Left wing fracture: Anti-capitalist vs woke

[@cmussomaha]

I'm so glad that you included and explained Social Democracy, David. So, many people are very afraid of the word "social" and its derivatives.

[@robertschrader]

Social democracy is not the same thing as "Democratic socialism" (which doesn't exist).

[@RichardTClark396]

It doesn’t exist !!! we live in a constitutional REPUBLIC not a democracy ! These halfwits do not even know what form of government we operate under in the United States ! This party will be our end! We just cannot survive these liars and thieves any longer ! So get used to living under a totalitarian dictatorship because that’s exactly where are headed!😢

[@RichardTClark396]

It simple it = THE END OF America

[@drewharrison6433]

Yeah. David the capitalist obviously completely understands anticapitalists... Lol. No strawman to see here.

[@snapgab]

Social democracy is historically a socialist ideology too, with the difference that they believed socialism could be achieved through reformism rather than through revolution, but they still strived for a socialist society. But then liberals like Pakman took over and started calling themselves social democrats despite being capitalists.

[@pridan94]

People need to understand. There's a difference between a liberal and a leftist.

[@InzidenzPanik]

The average US folk has a stroke trying to figure that out.

[@ncwordman]

I really liked that David laid out some basic definitions in this video.

[@00SmileTime00]

​@@ncwordmanJust a shame a bunch of them were incorrect. He literally misquoted Marx in his definition of Marxism.

[@Songfugel]

Yeah, liberalism is fundamentally a right wing policy in conflict with left ideologies. However, in the US the left and right are so much to the right of the norm, that liberalism is seen as being close to the left

[@epicphailure88]

@@Songfugel Liberalism is also in conflict with the deeply religious fundamentalists in the US. I would still classify it as center-right in the US with regards to regulated capitalism and some welfare programs.

[@00SmileTime00]

I really wish David would spend more time talking to actual Communists. His definitions and distinctions were wrong in a few important places. He literally said people in a communist society "would be paid according to their abilities and needs" The founding principle of communism is " _From_ each according to their ability _to_ each according to their need" the exact opposite of what he was claiming.

[@Juan-os4hs]

What everyone overlooks, is that you may have outstanding abilities, but you *only need* three meals and a bed. It's actually meant to lower all living standards to the lowest common denominator, for the greatest mass of humanity, not raise the denominator for the greatest mass of people.

[@JimmyNuisance]

@@Juan-os4hs If everyone is sort of equal, those who are smartest will work to raise everyone’s standards, including their own. Even if they are selfish they will still benefit from hard work and so will everyone else. That’s the incentive under a socialist/communist system. That’s what promotes the collectivist cooperation. In a greed based system, it’s rich people making their own lives better, everyone else be damned. No reason for cooperation or caring about average living standards. In fact, everyone else being poor is a positive, cause that’s cheap and desperate labor.

[@Juan-os4hs]

@@JimmyNuisance And yet... the USSR collapsed and China devolved into a kleptocracy. So much for your pie in the sky ideological theories.

[@JohnBoyJoy]

Yeah actual communists like the CCP.

[@JamesJordanson]

@@Juan-os4hs and don't forget vietnam, laos and cuba

[@TimeLord675]

We really gotta stop with the demands for ideological purity. Shit's gonna cost us if we're not careful.

[@kensheck2049]

What's the analogy I read or heard somewhere? The best I can do is paraphrase: Elections are like taking the bus. You'd be a fool to not take the bus that drops you off 3 blocks from your destination if that's the bus that gets you the closest to where you want to go. Something like that. That's part of what you're getting at, right?

[@maccurtis730]

It helps the Right split the Left divide and conquer.

[@kensheck2049]

@@maccurtis730 Agreed, 100%.

[@zzzT.]

It already has with trump getting elected in 2016. The wokesters are delusional. 🤠

[@Juan-os4hs]

It's already cost you. I remember a time when the best memes came from the left, that was over ten years ago. Now the trash that passes for memes by the left, is total dog sheit. Because the good leftist memers didn't pass *purity* tests.

[@yesmarjan]

I agree with the social democracy position you support.

[@alechinshaw5990]

I do as well. I am an actual socialist though. I fundamentally believe the means of production should be controlled by those who produce them as a whole, and not by individuals that pay them hardly anything. But I still strongly advocate for social democracy because it’s essentially the bare minimum. Social democracy is more than enough to satisfy me.

[@adamcornell1186]

i would like to add that social democracy vs. socialism or marxism is not based around reform vs. revolution as is often portrayed. There has always been a debate among the anticapitalist left on reform or revolution and which is the better option. A ture marxist would look at the material conditions that exist in a given country or culture to decide which is the better option at the time.

[@rafaelfigueoa2457]

It's a little left to my position I'm a normal liberal think Obama or Hillary but a Social Democrat like David is the most left I could see myself even interacting with, I see both socialist & communists as delusional children unworthy of taking into account, think young earth creationists except in the economy & wokies are too black and white (no pun intended) they make everything about race, sexuality, and oppressor oppressed dynamics which now a days leads them to being terrorist supporters cuz they're "Brown" while Jews are "white" so they can both go to hell SPECIALLY the "aNtIzIoNiStS"🤢🤮

[@00SmileTime00]

If he actually defined the others correctly you might agree with those too

[@pure1019]

@@alechinshaw5990Social democracy is a step in the right direction but ultimately leaves a lot of power in the hands of the wealthy who have a lot of control & influence & don’t have the majorities best interest at heart.

[@corywashburn]

There is no conflict. Being anti-capitalist doesn't stop you from being woke, and vice-versa. It makes sense to be both because solving class based issues also solves identity based issues. When you make the economy work for everyone instead of just those at the top, the people at the top(usually old white guys) can't discriminate as easily anymore. There is a shared struggle between these two groups about making the world work for all people and not just those who were lucky enough to be born a certain race, to have a certain gender, or to be born into a rich family.

[@alexhelfet9023]

100%: there is no conflict. I think Pakman is trying to say you have to pick just one, but no, you can choose both. Anti-capitalists are those that believe in economic equality. It is no surprise that most of us also believe in social equality. Anti-capitalists have been discussing social equality for at least 120 years to my knowledge. Women, queer people, people of colour, neurodiverse people, have always been notable figures in anti-capitalist thought.

[@glenandfriends9012]

Your term “old white men” is text book racist & age discrimination as you use the term. A stereotype that is a meaningless contribution to any conversation.

[@christianboston7259]

Packman is talking about post modernist leftist when he describes the woke left. Anti capitalists are not post modernists. Post modernism is pushed by the liberal bourgeois class over at the ivy League universities.

[@Socialist_Trader]

Yes more topics like this. Trump is dangerous and Biden is old has been talked to death.

