Vegan Gains Confronts Destiny For Being Against Surgery For Minors

Last night on Destiny ft. Vegan Gains
Vegan Gains
► / @vegangains
Destiny channel ► / destiny
Bestiny channel ► / bestiny
Twitter ► / theomniliberal
DGG ►www.destiny.gg/bigscreen
#Destiny
#Politics
#Debate

[@LastNightDestiny]

Blaire White Has A Vulnerable Moment During Trans Debate w/ Destiny ►kzbin.info/www/bejne/hKGnp3avmq2aa8k

[@hia5235]

Theres no debate when the other guy is playing video games. America First and Nick Fuentes crushed Destiny to dust so bad: that he had to disavow us to hide the damage.

[@andreafionda542]

@@hia5235 He seems to be actively participating in the debate so what are you talking about

[@robertconklin3850]

A person who natural has testosterone and their body actually developed with testosterone then even their skeletal structures are denser and bigger.

[@MrChris7582]

People.do have bottom surgey under 18 for years. Look at jazz Jennings. Its a fact it's happening.

[@EbonyPope]

Even women with very high testosterone levels are worlds apart from male levels. Whoever moderates Destiny's account please tell him to read "Large divergence in testosterone concentrations between men and women: Frame of reference for elite athletes in sex-specific competition in sports, a narrative review". That is a good overview on how big the differences even in top female athletes are in comparison to men. Also Denmark and all the Scandinavian countries revised their standards of care essentially banning the use of puberty blockers (although not by law) because in practice they were seeing more negative side effects than the propoents who made the so called "dutch protocol" claimed they would have. That is why all the most progressive countries are making this huge course correction. The evidence that puberty blockers help just isn't there. By the way before someone claims that this must be a political decision pushed by the right that could not be further from the truth. It is the same doctors that pushed hormone blocker before that are now limiting their use. Denmark doesn't even offer that anymore for minors since there is no proof that they have any benefits over just receiving psychotherapy. I would recommend to read the statement by the Karolinska hospital and watch the interview with the journalist who covered the Tavistock transgender clinic scandal on the Triggernometry channel. Concerning Denmark I would read the article "Denmark Joins the List of Countries That Have Sharply Restricted Youth Gender Transitions". I would really like to know what Stephen thinks of it.

[@rikewrites8198]

God I love Vegan Gains. Absolute buffoon every time I hear him, but you can tell he thinks he's smart as hell. What a guy

[@steggy9651]

Spot on. The same can be said about Vaush and President Runday

[@thepowerofmyth]

Just like pearl 😂 except I like vegan more

[@smugnick5458]

So Destiny

[@thatenbykid]

@@smugnick5458 elaborate

[@donkeydeck5263]

​@@smugnick5458why do you feel the need to attack women?

[@Benbones99]

A few days ago Vegan was saying kids don’t even get surgeries and conservatives were being hysterical lmfao.

[@BigHelianthus]

Yeah I remember that lmao wtf. how is no one else mentioning that

[@just_a_turtle_chad]

And he wonders why we call them gruumors

[@dot_dot_pwn2650]

we're not doing that, but if we were doing that, IT WOULD BE GOOD!

[@111Razvanutz]

it's the good old " it doesn't happen, there's nothing to worry about, and if it happens, it's good that it does"

[@overtherenowaitthere]

lobsters do have brains tho

[@Derpadeedooda]

The amount of mental gymnastics required to deny the realities of biological sex is just comical at this point.

[@DiahRhiaJones]

You mean like the mental gymnastics that every destiny cult clown, including you, uses to justify the horrific torture and murder of animals that aren't "special" animals like cats, dogs, whales, or dolphins?

[@randomanun4278]

The mental gymnastics it takes to believe replika is your waifu pillow probably higher.. this guy giving off heavy "my gf Is ai" vibes...

[@TehShadowDeath]

He is a prime example of having an answer and trying to create a formula to confirm it. It reminds me of those flat earthers who believe the earth is flat and did an experiment to prove it is flat but proved it's curved. When they proved it was curved they called the test flawed because it didn't confirm their biased opinions.

[@randomanun4278]

@dankusmemeus7093 no I'm just describing the average reddit mod....

[@samaelgoldberg]

@@randomanun4278 Projecting

[@jdjenk04]

So 15 year old boy can go through medical surgery to get breast implants to have boobs but a 15 year old girl can’t get a surgery to enlarge her breasts? What a world.

[@MrObveous777]

the reasoning I think would be is breasts stop growing around the age of 18 for a female so it makes sense for a surgeon to tell a female to wait until they are 18 before they get breast implants. A 15 year old boy who is suffering from gender dysphoria who doesn't get breast surgery may kill themselves if they don't get it that is the main difference for the scenario you bring up

[@Mville88]

Then we should be treating their mental illness. Not deforming them for life.

[@Emerild]

​@MrObveous777 meanwhile flat chested women are not killing themselves en masse.

[@ANLEW82]

@@Emerild neither are mentally well people who get therapy.

[@MrObveous777]

@@Emerild k. They also don't have gender dysphoria either. So it would make sense that they wouldn't be doing that en masse...

[@Skyflairl2p]

I swear every time vegan gains says "ok sooo" I know the next sentence is going to make my mind shut down

[@SirWalterSansRien]

he also loves to pretend he's acknowledging+agreeing with an argument ("Okay yeah") when in reality he wasn't fucking listening at all and is just waiting to repeat his own point, then a few seconds later he'll catch himself and say "uh, i mean no, i disagree" when he actually processes what was being said

[@Obem2115]

Tbh when I see „vegan gains” on my screen my mind always shuts down. I didn’t hear one good take from him. I always wonder if he is: 1) trolling and making content for destiny 2) wants to be different and doesn’t put much thought into his takes 3) he really has such stupid takes

[@danielwood8135]

@@Obem2115 Yeah, only way I see it is "Stupid or lying".

[@matttttttttttttt685]

One day scientists will invent a brain augmentation device so vegan gains can compete in mens debates.

