THE PERFECT STARTER DECK! (Playing Around! SDSTCG)

[@Iceykitsune]

One major thing you missed is that your starter product should be legal for organized play. Nothing's worse than little Jimmy getting excited to play only to be told by the store he bought it from that he cant.

[@Kohdok]

"...Comes with 60 cards. How many do you need to play? 61."

[@ashtongaskill3980]

Was hinted at but could have been more explicit, deserves to be on the bullet list imo

[@Kohdok]

I mean, I assume that's a given. Is this comment based on something I should be aware of? Because "Competitive Ready" and "Tournament Legal" are two different things.

[@willowthywisp]

@@KohdokI imagine something like the LOTR starter kit with no mention of being legal only for Modern and later formats

[@Iceykitsune]

@@Kohdok I'm not sure how it is now but starter decks used to not be legal for official play due to including cards that were out of rotation.

[@RiderOmega]

As a Yugioh player it's nice to see a video about the structures that's positive from somebody who's not a Yugioh creator. Often times people complain that Yugioh players advise buying 3 to have a deck, but I find many people don't appreciate just how capable 3 Yugioh structures tend to be. They almost all usually have good side deck options (some of which are also needed reprints), synergistic reprints, and the Traptrix structure deck even included a bunch of cards key to playing HAT (Hands-Artifact-Traptrix) in appropriate historic formats at a time when historic format play was really taking off in Yugioh. I get the frustration especially from the Digimon fans who are used to buying two, but I have always loved Yugioh's structure decks.

[@insertcolorherehawk3761]

But the Yugioh Starter decks are Codebreaker, Slifer/Obelisk, and the 2-Player Starter Not Traptrix, Albaz, or Fire Kings, where the Structure Decks are the next step up from the starters

[@marvelsandals4228]

Oh yeah, Yugioh structure decks are the industry standard. They give a new player everything you need to play on a casual level, the decks have a clear theme/mechanic, they often include reprints of competitive staples, every card is unique, and the whole package is/was $10 (the price of one BOOSTER pack in some games). Want playsets of everything? Just pick up 3 for a total of $30. Oh yeah, and a lot of these ended up being archetypes that went on to dominate competitive play, so a new (or returning) player can convert their $30 investment into a chance of topping tournaments. Not bad.

[@RiderOmega]

@@insertcolorherehawk3761 Withing the overall trends of TCG product types, Structure decks are a form of Starter deck. Within Yugioh as a whole those words mean different things, but that's cause a Starter deck is Konami's way of saying the product exists to teach all the game's mechanics versus the Structure deck only focuses on one archetype. The Egyptian God Decks are also officially neither Starter nor Structure decks though they fit the format of a Structure deck. They realistically aren't called that because they do not come together to form as cohesive of a strategy as the named Structure decks do when bought in 3s.

[@insertcolorherehawk3761]

@@RiderOmega I guess it makes sense, though it's weird that Konami goes out of their way to split them

[@RiderOmega]

@@insertcolorherehawk3761 Yeah for sure, but I understand why. With Yugioh being as old as it is, it makes sense that some things are weird, because a lot of the standards that we take for granted in newer TCGs didn't exist when Yugioh established itself. As things go, having some weird naming conventions isn't that bad, so I think they've done a decent job maintaining the game outside of recent product bloat but all the biggest card games have had that as of late.

[@RogerVenn]

I remember buying the 2 players Master Duel box with a friend of mine by pooling our money together. I took the yellow/green deck. As for the booster pack, we just shuffled the cards and then drew one each randomly until they were out. So we both had equal chances at whatever was inside. He got to keep the rare Bolshak Dragon, but overall it’s such a good memory. We ended up playing the game for many months while in school, customizing our decks and sneaking duels at recess and while waiting for the bus. Great times… This video is excellent, and thank you for the wave of nostalgia :)

[@rizqihidayatullah6474]

LightNature Duel Masters deck is a good combination. I also has some combination with them, mostly with Fire too like Star Evolutions, Dragon Revolution Change, etc

[@delpeck2067]

20 years later and Duel Masters is still the best game ever released.

[@michaelh.1484]

The only thing about the Duel Masters starter deck and I speak from experience when I was a wee little lad. Imagine you and your friend picked 1 up for yourselves. And you opened the booster that comes with it. And you pulled a really cool card, and your friend well he's out of luck. Other then that though yeah, no card game has come close to the starter quality that product had.

[@marvelsandals4228]

Ok, time to make a new card game with a $20 "Starter Kit" which includes a rule book, a 2 player playmat, 2 booster packs, and a dual-color starter deck that splits into 2 mini decks for quick games between 2 new players...all in a nice storage container with gorgeous artwork and a blurb that hypes up how fun the game will be. Oh, and the kit provides 2 copies of each card, so if you buy 1 more you get full playsets of everything, 4 boosters, and no extra chaff.

[@Kohdok]

I'd buy it.

[@marvelsandals4228]

​@@Kohdok Excellent! I'll send you some free kits and various other merch. Feel free to make unboxing videos or reviews if it strikes your fancy.

[@fearanarchy]

So Epic Card Game-esque?

[@depalapili-pala4859]

I miss duel masters so much. Some of the most fun times I've had in my life was playing that game.

[@TheDan14]

I lost my copy of the ps2 game and my gba bricked but I bought a little anbernic handheld and have been replaying the gba games which is the closest to my experience from when dm came out and I could actually find people to play with

[@304Blaise]

One piece is literally duel masters but better

[@TheDan14]

@@304Blaise i finally got my hands on some digimon cards and it feels very familiar in a good way, i'll have to check out the op game if it comes around my way

[@MF_ZORO]

Get Duel Masters Plays. New set spoiler season kicks off tomorrow!

[@gwim4430]

I miss Duel Masters, that game was so fun. Great video Kohdok.

[@thehonoredone2361]

Found your channel a week ago been pretty much binging it since. It's indeed very entertaining content. Also what got me back into collecting Yu-Gi-Oh cards was the Traptrix starter deck. Totally worth it.

