La Mulana and Cryptic Puzzle Nightmares

In this video, I'm puzzled
Consider supporting what I do: / zyllius
All music is from the La Mulana OST.
Dedicated to No.415719318 who has my undying love for supplying the image in the thumbnail

[@DoshDoshington]

I didn't notice until someone pointed it out, but the song at 58:08 is in Bb minor, not Eb minor. I'm an idiot and misspelled it on my script and didn't notice because E sounds kind of like B, lmao.

[@lorenzopugno9953]

Dude after a month went and correct himself, on a 1:16:23 minute video for a B, truly we don't deserve you.

[@vicavintila4368]

Dargint versatile gustig donne moi

[@vicavintila4368]

I guiletto

[@vicavintila4368]

I guilleto

[@Pridetoons]

BTW that Flare Gun would have be perfect for Ellmac. ☹️

[@thepersonwhocomentz]

To be quite frank, in hindsight, the fact that you can kill a cosmic civilization-creating deity's very soul with a revolver and a single pocket full of rounds is kind of hilarious.

[@bugjams]

When your ancient civilization's holy all-powerful spirit deity couldn't predict the invention of gunpowder and bullets.

[@mrfrost6211]

​​@Zoomer Stasi because a wizard did it Not a joke, for some reason adding a man in a robe who says fancy sounds somehow makes it more legitimate to many

[@sonic1602]

La Mulana may have made man, but Colt made 'em equal.

[@Shenaldrac]

@ZoomerStasi Because it's a _magic_ halberd. Duh. Which means that this diety can be defeated by regular old bullets, utterly mundane. Unless.... unless _all bullets are actually magical!_ Oh my god!

[@Alexander59059]

@@Shenaldrac Honestly, gun powder being accidental magic would be a pretty cool explanation for why a mundane weapon works on magical creatures.

[@suppermike777]

Fun fact, the easiest way to solve the endless corridor symbol puzzle is to turn off the translation software, because the untranslated text has all the symbols

[@SBaby]

It also helps that there are two solutions now, and not just one.

[@eba6949]

sounds more like accidental good game design of their madeup language being consistent than an intended solution

[@WispyWoodsman]

The best thing about Hell Temple is that enemies drop a lot of exp so your health refills frequently. It won't even let you die.

[@wymarsane7305]

Oh it'll let you die alright. Just rarely by methods preventable by having a health pool.

[@Roanan.]

Guess they took the hell part to heart.

[@AliceErishech]

The best part is that it's slightly less trolly but mandatory and significantly more tedious in the sequel. And for awhile after launch broken as well. It has a bunch of more difficult refights of minibosses which aren't supposed to reappear after you've beaten them but did until they fixed things. The worst part being that the worst room in the game that Dosh hated so much has one of the most difficult minibosses as a penalty for failure. Even with all the equipment and upgrades in the game, it's difficult. And since it reappeared even after defeating it, you'd have to fight it every single time you failed at the hell room. It was a total freaking nightmare and was a major part of the reason I ended up rage quitting the game only a handful of rooms from the end and never bothered getting back to it.

[@prestonezzell9250]

I'm so glad they gave the swimsuit extra animations, that caught me off guard and i couldn't stop laughing

[@codesymphony]

the montage of deaths at the boss, then going to buy a pistol from a shopkeep and then going back to the boss to shoot it and finally win, without word of narration is comedic gold

[@Dogdogdogdog1234]

Love the variety content, of course factorio is great but I enjoyed the towerclimb video most so far

[@davidreeding9176]

Bro same

[@Thenormal880]

Same here bro makes good content

[@elchicofemenino]

the marrow one was also great, tbh at this point i like his non-factorio videos more than factorio ones

[@bendymelons1133]

@@elchicofemenino me too

[@archniki_]

I just feel bad for people who ve got trapped in one game by Algo

[@memesrdreams4854]

There's something about the way Dosh writes and narrates these that makes them some of the best "Sit down and vibe" type videos out there.

[@GEB_Rosee_PPS]

yup. hes got a very... calming(?) voice id say.

[@GEB_Rosee_PPS]

wait, is that.. is that a Bismarck pfp? 🤝based

[@memesrdreams4854]

@@GEB_Rosee_PPS My man.🤝

[@nolankanski9116]

He's pretty different in what he does, but I'd recommend Thorhighheels' videos. He's got a similar vibe, and also talks about lots of obscure and interesting games, and his outlook is just so unique and entertaining; he'll love a game that's mostly unplayable as long as like, the rain in game gives good vibes. Good guy, basically.

[@memesrdreams4854]

@@nolankanski9116 Went and gave his stuff a look and I saw he has a video on liminal spaces in games. Just like that, I'm sold.

[@SrPelo]

DUDE!!! I REMEMBER READING THE FUCKIN HARD MODE TOMB AND COMPLETED THE GAME 100% BECAUSE I WAS MAD AT IT!!! really good game!!! need to play La Mulana 2

[@franciasii2435]

Play more bomberman

[@RPGMaker2003]

My very first time playing I activated Hard Mode by accident, and I felt compelled to kill every boss without sub-weapons (fuck you Palenque)

[@iWindBlade]

this is somehow so in character

[@TsunogaiDanshaku]

As a huge fan of both games, my opinion is incredibly biased, but if you liked the first one I highly recommend the second. I definitely wouldn't call it "better" than the first game, but I wouldn't call it "worse" either. 2 does enough to feel like it's own thing while still staying true to the design identity of the first game, both in its strengths and in its flaws. But I know for a lot of fans, myself included, those flaws are part of what we love about them..

[@CarlosSilva-bh4bi]

Same, Mom destroyed me in two hits even with the armor, felt like thanos after she fell, like, damn, after I activated the tomb, I were like "Duck it, I'm not reseting" (had 2 hours of gameplay without saves on my back)

[@Fenns100]

Seeing the games Dosh likes to play I feel like Noita would be right up his alley. As it contains cryptic riddles and a highly complex wand building mechanic

[@christophermoore6110]

Aren’t the riddles unsolved? Or is it only the final ones?