[@sarinat3101]

I think if we're at the point where our gotcha example for trans surgeries on kids is "what if there's a straight guy who had enlarged breast tissue and had it removed, but then becomes a femboy crossdresser, who wants to look better when he crossdresses, and therefore regrets removing his excessive breast tissue..." it's time to stop, put on the brakes, and take a deep breath while you think about what you're actually arguing for.

[@AizakkuZ]

Yeah fax

[@upsidedownmachiatto2670]

And to engage in his delusion, I guess you can always put fake tits on? Coz even if you did or didn't get them removed, it doesn't have the same function as a woman's breast anyway.

[@KingBarnaDuke]

Straws.. Clutching.. At.

[@apgaismiba]

Idk man a child is a child, he might regret it in the future for the complicated and dangerous process of the surgery. It does not sit right with me at all like at least let the kid develop till he is 18 dawg

[@Ithinkjustzelda]

Lmao I actually couldn't believe it when he made that point. This is what debate brain does to a mf

[@Manducket]

Gains has achieved a level of insufferable confidence that's really impressive.

[@justinwebber9968]

The UK shut down a gendar clinic in the UK; it was supposedly the largest in the world. The clinic followed the gendar affirmation model and has now been scrapped altogether. The NHS cited: Insufficient evidence showing no meaningful improvement in mental health. Increased risk of mental health issues. The side effects of puberty blockers and the irreversible changes. Most patients were teenage girls. 4000% increase in patient referrals over two years Most had autism. Puberty blockers don't pause puberty, it prevents normal development. I almost forgot the statement from the NHS mentioned ideological malpractice.

[@Runescape12345]

People literally threatening science journals and shutting down studies to prevent trans people from looking bad. LMAO.

[@gtb9693]

Vegan gains is an unintentionally funny dude and for me the funniest thing he said in this conversation was the whole "what if there is a guy who will want to be a femboy in the future" lol

[@gaussminigun]

Lmaooooo

[@BurntChickenNugget10piece]

I read this comment right when he said it and almost died in Walmart thanks for the laugh😂

[@gtb9693]

@@BurntChickenNugget10piece he truly is a one of a kind goofball

[@mrlloydval2887]

Why exactly is that a problem? All femboys, at one point in their life, did not know they would want to become a femboy.

[@gtb9693]

@@mrlloydval2887 nothing wrong with being a femboy, it just sounded goofy the way he said that

[@dongonego5570]

I love the idea that, to vegan gains, male and female is just like a slider on a character creator that you can jiggle back and forth

[@dbjdi]

Using only testosterone

[@theobell2002]

Saints Row 2

[@AwsOm3Fac3]

Isn’t that what all lgbt people believe?

[@xZero9Ox]

I don't think he means male and female as in xy or xx chromosomes. He is talking about the way that estrogen and testosterone affects the development of the body. He's trying to differentiate between biological development and just being feminine or masculine. Notice that when Destiny got him to say "masculine or feminine" that Destiny tried to say that he could just wear clothes to make him more feminine when that wasn't at all what he was talking about.

[@Everythingmaxxer]

@@xZero9Ox its called sexual dimorphism

[@mikasasukasa4479]

I'm thankful and grateful for VeganGains. He plays into the stereotype so perfectly, for our entertainment.

[@bradmiles1984]

I mean just look at his name....if he didn't live up to the stereotype it would be so disappointing.

[@Nathan-rn7wl]

He never used too...he used to stream with cory mccarthy etc and I'm still sure he hates sjws

[@YammoYammamoto]

He is the stereotype I bring up for why I don't socialize with vegans.

[@EbonyPope]

Me too. If you are interested in that topic I would recommend you to read the article "Denmark Joins the List of Countries That Have Sharply Restricted Youth Gender Transitions". All the Scandinavian and therefore the most progressive countries are updating their standards of care. Apparently the real life experiences with puberty blockers has led them to the conclusion that the side effects rate were way too high.

[@EricLewandowski-vn7ky]

@@Nathan-rn7wlYou literally know 0 vegans in real life.

[@djtoxicdhg]

Imagine having a completely rational take like waiting until you're at least 18 years old for a life changing surgery and being called weird for thinking that that you should wait until your at least 18

[@sparx77777]

That makes a lot of sense for most things which can be done later just as easily like tattoos, piercings, or cosmetic surgeries. The issue when using this logic for trans surgery is that the surgery becomes more risky and complex the older the patient is. Wanting someone to wait until 18 can still be the right answer, but this is more complicated as you have to weigh the increasing risk of doing it later against the likelihood that they would change their mind about wanting the surgery by the time they turn 18. This is a factor that isn't present in the other scenarios.

[@efiniGTX]

@@sparx77777while there are risks of complications after 18, the same could be said if performed pre puberty as in the case of Jazz Jennings. It’s probably a safer bet to wait as opposed to too early. We are in uncharted territory and to test theories on the young population seems dangerous.

[@dougfoster445]

U mean like circumcision? Nah, we like to chop off penises as soon as they’re born! 😆

[@5555htony]

@@sparx77777but it continues to make sense when u realise this a completely voluntary surgery and not one that provides physical medical proof that it is necessary

[@dawgpost90]

​@@sparx77777Or not. Leave the damn children alone.

[@neplusultra4196]

I see Vegan Gains and I know I’m going to be greatly entertained or extremely bored.

[@Skyflairl2p]

Why not both?

[@neplusultra4196]

@@Skyflairl2p it happens sometimes. But usually its all or nothing.

[@jackooooooooo]

@@Skyflairl2p unless hes acting insane vegan gains is usually boring to listen to. it doesn't feel like he's really saying anything interesting if that makes sense.

[@just_a_turtle_chad]

They make me wish for an asteroid

[@neplusultra4196]

@@jackooooooooo or he’ll say the same thing 3 times in the same spiel like he is going to say something different

[@TheKeefeStone]

A transwoman recently won a 131 mile long cycling marathon by FIVE MINUTES. If you are even remotely familiar with cycling, you know that never happens....when it's fair.

[@BlooCollaGal]

Lance Armstong: *sweating nervously*

[@LunarLocust]

​@@BlooCollaGal I used to have this bad joke about how lance had to have a testicle removed so he could have the correct amount.

