A Military Analysis of The Two Towers

Belated Happy New Year!
Escape from Labyrinth audio chapters 1-4 playlist
• Escape from Labyrinth ...
Buy Escape from Labyrinth on Amazon
amzn.to/3iuFSox
The Northward Journey audio chapters 1-3
• The Northward Journey ...
Buy The Northward Journey on Amazon:
amzn.to/3h7ot7J
Earl the Dragon Slayer audio chapters 1-3
• Earl the Dragon Slayer...
Buy Earl the Dragon Slayer on Amazon
amzn.to/3zm2DUE
The Pub on the Other Side of the Forest audio chapters 1-6
• The Pub on the Other S...
Buy The Pub on the Other Side of the Forest on Amazon
www.amazon.co....
Escape from Labyrinth: Writing Fantasy in Postmodernity (Livestream with Nathan Hood)
• Escape from Labyrinth:...
Thanks to Cinder Mountain Villager for the video introduction.
Twitter: @CinderMountain
Thanks to Leo Guinid for the diving suit animation.
Twitter: @LeoVOMage
Website: www.facebook.c...
Thanks to M.V. for the banner art and background for this video.
Twitter: @mdvnsn
Website: formhouse.co/
Copyright Disclaimer under section 107 of the Copyright Act of 1976, allowance is made for “fair use” for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, education and research.

[@ForgottenHonor0]

"It seems nobody competent is leading the Uruk-Hai army!" Well, to be fair, your Imperial Majesty, they were born _practically yesterday!_

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

He probably arrogantly ignored the advice of the mordor orcs sent to aide him. Those orcs were likely veterans of decades if not centuries of combat, but none were sent to aide the uruks in the films (unlike the books) not even to use experiance to aide the uruks.

[@jankruger7551]

69 likes and it will stay like that

[@dougmartin2007]

Yeah, given how difficult it is to organize a group of 10,000 people I find the Uruk0hai behavior realistic. "You're ruining a siege - tomorrow!" Beyond armor a weapons the army will need to consider food, water, (for humans, light sources), communications, scouts, what to do about relief armies, etc. All those guys with pikes were probably equipped for a field battle against horsemen and had no time to get other weapons.

[@transformersrevenge9]

@Greg Elchert Both Saruman and Sauron were confident that their superior numbers could overrun the smaller force they were up against. But in both big battles, the good guys were well dug in, in their castles.

[@ElysiaWhitemoonOmega]

@@transformersrevenge9 remembering the batle at minas tirith, that battle is more organised, i guess sauron and the witch king have more experience in combat, than saruman or lurtz

[@jacobktan]

In fairness to Theoden, in the book he sends the civilians to Helm's Deep and plans to meet the Urukhai on the field but most of his army is scattered by the Urukhai at the Ford's of Isen, and he is forced to divert to Helm's Deep with the survivors he can gather.

[@RESOPO1]

He actually send the to Dunharrow, not Helm's Deep

[@paulraines9635]

In the books, the women or children weren't in the Glittering caves and Gimli was killing orcs in there.

[@RESOPO1]

@@paulraines9635 That's only the people living close by in the Westfold area. The population of Edoras (at least the valuable ones= were send to Dunharrow.

[@MrChickennugget360]

@@paulraines9635 yes they were. the difference is in the books Rohan is a much bigger country so the civilians fleeing Edoras were going to Dun Harrow while the civilians in Helm's Deep were from Westfold. the implication of the movies was done so that the audience would not get confused so Dun Harrow was not referenced until Return of the King and the folk of Westfold are not mentioned as hiding in Helms Deep (although is possible that the people already in HD were those people) Big difference is Rohan feels smaller since they reach Helm's Deep on foot after a few days travel while the same time in the book is only done on horseback at a fast pace.

[@thodan467]

Not to Hems deep but other fortresses, Theoden then forces Saruman to Attacl Helms Deep by deploying there, or the Uruks would have him cutting their line to Isengard

[@helmutthat8331]

The pikes make sense when you consider that they were expecting cavalry, as they were facing a culture that had a large mounted contingent.

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

Pikes are not the best against cavalry. Their flanks are extremely vulnerable and even frontally the pike is vulnerable if its formation is too loose (as stated by many Renaissance pike drill books), what is worse is that the close formaitons needed for pikes to be able to defend against cavalry is vulnerable to infantry and archers, while the loser formaitons needed to fight infantry effectively in melee were vulnerable to cavalry (also mentioned in Renaissance pike drill books). And even well trained pikes in close formaitons are vulnerable to elite cavalry lancers (who can and did parry the lances if set up in good tight formaitons themselves, see the french-italian wars for a good example). Pikes need to be well trained and have good lighter infantry and good cavalry on their flanks (ideally infantry with missile weapons to break up formaitons of the charging cavalry, or to scare off missile cavalry. Hence why pike & *shot* became the answer to cavalry not pikes alone). In the books the army of isengard had only a few pikemen who were important in the battle of the ford's of isen. But had plenty of other troops to support them. Movie isengard leans too heavily into pikes.

[@delfinenteddyson9865]

While I agree with you, when they arrive at the wall they might as well store them somewhere when they see no cavalry around

[@jamiejamie9549]

​@@matthiuskoenig3378 to be fair to the uruk hair pikes, they're not facing muskets, they're heavily armoured, they presumably have contingents of warg riders which we see in the raid where aragorn falls and they have soldiers equipped with sword and shield making them much more mobile. Pikes could be incredibly useful to pressure formations to move and force the lightly armoured defenders to avoid the breach even if they didn't inflict heavy casualties, no one (horse or human) will willingly run into the sharp pointy sticks.

[@jamiejamie9549]

​@@matthiuskoenig3378 sorry my reply might me a bit messy, i'm fucking knackered

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

@@jamiejamie9549 I am not saying pikes are useless, just that movie uruks lean too heavily into them as depicted on screen. Alteratively armed troops are not seen except in specific circumstances and in limited numbers.

[@NUSensei]

Speaking as an archer here: you seem to put too much emphasis on volley-shooting for effectiveness, both in the defense and attack on Helm's Deep and the Gondorians at Osgiliath. Films draw heavily on a modern concept of volley shooting - specifically, the massed volleys from gunpowder line infantry. That sort of synchronised volley shooting is possible with muskets because the troops are trained to load and fire by the numbers, and the impact of a massed volley can break an enemy unit. Massed, synchronised volleys are not good at suppression because there are large gaps between volleys. Additionally, because archers are _not_ trained to shoot by tempo, it's far more difficult to get an archer unit to shoot together in one volley. Nor would a volley of arrows have the same impact as a volley of musket balls. Most of the arrows will miss, those that hit will be mitigated by armour and shields, and you don't get the crumpling wall of dead bodies that will smash a formation. We have little evidence of synchronised volleys being used in battle. Sources that use the term "volley" don't refer to synchronised shooting, and at best we have sources that describe something that might signal the beginning of shooting (in which the archers would likely all shoot together), but nothing that suggest that archers deliberately timed their shots to be synchronised. The true effect of massed archers is in _constant_ shooting. Descriptions of battles involving large numbers of archers (such as Agincourt) portray arrows as a "rain" or "storm". This description is more accurate if archers are all shooting at their own pace, naturally staggered as each man picks his own mark, draws and shoots as his condition allows him to. Not a wall of arrows every 10 seconds. The constant whizzing of arrows from continuous shooting will literally push the enemy formation back form the impact of the arrows. Volley shooting is a video game mechanic, not a real life one. The skirmish at Osgiliath would be a proper depiction of a small-unit battle - the Gondorians are scattered in defensive positions, there is no packed formation of archers that can coordinate their shooting, and they are not shooting at a massed unit on the other side of the river. Each archer is identifying their own target and shooting at their own pace. I don't see anything wrong with this scene from an archer's perspective. This is probably the best deployment of archers in this context, and would have more effective for suppression than volley shooting as a unit, since the targets would not know when and where the arrows will come. Likewise, the Uruk-hai don't need _volleys_ of crossbows to suppress the walls. They need _continuous_ missiles sweeping the walls. Volleys are _less_ effective at suppression because you have to slow down the rate of shooting so that men are loaded, which gives a bigger gap for the defenders to shoot back. I wouldn't call the long holds a military command blunder. That's just movies being dumb about how bows work. What _is_ a command blunder is Aragorn ordering a volley to be shot into the breach *while he is standing front of the archers.* That's a good way to get a dozen arrows in the back. That said, there's probably good reason for Aragorn to call a charge into the breach. Remember that only a small contingent of Elves at in this battle (and in book canon, there are none), they have already been loosing arrows from the wall, and Aragorn would probably not be confident that they had enough ammunition to continue suppressing the breach (in the book, Legolas - the only Elf at Helm's Deep - does in fact run out of arrows and fights with his long knives in this stage of the battle). In a page taken from Agincourt, the archers would have joined the melee to turn the tide.