[@Shadethe13th]

And it can be hell at first, even more in line.

[@Vienuolee]

Actually I got quite a lot of noita vibes from this game

[@riddixdan5572]

Seeing a noita play through would be dream

[@irregularstuff5290]

@@christophermoore6110 only last two, eye puzzle and cauldron room puzzle.

[@SnancyNegative]

Oh, uh, the game isn't unbeatable if you don't activate the model plane. You can grab a respawning spare Ankh Jewel in the room to the left of where you get dumped out, but only if you used it on Palenque's ankh and didn't activate the plane. Source: I was a dumb sausage who played through La-Mulana in my freshman year of college while commuting home on public transit.

[@LunarLemonade]

I and a few other people experienced an odd, rare glitch with the pochette key that made the game unbeatable, before even fighting Palenque. Something with progress flags being set in the wrong order. I wonder if he ran into that same issue?

[@Slain087]

In case you wanted to know how 33:48 was supposed to be solved: The tablet asks you for the name of a specific god. You can learn the god's name in the Graveyard of the Giants, but to figure out the _symbols,_ you specifically need to read that tablet *without* the Glyph Reader software equipped.

[@ienjoy7819]

thats kinda cool

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

Oh, I guessed that you were supposed to spell the name of the unnamed, but I didn't think about that. So I just brute forced the puzzle.

[@ChibiKami]

I managed that one because I manually transcribed and filled the blanks on ancient la mulanese from the partial tablet translations, which in turn gave me a complete alphabet (except for the letter Z)

[@fabioalanmp]

The unnamed entity is "Mü". There is a table I dunno where which says that Mü is the unnamed one, so you break the two characters that compose that name in la-mulanese

[@odrithingamajig]

A little note with the Lost unlock method from Isaac getting datamined, in Rebirth's first DLC there was another ARG added for unlocking the character 'Keeper', which was successful in not getting datamined - though this was because it was largely done outside of the game, with things like a note left on the Santa Cruz boardwalk, some voicemails, a strange Twitter account, etc. (though a few things were found via the game, like the number 109 appearing in a lot of very specific circumstances), so it seems in this day and age one of the only ways to successfully perform an ARG in a game is to do it outside of the game.

[@MetalMockingjay]

The Lost ARG also had external clues. The main difference is that Ed didn't add Keeper into the game until the puzzles were solved, so there was literally no data to mine.

[@lancesmith8298]

@@MetalMockingjayAlso, this ended up inspiring the Dataminer item, a deliberately crap active item that has ARG-related flavor text and literally leaves no stone unturned (by flipping all sprites clockwise).

[@lancesmith8298]

Case in point, Animal Well (no direct spoilers here). While the full suite of puzzles, understandably, got solved in a matter of a week, some ARG elements are deliberately not possible alone. One puzzle for the halfway point of the madness has one clue that is unique to each install of the game, meaning that solving the ARG would require a group of over 20 people minimum. One secret to unlock another secret properly involves doing something that requires an action in real life, but not something hard that you have to go more than a couple miles to get it if you lived in a developed country. And even then this community ended up figuring out how to wrongwarp in this game while figuring that all out

[@DoshDoshington]

I got a new mic. I hope you like it. And if you don't have the time to finish this one, do yourself a favor and skip to 1:14:50

[@saheilaanarzee5552]

thats an epic reward but your vids are awesome so guess amma have to watch the rest anyway :)

[@oniki_]

do noita next :) seems up your alley

[@graour]

@@oniki_ I agree with this guy, you definitely got the wits to solve most if not all of noita's secrets on your own. Btw, one of the secrets of the game has yet to be solved because the community can't seem to datamine the solution. Apparently one guy figured it out and gave some cryptic hints but I guess that's something you'd have fun trying to solve :D Also, you'd enjoy the wand building system a lot

[@cooldud7071]

I was thinking of this game recently and now you've made a video on it. I'm going to be honest with you, I avoided the sequel because the main character is a woman.

[@essidus]

It is fantastic. And as always, your delivery is perfect

[@ClexYoshi]

I feel like that's a big rookie mistake that a lot of people make, and it's always my biggest suggestion to people; ALWAYS FIGHT GUARDIANS ONLY AS A LAST DITCH EFFORT. Outside of Amphisbaena, the bosses often feel like they are balanced for you having explored multiple areas that you have access to before you have to do it. If you know what you are doing, you can even have most of the Sacred Orbs, quite a few of the weapons, and a few really handy combat tools such as the Spaulder and possibly even the faerie clothes before ever being forced to fight a single guardian if you REALLY milk it.

[@calvindang7291]

I mean... apart from Sakit, I think all of them are reasonable to do at the time you unlock them, and give you something useful enough. (The last three maybe not, but by then you probably have most of the upgrades anyway.) also the spaulder is pretty useless

[@Pihutihutihutijay]

I disagree, mostly because of the sphinx statue.

[@reggieisnotadog4841]

I watched a let's play of this where someone had this philosophy and it just seemed like such a boring way to play. All of the bosses seem tuned to be fought as and when you bump into them, going back later just sees them die in a few hits as you stand in their faces tanking damage and swinging the axe.

[@ClexYoshi]

@@reggieisnotadog4841 sometimes there's a real joy in being OP for a boss or seeing the challenge in hat you can get away with before having to beat a boss. Other times, you're trying to get the "I only need one finger!" achlievement where you aren't allowed to use Sub-weapons to defeat the Hard Mode bosses. Like, even at full power, Sakit will house you in a one-finger playthrough.

[@Lily-white]

​@@ClexYoshi been doing that on my first run, mother I could almost beat but with phase 2 feeling like pain on one finger (pistoled it to practice rest of phases) I've been doing hell temple on and off so I could use fairy clothes (assuming they affect mother ofc)

[@alloounou6900]

That moment you went for the gun is perfectly relatable.

[@PrinceSilvermane]

What's funny about the bosses is that they're not even required for progression up until the final bit. Most guides recommend flat out ignoring them until you get all the combat upgrades.