[@Feefa99]

@@BlooCollaGal Armstrong ended because of doping like EPO, blood transfusion, testosterone and corticosteroids. So he was somehow less manly before?

[@shadowwhowalk]

Emma Vigeland made a great point: The purpose behind sports is to teach young people that life isn't fair.

[@Travsice]

​@@shadowwhowalk I hope you're being sarcastic.

[@raeldri5867]

The amount of times this dude agrees with destiny but returns to its usual way of thinking is amazing

[@puffdaddy69]

“Hmm ok. Well you are a transphobe.” Has no response to anything Destiny says but what ifs and hyperbolics

[@CNNBlackmailSupport]

"I think these women have more muscle mass and almost the same height as Lia Thomas" When the vagueness comes out, there is a blatant lie behind it. Why wouldn't he know the exact stats? He knew the time stats and ranking stats.

[@nighthowell]

This is like if Destiny’s subreddit took human form.

[@aasofjg1511]

facts 😭

[@jeremias-serus]

Soylent runs like rapids over there.

[@thedan3482]

TRUE

[@travistravinyle4207]

Hilarious

[@mrpumperknuckles1631]

You talking about destiny or vegan gains?

[@tripplejaz]

If you think children can consent to surgeries, what else can they consent to? 🤔

[@BlooCollaGal]

They can't.

[@mlgfin]

@@BlooCollaGal that was the point

[@BrothaSmart]

​@@mlgfinlook at their name. It's the only answer they could give lmao

[@factjuniorroll]

@@BrothaSmart I don't get it

[@cynicalmemester1694]

Do you mean surgeries in general or gender affirming surgery?

[@LazyAce]

Leah Thomas at 6'4 didnt look different than the other competitors?! The inability to hold an original thought is wild. The amount lf effort to be deceitful is amazing.

[@Shiprok]

Vegan gains:"if we imagine a world where my opinion make sense then i'm right"

[@CoolHandLuke196]

the only people that are arguing for trans women to compete with women are people that have never played sports

[@rd_eli]

And the transwomen in the sport themselve

[@Rat-King27]

​@@rd_elicause for then it's an easy W, they go from no500 in the country to the top 10, so of cause they're going to want to have that specific right.

[@pokemonfan2630]

You'll keep moving the goalpost until all you can say is "kill them all", you dont care about womens sports and if there were reverse magnets in every trans person literally making it impossible to get close to kids it still wouldnt be enough for you, you wanna put people in camps and then get offended when you're called a nasi.

[@neetpride5919]

To be fair, it's not like cis women really can play sports either. Have you ever seen a woman's basketball game? Hell, I ran a marathon without specifically training for it recently, and there was not a single woman who beat me. Women just can't be real athletes. That's okay, but they need to either stop stealing sports scholarships from hard-working cis men or start sharing their positions with trans women who work just as hard as they do. Trans women are the key to achieving true gender equality. Why do you think TERFs hate them so much?

[@rd_eli]

@@neetpride5919 you really said nothing there

[@girodeitalia2259]

Lea Thomas was ranked like 540th against men and then he joins the women’s category and now has the national title, Plus Lea Thomas I believe is 6‘5“ tall and the person that took second place is 5 foot 10, this veggie head doesn’t know what the hell he’s talking about

[@pluto9111]

She sorry he also broke every record in that division by like 20 seconds, which is unheard of at that level fucking ridiculous. No advantage my ass.

[@Alvah707]

“Cause you’re just a bigot if you don’t get it!”

[@doniel370]

6'1

[@williamzegarra1874]

Didn't Lia Thomas lose to a transitioned male in a race twice, who is not on hormone therapy.

[@Xtazieyo]

It literally takes you 2 seconds to google "Lia Thomas height" to stop "believing"

[@KeRmiTaKilla]

29:28 growing out of disphoria might occur too my guy. Happens alot.

[@EbonyPope]

If you are interested in that topic I would recommend you to read the article "Denmark Joins the List of Countries That Have Sharply Restricted Youth Gender Transitions". All the Scandinavian and therefore the most progressive countries are updating their standards of care. Apparently the real life experiences with puberty blockers has led them to the conclusion that the side effects rate were way too high.

[@snorky222222]

Vegan gains has drank so much Kool aid he's completely lost any ability he had to empathize or see anything from another perspective.

[@ragegaze3482]

Saying it depends on a conversation with your doctor is a bad argument. People will just go doctor shopping, they already do that for prescriptions, same thing with therapists. If the doctor doesn't give them what they want, they will just look for another one until they get the diagnosis they want. Especially if they find a doctor that is highly incentivized by money, they might not care that much to decline.

[@giovalladares1022]

Or a doctor incentivized by ideology. They may be fringe anecdotes but I’ve literally heard of therapist telling girls that are tomboys that they “might be trans”

[@Onthebrink5]

@@giovalladares1022 What is this obsession with using the word literally? It is the most redundant word being used at the moment besides cringe. I literally ate lunch today.

[@giovalladares1022]

@@Onthebrink5 cry about it

[@Onthebrink5]

@@giovalladares1022 A fantastic response. Very intelligent.

[@jumpergamer1913]

@@Onthebrink5 cringe

[@beanybabyrabie]

The fact we even have to discuss if children can consent to sterilization, mutilation, cancers and serious illnesses like osteoporosis and heart issues and early onset dementia, removing developing breasts and inhibiting healthy puberty while damning the victim to sexual dysfunction and severe mental health issues and medication regimens for the rest of their life is really telling about who these people really are. CHILDREN CAN NOT CONSENT.

[@teckyify]

I wished we would talk as passionate about issues which concern more than 100 people.

[@willjapheth23789]

Conservatives can't agree on actual policy so they rally around random things they fear and liberals react to it. I think just let the sports organizations handle it, it doesn't need to be a legislative issue.

[@kg356]

Really none of this stuff ever needed to be legislative issues but here we are. It all started with that bathroom crap like 8 years ago

[@Buraz93]

​@@kg356What bathroom crap?

[@kg356]

@@Buraz93 I believe it was North Carolina that passed the first bathroom bill where you have to use the bathroom corresponding to your sex assigned at birth. They were boycotted by a bunch of Jewish companies

[@HostileTakeover555]

Removing the healthy breast tissue of biological females, who their breasts also serve the purpose of breastfeeding, under the age of 18 is completely different than a dude with gynecomastia.