[@vanillaicecream2385]

he orders the volley pass him due to how excellent elves are at shooting, seeing as they dont "die" they can train for however long they wish, its why when the old man kills the uruk-hai he responds in elvish since he assumes that well placed a shot MUST be from one of his elves

[@TheAchilles26]

One minor quibble: crossbows are not conducive to continuous fire and are very likely the origin of the volley fire later used by muskets

[@NUSensei]

@@TheAchilles26 I don't think so. The method of operation is quite different. Muskets have volley fire for several reasons, notably because of the extremely long reloads requiring the unit to hold their fire until the most effective point, in which a single volley can smash the opposing line; otherwise the entire unit is caught with ineffective trickles. Units were trained to load the complicated pieces "by the numbers", so every individual in the unit followed the drills consistently and under fire. The biggest difference, however, is that the musket was the standard weapon for line infantry, while crossbows were a specialised weapon used by auxiliary units against mixed cavalry and infantry with melee weapons and shields and/or armour. In contrast, crossbows were faster to load (depending on the weight and method of loading), and crossbow units often had assistants who had spare crossbows loaded, so the crossbowman could focus on picking their targets and shooting. It makes less sense for a crossbowman to wait for the entire unit to load when he had a loaded weapon that could bring down a target at will with another ready to go. Given the fewer numbers of crossbowmen in relation to the army, massed volleys would probably be just as unfeasible as with bows. The "continuous fire" I describe isn't a deliberate act, but simply that constant rain of shooting that naturally happens when combatants fire at will.

[@lokenontherange]

Also worth noting that archers don't tend to be as uniform in the bows they use, they don't tend to be uniform in the amount of arrows they can fire, they aren't uniform in how quickly they can fire, and they're not uniform in their ability to fire at distance. Having archers select targets as it suits them is just more practical.

[@jamoecw]

@@NUSensei musket volley fire has to do with the relatively flat trajectory and the inaccuracy of the line infantry. the irregulars (sharpshooters) which were accurate did not do volley fire. having arrows rain down at the furthest range means that if they miss their target then it hits the ground, with a flat trajectory if the shot misses then it might hit one of the people behind the front line guy. the smoke of muskets also make it hard to even pick out targets when everyone is densely packed, which is needed if the troops can't accurately hit a man sized target at range to begin with. of course most battles were not with infantry standing in front of each other like the movies portray, but had men using cover, and at that point they didn't use volley fire either.

[@GeraltofRivia22]

In the books, Gandalf is the one who suggests they go to Helm's Deep. The movies do a disservice to Theoden's character. He comes off as a bit arrogant and petty, which he absolutely is not in the books. The Urakai aren't there to raid Rohan, they're there to exterminate them. They will attack Helm's Deep because that's where the people are. The idea is to weaken the orcs and then defeat them, which they would not be able to do if they immediately attacked them in open battle, which already happened btw, the battle of Isen Ford where Theoden's son died.

[@11jerans]

He did say he wasn’t considering book sources and was focusing on the movie version only. But you’re right, the Two Towers film does a real disservice to my boy Theoden

[@GeraltofRivia22]

@@11jerans I know, but I think it makes the decision seem a lot more rational when it comes from Gandalf and not from Theoden being stubborn.

[@maximusd26]

haven't seen much of the books but Theoden is a true badass and a great poet

[@thorshammer7883]

@@11jerans He's just wanting to explain some good book details that is all. And how they differ a bit.

[@evannesbitt7852]

I feel like the film, thematically wants to set up Theoden's redemption in a wide arc, setting him up as an emotionally devastated monarch, out of touch and not thinking clearly to saving Minas Tirith from Mordor at Peleannor Fields is a cinematic climax fitting for the epic LOTR saga. But I agree it does unfortunately deviate from the source material

[@Benjamin1986980]

I know you said you wouldn't evaluate the motivations of the characters. However, I can say the reckless assault with no long-term plan does seem to justify Theoden's idea of sheltering while the orcs pillage. If he's expecting the orcs to turn on each other and the army discipline to break down and infighting to proceed within days, it makes sense. The army would literally start eating itself if they could just last a week

[@Mortablunt]

Basically as orcs do when there's shiny but no meat.

[@GeraltofRivia22]

In the book, it's Gandalf's idea and everyone is in agreement that it's a good idea. The orcs' goal isn't to pillage, it's to exterminate Rohan. They attack Helm's Deep because that's where the people are. The Rohirrim had absolutely no chance against the orcs in open battle. The point of going to Helm's Deep was to give them a fighting chance.

[@Benjamin1986980]

@@GeraltofRivia22 I have to agree. Meeting on the open field would only play into the Uruks numerical superiority

[@GeraltofRivia22]

@@Benjamin1986980 the Rohirrim actually already tried that and lost. Its almost entirely excluded from the movie, but the Rohirrim under Theoden's son met the orcs at the Battle of Isen Ford and lost, resulting in the death of Theoden's son. So trying to do it again with even less troops against even more orcs would be plains suicide.

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

The plan to wait out the Uruk-Hai army was not going to work, it would not have collapsed on itself. Normally they do but because Saruman commands them his "power" over them prevents that from happening in such a scale that the whole army would be wiped out by it. Saruman is not Sauron of course and so his "control" over his forces ain't to Sauron's level but he still can do it to some degree. The Dark Lord effect you could call it. It's kind of baked into Orcs since Morgoth- if you get what I mean?

[@akuinator6350]

Don't forget that these Uruk-hai were literally born within the last couple of weeks, and only armed within the last two. It is unreasonable to expect that they would have developed the ability to work in concert as experienced units might in that time. Frankly, it is a testament to Saruman's ability as a geneticist that they are able to use their equipment effectively at all, presumably acting mostly on the basis of instinct and ingrained magical programming. It is Saruman's fault that they were ordered to advance before having the chance to accumulate experience working in concert, and thus their failure to do so is a reflection on him and not them.

