Landing a Taildragger, Wheel Landing Vs Three Point Landing. Which is best and Why.

[@PA-12pilot]

Joe, when i was young and told my old man I wanted to learn to fly, he handed me the book stick and rudder, I still have it. I think it’s the best “first book”

[@Bananasssssssss]

Such a good book. A little dry at times but really the essential guide as far as I’m concerned!

[@GRW2]

Awesome. And available on audible.

[@nickdonalds0546]

I definitely love the smoother, 2nd version you showed of the 3 point landing. That's perfection 👌

[@prodigalpilot]

Great video. I took my beloved champ on a low-speed ground loop on the way to Oshkosh in Portage, WI. I had a failure in the tailwheel, so when I lost airflow on the rudder, the tailwheel unlocked and free swiveled. I wasn’t fast enough on the breaks and it came around 180*. Low speed, no damage done except my ego 😀

[@Bananasssssssss]

If you're gonna ground loop, that's the way to do it, lol

[@shayefowler6651]

Stick and Rudder is a must read. As far as preference on landings, wheel landings are the best IMO on xwinds vs 3 point landings. If I’m flying into a grass strip with no xwind and I’m unfamiliar with the runway surface, I’ll 3 point it in every time. Both landings serve their purposes. 🤙🏼 As always, great video Joe and thanks for sharing this!!

[@Bananasssssssss]

Thanks Shaye! Yeah I love a good wheeler on a stiff crosswind. I'm actually surprised that I prefer three pointers when it's gusty, It's like I know the airplane is all over the place, I know I have less flight control authority but for some reason when I try too wheel it on when wind is really all over the place, I end up bouncing, or it just becomes a disaster, lol.

[@michaelrunnels7660]

@@Bananasssssssss A full stall 3-point landing vs a wheel landing is all about the airplane transitioning from being a flying machine to a ground machine. In a stall landing the airplane stops being a flying machine while still in the air. The flying surfaces don't work and your ground control devices (wheels) are in the air and don't work either. You have absolutely no control for a short period of time between the stall and the touchdown. That's fine on a calm day, but a strong direct crosswind during that short time will push the tail strongly to one side and there is nothing you can do about it. You have made the transition from a flying machine to a ground machine while still in the air with absolutely no control for a second or two. A wheel land allows you to keep the airplane as a flying machine even after you have the wheels on the ground. When you slow down with a wheel landing you slowly lose the air control surfaces while simultaneously increasing the ground control devices. If you lose all you flying control surfaces before you gain full control of ground control devices (full rudder against the crosswind with the tail still up), you increase power and abort the landing. A wheel landing allows a gradual transition from an air vehicle to a ground vehicle, allowing you to abort at any time. With a crosswing that is too strong for your airplane, a wheel landing gives you the chance to keep full control throughout the landing process and allows you to abort when you discover that the crosswind is too strong. A full stall landing under the same too strong crosswind conditions will ALWAYS result in a ground loop because you've given up any and all control for a short period of time while your tail is strongly pushed sideways by the wind.

[@martind181968]

One of the best videos for folks transitioning to taildraggers !!! Nicely done ! Wolfgang Langewiesche is smiling with approval !!! Seriously " Stick and Rudder ", I am very impressed you mentioned ( the author Wolfgang ) and have read it, it is a must read for any pilot. It is my go to in flying. Your application of which ( 3 point or wheel landing ) you use is about the same for me. I don't think I ever did many full stall landings actually in the cub, I think they were mainly the 3 point roll ons, they just felt better and I believe the cub liked it better, ( a little easier on those old bones ) .

[@Bananasssssssss]

Thank you very much! really appreciate it. Yeah I bought Stick & Rudder yearsss ago and go back through it often. Great stuff

[@clipwingcub]

Really good video with amazing footage. Although I prefer three pointers I agree you need both to be a complete tailwheel pilot. Also agree that first you need to master the three point and then “explore” the rest of the options. But what really amazes me is that you fly for a living, have a family, and do such a good job about divulgating Cub flying. Definitely you are my hero!

[@Bananasssssssss]

Thank you! Dunno what it is about the Cub but there are very few things in this world that bring me as much joy as that thing. I just want to share it and hopefully get others interested. I don't think we truly appreciate how lucky we are.

[@bobsakamanos4469]

Whether one learns the 3-point or wheel landing first depends on the aircraft. ... and the instructor, and the location.

[@PghGameFix]

I got my tailwheel endorsement at KLBE. It's an 8000' paved strip, and used a Stinson 108. 90% of my landings were wheel landings, and I only did a few 3 point there. On the last day, we went to a grass strip, and it was SO MUCH easier to land. LOL It helped me track, and made for a softer landing. I will say... my landings in general have gotten better since I got my tailwheel. Thanks for the vid.

[@gt-av8r]

This is what I've been looking for, someone to explain the difference and how it's done... thanks joe

[@Bananasssssssss]

Absolutely! glad I could help!

