Krzysztof Penderecki: “Trojan Horse of the Avant-Garde”

[@ClassicalNerd]

A few notes: 13:06 - “Late” in his career, not “lated” 16:13 - The diagrams from _String Quartet No. 1_ here are found in Mikel LeDee’s dissertation, cited in the video description 41:43 - It's *Sirus* Zandfard, not Sirius, and *Aidan Somsen* should also be mentioned in the $2 tier.

[@oscargill423]

29:53 This is one of my greatest fears as an emerging composer. There have been so many revolutionary composers whose incredible styles have been copied to the point of ordinariness, and we are forced to search for novelty and shock in a musical landscape where where novelty and shock themselves seem to have become ordinary.

[@timcollins5349]

Thank you for your telepathic response to my telepathic complaint CN Thomas. This is my new favourite episode for content enhanced by your carefully choreographed side glances and the power of your bookshelf. Most enriching. 🎉

[@colinsmith5879]

This channel is truly a gem. Thank you for all your work and all these great documentaries! I've learned so much here

[@simonrodriguez4685]

Ditto!

[@JanPBtest]

I grew up in Poland and I remember seeing Penderecki once on TV discussing his works with music critics. This was in the 1970s at the time he was leaving the "traditional" avant-garde behind which puzzled many people. His answer regarding his turning back to the late 19th century, Mahler, etc.: "One cannot forever walk around in boy's shorts" :-) I also have an interesting clip from a 1990s Polish TV broadcast in which he discusses his "Credo". Adding English subtitles now. Will post the link here when I'm done.

[@juanw1093]

Sounds great I'm amused

[@karollipinski76]

Great musicological popularization. Almost perfect Polish pronounciation. Very nice.

[@orion5992]

Kosmogonia was the FIRST piece of Avant~Guarde / Post Modern music I had ever heard. It scared the hell out of me ... although, it changed my "understanding" of music to a large degree, which led me to seek out more like it. POWERFUL STUFF! That was in 1977! I've introduced my daughter to some of this incredible music ever since she was little, and at 20, she loves it too!

[@TheProsaicCult]

I met Penderecki when I was 12 years old at a concert of the Eastman School Sym. Orchestra. at Rochester, NY. I was a very precocious child.

[@ftumschk]

Excellent video of a fascinating composer. Many thanks!

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

Title is well-chosen :DD Love your channel!

[@ScottGlasgowMusic]

Cool video! Thanks for posting. I have been a huge Penderecki student of his works for decades and use his style of "sound mass" in my film scores. I even had a short film called Totem which I wrote for 52 strings (like Threnody) and recorded in French Polnasia-- I included at one key moment a 52 note cluster hit like the end of Threnody. RIP Penderecki! I really hoped to hear more new works from him before he passed. Brilliant composer of unique emotional power

[@Darkfusion280]

It is criminal how much work is clearly put into your videos vs how many likes/views they have. Thank you for sharing your knowledge!

[@ClassicalNerd]

Please share them, then-don't rely on the algorithm

[@mlinton02]

Thank you. I studied with Penderecki for several years and appreciate the care you take with his music and your enthusiasm for it. From what I know, your comments are about 80% right, which is a pretty good percentage! Thanks for posting.

[@DavidA-ps1qr]

I'm a great admirer of Penderecki. The values of his early "experimental" pieces are paramount to what he went on to compose...... Some unbelievable iconic music. Another great masterclass Tom.

[@prestopiano88]

I’ve enjoyed so many of your videos, but this one is one of my favorites. Fantastic analysis and observations, along with your comprehensive research! Thank you so much!

[@brendaboykin3281]

Thanx, Maestro Thomas. 🌹🌲🌹

[@ClassicalNerd]

And thank you, too, Brenda! Hope you're well.

[@duanejohnson8786]

This is one of the best presentations I have encountered in any venue. It features a knowledgeable speaker who commandingly ranges over his material in a way that is cleanly articulate throughout and succinctly expressive at all the right points. He delivers with none of the pandering mannerisms or generational affectations that mar what we often see and hear. My only suggestion would be for him to drop the trendy ‘nerd’ designation and opt for something as simple as ‘teacher’, a term that more accurately reflects his accomplishment.