[@radvlad504]

Agree. My understanding is that those two topics bring KZbinrs, Podcasters, and Political Climate commentators otherwise--on both sides--lots of views and therefore revenue.

[@IndigoVagrant]

I think Woke is a negative framing of people who's politics are guided by civil rights/human rights issues. Woke has become a sort of vague slur that simply refers to whatever conservatives to don't like.

[@minoaxe3681]

​@@IndigoVagrantexactly, conservatives love to change the definition of good words and turn them into evil boogeyman crap.

[@Libdiddy]

So dangerous 😂 wars around the world and trump is the dangerous one FJB

[@justinpitcock5312]

@@IndigoVagrantI’d just stick with woke, whatever you replace it with will just become the new slur. Ride it out until it naturally evolves into a new word. Don’t force it.

[@tranquil2706]

We do need an analysis that goes beyond throwing all of the left positions into the same bag. In fact, right, left, and liberal all have minor or major difference between the various ideologies. So, I request you keep following up these threads, David. This video was a great start, very articulate.

[@Zenith118]

I'm pro democracy, anti authoritarian, pro individual rights

[@ulicadluga]

That sounds like a succinct description of SD.

[@Zenith118]

@@ulicadluga why do you say that? Genuinely asking I consider myself a left leaning independent. I have irreconcilable differences with both major political parties and the two party system as a whole.

[@justanotheropinion5832]

@@Zenith118 layman explanation: SD espouses capitalism as its foundation, but borrows bits and pieces from socialism. The goal is a thriving middle class, an ever growing elite class, and a poverty class that still enjoys a comfortable life. The disparity you feel is likely due to republicans who have strayed so far right that they’ve almost eliminated the middle class while veering towards authoritarianism. Meanwhile, democrats pay lip service to social balance (painting a sidewalk) rather than actually doing anything about it and continue to veer further left in the superficial issues. Simultaneously, Dems are veering further right fiscally, catering to the donor class and (at best) keeping the working class stable instead of advancing. It’s a ‘lesser of 2 evils’ scenario. Personally, I prefer a weak possibility of a strong working class and minimal poverty over probable authoritarianism. Take this with huge grains of salt. It’s not all reps/dems, there are nuances and exceptions to everything I mentioned, and political terms are very malleable.

[@ulicadluga]

@@Zenith118 I agree with the three tenets - though one can certainly elaborate on these characteristics. I do think it's good to start with basic principles. 🙂

[@MichaelForbes-d4p]

​@@ulicadlugaonly on its ideal form. Not in it's realistic form

[@nohero178]

David, this is why I love you and your channel despite sometimes disagreeing with a weird take here or there. When it comes down to it, your head is screwed on right.

[@davidleicht6302]

This highlights the inherent issue with the reductionist left-right false dichotomy. Instead of focusing on labels we should just discuss individual issues rather than blinding accepting what Team Blue or Team Red happens to believe at a given time

[@Chris-zi1we]

Would love to see more videos like this, I feel like it complements the usual content really well

[@iljitschuljanov4376]

In germany - and as far as I can tell this is the same in the rest of europe - social democracy is not considered to be politicaly left, it is instead a centrist position. However you do see a stark divide within the left, mainly between the older leftist on the one hand, who have been socialized in the GDR and are much more conservative and on the other side you have the younger more progressive leftists. Basically you have a divide between stalinists and socialists - and leninists and trotzkists and anarchists and anti-germans and so forth... yes, we are very divided.

[@pontiusthepilot]

Honestly, this was just a nice refresher on the terms. They get thrown around so much and so flagrantly wrong consistently that it's good to get a reminder every once in awhile.

[@theboss4359]

The fight for equality along racial/gender/national/LGBTQ+ lines is part of the class struggle. The capitalist class divides workers along those lines; the job of an anti-capitalist is train workers to see through that manufactured division and to unite workers on the basis of their shared class interests. “Wokeness”/identity politics/intersectionality is indeed a distinct mode of thought, but don’t act like the fight for social justice for oppressed, discriminated, and colonized people is somehow incompatible with Marxist/anti-capitalist thought.

[@boptillyouflop]

As far as I know, the few remaining Marxists/Communists/tankies very much don't like the DEI crowd... Not that they don't fight more or less for the same causes, but the self-flagellating guilt-based discourse of the intersectional people very much puts them off.

[@theboss4359]

@@boptillyouflop yes, DEI is a neoliberal PR strategy aimed at co-opting and neutering concerns about white supremacy and institutional racism in America. It’s designed to outrage conservatives and make liberals feel like progress is being made, while in reality nothing fundamentally changes

[@theboss4359]

@@boptillyouflop yes, DEI is a neoliberal PR strategy aimed at co-opting and neutering concerns about institutional racism in America. It’s designed to outrage conservatives and make liberals feel like progress is being made, while in reality nothing fundamentally changes

[@katapinesxc6477]

The capitalist class doesn't divide workers, human behavior does, don't fool yourself, taking away economic class won't stop humans from dividing into groups and " classifying" eachother.

[@joelpearson2352]

You’re reducing anti capitalist positions to class reductionism - and implying that the ‘woke’ side would be capitalist. If they’re woke and anti-capitalist, then they’re “low effort” and not “the most serious thing” Generally the whole idea that you’re going to be absolutely one or the other is the weakest part of the video. You spent a lot of time describing them broadly, but when you get to the whole point (‘you can’t really be both’), then you kind of just say they’re wrong lol. Socialism can have a market too. Like the boundary between market socialism and social democracy isn’t a bold line.

[@joelpearson2352]

If a person finds that one aspect of their idea is wrong, they should be dismissing that idea. There’s no magical rule of the universe that is going to guarantee that one ‘side’ is going to be 100% correct.

[@benwalters4808]

Woke is officially a right ring derogatory term for modern political correctness. That's just the way it is.

[@AsobiMedio]

@@benwalters4808 Don't give the right wing more power than they already have. Their media has money behind it but if most of society refuses to play ball that's all it has, a ton of wasted money. Or at times, counterproductive expenses, like when they did that embarassing sexy M&M segment and got laughed at for months.

[@Lerian_V]

Watch a video with the title, "Bishop Barron on Capitalism: A Love Story" or buy the book, "Catholic Social Teaching" to understand social democracy at its best.

[@senorspicyboi]

Totally agree, but it isn't even the "break" between ideologies in the democratic party. Democrats actually used to favor American values. They stood for equality for everyone, and fair business practices, and peace. Only in recent years have they become "woke" and started opposing capitalism, and the constitution. Simultaneously, this is the party that previously supported slavery, so it doesn't surprise me much that they jump ship with their values every time that they need to garner supporters. That, or they are so volatile internally that they've allowed other political ideologies to invade them, and take them over through the generations. I'm not a democrat, but I can understand the need to help those who are struggling, although that doesn't mean catering to anyone who's shooting themselves in the feet so that they can cry about having a problem. Some people are immature, and need to be recognized as such, and told to figure it out themselves. Not uplifted from their own stupidity because you could use their vote.