[@johnisley4578]

Firstly you are extremely brave with this subject, Yes I am currently on heavies and we all know that these are mainly trikes ! however, there would be many pilots, myself, old & bold that would disagree with you on many areas that you have mentioned. An example is: You mentioned that you carry out 3 point landings in gusty conditions, that I would never do, as what happens with the angle of attack? yes lift is increased, so a gust will no doubt lift your aircraft possibly out of ground effect, I have seen this occur more times than once, this would be unsettling. There are many other disagreements, however I won't go into them. In my spare time I do fly a decathlon and Pitts S2 and I can guarantee you that both aircraft are wheeled on in so called conditions. I am about to retire "approaching 65" so I'll have plenty more time at our local field ! Cheers.

[@Bananasssssssss]

Again, just technique, what works for me may not work for you. Also this is for anJ-3, not a pitts etc. and since you asked, if in a three point attitude and the Gust drops off, a simple, momentary increase of throttle would easily arrest the descent of a J3.

[@overthehorizonadventurerid108]

Just got my tail wheel endorsment and bought a 2007 American Champion Champ. Still doing mostly 3 pointers at this point but this week I'll start with some wheel landings as well. Thanks for the great video.

[@Bananasssssssss]

What I did initially was commit to basically “go-arounds” or touch & Gos. Basically just trying to make smooth contact with runway then go around until I got more and more comfortable and then would “land” hopefully that makes sense

[@overthehorizonadventurerid108]

@@Bananasssssssss Brilliant idea! thats a great way to pull all the pieces together so thats what I’m gonna do - thanks!

[@Bananasssssssss]

@@overthehorizonadventurerid108 absolutely!!

[@mikepinkston5963]

Great camera angles and explanation! I’m working on my tailwheel endorsement this week. My first 2 hours were in a J3 and next is a C140 and Champ. Being a visual learner this is very helpful. Well done 👍🏻.

[@toddpeterson7316]

Great video! Good to have both options in the TW. Thanks for taking the time to put this together. Your cinematic talent shows!

[@Bananasssssssss]

Thanks! Appreciate it!

[@jimmydulin928]

Thanks, Joe, for the excellent lesson and video. As you say the Cub is slow enough that a bit extra speed for the wheel landing is fine. They are, however, the same landing. Wolfgang's "all slowed up and ready to squat" is important either way as the Cub, actually any airplane has to be well below Vso in low ground effect to quit flying. The way I approached it in no or light wind in Cub, Champ, Luscombe, Taylorcraft, or Pawnee, was to decelerate to keep the apparent rate of closure at a brisk walk (apparent not real, same as in your auto coming into an intersection) so as to arrive at the numbers in a three point attitude all slowed up. Here I chose to either keep coming back on the stick to the stop, full stall, or to level the fuselage to wheel it on slow enough to not fly (not bounce.) Now with the strong crosswind. A Cub can be landed in a pretty strong crosswind straight down the centerline, but with the slow normal ground speed of a Cub and into a strong headwind component there is no need to go straight down the centerline. Make an apparent centerline between the downwind corner of the runway and the big airplane touchdown zone square. Ok, we have to use our imagination on grass. Anyway we can land at an angle to significantly reduce the crosswind component. Yes, we still have to side slip into the remaining crosswind component...your upwind wheel down first. Again, this works with any light airplane. Secondly, in a strong crosswind, we will still be flying, we will still have lots of airspeed even though ground speed may be at or near zero. We will not be able to arrive at the downwind corner in a three point attitude as this would send us back into high ground effect or higher. We will have to wheel it on and keep the same or a bit less angle of attack to prevent flying. We will not roll far, but we may need help with taxi. i have had to wait for the fuel truck to taxi upwind in formation with me to get to tie downs. And when alone where tie downs have a lot of grass around them, I have parked the wrong way and had to get help swinging the tail around without the airplane blowing away. Yes, this was more than fifty years ago when Champs, and most trainers were a couple thousand dollars. Cub got to be too high way back and all are too high now. Speed is what causes extensive damage in the ground loop. Using the apparent brisk walk rate of closure short final, slow enough that the airplane only had to roll ten feet or so to be slow enough not to catch a wing in a ground loop, I would not stand on a rudder to prevent the ground loop. As you say, once you have seen it you know what it is. Students will do as Papa says and walk the rudder dynamically and proactively during taxi, takeoff, approach, landing, roll out and taxi back. The will walk the rudders in their sleep. The problem with teaching primary (I haven't in years) with 50,000 dollar airplanes is that the student/owner wants you to save the airplane rather than teach him how to use rudder yaw properly to bracket the centerline. I never rode the controls and never will. So only nose wheel airplane now when instructing takeoff and landing. I talk but say, you are on your own (tw). I can tell you but not help you with my bad leg and slow reaction now that I am old and almost used up. Anyway, good lesson. What you and Wolfgang teach works in any airplane. Airmen Certification Standards are way too far removed from him now.