[@jackspeight273]

yet another fantastic insight into a composer that i have no understanding of . Thank you classical nerd!

[@BlazejMarczak]

Fantastic piece! Dziękuję!

[@photo161]

A remarkably insightful and illuminating discussion not only of Penderecki and his music but of many pertinent aspects of the 20th-century Avant guard music scene altogether. A really marvelous lecture as there is so much to learn here and as inherently complex as many of the ideas are, his way of presenting them is always clear and comprehensible.

[@NicholasKuhne]

What a marvellous documentary. Thank you for the effort in making it.

[@RafikCezanneTV]

I've always wanted to know more about this thoroughly unique composer. Thank you!

[@mitodrumisra8972]

Finally! Was waiting for this for a loooooong time! Penderecki deserves to be out there more on the music front... Heartiest thanks Thomas!!! 😊😊 P.S. - Ig since my request quota has emptied a bit, can you fill it in again with a request for a look into the Russian composer Nikolai Kapustin? He was a gem of a pianist....

[@raulperez2308]

gem of a composer too, for how tough those pieces can get they're catchy as hell

[@ClassicalNerd]

Duly noted: lentovivace.com/classicalnerd.html

[@Bazeingstone]

Another home run! I always love see you’ve posted a new video

[@robertsirico3670]

I love this composer and I absolutely love this video. Thanks for doing such a comprehensive biography!

[@Listenerandlearner870]

Very excellent detailed overview.

[@alessandroseravalle8674]

Simply adore your videos dude!!!

[@bencurmusicproductions9677]

While a student at USC School of Music in the 70s, I was fortunate enough to attend the West Coast premiere of "Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima.'" Penderecki gave an hour talk before the concert. The conductor was Zubin Mehta. It was a life changing experience.

[@sudabdjadjgasdajdk3120]

Love your videos

[@queenofastora]

love this channel 🌌

[@ericrakestraw664]

If you've seen "The Shining" (1980), then you've heard Penderecki's music before. "Polymorphia" plays during the "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy" scene, and "Kanon" for string orchestra plays during the "Here's Johnny" scene.

[@Jinkaza1882]

Composers chasing color. Sound as pigment to paint a thought.

[@sumcio12]

Thanks for the insightful video! On a little side note: Penderecki loved plants. I remember watching an interview with Penderecki for the Polish television, where he said that if he was given another life, he would be a gardener. Also (if I remember correctly), he had his own labyrinth, in which he would frequently wander around seeking musical inspiration.

[@p.f.luxenberg3881]

Fantastic!!! 🎉

[@geroldpodraza3353]

Chicago Symphony, Boulez conductor, performed Threnody, musicians rebelled, eventually performed piece using student level instruments. I heard performance.

[@markwrede8878]

My compositions deploy Vivaldi-style transformations upon Hayden-style quartet bits of duodecaphonic melodic turns harmonized upon the surrounding lines with the twelve notes. The harmony is then mapped as a separate item, redistributed into four lines, and used to direct the transformations of the whole.

[@blindcanseemusic]

Wow, you have given so much detail

[@athb4hu]

I just found this channel and I loved this video, thanks.

[@glowmentor]

Wonderful. "Structural timbre" - that's the key.

[@thoroughlywithfoil]

Knowing little to nothing about music theory, I highly enjoyed this video and how well you put the subject into layman's terms, so I can atleast grasp the concepts. I have been a fan of, shall we say, difficult music, I was initially turned onto Penderecki through the bands Deathspell Omega and Ad Nausem, who count his works as huge influences. I already love his Polish Requiem and Threnody, so its great get more insight into those works as well as getting great recommendations for further listening. Looking forward to watching more of your videos.

[@rjwusher]

Liked and subscribed. Sometimes the KZbin algorithm smiles upon you.

[@lucasgadke9774]

Great video!

[@Cleekschrey]

His early works were great.