[@SBaby]

Yeah, if you really want to just take the absolute long way around.

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

Don't you need to defeat Viy to open the tower of the goddess? And to be able to fight Viy, you need to beat Bahamut.

[@karanojin]

@@legrandliseurtri7495 technically you can open the key gate in chamber of extinction and go in tower of the goddess from the gate of time, which is a valid pathway in the game's logic. but otherwise i think having the bronze mirror panes able to be opened (by defeating the bosses) is kind of an important part of playing the game as intended

[@CaptainRasmot]

To clarify on the Palenque battle, it's meant to be a riff/recreation of an infamous mural known as the "ancient astronaut" due to it looking like a man in some sort of spaceship. It's actually kinda the basis for a LOT of Ancient Aliens and all that. Kinda funny that they turned it into a Shmup though xD nice little wink n nod.

[@Blar408]

The first time I heard of La-Mulana was also the very first Let's Play I ever watched. It was the original version recorded by Deceased Crab. The updated version looks nice, but I couldn't play it without first gluing myself to a strategy guide.

[@Pihutihutihutijay]

hey la-mulanites

[@snarkycrow]

You too? Damn man, I still remember seeing that let’s play back when I was in middle school.

[@bubbadoo10]

@@snarkycrow Saaaame, I think I was barely in High School

[@Holgast]

That's a name I haven't heard in a long time.

[@MechWarrior894]

Same

[@convincingmountain]

i love how you both 1) show me, a la mulana luddite, how the whole game plays out while also 2) discussing the ideologies and philosophies of "secrets and puzzle games". really nice stuff dude lovin it

[@deusexmaximum8930]

What does it mean if you're a la mulana "luddite"? Google says luddite is someone who opposes technological advancement.

[@tepig2828]

So excited to see you playing this, I love the La-Mulana Duology.

[@brandongreen4439]

Something I remember about the topic of “secrets” is what Swankybox did with Zardy’s Maze, by holding the keys so to speak and sharing the secrets only when the community has done what’s needed rather than leaving it where code diggers can find.

[@CrowQQ]

My favourite memory of playing La-Mulana was making a complete map by screeshotting each map tile and piecing them together in MSpaint while recording all tablet texts in a text file. It was very satisfying to see tablets referring things and then starting to order your notes based on keywords like "the twins" or "mother" and eventually piecing everything together from your own notes. Tho there is some absolute fucking bullshit like pressing down on the pot in mausoleum that warps you into springs where the hint is that one of the giants point at it Reeeeee. La-Mulana works in it's core if you as a player are willing to solve and brain the shit out from your own notes no matter how bullshit it's gets. I got walled by La-Mulana 2 and set it down.... Maybe it's time to start and try again.

[@calvindang7291]

Thar kind of approach works *really* well for la-mulana since most of the puzzles aren't as bullshit. Though you need the images on the tablets too, so a text file might be a bad choice.

[@VileLasagna]

As someone who played La Mulana a long time ago and loved it, I agree with a lot here actually. I did like how the game weaves all of its puzzles into its lore and is very deliberately obtuse but in a way that feels coherent. These things are weird because La Mulana is 7 different religions stacked on top of each other and you're figuring out what they found important. It's fantastic. But it does get VERY MUCH unreasonable. It's hard in frustrating ways a lot of the time. You didn't even mention the morning star puzzle which is complete BS. I went quite far into La Mulana without a guide but once I started looking things up, I stopped feeling bad about looking things up. I love this game and I hate it and it's fantastic. Also screw Bahamut

[@treehann]

I agree, it’s one of the best love hate games. Personally it’s not my favorite game to play, but it’s my absolute favorite game to study as a game designer. It’s quite unique. Also the soundtrack (especially the original) kicks serious ass

[@alacer8878]

Oh JOY, another video! Love the hour+ ones. You know you're a good content creator when a guy comes for the Factorio, and stays for all the rest. The way you talk, present information, and edit is just so enthralling.

[@NorthGameGod]

Wow, La-Mulana, and Hell Temple included. My favorite Metroidvania ever. You sir have very good taste, specially in the hardcore stuff. BTW: The first La-Mulana, the freeware one, it's even harder. You have to do things like beating an score in a shoot 'em up minigame in one of the Hell Temple's puzzles.

[@skelehedron3070]

I love this game so much, and I get super excited whenever someone even mentions the name, so it's awesome that you made this video. I first played it almost exactly 2 years ago, and it was and still is one of my favorite metroidvanias. I really like how you talked about it, really making it reach a bigger audience. Though the game was actually quite popular around its release it is sadly mostly forgotten aside from the odd speedrun or two, so it's really nice to see a larger creator talk about it. Also, the soundtrack is another thing that is absolutely amazing. It is a top tier game OST, and everyone should go and listen to it, or just play the game and hear it. it is also one of the few games where the story is directly connected to the puzzles, and you need to pay attention to said lore to beat the game. I also like how it stops you from brute forcing puzzles. Rather than just making it impossible to hit certain areas, it fucking kills you. I honestly just love this game, and wish it were more well known

[@ierdandrakslei1176]

So many little odd diamonds like Mulana deserve to be recognise, even for someone like me who's more into action games. His videos can't make anyone unhappy or tilted, so seeing Dosh covering this classic is basically a chistmas present.

[@skelehedron3070]

@ierdan Draksleï Exactly. The only crime he committed with this was talking about the OST without even mentioning the mosoleum of the giants theme (grand history). His review does criticise the game in the ways that make sense. I was only able to do about 50% of puzzles without help (generous estimate), which further proves the nightmare that is the puzzles. I still think that the game is amazing even with those valid points, as the positives far outweigh the negatives. I can see why people don't enjoy the game though. It is all a matter of opinion

[@aleh9814]

I enjoyed La-Mulana 1 and 2 so much that it basically ruined the entire genre for me. I wasn't able to feel the same level of enjoyment and satisfaction while progressing in other metroidvanias as I did after figuring a puzzle to unlock the entrance to a new area or a new item that was the thing I needed for another puzzle. They just had the perfect combinations of things I never knew I wanted. It really pains me they went mostly under the radar. Luckily a few monts ago the devs won a contest held by Konami last year where they pitched the idea for a remake of Maze of Galious (probably the main inspiration behind La-Mulana) and got both greenlit and a 2 million yen price, and a potencial funding of around 30 million yen at most. So I'm hoping they will give us another experience like this.

