Lei Youtuber Responds, "Lei Is Not Easy, He Is Very Hard"

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[@TheMainManSWE]

Alltimes video is here as well as his channel full with content: kzbin.info/www/bejne/moecdKdpjrSfedE

[@artsq1550]

I'm not yet finished with the video, but as a Lei player, I would like to disagree on some points regaring difficulty. I agree about knowledge of matchup from opponent - Lei can just go through half of his Movelist and win only by that. BUT! (there's alway a "but", you know :) ) 1. You need to learn that movelist yourself. That might not sound like tough thing, but trust me, you have to learn a whole graph of stance transfers and strings to use them properly. Maybe you're underastimating this because you're "legacy" player - and you played Lei before, I suppose. 2. In the intermediate level there's a Huge spike of difficulty - because lots of players on some stage learning that staying in block and backdashing as much as possible (an then launching and wiff-punishing) is more proffitable than staying near the opponent. And suddenly it becomes obvious that most of "turtle-openers" of Lei are waaaay riskier than ones of other characters. Add his slow-recovery animations that are giving opponent quite a time to react on animation finish - and you'll realize that Lei really has to be inventive to handle turtles. 3. Lost of his unsafe moves are either telegraphed, quite quickly learned even during match, in some cases, or just shouting about being unsafe on block. 4.He's pressure is quite often can be cut just by single jab/df1 or fast low kick. Which means that in a lot of cases you don't need to really know the matchup - just poke here and there and do not allow Lei to force his own game tempo. Still, I agree that Lei is quite strong and can be pain in the butt even on pro-level. Overall, that's a fair reward to take complex, difficult-to-learn and rare used character (almost same as playing unexpected Low-tiers in finals). You want to play Kazuya and have strong tools? Ok, no problem - but be ready that every first contestant will know how to dodge, punish and counter your every move? You're willing to spend days and weeks in Lab before even trying to play online with your character, just to learn all his movelist and basic setups? You get a reward of being mysterious. Quite fair. Aren't you agree?

[@artsq1550]

And regarding good Lei players... Well, yeah, that's exactly why he's underused. You need to learn and refresh every fight in your memory HUUUUUGE amount of information to play him well. But why do you need this when you has All-Stars-All-Good Jin, free 50/50/50/50/50 throws of King or something even worse like Season 1 Dragunov? Hell, even Kazuya is much simpler - you need to have great execution, yes. But that comes with a practice. And after practice you just have to use one of several well-designed attack/defence patterns and folow through with them (like Debuts in chess). While playing Lei is more like playing poker - but with chess, dices and mandatory flute-piano playing :) Yet again, I'm not trying to say that Lei isn't strong. But It's a character for life to learn and has some significant downsides as well. If you're looking into bigger picture - please, do not turn down downsides (no pun intended) in your reviews as well. Like, for me playing Lei on the first 60-70% of time was both fun and painfull hell at the same time.

[@artsq1550]

18:09 "You can't have your cake and eat it at the same time". Except if you're Jin :) Then you can eat cake, steak, drink glass of Martini and go to bedroom with your opponent's wife :)

[@artsq1550]

22:45 - yessss, exactly what I mentioned previously - at some point lots of people start to turtling against unknown characters. And poor range does not help to deal with it eaither.

[@artsq1550]

Ohhhh... and the Ending. Comparing Lei and Noctis :) 2 moves for Noctis VS 100+ moves to learn with Lei.....

[@FiddlinWithYourCerebellum]

Notice how the Lei player is much more respectable than the Nina player.

[@cartoonworld1000]

Because they're classy

[@MrNinjafreak]

Some Nina mains are scary af in person. No joke.

[@OJxT]

Thank you

[@cartoonworld1000]

@@MrNinjafreak I've heard them get pissed and scream on their mics online. Obviously not every single Nina player is like this, but a big percentage of them are.

[@MrNinjafreak]

@@cartoonworld1000 It's very true my friend ^^

[@RisingJericho]

This guy can't possibly be as insane as that last guy who was defending Nina

[@sushii00]

See this guy can make an decent argument but that guy who defended nina is a stoner

[@CDodger24]

you look like a stoner with that grammar too.

