The Beginners Guide to Aero Modifications for your Car

[@HuxleyTheProf]

The first thing you do should be put a huge spoiler on your honda civic

[@sandrino5]

I thought it was stock part. Never seen a teens 90s Civic without spoiler :D

[@313DJMASTER]

Sander Palu my friends civic EG is bone stock 1.5 DXi

[@riverkelly7747]

Yeah it adds 50hp

[@crackedemerald4930]

Don't forget red brake calipers, they add 30hp each!

[@lucaspaliouras-loureiro7496]

ceejay1992 not really all the ones on Craig's list come with one maybe two (for front and back of course)

[@harrisonsiegel9536]

Each vtec sticker you have adds 2000 lbs of downforce

[@djsonicc]

lol...noob. vtec stickers add HP, not down-force.

[@lordwalrus8615]

@@djsonicc lol noob. The sticker directs air upwards and creates significant amount of downforce. It being vtec sticker also adds like 100hp per sticker

[@ixifutureproof9286]

@@lordwalrus8615 lol noob. The sticker directs air upwards creating downforce, gives 100hp at the panel - or more if you use high speed wax, *and* attracts the honies/homies (Insert preference *here*).

[@weskirkland5850]

It's true I added them to my camaro and now i'm world champion.

[@groomlake51]

I bet you would be surprised at how many of us real racing engineers watch and learn from your vids!!! Thanks😂🏁

[@reaganharder1480]

I just scrolled through the recommended and saw a video from him with "why I left my F1 job" in the title. I think your comment about "real racing engineers" may be misplaced...

[@Xayuap]

¿are you computer engineer from the EA game Real Racing?

[@realtissaye]

@@Xayuap LMAO

[@rodutus]

@@reaganharder1480 what

[@reaganharder1480]

​@@rodutus the phrasing of the OP kinda sounds like he doesn't think Kyle is a real racing engineer. Like, he's just some college grad who's making youtube videos now. But actually Kyle worked as an engineer for the Mercedes F1 team for several years while they were winning everything, so he's got about as much cred as you can possibly have in the race aero engineering world.

[@gamingmadesimple5510]

Note1. Big wing to make my civic turn harder Note2. Vent exhaust straight up through hood to provide down force without drag when I'm pushing my civic to 100+ kmph Gotcha I'm ready for the drag strip

[@luigismushrooms5701]

I wish I could push a car 100kmph, I'd save a ton on fuel

[@SilverScarletSpider]

Try bolting a box fan to the rear, and maybe you can make a diy fan car 😂

[@Dabuilder1]

decreasing drag to the 0 impossible

[@collinkaufman2316]

Where would the air intake for that be best?​@@SilverScarletSpider

[@ziomel105]

You should do more on high speed aero designs, not many people talk about it, but in my opinion it is hard to get low drag and enough downforce to get stable around corners at very high speeds (200 kph minimum and upwards of 350 kph)

[@chriscole344]

If it were easy F1 wouldn't exist. It's not really an opinion at this point, more like fact.

[@deltajegga]

that why you need active aero, with servos controlling attack angle at all times.

[@ziomel105]

Chris I didn't say it is easy, but F1 are different design to what im talking about, even in what they consider low drag setup it still produces a lot of drag. And that is because they are aiming to achieve fastest laps around track where you have most corners

[@chriscole344]

Ah gotcha. I was a bit tetchy when I wrote that comment lol and tried to be sarcastic without really thinking about it.

[@brycefuller3050]

Real shit

[@groomlake51]

I'm proud of you!! I asked for drag stuff and you put the actual car I work on in the video. "YOU CAN NEVER HAVE TOO MUCH HORSE POWER OR AMMUNITION!! Bill Miller is king

[@DaksAhoy]

i'd love to see more videos like this, but have them slowly step up in complexity and in-depthness. So for example you could begin to get more into individual parts and how the different shapes and designs have different effects. I know that you have done similar videos already, but if these ones were a bit more DIY focused as this video somewhat is, i think that would be pretty neat. Anyways love the videos! Keep it up! Cheers mate.