[@ierdandrakslei1176]

@@aleh9814 yo seriously ? Well hopefully they don't get the rug pulled under their feet, big companies and all.... And with how Konami's reputation is what it is.... well we'll see, hopefully they manage to make a come back. Both for the devs and konami itself since there's the resurgence of classics, which is pretty nice for people like me who couldn't afford these at the time.

[@aleh9814]

@@ierdandrakslei1176 I hope so too! This contest was specifically aimed at indie developers wanting to revive older Konami IPs. There were also 4 runner-ups which also got some money (albeit less), which their proposed projects were related to Star Soldier, Parodius, Twinbee and Pooyan. I think NIGORO will probably work in the game even if Konami only gave them the rights to work with the IP (they showed a bit of gameplay on a prototype, IIRC it even used some sprites from La-Mulana as placeholder for items). But yeah, let's hope they don't get shafted with the availability of funds if they end up needing them.

[@Freezezonian]

One of my favorite descriptions of La-Mulana comes from DeseasedCrab and goes mostly something like this "La-Mulana stole your bike when you were a kid and then proceeded to ride it in front of your house every day." I don't remember exactly the wording but that was basically it. Also I personally need to sit down and suffer through the sequel some more. thanks for another awesome vid.

[@limeylime8027]

The way you say hair when describing Tiamat is just perfect ngl

[@balazshrivnak1578]

I was on the fence on playing La Mulana having been a bit lost in the beginning and then putting it down for a few months. Thank you for convincing me not to pick it up again!

[@Null_Experis]

There was ONE Sierra Adventure game series that managed to make a good puzzle game, and that was the Quest for Glory series. The reason why is because it was an RPG/Adventure game hybrid with 3 playable classes and every puzzle in the games were logical, and often had 2-3 solutions to them catering to the strengths of the 3 playable classes. Fighters solve problems with brute strength and physical prowess. Magic Users solve problems with spells or intellect. Thieves solve problems by using tools, tricks, or avoiding them entirely through stealth or dexterity. A good example of this is a quest to find the healer's ring, a job posted in the adventurer's guild and a perfect beginner quest in the first game. You go to the guild, sign up, read the board, and it tells you what the problem is and who to talk to about it. Outside the healer's hut is a bird nest with a lizard-bird in it that chirps periodically and moves, but also a small gold flash appears in the nest. How do you get the ring? Fighter: Throw rocks at the nest to knock it down Mage: Use a Fetch spell to grab the nest and bring it to you Thief: Just climb the tree, shimmy across the branch and pick up the ring.

[@kamikeserpentail3778]

I feel like I had double jump at Bahamut. But you can get stuff in such different orders in this game. I love how Mother's final form pulls a Megaman on you. And how Hell Temple's music burns into your mind so thoroughly, any time in the future where you find yourself repeatedly attempting something fucking impossible, that music comes on. If you catch the flu and time seems to stretch on as you sit there suffering, Hell Temple's music will start playing.

[@josecoronadonieto6911]

Treasure sealed off?

[@trustytrest]

As always, at the end, there is only Hell Temple.

[@marydegroof6759]

44:44 "I feel bad for you if you had less than 32 health when that happened." That was me. Had to do the whole fight over again. Hurts.

[@Varja376]

i was fully expecting every single npc at the end to wear that swimsuit and was incredibly disappointed it didnt happen. yes, every single one of them. yes, including that one.

[@Kuikkamies]

La-Mulana is without a doubt one of the top games when it comes to trusting the player and nothing holding anyone's hand. A true adventure.

[@Zmax15]

This is THE La Mulana video. It's my only connection I have to the game, but good fucking job making a video that captures some feeling of playing it. Godspeed.

[@CaptainAOrange]

One good example of a game that feels complete while hiding most of its content behind secrets is Noita. The eye puzzle has been know for years, and is a major focus of the community, and yet it still has almost no visible progress towards a solution.

[@Yoxlos]

The voice actor for a Mirosoft Excel tutorial has brought us another video. I kid of course, really been enjoying the factorio and other content

[@themettking]

La Mulana is one of the first let’s plays I watched on KZbin, so it has a special place to me. I’be actually been trying to see just how free the game is by getting as much as possible without killing a boss. Currently I’m trying to climb the Tower of the Goddess to get that grail point and access to the doors up there. The problem is you need the double jump to do it reasonably but you need the serpent staff from the moon temple and you can’t access the bottom half until you kill the temple of the sun boss.

[@ladyabaxa]

I know this comment was posted months ago but in case you're still stuck on this problem or someone else who is reads this here I go. There's another way into lower Moonlight (aside from raindropping down) via a left-right door connecting Graveyard to Moonlight. In Graveyard it is the door next to the grail tablet. To reach the tablet you jump through a fake wall section of ice pillar up and to the left allowing you to fall and use a weight to open the gate next to the tablet. When you enter Moonlight from this door it will look like you can't go any further but just walk forward and you'll find the two ends of the room are connected by warps. This is a nod to how in the original game no one did the puzzle to open that room because it is super annoying requiring you to already have access to both sides.

[@themettking]

@@ladyabaxa I appreciate the idea and it could work. But now I have to ask how to get into Giant's Graveyard? I can't enter normally without killing Saket, Gate of Illusion requires completing the Fruit of Edin puzzle which requires access to Temple of Moonlight's bottom half, which negates the Serpent staff/feather problem, and the only other entrance it is to climb the eastern tower, which is where I'm currently stuck. I'm always glad to get new ideas but it seems like without climbing I won't be able to access much more.