[@IndigoVagrant]

I'm a democratic socialist. I don't really buy this narrative. This video essay was pretty sophomoric. We look at power dynamics. Obviously with regard to capital, but also class consciousness, religious political dynamics, and civil rights. A large part of the social/cultural side of leftist activism does in fact intersect with economic issues. You can't tell me the civil rights movement had no impact on the economic rights of women and people of color. You also can't tell me that the civil rights movement is somehow at odds with the socialist movement. They are in fact intersecting and overlapping movements. In terms of political theory, sure, there be some historical divisions or camps so to speak. The they overlapped on issues and the movements they birthed were guided by a mix of these ideas. I agree there is a problem with some people on the left wanting censorship or "political purity", but this issue is massively analyzed navel gazing which is a product of the right wing/centrist media focusing way too much on it, blowing it out of proportion. The intention seems to be to divide the left and demonize part of the left. This sort of introspection and hand wringing is largely a waste of time.

[@dallenpowell2745]

Well said! This is the comment I came looking for. It is possible to progressive socially and economically. Both are interconnected. It's a balance of powers that's needed to create a stable and abundant system. We can disagree on the specifics but the direction is the same for woke leftists and socialists.

[@snapgab]

Pakman isn't being honest, he's just trying to strawman the left. That's the only reason why someone as smart as him would make a video as stupid as this. Anyway, I totally agree with what you said, there's no contradiction at all between economic leftism and social progressivism, they are in fact part of the same fight for equal rights and liberty. The idea that class solidarity and antiracism are somehow at odds is just stupid on its face, it's obviously the other way around, racism stands in the way of class solidarity, because obviously the working class consists of people of all colors and stripes. Historically many socialists have recognized this, it's why they rejected nationalism, why they went as far as using gender neutral language to refer to each other. (Comrade.) And since you brought up the civil rights movement, that's another great example, because it's certainly not a coincidence that many of its leaders were explicitly socialist, and ALL of its leaders were also active in pushing for more worker rights.

[@Starcatt966]

@@snapgabwhat are you even talking about? you and the other commenter are not as edgy and intellectual as your moms told you, David’s video was clearly aimed at the vast majority of Americans who barely finished high school and have never been taught the basics of social theory! You seem to think you’re better than that, but you both have obviously never read either Marx or Faucault, because both of whom , especially Faucault, were serious chauvinists, racists, and homophobes who would have not appreciated being critiqued for not having “woke” issues in their theories. Anti- capitalism, ie. Marxism, does not address race, gender, or any other similar social issue that we care and think about today. Women and men might be equal in theory, Marx mentions it, but his writings clearly imply that he takes for granted that men will hold power in a communist society. The same with Faucault. He talks about power structures in society, with hardly a word about how things like gender, race, religion, LGBTQ, (and, he was VERY gay, and homophobic in public to fit in, just FYI, so he was aware of it) fit into his structures and paradigms of power. If you’re going to pretend to be an intellectual, at least know that each “woke” group’s theories may or may not overlap or incorporate something from other theories, but Marxism and postmodernism did not and were quite rigid. Also, the progressive left is full of clowns who have no clue what’s happening and just assume everyone on the left thinks like they do. White and privileged. Edward Said ripped that privilege to shreds and is the modern father of post-colonial literary theory (racism) and any so-called “woke” branch of study, each has their own theory and framework that may or may not look kindly on antiquated theories that excluded them purposely or on theorists that they were invisible to. Do you seriously think third wave Black feminists have ANYTHING in common with people who belong to the American Communist Party ? FYI, they don’t. Yes, it’s more complicated than what David was saying, but bragging about how dumb he is compared to you, is shitty.

[@rustylidrazzah5170]

Exactly. Hard not to call Angela Davis, MLK, Malcolm, etc…woke. And it’s even harder not to call them anticapitalist. There is no conflict between the two ideas unless you attach some definition to either idea that creates a false dichotomy in order to make an ideological point. David is reaching and I don’t understand why.

[@jameskile5113]

David sir, just to add my two cents into the mix here. I think it would be best to center our political goals in a Human Rights based approach. Human Right is its own field which encompasses the concerns of both the anti capitalist and woke sides of the left. Human Rights begins with the principle that all humans are born equally dignified and have rights that should be enforced against the state. The goal of human rights as a field is to ensure those rights are respected. Those right have traditionally been separated into two camps 1. Civil and Political Rights and 2. Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. It looks like the woke side focuses more heavily on the civil and political rights while the anti capitalists are focused on the economic rights. At the end of the day the goal should be the same, to ensure the respect of human rights. So it’s not necessarily true that one of the sides is more right than the other, rather both are on the same side of the same fight. Fulfilling human rights requires balancing both perspectives!

[@CatDaddyGuitar]

I'm in agreement with you on Social Democracy.. I've called myself a Social Dem for years. The problem with the parties in question is that they're not listening much to each other. Their identity is locked up with their political views and they're closed off to input.

[@chriscollins2320]

Will this kind of content be in your forthcoming book? Fascinating stuff - thanks for this!

[@a_pirate1434]

I appreciate your descriptions of these two left groups but I think you have some misconceptions about them. Few people strictly follow a given political doctrine, and I'd argue that the vast majority of self-described leftists synthesize these two concepts in some way. These camps you described are two extremes within left-wing thought that the vast majority of lefties fall somewhere in between. Unless you're some doctrinaire classical Marxist who hasn't read a book since 1930, or some conservative stereotype that's only read obscure identitarian critical theory, they kinda go hand-in-hand: identity-based discrimination is a critical part of how bourgeois hierarchy justifies itself in a Marxian class-conflict sense, while class and material conditions are a critical means of identit-based social hierarchy enforcing itself. Many of those post-modernists you caricature synthesize Marxism into their analysis. I guess the main difference is whether you think class or identity is the MAIN driver of societal conflict, but at that point the difference is immaterial and absurd to consider as a serious contradiction among a political bloc. There's broad agreement among lefties on the sorts of policies that should be supported, and that's what matters in the end. Injustice is injustice, and anyone who's against injustice is my friend.

[@joncarroll2040]

The bigger issue is that there are fundamental contradictions within both groups. On the woke side, some will argue book bans are inherently fascist, but will then say you sometimes need to cancel/deplatform.

[@leec5170]

No conflict. We all hate Trump. First thing's first!

[@Vaushgg]

Literally yes.

[@wczo]

We hate Joebama more ! Worst resident on Pennsylvania Ave. ever !