[@Christopher26021994]

+1 Such kind of slowly stepping up in the complexity and in-depthness would be really good idea, and we could easily step up our game in aerodynamics. Also it could be a series of videos with "stages" of aerodynamics, like what would be a Stage 1 of aero for most of cars with certain application, another video about Stage 2 where it would be discussed more agressive or different aerodynamics as the power of a car and speeds would increase etc. Just overall, Dakota Snow is right, develope this series more! :D

[@Eduardo_Espinoza]

Enfasess in diy definitely 😁

[@BluTrollPro]

0:50 another instance for street use is the Mazda MX5, at motorway speeds of 120-150kph the car is effected a lot by crosswinds from trucks and environment. There are many front splitters on the market which have been known to increase stability considerably. Having fit one on my own I can vouch for the fact that the wheel feels much more stable and the car becomes much more planted at high speed.

[@korisnik56]

I don't know what I'm doing here I don't even own a car

[@norgepalm7315]

Get a job

[@airekvinlandslayerofthesev5234]

I have an 03 impala... but car stuff

[@pancake5830]

@@norgepalm7315 maybe he isnt old enough, or doesnt need/want one. money isnt always the reason for someone not having a car, our house costs ~400k, but its in the middle of the city, so we barely need to go anywhere, hence, we dont need a car, we just walk.

[@norgepalm7315]

@@pancake5830 lol so lemme get this straight, you literally went out of your way to state the goddamn obvious.. to a joke comment. Not only that, but the absolutely groundbreaking, earth shattering knowledge you clearly possess which must be unheard of for a kid your age.. was just a ploy to try and flex your parents home? Lol wtf kid.. I know 400k sounds like a lot to you at your age but, honestly, not trying to be an ass, but a 400k inner city property is actually very much on the low side. Obviously the city etc matters a whole lot here, but you need to chill and stick to roblox bux

[@DasParedes]

the amount of info concentrated in this video is incredible, I feel like I saw 6 videos about aero in 1/10 of the time, congrats!

[@mlcollingwood]

That is a very old photo of my MX5, it was also the first time I met the maker of this video! Thanks Kyle!

[@VINZY247]

Gonna try this on my toyota camry

[@adamdunn8049]

same but toyota matrix hatch!

[@AmericanMuslimOW]

What did you add on/modify exactly? What were the results? Camry owner here :)

[@campkira]

Pointless... Large sedan can not corner on the first place.I should know I drive into corner on highway before... Almost died.... Thank to shit highway road maintenance.

[@andromalius27]

I think some of you don't understand the concept of sarcasm here

[@kevingram3423]

This was the best KZbin video I have seen in a very very long time

[@InClaymont]

I added a high rise spoiler to my Honda Prelude just for looks. Although I got a spoiler I knew was functional on the car it was designed for, I didn't expect it to do much other than add some stability to the rear of the car at high speeds. I was pretty surprised when my rear tires stopped squealing while taking certain turns that I would frequently drive in the valley. It seems that the spoiler I have on the car actually helped at speeds as low as about 50mph. Regardless, I only really put it on for looks and will be going to a chassis mount spoiler once the car is closer to being ready for the track.

[@berzerkrobot]

This is awesome, more please!

[@L00PdeL00P]

3:23 that is one Biggass wing. It probably could drive upside down at like 26 mph

[@LukaZovko]

Hello Kyle,I was wondering if you could do a short video on blown diffusers?

[@danieldavies3415]

Awesome, gives me encouragement to go sick on the khanacross car!

[@z-ro34]

I'm glad i watched your previous videos before going with my wing.

[@ChristnThms]

I kind of chuckled that you mentioned dragsters at the end... They really play by their own rules. A single top fuel dragster makes more power than the first 5 ROWS of the Indy 500! They accelerate faster from 200mph to 300mph than most race cars can accelerate from 0 to 100mph. At the starting line, the clutch is intentionally slipped to allow traction. This slippage burns off over 1000hp AT THE STARTING LINE. The engine isn't even at full throttle at that point, and certainly nowhere near peak power rpm. Dragster aero doesn't follow the rules of anyone else. If you told a crew chief that you could give him an extra 300hp worth of traction at the starting line, but that it would cost him 3000hp of drag at the top of the track, he'd take it in a heartbeat.

[@tojiroh]

Top fuel is insane. Insane speed, insane acceleration, insane BUDGET! Rebuilding an engine after each pull? No problem. Just gimme 40 minutes and 15 trailers worth of material. O.o

[@xWORLDxCHAMPIONx]

Oval sprint racing is an incredible example of complex huge aero working beautifully!