[@Bananasssssssss]

Great advice Jimmy! Love the part about apparent centerline. ! Will use that in my upcoming video!

[@AnthonyMartinez]

Loved it, and your advice echoes what my instructor drilled into me when I got my tailwheel endorsement. The ratchet tip really helped my trike landings too. Hoping to get some more Cub time in the next few weeks!

[@Bananasssssssss]

Thanks! Get it in before it’s too cold 😂

[@AnthonyMartinez]

@@Bananasssssssss down here it’s more “now that it’s not too hot!” Too cold rarely happens, but when it does it’s international news.

[@lembriggs1075]

Great video! Wheel landing almost always for me and always hold tail up with elevator then brakes and then will soften the let down with heavy braking unless ground is soft and/or no wind or a tailwind. If no winds or right down the runway then stay off the brakes. Crop duster pilot. I’ve had a mild ground loop and it was in a crosswind and was trying to do a three-point. After that, I stayed with wheel landings and never even came close to ever having another ground loop. 😎

[@avflyguy]

I was introduced to tailwheel after a couple hundred tricycle (nose roller) hours then into a 7AC champ by an airline pilot friend. He also had a cabin Waco, so was very proficient. While there is a time and place to do wheel landings, I'll always remember his comment:: _Why do you want to land the airplane twice?_ Thus the full stall 3 point was the preferred way either hard or soft surface. Ended up with around 50 hours, then fast forward 25+ years when I bought my J3. Before that I had flown a lot of different tricycle gear (2500 hrs), then stepped away for several years. Got a BFR in a 172, then jumped in the Cub and while the 1st landing was OK, then after most were near perfect. The Cub is just *SO* predictable and so much fun. Have ~1200 take off and landings in the Cub, but I do alternate between wheelies and 3 points....usually wheelies on hard surfact or strong/gusty crosswinds. but 80% are 3 points... Wouldn't trade the Cub for anything. May be slow, but eventually gets me where I want to go.

[@SoloRenegade]

Bud Anderson is a huge advocate for the 3-point as well.

[@thatstinsongirl]

I love to 3-point the Stinson, but if it’s gusty or there’s any amount of crosswind, wheel landing is the way to go. I have tried to 3-point the Stinson in a crosswind and it just doesn’t work. Not enough rudder (those of you who fly a Stinson know). And I almost exclusively wheel land at night. Also, another thing for some of you guys who are one or the other to keep in mind, some airplanes you do not 3-point (the Ford Trimotor comes to mind) and some airplanes are more inclined to do one or the other. My Stinson has a pretty far forward CG, and unless there’s weight in the tail, it can be a chore to 3-point it sometimes. It will, however, almost wheel land itself. Stick and Rudder is a fantastic book, I always recommend it to people.

[@stevehaire6181]

Used to fly an HW75… fun little Stinson. And yes, I agree, each taildragger has its own quirks. I owned an early Sonerai… solo from the rear seat only. It was totally blind and had no toe brakes or differential braking. It was almost impossible to wheel-land that thing with its springy gear and long moment arm coupled with lack of braking. 🙄

[@Coops777]

Awesome video and topic Joe. I fly and operate out of a relatively short bush dirt strip owned by my CFI here in Dubbo, NSW, Australia. Due to length limitations, three pointers are always used and taught by the CFI at this flying school because they tend to have a shorter rollout and have proven to be safer for new students - The aircraft stays down once stalled. However, there is no doubt that when landing on pavement, a tail low or tail high wheel landing is much easier on the aircraft. You can gradually bleed speed off while keeping the tail wheel up, protecting it from possible castor spins and other problems when rolling on the pavement. Totally agree about being proficient for both. You need to be able to master complete control of a tail dragger including one wheel landings before you can consider yourself reasonably safe, landing in less than perfect conditions in my honest opinion. As you say, the cub is very light and has a tendency to weather-vane, so requires confidence and proficiency to keep it under control in difficult conditions.

[@Bananasssssssss]

Thanks! What plane are you guys using out there?

[@Coops777]

@Bananasssssssss We use two Legend AL3 cubs and occasionally a Citabria. I own one of the Cubs and rent it to my CFI. Ive only just received my basic recreational instructor rating and aim to become senior, at which time, I'll retire from my current full time job as a communications technician.

[@Bananasssssssss]

@@Coops777 nice planes 👍🏻

[@wagonpilotyt]

Good taildragger video. I agree, proficiency is required in both because different conditions require different approaches to landing successfully, or at least with grace.

[@josemmontes5810]

Hi Joe, thanks for the video, I am not a tailwheel pilot but your explanation on three point landings had some tips (the ratchet effect) that I think are going to make my tricycle gear landings much better, thank you.

