Legacy V EV-Only Brands. Which Should You Buy? Its Complicated.

For a very long time, the general wisdom in the EV world was that legacy automakers should be avoided at all costs - and that true EV customers only purchased EVs from startups and dedicated non-ICE-making automakers.
But is that still the case? Do EV only brands still have the advantage over legacy automakers? Or are things much more complicated than they once were?
We think so - and here's why.
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00:00 - Introduction
05:05 - The answer on legacy Vs EV only used to be easier
05:31 - We SHOULD acknowledge the past - but judge based on contemporary actions
06:50 - TL:DR
07:46 - Where dedicated EV firms shine
12:33 - A side note on development cycles
13:22 - Legacy brands tend to fare best when it comes to 'traditional car' stuff
18:28 - Loyalty and Hype - dedicated brands win
20:06 - Legacy brands are starting to behave more like startups
21:43 - After Sales and Service
22:58 - ..but that's not true for older limited-production EVs from legacy brands
25:22 - Legacy brands behaving like startups
26:34 - Thanks, and Goodbye!
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Presenter, Script, Audio, Camera, Editor, Colorist:: Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield.
Art and Animation: Erin Carlie
Producer: Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield
© Transport Evolved LLC, 2024
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[@jamesheartney9546]

2021 Bolt EV. We were some of the lucky ones that got the full battery replacement. Car is great for day-to-day use - reliable, cheap, fun to drive. We have home charging (leftover from our old Leaf) which is really convenient. Mostly, it's been a joy. We plan on keeping it till it dies or we do. My guess is we'll go first. We've done some 500 mile road trips, and they worked OK, though it was extra hours on the road. Not likely to do anything much longer than that, though.

[@FameyFamous]

I bought a new 2023 Bolt. I'm mostly happy with it. I'm annoyed that GM decided not to sell a 2024 model. I'm skeptical about the next generation Bolt that might come to market in the next year or two. I like Google Maps with Android Auto. I don't want to have to pay my carmaker a subscription to a worse navigation system.

[@i6power30]

They are all copying Tesla and Apple with walled garden model trying to trap you in with subscription payments.

[@rp9674]

Part of the reason I got my 2023 bolt EV is to ensure that I have Android auto, also next gen may have shorter range and faster charging. I'd rather have the current config, also it can't cannibalize sales of Equinox EV. I don't want a bigger Bolt or even EUV.

[@airplanenut6242]

The Bolt is an amazing commuter vehicle! Been loving my older model. Sure it’d be nice if it charged faster from DC, but in the year I’ve had it, I’ve only dcfc once.

[@FameyFamous]

@@rp9674 I also don't want a bigger Bolt. I also like the big battery. I don't drive a lot on weekdays, but I need to go at least 170 miles every Saturday. It's great to be able to do that without stopping for a charge, even in the winter.

[@rp9674]

I haven't DC slow/fast charged yet. I plan on using the extra time to smell the coffee, if ya know what I'm brewin

[@nfbsl32]

All valid points the most important to me is how legacy auto treats me as a customer. The dealerships, once locally owned and friendly have become adversarial and underhanded. My first purchase of a start up EV, a used Model 3 from tesla was above board and congenial. My service experience, once I figured out the app was better than any recent experiences I have had with legacy brands. Thanks for the show. I always find it thought provoking.

[@transportevolved]

Interestingly, we’re still seeing some good indie dealerships here - Nikki

[@stevewausa]

24:50 exactly my approach. Buying the kind of vehicle I want the company to continue to develop is the most direct way to incentivize them I can have.

[@transportevolved]

It’s nice to be validated!

[@John.0z]

I do agree; but that is hard when there are no vehicles available that fit my need - or the car space I have. I have tried to tell the dealerships. . . . . . No response to that approach. My next thing will be the try contacting the importers and/or manufacturers. I don't like to sound negative, but based on their past behaviour, I find it hard to believe that I will do any better. To express that slightly differently with an example; Elon Musk may not be all and everything at Tesla, but he has some VERY fixed ideas about what cars he wants, and what he thinks we buyers are supposed to want. So far the cars Tesla make match Musk's vision very closely. Unfortunately for me, I would really like something like a longer range Fiat 500e. Where is the Tesla in that area of the market? Or GM, or Ford? Or Hyundai/Kia? From the number of ICE Fiat 500s, and similar competitors, to be seen on the roads, that is a highly desirable size of car for a lot of buyers. My understanding is that Musk does not _want_ to make one...regardless of it's market appeal. From the way they are all rushing to build SUVs, usually big ones, it would seem the other manufacturers do not either. Perhaps as a response to a similarly strong-willed person in upper management? And despite Musk's early suggestions of collaborating or technology sharing with other makers to produce what some might call niche models, but in fact are a significant % of ICE car sales, I have not heard of Tesla doing any collaboration. I know that small cars are a very difficult business to make money in; but that is what I understood the "collaboration" claim to reference - working with a manufacturer that is geared up to make products in that market.

[@Comm0ut]

Direct cash donations are even more direct.

[@insightamization]

I suspect this will not be the first time you try and sort this issue out. Keep up the fair approach. Thanks!

[@rp9674]

2015 Fiat 500e - extremely reliable, fun, fast. Plenty of body parts available. Stillanus is hostile toward it as ever, If they didn't hate it so much, they could have put a slightly bigger battery in it and got so much more utility. If you look past slurs such as compliance car and city car and evaluate it on its merit, it's excellent! I also own a 23 Bolt EV & 15 BMW i3 REX.