[@Glowmus]

If I gotta ding the Duel Masters Blue Box for one thing, it's that I don't think Rothus, the Traveler was the best choice for the face card. His art is awesome, don't get me wrong, and IIRC Shobu does use him sometimes in the show, but when we first got the starter decks at my LGS (given out for free as part of a Wizards promotion, which was sweet), a lot of folks didn't like him because having to destroy one of your own creatures was seen as a major downside. And at least one person (It was me. I was person) learned during our first day of play that if Rothus is your only creature when you play him, he has to be the one do be destroyed. But it did include a booster pack, which for me contained Gigargon, and the sick art on that card turned me into a believer on the spot. I loved Duel Masters and played a lot after that. So props to the Blue Box for doing its job so well (and for containing a copy of Holy Awe, my fave Duel Masters card).

[@0penthaughtz]

Rank them, Rank them, Rank them, RANK THEM!!!!! Rank those starter decks.

[@Njzeo]

As a kid I fondly remember the duel masters starter being amazing for my best friend and I. We got hooked and then we built our own decks.

[@codenamexelda]

Glad to see the first episode didn't kill the series.

[@Zetact_]

With some experience in seeing Yugioh products, including the controversy of the 2 player starter set, is that if you have a large card pool to work with that being very deliberate and selective with the cards you put into a deck is important. There was a period where a lot of the starter products would include a weird card like Lucky Iron Axe which is intended, I think, to display to a player what an Equip card is and how they work. But that's all that the card actually teaches, it's probably not the most efficient use of your starter deck's real estate. The new 2-player starter set has been considered to have a notoriously poor use of its space, a Yugituber actually ran through the entire set of decks and found that about half of the cards are either too complicated for a new player or don't actually teach a valuable lesson (for instance each of them have EIGHT normal monsters that convey no lessons other than "Normal Monsters exist"), or they're cards that are designed for synergy but that isn't cohesive with the rest of the deck (one of the decks has The Warrior Returning Alive with the only target in the entire deck being Sparkman). It also doesn't include a play mat, rule book, or token cards despite having multiple token generating cards. People generally agree that the 2-player starter set for Yugioh was a pretty big miss.

[@mhz3317]

Me pulling an alter art Agunimon from my 1st Digimon deck was such a cool experience

[@Schmoltis]

Yes I can imagine pulling an Omnimon from my starter deck, it was me, and it was the nice alt art too. It certainly left an impression, and it totally makes sense that a pack would at least leave a small positive impression and give more playability to the deck versus a rare chance of some signature high rare card or nothing. Nice video as always.

[@yoko_bby]

Starter deck boss monsters typically get power crept hard, so that cool signature card will sit in a binder for eternity

[@valutaatoaofunknownelement197]

Oh, the Beast Clans mentions really brought me wayyy back to when you posted your review on that poorly thought-out cash grab (with no grab).

[@nitemari]

Man, i was waiting for something like this one.

[@Wslasher]

Hey @Kohdok I would like to know your opinion on Vanguard's upcoming Startup Trial Decks since it's one of the biggest talks in our community. - I can estimate it's around $15 upon release. - The deck contains a new game mechanic card that can only be obtained by buying these specific decks. - Said new game mechanic will be MANDATORY. - The deck contains playsets of most cards but are all 'vanilla' with the exception of the cover card & the game's version of Kuriboh. - Said vanilla cards are also in the main line booster set but with skills/abilities printed on them while certain cards in this deck have printed 'tutorial guides' on them. - None of the cards are holo nor does buying a random deck give you a high rarity version. - And the English version's has sleeves instead of a booster pack.

[@Kohdok]

The fact that the deck is majority Art Cards is colossally dumb. That's what they did with the cards they GAVE AWAY for Dragoborne. People want their cards playable, and art cards have a nasty habit of being "Effect: Trust me Bro" unless they are universally understood like Lightning Bolt and Counterspell. MTG already tried Textless. It did not go well: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oqetpISFjamKe68

[@phobos1623]

I've been working on a card game based in my dnd setting for fun and your insight has been both entertaining and helpful in fleshing out the system for my friends.

[@tapntcg]

Once again thank you kodok sir we are on the testing starter decks stage

[@chachamyeoncooks3728]

One thing to consider regarding the shadowverse starters is that they hold really good value and you only need 1. One SVE deck will typically have a playset of every card in that deck so you don't need another one. The other reason why the SVE decks are more expensive is the leader card, which you need to play the game. Those leader cards alone can be around $20 each.

[@Kohdok]

"$20 for a card required for play" strikes me as a problem, tbh.

[@geek593]

@@Kohdok $20 for a whole kit that gets you started along with full playsets of cards that are formative to the class that will last long into booster upgrades isn't a problem at all. I know you hate Vanguard but don't let that color your impressions of a completely different game that does everything better. The starter decks in SVE are some of the best on the market. Hands down. $20 for playsets of class-defining staples, a leader card, and the tokens and accessories you'd want to use is better than $10 for random crap. All the inclusions have a purpose. And they do pretty much everything you list as good in the rest of the video. Good packaging, full playsets, obvious simple starter cards to give upgrade direction, clear identities, etc.

[@Kohdok]

$20 for just the leader card. Please read.

[@geek593]

@@Kohdok Starter deck leaders aren't $20. Specialty foil chase leaders aren't required or expected to play. Starter deck leaders are. The starter deck is comprehensive and anyone who is advanced enough to get into the game without buying a starter deck is also advanced enough to know how to spend $1 on TCGPlayer to pick one up from a seller.

[@chachamyeoncooks3728]

@@Kohdok But in the context of this video is what I'm saying in regards to the value in the start decks, not building a deck from scratch and skipping the start decks. A starter deck this way is the easiest way to get into a game because you don't need more than one. After that you can just build from there forward as you want. In my opinion a good starter deck should be easy to play with, require very few copies of the start deck, and teach the mechanics of the game. Yeah you could learn yugioh with one structure deck but it's not really a good example of what the deck could do if you utilized 3 total right?

[@ceulgai2817]

How the heck am I, a new player, supposed to know when I pull a super rare card? Putting that card in the starter isn't going to make a special memory (I'm likely to just assume every starter has it), but you know what will? Getting in a lot of good games with a friend! Also, I appreciate how you used a Planeswalker deck instead of a Commander precon as the example of MtG's starter deck. I would expect many not to avoid that error like you did. Thanks!