[@ncwordman]

Maybe we can do this too? There doesn't have to be conflict, so much as a kind of taxonomy: a system of classifications and definitions. I don't really see myself as any of those things mentioned. But I've also never really thought much about it. I have my own things to think about. But I'm curious as to what all those terms mean. I guess it could cause conflict, but since we aren't really going to decide here which of those 2-3 directions our society goes in, it wouldn't hurt to think and talk about it.

[@Evirthewarrior]

That is not how you build a movement or political ideal. That is what got biden into power. There is about a 5% difference between Obama, Trump, and Biden.

[@Magus12000BC]

Ummmmm no. There is a reason why the rightwing attacks social issues. It's because they see the woke side of the left as the weakest link in the chain. So they attack it and lump everyone on the left along with them. And it works. This is partly how the Trump cult started in the first place.

[@BentonJZWilliams]

This whole thing was a hell of a stretch. It's never explained why exactly it's 'lazy' for someone in the economic left to recognize intersectional issues as existing even in a purely material sense (to say nothing of recognizing social patterns), or for a 'woke' individual to recognize that capitalism is an inherently unfair, unjust system of economics

[@BentonJZWilliams]

the more this video sticks in my brain the less sense it makes. it feels like if I said social democrats were inherently contradictory (or 'lazy') because many capitalists disagree with the need for governmental regulation and social safety nets. like, I'm not going to disagree that leftist infighting exists, there's a fuckin mountain of evidence for that, but to say the two sides David puts them in are inherently ideologically in opposition is bizarre. potentially some confusion of description vs prescription as well

[@snapgab]

Yeah its just a lazy strawman attack against leftists, Pakman is shifting more and more to the right by the day.

[@BD-uw1kq]

​@@BentonJZWilliamsIf you want indepth analysis of the subject go take a college course. Expecting more from utub is ridiculous.

[@BentonJZWilliams]

@@BD-uw1kq so what's the point of the video exactly

[@snapgab]

@JZWilliams It all makes sense once you realize that Pakman has a huge hatred against the left and is desperately looking for the slightest semblance of an excuse for attacking them. This video wasn't motivated by any kind of rational reason.

[@djStens]

Wow, i wasn't expecting this. Really good job David. High level analysis, keep it up

[@mikeg2306]

I like your definition of Social Democracy. I’m there with you, although I think we should have a little more socialism such as Universal Healthcare and a Maximum Wage (any income over a certain amount, including capital gains, should be taxed at 90% or more).

[@kingmj87]

Most of the Left isn’t actually anti-Capitalist, but instead advocates for a form of capitalism known as “Welfare Capitalism,” popularized by wealthy Northern European states. The confusion arises from the fact that Social Democracy is not actually socialist (if we’re using either the 19th Century definition that it’s a synonym for Communism, or the 20th Century definition that’s it’s the tradition into Communism), but instead a form of Progressive/Left Liberalism, having only strengthened, expanded, and perpetuated Capitalism for more than a century. Likewise, what we’re calling “wokeness” is simply Cultural Liberalism (and therefore not of great importance to Marxists).

[@BadassRaiden]

Uh no. Most leftist voters are indeed anti-capitalist. Wokeism is not cultural liberalism. Wokeism is associated with the awareness of social injustices. Thats literally it. Marxists, who are explicitly concerned with the class structure within capitalism that is based around the exploitation of labor are by definition "woke".

[@peterkoinzell7983]

I hear you across the board brother. I’m still anti capitalist. the new American commies / Marxist / anarchist. Those are the smartest most knowledgeable most planned out people who know exactly the maneuvers they want the country to take for simply maximum prosperity on earth. All other parties seem bumbling around with no goals. With unconscious voters on both sides.

[@00SmileTime00]

The two aren't mutually exclusive. Marx wrote extensively about liberal democracy being a stepping stone on the path to Communism, referencing specifically the British Labour Party (though I imagine he'd be turning in his grave at them now) and even worker's movements in the US

[@Songfugel]

They are indeed socialist, but not socialism itself

[@thomaswikstrand8397]

Social democracy cannot survive very long, as proven by our societies in Scandinavia. Allowing for wealth concentration leads to the creation of a ruling class and the destruction of that "strong welfare state" and the regulations keeping predatory capital at bay. It's a short sighted fence sitting position.

[@blakeusry124]

David, I’m late to this post but these types of conversations are much needed. Great Job. As a guy with a history degree I’m very impressed with your intelligence level and educational ability here. Your mastery of terminology and knowledge of the topics sets you apart from most content creators. YES MORE PLEASE. You earned a subscriber.

[@seannysworld1238]

Excellent video! I began was “woke” liberal, but eventually evolved into an anti-capitalist Marxist. It is true that these ideologies often come into conflict, but I think it is a bit disingenuous to presume that one has an incoherent ideology if support certain tenets of each doctrine. For example, I believe that capitalism is economic order that systematically produces injustice. With that being said, as an African American male, I will face certain challenges in my life that a White male is less likely to experience (e.g racial injustice, discrimination, etc.). The real tension between these ideologies isn’t about whether or not they are both valid critiques of society. Rather, it should be about which ideology is better served towards building a broad coalition that can obtain political power. In my opinion, the Marxist critique is the better path forward. We may come from different backgrounds, but the experience of being a powerless worker is common to most Americans. If human interaction already has a bias towards achieving solidarity, then it doesn’t make sense to focus our attention on victim hierarchies if we are trying to build a broad coalition. Anyways, if you are interested in a KZbin channel that marries both of these ideologies, then I would strongly recommend F.D. Signifier. He is a professor of African American studies and an ardent anti-capitalist.

[@peterkoinzell7983]

Your view on communism is like 100 years old 😭 “from each according to his ability, to each according to his contribution“ is clearly the newer better version of this 100 year old quote. We need a new opportunity. We should put it to the polls!! I believe in the people. A real democracy!

[@bydlokun]

Don't want to crush your dreams, but nobody does it, because most people won't vote for communism with it's bizzare ideas. That's why Marx insisted on revolution (which implies violence) as an only way to establish communism.

[@GabrielMartinFlores]

That was a great breakdown of the origins and key precepts of each of the ideologies. That clarified a lot for me and my thinking and how it’s framed in these terms. People bandy around these terms lazily and so it’s so helpful to have it summarised like this. Thank you for your commitment to the community and clarity you bring. Please continue to do these types of videos. I think well meaning people will misunderstand a lot of terms that get swept up into emotional conversations, this type of breakdown can clarify ideas and empower effective engagement, which is essential for creating a collaborative group working towards bringing about positive change.

[@andrewplowman1002]

Interesting piece. Avoiding purity tests make sense. SD wants to create a framework for everyone to flourish.