[@KaiPonte]

Friend of mine leased a 500e for his son to use at university. That car was TINY!! However, somehow he was able to fit himself and two friends on the occasional night out.

[@rp9674]

Plenty of room in front, plenty room in back for smal children or tortured adults

[@mockingbird187]

They did just that with the new 500e. About 150 miles range... but that range, for the price... just not a great value compared to other options out there.

[@andyrichardson7558]

Legacy auto is getting their EV game together faster than new EV brands are fixing their service and support issues, but they'll both need to get better. This question may not need to be asked as soon as 5 years or so into the future.

[@10lawngnomes37]

I think an understated issue with "legacy auto" is their sales strategy and pressure they get from dealerships. There's an expectation for model improvement in range/performance literally every year. With ICE models they can make a few tweaks to a gear ratio, transmission, and/or motor combo that's used across several vehicles to make the 'new' version have slightly higher numbers at relatively little cost. That's much harder with EVs. The EV only brands make upgrades and improvements when needed and available, not because some dealerships are complaining there haven't been any bells and whistles added in the past 14 months to spend marketing budgets on.

[@i6power30]

completely false.

[@10lawngnomes37]

@@i6power30 very insightful. Please elaborate

[@i6power30]

@@10lawngnomes37 You are right about legacy autos only make miniscule improvements to ICE vehicles, because there is not much to be done with them, other than small changes. But the same can be true for EVs. How many version of FSD in the past 5 years were just one more update away from full autonomy? Battery chemistry has seen very little improvement over the past 20 years, until recent Chinese entrance into the game. If it were just Panasonic and LG, we would still be using the same 10+ year old NMC battery chemistry today, unlike the complete game changers from CATL's LFP, BYD's blade battery, and Zeekr's golden pack that can charge under 10 minutes and fire resistance up to 1000 degrees. Without the Chinese, Tesla would still be using old Panasonic cells that are pretty much obsolete. So no, innovation in EVs are not really driven by Tesla or Rivian, it's more from the competition in China. Now both Ford and GM are also going to use CATL batteries for their future EVs. I don't think dealership or no dealership matters in this case, though admittedly I also don't like dealerships, but they are not what's holding back innovation. The lack of innovation in ICE is because ICE has already hit the peak, and EV tech is just getting started, and there is a lot of foreign competition driving the space as well.

[@leax_Flame]

I think the criticism for legacy EVs are very accurate when referring to Toyota. However they fall short when you look at Hyundai/Kia. They have an excellent model and is one of the best platforms out there. I’m excited for the Forte/K4 and Elantra sized versions.

[@transportevolved]

We are BIG fans of the e-GMP platform. In fact, it’s the best bang for your buck of any EV platform! - Nikki

[@Paul-cj1wb]

I heard they are moving away, or at least improving it, possibly with a new name to fix it's major flaw -- its horrendous 400v charging. So yes, as I've said often, Hyundai/Kia is by far the best positioned legacy automaker. They are not in any way pulling back on their full EV developments.

[@Yanquetino]

Whichever model best fits your transportation needs.

[@robfelts8076]

Thoughtful and well presented as always.

[@petersente83]

The coolest, funkiest, most adorable and very well handling EV ever made to this day, comes from a Japanese (!!) legacy brand... The fabulous (and already legendary, as it is no longer in production) Honda e :)

[@ashtaroth1975]

BYD have turn around it's production model in record time. Legacy could have done the same but looks like they are not feelling the presure yet

[@i6power30]

Exactly.. It's not legacy vs EV. As long as you have will power to innovate and charge you can. Just look at some of the Chinese auto such as BYD. It's mostly the western legacy and Japan autos have gone lazy

[@UshasRides]

Thanks you!… you hit the nail on the head re. The differences. I’ve been in IT and software development for over 35 years and I have always said if you want your old car to run on a battery then go for one of the legacy makers. If you like innovation, are not afraid of computers and like software that just works (most of the time) then go for an EV first maker.

[@manuelias86]

When politics force vehicle choices, manufactures are going to choose one side or the other depending what makes them more money in the short term. Unless of course you have strong leadership

[@tobias_dahlberg]

I see what you mean with Polestar. I think their model is quite interesting. They use the manufacturing know-how and resources, platforms and technologies, supply chains and supplier relationships - to effectively gain the benefits of both sides. Smaller company, focused direction, but not needing to build everything on their own. So they design their cars, and they engineer only what needs to be re-engineered to make an already existing platform "feel like a Polestar". It's quite clever, with access to the whole Geely ecosystem of platforms, parts and manufacturing facilities, they can create something new and unique within an already existing and very well functioning system, mechanically.

[@rp9674]

Considering a used Polestar 2 for my next, to replac when it failse bmw i3

[@tobias_dahlberg]

@@rp9674 Great drivers’ car. A little cramped in the interior but great handling and what not. You’ll love it. Friend of mine has one and I really like that car. It has a couple downsides but if those are ones you can live with, everything else is absolutely fantastic.

[@brady783]

Living in both worlds, one legacy EV and one from a stand alone EV company, the differences are obvious. I love having dealer support for our legacy car, anywhere we may go. Also the practical engineering with shared parts and build quality have stood the test of time. The service centers for the other are few and far between and basic services have to be scheduled months ahead to account for travel. On the flip side, the up to date technology, with OTA updates and engineering details are far superior in the stand alone brand. The updates have improved it during my ownership. There's give & take, but we love both of our EVs.

[@gb59]

You’re absolutely right Nikki, a car from the likes of the Ford skunkworks or Polestar is the best of both worlds. Just wish I could afford a Polestar. A Polestar 4 would be dreamy.