[@Ratstail91]

If memory serves, the first starter deck I ever bought for MTG came with TWO boosters. I opened a Vraska planeswalker from one of those, and she was my favorite character for ages - in fact, while the starter was white-green, I pretty quickly moved into green black, explicitly because of Vraska.

[@zyro7756]

After seeing it, my gold standard for Structure Decks is the Merei/Bavsagra decks that Overdress released

[@1Raroy]

As someone who recently pulled a signature card from a grand archive deck: I'm sorry, it's way better than a pack. What do you think about scripted matches? I feel as though it's not what an adult would be interested in when learning a card game. I think the best designed starter decks were the launch Card fight Vanguard Overdress ones, shame it's vanguard though.

[@Kohdok]

Check my Tutorial video about Tutorials! I've seen grown men weep at the Pokemon tutorial I put in there. It's more that a lot of them are poorly designed; they're unengaging and don't explain WHY actions are being performed.

[@razielhamalakh9813]

j k FYI, QR codes have a lot of redundancy in them so that even damaged, eroded, or partially covered ones are still decodable. Just pointing a camera at the video while it's playing gives you the link @ around 8:02. I'm not sure why you thought you needed to do that though.

[@ClubbingSealCub]

Force of Will starter decks were actually insanely good. Full playsets of cards, good enough to win locals with. I distinctly remember the green elf stater deck being almost a meta deck, only had to change like 8 cards.

[@bobbybero7452]

Nice pulls!!!!

[@syoukoosanai8541]

I remember years ago i saw your video on WIXOSS starter decks and a criticism you made was about it having full playsets and about making starter decks being potentially "too good", and here you make a similar criticism on how it also makes it difficult for people to easily slot out cards when customizing but ill be honest i still dont understand this criticism years later lmao For starters WIXOSS has always been a fairly consistent game with how kuch draw and search there is, you're kinda trained from the beginning to value consistency with how many playsets you get right off the bat More importantly though WIXOSS starter decks have always followed a very similar formula to their design because they are ALSO designed to teach you the skeleton of how a very basic deck should be constructed with how many spells how many Lv3s etc And a lot of starter deck cards are pretty useless vanillas or have pretty weak effects that are obvious candidates for cards you want to replace first I think you really undersell how a game like WIXOSS designs its starter decks so newbies learn to value consistency both via the use of playsets and the way the decklist lays out Level ratios and thus they have a framework to start customizing their deck with better cards while keeping that helpful skeleton. Like if you see a playset of Lv2 vanillas then thats a good starting point for you to find better Lv2s while keeping the basic consistency of the deck before you're ready to take off the training wheels so to speak and remove one of those Lv2s to tech in an extra Lv3 Idk why your store is the way it is, i will always argue WIXOSS is the best TCG on the market so it always saddens me to see it not stock a variety of product But its definitely not a problem with the product design tbh And "you only need to buy a deck once" is not a problem lmao especially when discussing Affordability and Approachability

[@marvelsandals4228]

I'll take a stab at it. I think the main role of a starter deck is to give them everything they need to get started, but leave them hungry for more. So rather than give them a perfect deck ready to top a tournament, give them a deck designed around a simple, but powerful mechanic they can easily wrap their head around. A few of the cards should be staples in that archetype and have broken potential, but most of them can be a bit boring, as long as they fit in with the theme. Once the player has played a few games and figured out how the mechanic works, they will realize how good their best cards are, try to get more of them, and swap out some weaker cards for more copies of the good ones. That's an important first step into the world of collecting and deck building that makes these games unique and fun, the appeal of brainstorming new ideas and constructing your own personal build. Why deny them that experience?

[@syoukoosanai8541]

@@marvelsandals4228 I can agree there's maybe something to be said about a player wanting more of their best card but even with other games this just means buying more starter decks which often results in them also now having duplicates of the more useless cards too. I think it's better in that case that WIXOSS does just cut out the extra step so you get all these copies you'd ever need for the lowest possible cost. Aside from that, that IS how WIXOSS decks have always worked, especially in the current format they have been very good at giving you all the cards you really need for the core of your gameplan, notably the Lv3 LRIG - and the deck teaches you how you should play this archetype and how the deck generally should be structured but there's still plenty of room for obvious improvements. Often including at least 12 vanillas that could easily be replaced with cards that will help synergize with the stronger cards in the deck. Not to mention other cards that are often not useless but not the best fit for the decks main gameplay. So again I think WIXOSS does do that concept justice, it gives you what you need to get started - the core of the deck archetype has been handed to you along with a handful of cards that can support the main gameplan, all wrapped up in a framework that helps teach you how WIXOSS decks are often built, but it can easily leave you hungry for more because it's definitely not tournament ready and has a lot of obvious weak links. So I don't think having full playsets is much of a problem when it still does everything else a starter should be doing, within the convenience of only having to buy it once.

[@Kohdok]

"You only need to buy a deck once" is a problem if you're a store that is choking on them. My store hasn't ordered more product because the Starter Decks won't move. A deck that can be bought more than once is helpful to STORES who want some churn, and generally it's a nice thing to give stores ways to help stock move. I think part of it is the Iona deck I showed off doesn't have a single vanilla in the entire deck, in fact most cards share a similar ability (The White cards force the opponent to play against them, the Black cards gain more power if you have a White card in play, Vimana can basically nuke any Signi) and so a place to improve the deck is incredibly difficult to spot. Literally the only place I saw to improve the deck was, unbelievably, swapping the Iona Level 1 for a VANILLA Iona Level 1 as her forcing opponents to attack is a liability at that level.