[@vanillaicecream2385]

and the pikes were meant for an open battle just in case the defenders of the hornberg rode out to meet them, the siege kit was to destory the wall because saruman predicted correctly they were holed up there

[@sprouts7768]

Lol now u mention it! Maybe he hit capacity and couldn't feed them any more so ordered them to march?

[@akuinator6350]

@@sprouts7768 Well we they didn't have nothing but maggoty bread for three stinking days, and hungry uruks tend to get a bit... rambunctious.

[@shinsenshogun900]

Saruman, as a warlock himself, is a bad opportune absent tactician

[@hanneswiggenhorn2023]

And on the same note, think Saruman sending them into battle this early is because he wanted to win quickly. If we look at the movies, his window of opportunity is thin, and he used it. He wanted to attack while Rohan was weakened, so he had to march out immediately after Gandalf came and freed Theoden because he didn't want to risk the Rohirim gathering in time and assisting the besieged, which is ironically how the siege ended

[@Gacin100]

At 26:26 you say that the wizards magic is what blinds the Uruk-Kai but it isnt. Its the sun rising behind the riders. During the previous scenes we can even see the light of the sun shining lower and lower into the valley until it reaches the first line of spearmen just before the riders crash into them. Which I would count as a tactical wise decision as Gandalf did plan to arrive at dawn from the beginning.

[@Benjamin1986980]

Gandalf's "cue the sun" powers of amazing timing were established way back in the Hobbit in the Troll scene.

[@Talyrion]

@@Benjamin1986980 "A wizard is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." Timing is one hell of a superpower.

[@christianholzschuh6853]

I always thought Gandalf used solar flare there...

[@reaemishi2278]

About the bows, I think a rather good explanation for the early draw is available. Aragorn is commanding their forces. However, Aragorn is used to fighting with Elves especially. Creatures with supernatural grace and stamina. In the Lord of the Rings books and movies elves really are never shown suffering from weather or things like muscle stress. They seem to be able to hold their bows back as if the drain on their stamina is trivial. They do so twice in the movies and once more in the books. Even though Aragorn is human, he is a different breed of human. A Dúnedain, a kind of people who intentionally breed themselves to have lives and powers more similar to that of elves. He simply might not fully comprehend the limits of his fellow more base humans.

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

It's more breeding to keep these abilities given to them by the valar rather than something created by breeding (which your comment implies, even if jot your intention)

[@reaemishi2278]

​@@matthiuskoenig3378 Second verse same as the first. When giving explanations of things people are not familiar with I delete unnecessary details like the valar and the loyalty regimes of different human factions blah blah blah. Like if I was going to explain the Trinity Blood's main character, I'm just going to say, basically a vampire not unlike Blade. Is that precisely true? No. Will you accurately understand his physical and mental characteristics based on that description? Yes. Clarity > Technical Accuracy.

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

@@reaemishi2278 I disagree, treating people like idiots, and worse giving them false information, is never the answer. But if want something without the valar? Just say they are preserving an existing difference. Simple while still accurate.

[@reaemishi2278]

​@@matthiuskoenig3378 It is not treating someone like an idiot to reduce the amount of information that is given when that information does nothing to advance the purpose of the communication. Does understanding the motivations of the political structures of that race further the recipient's understanding of that race's physical characteristics? The answer is no, they could be doing what they do for any reason, but their reasons are not relevant to their outcomes. What is important is that my explanation does not explicitly contradict anything in a more expansive investigation of the facts. It is important to remember that you are taking umbrage with a possible implication of something I said, not something I actually said. The only one I would treat "like an idiot" would be one who looks for subtext in technical writing. Your car's user manual does not have subtext, as my writing does not. Such things are meant to be read literally.

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

@@reaemishi2278 you claim you wanted clarity but the implication of what you said does not create clarity.

[@Darkdaej]

I believe movies do this stupid "hold" maneuver for two reasons. 1: Dramatic effect 2: Because they think of a bow like a gun and don't think about the actual effort required in using one.

[@adamjenkins7653]

A very common film/TV trope, resulting from the actors being handed what are essentially children's toys.

[@scuffedryangosling4264]

It's one of Hollywood's forgivable sins against reality.

[@victoriaamat5368]

Happy to be commenting this sort of content. Regarding the skirmish between the mounted troops: you made the point that the wargs are the most dangerous mount and yet they won the encounter (though barely). Conclusion: the Rohirrim are the most dangerous riders (and rider>mount). Also, Battle for Middle Earth 1 was an awesome game.

[@thekinginyellowmessiahofha6308]

The Rohirrim are well armored, and, using the little knowledge of the books I have, are the faction and setting equivalents to housecarls or knights, so they are well trained and brave warriors, riding strong horses, while the warg orcs are undisciplined and bloodthirsty brutes with no armor riding big wolves.

[@JackPhoenixCz]

@@thekinginyellowmessiahofha6308 Another thing about the Rohirrim in the skirmish is that unlike the orcs, they have ranged weapons (bows and throwing javelins) and know how to use them from the horseback, giving them another advantage.

[@Vikingr4Jesus5919]

27:10 The book actually depicts how Saruman had stored some secretive vats or furnaces that could erupt on his command. Basically, he had stored away fire-mines that would definitely burn wood very quickly, even that of an Ent.

[@sebastianhovenas272]

Our lord and saviour, hos most imperial majesty the KingEmperorPenguin has returned!

[@stevet1396]

About the uruk-hai. In the films they remarked on their incredible stamina. Also since they eat humans, marching them near starving to a fortress full of basically food. Would be a good way to ensure they try their hardest to get in.

[@sirshotty7689]

This and the siege of minis tirith are my favorite parts of the films. I love them so much and I can’t wait for the next video.

[@Tyranidus7]

As far as the pikes go, I think Saruman thought his army would fight whatever was left of the Rohan army which is mostly calvary out in the open field. When fighting calvary the pikes would be a lot better. The retreat into Helm’s Deep was a very late development that Saruman had to put together a bomb himself to try and get past the defenses. Saruman had Theodin under mind control, he could have been planning to have the Rohirrum army go into a trap with an army perfectly matched to counter them. But now the army has to put together a very quick plan to siege the fortress.

[@jameslockhart4507]

In defense of the Osgiliath scene at 26:44 is is clear that the city is not just some field or regular siege like Helms Deep and is more akin to urban warfare, due to how you can see arrows whizz past the screen the Gondorians are also being shot back at so perhaps taking cover is more favourable to fighting in formations and doing volleys?

[@ToddTheTolerable]