[@EliotHochberg]

The tech bro mindset is the biggest negative and not just the auto industry, but across the board in industries where people depend on products either for their survival, or for their jobs. This can’t be understated: the software industry has led the way in not completing products before release. Any product therefore which includes software as a fundamental aspect of its operation is subject to the same mentality. What’s more, there is an attitude of trying to force Updates on consumers and users. Fortunately, with a little bit of research, you can opt out of automated updates. But it is becoming a parent that such out is being resisted more and more. Why this is extremely bad is when manufactures and producers fundamentally change the nature of a product with a software update. We are starting to see companies take away features with software updates. Often, features that are what you bought the product for in the first place. But the worst part about it is that auto manufacturers specifically, but companies across the board, are coming to the realization that subscriptions are the way that they can make the most money. We’ve seen the backlash against with BMW was doing with regards to heated seats, and Mercedes, and whoever else. There are arguments back-and-forth, but we are on the cusp of living in a world where you don’t own anything anymore. This is fine if you sign a lease, but if you get a loan or pay cash outright for a physical product, and then find out a year or two down the line that some feature that was in it is no longer available unless you pay a subscription fee, That is underhanded, and avoidably unfair. We are often told in essence that that’s the price of progress. The companies can’t afford to support old features when they’re moving forward with new ones. This would be OK if companies were still selling in this case vehicles that didn’t require electronics in order to operate. After all, Even with the newest type of batteries, complicated software-based systems are not required to keep them safe. They make it easier of course, but it is not impossible to do. And there’s nothing that says that a car has to have an electronic system. A simple LCD screen is more than sufficient for the functions that are necessary to keep a lithium ion battery pack system safe. So if every manufacture sold a simple electric vehicle that didn’t require all of this extra software in it, then it would be less of a problem. Instead, it seems like auto manufacturers no matter what the form of propulsion Are taking inspiration from smart phones and trying to turn vehicles into money sinkholes Of all the negatives that result from the electric vehicle industry, this is the most important one. And in fact, it seems like only the Chinese manufacturers understand this. Which is good, because I’m not particularly interested in a Chinese company Which is beholden to the Chinese communist party having a hook in an infotainment system in my car. If only China wasn’t using unfair business practices, this would be the biggest reason to buy a simple Chinese electric vehicle, assuming it’s from one of the Chinese brands that is taking the timeto be quality competitive with legacy brands from the rest of the world.

[@codedGiraffe]

Other than a BECM issue I've enjoyed my 2018 Volt

[@ElectricCarAustralia]

Great episode 👍

[@patrick7228]

I have zero issue with legacy auto. I have a huge issue with legacy dealerships so I am hesitant about getting an ev from them, although I have. The amount of times I've gone for test drives and the salesman don't know anything about the vehicle or outright tell me not to buy it, is ridiculous. We only have one technician so the wait might be long, we don't really have parts etc. Is selling an EV still not money in your pocket? Test driving a Volvo recharge the salesman told me if Volvo goes full electric he will quit 😂. So I'm just waiting for the R2...

[@theairstig9164]

The people at the MG dealer were awesome. They cheerily said “tell all your friends about us and see you for your first service in two years”. In comparison to every other dealer … on the same street as you do … they were polar opposites. The people at Hyundai Kia wouldn’t let me test drive anything not ICE. Due to HKMA direct selling EVs online the dealers got a flat $1800 delivery fee and that was it. You either wanted an EV which in that case you got in line, or you didn’t

[@laurensargent9471]

Still no legacy auto EVs easily, quickly, affordably available here in southeast Michigan.

[@stephenboyington630]

What would you consider an affordable price, and for what type of EV?

[@theairstig9164]

No Prius prime or RAV4 PHEV or Corolla PHEV in all of Australia

[@brentpilgrim4692]

Thanks Nikki. Another informative video ❤

[@PierreAlainMaire]

i3, Zoe, Leaf, iMiEV are on the roads since more than 11 years, so big brands eventually tried to do something. But they could have done better since, and newcomers are willing to do better from their start. Should we punish those who cheated on us, like the big 5 germans did (and still do) ? YES ! We should give our money to the brands who deserve it 🙂 thank you for the video 🙂

[@PierreAlainMaire]

@@markplott4820 if true, how do you explain that ?

[@transportevolved]

He doesn’t @pierreAlainMaire. He is an angry little man who wants to feel smug.

[@nospamallowed4890]

I am moving and buying both a new home and a new car in two weeks. This has been brewing for 2 years and I did a lot of research as I wanted to go EV. What I found: - Zero EVs in my price range for 2024. Yes, not a single one. Some (not many) in my price/value range but depreciation and insurance make them not viable for me. - The first EV I would and probably will eventually buy is announced for 2024 and is not really a car, but rather a car/motorcycle hybrid with A/C, but realistically I don’t see it hitting the market until 2025. - The first EV truly worth my money - the Aptera - is announced for this year, and already has a 2 year waiting list. It will likely start shipping in 2025 and if I wait to place an order until it is actually available with a 1-month wait… it will probably be 2028-2030 before I can get one. *TLDR*:only startups are even trying to make EVs in the traditional subcompact or below price ranges. So, I ended up about to buy a new home with a type 2 charger and a fuel efficient and inexpensive ICE, plus e-bikes. Yeah, nuts. But with all the noise and bluster, neither the US government nor the car manufacturers are truly serious about making EVs available for the masses.