[@syoukoosanai8541]

@@Kohdok I do understand stores have to move product, but I'm going to be honest it's also hard for me to like feel bad for a store that overstocked on a niche product players only need one of. Worst case scenario they invested without doing proper research, best case, theres a minimum amount they have to order from TT and they're stuck with it - in which case I do feel bad for the store owners but the solution to being forced to buy a niche product in bulk is not to have players buy more product. I understand stores and players have a symbiotic relationship so I'm not gonna say "fuck the stores", but a balance had to be struck here. What is good for the store is not always good for the players and I would assume people familiar with YGO can agree with that on some level. As for the Iona deck, Black Crave - it has been a long time since it was current, and I was playing Blue in those days so my memories aren't the best. After taking a quick look I'll concede this deck doesn't seem to have any vanillas but I would argue it still has some obvious cards that are passable but could be swapped out with something better like Death Beam or some of the weaker SIGNI. However this point is also kind of moot because there is an obvious gaping hole in the deck where it can be improved. Like a literal hole, because it only has 3 ARTS, meaning it can be improved with basically any card at all given the LRIG Deck doesn't even have to worry about consistency. All that being said... Iona isn't exactly all that relevant to the main discussion here anyway... I do admit I did reference the old video so I guess I did drag up an old conversation, sorry about that. But it is like a decade old in a game with set rotation, none of those cards have been legal in the main format for years and in that time the philosophy and design has changed quite a bit. So regardless of what can be said about starter decks from two formats ago, I'll rest my case that current era WIXOSS decks do have obvious places for new players to start improving.

[@pascalsimioli6777]

Ok people, seriously you need to stop caring about stores, they're businesses they're not your friends. This honorable philosophy of "support your legs" spread like cancer by youtubers is ridiculous. Do they support you when you're having financial troubles? Gimme a break, buy cards on Amazon or wherever is cheaper, find friends and play at your house and to the hell with stores. They're just full of salty, sweaty, gross people trying to scam you anyway, you're an adult now so get your house and your friends.

[@skaven969]

fuck i love duelmasters

[@SmilePecoSmile]

I did not know there was an NT Warrior TCG. I need to own the complete set.

[@KashtiraFenrir]

My favorite booster packs are the ones that are tailor made for the starter deck. In the OCG for Yugioh, they released starter decks for Blue Eyes and Dark Magician, and each have packs that only have cards that work with those decks. Some cards in there even have super special rarities to encourage multiple purchases.

[@MrNovascar]

One of my pet peeves is that the Digimon starter decks half the time don't include Tamer cards. You know, the human characters from the show and one of the 3 core card types? Imagine Yu-Gi-Oh having no trap cards. Up until the beelzemon deck, only the digimonadventure characters got featured. Despite Gallantmon being from the show as well(with season 3 as one of the most beloved at all) and UlforceVeedramon being a tamer-focused strategy since the second core set.

[@Yous0147]

I agree that starter decks should keep you wanting to upgrade it, hence having it be "imperfect" in a sense that you can upgrade it using other strategies and enhancements, but I disagree that it needs to be done by inherently having starter decks missing playsets. To me that isn't actually conducive to stimulating deck building or the need for creativity, rather it is just stimulating the forced need to buy 2 or more starter decks to facilitate the base minimum for competetive relevance that that deck facilitates. It's bad practice and leaves a bad mouth feel for anyone who intents to buy a deck to then find out that they really need to buy 2 decks to have the genuine base, and beyond that it even makes the player start associating more of your cards as chaff, given that any full playsets in the deck will be in excess times 2, making them useless, unnecassary and without value in a broader context. If you make a starter or standard deck, include the full playset for the deck to do what it needs to do, your players will start buying product either way if they're interested in participating and they will have a full value experience from one purchase. Some players don't even like to customize decks, they just want a sealed experience and hence having a complete deck to sell gives you the best of both worlds.

[@zachall1573]

I used to wonder why starter decks were incomplete like that. With very few if any complete playsets and even stuff like vanillah cards. But it makes so much sense now.

[@derpderpson8796]

There was an old One Piece TCG in 1999, mainly released in german and italian I think. The grand line starter set was so nice, I still own it :)

[@MilkshakeSkunkette]

i distinctly remember pulling a "Hanusa, radiance elemental" from my booster pack in one of these bad boys... maaaan i loved duel masters! so much so i want to go back andbuildd some retro decks of the game... buuuut- buying the cardds now days are.... shockingly expensive :(

[@Darkpyromaniac16]

To the credit of Wixoss, the recent starter decks don't have a playset of all the cards in them. And each one will usually have 1 or 2 copies of a very strong meta card in them, so it can be more cost-efficient to just buy the 4 starters is you want a playset of that meta card. Also they now come with 2 paper mats in them, one has rules on the back, and the other has a "how to play this deck" guide on the back.

[@juice6521]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks the Duel Masters starter deck was sick

[@someperson46]

Recently I found a card store selling old vanguard booster boxes at 3 dollars each and there were still like 40 of them left, gave me a good chuckle

[@ericwollam5532]

One thing i do think is that a starter set should include a full playset or two of something. It doesnt have to necessarily be something good, but it should be something that shows the player the max number of copies you can legally have in a deck. Especially for those people that are gonna just skim through the rules and just "figure it out as they go"

[@Arkonu]

NEW VID! Alright! :3

[@KingNanoA]

Can i get subtitles for the beginning? Ya layin’ it on a bit thick.

[@Kohdok]

It's just Shakespeare poorly translated into French. "Whether it's nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows..."

[@Nobody-zl3kk]

Shoutout to MTG (or at least my LGS, idk if this was a widespread thing) where sample decks were given out to people who wanted to learn how to play the game, really nice way to get people hooked is to make the first dozen or so games be free lol It did come with the downside of starter decks almost never being legal nor viable in any format whatsoever but tbh I prefer the initial barrier of entry to be 0 if possible.

[@MrZer093]

This talk about starter decks is gonna get me to rant about Vanguard’s starter decks again. They were so godawful in the beginning, $10 decks that only had 1 each of the good cards (including the shiny cool boss being used to sell the thing) and you still needed to buy these highly specific cards from a specific set just to be even a little on par with more entrenched players (which set? Depends on the deck you got! And nope! It wasn’t always the most recent set!). To then get praise for going for TWO each and then NOT needing those specific cards anymore (as they were now always included in the deck) to then finally doing a full playset after the reboot. But the best ones were definitely the Overdress ones where they were simple, straightforward, different from each other in both art and mechanics, showcased what each nation does on a fundamental level, and for a year, whatever the most recent set was had functional upgrades to whatever deck it was. Sure literally every card got replaced by an even better card, even the actual cover card eventually but it was nice, especially that price tag of $4. Made it real easy to just go up to the shop and buy two decks whenever someone new expressed genuine interest and play and just let the guy keep the decks. 8 bucks is real cheap for a potential new player and friend. …and then they messed it all up by making the new decks $15 and full of cards with no effects on them and aren’t even played in the show and we have to buy them just to be able to access the new mechanic every deck will be using soon. Good lord what is Bushiroad smoking these days. And I tolerated them adding a chase promo to the later Overdress starters, leading to low supply as people bought the decks just for that one card and dumped the rest of the cards on ebay or a shoebox, leaving locals with almost no stock.