[@Bananasssssssss]

Glad it helped! and I agree, even in tricycle gear planes not pushing forward on the Yoke after pulling back is definitely helpful

[@JW-gb6hq]

Good tips I like the ratchet explanation. I read stick and rudder long ago…..it’s still on my shelf today. I have nothing additional to add as my experience is: PA12, PA18, Maule M5(235)Cessna 185. I don’t want to cloud your great application to the airplane you’re flying. The shots of landings from rear and control inputs are very helpful for visualization. Good work on this one👍🏻.

[@Bananasssssssss]

Thank you! I’m curios from your experience though. Whats the 185 like? As far as landing etc. seems like the ultimate machine as far as Taildraggers go

[@JW-gb6hq]

@@Bananasssssssss I loved mine. Mine had the IO-470 with a scimitar prop and bush conversions(horton stol). It’s all subjective as to what people think is the ultimate. My .02 though is for all around use a 180/185 is hard to beat. As you know even big airplanes become small in some weather conditions. So back to our smaller airplanes I still prefer a tailwheel airplane in most cases--just more versatile. I owned all 4 of the airplanes I mentioned one at a time. If I could only pick one it would hands down be 180/185. As far as wheel landing when airspeed slows after mains planted my technique is to make a conscious effort to get tailwheel planted. That transition time is key just like planting the mains on the wheel landing but in reverse with the tailwheel. It’s only going to weather vane if left in that transition state too long. I also landed the 185 with your rolling on technique as well in quite a bit of wind at times. It just depended on what the particular situation and conditions called for. You need to get some seat time in a 180/185 and see what you think. They all have manual flaps as well.👍🏻

[@Bananasssssssss]

@@JW-gb6hq thanks for the insight! And would love to get some stick time in one.

[@JW-gb6hq]

@@Bananasssssssss Maybe one of the folks on here near you will take you up on that. The aircraft prices are just ridiculous over the past few years. I would recommend getting one that needs some tlc without prior major damage history and doing your own work on it to make what you want. I think it benefited me in that one of my best friends is an IA😂 I also appreciate doing all I can knowing that things within my skill level are done to my expectations. There are plenty of amazing places doing aircraft mods but it’s not always the best money to satisfaction ratio. Some things just have to be left to the experts but a lot of it is just effort and patience as you know already. I would also explore the “experimental “ category lately as the options are many now. Avionics for certified aircraft are revolting in price compared to experimental……..

[@Bananasssssssss]

@@JW-gb6hq I was going to say the prices of 185s have gone bonkers, lol

[@rcpaviator]

Really like your videos. I don't have as much experience as you in taildraggers but have been enjoying flying a champ a bunch lately. We are off grass and it does 3 points really nice. I'm exploring wheel landings recently and starting to get the feel. Being proficient in both sounds like the place to be!

[@Bananasssssssss]

Thank you!, really appreciate that. I love three pointers on grass, it settles down Sio nicely but wheelers are oddly satisfying on grass too.

[@joefinn1100]

Excellent comparison videos and thorough discussion. Wish I had a Cub!

[@Bananasssssssss]

Thank you! lowest cost airplane out there!!!!

[@healerf18]

Excellent review! Love the never ending wheel vs three-point landing debates. I own and fly a Cessna 180 in Alaska, so a bit heavier with more horse power up front compared to the Cub. I wheel land most of the time (and always when I land on pavement or with a cross wind) because of the better directional control, better view of the runway (don't want to hit a moose!) and easier go-around when needed. Also, a 180 needs a fair amount of aft trim to get the tail wheel down into three point configuration and that can make a last minute go-around a bit more sporty than a wheel landing.

[@Bananasssssssss]

I flew a friends Luscombe which is a little nose heavy and three pointers were so different than the Cub, I'd imagine in a 180/185 when it's done flying, it's done flying, and the nose would come down quickly, lol

[@healerf18]

Haha, yes! @@Bananasssssssss

[@davidcubero2137]

My Dad was a WWII U.S. Army Air Corps Combat Pilot over Europe. After The War, he continued to be a G.A. Pilot for the rest of His Life. For as far back as I can remember he took me flying with him every Sunday Afternoon. He had a Piper J-3 Cub in his "collection" of Recreational Planes that he owned. Fast forward to The Present & I've just Retired from The Airlines. However, I inherited my Dad's Aircrafts, but by then he'd sold his Cub. However, while Flying DC-9/MD-80 Series Aircrafts & after MacDonald Douglas Folded, I was typed in Boeing 737's, 75's & 76's in my 40-plus years flying those "Big Boys." But when I had time off, I enjoyed flying my G.A. Aircrafts as much as possible. I bought a Piper J-3 Super Cub, & I flew it around enjoying the very basics of Aviation. It was truly the roots of our Vocation/Hobby. When I flew with new First Officers that were brand new to The Airlines, I always told them to Remember Their Basics, something that my "Super Pilot Dad" told me. I always remembered, no matter how much The Technology Advanced in Our Commercial 121 Aircrafts, The Basic Principles Of Flight Are The Same. I flew My Super Cub for years, I always had an issue with Hand Propping an Airplane, & I wasn't crazy about being "A Backseat Pilot!"😆 Thus, I eventually sold my Super Cub.. However, I admit that it was great fun!