Great video! I'll defend the film's logic as best I can because I love it too much so max copium ahead: Theoden's decision to go to Helm's Deep is a sound one, as it seems like Isengard is already prepped for war while Rohan hasn't even begun to marshal its forces, save for Eomer. It also forces the Uruk-Hai to expend their superior numbers attacking a fortified position, one that is at the end of a narrow valley no less. Its position makes it a death trap for the attackers should any relief force arrive. Indeed in the books going to Helm's Deep is Gandalf's idea for this very reason. Theoden's only mistake is not sending out riders to marshal his own relief force while he hid, as he was able to assemble 6000 riders in the next film at relative speed. Assuming the enemy would raid and then leave might be sound if the enemy came all the way from Mordor, but Isengard is so close that they're not going to go away any time soon. The Dunlendings are absolutely going to settle the lands because they used to live there. But Theoden only says these things to bolster his men's morale. Sending riders to Gondor would be a waste of time because Gondor if anything is expecting Rohirrim relief armies, not the other way around. Even if they could send a large army to exterminate Isengard it would take far too long to assemble and get there. Aragorn's been smoking too much longbottom leaf if he's even suggesting this. The elves are from Lothlorien which is actually quite close to Rohan. Positioning them separately from the men avoids confusion between their commanders, and the elves are essentially on a suicide mission so they take the more vulnerable spot. I believe the Uruk-Hai attacking immediately is also in the books. They don't seem to want to wait and rest and are trying to speedrun the seige. Perhaps they are aware of how delicate their position is and how undersupplied they are. It is worth noting that Saruman cut many corners to assemble his army as quickly as he did, and that Sauron's army in the next one (at least in the books) planned their advance, encampment, strategies, and logistics much better. Additionally in the book Saruman believes there is a decent chance the One Ring is in Theoden's hands so he's in a rush to try and take it. But in the film he doesn't seem to dwell too much on losing Merry and Pippin so make of that what you will. The Uruk-Hai assumedly brought so many pikes in the event that the Rohirrim met them in the open field, where they could be used against cavalry. However in the siege there shouldn't be any pikemen anywhere close to the walls where they can't participate. They should be closer to the back in case a relief force arrives. The only time the pikes would be useful is potentially in fighting over the gatehouse, where a phalanx could push the clustered defenders back and allow space for the attackers to enter relatively uncontested. But wouldn't you know it this does not occur. Aragorn commanded his troops to charge to try to contain the breach in the walls. He only seems to take half his force with him, but we don't see any volleys from the remaining half. It should be noted that the stairs leading up to the fortress are close to the walls, so if the Uruk-Hai are allowed in even under repeated volleys the defenders wouldn't be able to escape. The main criticism is Aragorn absolutely should've ordered a general retreat at once; Theoden shouldn't have had to tell him to do so. Aragorn and Gilmi's heroics at the causeway are sound as such a narrow space permits them to fight so many. However Theoden allows them no means of escape. Additionally the repairs he makes to the door basically do nothing, as he gives up the gatehouse right after they are made. If an arrow can break the super-siege ladders then assumedly a sword swipe to the ropes on the hooks should also do the trick. The design seems deeply flawed but if they made Theoden abandon the gatehouse then I suppose they did their job. In the books the horn is terribly loud and disrupts the enemy for the charge to take place. It doesn't seem to bother the enemy much in the film so it's surprising the charge works at all. Not even one shot of the Uruks covering their ears? Lastly although the enemy is scattered by Eomer's riders the Hornburg itself (unsuitable for cavalry) is still filled to the brim with Uruk-Hai so it seems like clearing all of them out would be a very long and bloody task, unless they surrendered or something. Maybe they bartered passage in exchange for not butchering all the women and children still in the fortress that they had control over :) As for flaws in the design of the Hornburg, eh it's a terribly old fort so it's fine.

[@sebastianhovenas272]

Dude, Lothlorien is not close to Rohan, like at all, especially to the Hornburg

[@John-fk2ky]

@@sebastianhovenas272 that’s not what he said. He said that the elves as a separate unit in the battle aren’t that far separated from the men defending the higher walls and the main gate.

[@jaytucker7873]

Minor nitpick, the Uruk Hai carrying pikes makes perfect sense through a country known for its cavalry. Since they don't have a camp set up, what are they going to do with those pikes once you get to Helms Deep? You're gonna hold onto it till you have to go up the ladder!

[@ForgeofAule]

The Uruk-Hai having pikes would have been a very fair move by Saruman. Rohan was known for its horsemen and as Gandalf was with them, he would have almost certainly expected for them to attack his forces before they reached the Deeping.

[@Don-ds3dy]

I think a lot of the flaws in the Rohirrum's strategies have to do with the fact they're mostly a cavalry based military, and the Uruk-hai are rather young and inexperienced with logistics (who hasn't taken control of a large army in a videogame just to find out how important and difficult logi is?) and as wise and old as Saruman is I don't think he's every lead whole massive armies before and I also don't think he values the lives of orcs.

[@alduintheanti-dragonborn]

About the food problem with the Uruk-Hai army, I do believe earlier in the film there was a line "Looks like meat's back on the menu boys!" said who I think was an Uruk-Hai, before they all started to cannibalize on each other.

[@fabiusbilerouge]

The extra troops standing around the ballista are there to pull the ropes and raise the main ladders.

[@deadponic117]

to be fair about a few things -Theoden did order a watch on the surround and was focused on prepare the defenses. -Gondor was dealing with the attack on Osgiliath, and it doesnt help that they were under the rule of Denethor who is a whole 'nother can of worms -By fleeing to helms deep, Theoden was forcing the enemy to come to him, thereby dictating the terms of the battle, which gave them an advantage, if only small.

[@thorshammer7883]

I am glad to see you back again this was another great video and analysis with good humor. On to the castle of Helm's Deep itself it has alot of design flaws and wasted defending potential as pointed by other KZbinrs like Shadiversity and many others when you look it up. Helm's Deep's designs could have been alot better and made into a real efficient defending fortress then the too simple depiction design in the films. When it comes to tactics, strategies, and the circumstances surrounding military decisions of the war by the leaders I think JRR Tolkien had a higher level of extensive knowledge when it came to setting up the battles that would take center stage in his narrative. For instance there is alot more higher intelligent decisions made by Theoden and Saruman when it came to dividing and setting up forces and having external fortifications established. I still like the movie battle but book commanders make alot more reserve and strategic decisions and the reasoning circumstances surrounding them. Like the battle at the river and the external fortifications at Helm's Deep. If I may divert the topic of Helm's Deep to my analysis of Return of the King book's setting circumstances. The battle of Minas Tirith in films has a bit more set up but it's not as concrete as the book version of the siege. In the book seige Sauron's commanders actually make some pretty logical average decisions like securing the roads to Minas Tirith and sending smaller armies to garrison the flanks of the main seige and preventing immediate reinforcements and counter attacks to aid the city. Though I would say one problem Sauron doesn't do is that he didn't expand the front lines just a bit more due to how many reserves he really had. The seige alone is hinted that there were about almost a hundred thousand present on Sauron's side comprised of orcs, uruks, easternlings, harad, and maybe even some of his higher rank agents and servants like the Black Numenoreans were present managing the grand assembled host. The siege lasted three days and in my perspective I think this host may have been centralized into a single region just a bit too much. I would have adviced dividing forces a bit more and dragging the siege to paralyze the kingdom of Gondor and Rohan's ability to retaliate then just securing the flanks and roads. Don't get me wrong the strategic decisions made in the book are far superior then the movie's but pretty average tactics to a regular logistical military commander. There could have been more potential with the amount of resources Sauron's forces had compared to Gondor's at this time. The Corsair's raids on Gondor's ports were smart but their could have been more they could have been done to make it even more severe. Lore of the Rings did great presenting the battle tactics and describing the setting circumstances leading up to the battles themselves. Check him out he's very good. By the way 13:20 was very hilarious and true of what would likely take affect as a long term consequence.

[@sebastianhovenas272]

Well according to Darth Gandalf the Mordor army directly assaulting Minas Tirith was about 60,000 strong (though this is by know means canon, just an edjucated guess by him). His reasoning was that since the mordor armies were defeated by the much smaller (yet not small) forces of the west then the army woulden't be overwhealmingly large, though 60,000 is still a lot

[@thorshammer7883]

@@sebastianhovenas272 I remember that though it's been a while since I last watched that video. The wiki I researched on recently seemed to claim there was over 70,000 orcs and 20,000 men on Sauron's side. Though I believe Gondor's numbers are far too small.