[@Tcb0835]

I completely agree.

[@kennytaylor1398]

I graduated college in 1991 (yeah) I’m old! Majored in Political Science and was introduced to the term Social Democracy and thought it perfectly fit a narrative in which I believe. Very happy to hear you discuss it on your show to allow people to not be scared of the “SOCIAL” context of its meaning. WELL DONE! Like to hear more convo like this!

[@WilfridCyrus]

Thank you so much for examining philosophical issues about politics! We need more of that!

[@moah2012]

I remember a time when people denied the existence of "woke" glad to see Pakman use it for a term that means something useful.

[@caseypdx503]

Exactly! He would dismiss the term by always referring to it in the way right-wingers use it which is everything to their left, while ignoring the way liberals use it...

[@snapgab]

Too bad that he's being a class reductionist while doing it.

[@andrewgreen5574]

Critical theory's origin was in the neo-Marxist movement where Marxist theory was applied to capitalosm's affect on culture, i.e. commoditization of jazz. It was further adopted by post-modernists, like Foucault, to describe power dynamics within society. Where Foucault argued all things have power, however it's expression can be disproportionate or activated. Further, Social Democrats didn't really "deviate" from the the two, as most original Soc Dems came out of the Marxist tradition choosing a transitory phase by using liberal democracy rather than revolution, though there were a few revolutionaries in the bunch. Laiselle and Marx also had disagreements, as well (Critique of the Gotha Project). What stalled this "transitionary phase" was the 1970's oil crisis and an ideological realignment at the beginning of the neoliberal era. There have actually been calls for a renewed realignments in SocDem and labour paties in Europe with the rise of a new far right, as many people see the SocDem status-quo as helping to fuel reactionary sentiment, loss of political power, and austerity/privatization.

[@ulicadluga]

Is it not possible that Marx really was an "Anarchist", who's "philosophy" was deliberately antithetical to Capitalism in order to throw a massive "political spanner into the works" of militarist, authoritarian and colonialist Europe of the 19th century?

[@thealternative9580]

I'm sorry but Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Charlie Parker sells itself.

[@michaelneedssleep]

I think you nailed it, but I wouldn’t jump to the conclusion that his argument is dishonest. It’s more reflective of someone with very little experience in leftist spaces.

[@andrewgreen5574]

@@thealternative9580 eh, it was a meme on Adorno, lol.

[@ncwordman]

@@thealternative9580 "I understood that reference." And had a good laugh. Though I'm a saxophonist, Miles was always my favorite.

[@BrandonB...]

Great work David! I wish more people were talking about this: it would help clarify a lot of regularly used ideas and rhetoric

[@peterd9698]

Yes I would like more discussions like this. Also about policy goals to fix the problems that have been talked to death. I advocate for: (A) a wealth tax to maintain a wealth curve (that we even allow spiralling wealth inequality is a huge red flag for our democracies) (B) an implementation of “democratic media” because a free press owned by a handful of corporations is no such thing. (C) social media AND operating systems should be open source public utilities, administered by some union of democracies under a constitution designed to maximise privacy. Obviously there are huge gotchas and nuance. There isnt room to list them all

[@ncwordman]

That's a good list. I also want those things.

[@roryturner]

Its very interesting David. There is a long tradition of considering culture and a Marxist analysis of power and social control as interrelated though ideas like cultural hegemony, the naturalization of inequalities and identities based on the way our cultural images, narratives, and practices shape how we understand and act in the world. I am troubled by ways that identity politics often doesn't critique the systems in place, but wants to smooth out the culturally shaped inequalities to give everyone the same chance within a particular capitalist system that naturalizes and justifies inequality and a winner take all cultural values. I would suggest that social democracy ideas to lessen the single minded obsession with wealth by lessening inequalities would also provide more space for a public life that recognizes the depth of the differences in different histories and sensibilities and the particular gifts of those who don't conform to a white protestant businessman-old school Barbie paradigm of what is acceptable.

[@theelderskatesman4417]

Actual 'postmodern' theory is absolutely opposed to identify politics and the very concept of 'identity' as such

[@reddy11-11]

I think it is a great and necessary exploration and you should bring on guest who represent these ideologies to discuss their ideas in detail. Often the split is so contentious on the Left there is rarely any engagement. Perhaps that engagement can be facilitated here. Appreciate you approaching the subject. The clarity can only make all of us better.

[@efficiencygaming3494]

It goes beyond mere labels. Many of the people who call themselves "anti-capitalists" are not in fact anti-capitalist but pro-regulated capitalism. The beautiful thing about politics (or not, depending on how you see it) is that people don't have to abide by all traits of a political movement. Not all gun owners are Republican, for example. Thank you for assigning a set meaning to the word "woke". That word is misused to the point of meaninglessness. People will use it to mean "anti-capitalist", "liberal", "progressive", "pro-diversity", "anti-racist", etc. Funny thing is, those people are the same "intellectuals" who will chastise you for using the word "electrocution" improperly 🙄

[@ncwordman]

Or not knowing exactly what an "assault weapon" is. I've given the basic, official definition, and they scoffed at me. So weird!

[@efficiencygaming3494]

@@ncwordman I personally prefer "semi-auto assault-style rifle". Takes away all the ambiguity.

[@ncwordman]

@@efficiencygaming3494 The neat thing is that most everyone is an expert at something. No one knows everything about everything. So it's great to for me to hear what other people know. I don't know much about these political labels. I vote, and stay informed. But never looked into the classifications to see where my point of view fits. I'm looking forward to learning, and this video (and these comments) were a great start.

[@efficiencygaming3494]

@@ncwordman It really does make me happy to see someone so enthusiastic about education. If there's anything I've learned, it's that an informed voter is the best kind of voter. Never stop learning!

[@joelmarinier9199]

I consider myself a centrist. Social democracy is the left I can relate to.

[@plawson8577]

I am a Proud Centrist.

[@rustylidrazzah5170]

My guess it’s easy for a centrist to relate to is because it’s considered a centrist position by most in Europe. Which is where the majority of people who live in social democratic systems are.

[@MaMastoast]

While its true that in terms of historical roots the two may come from different places, I do think that most modern left-leaning people come from a position of empathy and wanting to do right by people who are mistreated in the current system. It touches anti-capitalism because youd want to lift up people mistreated by the capitalist system; the poor, average worker.. it touches "wokeness" because youd want to lift up people socially disadvantaged by either laws or social norm

[@adamcornell1186]

marxism and what you call "woke" left or postmodern ideology do indeed have some serious disagreements. what david is missing however is that both are based upon material conditions based in historical materialism. identity and class overlap in many ways. they are both influenced by each other. The base aka capitalism upholds the superstructure aka culture, race and identity for and vice versa. These are fundamentalist marxist beliefs and agree with many postmodern tenets as frankfurt school postmodernism is an evolution or marxian beliefs in the first place.