[@killer3000ad]

VeganGains bringing up fringe cases of biological women having higher than normal testosterone is using the exception as the rule which is a fallacy. The vast majority of women don't fall into this category.

[@HostileTakeover555]

🎯🎯🎯

[@ne0nmancer]

Vegan Gains being fallacious? I don't believe it!

[@wtfcomments2585]

Dosnt matter if they do they still females

[@madmonkeys88]

If I remember right a lot of women's sports have limits for testosterone and other things like that, which disqualifies some women who were born with higher levels than most women. Remember hearing this from several places right and left leaning but could be wrong.

[@alexgrinage]

Those women don't even match up to men in the median rage of males

[@JustKeepCoping]

Fair play for having the patience to answer the same question in a different template over and over again

[@puffdaddy69]

“But they are suicidal” was his whole argument

[@BrandoDennis]

It’s really simple in my head. Is there a 5% chance or more the child will regret this permanent cosmetic surgery? If the answer is yes. It should not be allowed for children. This goes for tattoos, piercings, surgeries, anything. Children shouldn’t be able to make permanent decisions until they are 18.

[@sparx77777]

The regret rate for trans surgery appears to be at one percent, including minors. That fits your criteria. Does that mean you support it?

[@seandavidr]

Then they shouldn't be allowed to drive. Or decide where to go to college. Or take birth control. Or ride a bike or a skateboard. Or join the military at 17. Kids especially older teens make life affecting decisions all the time. The argument that it is life changing doesn't hold much water in our current society. If we stop allowing kids to do things that will affect their future we're going to end up with kids who are not allowed to do anything.

[@Tommy-bs1el]

​@seandavidr I convinced my 8 year old niece she was a bug she spent the entire summer acting like a bug should her mother have gone and got her surgery to look like a grasshopper?

[@seandavidr]

@@Tommy-bs1el dont play stupid no one is talking about 8 year olds. use a real argument.

[@sparx77777]

@@seandavidr You're fighting a ghost here. I never made this point. He said he supports things with a 5% or less regret rate, while trans surgery has a 1% regret rate. Thus, it would fall under his own criteria. However, he seems to be opposed to it, so I was curious if he was uninformed on the statistic, disagreed with it, or was simply being hypocritical.

[@Str8upWizardCJ]

Every time I hear vegan gains I feel the erosion of reason with the inconsistent positions and goal post shifts.

[@masterofreality230]

He just seems hateful at times.

[@makefoxhoundgreatagain842]

​@@masterofreality230 get the man a steak, ASAP.

[@Rat-King27]

It's people like him that make me worry for the future of the Western world, like I don't want to live in the kind of world that people like him describe.

[@kevaughn69]

That whole conversation is what happens when you feel a stronger need to "be right" than to make sense. Destiny is a saint, lol.

[@mcbean1]

The benefits men get from puberty is not just testosterone, there are a number of factors that help in sport that aren't replicated at the same levels in women

[@MuhammadKhan-py7md]

True, theres stuff that both men and women have but it develops different in men/ is a different structure. Good examples are bone matrix and skin

[@overtherenowaitthere]

yeah like limb length, skull thickness and and skeletal structure in general. that shit can regress but you don't change your morphology and become a petite wide hipped cisgender female. if that was true then whats the point of puberty blockers then? they can just transition when they're adults and its all good they are completely female.

[@richcheckmaker9789]

@@MuhammadKhan-py7md +10% lung capacity etc, etc.

[@_Razpberrie]

Brain development is also different. Males have better hand eye coordination and reaction time which is a big factor in sports. So even in sports where muscles dont really play a role females will still be outperformed by males, like in esports and motorracing.

[@HRRRRRDRRRRR]

@@_Razpberrie Shit, it wouldn't be fair for a trans woman to compete against women in chess.

[@GetAWhiff]

22:08 The issue is that the human population is so large that the amount of outliers this tofu-brain can reach for to justify his points is endless.

[@117Ender]

VG ironically supports solutions that are final...

[@genshishio9316]

Tofu-brain is _CRAZY_ 😂

[@ASavageEye]

So it took Gains 4 minutes of stuttering and backtracking to make his first point and I was so mentally exhausted already that I couldnt watch the rest of the video and just skipped through it to random bits and picked up the gist of it all. That guy seriously need to eat a hamburger, like right now for the sake of us all.

[@Vic2point0]

By now we should all recognize that transgenderism is a completely incoherent worldview, which is reason enough to not promote or facilitate it in children. But beyond that, when they try and say that "transitioning" them prevents suicidality, ask them if any of the studies controlled for the belief that disagreement with their worldview = hate. Because that's what trans people are constantly told. And if I believed tons of people hated me, it would probably increase suicidal ideation for me as well.

[@ObliviousCrow]

Love trans people as an ideology lmfao. But, yea, people don't like trans people. All it takes is for a trans person to get a single personalized can of beer to spark massive, national backlash. It's just trans people existing that makes conservatives mad.

[@willjapheth23789]

They don't need to be told they are hated by liberals. People are more than willing to tell them how much they disdain their existence. While I think pro trans stuff goes over board alot. I understand why they don't trust anyone that second guesses pro trans policy considering how many people pretend to care about them when they obviously don't.

[@Vic2point0]

@@willjapheth23789 To be sure, everyone is hated by at least a few people. My point was that we shouldn't be telling trans people that *lots* of people hate them, when there's no evidence for that. And I'd argue that trans activists make up a considerable portion of that "people pretending to care about them when they don't" group. Because if you care about someone, you don't make them feel vastly more hated than they actually are.

[@willjapheth23789]

@@Vic2point0 I guess it kinda depends on where they live and the media they watch. But from my perspective conservative pundits and several conservatives I know complain about trans people more than I'd think would be relevant to their lives. But I also try to stop over the top claims like trans genocide. Even though I understand and share some concerns around young people being unduly confused about gender and the possibility of trans trenders, I have a tough time believing the side that mocks trans or gay people or thinks they are horrible sinners has the best interests of trans people or people who might wonder if they are trans in mind when they craft these laws. I think alot of suicidal issues that can be fixed for trans people is on the family/friend level, I feel. Though ye today's media is anxiety inducing for everyone so I imagine all this negative trans-related news ruins the minds of many trans people too.