[@gunnarparment5050]

Good points throughout the vid. I have considered a Tesla and taken the model Y for a test drive, and also test driven several other EVs, but in the end I bought the Toyota Bz4x. Several factors nudged me in different directives before I made the decision. As I'm not impressed by Teslas leadership, I must admit that Mr Toyoda isn't much better and the VW board kicking out their greatest asset, Mr Diess, I found it very difficult to make ideological decisions. In the end, I stuck with what I knew, the Toyota quality. Having seen the Prius Plug-in make 400,000 km with very little repair needed, I'm really impressed. I wouldn't recommend my car to everyone, but with the Li-Ion cells supplied to the cars in my region, the only big caveat is the charging speed in winter. I don't drive long distance in the winter, so it's perfect for me.

[@StephenMatrese]

My daughter was part of the national school walk-out a few years back... STILL waiting on that Soros check

[@MCP647]

Excellent video comparing the differences of each manufacture type! The tech background of the EV only manufactures has one major downside though, a little too willing to break the mold without enough consideration of safety, like removal of all physical buttons and even changing how you turn on your directional indicators, or non-round steering wheels, things that have been standardized in nearly every vehicle for a long, long time. Road safety will suffer from some of these decisions when people switch vehicle, or rent, etc. Legacy automakers on the other hand, while offering OTA updates, are still struggling with some mistakes with that process.... it's their bleeding edge, or teething stage I guess, hopefully we get fail-safe updates very quickly.

[@spuddy4063]

Very nice presentation Nikki.. Although I am of the opinion that the USA position on the "Diesel Gate" VW penalty was merely a slap on their wrist and seriously what incentive does putting in an EV infrastructure do for the EV market when clearly VW is not intending to pursue an EV future. AS in why promote an EV when they obviously could care less if human's live or die. Why does VW as it seems to me ensure that they don't intend to maintain the Electrify America network when their objective is Internal Combustion only?

[@danielmadar9938]

Thanks

[@CC-iq2pe]

It’s not complicated. Buy the one that makes you happy with your purchase.

[@EliotHochberg]

Another important thing you can look at as either a positive or a negative is that legacy auto makers have relationships typically with unions that newer ground up EV companies don’t have. As result, it is far more likely than a newer EV auto maker will simply not deal with unions, and may have safety and corporate issues in dealing with their employees. I’m not thinking of any specific company. Not any specific company at all.

[@jamesphillips2285]

I put a deposit on a 2011 Leaf the other day. Today I learned that the passenger airbag proximity sensor is faulty: and that replacement parts (read: the whole seat assembly) are not available.

[@laurensargent9471]

GM would not allow us to purchase our leased 2020 Bolt, would not let us extend the lease unless we ordered another car and had no EV available to order. Ford had nothing available, neither did Hyundi or Toyota or Honda. We bought a Tesla-delivered in less than 2 weeks. This was March 2023.

[@Shane-zl9ry]

I own a Chevy Spark EV and a Bolt. I notice it's hard to find a new EUV. I just bought a Tesla Y two days ago. Not sure what GM is thinking.

[@fonkenful]

@@Shane-zl9ryBut, that $100,000 Silverado pickup will deliver over 440miles per charge, and it’s got more than enough room for daily driver grocery getter😂

[@rp9674]

Maybe it varies by dealer. My sis bought out her (2019 or 2020?) Bolt. I got a 2023 Bolt EV.

[@Shane-zl9ry]

@@fonkenful I don't need a truck. If I did, I would just rent one for a day.

[@fonkenful]

@@Shane-zl9ry I was being facetious, alluding to what I’m perceiving to be GM’s current production/marketing strategy, and their release of vehicles to certain KZbinrs.

[@StephenMatrese]

Chevy seems to have lost interest in the Bolt, I bought a 2023 Bolt EUV on 1/31/2024... It was in the shop for charging issues for 5 weeks after 12 days and

[@passmoj]

I've had my eye on the Ionic 5. Testdrove one last night.

[@ouch1011]

They are excellent cars, I was very happy with mine. Traded it in because my situation changed and needed something with 6 passenger capacity, otherwise I’d still have it

[@robertbetancourt1386]

This is also true with Canoo with Bank of America and Wells Fargo is only going through dealers.

[@jdray]

Personally I'm strongly in favor of the Polestar model (new EV-only* company spawned out of a legacy automaker). I'd rather see someone with a good design idea partner with a legacy automaker to form such a company than go through struggles of setting up new manufacturing facilities, establishing networks of repair locations, building parts backlogs, etc. Models like that would put more EVs in the garages of consumers faster. * Discounting the existence of the Polestar-1

[@EliotHochberg]

I don’t know if it’s intended, but it seems like there’s an undertone with regard to third-party parts manufacturer suggesting that they’re being unreasonable when they charge more for lower quantities, or simply refuse to be involved unless the quantities are sufficient. This is more of a discussion of capitalism in general and supply chain specifically, but I can speak from person experience with regard to another industry which is a print industry. While every company can make choices with regard to what they charge and what their minimums are, the fact of the matter is that there are physical limitations involved in making things. And depending on the hardware you’re using to make those things, it may not be legitimately possible to manufacture in small runs. Or if you can manufacture in small runs, then it simply takes more and cost them more to do it. In the print industry, very often if you have a large enough press, turning it on and off for two seconds in 1000 copies of whatever you’re printing. If you’re exclusively using that kind of equipment, you simply can’t sell somebody less than 1000 copies of something. And given how long it takes to transition over from one project to another, there’s no cost-effective way to do it. Meanwhile, other companies invest in equipment that can’t cost effectively print 1 million copies of something, but can do 20 at a high price. But one which may make sense for prototypes. Finally, their companies who invest in equipment that is specifically designed for short runs, and while there may be compromises here there, they can do so at a cost that falls comfortably between prototype cost and large run cost. I would imagine therefore, that for parts suppliers, it is a similar situation. The difference being that very often these parts can’t really have any compromises. In other words, if you’re making a luxury car, you may be able to make some choiceswith regards to just how luxurious a particular part is. But no manufacturer of an automobile can afford to compromise on the quality of a suspension, or a passenger seat, or window glass. And so unlike the print industry, they probably have fewer levers to pull to decide to charge less for shorter runs of product.