[@jamesfrazier4005]

Capitalism is simply an economic structure that utilizes goods in a free market. My problem with certain leftist is they like to conflate an economic system with a value or political system. An authoritarian state can be capitalist and the most progressive and "woke" country can also be capitalist. We interact with one another at the personal level and the governmental level in how power is used. We can easily fix the personal level by being kind and treating everyone around you, irregardless of race, gender and sexuality, the same. On a societal level there's never a perfect form of democracy because you can infinitely create new ways of measuring power on the basis of identity and representation, so the best you can do is create equality of opportunities and structure the system in which everyone gets a say and participates in the prosperity of ideally a free market system

[@adamcornell1186]

@@jamesfrazier4005 as long as the capitalist class is in control there will always be a need for an underclass. Liberalism has done a great job at lessening that divide in some ways in our own country and the west as a whole. The problem is underclass status has been switched to workers in poorer countries hence the outsourcing that has happened. In order to keep profits high there must always be a class of hyper exploited workers. As long as the profit motive and capitalism as a whole rules, this will never change.

[@caseypdx503]

almost like Jordan Peterson was right several years ago about "post modern neo marxists" but everyone was so hysterical about saying he was wrong because they are two different ideologies (and just because it was Jordan Peterson), yet here we are...

[@adamcornell1186]

@@caseypdx503 no, he isn't right lol. There are practically no marxists teaching at universities in America. Liberals and conservatives share some values too, would you say they're the same thing? 🤣

[@amyscott3885]

Thankyou for point this out - I found this video so frustrating in its ignorance. Frankly just another example of so-called leftists knowingly or not being co-opted by the thought systems of liberal capitalism, as can be and frequently are the anti-capitalists and wokists causes/rhetorics.

[@walkerw79]

Thank you David. After having lived in Sweden for 10 years, I am a solid Social Democrat. Capitalism thrives there, and it's quite regulated too. But Stockholm is a world leader when it comes to tech start ups and billion dollar valuated tech start ups, lagging only behind Silicon Valley on a per capita basis.

[@CatDaddyGuitar]

Also, you explained this very well. It's very difficult sometimes to explain.

[@Odisseu_AOE]

Nice lecture dr David, more of those. 👍

[@Yo1297]

last thing we need in infighting ourselves. I am young and still trying to figure out everything i stand for but here are definte things i stand by such as acceptance of lgbtq people and a want to improv our immigration system and to have better conversations aboout immigration that isn't calling everyone illegal. Love watching your content

[@woodyhitya]

This video has such an excellent thesis. There’s nothing woke about communism

[@tagg1080]

Thanks for this david. These are tough conversations to have because everyone makes up their own definitions. Glad you are trying to have talks anyway.

[@lahoward55]

Yes. I have been a social democrat since Bernie defined it a few years back. Really fits my beliefs a lot better than most "labels".

[@kayleesimonpussinboots3505]

That's a very nuanced description of these two systems of thought. I recall when the Occupy Wall Street movement was running, it seemed that anti-capitalism was prominent in that, and it sort of faded away as "woke" ideology took hold, being championed by many corporations. I wonder what that is about as it seems odd to consider oneself a leftist while being aligned with many powerful corporations.

[@mechalpuco]

Pakman is conflating postmodernism and critical theory, these are very different ideologies.

[@boptillyouflop]

Critical theory and Postmodernism are quite different ideologies, but the modern intersectional crowd combines them together.

[@snapgab]

Yeah, critical theory literally came from modernists!

[@boptillyouflop]

@@snapgab As far as I can tell, most of the original Frankfurt School people were Marxists (though they were not necessarily Communists and were disappointed with the Soviet Union). My reading of how Adorno thought, is that he was disappointed that there was no socialist revolution in the West, and thought there was something wrong with the culture that prevented it. Hence "Critical Theory": going through our intellectual culture and trying to find the bad parts that made people submit to the domination of corporate owners and money. Adorno was a pessimist, and he thought it went extremely deep.

[@SpikeTFA]

Excellent video, I actually really love diving into theory. It can be a nice way to break up the monotony of current events, while deepening our understanding of them

[@coralbrune]

Yes more shows like this, I would applaud.

[@Chilltownify]

Capitalism does not work and we need a new economic system. Have Prof. Wolff on to educate your audience

[@VenomOXP]

This was super interesting David. I think you are doing your listeners a great service by helping to clearly delineate the boundaries between each camp on the left. I largely share your social democratic impulse, but the voice of your former professor (Richard Wolff) still occupies a good deal of real estate in my mind, warning that capitalism is an inherently irrational and parasitic system.

[@goinsaneonthedailydemonsinside]

david as a leftist can i just say that i am stunned that you dont know more about this. i love your show and you definitely know more about mainstream issues like social security than i do, but you totally misexplained the socialist versus communist distinction a la a freshman in college

[@jamesfrazier4005]

Marxism is an offshoot of socialism and both want to dismantle capitalism, for the sake of time I'm sure he summarized the anti-capitalist broadly instead of the book sized differences at an academic level. Either way, they both want the same outcome of a non-capitalist economic state and equally fit into the two broad categories that ultimately conflate with one another

[@breathuralic768]

both terms have had so many different definitions and at their very origin they were both just words used by Marx to describe his ideology, so it’s kind of inaccurate to name his definitions as flat-out wrong

[@danieltobin4498]

The average joe doesn't care about your theory or how smart you are.

[@bluethunder9102]

Some diagrams or writing would’ve went a long way to help see the differences.

[@robertomaglica765]

Very interesting. Such analysis of "the left" is not something I have really thought of so far. Yes, please do more segments like this.

[@michaelcordeiro12]

3 questions for social democrats. 1. Why have social democracies in Europe, or arguably the US around 1968, lost much of their social aspects and become more liberal? 2. Who does power reside with in a Social Democracy? 3. Why have most countries in south America, Asia, and Africa not been able to form social democracies? Is there any way that they could form social democracies?

[@ncwordman]

Commenting so I'll be alerted when someone more knowledgeable than me replies. I'd like to know the answers to those questions as well. :)

[@michaelcordeiro12]

@@ncwordman if they don't these are questions you can look up yourself if you're interested.

[@ncwordman]

@@michaelcordeiro12 True. I have a lot of learning to do with all this stuff.

[@snapgab]

Social democrats can't answer these questions, they're ideologically comitted to ignoring the inherent flaws of capitalism and the way it inevitably subverts and undermines all forms of democracy and equality. The only way to create a society that is social in a lasting way, rather than being corrupted and undermined by capital interests in 50 years or so, is to fully commit to worker rights, it's to become socialist. And I mean true socialism, where workers have the power, not the "Vanguardism" from the USSR where you have an authoritarian one party state where a group of oligarchs are in charge of everything. No, socialism, worker rule, workers control both the state and the companies where they work.