[@whynotanyting]

48:05 I was browsing through Rebirth's folders when I bought the DLC (my game save didn't transfer), and I found a bunch of .a files and a readme saying that the files were intentionally made that way to prevent players from spoiling secrets for themselves. Really cool that he went through all that trouble.

[@trippydippiehippie3958]

Goddamn, just gonna throw an hour and sixteen minute long video at us like it's just another Tuesday. I have to say, even if 90% of people don't bother to watch the videos all the way through, the effort and sheer time-investment of every single one of your videos is astonishing. These videos don't even deserve "Veiws" this shit should be on pay-per-view. This is the type of of effort that novel writers go through. "Underrated" doesn't even begin to describe your talents, in proportion to the quality of your videos you are practically *invisible*. Godspeed. You magnificent bastard.

[@lordofcringe2189]

A La Mulana review in 2023? Unfathomably based I must say. I really enjoy watching your vids on more obscure titles and needless to say I am ecstatic to see you review a game that has insta-kill deathtrapped its way into my heart. Can't wait to see more reviews from you .

[@smile--]

The fact that the hardest secret in the game is a thong is fucking hilarious

[@cd2220]

You know I absolutely adore this game. I've beaten it in under 5 hours. I got the under 10 hours achievement while also going for "Only One Finger" as they were my final two challenges without abusing any glitches (god damn does skipping to Tower of the Goddess open up SO much of the game by getting you to the feather) But I can at least recognize I have a little bit of Stockholm Syndrome from it. You learn to deal with all of it's eclectic intricacies and once you know the game it is SO much fun to bend it to your will once you really know the ruins. You are right though. This game design is INCREDIBLY player unfriendly. I do honestly recommend players who just want to experience it to just use a walkthrough as the one thing I disagree with this dude on is that the controls aren't bad. They're just rigid in a Castlevania way and learning them is quite satisfying. The game can be fun purely through navigation and through enjoying the aesthetics/audio/story. It's the way I originally beat the game and I just felt the world was really fun to see and playing game was fun. Sure it's not as liberatingly mobile as Mario or Celeste but just because the game expects you to learn its physics rather than press direction to move wherever you want doesn't mean it was designed poorly. A lot of the games puzzles/skill checks are based around your movement abilities

[@artey6671]

Stockholm syndrome might actually be a fitting term for this game. A few weeks ago I came to the conclusion that I love this game, but I hate it more than I love it. And when I see it in Steam, I still kind of wanna go back to it. I disagree with some of the other things you said, though. I have beaten the original (with a guide, obviously) and roughly knowing the puzzles makes it less interesting to go through the world, I think. Especially in the end when you're constantly revisiting places you've been to over and over again. Using a guide in the remake (yes, even after beating the original, I couldn't beat the remake because it changed some puzzles) makes it so tempting to give up immediately when you don't know where to go. And playing on tracks isn't fun. In fact, I gave up on the game after beating the 8 bosses because I remember the mantra puzzles to be so tedious that I couldn't bring myself to do it again. For the controls, they were made more user-friendly in the remake. The original, which has almost exactly the same controls as Maze of Galious, controls quite a bit harder, but I kind of like that. Speaking of which, the developers of La-Mulana are working on a remake of Maze of Galious. I'm curious how that will turn out.

[@kamikeserpentail3778]

I recommend not using a guide. You don't get any of the true experience if you use one. But then you'll solve things out of any guide's orders, and when you need help, good luck even finding what you need in a guide.

[@artey6671]

@@kamikeserpentail3778 Well, how far did you get without a guide? If you beat the game without one, then I salute you. Sadly, I didn't even get close, even though I tried. I agree that playing this game on rails defeats the purpose and isn't any fun, which is why I eventually stopped. However, I don't blame anyone for wanting to beat this game because that's ultimately the goal. I eventually gave in because it's so tempting to look up what you're supposed to do. And yes, I regret doing that. When I get to the sequel, I'll do my best to not do that. And if you didn't know: The developers are working on a remake for Maze of Galious.

[@Uristqwerty]

Here's a thought that just came to me, a day after watching: Looking up a hint or a guide is a form of *fine-grained difficulty slider* for puzzle games. It's hard to forget the insights involved in solving a puzzle entirely, so if you play through an easy version you can't exactly go back and do a hard-mode playthrough, since *any* knowledge overlap at all instead turns it into a medium difficulty. So: You always have the option to seek out community-sourced information at precisely the point you're truly stuck, yet if you're careful not to read too much else, the rest of the game remains at its default setting. In essence, if your goal is to make exploration and discovery themselves the puzzle, overshooting on difficulty is reversible, but undershooting permanently affects players' experience. Even with randomized components, the player can pick up on meta-rules, knowing what sorts of clues to pay attention to, since it's a subtly-different sort of gameplay to pure logical reasoning. As for data-mining, Steam has password-protected Beta versions, which could at least keep the existence of secret condition checks hidden until at least one player has puzzled out the first steps naturally. Or something innocuous like a shader effect that subtracts one texture from another can cause "random" noise in two different images to cancel out in-game, without looking significant in the raw files.

[@PointsofData]

But if someone is playing a puzzle game, they're playing _for the puzzles._ If they continuously have to look up solutions they're going to get frustrated, drop the game and look up the lore elsewhere if they want to find that out. Then that experience is ingrained in their mind for any future releases. So yeah, walk-throughs and such are valuable resources, but you should be designing a game with the idea that a reasonable, average person can solve these puzzles by themselves _unless_ your entire shtick is an ARG or you're going for BOTH the hard-core puzzle lover niche AND the trial and error masochist niche. The rest of the game being at it's default setting isn't quite true either, as games tend to ramp up in difficulty/complexity as they near the end OR I have seen games vary in difficulty throughout because of bad balancing/not thinking things through. So that's entirely dependant on both the talent of the creators and their intent.

[@aliasmcgames]

@@PointsofData there's no shoulds in game design. If you feel frustrated enough to drop the game, then it means the game is not for you. And that's OK! There are other games out there that will suit you better. No need to turn everything into a homogeneous mush to make your game marketable to everyone. Let fresh, different experiences like La-Mulana exist.

