language chat: unpopular opinions in language learning

[@Kat-tr2ig]

Unpopular opinion: moving to a country where they speak the target language you want to learn is NOT the easiest way to learn. It's the fastest. There is NOTHING easy about it. I moved to Argentina without knowing a single word of Spanish and spent a solid 3 months crying. Also, there's nothing wrong with having an accent. I have been here for 27 years and still have an accent. I don't care if my ESL students have an accent either, as long as they can be understood. Speaking of my ESL students, I don't teach them slang terms. I'm tired of my students saying something is "a piece of cake" because they learned that expression in the 80s and still think people say it.

[@whahala555]

I still hear people say, "a peice of cake" in the Southeast U.S.

[@joreneelanguages]

Ugh yeah moving with none of the language beforehand would be sooo stressful! The accent obsession is a lot :0 I think the Spanish-learning community is especially obsessed because of the stereotypes associated with a strong gringo accent, but accents are normal and fine lol. I do still hear "a piece of cake," but not like every day 😆

[@SomedayKorean]

And it's only fast if you actually put concentrated effort towards learning. Many of my coworkers here in Korea know just enough to get around (ordering food, etc), and some of them have been here for over a decade.

[@xojaci]

ooooo this was sm fun!! i thought the practicing with a non-native speaker one was interesting, because i honestly never thought about it before like. ofc i'm not gonna get the majority of my input hours from a non-native, but i do think when it comes to actual interacting, like traditional learning from a non-native can be more helpful (esp if theyre a native of your native lang) because they can explain things to you way better than someone who is native can sometimes. also, i think its sooooo freaking cool to be able to talk to someone where we dont share the same mother tongue, but the fact that we both know this second language allows us to communicate and thats so ??? cool like what!! so i dont think it has to be that deep, like you said :')

[@joreneelanguages]

I agree, I think non-native teachers can be really beneficial! and yesss, the idea of sharing a mutual non-native language is so so cool.

[@paulwalther5237]

Learning a language with a different script is a pain in the butt. The most popular school of thought is to just tough it out and use the foreign script from day 1 pretty much. This is what I've always done and it's probably what I'll keep doing but I can see the benefit of just using romaji for a long time. It took me years to really get used to the Korean writing system and even now several years into studying Korean I would call myself pretty comfortable with it but am I as comfortable as with the roman alphabet? Doubtful. I probably never will be. But since I want to be able to read the language I think I have to well suck it up and read the language. You'll sometimes hear people say that the reason you have a foreign accent is that you're using the roman alphabet instead of the native script. People come up with the strangest ideas sometimes. If this were true then everyone studying Spanish would be doomed. I study the IPA of a foreign language to learn how to read the script. It was super useful for French. Then I mostly forget it and just use the script instead. The Spanish writing system is so logical I think you can just skip IPA altogether. I mean, you can skip it regardless, but if you're struggling to sound out words then it's worth a look. I can't only learn formal words first. I mean, they're what's in the textbook so that's true to a point but I just get curious about the bad way to say things and look it up way before my skill level warrants using that language. I remember this girl in my beginner Japanese class who had this uncanny ability to just understand native Japanese speakers even when they were using vocabulary she didn't know. She was literally psychic. In addition to being psychic she was also really good at the other stuff like memorizing vocab and grammar etc. (She didn't continue Japanese after the classes ended though but I did so my Japanese is better than hers which is kind of a shame really). Not being able to understand non-native speakers if you don't make any attempt to speak/listen to them is absolutely real. It's just like if you don't get exposed to certain dialects of the language - you will struggle to understand it. Let's just say it's embarrassing when you can't understand someone but you should be able to understand them. I had this with Japanese and I felt ashamed. Some people's pronunciation was really bad though - if it was so bad that they couldn't use whole sentences and could only say single words I felt less bad. (I'm better now I think) I don't know what that polyglot comment was. I don't think you can learn one language in mere months except maybe survival phrases and very simple almost scripted conversations. Some of us study for decades and still aren't polyglots 😅😅 I've wondered about second language acquisition and if maybe a lot of people simply can't learn beyond A1. Since I can't literally jump inside other people's heads to experience what it's like for them and how much they really try etc I don't think I'll ever really know.