[@GameCommandos14]

Saruman the White's greatest weakness: Logistics.

[@jeremiahthompson9367]

The loss of the ability to shoot projectiles in a downpour would hurt the defenders far more than the attackers. Also, I get the feeling that Huruk-ai don't get sick, so attacking in the rain would only hurt the humans, so even if the initial assault was repulsed, more humans would get sick and the siege could be concluded more quickly.

[@realityquotient7699]

It must be pointed out that Saruman being quite a long way around the bend from sane by that time is fairly well established. Military problems generally begin at the top and filter down, as in so many other areas of life.

[@jcdf2]

The battle of Helm's Deep took place during a rainy night for cinematic reasons. The darkness makes the orc army look more threatening. They are some what chaotically arranged to reinforce their villainy.

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

Orcs attacked at night in the books too. Remember orcs and uruks have better night vision than humans. The rain is just happenstance in universe. But meta wise helps set the mood.

[@nozrep]

i had no idea that ancient war horses or medieval war horse to trained to also kick, trample, and bite. Fascinating! Makes sense. I wonder if there is a standalone history video about ancient or medieval war horses talking about all that?

[@painlord2k]

The Siege of Candia lasted just 21 years. Logistics is pretty important in sieges.

[@thomasmann4536]

About foraging: There is a great account from the Russian-Polish wars in the 17th century, where a polish army of about 17.000 troops besieged Novgorod for almost 3 months, and a company of light polish cavalry was tasked with foraging to provide food for the army. During the second and third month, they foraged in areas as much as 200 miles away from Novgorod, but they actually did manage to keep the entire army fed.

[@babaschwein4308]

Since orcs are not very selective when it comes to food, my guess is their provisions would have been replenished by the corpses of men and orcs slain in battle, aswell as any captured people. I could even imagine the orcs were kept hungry deliberately to make them more bloodthirsty (Uruks aren't human and are quite sturdy from what I remember, so they might not be affected in the same way by hunger as we are).

[@240Ldemon]

Just throwing it out there, a video breaking down the book's version of the battle would be very interesting. Especially as a contrast to the films version.

[@joem1480]

The Wargs are also supported to be intelligent as well, making them even more dangerous

[@Akeche]

Obviously the video is based on the movies, but for sure after reading the books and experiencing the events on a more first-hand role thanks to Lord of the Rings Online it definitely felt strange some of the choices they made. Théoden DID rally his forces, but Eeomer and the forces of several other large houses were fighting on the western front and needed to be called back. You definitely get a better sense of scale of things as you progress deeper through the Riddermark, helping to fight a losing battle as each major house fails in protecting their own lands and must retreat to Edoras. The SCALE of Edoras is also, in my opinion, shamefully done in the movies after experiencing it differently. It looks like a small hilltop hovel compared to the large and open city with a massive Hall sitting at its hilltop.

[@Kackpuh]

Some corrections: The dark rainy clouds come with the Orks, because they don't like the sunlight. The Uruk-hai have less problems with that (they can be in the sunlight at all without cowering in fear) but are still hindered by it, which is shown when the riders attack (they aren't only blinded by the light, they have a more visceral reaction to it, thus losing pretty much all effectiveness with the lances/pikes/halberds they use). That is a consistent thing with Tolkien (even though it is not explained here, but shown and sometimes talked about in the films). The siege went on for more than one day, you just can't see the passing of one day because of the dark clouds, Gandalf arrived at the first light of the FIFTH morning. The Rohirrim pretty much at no point in time use longbows. They are very clearly and pretty much always shown to use shorter rider bows (like what the Mongols, Huns or Hungarians used). Those are completely different to what an english longbow is. Actually only the Elves and Dunedain are shown to wield something that is a longbow, but that doesn't mean it must be an english one. The elves are shown to be able to hit the weak spots of the armour, for them it's simply a fact of knowing where to shoot, they will hit. That's why Legolas tells the other elves around him where to shoot, he has more experience with the Uruk-hai. And yes, Theodens decisions lack all the information that is given in the book and looks a lot more foolish in the films, but in the end was the right decision, because there is no way they would have defeated that Uruk-hai army in the open field.

[@Kackpuh]

One important thing I forgot: Most if not all things Theoden publicly said was purely to raise the morale of his men and give them some hope. He knows the situation better than anyone advising him but needs to show his men that hey can win this fight, even though he is sure they won't. You can see it in all of his interactions.

[@theterrorofdimensions1326]

Actually, in regards to the pikes, they have them for two reasons: they were expecting to fight cavalry on the way to Helm's Deep, and if you look closely in some scenes, they use the unique way the spearpoints are designed to actually assist in pushing the ladders upwards. However, beyond that, I do agree that the pikes would largely be useless up until the walls of the keep are breached.

[@dupeesfashionconsultant4204]

I did give a critique on the volley fire but I dont want to make it sound like I disapproved of the whole video. It was one tiny point but I dont want it to get confused, I loved this video! As I do all of your videos and have agreed with probably all your other points in all your critiques. You clearly know what your talking about and always have the notifications on for this channel

[@clydemarshall8095]

You’re one of my favorites KEP. Keep up the good work.

[@GnarledStaff]

In fairness to Theoden, it is possible he sent out scouts but they didn't survive to return... or were incompetent. (Doubtful but possible). Maybe the wargs got em?

[@nilious]

A New Video? Great! Hope you and everyone reading has a great Day!

[@leathandris6734]

One assumption here that is erronus is that loses on the Ukuk side matter nearly as much as on the human side. Isengard committed as many troops to this one assault as the whole of Rohan was able to muster in Return of the King. Ork armies can replace troops at such a fast rate they afford to take disproportionate loses. This army only needs to win this battle. The next army can win the next one. This is basically what we see in Gondor wherein their forces are worn down over decades while the orcs just out breed them.

[@deaks25]

My take on the blowing up the wall while your own troops are there; orcs, even Uruk-Hai are fairly disposable; they receive only basic armour and training but are every effective against Men because they are practically wild animals with swords and armour; they make up for the lack of skill with brute strength and an element of psychological warfare, and the action of blowing up the wall is put of that same psychological tactic. The Uruk-Hai far outnumber the defenders so equal number of losses is a much smaller percentage of the overall force, but more importantly it's the message it sends; the Uruk-Hai will blow up it's own troops to breach the walls, and if they'll be that reckless with the lives of their own troops just to get inside the fortress, what will they do to the defenders and civilians inside... by killing a few hundred Uruk-Hai they can almost break the defenders morale (And we do see this as well). You also stoke the blood-lust of the Uruk-Hai; they see they have breached the wall, and so will be far more enthusiastic to get inside to fight, and quickly swarm the remaining defenders, which is probably where Orc armies are most effective.

[@DKforever24]

I think the reason so many Uruk-hai have pikes is because Saruman assumed he would be fighting a large amount of Rohirrim on an open battlefield, with pikes, in a phalanx formation, is usually a good counter to cavalry. After learning Theoden marched to Helms Deep for protection, Saruman must have thought that he could destroy Rohan in one battle. Also, with how quickly it took Saruman to build an army of 10,000 Uruks, he probably didn't care how many casualties it took to defeat Rohan since he probably didn't even see the Uruks as people, just tools to help him obtain the One Ring.

[@Diamond88Pictures]

Amazing Breakdown. Very refreshing to hear your opinions on these battles. I learned a lot

[@charlessmith9903]

"Hes acting like the captain of the Titanic" I had to chuckle a little cause it's the same actor.