[@Vic2point0]

@@willjapheth23789 "I guess it kinda depends on where they live and the media they watch. But from my perspective conservative pundits and several conservatives I know complain about trans people more than I'd think would be relevant to their lives." Okay, but that doesn't mean they *hate* trans people, right? "Even though I understand and share some concerns around young people being unduly confused about gender and the possibility of trans trenders," What would you consider the line between someone being "unduly confused" about gender and someone who identifies as some gender other than what their biological sex indicates? "I have a tough time believing the side that mocks trans or gay people or thinks they are horrible sinners has the best interests of trans people or people who might wonder if they are trans in mind when they craft these laws." I would concede that those who mock gay or trans people probably aren't thinking of what's best for them. But they are thinking about what's best for others who might be influenced into subscribing to their worldview, and they think mockery is a useful tool to dissuade that. Personally, I don't think that's the ideal approach. As for those who think subscribing to transgenderism and/or engaging in homosexual activity are *sins,* I see no reason to think they're not (at least in part) concerned for the "souls" of the people committing these "sins". And that's coming from an atheist. "I think alot of suicidal issues that can be fixed for trans people is on the family/friend level, I feel. Though ye today's media is anxiety inducing for everyone so I imagine all this negative trans-related news ruins the minds of many trans people too." I think that's fair. And I think it's usually best to keep in touch with family and friends who truly care about you, even if those people disagree with some part of your worldview/lifestyle. As opposed to automatically concluding that they hate you and shutting them out (And no, I don't think parents and such should disown their loved ones for making mistakes either).

[@Braddockggb]

(Open Video) **Vegan Gains voice** (Close video)

[@colbyrob4814]

GIGACHAD

[@mlgfin]

* Sees Vegan Gains name in the title of the video * * Watches the video anyways *

[@Braddockggb]

@MLG F1N Reading the title and not clicking a thumbnail instantly after seeing it? Sorry, Bud. Should have specified, this is a straights only comment.

[@just_a_turtle_chad]

Please just leave kids alone man.

[@thatenbykid]

No 🗿

[@nellyc3669]

@@thatenbykid ayo

[@franklingoodwin]

NPC. Do you even say anything else?

[@masterofreality230]

@@franklingoodwin We will stop when they leave the kids alone.

[@BlooCollaGal]

@@masterofreality230 Comments like this are why people like me have a visceral hatred for people like you. I have a multiracial family, two gay cousins and a lesbian sister in-law... *none of them* are okay with transing children.

[@cptbutt3571]

Liked and shared. Gonna play D4 and watch it played as well. Equilibrium achieved.

[@LazyAce]

3 minutes in and I'm already exhausted by the mental gymnastics

[@jakiic23]

Removing breasts as a female is way different than remove breasts as a male with a condition.

[@KaednKing]

I don't understand how the easy answer for "yeah but some cis women are just naturally better than other cis women" isn't just "yeah but they aren't being made that way artificially. Genetic advantage over people of your own gender is one of the whole points of competition. If everyone was perfectly equally as capable there would be no point

[@willjapheth23789]

Training and skill are irrelevant?

[@overtherenowaitthere]

@@willjapheth23789 his point is that the genetically superior women are already the ones competing, if they weren't, where else would they go? an underground fight club? no, the naturally athletic people are going to naturally gravitate towards these peak physical competitions, and then that's where training and skill become the deciding factor. these genetically advantaged people already exist in their sport.

[@willjapheth23789]

@@overtherenowaitthere sure I think genetics and such are a major factor but it's not the only one for sure otherwise the trans advantage would be more obvious, but so far it's just swimming and sprinting where trans people seem to have had any notable victories.

[@rd_eli]

​@@willjapheth23789than thats on you. Cause its more than 99% of all sports.

[@willjapheth23789]

@@rd_eli nice made up stat.

[@evroadtrips689]

I love listening to these debates because it's so obvious that these people have just been told stuff they like and have never study these topics in details. Then when they hear anything to the contrary you can hear their brains break.

[@semasiologistics]

Nice debate, Destiny. This is by far my favorite so far. Balanced, informed, actually intellectual in that people can walk away assured that they might have learned something. Nice defense.

[@ambro3075]

TRT Exemptions have been banned in majority of combat sports in the US and has been banned going on 9 years now because we decided it was unfair.

[@kars7181]

rip TRT Vitor days

[@Robisquick]

Kind of a one-dimensional view of this thing. What should matter is the persons stats. There should be a comprehensive matrix that if a person fits within the margins, they should be able to compete regardless of gender

[@ambro3075]

@@Robisquick Wrong. You cant test these people constantly and they will be capable of taking advantage of the system to keep their numbers above the competitor. TRT Exemptions had a limit but competitors still managed to game the system to legally cheat. Also recent studies suggest trans athletes have stronger hearts and lung capacity. The male skeleton structure is also better designed for physical activities. You can even do something as simple as comparing a boys wrist bone to a girls wrist bone and the differences are apparent. We as a society have agreed that sports are separated based on sex because those things are categorical. The majority should not need to allow the minority to damage the integrity of their sport just to keep them happy. The minority should comprehend why them competing is an issue and accept it. Or create a league where females can decide to compete with trans women if they so desire. That way women who do not feel comfortable with it are not being forced into doing something which will make them feel as if they are being cheated.

[@shawnm4503]

A girl I went through school with had a breast reduction surgery in 11th grade. It was a sad day

[@yopman411]

Girl I knew had one to but she needed it because she had Js and severe back problems from it.

[@richcheckmaker9789]

@@yopman411 She should have suffered for the rest of us. Shame.

[@Narutou01]

​@@yopman411 most chicks I've seen get breast reductions are just out of shape. A good weight loss and back strengthening program should be tried before surgery is an option

[@yopman411]

@Narutou01 she wasn't very overweight, her family has a history of having to get breast reductions.