[@rjjm88]

I think you hit the nail on the head. By making each room a puzzle, you can look up JUST that room. I think that's one of the reasons why Talos Principle is one of my absolute favorite games. Since each puzzle is it's own individually labeled thing, you can look up just that puzzle and not spoil the entire game. One of the reasons I didn't mind using a guide with La Mulana is because you still have to do the thing. Knowing which switches to press and what items to use where helps, but you still need to actually make it to the switches, collect the items, and beat the enemies in the way.

[@whynotanyting]

If insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results, then this game is a mental institution.

[@robertjohnson9187]

Being able to call out what scales a music piece is in and what emotions they evoke is pretty badass.

[@HorkSupreme]

One of the best games, learned about it from DeceasedCrab when youtube was still a toddler.

[@JammingGerald]

One of my favorite games! I watched Deceased Crab and Mikenmonic do a playthough of this ages ago and fell in love with it! Such a good game with lots of little neat bits of real world history sprinkled in!

[@brodydunn9031]

that DC playthrough was a trip

[@procrasadini2283]

For the topic at around 50:00, have you heard of the Noita eye puzzle? It (and the cauldron) puzzle have remained unsolved since its launch. The devs themselves have said it easy too. Its only recently getting some (possible) progress to solving it in some cryptic emails. Idk much about programming but apparently the puzzle is baked into the engine which made datamining it hard.

[@chrom_mage]

the emaild were a scam

[@DoshDoshington]

Oh yeah, wish I remembered those while I was making the video. Afaik it's basically a series of encrypted images, but since it wasn't encrypted by the game and there's most likely no ingame flags that correspond to any part of it so datamining won't reveal anything because only the devs know how they encrypted it. It is interesting, but it's doubtful that is has any actual gameplay ramifications and is probably just a secret message.

[@MoronicError404]

HOUR LONG PUZZLE VIDEO? Hell yeah!

[@RainbowLizardOne]

La Mulana is one of those games where you can tell the developers are laughing at you, but in a really good way. Everything about the game is built to make you feel either really smart or really dumb when you finally make progress.

[@toodumb2live2]

Wasn't expecting a deep dive into the music like that an hour into a pretty game play/design focused video! Very cool

[@smolbirb4]

I absolutely adore your reviews just the same genre of games I enjoy great job!, I’ve rewatched your tower climb video several times bc it’s just so good

[@jirilaska9788]

Man I cannot wait for the TUNIC video now, keep up the good work.

[@freshlymemed5680]

Wasn't expecting this but your style of content is stuff I enjoy quite a lot. La Mulana is definitely up there as one of my favorite Metroidvanias, though I'll probably never beat it blind. Will definitely attempt to beat its sequel blind though, especially since it got a DLC.

[@JeffHikari]

I don't know how much you want to get into another crazy cryptic puzzle nightmare, but I would love to see a video on Void Stranger from you.

[@JudgeNicodemus]

I love the Factorio videos but watching you review something else you like is also highly entertaining.

[@ReLoaD94LPs]

i'm so happy to see a video from one of my favourite content creators about my favourite game. christmas came early this year

[@TheNextDecade244]

I just wanted to say that your videos have become some of my most rewatched vids in the recent years, both your Factorio content and your non-Factorio content. I've watched and/or listened to your Marrow review/playthrough/podcast at least thrice by now, for example. You've hit a rather incredible niche here with combining a review, a playthrough and a relevant podcast into one.

[@Electrosa]

The solution to "secrets in video games the internet won't crack instantly" these days often seems to fall into two broad categories. First, you have that good old standby, codes. Except, because of the internet, you have to make it a REALLY GOOD code, which often results in the devs overshooting and creating a code that is so utterly incomprehensible that it might never be broken. See: the eyes in Noita (although we might finally, FINALLY have some leads on those!). Codes are a personal favourite of mine, because even if they're completely fiendish to break, codes let you slap plain information straight into the game. Got some cool lore reveals? The secret to a new character or a new area? You can just flat out explain how it's done and then encode it! The other option is a bit broader but can generally be summed up as "perform a sequence of completely nonsensical actions". These tend to take just as long if not longer to solve than code secrets because there's a theoretically infinite number of actions you can demand a player take. Secrets like this range from something as mindless as "hit this wall thirty-eight times" to just downright moon logic strings that have absolutely zero chance of ever being done by mistake. The problem with "do this random shit" kind of secrets is that they loop straight back into what makes games like La Mulana so frustrating in the first place. Codes have a logic. Hints have a logic. ARGs, like someone else mentioned downthread as another rare internet-proof video game secret method, have logic. "Do this completely unintuitive, unrelated, often mind-numbingly long sequence of contextless actions"? There's no logic in that. This kind of secret doesn't actually give you the necessary tools to solve it. It almost becomes another kind of pixel hunt, demanding you to try every imaginable thing, except statistically even less likely to be solved than codes because of how many possible combinations there are.

[@copyriteinc309]

The single most satisfying moment I've ever had playing any video game was when I was able to solve the cipher in the infinite hallway area. So glad to see you cover this, and also cursing you for reminding me I still need to beat it.

[@D4n0w4r]

I never did play the remake. I learned about LaMulana originally from DeceasedCrab's videos and decided to try to play through it blind (for the most part). I think I quit shortly after getting the last whip upgrade and getting stuck in the Mother area. The game did make me interested in the MSX scene for a bit, and I ended getting a shoddy MSX1 off of ebay to play around with. Shame no one really seems to know about the computer around here. I've been to all kinds of video game conventions and shows, and not once have I encountered any MSX goods in the wild.

[@Oneriwien]

It's very rare for me to open an hour+ long video and actually set it as my main monitor. But here we are. Great stuff as always, Dosh!!

[@stupidgoop]

Oh hell yeah im 3 seconds into the video and its about a game ive actually heard of. Been really enjoying your video essay stuff. Marrow turned me towards your channel because it poked my "Old spooky newgrounds platformers" brain. Hope to see you keep makin these essays. They're infinitely rewatchable and super quality.