[@minihali]

I think the only thing I'd add, would be to include one or two big and splashy cards for players to build around if they want. Like a real Timmy or Johnny card. Examples that come to mind are the mentor cards from Flesh and Blood or the weapon "Rok". It is really hard to attack with, and not really practical in competetive play, but hits like a truck and is a perfect build-around card.

[@BloodBarron115]

I can speak from personal experience and say I LOVE pulling Omnimon from my Tai start deck pack. I was shocked beyond belief

[@empireyouth5791]

By the way I want to thank you for speaking up against including chase cards in starter decks. There was a store in my area that sold “game you don’t like” and I really wanted to buy the kai and itchy starter deck but it turns out everyone bought up the decks so they can get the Chase variant and I was left with nothing because The store held very few “game you don’t like” product. And what’s really annoying is that it wasn’t a dedicated card game store so I couldn’t sit down and ask people “ do you have a spare of that starter deck I can buy off you”

[@twitchster77]

I'd love to hear your thoughts on 'structure' decks. Things like the yu-gi-oh structures or commander decks for Magic. Starters are geared towards new players, where as structure decks are usually geared towards people who already know how to play the game and when done right, are much more powerful then a typical 'starter' deck. I love being able to pick up a pre-built deck or 2 and feel like I've actually got something strong enough to play out of the box.

[@GroundThing]

One thing I'd add is that I think starter decks should also make it a point to include some staples, that way even if you find the deck isn't to your play style you still have cards that are worth keeping, regardless. That way, it's a lot easier to stick with a game, which from the business side increases retention. (personal anacdote, my first real yugioh deck was the original spellcaster structure deck, and while it wasn't to my taste, there were some good staple cards that made for a lower barrier to keep playing for a while, because I didn't have to build a whole new deck from scratch)

[@rivzxxx3490]

Lorcana starter decks are sneaking up in price here in the UK

[@Insanidygames]

You should see what they did with the new cardfight vanguard Trial decks

[@Kohdok]

Made them $35, I know.

[@frishmous]

@@KohdokI’m pretty sure he’s referring to the newest ones in Japan, where the only cards with effects are the main Grade 3 and the Perfect Guards, every other card is not printed with effect text. You instead are given the privilege of purchasing packs of DivineZ set 1 to get the effect text versions of 90% of your deck. Your deck that has an MSRP of $17.

[@Kohdok]

Wait, what? Source?

[@frishmous]

@@KohdokI’m fairly certain they’re called “Quick Start Decks”. There is one for each nation and in Japan they are around 700 yen, they’re very clearly intended for people who have never played Vanguard before. When they release in America however they’ve decided to include sleeves, which increases the price to that $17 area.

[@Dunsparce99]

How to make the perfect starter deck? Simple, don’t do what Konami did with their new 2 player starter set.

[@supermysterious66]

What did Konami do with their new 2 player starter set?

[@Dunsparce99]

@@supermysterious66 there are a thousand videos explaining why it’s so bad.

[@Aigis31]

​@@supermysterious66 the biggest issue is that it doesn't accurately showcase the game. It has a bunch of random cards that loosely tie into themes of Synchro and Xyz Summoning, but don't go far enough into the mechanics to properly prepare new players for the actual gameplay of Yugioh.

[@empireyouth5791]

@@Aigis31 Who is it doesn’t actually showcase the game but tell me how would you make a two play music on the deck that accurately demonstrates the game……. that is approachable. we can make fun of them all we want but really no one else could do any better with yugioh, it Can be an accurate representation of the game but be approachable to new players or be approachable to new players but not be an accurate showcase of the game

[@1Raroy]

@@empireyouth5791 The DS video games had way better starter decks. Konami could also include static "upgrade" packs to add to the decks after using them allowing new players to take a step further into yugioh. Start with edison power level then introduce post dragon ruler power spikes. It's a design challenge, slapping vanillas with no synergy is throwing up your hands and giving up.

[@ChessPieceHalloween]

As someone who lives in the UK where FOW is basicly dead im jealous you have the moonlit savior revamp decks.

[@MattIsAMage]

you mention the Universus starter is "awkwardly shaped box for $30": lets unpack that, because that's the only mention of the product in this video: 2 starter decks (if at the yugioh box rare thats $20); each deck has a Guranteed UR card from the boosters of the same set (which, every card in the set can be used in one of the start decks) - so around $5 for both cards; 2 play mats, both blank on the back; and a rule book; and I personally find the box is *perfectly* shaped for 3 deck boxes and I still use that box to keep my learning decks in. so thats $5 for; the box, the mats and the rule book along side doing everything else you ask of starter decks. While the old versions of the decks still had 1-of-versions of the cards you can only get in the decks; the newer versions of decks now go the bandai version of 2+ of every card, so we only need to buy 2 of every deck and they're pretty cheap still.

[@The_Loreseeker]

Good video. As someone who's about to swap over to reviewing TCGs overall rather than just talking about lore, this gives me a lot to think about when discussing TCGs.

[@some_tiny_dragon7411]

I find a bunch of the decks with boosters have special boosters. Magic tends to include a sample collectors booster which has 3 cards. Digimon I believe includes a special pack that is rigged for increased odds of pulling good or relevant stuff. Might be a little more costly. But I think it would be good for a player to get immediate options for modifications, get a few staples or just have high potential for trade value.

[@zizi4941]

I was interested in playing the Skylanders Battlecast card game, only to realise that a box only contains 3 characters and 3 spells for them, the rest are completely random. To be fair, it was intended for scanning the cards to use in the app, but it's still disappointing not having a proper way to play the game physically by getting a starter deck.