[@adrianime5838]

This is one of the first videos of yours I've watched since I left the daily political cycle in 2020. It's a really good video and talks about 2 parts of the left that I absolutely hate. I don't identify as any particular political ideology. I like to evaluate individual ideas on their merits rather than say X ideology is correct. That being said, social democracy tends to have the ideas I have the least problems with. I feel the anti cap and the woke portions of the left are destructive to the movement towards a better society - if only because they make the left look crazy and stop us from making the incremental progress we need.

[@paulconnaway]

Anarchism is a pretty established criticism of both social and economic hierarchies.

[@cheenis420]

how does the absence of economic hierarchy work?

[@cheenis420]

oh wait im seeing what youre saying now

[@paulconnaway]

there are many perspectives on the specifics, if you want to know more you can google "an anarchist faq" - its available all over the place@@cheenis420

[@ulicadluga]

Anarchism surely relegated itself to eternal opposition. What would happen if a "truly" anarchist party came to power - surely, an "immediate contradiction"?

[@danielbarrera8391]

I used to identify as Anarchist or I subscribed to it - still do to an extent - but after taking a political ideology test, I realized I have some internal conflict with it. I'm curious about social democracy and will probably look it up for more information and find inspiration. However, it's hard for me to not feel more impartial towards Anarchism anyway. But I tend to think it seems very lazy. Or its just very underrepresented and not challenged very much so it's hard to really give it a solid foundation for sound arguments.

[@thealternative9580]

Every aspect of society and government must be examined thoroughly based on knew knowledge and technology.

[@ninaanderson5876]

Yes more of this. Please refer to these ideologies as manifested in our real time political conflicts.

[@spencerantoniomarlen-starr3069]

I'm glad you are still using the word woke. For years, it was only used as a self description. I heard it for the first time in 2014, and back then, right wingers called them social justice warriors. But they all called themselves woke for years, then right wing people realized they call themselves woke, so they did too... Then the woke stopped using the term and saying only right wing people use that term.

[@ladyliberty417]

Thanks David❣️ Social democracy needs explaining regularly and it’s good that you want to take on the task!! You said it well💙💙

[@kensheck2049]

I am all for more videos about this topic - maybe you can spark some conversations that help us to see, and value more, what we have in common. And your description of Social Democracy fits me pretty much to a T. Now I know why I listen to you - validation. 🙂

[@phillipwalker787]

The divide between anti-capitalist and 'woke' factions within the left is often overstated and rooted in a misunderstanding. They do not conflict and it's low effort to say they are, It shows a lack of proper research. Both approaches are grounded in Marxist economic critique and the Frankfurt School's critical theory, are not at odds but complementary. They apply a dialectical analysis to different facets of society-economics and culture respectively. Embracing a 'Holistic Socialism' that integrates these views can bridge this gap. This unified approach acknowledges that economic justice and social justice are intertwined, advocating for a society where every individual contributes according to their ability, promoting equity, compassion, and sustainability. It's time to move beyond division and work together towards a more inclusive, just, and harmonious world.

[@TonGolem]

One of your best videos. Please make more like this 👌

[@davidrothgeb7469]

Great job presenting this David

[@TheRagnarok428]

I very much appreciated this segment

[@salutic.7544]

This is extremely dishonest and an ahistorical framing of intimately interconnected ideologies. Yes class reductionism and identity politics are big ideological strifes within the “left” but that strife doesn’t negate or make the synthesis of these ideas lazy.

[@snapgab]

He's just blatantly lying, he knows better. Marx and Engels harshly criticized class reductionists! It's never been inherent to anti capitalism.

[@michaelneedssleep]

This dichotomy doesn’t really exist. There are class-reductionists, but that is a small (and very annoying) slice of leftism. Intersectionality includes class. It’s really that simple. There’s no conflict.

[@rustylidrazzah5170]

You are correct. It doesn’t exist. Unless a person can split Angela Davis in two.

[@iMakePlaylists365]

I have been trying to verbalize this for years. Been calling it Socialist Capitalist, lol. Social Democrat. Perfect. Thank you for the course, sir. 🙏🏼

[@WilfridCyrus]

I'm a social democrat too. I take ideas from post structuralism, socialism, liberalism, and of course democracy.

[@russellchud]

I enjoy topics like these. More please!

[@plots4]

Love these types of discussions. I know my views but you helped me to clarify how they intersect. Ideally, I’d be on the anti-capitalist side but I don’t want to go through the revolution it would require, so I now lean towards the social democracy group. I support a lot of what the woke group is about, but I think free speech is paramount and don’t like cancel culture.

[@grantbello8695]

I remember having these discussions with friends after the 2016 election. Right wing friends thought the Bernie movement WAS an identitarian movement, and left wing feminist friends thought everyone on the left agreed with them. I think it is an interesting distinction, but today, I don't think it really matters where anyone stands on the kind of left we advocate for because the moment of the left is politically over. I do like theory dave though.

[@PartIAm-jx6xw]

Very good topic in my opinion! I think that one of the biggest difference between Social democracy and Anti-capitalist / Woke is that the latter ones are more radical in their approaches. I mean that they want to make bigger and faster changes on the ongoing capitalist based system whereas Social democracy want to, so to speak, play by the rules that has been set by the capitalists. It has many benefits, but also some disadvantages. Social democratic system e.g.ensures moderate wellbeing for the majorities and sets us towards more equal society, in many ways. But when it becomes oppositing right wing capitalists and their methods, Social democracy may not be that ”feisty” compared to Anti-capitalism or Woke. I don’t know…

[@howto1537]

I just want to say that this is the most thought provoking video I’ve seen from David and I’d like more 👍 I could elaborate but I’ll leave that for now-

[@bryceosborne4357]

I can certainly appreciate the more pragmatic side of social democracy, altho i feel it worth mentioning that we used to have higher tax rates for the rich and the republicans routinely cut into those taxes. I understand how monumumental a task it would be to move towards a more traditional socialist society but i think it would also be much harder to dismantle.

[@matthewa5369]

I fall in the more pragmatic part. I think this kind of talk is important to make sense of the left and we don't have enough of it.

[@DeasheTata]

I would just use the good and practical ideas in both and apply them situationally. I don't have to subscribe to both religiously. It may be low effort since I'm layering them on top of each other but it saves me the trouble of tearing down my worldview each time I see something conflict with it.

[@sideline4937]

Excellent discussion. Continue with more of this. Social democracy is the way to go.