[@joreneelanguages]

it would definitely be interesting to see a study that compares learners who stick with romanization vs using the native writing system immediately. that's so funny about the alphabet 😆 darn it i'll never get a good accent! i personally don't think anyone *isn't* capable of learning a language, but i definitely think the amount of time/effort required is variable and i certainly understand why people wouldn't want to invest this much time lol. i feel very middle of the road in my "ability" to learn - I think I'm above average in understanding and well below in grammar acquisition lol. with how long it has taken me to get to my current level in just spanish i have such a healthy respect for language learning as a hefty endeavor lol it is no joke

[@thelanguagecaviller3657]

My unpopular opinion is that IPA for Spanish is still really helpful, especially because English and Spanish writing is so similar, so there is a lot of interference. IPA helps you avoid the trap of subconsciously switching to English pronunciation patterns. Also, I see very few people with good Spanish accents, which further goes to show that people need to raise their awareness of the Spanish sound system and its nuances.

[@bzylarisa]

Quite fun to watch this one. I agree with lots of unpopular opinions. Anki, Quizlet, including Clozemaster, those things are all not for me, haha. I deeply regretted when I chose Little Prince as my first Spanish book to read. Living in the country for immersion thing, I've done that/I'm currently doing that, but it really depends on your environment and personal situation when it comes to how effective it will help your language improvement. My personal unpopular opinion always would be: Duolingo works to a great extent, lol.

[@joreneelanguages]

lol yeah the little prince is more of like 8th book material 😆 ooo, i think there is no unpopular opinion about duolingo because both sides claim unpopularity 🤣 for me personally it doesn't work well beyond introducing some early vocabulary because my brain fully switches into "beating the game" mode. I've tried using it on my computer instead of my phone and that does help, but i still inevitably find myself eventually mindlessly completing the tasks lol. But i can easily see how that wouldn't be true for everyone.

[@mep6302]

As a native Spanish speaker, I had to learn IPA in order to improve my English pronunciation. For Spanish, the IPA is almost useless because most sounds are transcribed the same way as the IPA. I had to use IPA for French, Portuguese and Germanic languages (English, Dutch, German). So I agree it's very useful for sounding like a native

[@elmadas]

I use IPA for french to and for chinese, so useful!

[@joreneelanguages]

Nice! Good to know it has been so helpful

[@Margherita_Dolcevita_Languages]

I see Jo's videos and I like them before watching them lol This was very interesting and i totally agree with everything you said! I think that rather than living abroad to get the immersion, the people surrounding you are the thing that can actually make a difference. I have many Italian friends who moved here to Australia hoping to learn English fast, but since they just hang out with other Italians, they basically never practice their English. And yeah as you said living in the country where they speak your TL can be very overwhelming, especially at the beginning. I feel you 🫂 but congrats again on the move and good luck!!!!!🍀✨

[@joreneelanguages]

Yes! I definitely want to be careful to not just hang out with English speakers 😅 but yeah definitely can vary a lot on how helpful moving there is. thanks :)

[@emisnikki-polygloddess]

This video was so much fun to watch and I think I agree with most of what you said. I was so surprised to see one of my tweets haha. Never thought any of them would see the light of day again (too bad I lost access to my Twitter account). Even 2.5 years later my unpopular opinion is still that language learners should learn basic IPA.

[@joreneelanguages]

Ahh hello! I didn't even realize that was your tweet 😆 oop rip twitter account.

[@thelanguagecaviller3657]

I think the polyglot comment was trying to get at the fact that it's not worth it to be an "A1 polyglot." It's only really meaningful to be a "C1 polyglot" i.e. reach a high level in many languages, which is going to take decades.