[@michel0dy]

By this video I learned that ygo structures are way cheaper in the US than in Brazil. Even if we completely disregard the differences in local economies and inflation, just by direct conversion you're paying more for the brazillian product. That's why everytime someone mentioned "Buy 3 of these" it always felt a little steep for a "first step into the game" thing. I am upset.

[@Apocralyph]

The Shadowverse starter decks are actually kind of close to being good. The main issue is just that the price is way too high. They do come with a full playset of everything, so you only ever need to buy one, but 30 bucks is still a lot to ask for someone's first purchase. Other than that they do a pretty good job. They are easy to pick up and learn and have a sound strategy, but are still easily improvable. The high amount of extra (non-card) stuff you need to play is kind of annoying, but honestly not any worse than Pokemon and you do get everything you need within the box. If these decks were like 20 a piece and contained a booster pack for extra value, they would be fantastic. But alas, that is not the world we live in.

[@geek593]

They're not $30. Maybe when supply was still trickling in and initial demand waves were ripping them off the market during the initial player waves but they're sold at $20 now. It's not difficult to look up prices.

[@Kohdok]

Nah, m8, those tokens made of credit card plastic for absolutely no reason means it's $30 per deck. Any place that has them for $20 has them ON SALE.

[@geek593]

@@Kohdok The tokens aren't plastic. They're thick cardboard made to be the same thickness and weight as leaders to prevent pack weighing. The leaders need to be thicker since they're NFC cards. And Bushiroad and every other retailer has them at $20. Original manufacturers don't have a habit of selling evergreen rewaved products at a discount on their direct to consumer storefronts. The MSRP is $20.

[@Kohdok]

@@geek593 The tokens are plastic. I am literally holding some right now. You have no idea what you are talking about.

[@Kohdok]

@@geek593 Amazon and TCG Player and Troll and Toad have their list price at $30. I keep scrolling Google and it's $30, $30, $30, $30. Granted, that has dropped, because so many people were spooked by the $30 price tag. (TCG player has them as low at $13, woof!)

[@insertcolorherehawk3761]

I wonder what you think of Yu-Gi-Oh’s Enhancement Packs, (OCG) Structure Deck exclusive booster packs that fit the theme of the deck which gives the deck a randomized boost Generally TCG versions just include them from the get go without putting them in side packs (except for the 3 decks that included Power Up picks)

[@randomguy6232]

Admittedly the one point I think I have to disagree with is about playsets. For repeat purchases it can build up additional sales, but what wasn't touched on, especially for a newer tcg, is that it will really hurt your supply when players are buying twice or even thrice as much of the intended product off the shelves, bandai in particular as you mentioned, doesn't playset a lot of the higher end cards, but due to limited supply it has meant those decks aren't always getting into the hands of new players who might not have the interest to search them out or worse, pay markups, driving them away from the introductory product entirely.

[@untossablesalad4423]

Great vid, thank you!

[@caiodavi7279]

Liked the new measure metric of "yugioh extruture decks"

[@Kohdok]

That was when they were $10. Maybe I should change it to Pokemon decks because they're $10 again.

[@jonathan-6958]

"Get into competitive yugioh for like 30 bucks". Ummm....so like you COULD try that at your locals and it MIGHT workout ok-ish. But 30 dollars is ABSOLUTELY not enough to be competitive in the grand scheme of ygo. This may have been slightly the case at the time of release od the salamangreat structure deck as it was quite powerful and included a copy of ash blossom (a MUST PLAY PLAYSET CARD).

[@rivzxxx3490]

I love me some Shadowverse Evolve. I have all the first starter decks and have pre ordered the new ones. Wish I knew any people who actually played it or knew what it was 😂

[@-clod-8948]

i wish the "get into competitive yugioh for 30 bucks" was true. ig it kinda depends on ur definition of "competitive yugioh"

[@-clod-8948]

its kinda weird that yugioh has lasted this long cus i feel like it breaks almost every sin you talk about. i love the game but my god is it the most fucked up piece of shit ever

[@Aigis31]

The Shadowverse Evolve pricing issue is one I've felt. I'm a Shadowverse CCG fan and was interested in Evolve both when it was announced and when it came to the West, but the Starter Decks being $30 put me off entirely. I probably would rarely play the game, so that asking price is completely unreasonable. And I'm part of the target demographic!

[@skarmius45]

If I might ask, is it supremely common for the 30$ price tag on those SVE starters? From a cursory glance currently most starters are going for around the 20$ mark, which is by no means cheap but for a full play set deck off the bat it’s not the worst thing in the world.

[@Kohdok]

Its SRP was $30 on release. Places selling them for $20 have them on sale.

[@geek593]

@@Kohdok Bushiroad sells them for $20 and always has.

[@skarmius45]

@@Kohdok Ah I see, yeah that just honks in general. As a person who got into standard play with SVE, it's a shame that the starters were so prohibitive. That makes me worry about how their pricing for their commander-esque format will fare later this year.

[@zyro7756]

I think their justification was that the starter decks were way more tournament ready compared to games like YGO, with play sets of whole cards. So it was the equivalent of getting 3 YGO structure decks

[@MechaFoxs]

0:26 - what game is that in bottom right corner, with the yellow, green, blue dice?

[@thatoneboi9245]

Dragoborne

[@MechaFoxs]

@@thatoneboi9245 thx u

[@j453]

Good vid. I think I bought one of those duel masters blue boxes once in the time before time.

[@ryanfield8592]

I'm curious to know what your opinion on the One Piece Ultimate decks are? They follow the same naming convention eg: ST-10 and are more expensive but I do think that they work really well as a starting point. I definitely agree that they should come with a booster pack but I think ST-10 has hit it out of the park with everything else. You only need 2 to get a playset of everything. Every card is foiled AND textured. It comes with a plastic deck box. It contains reprints of previously hard to get staple cards. It's really good out of the box and needs minimal upgrades to improve it. Having a choice of 3 different leaders also means you and a friend can each get one but not have to play an exact mirror match.

[@rodrigoolmedo8529]

Nice!

