count and think "well, 4 players means each player is paying ~$40 to play this game... if we play for 5 hours (a very conservative estimate, it appears), this costs $8/hr of play time for my playgroup. Is it worth at least $8/hr of entertainment to me and my friends?"

[@The_Real_Danger_Mouse]

6:01 Milk? How about some Scythian Kumis. See? Milk is a manly drink!

[@jascat7297]

Does chocolate milk count?

[@JScottGaribay]

I like milk.

[@shazam2323]

i like alot about the game but could never get over the tinyyyy maps

[@KitMagnification]

A+ on the thumbnail! And of course the content too. 💖

[@robertthurman9866]

Standard KS project. "The 2nd edition will be awesome, honest we really mean it this time!"

[@anonymouse8953]

„They have rushed it“ just nails it perfectly. Could have been a top ten game, but it failed storywise and didnt got enough playtesting. Did they playtest this game with 4 Players - ever?! We had fun playing this 2handed, but controlling only 1 Character can end up as horrible gaming expirience.

[@strangemobius]

Brillbrook of Asha on the Forty Five

[@alfyb4512]

I didn’t realize this was a legacy game until late in the video. $150 for a game I won’t replay? Yeah that’s not a model I want to support…

[@NoPunIncluded]

It's not legacy. It's resettable, it's just a real faf to do it.