[@ferrishthefish]

13:34 Elves move very quickly on foot. In Rings of Power (which Twitter reliably informs me is the most Tolkien thing ever), Celebrimbor walks from Eregion to Khazad-Dum and back in what seems like a leisurely afternoon stroll. Doesn't even bother to change out of his fancy clothes or bring a snack for the road. Now imagine what properly-equipped Elvish soldiers marching to battle at full speed could accomplish, it's no surprise they can show up at a moment's notice.

[@millitron3666]

The Uruks are on a tight schedule; if they set up camp, build pavises, dig tunnels, that will use up precious time they don't have. They're likely aware that Rohhirrim companies like Eomer's could show up at any time. The assault has to happen now or never.

[@dupeesfashionconsultant4204]

Volleys weren't used that way. There would be archers who couldn't shoot that fast and tired out and archers who could shoot faster but have to slow down for the rest of the unit. They were done in a fire at will type volley

[@lastsoldier4524]

With all due respect your Imperial Majesty the Uruks bringing pikes actually makes sense given that the Rohirm are largely a cavalry based army.

[@TanitEB]

The lack of logistics almost makes sense, Saruman might know nothing about how armies work as this is his first one. Previously he only had small raiding forces like the one led by Lurtz. As for other siege movies, it's obviously not nearly as good, but I enjoyed the siege at the end of Jack the Giantslayer and would be amused to hear your take.

[@mylex817]

as for the lack of logistics, it also makes sense if you consider that Saruman did not really expect a battle. He expected his troops to quickly massacre the remaining Rohirrim. At this stage in the story, Saruman likely already had his eyes set on his next targets: - Attacking Gondor while it was preoccupied with Mordor to find the ring - using the ring and his control over Gondor and Rohan to challenge Sauron Ultimately Saruman just underestimated Rohan, and did not foresee the unlikely alliance with the Ents.

[@zzodysseuszz]

Uruk hai are not men. They’re not even normal orcs. They’re superhuman. They’re extremely durable and strong, marching for days isn’t that difficult of a task for them. They were magically created after all

[@theamorphousflatsch2699]

So the thing about the orks and uruk in Lotr is that they are essentially all a last ditch effort for sauron to win. If you look at the context, uruk and orks eat humans for the most part, so raising a massive host that you can't feed makes only sense when there is prospect of a lot of humans being somewhere close (gondor and rohan) so saruman raised a massive army in the hopes they could feed themselves by eating the inhabitants of the human realms.

[@dragonstryk7280]

To an extent, the Uruk Hai tactics were solid. I mean, when you come down to it, they were marching on a fortress manned by only 300 men. They invested in Pikes expecting the Rides of Rohan, and they were not trying to fight a long campaign in Rohan. The goal was extermination, not conquest. With the addition of the elven archers, and especially the flank of the Rohirrim with Gandalf, there were factors in the fight they could not have accounted for. As to rations.... they're cannibals. Their dead are the food. ("Meat's back on the menu, boys!" -The Two Towers)

[@reeceemms1643]

this is my favorite battle thought the whole LOTR trilogy, I don't know why, probably because the battle of Helm's Deep is an epic siege battle

[@manuelcheeser8935]

How does this not get more views? This was great entertainment!

[@christianholzschuh6853]

I like the rohan horses. They are strong enough to charge through hundreds of orcs without getting even slowed down, yet so fragile that a single hit by an arrow can kill them.

[@HeWhoShams]

26:17 Are we not going to comment on the incline of that hill and how those horses would not be able to fully gallop down it without tumbling? How does everyone miss this?

[@ragnarthorson2066]

in the uruk hai's defence they are only a few weeks old. saruman is a wizard not a military leader, and tells them that they will have man flesh to eat. and if you are invading a country of horses then pikes are a good idea.

[@Volcarion]

The orks and uruks may have had supply wagons together them into Rohan, and then ditched them when they got into Rohan. And since they aren't picky as to where their meat comes from, they may have ransacked a village and consumed the civilian victims and their own fallen as they went.

[@davidkinsey8657]

The boys will throw rocks from the wall down onto the Uruk Hai. They are shown doing this in the film. In the ent attack on Isengard, the only ent that catches fire appears to be some sort of pine or fir which would have flammable sap. This catches fire first and is extinguished by the flood before much damage is inflicted upon the living wood.

[@SNWWRNNG]

Sheltering in Helm's Deep works because the army of Isengard is basically forced to siege it - if they just moved past it, the Rohirrim could use their cavalry to raid Isengard's supply lines; and there's likely not a lot of supply to forage left in Rohan's western countryside, given that it has been raided before and people have fled. Splitting up the army would risk a defeat in detail, and so going for Helm's Deep makes a lot of sense. Forgetting Eomer's army is stupid in any case, but that's a problem the movies invented by differing from the books. Brett Deveraux (a military historian) wrote a lot about the Siege of Helm's Deep on his blog ACOUP, I can only recommend checking his blog series out. There's a lot of depth and complexity to this that (very understandably) is not covered here.

[@mikemcghin5394]

and with the rain at the siege of helm deep the mud will be passchendaele levels of horrific

[@kingemperorpenguin1]

Indeed. Although to be fair, it seems like the ground directly outside Helm's Deep is mostly gravel.

[@mikemcghin5394]

@@kingemperorpenguin1 tht mass of pike um men reminds me of a 400 yard patch of gravel at Paris Island when I was there turned into a quagmire when the 2 blocks men in full kit head of my block went through it. And pike men blocks in the 15 and 1600 didn't fight in the rain or right after it rained or at least they didn't in the battles I have read about them

[@Kage_1831]

what do you mean there is no food? there are a bunch of tasty elves and men on those walls! not to mention, you have soldiers to spare considering its 3300 vs 10000. As an Uruk, you aren't very picky :P...unless you've had nuthin' but maggo'y bread fir three stickin' days!

[@Enubatan]

To be fair if one is a cannibal you always have food with your army

[@phattadontungtrongsit4137]

If I remember correctly it said in the book that the Uruk-Hai are made to be smarter and tougher orcs and that they can match for days without tiring.

[@ls93780]

To be fair, in the books it is heavily implied that Saruman, and by extension the Uruk-Hai and Dunlendings are incompetent at warfare. The Witch King in the Return of the King book is portrayed as being much more competent if you know what you’re looking for. For example in the books the Witch King makes an effort to cut the roads to Minas Tirith particularly in the North from Rohan. With a secondary orc army capturing Cair Androst on the north, and barricading the main roads from Rohan, with Theoden only able to arrive in time by taking secret backroads with local guides.

[@aircraftcarrierwo-class]

While the ent did get lit aflame remarkably quickly, all it seemed to do was draw aggro. You can see he survived and extinguished himself later on in the battle. We may just be looking at a quirk of Ents. It's possible that Ent bark may be quite flammable, but the interior wood is not (being wet with sap) and it would take a very long time for a living and moving ent to actually burn to death.

[@SPQR2755]

Helm's Deep is a badly designed fortress in the movie - 1: There is a culvert right in the middle of the wall. The wall is too low and is made worse by having no ditch immediately in front of it (which could be filled with water), 3: There is no inner defence behind the wall. 4:The ramp to the main tower gate is straight and of only moderate slope. 5: The gate in the tower is weakly built and quickly require ad hoc reinforcement after a few hits with the ram. 6: There is no provision for defending artillery.

[@grandadmiralzaarin4962]

I mean to be fair...the Uruk Hai are all less than a year old...so for infants they do fairly well all things considered.