[@timopraxis]

I like this topic. As someone who identifies with both anti-racism work and socialism, I think the focus on power analysis works around race and class and their relationship. But I agree that I find some anti-capitalist work overly reductive in minimizing difference. So I guess I am a postmodern socialist (Michael Hardt and Antonio Negri are two examples).

[@ulicadluga]

This is intellectually challenging - and definitely these are subjects I'd like to hear discussed on your channel. The problem I have, is that I can't put my finger on what sort of society we actually live in. It seems to evolve from a constant battle of deaf-mute ideologies. "Social Democracy" is often bundled in with Socialism, even Marxism, Communism or Maoism - by people with right-wing beliefs. That clearly is a hinderence to understanding Social Democracy. On the other hand, right-wing, "small government" Conservatism is often perceived as anarchic, almost as a Eugenicist attitude, embracing localism or ethnicity to create a society determined by the "use of force" and extreme identity-based "entitlement. So, perhaps Social-Democracts, as sometimes superficially seen in Scandinavia, Germany and to some extent in France, are constantly trying to remove themselves from political characterisation, and towards ethical "pragmatism". Is it better to rename the "philosophy" of Social-Democracy if many people misunderstand the many sobriquets given to it?

[@robtbo]

I’d think the goal of validating identity is to normalize is for the purpose of ending discrimination… not to perpetuate cultural divisions. Once vastly diverse identities which don’t intrude on anyone else’s rights (we don’t validate an identity as a mass murderer) are seen as nobody else’s business… the need to identify in those particular ways becomes obsolete.

[@arrow1414]

The thing with David's differentiating between Communism and Socialism in that Communism is the government owning the economic means of production and Socialism is the "social ownership" of the means of production. What is the mechanism of the social ownership of the means of production if not the Government? All companies being run by the workers but still independent from the government?

[@taylorswan8587]

The entire premise of communism is the evolution of a stateless society

[@Craxin01]

The divergence between different branches within the left or within the right (as opposed to between the left and right) illuminates one greater truth. No ideology is true. While I hold certain ideals, maybe taking bits and bobs from different ideologies, even my cobbled together ideology isn't true. If we were a wiser people, we'd set up models of the different ideologies using volunteers who adhere to those ideologies, and test to see which aspects of the different ideologies have more or less utility and try expanding those until we find a functional and adaptive system, making small tweaks as necessary.

[@eeeeyuke]

The problem with trying to make everything equal economically is there will always be people, in power especially, that won't sacrifice to be equal. Which makes the person that's supposed to be equal feel UNEQUAL.

[@heyhey3185]

These ideas complement each other, and do not exclude each other. The fight against injustice is both economic and cultural.

[@2020-p2z]

Never really thought about what label applies to me. I have opinions on issues. I think we could do better than capitalism, but history shows us that revolution is brutal, bloody, and delivers outcomes that are often ideologically counter to what people wanted.

[@vikuswavy5785]

Me coming into politics and then the left (growing up in a conservative environment) was just purely about racism way back then honestly. After a while, I changed my frame of reference dramatically and I've become much more pragmatic and more focused on fulfillment outside of exclusive identities in favor of unity outside the bounds of something like Religion, which has a lot of pitfalls as far as safety and security go, enabling dangerous and violent delusions and such. From this standpoint, life looks a lot less scary, makes way more sense, and just feels easier to live. As far as economy goes, I never internalized being poor when I grew up as such, I was just a kid looking at the world around him. If I was susceptible to falling for Communism as a concept, seeing a good enough argument to veer away from it is all I needed.

[@colinbunn1213]

I see the comparison that you explained well, but im struggling to see how they are in significant conflict. MLK was both an anti-capitalist and saw things from racial identity. I think its consistent for folks like him to wrestle w a reality of a society that constructed identities like race gender and class while also wrestling with the economic/political systems that created those conditions in the past /perpetuate them today

[@whitenoise61]

I take issue with the idea that there are only two factions on the left and I take issue with the term "anti-capitalist." I'm as far left as anyone I know (or a bit farther) and I'm not against capitalism, I still feel the best system you could ever have is heavily regulated capitalism. It just doesn't work unless it's heavily regulated because people and companies can't be trusted to do the right thing if left on the honor system. Greed takes over and they start taking shortcuts and cutting corners and taking advantage of the rest of us regular people. And now as soon as I've typed all that you go on to explain social democracy where you are, and that's where most of us are as well I think, and of course people like Bernie. It's often called a 'mixed economy' taking the best elements of both capitalism and socialism. I do think that quite often when people are accused of or even maybe identify as "Marxist" what they really believe or advocate for when taken issue by issue is something closer to social democracy.

[@Kazutoification]

I feel like the two ideologies do have a certain level of cross-over. Despite race being arbitrary, as a general trend, a person's race may affect their ability to participate in the economy (i.e. many communities of color are considered to be 'disadvantaged'). This principle should also apply to other facets of a person's identity (gender, age, etc.). A person's freedoms and liberties should also affect their ability to participate in the economy. If I were being lazy, I might just say what you're describing would be: "the federal government providing stimulus checks and loan forgiveness programs during the pandemic" vs. "large swathes of the population demanding their elected officials to pass legislation that would address social inequalities". I don't think they're necessarily mutually exclusive ideologies to have. The social inequalities, in my view, are born out of income/wealth inequalities, which are born out of other social inequalities. Communities of color aren't inherently disadvantaged. They become that way as a result of things like the War on Drugs (which often creates gangs, which then leads to a death-spiral of policing, and often causes funds to funnel towards policing instead of schools or other social programs). I also feel like many voters are generally not plugged into politics. Many of the woke identity politics Left (usually Liberals) will give support purely on identity because they make an assumption of identity solidarity - that people who are like them will share similar ideas. This becomes an issue once people start thinking in absolutes and monoliths. It's probably why many of Pete Buttigieg's supporters would call opposition as anti-gay, or Kamala Harris's supporters would call opposition anti-woman, anti-Asian, anti-Black. Though, as candidates, I wouldn't necessarily place Buttigieg or Harris in the woke identity politics Left. Neoliberal? I think the Squad can generally be accepted as people who have both ideologies. AOC stated that poverty may lead to an increase in crime, so it should follow that if a place wants a decrease in crime, the economic woes of the people should be addressed.

[@JAYDUBYAH29]

This is great, David. I’m in your camp.

[@lydiagall4335]

What about social liberalism? In your opinion, what is the key difference between social democracy and social liberalism? Would be keen to know, as a Swede, born in the 70s and where social democracy reigned for nearly 50 years straight (then on and off since 80s) and we were raised in society accordingly. The woke /anti-capitalist left ideologies have been ever present and interwoven in our society for decades without necessarily using the those terms. Would be interesting to have an American take. I very much enjoy your channel!