[@kotajames6211]

I'm Here! I know all the aero but its cool getting a refresh

[@LogieT2K]

Yeet bout to wak a big mcwing on my hyundai getz

[@hendrahendra]

Getz sum wing

[@tony_5156]

Definitely need this video since I plan on taking my nonexistent car to the track.

[@SilverScarletSpider]

Do you think that bolting a box fan onto the rear of a Honda Civic would noticeably increase aero performance?

[@carlcaturday1790]

Great Video! Keep it up!

[@roflchopter11]

Glad to see solar cars as examples in this video

[@tangles01]

Excellent and well put together video man.

[@geoffbuck6865]

Your articles are always very clear and informative, dealing authoritatively with topics often ignored or dealt with superficially by others. Maybe you could slow down you delivery a little as sometimes I can't keep up with you on complex issues. And thank goodness there is an absence of the excessive mock friendliness and 'humour' which make so much of KZbin almost intolerable. Keep up the good work - your channel is excellent!

[@Hotsupper]

I loved how succinct this was, especially considering the breadth of the content! Great work!

[@nickcurrier9434]

Hey Kyle, can you do a video specifically on rally cars areo and when they go off jumps

[@observingrogue7652]

Nick Currier I think it's because, they have to find a balance, for their best time. If they slowed down, to the point their tires don't leave the ground, then that will ruin their best time. But if they go too fast over a hill or jump, that they not only leave the ground, but go so high, that they also break something, including themselves, when they land. And or, they land off course. I think it's all about how hard of a landing, the car structure, suspension, and occupants can be ok with, an how much of a risk the driver is willing to take, for the best time possible. Not only is the speed over a hill is important, but how you leave the ground, and the front-rear downforce bias, will effect how you land. Braking or closing the throttle, before the hill crest, and or, more downforce in front, will make you land more nose first. Closing the throttle, then spiking it open before the crest, leaving the crest while just accelerating, and or more rear downforce, will make you land more tail first. It's best to land with all tires level, with the ground on the other side of the hill. And leave the hillcrest straight, not turning, or you will land crooked, and may loose control. If you know the ground ahead, seen a glimpse of it on approach, or you have co-driver with notes, then that's how you know what angle the ground is, on the other side of that blind hill. But if you're new to track or road, and can't see, or you just don't know, then go slow enough, that your tires are still touching the ground, even with the suspension fully extended, because vehicle like cars, can't stop, if their tires are in the air. And is your downforce strong enough to keep them touching the ground, at a certain speed?

[@observingrogue7652]

Nick Currier I'm no professional. This is just my guess.

[@observingrogue7652]

I'm sorry. I read "when they go off jumps", as "why they go off jumps"....

[@seacrablol]

theres some crazy shit about this topic. the later year group b audi quattro was designed so that all four wheels would even out in the air and bring the car down in a controlled way im pretty sure, check that out dude its an awesome topic.

[@zigmundfreiheit7222]

They also shift down then up to shift the weight around, helping them stay straight when jumping

[@bretbradbury5559]

At or around 2:44, on drag cars, that is a drag spoiler and do in fact increase the downforce in a remarkable way. We have added, removed and adjusted one to a drag car. Along with known spring rates in the rear and ride height sensors, we are able to measure and calculate the differences in downforce yield from this. By your comment, it sounds as if you're saying it simply reduces drag which isn't the case and my experience.

[@MegaSanta5]

I was ready to do some research but you’ve answered all my questions. Thank you

[@seagie382]

I never got the claim that more people are more comfortable with understeer, probably because I learned to drive in snow and oversteer is always preferable in the snow since you can use power to push yourself out of a slippery corner rather than simply sliding into a tree or curb.

[@Fred_the_1996]

Exactly

[@Fred_the_1996]

You can also countersteer, whereas with understeer you're just going straight on no matter what you do

[@DarkIzo]

id like to hear more about day to day use of low skirts (combined with an underbody ofc) that may scrape but should last

[@mickcoomer9714]

I used a semi-science method of designing my Aero on my kit car. Waited until it rained so there was plenty of spray. Got the wife to drive past me so I could see the air flow in the spray and photograph it. The back of the car always got dirty very quickly. The photos showed that I was pulling spray off the road in a vortex behind the car. I made a second diffuser wing which fitted below the existing diffuser wing. Much cleaner rear. The same spay/wind tunnel showed a much cleaner air flow at the back of the car, lift a plume of spray in a laminar method rather than the turbulent flow I had before. No idea if it made any difference to downforce and don’t care but it does keep the car cleaner.