[@Bananasssssssss]

Your Dad sounds like one helluva Man! (and Pilot)

[@davidcubero2137]

@@Bananasssssssss Oh yeah, He was the best Pilot that I've ever known & a Very Good Man! I was blessed to have had him as my Dad. 🙂👍He, (actually both of My Parents,) set The Bar Very High For Me! But He took me flying every week which ultimately led to my Primary 40-plus Year Career Flying With The Airlines. Thank you for your comment!!! 🙂

[@aero104]

I am proficient in both. I prefer 3-pt in calm wind, crosswind, gusty, and teaching. If the wind is strong or gusty, i want to know if i have enough control in the transition from tail up to tail down. The only way to know, is to try 3-pt. You will know before you touch down, so go around and find another runway, or grass. Same crosswind but wheel landing, you’ll find out you don’t have enough rudder trying to get tail down, as you groundloop or exit the runway. 3-pt for students allows them more time to learn before instructor has to take it away from them. 3-pt and grass is even better. Due to increased energy, student wheel landings usually have to be corrected immediately.

[@juliankunsch8773]

Another thing why I totally prefer 3pt landings is due to the gyroscopic effect. If you touch down too hard, good luck with recovering your nose going to the right. I personally think there is more security to keep the aircraft centered if you‘re already rid of that problem when touching down, specially on paved runways and with narrow gear.

[@767chip]

Joe, Great video. You obviously put a tremendous amount of effort into creating it. I couldn’t agree with you more. You should be proficient in both types of landings. Both are good tools to have for a given condition. I have flown out of 09J when I was based at KWRI. We used to have our squadron picnics there. I have a 1947 Champ my buddy has a J3 like yours. Maybe your next video you can argue which is better. LOL! Better yet stop by my grass strip in NC on your way to Triple Tree and we can have a fly off!

[@Bananasssssssss]

Thanks! The Champ vs J3, the old rivalry 😂

[@JohnBath-f8p]

Started on taildraggers ie tiger moths 56 years ago. Like the advice in the video. Have flown tricycles as well. Prefer taildraggers.

[@stephenstidham3022]

Great video Mr Joe, I agree and fly about the same as you describe when flying outa most improved strips. However in the bush I tend to use a tailwheel low wheel landing, lets me hit my spot, get hard on the brakes if needed, that raises the tail and lets me get one more look before the tail come down, then dump the flaps and roll out.

[@carcur46]

Muy buenos tips! Estoy aplicando todos esos conocimientos y experimentando en mi piper cub recientemente comprado con algunos amigos! Saludos desde Uruguay y gracias por tan buen contenido🇺🇾

[@АлександрЕсин-м3н]

Very helpful for beginners! Thank you.

[@Bananasssssssss]

Glad to hear it!

[@TheAirplaneDriver]

Nice video. I use 3 pt landings for short field or fields where I have concerns about the condition of the runway…otherwise, wheel landings always. Also, due to visibility issues on some airplanes, wheel landings are a must.

[@stevehaire6181]

My two cents. I have used both techniques depending on circumstances. In general, in light aircraft I preferred a “full stall” landing, especially in a taildragger. I’ve seen plenty of botched mainwheel landings in taildraggers that resulted in a big ballon/bounce with power off. The result of a botched main gear landing is compounded in vintage taildraggers (for example) that have almost no forward visibility and stall at the wingtip first because during the correction you’re generally adding loads of power and stabbing the rudder in a crosswind when all you have is peripheral cues. For my two cents it’s best to three point a taildragger.

[@downsouth5971]

I fully agree. But good luck passing a checkout with a Chief Pilot if you can't do wheel landings. Also, it won't work on the big ones like DC3.

[@deepsixman]

I'm a new Luscombe guy, and this is helpful. Thanks

[@Bananasssssssss]

Glad to hear it!

[@davids.682]

Joe, Great video like always. You asked for comments, so I'll put in my 2 cents. You didn't talk much about landing the shortest, probably because the brakes aren't the best in a Cub and most people don't use them hard in fear of spinning the stem off an inner tube. If I need to land short, I try to touch down 3 point (slower airspeed), then raise the tail while braking to put more weight on the wheels. Just make sure the air pressure is up in the tires. It gets expensive to replace those 800 x 4 tubes!

[@Bananasssssssss]

Thanks Dave! speaking of, what PSI do you keep your ties at normally?

[@davids.682]

@@Bananasssssssss It's been a while since I've used a pressure gauge on a Cub tire. I usually just step on it to feel the bounce. Best I remember 12 psi is hard and 8 psi makes for a soft landing.

[@Bananasssssssss]

@@davids.682 thanks!

[@airmailman1971]

An airline pilot that flies a J3 that weighs less than one main wheel of his airliner! I love it.