[@plasty8665]

Desperately been awaiting a new video, loved everything I’ve watched so far. Excited to see a review of this game since I tried to play it and then the puzzles made me drop it pretty fast since I was so confused

[@tobiassuarez948]

I sat through the whole thing unexplicably entertained. Dosh is really great at making his videos fun, despite whatever they happen to be about. And even when I won't play this, I'll still go ahead and listen to the OST just because of this video.

[@miikkab9716]

If I've ever had a love-hate relationship with any game, it's with La-Mulana. Past the halfway mark was pure suffering, but my respect for its uncompromising nature and the banger soundtrack kept me going and saw me through, even though I only solved maybe 40% of the puzzles on my own (and that's being generous). Really, I'd rather dip my balls into a wood chipper than play through La-Mulana again, but I'll always cherish my memories of it in a sort of masochistic way. Great video once again, Dosh.

[@Coreagrus]

This was a pleasant surprise. I only wish I had something to add, but you talked at length saying everything I would have about obscure puzzles, ARGs, and even the specific example of Edmund's ARG for The Lost. I love La Mulana. It's a one of a kind experience. I wish I could forget everything about it so I can experience it again, maybe not resorting to a guide as early that time. Guess I could always at least try to beat the sequel blind. This was great Dosh. Thank you.

[@chieflarry955]

try the sequel! its just as good imo and more feasable to complete without any outside help. (While still being really challenging)

[@Coreagrus]

@@chieflarry955 I own it. Just haven't gotten around to finishing it. I'm not really interested in it being easier to complete, and I heard it repeats some ideas, where new ones would have been appreciated, but I'm sure I'll like it all the same.

[@MrHamNuggget]

Let’s go! Another banger of yours, your vibes for doing this kind of stuff is fantastic and I hope for more as you’re able

[@tonyneko6227]

I have to thank you for making this video. I made it about 70% of the game with out a guild but I had a hard time getting back to the title. (I played it on psp/vita) so seeing all of these bosses and endings was a nice treat. Also hell looked mind numbing. Again thank you so much for playing this. Dang

[@pedroengelmann6798]

your runthroughs of obscure games are a pleasure to watch

[@half_pixel]

It's a very subtle edit that you made to the boss kill fanfare, making it skip to the end in a way that still works musically. That's some lovely attention to detail :)

[@christophermoore6110]

You’re the only person that actually gets me excited to sit down and watch an hour long video! Your writing and voice never fail to keep me interested the entire time!

[@Echricter]

Wanted a breakdown on this game after I heard about it recently and this video was exactly the kind of thing I wanted, I love this content, you’ve got a new sub in me, keep it up man

[@Kyfow]

Wonderful video, this game deserves all the love it can get! I hope you give La Mulana 2 a try as well. It solves a lot of the issues that many people had with 1, and overall it manages to raise the accessibility without compromising on the complexity, which is a pretty remarkable feat.

[@RealityMasterRogue]

Not enough mention of software combos just being a random thing that exist that is sometimes insanely useful. Like a once-per-PLAYTHROUGH revive

[@razorblaze4522]

I really love how you make the variety content very relaxed and entertaining while also using it to bring a question to the audience. It really sets your style apart from other content creators in a genuinely unique way

[@MrSmarticle7]

Love the long form coverage of obscure games. Towerfall was my favorite video from you, followed by this and the Zachtronics vid. Hope you keep making more.

[@conkcreet1344]

I know it can be hard on content creators, but i really do like longer videos. I have a hard time sleeping, and i fall asleep to videos . Your voice is very nice, and you dont scream. The longer video format allows me to fall asleep before the video ends. Also, as a plus to you creators, i tend to watch a video 5 or more times resuming where i remember hearing before i fell alseep.

[@yungoldman2823]

this was great! please keep covering obscure games with steep learning curves for as long as you still have fun doing so!

[@quagmire111100]

I keep watching these videos over and over cause your voice is so soothing to me. IDK why though so relaxing to put this in the background

[@sapphirenick4171]

I think my rewatch count for this video is in the double digits. Everything from the editing, commentary and the occasional absurdness of the game are just perfect for a long watch! Keep it up Dosh!

[@Nova225]

I love this video because it perfectly mirrors my first playthrough. I was able to get up to Sakit and Ellmac by myself while also completely missing Amphisbaena. I discovered Twin Labyrinths by beating Ellmac, and like you, I ignored Chamber of Extinction for the longest time because I thought "Surely the game wouldn't want me to wander in the dark!". By about the halfway point I gave up and started using a guide when I couldn't figure out something. Most of the time it was because I had read a tablet at the beginning of the game, forgot about it 5+ hours later, and now I'm wondering why I can't figure out the solution. IMO the best solution would be if the game could "categorize" the information you read. There's already some systems in place, like a piece of software that tells you which children wrote what tablets, but if the game could categorize things by area, like a tablet in Twin Labyrinths actually applying to say, Eternal Corridor, then you could reasonably figure out if you're missing something. And +1 for the "I thought I tried that already" especially when the game won't let you do the solution because you didn't do another puzzle / talk to someone else yet.

[@Ugu427]

Having done ~80% of the puzzle yourself is impressive ! I lost a lot of will power after the "search on bended knees for a single fallen item" puzzle and probably figured out less than half of the puzzle myself afterward... I felt kinda bad after finishing the game so I promised myself to never look up a guide in La-Mulana 2. It's less cryptic, but I'm still stuck :)

[@calvindang7291]

La-mulana 2 is fairly reasonable; it's pretty nice having none of the puzzles feel like complete BS to solve. Although there's still times I felt tempted to just hit every wall.

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

Honestly I thought the search on bended knee puzzles was pretty reasonable. Eden in general actually gave me much less trouble than earlier areas.

[@chieflarry955]

Awesome video! La Mulana is my fav game of all time so its great to see it getting more coverage.