[@scaryjoker]

@@yopman411 what a legendary family huh

[@mattiOTX]

Destiny, just wanted to come say thanks for being on the podcast woth blaire. I hope yall talk again. I enjoyed hearing a reasonable discussion from both of you. I hope the voice of reason reaches a lot more people.

[@lordcorporal4247]

I’m so sick of this “denying them the ability to compete.” Like the world doesn’t revolve around you. You don’t have an inherit right to play competitive sports. Competitive sports, at the highest level & at their core, are for the exceptional people. What about all the men who are too short, uncoordinated and not good enough to play at a high level? You DONT have any right to play high level sports and it’s not a human right. They have ALL the basic human rights we do. Competitive sports are for the exceptional people. Sure, some may be naturally/biologically producing more hormones that give them an advantage and some people are taller than others. If we further split up sports into more categories, no one would watch or care. The reason the NFL, NHL etc are watched is because they are the BEST of the best out of all males. It’s something cool and awe inspiring. That’s why less people watch the AH, NBA D league etc.

[@Nathan-rn7wl]

Great comment. People put there thinking that a guy can just be fight mma or boxing at championship level. People really underestimate just how good these people actually are High school level sport and champion level is gulfs apart

[@AJaydedArtist]

Every time I think he can't get dumber he does. Truly amazing 😂

[@Autofobia1]

still not as stupid as being vegan tho... no?

[@AJaydedArtist]

@@Autofobia1 facts. I attribute his stupidity to the vegan diet personally 😂

[@xvingar6318]

A feat is still a feat😂

[@soapbox435]

I don't know why everyone is denying reality i'm fine for trans people to COMPETE but they should either do it in there biological bracket OR in there OWN bracket even if people say there's not enough people for that well in time that group should have ENOUGH people to have there own league of just trans people we should not have to give up one category for another they BOTH deserve equal footing

[@TheSilentSoprano1]

yea it's to the point I think anyone who unironically tells me that I just instantly think their being bad faith.

[@HostileTakeover555]

@@TheSilentSoprano1💯💯💯

[@GroupKillingFrenzy]

or as soon as they turn 18

[@ProjectfullCurcit]

I agree totally, but the reason trans people don’t want a separate bracket is because they don’t want to feel like a third gender or an “other category” they want to be with the gender they identify as. There is no perfect solution.

[@civilengineer3349]

Whats wrong with letting transwomen compete against women?

[@ozarazil5745]

As someone with gynecomastia i can say it doesn't go away. When i hit puberty in a matter of 1 or 2 years i ended up having boobs. I felt so unconfortable that i even went on an eating spree to make myself fat so i would look like a fat guy with manboobs, but it was useless because their shape didn't match. Now i don't feel as selfconcious because i'm a grown man, but when i was a teen it was a nightmare...

[@Keurgui1]

Sorry about that man, hope you’re feeling better about that these days

[@Steademans]

I have very slight gyno on one of them. You can get surgery brother.

[@ThePigeStrangler]

My penis enlargement surgery should be gender affirming care

[@Apathesis0]

Vegan Gains hasn't even reached his final form of cringe.

[@RestorationsFOD]

It’s funny that this kid says he’s 6.3’ and 300lbs, because when I hear him debate he sounds 5.3’ and 120lbs

[@bradmiles1984]

He's not 300 pounds by how he looks, he's maybe 225 to 230 and thats being generous. 300 pounds is bigger than the heaviest athletes in the UFC. 300 is the weight of Mariusz Pudzianowski back when he was winning world's strongest man competition over and over. His claims are like the ridiculous claims actors make all the time saying they put on 20 pounds of muscle for a role when really, it's just 20 pounds on the scale which more than half is usually water weight and fat. It's not that they didn't put on muscle they just throw a number out there that sounds high. Any experienced lifter will tell you those kinds of gains aren't possible in those small timeframes even with pharma assistance.

[@RestorationsFOD]

@@bradmiles1984 good point, maybe I misheard what he said

[@bradmiles1984]

@@RestorationsFOD I'm honestly not sure, I'm still finishing watching the video. I'm just saying based of pictures i've seen he's posted even after a workout pump he doesn't look like anywhere near those stats. I just gave examples of people actually that size for compairson.

[@bradmiles1984]

@@RestorationsFOD Just got to that point in the video you didn't mishear. He said "I'm 6'3 and almost 300 f'ing pounds"

[@TheDramaticDream]

When it comes to discussing sports, an easy way to engage in a debate is by questioning why we don't witness women transitioning to male-dominated sports. Oh, right... because they would lose, as they are women. However, it's perfectly acceptable for men to compete against women and overpower them.

[@ObliviousCrow]

Should've tried harder. Play better win more. Skill issue.

[@MrObveous777]

If a women is taking steroids(male hormone treatment like testosterone) for two years I think that advantage starts to disappear.

[@stuff4812]

@@MrObveous777 wrong. the best woman taking the most steroids she possibly could, would never come close to beating the best non steroid man and would like not even be in the top 100

[@MrObveous777]

@@stuff4812 "he best woman taking the most steroids she possibly could, would never come close to beating the best non steroid man and would like not even be in the top 100" that is just incorrect. "Schuyler Bailar Schuyler Bailar, a trans man, (born a women) was the first openly trans NCAA Division I athlete to compete on a men’s team. He swam for Harvard’s men’s team for four seasons before graduating in 2019, and *his last swim placed him in the top 15 percent* of NCAA competitors in his event." also this guy (born a women) "Chris Mosier, a trans man, became the first transgender athlete to represent the United States in an international competition after earning a spot at the men’s sprint duathlon in 2015. Mosier is a hall of fame triathlete, All-American duathlete, *two-time National Champion,* and he has made Team USA six times."

[@ahuman5150]

Destiny did brought that up.

[@leevimalmivaara2286]

Damn, this was the most level-headed I have seen VG in a while. You love to see it!

[@Raiddd__]

why wouldnt destiny just say "you dont remove the healthy breasts of a female minor, its a mental issue not a physical one." Literally that single sentence defeats every argument he presented.

[@trokolisz3702]

How can vegan gains only ever hold the most extreme positions?