[@chriswylde1156]

Such a professional, informative and enjoyable video. Content is spot on. speed in the approach sets up the landing. Get that right and all should be well in either 3P or wheel. variable gusts, are as you rightly say a challenge, especially on hard runways. but experience and constant practice is your greatest asset. Thank you for hosting such great videos.

[@redowlranchairfield5994]

Three point like God intended! I like it to be done when it's done.

[@Bananasssssssss]

definitely makes the rollout more predictable

[@redowlranchairfield5994]

Predictable rollouts are one of my favorite things!

[@downsouth5971]

Good video. I found 3 point was easier to keep straight in a cross wing with the tail wheel being on quicker. It worked well for me crop spraying off country roads. It apparently was a wild ride if you tried it in a DC3. So it depends on the airplane, but with a C185 3 point seems best for the smaller airplanes.

[@Akara316]

Agree on being proficient with both. I usually favor wheel for x-wind conditions and 3 point for minimizing landing distance/ground roll

[@Bananasssssssss]

yeah, I do love when I three point it on the numbers and get it stopped in like 50ft, lol. Nice to turn around and back taxi at runway entrance. of course my Tires hate me

[@paulovenz8037]

Great Video, I really enjoyed all the expert advice on the nuances and tips mixed with good edits of the plane, I Subscribed 👍 and Video Production is top notch, easy/enjoy to watch listen in 4k

[@paulovenz8037]

Also I love the slow motion play by play, fricken awesome

[@Bananasssssssss]

Thanks for that! I really appreciate it!

[@SFFWillza]

Some good comments there and I agree, pilots need to be proficient in both as they both have their particular applications. One thing you missed out on covering - and maybe because this is J-3 focussed - is the effect of p-factor and gyroscopic precession in the landing phase. Take something like a T-6 or bigger, or with a rotary engine, doing a wheeler and then flying the tail down can risk inducing a swing that could be troublesome. Landing in the three-point attitude means you are arriving in the attitude the aircraft will end up in, so you remove the potential 'gotchas' of p-factor and precession coming into play.

[@Bananasssssssss]

Good point. I thought about commenting on larger Warbirds etc but my experience is very limited there and I didn't want to mislead anyone. Good Points though. I also don't know if planes like the Corsair, Mustang you have to wheel them on etc?

[@SFFWillza]

@@Bananasssssssss You don't have to wheel them, per sae - same rules apply. You can also opt for a 'tail-low wheeler' which is a bit of a hybrid between the two. Hard to do in a J-3, but for something that sits higher like a Tiger Moth, they can be done. Interestingly, if you talk to the old timers that flew what we now call warbirds in WW2, they scoff (at least ex-RNZAF pilots I got to talk to) at doing wheelers - in their day it was always three-pointers.

[@dennispitz7488]

Thanks for posting this. I am currently building a Fisher Flying Products Super Koala, which is similar to the Cub (side by side though) and a going to need these skills when I finally complete the aircraft. I appreciate your willingness to go to such detail. I can clearly see what the different control inputs do in the two different approaches.

[@Bananasssssssss]

Thanks Dennis! Appreciate that. Good luck with the build. Just googled that, cool looking plane!

[@davefoord1259]

3 point is the go to if you’re not sure or not 100% for any reason. Wheel landings are much more of a precision manoeuvre in my opinion. You can pin it but you better not get the timing wrong.

[@noblegoldheart8508]

In many respects I feel as though I’m the definition of an old soul. I like old music, I like old machines, and I love older methods. Flying is no exception to that. Though I want to fly for FedEx, or any cargo air carrier, I also want to learn the old ways of flying, and that’s why I want to be able to get my hands on an old tail wheel like your J-3. I’m interested in a J-3, an Aeronca Champ, or a Luscombe 8A. And if I’m able I’ll also have another aircraft for cross country purposes. Recently I was fortunate enough to get my hands on a copy of Taming The Taildragger, and I’m already almost finished with the read. I’ve tried many of the advice it gives on my simulator, and already I’m getting better at flying tail wheel aircraft. I’ve also been listening to Stick & Rudder on audible and I’m loving the information I’m getting from it, I’m planning on buying a physical copy soon.

[@paulgodfrey2323]

3 point or wheeler ?I have no real preference other than what suits the conditions. I won't 3 point in a gusty x wind. Wheelsers suit this best. As a bonus, the moment the stick is moved into wind the plane has to settle on the upwind wheel and won't bounce even if the numbers aren't perfect (kitfox so your experience may vary!)