[@stevencolor3389]

I am glad to see you covered this battle finally. There are some things I agree on and some things I disagree. I disagree with crossbow mass volleys for 2 reasons: 1: Bows reload faster than crossbows, allowing for uncontested volleys from the defenders inbetween crossbow volleys, also increases the chances the enemy will take cover and not get hit. 2: Massed crossbow fire will increase instances of multihits, with fire at will some are shooting while others are still loading and therefore can't hit the same target twice The massed troops is a good idea, having them around in a world where arrows won't go through 1 target and hit the guy behind them these guys provide consealment, making important soldiers hard to see in the swarm and cover, absorbing arrows meant for the engineers/ladder bearers. The pikes I half agree, in the climb they would be worthless but could be decent if the sappers destroy the wall as their long reach would allow them to attack anybody running to plug the gap and potentially create a foothold in the breach for others to enter. The rain I agree, rain would make climbing ladders harder due to it being slippery, make the ground harder to advance on as it turns to mud, make explosives harder to ignite, only defense for that is as you said the weakened string, given that 25+% of the garrison being Elves, known for archery more so than their melee skills that could really weaken the defenders.

[@mstash5]

There's a brief scene shown of an Elf being run through by an Uruk's pike when Aragorn leads the charge into the breach.

[@tSp289]

I think the answer to all of these issues is "Jackson's mistake, not Tolkien's". Hardly surprising since Tolkien was a veteran (and junior officer) of WWI while Jackson was a veteran of some campy zombie movies. To elaborate (from memory): - Nearly all the superhero stuff was not in the books. Just extremely competent fighting. - Theoden DID summon his forces, he just knew they wouldn't arrive in time to support him so retreated to Helm's Deep to be able to survive long enough be reinforced, and to give them a huge defensive advantage that would whittle down the attacking forces more than meeting them in the open field. - Yes, the Dunlendings wouldn't have left, especially as Rohan was land stolen off them in the first place. They (except maybe the ones who bred with orcs for him) were not evil people, but Saruman used their historic resentment and presumably the promise of their lands back to get them to fight. - The Rohirrim did have outriders and scouts. - It wasn't elves who arrived at Helm's Deep, it was the Dunedain (Strider's rangers), accompanied by Elrond's sons, and they'd been riding non-stop to keep ahead of the horde. - Pretty sure Saruman had the logistics sorted, as he had been planning this for decades. There's also the possibility he was expecting the Uruks to supplement their supplies with corpses, of which there would be no short supply after the battle broke. They were expendable troops after all. - Someone was leading the Uruks. Strider went out to parlay with them at one point. I'd presume he was talking to an 'officer' of theirs. - On bows, yeah. I grew up doing archery. Honestly holding even a 40lb bow for more than a couple of seconds hurts your fingers and your muscles. Holding makes zero sense. They'd be circulating, one person shoots, steps aside/back/away for the next one, rnocking another arrow as he does, waits his turn, steps up, draws and shoot in nearly one motion, repeats. That way you have a continuous stream of arrows. I think Jackson was thinking of musket volley tactics. You also don't 'fire' a bow. Fire's not involved in the process. - In the books there is an outer dike that only starts to be breached once it's filled with the dead, so maybe the mass meatshield tactic did get carried across. - Pikes make sense since they were going against cavalry, though they probably would have ditched them once they saw the height of the wall. - Never mind charing onto pikes, have you ever tried to take a horse down a hill like that? There's only one way to do it: fucking carefully. Let the horse pick its own way down (ideally by a different, less steep path) and zig zag all the way You'd still be lucky to get to the bottom in 20 minutes withoug triggering a landslide. If you try to charge down that kind of slope: one of two things will happen: 1) The horse will refuse and then either retreat or panic and run/buck you off if you keep telling it to do something so stupid or 2) It will try, and it will fall. The one behind it will fall on top of it. Legs will get broken, riders will get squashed. Those near the rear of the charge with the sense to stop will not be hungry again for weeks.

[@drachefly]

One big complaint I had is that throughout the series, it seems like gates are nearly useless. There are no arrow slits, no murder holes. It's not a biased barrier… it's just a barrier.

[@therealestmedel5337]

I’ve been looking forward to this

[@dgthunderer]

Regarding the rain matter at 14:00 I think it actually does make sense for the Uruk-hai to attack now because they force those conditions upon their foes. I doubt Uruk-Hai can get sick, but the soldiers on the wall sure can. Also while the Uruk-Hai certainly do have crossbows, but it doesn't seem like they have a lot and the rain is going to hurt the elves and Rohirim archers much more.

[@robhaldane3347]

If you look at a series of historic battles through history as late as the 1800’s you’ll find reasonably similar tactics and successes in storming fortresses, there is no siege at all taking place, or intended as you point out without any siege wagons. They don’t pause for a second of siege, it’s an immediate storming intent. The immediate assault and chaos is completely expected given the size difference in forces and a lack of empathy on orc generals, and your thought of organization under a night assault on a fortress while taking causulties from the fort would be utterly insane in practice. In the scenes proceeding the army looks in good decisions and tactical order, to expect them to maintain that under the assault is again unrealistic to the extreme. From an explosion standpoint, you are ignoring that no orc apart from those involved had any concept of the explosion and the causes, they only had a desperate implanted duty to storm the fortress, so it actually makes perfect sense they would keep going and immediately fill that gap. Humans would do the same and did throughout history in the face of huge breach explosions. Callousness on the part of the generals is a different story. You make some legitimate points, but your overall commentary would have been better focused on hot little attention was given to the ladders, positioning best archers out away from main fort, how little work was done to re-enforce or block up main door and ramp to it, etc. Oh yeah and until like 1850 in Europe, and other parts of the world army’s of like 30k+ were send into the filed with basically zero supplies beyond what they carried and were expected to sleep on the ground and forge as they went check out how the French army’s managed from like 1790 onward if you want a great example of this. Can’t afford to support or feed your troops, send them out at Austria and tell them it’s on them to feed and pay themselves, and again those are humans. The idea a orc army would have even halfway modern supply logisticss completely unrealistic in your expectation, not this films depiction.

[@banteringboomer4280]

one small thing regarding the pikes....Saruman knows the Rohirim are predominantly mobile horseback army and he was prepared to fight on open ground against cavalry... he likely did not have time to rearm his army and his troops are expendable so press the advantage having them locked into a place of no escape... remember also he is in a race with Sauron to conquer... war will never be waged perfectly and things often dont go to plan...

[@grantharriman284]

I am by no means an expert on medieval archery tactics, but I would think that free loosing would maximize the rate of fire and possibly improve the aim of each individual shot, so would maximize the raw number of casualties, while volley fire would maximize the number of casualties in one brief moment, which maximizes the psychological and organizational impact on the enemy to blunt a charge or disrupt a formation. If half your formation gets wounded at the same time it is more difficult to reorganize and continue a charge than if they get wounded one at a time. With that in mind the archers you mention at the end seem to be firing over some body of water, so there is no close combat maneuvering imminent that they would be looking to disrupt, thus producing raw casualties would be the focus, and free loosing would be the most efficient.

[@AverageWTPilot]

They couldn't ask Gondor for help, it was many days ride out to Minas Tirith, they possibly could have ignited the beacons, but it would take a day or more to get a rider out to the beacons because from Rohan's Side they start from the mountain tops which is hard to get to.