[@idontwant2beasoldiermama241]

Y'all stoners

[@aFutureSelf]

Stones

[@robertonegron776]

I'm smarter then you and I smoke weed.

[@cdt.domalantajuanjosefenel3544]

@@robertonegron776 using "then" in that sentence confirms that you're not really that smart

[@ruinmaniac1411]

"It'd be weird for a character to have good offense, punishment and mixup potential, you can't have your cake and eat it" *Glances at Jin and Devil Jin*

[@TeamSESH_Bones]

devil jin has massive stepping issues with SSL duck making 95% of his moves useless

[@DeadpoolX9]

Wheres jins mixups? D4 is the best And db4 is really good but it takes forever to startup and doesn't crush Same for hellsweep

[@DreamerFromTheDepths]

Jin's a bit confusing on the person using him though, in my opinon Devil Jin is a better choice because even low knowledge of the character gets you places, with Jin you need to know a lot more it seems. But yes overall, in terms of...Well everything behind the hands of a good player, these two just have it good in every area.

[@BoONeo]

@@TeamSESH_Bones Every Mishima has that, thats why they have wavedash to realign where the opponent moves to, doesnt change the fact DJ is busted

[@MuzzYADam]

@@TeamSESH_Bones *Laughs in Laser Scraper and wave dash*

[@kingxdatruth0998]

Next is going to be “MAINMAN IS WRONG ABOUT GIGAS! HE’S VERY HIGH TIER AND NEEDS TO BE NERFED AGAIN”

[@timotius]

But... do you see a single person use gigas and won the tournament or even in the best 8?

[@herokiryu2652]

you only need 10 minutes to lab gigas, and you will know everything about how to deal Gigas, and imagine Gigas players has to use stuff that every character knows how to punish... and its very easy at that.

[@kingxdatruth0998]

I was being sarcastic lol

[@kingxdatruth0998]

Ik Gigas is a very low tier character. He needs a very good overall buff. As TMM previously stated. Calm down guys. I meant for that comment to be a joke lol.

[@herokiryu2652]

@@kingxdatruth0998 naw i know its a joke, im just adding some info in case anybody comes by.. cheers dude

[@ak1l207]

Next Episode - Bryan main thinks snake edge is an unblockable !

[@cryhfox-gamingandanimenews9992]

taunt snake edge

[@DreamerFromTheDepths]

Probably the same kind of people who play Law for the most part.

[@aibrahim6071]

Oakaoakaoka

[@ibal8405]

Taunt snake 3 bar unblockable gdi

[@BustaWolf97]

its not?? lol jokes of course its not

[@seiryu265]

Apperently, the new trend is “my character it's hard, not easy or viceversa”... I know everyone has their opinions, but, for me, this argument is starting become really stupid.

[@hollowwraith4513]

On god I'm sick of being put down because I play asuka but respected when I pull out jin or kaz

[@seiryu265]

@@hollowwraith4513 well, I use Chloe and Eliza. Everytime someone say something to me, I ignore them or I respond to them. And I don't switch character, why should I do it?

[@furious_malic7808]

Hollowwraith451 don’t care about others opinions man. If you win a match or your opponent doesn’t know how to deal with something the match is over before it even started, it’s their job to adapt or get rekt

[@Makneuro07]

i play steve, people say he's hard but he's an easy character to me

[@hollowwraith4513]

@@furious_malic7808 thanks man😁

[@denirobernard9745]

Ok. All of these people are fool of themselves. I play Hwoarang and he is super cheap in beginner and intermediate. The hard part of his is that in high level ranks people realize that Hwoarang can't guard in flamingo at all. So when you see people bouncing around on one leg like they have pro status, understand that us Hwoarang players are just acting like d-bags. Hwoarang is super unsafe, and much like Kazuya, needs space to do anything. This is apart of why there is the lore of Hwo and Steve. Steve is pressure in your face, Hwo is high pressure with spacing. And more/most importantly, Hwoarang's stances DO NOT crush anything. Lei literally lays flat on the fucking floor, or dances around the entire map just by going into stance.