[@FPVandotherprojects]

I'm no expert but for me and my PA12 I do mostly wheel landings. I was taught that way and it just stuck. I fly mostly from paved runways and from an airport that often has a crosswind and I just like to "fly it" as long as possible. Yep, it will weather vane as the tail drops but if you are going slow and ready for it... that feels pretty normal after a lot of landings. I have vortex generators and slightly larger tires and with the tail down, no matter how slow I'm going, my airplane will think about flying in a head on gust of wind. I just had my 2 year review and my instructor was questioning me about why I always do wheel landings. We were just about stopped, tail down, idle power, getting ready to exit the runway, a little gust of wind hit us head on, and the airplane started to fly a few inches off the ground and I said "did you feel that? that's why". In that case I keep the stick on the gut and just let it 3 point land again. Plus the airport I fly from has a little "kicker" bump that will kick it back in the air in a 3 point no matter how slow you are going but in a wheel landing I can keep it pinned over that bump easy. I like to keep practiced with 3 points on grass when I get a chance though.

[@Bananasssssssss]

I'm about 50/50 in the Cub but the Chief I am 99% a wheeler, lol

[@FPVandotherprojects]

@@Bananasssssssss love the videos by the way. You are doing good dad, taking my daughter (25) flying today.

[@user-hn9fr7mn3x]

I was trying this today. The three point landing seems natural because it feels the same as landing, a regular plane, and not a tail dragger But when I try wheel landings, I bounced every time. Too much descent rate. And when I try to flair and slow down the descent, I just end up doing a three point landing 🤷🏼‍♂️

[@WatchmanForthePeople]

Pick the one for the landing conditions at hand.

[@Bananasssssssss]

Agreed. I hear a lot of people say they “only” do this or that and that’s not a good approach at all. You said it best 👍🏻

[@johnryanpt22]

For my 2 cents, 3 point landings should be the first choice unless the aircraft being flown has characteristics that make three point landings less safe than wheel landings by design, and I probably wouldn’t fly such a ship. Why would you burn up more runway than you need? Some pilots say they have more control performing crosswind landings on the mains. That doesn’t make any sense on the face of it. You’re most vulnerable to ground loops while the tail is still flying. The plane’s not done flying when landed on the mains and an unexpected crosswind gust could have you looking at the approach end of the runway if there’s more wind than rudder. A fully stalled aircraft landing in my humble opinion, is the safest bet.

[@Bananasssssssss]

What I do really like about a wheel landing is having more flight control authority due to higher airflow over the control surfaces

[@johnryanpt22]

Until you start slowing down and catch a crosswind gust during transition

[@wrdturkey]

Very well explained. Thank you.

[@Bananasssssssss]

Glad it was helpful!

[@michaeldickerson9428]

In my Fairchild 24W, I always wheel it on pavement and prefer 3 point on grass. It’s hard to keep it going straight on pavement as the landing gear compress and the geometry is changing a lot.

[@Bananasssssssss]

Visibility on those looks pretty brutal too!, lol. Really cool airplanes

[@husnulbudhiraja4686]

I honestly believe it's about your comfort level. There's no right or wrong way here. It's just a personal preference. Bottom line - Don't lose control, and make a safe landing!

[@Bananasssssssss]

100% well Said Hus

[@rafirosin]

2:32 Shoutout to Thomas in 9ER

[@Bananasssssssss]

Hahaha

[@elmoreglidingclub3030]

For me (J3-65 Cub), I usually decide between 3-point or wheel as I’m rolling out level from my approach. Either is Ok. I do tend to wheel it if it’s a stiffer breeze. But I agree with you, Joe, that there are times when I want it done flying and the tailwheel on the ground. Quick question: where did you get the Cub model?? I want to get one. Quick comment/request: it’d be cool, since you’re so good at videos, if you could capture the subtle use of adverse yaw to keep it straight when banking into a crosswind. I thought I caught it a couple of times in your videos.

[@Bananasssssssss]

Wright Brothers Collection (the Sportys catalog thing)

[@elmoreglidingclub3030]

@@Bananasssssssss Thank you.

[@elmoreglidingclub3030]

And I ordered your special edition. Congratulations on Sporty’s doing that!

[@Bananasssssssss]

@@elmoreglidingclub3030 That's Awesome! yeah I really can't tell you how excited I was for that!

[@elmoreglidingclub3030]

@@Bananasssssssss The Cub model arrived yesterday-very impressive! Love the detail, even the entry step, fuel level wire, tail flying wires, everything. Really nice.

[@cbizkit84s61]

What airfield do you fly out of? I'd like to see if I can find it on my flight sim. I had no idea 3 point landings were a thing. I always thought that the proper way to land a tail dragger were wheel landings. You make a valid point. I am going try doing both on my sim.

[@Bananasssssssss]

90% of my flying is out of 3NJ9 (Allens airfield) , or Redwing (2n6)

[@cbizkit84s61]

@@Bananasssssssss awesome thanks! Until i can get in the air, the sim is my next best option.

[@Bananasssssssss]

@@cbizkit84s61 Absolutely! Plug in 12N, that airport is my favorite, you'll love it

[@HolladayAviation]

The best way to land any airplane including a Cub is when you touch down at the slowest, safest speed for the conditions and keep it under control until it’s shut down. Fly it til you tie it.