[@joreneelanguages]

Yeah, definitely might have been what they meant. I don't consider someone who knows a bunch of languages to A1 a polyglot though 😂

[@matt92hun]

That's only if you never learn two similar languages. A native English speaker could become fluent in Scots way faster than in Finnish.

[@Matt-jc2ml]

@matt92hun scots is still english, but I get your point

[@matt92hun]

@@Matt-jc2ml Depends on whom you ask, there’s no real definition of what is a language. Experts generally consider it a language.

[@vogditis]

Firstly, you need to define the A1 level of the language. You are at this level if you can use simple tenses. This level is sufficient to live in the country. Any kind of exam.... I know many people who have passed these exams without being able to use the language in the environment. In my country, Latvia, teachers have to have a C1 level in Latvian and they are tested for this level. If they don't have C1, they are suspended from work for a while. Or you think that life is IELTS exams.

[@SomedayKorean]

If you're someone who wants to learn just the basics of a bunch of different languages, then IPA might actually be useful. Otherwise, I'm not really sure it's worth the time spent learning the alphabet -- just spend that time learning the sounds needed for that specific language you're learning. As for transliteration.... yeah, as someone who is basically only learning languages with other scripts, I wouldn't recommend waiting all the way until A2 to start using the native script. To me, it's just procrastinating on one of the most basic steps of learning that language until later. I think using transliteration as a backup-learning tool to double check your reading abilities could be feasible, but otherwise you're just making things worse for yourself later. For Korean, the alphabet is really simple enough to learn in a few days (honestly, even just an hour or two if you're motivated) -- might as well learn it up front and use that A1 phrase to adjust to reading in that new alphabet. And for character languages like Chinese/Japanese, there's no way I would want to put off learning characters -- there are so many out there to learn! Learn the characters as you're learning those words in the first place -- otherwise you're just prolonging the inevitable. I imagine other languages with different scripts are similar... It's not going to be easier to start using a totally new writing system just because you're A2 now -- your abilities are just going to be unbalanced. That being said, obviously everyone is free to learn in the method that is most fun/motivating for them. If that writing system is the only thing holding someone back, they're free to do whatever -- hopefully they're just aware that it's not going to magically be way easier to learn the new system just because they put it off for a while.

[@giurado6485]

Unpopular opinions(not finished the video yet) School curriculum for language learning is useful only for A level and highly depends on the teacher. Studying only from the same book or teacher won't give you progress, it's like wanting to know more about worldwide political points of view but you just study or read articles made in your country.

[@IsuCompare]

u dont want to sound like a "gringa". Thanx for sharing thoughts ;) i watched this video as a break, very entertaining..

[@matt92hun]

I think something you're missing about pronunciation/accent/IPA is that you can't hear foreign sounds that you're pronouncing wrong unless you know that they exist in your target language. This also relates to the comment that said orthography can hinder you in language learning. For example B, D, G, P, T, K exist both in Spanish and English, but Spanish distinguishes them by the presence or lack of voicing, while English distinguishes them by the lack or presence of aspiration. So for example to a Spanish speaker an English speaker pronouncing a D can sound like a T and to an English speaker a Spanish speaker pronouncing a T can sound like a D. Also, you don't need 10 years for languages that are closely related to ones you already know.

[@joreneelanguages]

To be fair, I haven't tried IPA... it seems potentially useful in the short term, but nothing that massive input won't do on its own anyway, in my opinion. Sounds that you can't distinguish yet you will absorb with lots of exposure to the language - I don't think IPA will fix that, nor make you able to reproduce them 🤷🏻‍♀️ I never said I needed 10 years, I said even if I only learn a language every 10 years, with a normal life span I could expect to learn 6 languages aside from my native one. That factors in temporarily losing interest in languages, life commitments redirecting my energy for years at a time, needing to go back and refocus on previously learned languages, etc.