[@kwahn106]

I just want you to know that I really liked this video, and that what you make has value. :D

[@kingkodes1007]

So for my personal experince with this game, I didn't look up a guide until I found Anubis but for the life of me couldn't figure out were the book of the dead was. When I check the guide I saw a mention of the holy grail and I wondered what the fuck that was. I spent about half the game wandering back and forth for hours HOURS and just assumed there wasn't a teleport yet and I would get it later on, only to find out I could've gotten the ability within the first 30mins. A game has never made me feel so much pain in my life 8/10

[@Zetimenvec]

A classic blind playthrough of Hell Temple is by DeceasedCrab. It's in the original version of La Mulana, so some of the puzzles are slightly different, but it was my first exposure to this game and his screams of agony are seared into my mind. I think halfway through he started to look up hints, but who can really blame him? If anyone hasn't seen it I highly recommend it. He's done multiple playthroughs of La Mulana, both versions, as well as the sequel and a randomizer, but the blind playthrough is classic. kzbin.info/www/bejne/p2iUeGeNg8aMmtk

[@TheResidence.mp4]

I desperately wish I could subscribe to this channel multiple times. You are a fantastic content creator, Dosh. From showing me and getting me addicted to Factorio to making enthralling variety content, you are top notch, my friend

[@NinjaPwnification]

Your factorio content is great, and how I found this channel, but I enjoy these type of videos the most. Keep it up!

[@hellothere3163]

MMM YES HE POSTED AGAIN

[@broomietunes5655]

to anyone watching this video who hasn't played this: I think the game has been sorely misrepresented here, and while I recognize it has plenty of flaws and it's not for everyone, don't let watching this convince you that you got the full experience. you should play it for yourself, preferably on the modern home console ports which have many improvements, to comprehend the full scale of how this game works. some puzzles have hints that i did not realize were in the game at all for over a DECADE, and it is beautiful. please play it.

[@BEkov-kd8cf]

I love that you cover these obscure and difficult games, it's like youre a video game aercheologist. Please do more videos like these, theyre absolute gold.

[@leahihi3379]

Started watching for the factorio, but these kind of videos are amazing. Every new dosh video is an event!

[@mistermamamia]

I think the appeal of these kind of games is not so much the relationship you develop with the game but the struggle itself. A genuine challenge designed for gamers who actually want to overcome something difficult and unforgiving. I mean think about the games you actually have a good time playing, you might recognize things about the mechanics, the story, or the combination of both that lead to the unique experience only games can provide in the first place, and you can pinpoint just what you like about them in first place. For hard games like dark souls, or with the context of a game like this, hard enough games, they provide a challenge that ultimately is fair, or have it feel that way. Progression is merely a matter of perseverance, and the only thing stopping you is a tug of war with the mechanics until you either find enough leniency to squeak through a fight, completely dominate it, or fall somewhere in between. Games like this though, have no mind for mechanical tug of wars and instead opt to have you bash your head over and over into nonsense until you figure something out or give up. Games like this exist to be a mountain for you to climb, and it's up to you to do it, and you get to choose how much help you get. No particular part of La-Mulana is meant to be fun in its own right. The platforming is frustrating, the combat is mundane, and the puzzles are beyond rational deduction to solve. It is meant to be an experience that you learn to overcome. The value is seen in that path of overcoming. From what I can tell, beating this game only really cements itself when you realize how much effort you put into it. You remember everything you had to go through, and your journey becomes an unforgettable experience. It's just like how it was mentioned that gamers don't really remember adventure games for being very good outright, but for forcing themselves to stick into a player mind, and that usually came in the way of having them spend way too much time on a stupid puzzle. This dumb thought about these kinds of incredibly difficult obtuse games is long enough, and I could say that they exist more so in spite of guides instead of in avoidance of them, but it's long enough. I doubt Dosh himself would read all of this but if a random guy does, tell him I thought it was another great video about a cool, obscure enough game and I really love hearing about them and thinking about their value as a gamer who appreciates challenge.

[@OldyAlbert]

La Mulana duology are my favorite games of all time (i'm 35 and playing games since like 8). I just never seen this much complexity and interwovedness in one game. Alot of metroidvanias are just kinda rooms with some enemies where i can't remember half of the levels, while i remember every room in every La-Mulana game. On puzzle-design i think game that is too hard/confusing is much better then too easy/simplistic. Since you can look up a guide if you really stuck at a confusing game, but nothing will make simplistic game less bland. La-Mulana is an adventure and a half and i don't want it any other way. And since there's no magical "golden middle" since people are different - i'd rather be confused then patronized by solving "put a square shaped figure in a square shaped hole"-level of puzzles. At this point don't do puzzles at all. Alot of people talk about accessability, that some games are just too much for some people, but why not also talk about boringability - that some games are too basic and therefore boring. And since puzzle-design like in La-Mualana can't scale with difficulty selection - i'd much rather have cofusing game. I would even assume this: Playing La-Mulana from minute one by the guide is more rich and complex gameplay then most metroidvanias out there. There's also basically no other games like it. Post-game of Enviromental Station Alpha maybe? But it's only because it's heavily inspired by LM. But it also impired by Fez so there's this crazy cryptic "community will solve it"-kinda puzzles that is not great for normal solo-play. But it still great, and again even solving half of ESA's endgame with a guide is not a trivial adventure at all.

[@kamikeserpentail3778]

I love that the areas connect with each other both in puzzles and lore. Too few Metroidvanias actually do... to the point where some games that are called Metroidvanias aren't because the areas don't actually connect much, llike the Ori games.

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

Well, you remember every room in La-Mulana because the map size is relatively small with a huge amount of variety. Think about it, 20 screens for an entire area is really little. Compare it to something like Super Metroid's Norfair, which has significantly more than 20 rooms and most of them are much bigger than one screen.

[@Rws4Life]

This was amazing. Such a good vid. Love the ramblings I knew you lost it the moment you started talking about the music Can't wait to see what you cook up for next time

[@matthew6466]

Thank you for exposing me to games I would never play or even otherwise see. I'm always excited when I see you have a new video.

[@justasnack0016]

Finally new Video 🔥