[@JoeRendaRealty]

What a cool video and a big help

[@Bananasssssssss]

@@JoeRendaRealty thank you!

[@thegarre]

I like both too, but it’s wheels for me. They’re def easier, but more fun imo.

[@HangaRatz]

Great video! What camera and setup do you use for your runway shots? I’m jealous!…

[@Bananasssssssss]

Thanks! A have a Nikon Z9 and a 200 F2, 400 2.8 & 600 F4 😂. I have zero self control

[@HangaRatz]

You're killin' me Smalls....

[@owenallen5828]

Tail low wheelers are the best method, used by cropdusters, off ag strips; but new gen large firebombers such as the 802 apparently prefer 3 pointers because of tailwheel shimy.

[@Bananasssssssss]

My favorite too.

[@cameronmolt5649]

I use both. 15AC Aeronca. Low wind stol = 3 point. Everything else is wheel

[@bobsakamanos4469]

With a variable, gusty x-wind, I wouldn't want the higher AoA and lower control authority that comes with the 3-pt landing.

[@streettosky5983]

I much prefer a 3-point landing on anything but dead calm winds in my Sunderland S-18. I need to work more on wheel landings

[@Bananasssssssss]

It took me like 6 months after ownership to even attempt a wheel landing, lol.

[@DNModels]

Your slips are pretty aggressive. It looks scary at times. It might be the camera lens, but my guess is that maybe some attempts might end with touching down while in slip someday. The transition is looking somewhat after the reasonable borderline. At least from my point of view.

[@Bananasssssssss]

It's a comfort thing. the Cub is pretty slow and easy to slip.

[@TheIObook2024]

I practice both and am proficient in both, but prefer 3 point for most of my landings.

[@capitancairlblandford5785]

When bringing the stick back for the 3 point landing do you keep power on or cut the throttle while you pulling the stick all the way back?

[@Flyingcircustailwheel]

Really thought I would prefer 3 point before I started, was very wrong lol.

[@MG31-n5k]

Thoughts on tailwheel low landings for a Husky?

[@MegaRickw]

great video,where are you located?

[@Bananasssssssss]

NJ (Based out of N14)

[@MegaRickw]

if you ever get to Delaware let me know,I have a 1946 7ac Champ@@Bananasssssssss

[@Bananasssssssss]

Will do! which airport are you closes to?@@MegaRickw

[@MegaRickw]

I keep my plane DE17,Sugar Hill Airport,would love to have a couple hours flying with you@@Bananasssssssss

[@Bananasssssssss]

WE can definitely make that happen@@MegaRickw

[@jamesavery6015]

Wheel landings are fine for gusty HEADWINDS. I called BS on the guys that say they use wheel landings for crosswinds. If you don’t have aileron and rudder authority during gusty conditions for a three point, you won’t have enough control authority to let that tail down after a wheel landing. This isn’t opinion, this is a fact gained from numerous landings in a Luscombe with ridiculous amounts of crosswind.

[@bobsakamanos4469]

There's a time & situation for both.

[@elliottscott6493]

Need to be proficient at both. Flying tail draggers is an art when done right and with more tools the final result is better and more consistent. Plus, It’s only a matter of time before an attempt at one landing turns into actually being the other 😂

[@Bananasssssssss]

haha, funny you say that and I forgot to mention, about half the time I "Plan" on one but end up doing the other, lol

[@pi.actual]

There are different recopies for different airplanes but talking strictly Cub/Champ types the only legitimate reason for a wheel landing is to keep the tailwheel off of rough ground for as long as possible. There is no reason not to learn the technique and stay proficient at it but don't buy the idea that it's better for crosswinds because it isn't.

[@aemst]

The only right way to land a tailwheel is the way the airplane wants to be landed today, at this specific gross weight, in these particular conditions.

[@oldglory1944]

Leave the WHEELIES at the airshow !!! WHEELIES use too much runway. Wheelies can impose excessive stress on the fuselage. Wheelies, because center of gravity is moved closer to the main gear, makes BRAKE use riskier. Wheelies, show the world, that pilot really does not know how to use AILERONS for a proper X wind landing. It’s the size and proper use of the AILERONS, that makes a good Xwind landing, NOT a fast wheelie landing. Sooner is better than later down the field, that we find the wind indeed exceeds the planes ability, or our own training.

[@PDZ1122]

Wheel landing: pointless, unless you're landing a very heavily loaded Ford Trimotor. For everything else, 3 point it. You will not find any instructional film from WW2 that advocates wheel landings, except for a few airplanes with odd quirks. During every wheel landing, at some point you will be in exactly the same position as you would have been if you had 3-pointed it.

[@bobsakamanos4469]

Except you can choose when to put the tail down when doing a wheel landing. Some aorcraft are just wasier to wheel land. Ref wwii, P-40s , Tempests and others were wheel landed, some for better vis but in some cases to prevent wing drop near the stall.