[@dennisvanderben2719]

amazing amount of knowledge in under 8 min!

[@realkilju]

I think that crazy aero time attack cars looks so good

[@Artics]

Xantteboy it's beautiful

[@Kiirxas]

In 2 years I'm going to study aerospace engeneering, hope being able to work in racing teams and designing supercars helps me modding

[@hamoud8608]

My favourite part about time attack is the sheer variety of vehicles applicable, never expected to see a time attack s chassis especially considering they’re known for the opposite of grip

[@wesb5553]

Love your Chanel!!! So awesome to be able to learn from an engineer with real world experience 👍

[@Israelashala]

Tthis thing got me more confused but you still have gained a subscribe

[@alldanameswheretaken]

Can you maybe do a video on the sheet metal “drag wing” boot extensions and how they work and compare to a normal aero foil type wing

[@RPMLegends18]

I’m one that is definitely more comfortable with high speed oversteer than understeer. I enjoy your videos, I’m going to start playing with some new ideas inspired by your videos.

[@adolfshitler8341]

Surely do more for like dirt rally and downhill racing

[@nedmotorsports2153]

Your videos are amazing! There's so much learning. Thanks man. :)

[@wernerderwerners]

As ever....great, informartive video. Thanks Kyle!

[@timkis64]

mine are only for fuel milage improvements at highway speeds.so far minimizing the "parachute" effect underhood has made the largest mpg gains for me.but i rarely go over 65 mph too.

[@Gejoepee]

Thanks ,very educational. Please continue

[@christiangonzalez1983]

Please talk more about Fsae aero!

[@MrDoinRocks]

imsa rx7 spotted on turn one off the main straight. ooft what a beast.

[@rdspam]

0:30 For street, it’s actually not a different story, it’s still just for show.

[@isaks3243]

A small lip spoiler on a sedan or a downwards facing roof spoiler on a wagon/hatchback actually nets a pretty significant improvement in drag

[@kaelcox639]

This was super interesting and intriguing

[@louisswanepoel1614]

1:46 Oh my goodness, that bridge looks extremely familiar to the one crossing the Theewaterskloof dam, in South Africa. Even the road sign and numberplate seems like what you would get there. If you could clarify it to me I would be soooo happy. Oh and great video by the way.

[@Shadowdarknessone]

really intresting Topic ^^ what could make an ae86 trueno coupe and hatchback better. I mean with lower drag i guess

[@VigilanceTech]

I'd like to see you discuss more about the effect of fins, such as found on the 1960 Chrysler Newport coupe (as it is my understanding they were wind tunnel developed)

[@650hpreventon]

The only spoiler works for increase speed if the ones you showing at 2:38, it's almost looks like an extention lip on the trunk, it only increase around 3-4 mph

[@Alex_Bket]

amazing skill very very nice to watch tank you !

[@vgannon-7303]

Great , Easy to understand video !

[@groomlake51]

Next time you come over to a drag race we got to get in touch!!

[@Stephenc4877]

I’m gona try the flat floor as you suggested. Assuming the rake in and more aggressive rake out creates a venture effect? Sorry I find the science behind the areo fascinating, al I can picture is an old school carb in how it works.

[@brandonmiller9155]

So for my needs a moderate wing, splitter and underbody would be preferable. Got it

[@FullForceDrummer]

0:50 Wrong. Professor Wiedemann who was part of Audis Aero Developement told us, that the Spoiler was only added for psychological reasons. The changes to the rear Springs and Shocks were the crucial point :D

[@geluix69]

The 2018 WRC cars have some pretty interesting Areo because of the rule changes in 2017. Pls make a video of the areo on WRC car.

[@phitsf5475]

Your buggy is looking great, I'd love an update on that.

[@mlcollingwood]

I made the video at 4:56 :)

[@NigelRichardson]

Mark Collingwood same here 4:15 and 6:15

[@NigelRichardson]

@[e-mail]

[@groomlake51]

Me also🤣@ 7:04

[@MarioHernandez-fr3jv]

All right son...its time to have the talk...on aerodynamics

[@JETZcorp]

The exhaust of a Top Fuel car produces almost as much force as one of the jet engines from the Me-262 fighter.