[@parsa.mostaghim]

great work, thanks🙏

[@vertexmodel1517]

I saw Penderecki and Aphex Twin in Wrocław 😊

[@pianomanhere]

I still love his relatively more "radical" works above all his others. These include Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima, Utrenja, The St. Luke Passion, The Devils of Loudun and De Natura Sonoris Nos.1 and 2. And after all, what would the climax of "The Shining" be without the opening of the "Evangelika" section from part 2 of "Utrenja?" It's a religious work but now Shelly Duval grasping a butcher knife in terror and reading the real meaning of "Red Rum" on the mirror is forever burned into my psyche. 🙄🙄... Oh...and... Thomas: This is one of your best videos among your entire oeuvre. By the way, an interesting fact about "Paradise Lost" (from someone originally from Chicago): I heard the world premiere performance in real time from Lyric Opera Chicago (simulcast on radio station WFMT 98.7 FM). Fine music but quite drawn out. At the time, Carol Fox (then-General Manager of Lyric Opera) not only had this world premiere but then took it to The Vatican to perform for the Pope. This entire endeavor drew Lyric Opera very close to the precipice of bankruptcy. Fox's successor, Ardis Krainik, brought Lyric's finances back into the black, thank heavens.

[@artherladett442]

Thank you for this comment!

[@oscargill423]

Agreed, when listening to Penderecki, I almost exclusively seek out his earlier works.

[@EpreTroll]

Ah one of those. This type of abstract music often just kinda sound like rain on a roof.

[@ClassicalNerd]

Reading between the lines, I think this is why he turned his back on that style-there wasn't much more you can do in it.

[@lokmanmerican6889]

@@ClassicalNerd , do you mean there is no more that can be done in the classic-romantic style? I don't believe so. If Mozart were to live a few more years, he would surely have produced any number of new masterpieces in that style. (And the same for any other composer) Of course that would be in the 18th century - if Mozart were living in the last century he would be writing in that contemporary style. But that cannot mean that the old style is exhausted. We just seem to be products of our own times.

[@segmentsAndCurves]

You are underestimating the beauty of contemporary music and rain on a roof.

[@ClassicalNerd]

I said that I think this is why _he_ (which which I mean Penderecki) decided not to continue writing sonorist music and transitioned away from that from _Fluorescences_ onwards. He believed more could be done in a post-Mahler idiom than the expressionism and serialism that historically ensued.

[@segmentsAndCurves]

@@Whatismusic123 You don't know what's delusional and what's not.

[@OminousGrymm]

This is great stuff and I'm not a musician, just a wanderer who discovered Penderecki through Kubric's uses of it to score the film 'The Shining.' I've been casually researching why his pieces work so well in that context to phonically underscore an overwhelming visual terror on screen. On the way here I found the irony in the 'apparent' subject (if you are a Polish speaker familiar with Orthodox prayers at least) that the main 'material' forming the backbone of Utrenja Ewangelia (used in the score to great effect) are Orthodox prayers about Christ's Resurrection. You'd think that would lend to a less terrifying composition, but its the opposite. Perhaps because a mind-breaking experience of something like 'resurrection as the tour-de-force of an incomprehensible maker' ought to be terrifying and freaky to limited mortals. But when it comes to the ending of Polymorphia with its long C chord, even as a total non-musician this feels trite and wrong. Isn't that just the traditional way to resolve dissonance and tension musically? Is that the 'Trojan Horse,' to pull Tradition out of his hat as the Final Word? You talked about how the music had reached a point of "No where left to go," and that is what the music feels like it is intended to convey as a kind of relentless 'crescendo' of meaning, so why did Penderecki even try to resolve it? Cinematically, I would expect to see at this point a rumbling 'cut-scene' to a mushroom-cloud blast kind of finality then blackness and silence. Or perhaps a flat-line sound-effect from an EKG before someone pulls the plug, again to blackness and silence, as the inescapable conclusion of a score that is all about .. No escape!?

[@jakew520]

I'm excited for Hovhaness!

[@exerciserelax8719]

Me too! I live in his hometown and would love to see him get more attention.

[@ClassicalNerd]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/fXy6mqihbM5nhdk

[@keithmoon3190]

His music basically is the definition of what one could say is, "run away as fast as you can..."

[@emanuel_soundtrack]

excellent, thx for the video. I am releasing a piece in his honor today/tomorrow

[@hendrikbarboritsch7003]

Great vid man. Hiroshima was my introduction to emotional effects music as a teenager. Please do a video about Lutoslavsky. I have had the honor to perform with him conducting one of his works.