[@joevwgti.]

I wanted to speak to your irritation with updates. My car just took the update allowing full self driving, and I make it a point to read the release notes. At no point did I see it was going to opt me in, and turn off double-tap for use. So, had I put my car in what I thought would be cruise(single tap), I'd have found it now yanks the steering control away from me. Opt-in is not ever acceptable as a default. I get ole whats-his-face wants more training data, but I'd suggest he ask in future.

[@thorbjrnhellehaven5766]

I welcome every legacy automaker to prove themselves in the EV market! However some of them send mixed signals, and I struggle to trust their commitments. Like when a company insists on using a doomed alternative technology, instead of BEV, and they make a significant argument that they will continue to put resources in development of every possible type of drivetrain.

[@JHDundrum]

I've had a legacy ground up EV and a legacy non-ground up diamond so far on grounds of price. The Aptera (fingers crossed it becomes a reality) might be the first startup EV for me if I need to change cars in future...unless used Taycan's get really cheap : )

[@ouch1011]

I’ve owned an EV only brand (2 Teslas) and a few legacy brand EVs (Chevy, Hyundai and Kia). To put it very generally, legacy manufacturers build better cars, EV brands build better tech. Teslas arguably have the best tech of any car, ev or otherwise, but both Teslas I’ve owned (and others I’ve experienced) have a shocking number of faults in the basic, fundamental parts of a car (panel gaps, water leaks, loose fasteners, interior rattles, etc). All of the legacy brand EVs I’ve owned have substantially fewer basic build quality and design issues, but the tech lags way behind Tesla (although my EV9 at least feels like it’s in the same century). I wrote all of this while your video was playing, and I now see that you basically already said the exact same thing lol The Tesla buying experience isn’t as great as the fanatics make it out to be. I’ve bought 2. Their #1 priority is volume, they want you in and out as quickly as possible. If you have questions, their answer is to watch the how to videos. If you have dmv/registration issues, too bad, contact the dmv and deal with it yourself. The purchase experience itself is better if your ideal situation is treating a vehicle purchase the same as placing a food order online at a chain restaurant, but if you want to talk to a person, tough. If you want to take a test drive, better schedule it and don’t count on test driving the actual vehicle you’ll be buying. I’m not saying the dealership buying experience is good or even acceptable, but the Tesla buying experience isn’t good either.

[@michaeloreilly657]

gm went down the independent dkunkworks route with Cruise. Ain't gonna happen again!

[@theairstig9164]

They appear to have sidled up to Honda so they can share the next round of losses. GM and Hyundai ate a massive loss on the LG Chem battery recall. It’s not the poor engineering it’s the idea that consumer fealty follows both the marque and the packaging. Millions of people are on their four or even seventh Corolla because it takes no thinking. Does making a HRV in to a battery car have any logic if people want a nice ICE car that the BEV isn’t even though they look the same? Let’s find out!

[@AlainODea]

Locally available service and parts is a big reason why we went with Hyundai over Tesla. I really like Tesla's vehicles but there is still a gap in terms of service in far flung places like where I live.

[@michaelsmithers4900]

I think when reviewing cars, creating content for the average consumer, we need a language to delineate pure EVs from EV conversations or EVs crammed into ICE platforms. Teslas worst car was their Lotus conversion Roadster, for example. But there aren’t easy delineations Bolts and Mach Es are dedicated but still retain ICE DNA - See Sandy Munro’s review of the mach E cooling system. These are good cars IMHO but they are not refined to maximize the efficiency of EVs that even when fully charged carry 2-3 gallons of gas worth of energy. To that end I think the best marker of the engineering is the MPGe because it gives the best outcome data, reflecting the engineering that went into the vehicle. Of course that’s assuming the MPGe numbers are accurate. We know WLTP and NEDC by test cycles way overestimate range and possibly MPGe… While MPGe is usually based on EPA i see reviewers comparing apples with oranges regularly…

[@kevinpolito1529]

A long-standing problem with the legacy automakers has been the "not-invented-here" syndrome. A small but telling example is that when European and Asian cars came to America, they had swing-away windshield wiper arms. This made washing the windshield, clearing ice off the windshield, and preventing wipers from freezing to the windshield easy. For years, the Detroit automakers refused to follow suit. The fact that legacy automakers dragged their feet and waited so long to begin developing EV technology and EV-specific manufacturing technology is the latest example.

[@brianbarcroft9167]

Can i put i word in for the Renault Mégane E-Tech, using all their experience gained with the Zoe they have stopped all Mégane ice or hybrid production. The E-Tech is effectively a brand new 100% new electric vehicle from the ground up using the same module as the nissan aryia. It looks great outside, the UI is fantastic using google/android, the interior is very upmarket and it is a pleasure to drive. I ummed and arrhed for an age between a Tesla and the Renault. Finally chose the latter basically, i must confess, because it looked better, although it can do most of the digital things that a Tesla does. Best decision that I ever made.