[@extrabass287]

Ayyyyy the sydney moter sport park I was there!!!

[@groomlake51]

I love your vids Kyle !! Maybe we can learn about the Air entering the engine and intake tract dynamics !!! I get to spend a lot of time on a blower dyno and it’s comical how little is known there.

[@alexanderSydneyOz]

Excellent video! thanks

[@fillman86]

this for drift would be nice... unless I just can't find your video on that haha

[@DjDolHaus86]

Hi Kyle, a bit of an odd question but could a car running a large turbo/supercharger cause any kind of weird low pressure zones near the intake and if this could potentially have an effect on airflow across both the car and the intake itself? I was wondering if a high positioned intake might cause more aero weirdness compared to a low one which might potentially get less air and therefore less power or something along those lines, I'm familiar with the basic concepts of both aerodynamics and IC but not at a high level so just spitballing ideas and would love to hear your thoughts

[@silaswolfe381]

Since you didn't get an answer here, I would ask a forum or even a reddit community. It's actually a pretty interesting question

[@davidkennedy1077]

Your channel is superb. I look forward to binge watching all of your vids, as I know nothing about aero but have always been interested. You really know your stuff and are great at explaining (even I'm starting to understand, and I'm thick as $%#@!)

[@224rebels]

1) When you speak of 10mm-20mm of rake from the front to rear axle, do you mean the rear should be 10mm-20mm higher off the ground than the front? 2) How do you determine high and low pressure areas of the bonnet?

[@TassieLorenzo]

Low pressure will be near the middle of the bonnet, high pressure will be at the front and back (stagnation points).

[@boblast5582]

on a 150whp 1130kg track car (NC Miata), do you think there's more time to be gained with adding downforce or reducing drag?

[@billyjack70]

Depends on the track. I'd aim for maximum drag reduction then a little downforce here and there where you can with little drag penalty. An airdam that is sealed and flat under with a nice efficient airfoil at a very low angle of attack (0*) would probably be all you can use at most tracks. Best time spent would be reducing drag though.

[@NigelRichardson]

Made the video! 4:15 and 6:15 baby!

[@adrlo]

Great video and explanation, especially to newbies like me :) About venting the engine bay, can you advise where are high pressure and low pressure zones? From the car you were showing in the vid, low pressure zones are the front half of the bonnet?

[@DavidKohout]

Soo that's extremely funny, I'm working on a custom bodykit, and I thought I should watch a video about aerodynamics while watching. at 0:50 I realized I kinda now what I'm doing because I'm working on 2009 Audi TT bodykit with a custom rear end/spoiler :D

[@silvenshadow]

I would love to see a basic walkthrough of your CFD software and workflow. Is that paraview?

[@CosmicSeeker69]

Kyle - loving your knowledgeable and informative presentations but,, can you explain one thing please - at 02:24 - is the skin-tight suit helping with her boundary layer air flow?? I'm sure that there's more than a few of us who'd be interesting investigating this situation more closely - keep up the exceptional work

[@chmandcrm]

This is the video I've been waiting for!!! Thank you so much! If I want more downforce primarily while cornering how would I go about that, is it just a shark fin down the middle?

[@waltersmith3165]

Very awesome content!

[@EliteMacFreak]

When you say "don't box them in" at 5:50 in the context of canards, are you saying don't put endplates on canards, or don't block the trailing edge off next to the tire?

[@rafaeln21]

Hi, Could you explain a bit more about engine hood/bonnet venting, best places and the area near the windshield Thanks

[@stinkbra]

Kyle, Could you explain the characteristics of attachment on curved diffusers. I understand the usual angle range linear diffusers use, but could you recommend radius for curved diffusers? Thanks very much for your videos.

[@billyjack70]

Depends on the car and how much energy the flow has as it enter the diffuser. That's something you can only fine tune in a wind tunnel.

[@GruntyGame]

6:41 A short clip of Peter Dumbreck's CLR crash would be well suited here.

[@Yakushi0Mikatsu]

Isnt it called "CLK GTR" though?

[@ShahidAli-ob5jl]

Great vid!

[@danielstojanovski7869]

Great video and channel by the looks of it. Just subscribed. What is your background? Mech Eng and FSAE?