[@mr.milehi9883]

So do you plan to do a video on Pierre Schaefer?

[@casenalesi5661]

Since you've done Penderecki now, you should do George Crumb!

[@mydrivejaja9131]

Could you talk about Leo Ornstein?

[@ClassicalNerd]

I did, many many years ago! So, it's not very good, but it's in the back catalogue.

[@GoldenScarab45]

The arc of Pernderecki’s work makes me think of a quote by Lukas Foss: “what could be more romantic than the avant-garde, and what could be more avant-garde than the romantic?”

[@ricardocabe]

excellent video. Maybe you can do one for Johnny Greenwood.

[@myverybeing]

Great vid, insightful. As a future request, Alfred Schnittke (unless i'm missing it, don't see him neither in the 'pool', nor in old vids).

[@ClassicalNerd]

He's there. See my "Great Composers" playlist for an alphabetized list.

[@robertgiles9124]

My friend would call this Intellectual Head Trip Music. For me, it's the sort os music I hear once, and am not so keen to hear it again. I need a melody and beat. I do like some Ambient music and Trance (Lisa Gerrard) but when Keith Jarret is at his best, I am floating along.

[@angryspoidah9607]

11:10 Oh my...

[@theoneandonly3520]

Can you do George Crumb? 🤨

[@ClassicalNerd]

I'm not convinced that his career is over, which is a necessity for a retrospective of this sort.

[@maxwellwhittaker3562]

This is great, could you do weinberg next?

[@ClassicalNerd]

Duly noted: lentovivace.com/classicalnerd.html

[@curiousnomad]

I’ve found my people here.

[@MaximilianMKGill]

You need to do a video on John Williams.

[@ClassicalNerd]

I typically avoid covering composers with ongoing careers in the event that they produce a salient late work that would merit mentioning. However, I'm not opposed to discussing someone like Williams in a film-music context more broadly-the trouble is, there are already many fantastic film-score-analysis KZbin channels out there.

[@MaximilianMKGill]

@@ClassicalNerd There are videos about his music but not really about him.

[@simonrodriguez4685]

@@ClassicalNerd He’s not worth the time you put into making these in-depth analyses of the composers’ life work. He’s more into forgery than into making original music. There are tons of composers still awaiting to be featured in one of your videos. 😜

[@MaximilianMKGill]

@@simonrodriguez4685 John Williams is always worth the time.

[@simonrodriguez4685]

@@MaximilianMKGill There could be scores of original motion picture scores, and even then they wouldn’t score one against the master pieces of the concert hall music tradition.

[@simonrodriguez4685]

Excellent pick! Thank you 🙏 People forget Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima was written in the wake of the a-bombs being dropped! How could it sound pretty? The avant-garde protests against beauty were more than justified. And yet, in a way some works are eerily beautiful... The problem became that a lot of pieces, especially by the alumni of all the different ‘trends’, started sounding too similar... but that’s another story...

[@ClassicalNerd]

I'm not sure people were expecting "pretty" so much as "sad" (much as _Adagio for Strings_ gained incredible popularity in the post-9/11 USA, or Górecki's _Symphony of Sorrowful Songs_ gained traction off of its similar commemoration of tragedy). Not many pieces went the route of searing, visceral emotional expression like the _Threnody._

[@simonrodriguez4685]

@@ClassicalNerd Once my child asked me if zombies existed. I told him they didn’t. A couple weeks after I watched a documentary on Hiroshima, and the people burnt, startled and -most of them- dying in the aftermath. Years later I had to tell him that zombies did exist, at that exact point in time within the weeks following the most horrific of imaginable tragedies... Without undermining what the survivors of the immediacy experienced, in a way we’re all Hibakushas, to me that’s the message of the Threnody, and it’s delivered in that harrowing way...

[@finneganlindsay]

The problem is that most of the convential avant-garde is not self-sufficient, it relies just as much on traditional, tonal music as the latter itself. Because if you set out to be against something, its opposite, it is just as unoriginal as the thing you are negating, much like how the absolute value of -1 is 1. I can mostly agree with you here; I won't pretend like it's beautiful, but it just relies on the fact that I enjoy ugliness, but when done right. Avant-garde music has the capacity to provide otherworldly, cerebral experiences, take Ives' Universe Symphony, which I love, but it also has the capacity to be pretentious, pathetic garbage, such as John cage.