[@1AdA-Greats]

De Bernard thank you my howranang brother

[@DarkAscension21]

At beginner level as a hwo I agree but I feel he becomes difficult at intermediate but that just from personal experience.

[@Hanswer122]

Lei can crush certain mids, hwo cant crush at all

[@xGenyox]

dont forget the launching power crush move

[@remyslender]

@@xGenyox AND the power crush state during stance

[@HumbleHurricane]

Eh, I understand both sides, and am a long time user of Lei myself. It's both hard to counter 200 moves, but it takes crazy amounts of dedication to learn, place and properly use Leis 200 moves. Which is WHY no one is playing him lol hes hard to learn, and us definitely a character you MUST put tins of time into to use effectively. In the other hand, if the time is put in, THEN yes his moveset becomes a big problem. Very complicated character to use AND defend against. So to me, hes right down the middle and is average when you take into account offense, defense, beginning, intermediate, high level and pro levels all together. Those 200 moves also have to be learned to be used against the entire cast offensively. Lei is only easy once learned. Hes not a character you're just going to pick up and destroy everyone with. Katarina, Noctis, yeah they can do it easily in early stages, but as stated in multiple videos, in higher levels, those characters effectiveness goes down. Its difficult to play with fundamentals either Lei and you damn near have to rely and hope your opponent either doesn't know or just guesses wrong with his mixups. If Lei was that simple, we'd see more of him for sure. He takes more work than most are willing to put in. I think B tier is correct indeed.

[@sungodd-]

Shondarian Nelson this man has arguably the best offense in the game, all he has is mix. that’s why his other shit is ass. you got 100 launching mids paired w the same amount of lows. thank god his shit is unsafe

[@Nutt_lemmings]

@@sungodd- I see you've mastered the art of spitting shit through your nose.

[@stevenburton4966]

I think main man's right, just on the fact that it's inherently harder to defend than to attack, so all the time that you put into your character main as a lei player, means you're putting an uneven brunt of lei's complexity onto your opponent and with his low usage it's harder for people to deal with since they don't know the match up, BUT it's still very hard to come up with good mix up that's useful, it takes a lot of knowledge and creativity, you can't just spam your way with lei, you have to know precise transition points, have good timing, his magic 4's require serious execution, a lot of his staple combos require serious execution, and you combine that with poor frames, even noobs can whiff punish and punish things on block instinctively knowing nothing from a technical standpoint about frame data, so the creativity required from lei plus his shit frames etc. balance things out a little more than mainman gives credit for I think. but over all i think he's right about it being harder for the opponent in the end but not as right as he thinks he is about the character being easy over all.

[@Nutt_lemmings]

@@stevenburton4966 I mean with Lei, because he doesn't have any plus frames on block unlike certain characters you just have to constantly disrespect him with dickjabs and you'll be mostly safe.

[@stevenburton4966]

@@Nutt_lemmings lol, i spam dickjabs using lei against others such as hwoarang.

[@4grammaton]

2:16 I think you should listen to what he said more closely, TMM. He didn't say: " *if you don't know* how to counter most of his gimmicks you will lose" He said: "if you don't know how to counter razor rush, but instead *you know* how to counter most of his gimmicks, you will lose"

[@rossanderson4156]

Thanks for correcting here, any mistakes main man makes will only strengthen his oppositions arguments.

[@Tongue.Tornado]

Oh noooo, he said gimmicks and not Razor Rush, Mainman must be wrong!

[@rossanderson4156]

@@Tongue.Tornado L for misunderstanding

[@4grammaton]

@@Tongue.Tornado Must he? Your call. I don't think mainman is wrong. I think he misheard or misinterpreted the video he was critiquing.

[@arthurmallmann5768]

@@Tongue.Tornado but his mais argument is that it's better to know how to counter one move instead of focusing on the various strings that Lei has. That diminishes the lab-character argument (even though he contradicts himself later while talking about Lei's strengths)

[@manaswin123]

Everyone tends to mix the opinion of character difficulties between Noob and Pro player. TMM try to separate it and say that these gimmick character is easy "at the beginner to intermediate" but hard "at pro". But everyone who debate with him try to mix these thing up and say "I dont care about Beginner to intermediate, I will talk about Pro only, and you said that he is easy(at beginner to intermediate) so you are wrong" You guys dont even debate on the same term, WTF man. It's started to get boring.