[@svoncampe]

I have a track-dedicated 350Z and would like to add a "smaller" rear wing but am concerned about the implications of doing so without also adding a front splitter. My Z has some aero mods but nothing major as well as significant weight reduction. Although power mods brought the hp to 290whp, in my mind it still does not seem powerful enough to justify big aero even with the weight reduction. Of course I could be wrong, but while a splitter might eventually happen, my ultimate goal with any mod is improvement and was wondering if a wing can help even if I run it without a splitter for a while. Ultimately, driving the car on the track will let me know how a wing improves (or not) the handling of the vehicle, but I'd like to have an idea of what to expect before undergoing to expense and effort. Thanks for whatever input anyone might be able to provide.

[@doctormoore5937]

Decent content! I need to add some downforce to the back of the car as it gets squirrely under high speed breaking! I have a standard impreza rear wing but think adding some rear diffuser would help, can you advise if just adding a decent bespoke rear diffuser up to the rear diff will make any difference (of course subject to angles and all that jazz) or if I need to flat bottom the complete underside of the car to feel any effect? PS car is used for fast street/ track use.

[@aphilosophicalnaturalist6245]

Would it be possible for active aerodynamics to create low drag for accelerating, high drag for braking and high downforce for cornering on the same part of an aero and with full aerodynamic vectoring ,plus add as least weight as possible? If this is practical, could it be possible to significantly improve the performance of a race car? If you can answer it, the proficient of most kind of race cars can be brought together.

[@handpaper6871]

Anything, including fully active aero, is possible. It just won't be allowed in any racing class, for reasons of cost, complexity, and safety.

[@drfresh1566]

What about aero for drifting? Do you know if anyone has tested what could be beneficial at those angles? As far as in a wind tunnel or a program? Been thinking of incorporating a diff cooler in the diffuser. Lol make the drag do some work if it's going to be there.

[@CosmicSeeker69]

interesting - my take as always been that; A) the speeds aren't high enough to build sustained downforce. B) that any wing that was generating DF would stall as soon as it got sideways to the direction of motion

[@boosthit811]

Can you do a video on inter cooler core thicknesses? I've read that air doesn't like to travel through cores that are too thick, over 75mm etc. Like in f1 the rads etc are usually large and thin. Yet in some drag cars (air to air) running crazy thick cores.

[@ImGeeish]

what is an example of low pressure exits from the engine bay? I have hood risers on my track car and the entire rear of the hood is exposed about 3 inches

[@dilysi156]

1 year later I still have the same question. I drive a fwd 60 hp car around the tracks. Topspeed around 160 km/h but I never reached above 135 on those tracks. Do little wings we see on the internet help providing stability or not? I'd love to know. Tx

[@georgewashington938]

when are you going to do a video about things applicable to the US? We don't have kilometres here.

[@slowpoke96Z28]

1:38, aero on commercial vehicles is important too lol.

[@ChainsawChuck13]

I can think of one reason for conservative/cosmetic/"street"-level aero on a car that's only used for low-end racing or doing stupid stuff on the street: a lot of older cars, especially economy cars, were poorly optimized and would start to get terrifying front-end lift around 100-110MPH. (So 160-180kmh) And then on the back end you had flow separation from steep rear windows & etc. so a small spoiler could be (and often was, from the factory) added to dam up the turbulent air over the decklid and invisibly "correct" the roofline. So on such a car, a common/off-the-shelf "steet" body kit can serve a purpose, even if it isn't producing significant downforce at the speeds where the car actually gets used. Supposedly this could be verified by comparing an early-70s Pontiac Trans Am with a similarly-powerful standard Firebird - the normal model would get floaty and sketchy at around 110mph/180kmh, while the T/A was steady at and beyond 140MPH/225kmh if you had the room to get it there. With modern cars, this seems to be getting fixed; people have clandestinely taken first-gen Hyundai Velosters to 150-160MPH (240-255kmh) and they are stable at that speed, which is one of the main reasons I decided not to bother with a body kit on mine. (The other reasons are that there are very few old-school "cosmetic" kits for this car, even fewer that aren't hideous and/or wouldn't be a performance downgrade, and I don't really want a splitter right now because of vulnerability to rough-road damage and the fact that this car has enough trouble in deep snow already)