[@coreymack6208]

Hey kohdok, can you make a video talking about the original netrunner? It’s resurrection and mechanics I think are worth discussing. Plus there aren’t many videos on KZbin about it already

[@Velereth]

Hi. The Indy game I work at has a lot we need to improve. Your video is an inspiration to make sure we do a good job in future releases other wise you're going to roast us 😂

[@vincl6260]

A shadowverse evolve includes playsets of all playable cards. For yugioh you need to buy 3 of those

[@gamerbear84]

"We need to create shit cards so noobies can choose to not use them after they lose by playing them" just doesn't really jive with me as a good design philosophy.

[@pascalsimioli6777]

Kohdok says shit cards force you to buy more decks which in turns relieves the store of too much product. Isn't that amazing? You get to help people making money by buying useless card board, good guy kohdok really looking out for the poor store owners that aren't making enough thousands of dollars lmao

[@FriskAzzy]

When I got a Digimon starter deck with a booster pack and I got a alternate art rise greymon

[@woodroeparadee8374]

Have you ever gotten a chance to look at the Gem puku starter boxes from old L5R emperor edition. I would love to hear your opinion on them. If you haven't and want to I will start setting aside a small budget to send you a brick for a video/games archive.

[@shelby142]

It's weird to hear Patreon names being read off and recognizing multiple people 😅 Small world. Though Chris Solis makes sense, given the ad. I'm curious, have you given thoughts on Pocket Paragons or maybe Space Lion anywhere?

[@Slimstudio]

For rules. What about what digimon did with making a few rule cards instead or a rule book?

[@GunbladeKnight]

So Weiss Schwarz are basically the perfect starter decks outside of the parallel rares? Honestly, I don't hate them having parallel rares if it means more get open so the basic cards are cheap.

[@dannypombix9592]

I started to watch your videos last night, and I've been loving them all. I have a question that I feel you're the only one that can answer, when creating a new card game. How many cards should be in the first set?

[@SomeOfBody]

Yugioh's Rush Duel format REALLY made me think about "incomparables". You're coerced to deckbuild around a skill - the requirements for activating them being "if all your monsters with X or more/less attack/defense are Y type" or needing specific types and stats to target (boosting two weaker creatures by 1000 atk with a stronger one on the field). This makes everyone's deck different not only in ratios, but which straight up vanillas (which are needed in Rush Duel due to needing tribute fodder, and often they end up participating in combat) you're running. Do you only take the ones that push the statline- there's so few 4 star creatures at 1500 in a stat- and focus on having 1400/0 and 1200/1400 ones or use weaker ones for archetypal synergy? Both are running the same skill and core, but those deckbuilding differences not only are fun but also make a tangible difference in matchups and game-to-game. The best part is that all of them are correct, and each will have a more favorable matchup in the metagame.

[@aster8732]

What are your thoughts on decks that are competitively viable out of the box like the Pokémon league battle decks or Digimon advanced decks? Some of the Pokémon league battle decks appeared in the background but there was no mention lf them so I'm just curious

[@dovesr0478]

Great video. I never considered that vanillas or otherwise useless cards are there to be obvious targets for replacement. I still don't like them, but at least they serve a functional purpose. Did you really crack that BT1 tho? There was a suspicious cut so I can't be sure.

[@dashmaddox]

Holy shit the banjo hurt noises paired with the SpongeBob bgm had be cracking up. S u b b e d

[@empireyouth5791]

Hello I want to bring up one more thing that I feel is important to mention an a critique During its second reboot” Game you don’t like” First starter decks Contained cards that are just down grades, in the sense that there is literally cards in the main set that has the exact same artwork stats and name but for some reason they either Weaken or straight up remove the effects. And I personally don’t like it on one hand this could be an attempt to make effects simpler for new players. But on the other hand it automatically makes the entire deck except for the main boss literally pointless once you get the better card. I am asking your opinion on this because while I dislike it maybe there is a method to the madness that you might see

[@empireyouth5791]

I was kind of mad personally because I bought that initial structured deck, and only to learn every card was replaceable not because of power creep or feature creep but because they were vanilla versions of cards already in the set left a bad feeling

[@ShadowJFX]

This blue box meant so much to me after playing yugioh but struggling at first due to not really understanding metas...a friend and i picked up two of these...a couple months later we got the red and black single decks not too long after i drew the last card of my deck...diamond cutter, attacked with a wave of blockers to end the final match between me and that friend at a tournament. Also Kohdok? do you have the hologram D-Max membership card?

[@jetinny]

Brooo i pulled Omnimon in ny yellow starter when it was $100 i was hyped af still have it to this day idgaf it crashed

[@DaranDragon]

Universus mentioned!

[@ashtongaskill3980]

Great vid!

[@jbigs65]

I think MTG’s current 2-player starter products are great! Much much better than the Jacetice league planeswalker decks! 😂😂😂

[@AdaptiveReasoning]

Video named Accessibility: Not accessable

[@Slick_Tails]

Just wanted to mention the worst starter pack I've ever bought was the Transformers 2-player starter kit which contains... *drum roll* ONE DECK! It even says that to play 2 players you have to share the deck, and IGNORE ALL CARD TEXT! An absolute failure that put me off the game for good.

[@ashlynbrown3728]

Heck i was trying to make my tcg even i was playing around with resource i call genes in my card game play my idea was to make it like yugioh mixed duel masters and pokemon but i really need some good ideas to make it a reality

[@pascalsimioli6777]

Here's a good idea: never take inspiration from ygo. Unless you want to make a bad game, that is.

[@ashlynbrown3728]

@pascalsimioli6777 okay what other card game I can use for inspiration instead like using the duel masters and pokemon inspiration, and what I'll do with the genes just take them out or keep them at least I've made a separate deck for the genes

[@ashlynbrown3728]

Well I was thinking in the shower and I got it the genes will be used like energy (and they will be use to be cast for some abilities) but if you have a card that matches that type of gene (Eg on use a plant gene on a plant monster) it gains the benefits of of the gene if it's put on a monster of its species like giving extra abilities in battle. And the barrier (subject to change to anything but life decking) basically what it is kinda like security from Digimon and after you break though I don't know win or maybe something else

[@NotTheWheel]

I've always been curious as I design my own card game, I've heard many people dissatisfied with the random nature inherent in TCGs. So I sorta wanted to make a card game where people could just get boxes instead. I suppose more akin to like buying a boardgame. Do you reckon such an idea is viable?