[@matt92hun]

@@joreneelanguages IPA is useful for learning in the short term, but if massive input worked without learning differences you can't hear because they don't exist in your native language, Scandinavians - who are otherwise good at English and English content is only dubbed if it's meant for children - would see "zebras at the zoo", not "sepras at the soo". I'm in my 30s and even though I'm only fluent in 2 foreign languages, I can understand a bunch more well enough to consume content and interact with the odd native I meet in them just because they are very similar. There are even a bunch of languages that are only distinguished for political reasons and otherwise they are mutually intelligible.

[@joreneelanguages]

But Swedish speakers with good English don't struggle at all to *understand* English sounds that don't exist in Swedish. They can distinguish them, they just aren't effectively producing them. I do get what you're saying. My Spanish speaking students often have zero clue that I'm saying two different words, even for words that seem extremely different to me. I just don't think that academically learning the difference is a substitute for spending lots of time in the language. It might help someone temporarily pronounce the words better (if they can remember the differences), but they still won't *hear* it until they've developed that ability. I was told all the time at the beginning of learning Spanish that we as English speakers were saying things like "seis" or "bien" in a diphthong way instead of as individual vowels and I did not get it. But now after years of listening to (and to a lesser extent speaking) spanish, it did sort itself out in my brain and speech. For Swedish, I would venture a guess that most people have just never tried very hard to produce them - they're in a little Swedish-English-speaker bubble that is arguably nearly a dialect of English at this point. They can understand and be understood so there's no urgency (back to the "accents aren't a bad thing" discussion).

[@matt92hun]

@@joreneelanguages See, people are born with the ability to distinguish all speech sounds, but the problem is that they start losing this ability around the age of 6 months and lose it completely by the time they grow up. This is not intuitive at all and people who aren't made aware of differences they can't hear them and won't know that those differences exist. For example "face" and "phase" sound the same to them because they don't know that there's a difference they aren't aware of. I assume this is a part of the reason when, say, French speakers don't understand Germanic language speakers even when they're speaking with "good enough" pronunciations according to themselves. They just don't have a way of knowing that their "bonjour" sounds more like "ponne-joue". It doesn't help either that France has spent centuries on eradicating linguistic diversity and they aren't so familiar with different pronunciations.

[@vogditis]

If a person doesn't understand the sound of another language, that means he hasn't that language at all. Similar language to my native or my second I would understand partially. I have 5 languages, and English is my weakest language, so having English sounds in my head, I can understand French partially.

[@buvvins6687]

17:12 somewhat off topic but i had a very interesting thing happen to me in Madrid once. Hotel on the outer edge of the city center and the hotel receptionist did not speak any english. Would not have thought to run into this in a capital city of all places.

[@joreneelanguages]

Oo very surprising! the only person i've come across who I was surprised didn't know (apparently any) English was at a train station cafe where this customer was asking for her sandwich "to go" and the employee just kept being like "cortar? lo quieres cortado?" 😆

[@DDDTTT-jm9dr]

I haven't watched the video yet, but the thumbnail triggered me to click on it and I must say that "learning coloquial/informal vocabulary" is really a unpopular opinion. Like how could you not like to learn what seems to me the real part of the language ? It's what I search and search when I am learning a new language, but cool to see new perspectives 😊

[@joreneelanguages]

haha I agree, that may be one of the ones I disagreed with the most

[@SomedayKorean]

It depends on what they mean by formal/informal. In Korean or Japanese, these terms are often used to describe "polite" language that you would use with strangers and "casual/friendly" language that you use with close friends or children. And in that case, it's generally a good idea to learn the basics of the "polite/formal" language first before learning the more informal language. If I were to go up to a random person on the street here in Korea and speak to them using casual language right off the bat, it would come off as extremely rude (or just very ignorant), so it's possible that person was coming at it from the perspective of learning one of those languages where "formality" and "politeness" are often used interchangeably.