[@VandyMan84LA]

I just gotta say that I played BFME 1 so many times I figured out how to play the Battle of the Hornburg without having the wall breached...only did that a couple times though.

[@timothywilliams2252]

Going by the film, strictly, I can see Saruman's strategy of not just raiding the villages with his forces, after all, he has Sauron breathing down his neck because the ultimate target is Gondor. So, Rohan has to be taken down quickly. You begin with the raids to force a reaction from Theoden to retreat to Helm's Deep, so he could cut off the head of the snake instead of starting with the tail-end. Assuming that Saruman knows the history of his enemy, this is predictable. However, neither side prepared for a siege. You mentioned this on the Saruman-side, but those that fled to Helm's Deep could not have carried the necessary food and supplies needed for this kind of warfare. Theoden should have had heavily guarded supply trains sent to this fortress weeks beforehand, so the civilians seeking refuge don't starve to death. A good example of this is Julius Caesar's siege of Alesia in Gaul.

[@mithrawnudo2152]

If the Uruk-hai were designed to counter Rohan on the battlefield, it would make sense that they would be pikemen, as Rohan's cavalry is formidable and a majority of their military force. As there is no baggage train, perhaps they couldn't take alternate weapons.

[@lordinquisitordunn336]

Excellent video your majesty, glad to see these videos!

[@divicospower9112]

So true! One detail that I love. All the elves have helmets... except for their boss. He is the most important character of them but he doesn't deserve this protection. And let's be honest, the final charge is ridiculous. It makes no sense. Look at this cliff! Horses would break their legs and the uruk-hai would break the charge. No sense. Even when I was 13 I understood that.

[@hades_deathgod9496]

I see in the comment people saying the pikes were meant for the open battle vs Rohan, and while that may be true, no one seems to be bringing up the fact that they used the pikes to help push the ladders on the wall, and pikes historically have been very effective at deflecting arrows, especially when held up like they are, in the sea of Uruks, not a lot of arrows are going to be hitting the back since they’ll be hitting the pikes

[@call_sign_Nomad]

Great Video, and I'll be sure to check out your Family books. The volume seems a little off though. The KZbin ads nearly blew my ear drumbs! cheers

[@89Keith]

As for logistics, might have a solution, the orks aren't averse to cannibalism, and even if things go well there was bound to be a lot of casualties attacking a fortification providing a steady stream of food for the army. Once the fortification are broke and the fighting ends the women and children would make good rations until the orks returned to Isengard

[@jamiejamie9549]

Any military historian or anyone with archery experience would tell you that volley fire with archers is pointless. Its much more effective and efficient to free fire. Difderent archers will having varying strengths or accuracy and forcing people to hold their bolstering decreases accuracy and tires the archer out quicker. It's better to just give the order to release when the enemies are in range, then command to change targets, focus or cease as and when.

[@Razzlion]

I think the reason the uruks have pikes is because Saruman was expecting theoden to meet him in the field and pikes would do wonders against horses.. It does not make sense in the movies, but it does in the books.

[@kingemperorpenguin1]

It still does nothing to explain why they didn't ditch the pikes when they started sieging and deploying the ladders.

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

'and pikes would do wonders against horses' flase. Pikes were actually alot less effective against cavalry than modern people suppose. Especially well trained cavalry. Renaissance manuals heavily stress that pike units are *Vulnerable* to cavalry in all but the dencist immobile formations which make them vulnerable to missile weapons and melee infantry. Furthermore even these dense formations could be charged and broken frontally by well trained cavalry in tight formations (see for example the french-Italian wars). And that is before we account for the slow, unwieldy nature of the formations of pikes making them vulnerable to being out flanked or haveing their supply lines cut.

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

See for example many battles in the 30nyears war where cavalry simply moved around the pikes and broke them by hitting a flank. Pike need something to protect them from missile troops and flankers, aswell as break up fight cavalry formaitons. Historically this was done with javelin infantry or halberd/sword infantry or crossbow/gunpowder infantry (or se combination of the three) and such support troops were considered vital to the success of pike. Things the uruks don't really have in large enough numbers to protect their large force of pikes.

[@mstash5]

@@matthiuskoenig3378 the Uruks definitely had enough sword infantry and at least some crossbowmen for protection.

[@jensphiliphohmann1876]

24:34: It doesn't seem to take bullets from firearm; I recently saw a vid about a modern bow which can provide the arrow with significantly more power than the best historical ones - enough to penetrate normal medieval armour.

[@beayn]

On the food issue - perhaps they simply eat their enemies or even their own dead? They did say they would eat the Hobbits, so it's not outside the realm of possibility. Orcs who don't need supplies and simply eat their fallen soldiers or enemies would have some advantage wouldn't they?

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

Pretty much eat anyone they can, Orc 101 that is in LOTR. And likely Saruman sent them there with the orders to attack as soon as they can, in fact in his speech he pretty much states that. Be it done in much more grand words.

[@svagglaorde4387]

Saruman probably put something that can stave off hunger in these Urukhai during their breeding process?

[@mstash5]

@@svagglaorde4387 a more likely explanation is that the Uruks had carts of food with them which just aren't shown on screen. They're at the back of the army, probably.

[@mikkelnpetersen]

I think the wargs are the perfect hit-and-run mounts, fast and more nimble than horses, able to traverse rough terrain better, so it looks to me like they would be perfect for deep strike harrasment of enemy supply lines and quick raiding on villages, forcing the enemy to divert forces to protect its lands behind the frontline. and if the riders die the mounts would still be a danger. I always think the same about most fantasy universes where there's fx. goblins riding wolves.

[@stalinsghost1090]

Leave it to the limey to suggest lining up in a queue

[@melmartinez7002]

Another film that has pretty impressive 'siege' theatrics is Red Cliff, directed by John Woo. Very epic.

[@josebatxu32]

It was actually not magic that made them raise their pikes, it was the time. "At dawn, look east", also horses would probably refuse to charge, they're not suicidal

[@andrewbutton2039]

I don't know where I really stand on the "Then I shall die as one of them!" line. Yeah it might cause some to go "Ah shit, we are so fucked" but others may see that as really heroic of some random dude (hey, that guy is a descendant of the Numenorians and fought with our king's grandfather, so cool) and be inspired.

[@marley7868]

I think the helms deep argument is that theodin knows the urkhai will attack him so he has no reason to meet them when he can hunker down and wait for them to attack and break on the walls they are orks after all

[@GeraltofRivia22]

In the book, it's actually Gandalf's idea. Anyone with a brain would know the point of a fortress is a force multiplier. A smaller army can defend against a bigger one. Meeting the orcs on the open field like Gandalf suggests in the movie would be suicide.

[@GeraltofRivia22]

And yes, you're correct, the Urakai are there to exterminate Rohan. They will attack Helm's Deep if the people of Rohan are there. And Gandalf and Aragorn agree in the books because they aren't idiots.

[@jubimagi]

I love these analysis videos!

[@williampoole1742]

Only opinions I have on the video thus far 1. It was my impression that the elves brought at least 600 to 700 men with them, if not 1000. They covered that entire wall two men deep AND had a reserve force of a couple hundred, enough guys to repel the wall breaching force for a healthy amount of time for the men on the wall to regroup. 2. We have no idea what the Orcish digestive system and caloric storage/burn rate is like, maybe they don't need much food, maybe they can eat a lot at once and use that for a while, or maybe that can eat and drink just about anything (literal maggoty bread and what looks like a mud beer cocktail). I get that for humans logistics is a big issue, but those weren't humans lol