[@davidwright8432]

Those standard chords (C Major etc) bookending the 'wilder musical shores', seem to me a witty and wildly funny way of saying, 'Just kidding!'

[@TomGuideKrakowPoland]

740☘👍🏻thank you Bro. greetings from Kraków🇵🇱🇵🇱🇵🇱Poland

[@BenjaminStaern]

Perfect pronounciaton of his name!

[@wvr23ph]

It is hardly possible to discuss Penderecki without mentioning Eugeniusz Rudnik and Polish Radio Experimental Studio. Without Rudnik, Penderecki's early avant-garde pieces for tape (Psalmus, Ekerecheria) just would not exist. This being said, I strongly suggest investigating PRES and Polish avant-garde composers, like Kotoński, Sikora, KEW group, Mazurek and many others.

[@TheProsaicCult]

Possibly the greatest composer for the last 100 years.

[@oliverwelles5366]

Could you do one about Carl Reinecke?

[@ClassicalNerd]

I mean, I can put him on the list, but don't get your hopes up: lentovivace.com/classicalnerd.html

[@oliverwelles5366]

Thank you so much for responding! I’ve never seen a more devoted creator in my life time.

[@seanramsdell4117]

I see some entries are deleted from the Requests page. Copyright concerns?

[@ClassicalNerd]

I've made changes to the way that requests are handled since I get-and I cannot stress this enough!-way more requests than I'm likely ever going to be able to fill. I post these on Patreon (as requests from patrons are handled with more weight) as well as my community page. See kzbin.infoUgy0SFlpWJRa4Tb4HFF4AaABCQ and kzbin.infoUgkxesREPi9GEshbXPFTNjAhZMeVj47vxJRw

[@MichaelConwayBaker]

How about the Swiss composer, Frank Martin?

[@ClassicalNerd]

Duly noted: lentovivace.com/classicalnerd.html

[@jelanisurpriscomposer]

33:42 is Christian bale, no cap

[@danielalfaro3118]

There is an ‘s’ sound in his last name!?!?!?

[@ClassicalNerd]

Well, in my accent, yes. The IPA is ˈkʂɨʂtɔf pɛndɛˈrɛt͡skʲi

[@danielalfaro3118]

@@ClassicalNerd I see! Thanks for the whole video.

[@mirkojorgovic]

Not Troyan Horse Just genius with multiple technique like Igor Stravinsky.

[@emporertorvus4475]

Padre Antonio Soler pls

[@ClassicalNerd]

Duly noted: lentovivace.com/classicalnerd.html

[@emporertorvus4475]

@@ClassicalNerd Thank you.

[@emanuel_soundtrack]

lol exactly, the c major is so out! i would c major there but without 3 or added the maj9.

[@ericrakestraw664]

It reminds me of the Beatles' song "A Day in the Life" ending on an E major piano chord after a minute of orchestral cacophony (where the musicians were asked to gradually play from the lowest to highest notes of their instruments). I wonder if the Beatles knew of Penderecki. (They were certainly influenced by the avant-garde in "Revolution No. 9".)

[@markpaterson2053]

Penedercki is always neglected when people talk about the giants like Shostakovich---Krystoff was every bit as talented and his symphonies are so rich and dramatic

[@simonrodriguez4685]

11:00 It’s a great joke!

[@heifetz14]

radiohead. jeez.

[@ClassicalNerd]

Your point being ... ?

[@ejb7969]

I think he means that Radiohead is as famous as Jesus.

[@stuartraybould6433]

You clearly haven't really listened to Radiohead and know nothing. Try listening 'properly' to Jonny Greenwood's There will be Blood or Spencer soundtracks, it might surprise you.

[@dingus_doofus]

After all that dissonant mess, the chord sounds out of place and jarring. I would've thought of it as a statement on perception of harmony being reinforced by convention and expectation, rather than being an innate quality of a certain way of writing music.

[@dis.infectant]

"Lawyers and locksmiths" If all were honest...

[@snuppssynthchannel]

Excellent video!