[@transportevolved]

As we mentioned, of an EV is built from the ground up by a legacy firm, it’s usually phenomenal!

[@brianbarcroft9167]

@@transportevolved indeed, especially when it is a company like Renault whose EV experience goes back 13 years. The data that they have must be phenomenal.

[@StephenMatrese]

22:00 Don't expect Chevy Bolt parts quickly anymore

[@Peter-vn8ue]

The great thing about a ground up Ev is they utilise available space better. While the external dimensions look smaller, the interior space is bigger and better utilised, usually with a completely flat floor. I personally can not see the point of buying a converted ice vehicle to Ev. It's just the lazy way legacy auto bring out an EV version without investing in R&D to make an incredible Ev from the ground up, where pure Ev manufacturers put in the dollars to make a more decent and efficient vehicle, but at the end of the day its the consumers choice what they buy.

[@user-xp3oi7rj9f]

The auto industry is in the marketing business,they try to tell the public what they want

[@peteglass3496]

"don't tell him Pike!" 😂😂 I wonder how many will get that one... even Nikki is a bit young. 😁😁

[@transportevolved]

I’m older than you might think- Nikki ;)

[@peteglass3496]

@@transportevolvedI know, the reruns went on forever and you will have missed the 2016 film remake!

[@transportevolved]

Nikki here. I grew up in the early 80s, so they were very much still fresh in everyone's minds!

[@Roddy451]

Bravo...algorithm

[@laurensargent9471]

Service on my Bolt took days

[@i6power30]

Most EVs suffer from lack of parts and qualified technicians.

[@rp9674]

Day, sounds typical of many, including gassers

[@jedimaster3192]

Over the air updates, who owns the car? I want updates by email so i can transfer the software to a usb and plug that in my car,it works on my triumph motorbike

[@GeoffArnold1]

It's definitely ok to choose a car based on how it aligns with your moral priorities.... but morality encompasses many things. For example, I prefer to buy from a company that welcomes trade unions and treats its employees with respect. Old fashioned, perhaps, but worth thinking about.

[@KaiPonte]

Great video! I very much followed Tesla's rise to prominence. I should have bought the stock back in 2018-2020. (One of my friends did, and is now a retired millionaire.) However, I continually thought they would not become as big as they did. Even living in California, as I started seeing Tesla Model S and Model X cars roaming the streets, I thought they were oddballs. Also, the Toyota Rav4 EV and VW Golf EV were mediocre at best. But by 2021, I was ready for an EV after I ditched my TDI Jetta and had rented a Kia EV while my Lexus was having body work done. I now have 28,000 miles on my Ford EV and absolutely love it. I think the Rivians and Canoos of the world will have a far more difficult time surviving than Tesla did. I can't throw a rock anymore without hitting a Model 3 or Model Y. I drove a Cyber Truck and - while it is too big for me - it is a perfect truck. The Chevy and Ford EV trucks also look incredible.

[@brunoheggli2888]

Why didnt you buy Tesla stocks at the end of 2020,so you could lose 60% and way more in the future!

[@KaiPonte]

@@brunoheggli2888 Ha! One of my buddies did buy Tesla, then sold and is now a retired millionaire in his 40's. I got to ride in his CyberTruck last week.

[@brunoheggli2888]

​@@KaiPonteYou also can buy a lottery ticket and winning a million!So what?

[@brunoheggli2888]

​@@KaiPonteWhy didnt you buy Tesla stocks at $412 some years ago so you can sell them for $60 in 2030!At least you made the seller happy!

[@brunoheggli2888]

​@@KaiPonteZoom stock went up to nearly $600 and is now 60$!Yes some went rich if they sold at the top but most went broke because they believed the mania around Zoom!

[@JREwing78]

Ummm... they all suck? In theory, mainstream brands (and their parts supply) will be around for the long haul. But said automakers frequently undermine the promise of service and parts availability with their own actions. Tesla and Rivian are probably going to be around long enough that I won't risk having to junk an electric vehicle from either company, which I can't say for VinFast, Fisker, or other smaller brands. If crashing a Tesla wasn't such an expensive proposition, and so many of their behaviors towards their customers weren't so heinous, I would probably have already purchased one.

[@Caribeno787]

It is very confusing when British people say early noughties it similar to early 90’s and after doing research I just realized it’s 2000-2009. Does anyone know why?

[@levenkay4468]

Most life-experience context only requires one decade's worth of resolution. Decades are named by their tens digit: Fifties, Sixties, Seventies, Eighties, and so on. The 10s through 19s are awkward enough, but "Teens" works OK. So what would YOU call the 00..01..02..03... years? The word "naught", representing "zero", is not a bad choice.

[@rp9674]

Zero is naught in British, as in naughts & crosses = tic tac toe

[@transportevolved]

Noughts ;). - Nikki.

[@jamesphillips2285]

I always assumed it was a revival of slang from the 1920's.

[@tonespeaks]

The idea of Legacy Auto v EV Only, is kind of a mistake, because brands are not the most important factor. When purchasing a vehicle, it is best to find that vehicle that match the individual's needs. While Brands does factor into the equation, it is the specific vehicle that is the key issue. A brand my make Vehicle A well, while Vehicle B is not good, so the real focus should be on the vehicle and how well it matches your needs. More importantly before purchasing a vehicle, proper research should be done, trusting brands to supply the best information, has been a mistake in the past.

[@rp9674]

15 fiat 500e, very reliable

[@darwinskeeper421]

11:24 Necessity is the mother of invention? I thought it was Frank Zappa.