[@ahuman5150]

Because he is a vegan lol

[@andrewb9409]

Tell me why there’s zero trans men dominating male sports.

[@synchronium24]

I think this is a pretty good litmus test. Conservatives tend to want trans men banned from men's sports even though they don't have an athletic advantage, while trans activists tend to say that sex-segregated sports is transphobic, even if you're for trans men in men's sports.

[@BlooCollaGal]

​@@synchronium24 Hold on now, I read your comment wrong. I thought you said "trans men"

[@lukass3692]

another tough listen, thanks Vegan Gains

[@danjarnutowski2331]

That was just a painful listen. Destiny has such patience.

[@brandonsobremisana6681]

Then why did u listen?

[@stephenwishburne1034]

Medical educator here: one significant advantage genetic males have over genetic females is a profound hematocrit difference. Males have an upper normal level of 52-55% Hct while the lower normal level for females is 37%. This is a profound difference bc RBC’s carry oxygen. The genetic advantage that males have to carry significantly more oxygen is almost or perhaps more profound than the difference in muscle mass and testosterone. I predict that this genetic fact will be the tipping point and will neutralize some of these testosterone arguments.

[@joshdoesntcare3939]

Vegain gains argument: "Weeeeeeeell iiiiiiif you have your fiiiiiiist in a gun fiiiiiight, you might nooooooot always lose, as theres a poooosibility that you cooooould wiiiiiiin"

[@charlesirons8002]

Him saying that bit about a girl waiting to do a bbl because she might grow in to it makes every single one of his arguments inconsistent.

[@lordcorporal4247]

I’m sorry. It’s just not a human basic right to be able to compete in competitive sports. Just like how the short guy isn’t called up to the NBA, it’s too bad. There you go. You are officially included and are a fellow human because we all go thru “too bad” moments.

[@TheKeefeStone]

AND, why is it that all the countries with public(socialized) healthcare that lefties love to point to as "better than America" literally completely stopped medicalizing kids, but here in America with our private, profit chasing healthcare continues? Could the $500,000 per person per lifetime of trans affirming care have anything to do with with our Profit-Driven Doctors wanting to medicalize kids?

[@circaen]

Ive seen Destiny do this so many times & its frustrating. He lets someone come in on this topic - pick one attribute that makes up a human & argues it. The problem with Bio Men in women's sports is the combination of a thousand tiny advantages. Yes maybe some women have a very high level of a couple of these attributes but a Bio man is going to be at the very high end of all of these. Hormones, lung capacity, bone structure, muscle mass / density. Fast twitch fibers.. on & on & on.

[@nd4610]

Yes… thank you!

[@littleDainolf]

@@nd4610 Yea even pre puberty boys will beat girls in sport most of the time. A small adult man with lesser than average test and bone density will still beat most women.

[@suckit4669]

Aren't all of these attributes connected to having high testosterone at a young age though? If a 12 year old boy did have a very low amount of testosterone growing up, wouldn't he also be at a low end for these attributes? I'm also going to admit that I don't know if that is correct and I'm happy to be refuted.

[@circaen]

@@suckit4669 "Tied to" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. Do you believe if you took two guys the one with higher testosterone would be bigger & better in every single way? Taller, faster, stronger, better reflexes, so on... clearly there are many other factors. The human body is super complex & no testosterone is not the only factor.

[@suckit4669]

@@circaen Nevermind, I do believe that there are more factors that could be important, I guess I was just trying to play devils advocate to try to find out if there is some clear evidence. Your example is way better if you would've said "Let's take 1 boy and 1 girl, if T levels are the only thing that matter, do you believe that the female with higher T levels will develop to be stronger and faster than the boy?" My answer to that question would obviously be NO but for your example, they are botlh men so I would be comfortable with saying yes.

[@jjrilla___2664]

The gift that keeps on giving. Vegan gains providing content while I work with this in the background.

[@kimandre5842]

i just cant finnish this, i'm sitting here tripping waiting for him to finnish the first question, if it can even still be called a question and not a monolog at this point.

[@razgrizfps]

Vegan Gains is always a treat. Always good for a laugh. We need people like him. Note: a small study (only 57 total patients) in 2014 of the surgery type that was discussed here primarily had a 3% dissatisfaction rate. This dissatisfaction had to do with the quality of the surgery itself where scarring or other complications during or after the surgery were the reason for dissatisfaction. None were dissatisfied because they just missed having their boobs.

[@VoxMachina8]

So I'm wondering what "dissatisfied" was intended to mean.

[@razgrizfps]

@@VoxMachina8 I am unsure what this means. Quality of surgery I.e. recovery time, scarring, infection, even regret at having lost your boobs, etc are all things that can play into satisfaction with the surgery overall. It’s a simple question. Are you satisfied with the surgery? Perhaps it can be misinterpreted and only considered from a “how did it go?” standpoint, but generally that is a separate question entirely on the questionnaire when hospitals do these. And obviously the answer to that very separate question can play into the satisfaction question, but these are all things taken into consideration when they review the answers. TLDR; dissatisfied was intended to mean dissatisfied. A dictionary could explain better if further direction is required

[@maxerweller22]

3% dissatisfaction after how long? I think that matters because after a year you might still be satisfied but you may not be 7-10 years down the line

[@razgrizfps]

@@maxerweller22 it really doesn’t. There is no argument whatsoever to compare gynecomastia surgery to gender affirming surgeries for trans individuals. Vegan Gains just proved that for you.

[@maxerweller22]

@@razgrizfps you must have missed Destiny's point on how it's different. Vegan gains also said bottom surgeries on minors isn't happening, which is a lie.

[@simplekage8969]

Vegan gains, the gift that keeps on giving.

[@deniskennedy4483]

This might’ve been answered but which destiny video is this Vegan gains debate from?

[@whyfuckinchannel]

If cognitive dissonance was a person, it’d be this guy.

[@Emerild]

a guy that talks with the cadence of a women

[@MsJack00111]

This dude Is one of those guys that does t have friends and tells you it’s because he’s to smart for friends

[@BigHelianthus]

100%

[@aeyedeyen]

Too

[@billballinger5622]

To call someone his friend a requirement would be that they are vegan. So that narrows the potential friend pool down quite a lot. Then he doesn't even get a long with most vegans either

[@skylerchatham5934]

This is how a debate should go

[@nickgman3592]

This is the destiny i love. When he is debating lefties it is hilarious.