[@Kohdok]

I have made videos on the subject. Unfortunately, the answer is usually "no"

[@NotTheWheel]

@@Kohdok figured as much - nothing I'm too heart broken about, People say they dislike booster packs (I happen to like em) good to know data suggests otherwise. I'll look into your videos to sorta see where folk went wrong at least. I like your other videos. :)

[@pascalsimioli6777]

I play commander and treat every precon as a boardgame: I buy them boxed and never modify them, I only play against other precons. Frankly it works.

[@Apocralyph]

I think that Yugioh's Speed Duel boxes are a pretty good product, to the point where they actually replaced booster packs. They come with 4 or 8 playable decks, multiple skills per deck for some customization and some random foils to upgrade your decks and give some excitement to an otherwise fully guaranteed product. A pretty solid board game experience overall at an affordable price. And if you're big into customizing decks, you can buy multiples for a more constructed feeling.

[@harmlessdan]

​@@Apocralyph Speedduel has the luxury of not being the main pillar for YuGiOh so they can sell directly like that

[@thehomelander1146]

I miss duel masters

[@ginger-ham4800]

Yugioh starter decks have ALWAYS been $14 here and the booster packs are $8. Ever since tue early 2000s.

[@Gianpor]

As a YuGiOh and Shadowverse player, I must say it is a bit unfair to compare their starters/structures. Sure YuGiOh Structures are $10 each (or at least used to be) but to have a playable deck you must buy 3, not necessarily in terms of amount of cards, but mainly to have a cohesive deck. In contrast you can just buy 1 Shadowverse Starter Deck, for around the same price, and have a playable deck right from the get go, whether or not they're "good" decks it's a different story, but the same can be said for YuGiOh Structure Decks. Not to mention the extra stuff inside the Shadowverse Starters like leader card, tokens, atk/def counters, and life point counter.

[@geek593]

One of the cool things about the SVE starters is how great they are for teaching groups. They're built to be balanced with each other which leads to excellent learning opportunities that don't feel like one player is capable of bullying another out of the pod because they got the newer structure deck.

[@phoenixwright784]

The problem with the $30 price tag is that if you're interested or curious in a card game but don't actually know if you'll be able to play it (either do to low or non-existent interest at your locals or being unsure rather or not you'll like it ), you're probably not gonna want to spend a whole lot of money and half the cost of a full price switch game... Yeah, no, that's to much. I liked the digital version of Shadowverse so I'd love to try out the physical version... But as far as I can tell there's 0 interest for the game where I'm at (don't see product for it anywhere ) so there's no way in Hell I'm spending $30 on a single starter deck. Not when I'll need to pick up a second one as well so that I have two decks that I can play against each other should I find someone who's willing to try it with me. Like, it's great and all that the deck has a full playset of everything so you only need one for a complete and cohesive strategy, but that ain't helping the situation here. The asking price is just to much. Yugioh structure decks may require 3 to be a complete strategy meaning that the price will be about the same when all is said and done (actually a bit more. ) but that's not really a factor here. If I wanna try out yugioh, all I need to do is buy one deck for myself and one deck for someone else. Just over $20 for two decks is much more reasonable in this scenario than the $60 that would be required for Shadowverse evolve. Bonus points for yugioh actually being a widely played game so I actually only need to buy 1 and then find someone with a deck to play against. I don't care what a starter deck contains that increases it's price tag. The point of a starter deck is to be accessible to someone completely new to your game and once the starter deck reaches a certain price tag, it's no longer accessible imo.

[@geek593]

@@phoenixwright784 If you attempt to play a single structure deck you'll have an awful time with Yugioh. They don't design them to be playable at all with a single box. Contents absolutely matter. And from personal experience, modern Yugioh is drying up fast in my area. The locals scene died off during Tearlaments format, recovered slightly over 2023, and then dropped down to basically nothing right now. People would rather play Edison which doesn't have starter products.

[@phoenixwright784]

@geek593 sure, your time may not be to great do to the incomplete nature of the deck, but you can still use it to try the game out for far cheaper than shadowverse which is more important here. $10 for a starter deck is far easier to justify to try a game out than $30. It's that simple. I can promise you that your area's dried up yugioh player base still has more yugioh players than my area's 0 shadowverse evolve player base. Maybe your area is more open to different card games then mine is so perhaps you can demo the game more easily than I can in which case, cool, happy for you. But at least for me the only way I'm probably gonna be able to demo any new card game is if I buy 2 decks myself and force my friend to play against me with one of them.

[@geek593]

@@phoenixwright784 Quality of experience is worth an extra $10. Structure decks in Yugioh are incomplete, sometimes even when bought in 3s, and do nothing to teach a new player how to play the game. If you hand someone one copy of the Dark World or Resonator SD they will learn almost nothing and have a frustrating experience. The idea that anyone actually gets into the game with one SD is laughable. If it's the first step of them getting into the game it's usually followed up by someone with more experience telling them to buy two more or grabbing completely different products or singles to get to a baseline. Because those people know playing a singleton deck of mostly worthless unplayables in a good way to make people bounce right off and feel that their money was wasted. I can't believe I have to explain this. You and Kohdok are harping on an entry product needing to be $10 while using an example of the worst $10 product on the market for the purpose of starting out and then complaining about a product that actually teaches people how to play the game while having continuing value into upgrades that is expressly designed to teach players what the game and the deck's class is about because it's $20 and not $10. It's complaining to complain. In a hobby like TCGs the difference between paying $20 for two incomplete bad experiences that doesn't prepare you for how the game is actually played and $40 for a tailor made experience with teaching and a proper view of the game in mind is a frustrating night and a potential new player who quits due to frustration. And if you buy the SDs like Konami wants you to in 3s that's $60 and the new player will still probably bounce off because the game is impenetrable and SDs are mainly designed as DLC for old decks instead of teaching tools nowadays.