[@Jcewazhere]

I expected better of Subaru, but they just had to partner with Toyota again and make the Sucktera.

[@ouch1011]

Subaru is largely owned by Toyota

[@KeeperOfTheSevenKeys.]

Eventually "legacy" auto will be EV only brands too or die. The important thing is you are buying an EV. Buying a "legacy" EV, helps that process move faster than buying EV only brand, but you should buy the car you like the most that works for you.

[@brianbarcroft9167]

Volvo is already EV only!

[@KeeperOfTheSevenKeys.]

@@brianbarcroft9167 They aren't yet, but they are making very good progress towards it, they've stopped selling non-hybrid gas cars at least.

[@jamespaul2587]

​@brianbarcroft9167 not true, Volvo produces hybrids also

[@brianbarcroft9167]

@@jamespaul2587 they do now but I offer this quote: "Following the launch of the Volvo C40 Recharge, the automaker is announcing its pledge to go fully electric by 2030. At the turn of the new decade, the Swedish automaker will only sell EVs and phase out any car in its global portfolio with an internal combustion engine, *including hybrids*"

[@jamespaul2587]

@@brianbarcroft9167 yes, but that's 6 years away and they're not EV only now as you noted. It's great to see them keep this timeline as other brands are planning to delay transition to EV only production.

[@josegonzalez-zn8zc]

Early “nortys” ? Is that how they say 90s in the UK

[@transportevolved]

Noughties - 00 - 09

[@josegonzalez-zn8zc]

Good to know thanks

[@stevegrimes5105]

2024 the year we have to choose EV companies that don't know how to make cars vs EV's from car companies that don't want to sell them.

[@brunoheggli2888]

Volvo EX 30

[@LaserFur]

I want a repairable EV that does not require subscriptions or spyware. I bought a first gen leaf for my daily commute. and I have a ICE for the ~3000 miles per year in trips. I have the repair manuals for the leaf and can get parts. That would not be true for a 12 year old Tesla. And I can't justify spending the money for a 300 mile range EV for trips.

[@OffgridApartment]

There’s certainly no shilling for or against anyone. *buys truck from brand that’s sells itself as “brand tough” then bashes another brand for building an objectively tougher truck and pointing it out. But that’s for another video. For this video, who is better at making EVs? I’m not sure but I would have been interested in some digging into the profitability per unit across legacy and EV-only. I would say it’s pretty objective to say someone is better at making EVs if they can make money where others can’t.

[@transportevolved]

Say what you mean? Nobody is bashing anything here.

[@anothercasualobserver8764]

Right now, my wife and I are partial to what GM is doing in the EV space. We've owned a 2014 Chevy Volt and leased 2 Chevy Bolts. One was the 2017 1LT and the 2nd was a 2022 2LT. All 3 are great vehicles. Waiting to see what comes out in 2025 when current lease runs out. A 320 mile range Equinox with an updated NACS charging port would be great! Btw, Elon Musk is a problem!

[@anderspedersen6750]

I have been a GM fan for years (currently drive a Volt, Corvette before that...). The lack of phone mirroring is a non starter for me in new GM EVs.

[@rp9674]

Bolt is nice & comfy, not super exciting tho

[@BogeyTheBear]

Not a single mention nor illustration of BMW in the discussion here. Have the Bavarians become the new 500-pound gorilla in the room when it comes to the Dedicated vs Legacy debate? I notice that on other channels who push an agenda of how legacy automakers just don't "get it", they gleefully report on lagging sales or negative reviews yet BMW is more often than not left out of the conversation entirely (where as Mercedes and Audi are the invariably cited subjects of their hit pieces).

[@AnonymousFreakYT]

BMW was mentioned multiple times. Including the Mini-E and E-Active models.

[@BogeyTheBear]

@@AnonymousFreakYTWould you be kind enough to point out those mentions?

[@Paul-cj1wb]

The legacy type of thinking is exactly how companies go bankrupt. It's what happened with GM when they crushed all their EV1's, and 5 years later they went bankrupt and had to be bailed out by the federal government. There are several legacy automakers that are not going to make it past the 2030's. Mazda is still my choice to go first. Although Nissan is giving it a run for it's money lately. And no, companies like Mitsubishi don't count as they are already half the way there. The same with Chrysler, as it's already half the way there being owned by Stellantis.

[@karlInSanDiego]

Does KZbin require you to say "Let's get into it", "Let's get on with it", or is that just a phenomenon of people repeating a successful transition phrasing? 😂

[@karlInSanDiego]

Legacy dealership/service is a critical differentiator. You can easily test drive cars, and more easily seevice them locally. Another major factor is how likely are those EV only startups to go bankrupt. Rivian is still precariously on the edge of not being around in two years. Same with Lucid, and now that its spun off, Polestar. Even Tesla has severely overestimated its dominance. Tesla potentially has serious overcapacity and the new competition Elon thought wouldn't be compelling, are quickly marginalizing Tesla Model 3 as a mediocre offering

[@dtvconsult]

Legacy automakers are trying to catch up in software. They will get there, but don’t assume it’s easy or fast.

[@ouch1011]

Legacy automakers are also trying to build cars for everyone, not just the tech bros. Many people who aren’t tech savvy are completely flummoxed by my Model 3, including how to open the doors from the inside or outside.

[@MCP647]

Why has the world gone crazy with conspiracy theory quacks?!

[@levenkay4468]

I think you've reversed cause and effect.

[@gmv0553]

Because you can't fix stupid!