[@Feefa99]

He's leftist because he's vegan?

[@gaussminigun]

Based observation

[@KingKosar]

@@Feefa99 He's a leftist because he's a leftist

[@Feefa99]

@@KingKosar whatever

[@skeetermcdank1667]

@@Feefa99 WDYM He's clearly leftist. Almost every video he's in he talks about hitler. What more proof could you need?

[@thatenbykid]

right in my feeeeeeeed

[@monster-cu4gj]

The number of times the goalposts were moved though. 🤬

[@iceberg8903]

The issue with the guy with breast tissue is that they are not getting rid of some functioning organ. Getting rid of your breasts or having a hysterectomy , hormones ect is removing a function for reproduction and a child cannot consent to infertility

[@Bminutes]

What I thought we would be discussing in the future: how to cure cancer, which planet should we terraform first, which form of energy will sustain is into the future, how can we bring peace to the Earth? What we’re discussing: What is a woman?

[@jessecraft1199]

I like how he starts with “well…” when the mental gymnastics begin. Mr. Gainz is very entertaining.

[@TheFatalcrest]

XD every "Well..." Is when the music starts and he starts his first spin on the balance beam in the routine.

[@nathantripathy]

The worst part of people making societal arguments like VG and Pearly is that their principles come down to, "I believe that I should get to make a call for each individual case".

[@brau3690]

My favorite arguments are the ones you have to jump through a million hoops and allow for random genetic mutations...

[@dantehedge8414]

Vegan gains is actually lying the Women who were kicked out for having too much test were sitting around 120 nanograms per deciliter which is outside of the male reference range but the transwomen are allowed to compete with levels on the low end of the male reference range. He is saying that a civic is fast for a compact car so it's fair for it to race a base model corvette.

[@wez3107]

My favorite part of this debate was the 10 seconds of silence after he left the discord

[@CallMeYoDaddy]

I'm sure he believes men can get pregnant and will defend it with his life as well😂😂😂

[@gato4920]

Some people give the impression that no matter what information they get, they will never change their minds. Many pro trans surgery people give me this impression

[@ellis7622]

Man, people will twist themselves into knots in order to not have to admit that conservatives are right about this one single aspect of trans issues. Its the whole “well if we admit they’re right about transwomen in sports then people might assume they’re right about other trans issues and that’s dangerous” bullshit.

[@Painterlyfox]

Its wild to me that these people think the first option for trans youth exhibiting suicidal thoughts is to give them surgery. What they need is therapy and mental health checks. The suicide rate doesn't change after surgery

[@bobsackkajar5200]

It does change, more people are wanting to detransition and or kill themselves when they realize after the surgeries when they still feel in the wrong body and that cutting off body parts and making new ones isn’t going to fix the problem in your head.

[@AndrewWilson-fb8ge]

why the hell would it be "ridiculous" for VeganGains to transition and compete in women's powerlifting using his logic? Like if he started transitioning right now and even given 2-5yrs wanted to compete in any women's sport why would it be "ridiculous" for him to compete? It sounds like an implicit recognition as a man you do confer some benefits in being a man physically that dont just disappear when transitioning to the extent some one like him transitioning is "ridiculous"

[@stevestrangelove4970]

BTW the boxer who is always quoted is one dude who got 1 match against a random, won and then never fought again. He got a contract for promotions and shit and basically settled with that after the fight. Not saying he is good or bad, but he is hardly a useful anecdote.

[@BlooCollaGal]

If _he_ was good then *he* would keep fighting.

[@friskscipio]

ikr and its common in boxing that the debut match is always against some looser to boost the morale

[@kidzbop38isstraightfire92]

Conservative here...just found Destiny...dont agree with all of his beliefs, but u respect the heck out of his honesty and logic on alot of these issues. Need more ppl like that

[@halfbloodprincess989]

It wouldn't even take a massive amount of trans-women getting interested in womens sport. There is only ONE olypmic gold medal every 4 years and they'd have a massive advantage!

[@CabbageYe]

Did VG just say abusing steroids is gender affirming care? 💀

[@BlooCollaGal]

Yup If you aren't on roids then you aren't affirming your male-ness

[@apgaismiba]

@@BlooCollaGal bro the fact that there are some comments saying vegain gains is speaking facts os insane. How can they take this guy seriously 😭

[@YeahBoy1019]

Also a HUGE fact in regards to testosterone that literally no body talks about is how your androgen receptors process the hormone. Knowing your testosterone level is irrelevant without knowing how well/efficiently your receptors process the testosterone. There have been cases of men with incredibly high T levels but they present almost no secondary male characteristics due to a mutation of their androgen receptors. This has variability amongst adult males; some can have relatively low T levels but their body processes it super efficiently, thus being enough for them. While other men may need to have higher T levels to be healthy due to their receptors varying in the other direction.

[@bradmiles1984]

Also the level of testosterone isn't as important as the balance of other things against it like estrogen/SHBG. if your SHBG is out of wack then testosterone doesn't bind to receptors, and it isn't used properly. It is much more complicated then a single number.

[@seandavidr]

There's also people who don't respond to testosterone at all, and present as female even though they are in fact XY male.

[@christopherhall7216]

It took me a while to realize what he's doing but his general strategy is to broaden terms as wide as possible, well beyond what people would consider a reasonable, and then use whatever overlaps he creates to make his point.

[@Scardor]

I can't believe they were this close and neither of them said it... the guy getting a boob job is not getting gender-affirming care, he's getting sex-affirming care. The trans woman is getting gender-affirming care that's where the difference is. I thought at this point we all knew the difference between sex and gender, no?

[@kamifuujin]

The waters are murky at best when having these types of conversations.

[@Scardor]

@@kamifuujin wait which types?

[@13984980]

Can’t believe Vegan Gains started on KZbin back in 2012 and years later I’m still not convinced and eating chicken wings Right now 💀😂

[@Nathan-rn7wl]

His old vegan videos were great, and on veganism he is based