[@carlishiggins]

with all the anxiety inluded with ev ownership its Not worth paying more than £3k for an ev, used or brand New, ev owners ripped off

[@ouch1011]

I have zero anxiety with my EV. Not sure what you’re talking about, but I’m guessing you’ve probably never driven one either.

[@migmigjohnson9351]

They need to treat the EV industry as a completely separate one, which means they need to get in line and lose money the first decade, like Tesla did.

[@TheWineroute]

Easy I'll never give a dime to an auto company that builds gas burners.

[@kevinpolito1529]

Tesla haters are legion. But it must be said that of all EV makers, Tesla is the only one to share its patents, free of charge, with other EV makers. Tesla will likely be the first to perfect self-driving technology. And it has already stated that it will share, at least as far as licensing the technology, to other EV makers.

[@transportevolved]

It doesn’t though. It puts so many legal riders that nobody wants to dare to try. -Nikki

[@EliotHochberg]

The idea that this channel is in the pocket of OEM Legacy automakers is laughable. I am the kind of advocate who thinks that any electric vehicle put on the road is better than no electric vehicle put on the road. And I have made plenty of comments that have both been ignored and responded to with regards to how I feel about the channel And their leaning towards undercutting actions by OEMs that aren’t purist electric vehicle-only future choices. Those of you who think that this channel is pro OEM are suffering from confirmation bias, and aren’t paying attention to all the videos and all the commentary that the channel injects into their news stories. Although fair is fair, I have noted that TEN has less commentary and opinion in its new stories than it used to have. It hasn’t disappeared, and snideNess and sneering still appears in what we would expect would otherwise be factual stories, but it’s not as constant as it used to be.

[@howardmarkert8150]

In regards to the morality of choosing legacy vs. EV only brands, I as a socialist add in another factor and that is the way the companies treat their employess and employee unions. Thus for my personal choices Tesla and Rivian are equally as bad a choice as any legacy auto maker. Whereas the European legacy brands which are building their EVs using union employees in an enviroment where the must adhere to EU environmental and workplace regulations have an advantage over American and Chinese brands regardless of their legacy or EV only status.

[@sojourner4726]

Well, Japan is having a militarism and nostalgia for imperialism problem. Germany is supporting a genocide. And Italy has a fascist swing. So it’s probably not the best analogy to use …

[@user-jr2fk9zh4j]

Wake me when I can afford to purchase a new EV that isn't a bicycle.

[@ouch1011]

That’s an auto industry problem in general, not an EV problem. All new cars are overpriced, unless you’re ok with buying a go-kart that will be dead before the warranty is up.

[@i6power30]

The problem with too much computer dependence is it makes cars unreliable when there is software bug or finicky eletronics age out. All critical functions are only accessible in a touch screen computer makes the car too fragile, should the infotainment system malfunctions, or detoriates with age. Things like gearshift, HVAC controls, speedometor should not be in center touchscreen, should be seperate controls and guages so if one breaks does not affect others. Also analog and physical controls typically last longer than computer hardware.

[@stevewausa]

Tesla’s one computer to run the whole car, while it makes the LEAN people happy, introduces a single point of failure into a multi-ton moving projectile.

[@migmigjohnson9351]

Yea I know you're trying to be as impartial as possible, but there's no valid excuse supporting how an startup has an edge over companies that have been around for ages. Them being too fat to figure this out leading to getting caught with their pants down is their problem. Accountability is a real phenomenon. I'll offer them my compassion, just not my $$.

[@i6power30]

I don't think legacy autos that fail to innovate deserve even compassion.

[@karlInSanDiego]

If you stress about the Life Cycle Assessment of EVs and how incompatible full sized EVs and especially inefficient pickups and 3 row SUVs are, Rivian begins to look like the Hummer brand, representing a company who only builds oversized, unsustainable trucks. No I don't expect EV apologists to accept that frame of view. EV enthusiasts will be the last ones to accept that there are good and bad solutions in terms of addressing the Climate Crisis and being realistic about viability under ZERO CO2e.

[@alanrickett2537]

While watching this remember TE hates Musk and so Tesla and love Ford and GM

[@silvanfricker1437]

tl:dr - I wish all publications had a fraction of the journalistic integrity and adhered to the same objective reporting this team. As someone who holds Tesla stock and believes in its mission, I'd say that they manage to present the news about Tesla in an objective manner. That Elon Musk is not exactly popular with them is hardly a surprise nor unwarranted. They're journalists. They're supposed to be objective, or as objective as reasonably achievable. Something I find to be lacking quite often when consuming other publications. I've watched most of their videos over the past few years, certainly most TEN. They've been fair in their reporting. Both the good and the bad. So no, even if they did actually hate Elon, that is not something you need to keep in mind.

[@alanrickett2537]

I agree they try I disagree that they succeed If you missed all the back handed digs you should go look again ,my view is its not split OEMs , start ups its split those that are enthusiastic and those that do the minimum you have KIA, all the startups, polestar, volvo , Audi, BMW and the Chinese in the first camp , ford in the middle and the Japanese, GM, VW Stalantis in the other. @@silvanfricker1437

[@rp9674]

Yay, I hate Musk too!

[@alanrickett2537]

@@rp9674 nothing wrong with that you are entitled to your opinion

[@ouch1011]

As someone who owns a Tesla, nothing stated in this video was inaccurate. So, while your post might be true (can’t speak for the TE team) it has zero impact on the quality or accuracy of the video.

[@carlishiggins]

in 2 yeara time your frog tesla ev will be worth less than a Granpa's mobility scooter and made Elon musk richer you poorer