[@naruto1coolestfan]

Facts

[@Chridell_j]

exactlyyyy

[@THENAMEISQUICKMAN]

yeah but he says that his own main is really super hard too so i can't take these "critique" videos of people defending their mains seriously lol

[@ThraxxL0rd]

Shinku Quickman he says his main is “harder at beginner but easy at pro” to be specific

[@Chridell_j]

i agree to most of tmm's opinion but i don't really get what he means when he said kazuya is hard on beginner and intermediate.. in previous videos he always says that kazuya in the beginner to intermediate can get away with lots of hellsweeps because player at that level rarely ducks or try to predict it or even stepping to the left.. doesn't that makes kazuya easy on beginner and intermediate, and gets harder later on high and pro? or is he talking about execution? bcs kazuya really rely on the basics of tekken such as movements, punish and the oki.. and that needs time to learn, but then i don't think he's talking about the same thing he talks about with lei.. me very much confusion

[@Janne-k-]

easy or hard i dont really care. i dont main lei, but i play him quite often. it's really a shame that he has such a low playrate. because in my opinion he is easily on of the most interresting characters ever, and he has so much potential. im incredibly grateful that he was eventually added to the game, and im just completely in love with how he turned out for tekken 7. but i fear that he wont be in the next tekken game, and that would really be a shame.

[@snakefist9188]

Janne-K dude no...

[@boundbyblood2282]

Given how much people complained, even AFTER he was added into the game, Harada confirmed that he's never going to do shit like that again for characters that wind up not being in future Tekken games. It also doesn't help the fact that all the complainers stayed quiet as fuck when their mains returned, thus the low play rates. It's sad, really.

[@bando7593]

Janne-K ya know maybe If lei players did cool stuff I would be interested in playing him but the only leis I see online are the cheesy spammers which ruin his image. Maybe if we could have someone get him to the next level I would be convinced but for now he’s just gonna stay where he’s at

[@l0lhei541]

Im getting serious with Tekken 7 now, and Lei is my character of choice. I fucking love his playstyle. I love the wide range of moves. It IS, however, quite intimidating when I hear how people always tell me how "trash" he is or how he can never perform well in higher tier play. That and I keep hearing: A) He can't punish shit at all. Or if you can, its pretty pathetic. B) Unsafe moves? Like a ton of them? If not all? But I refuse to let it stop me. I don't care if he's not "perfect" or "top tier". To hell with it. Lei is awesome, and he feels so unique. I love his personality and I feel he's the character for me, who thrive on being unpredictable and a bit of a "wild card" when it comes to fighting games. I'm sure the journey to master him will be... Ruthless and absolutely rough, but what isn't? Can't wait for my new fightstick to arrive on friday.

[@ShacoPL]

@@l0lhei541 how did the journey turn out?

[@MattWarb2]

I can see that you care a lot about Tekken. You want everyone to get the most out of it and you're actually taking their skill level into consideration. I appreciate you. Thanks MAIINMANNNN

[@tqhr]

3th

[@BoONeo]

Actually hes doing the opposite, hes bringing attention to these "cheesy" chars and encouring players to badmouth other players who play certain chars, in high rank no one rly gives a shit what u play but in beginner/intermediate this is gonna become an issue

[@EternalSilverDragon]

@@BoONeo No, what you've said is incorrect. TMM has said on multiple occasions to play whichever character you enjoy playing. The people bringing attention to these "cheesy" characters are the butt hurt players who complain about the TMM's argument, without actually listening to his argument first. They just like all the attention they're getting.

[@thatgalaxyartist1854]

@@BoONeo I agree. Tekken is just a game some people take it too seriously with all this character bullshit. It's stupid. Just play the game to play. Like damn

[@-lotus8650]

Next Up "Lucky Chloe KZbinr Responds"

[@blockchainballer4542]

Oh god

[@Jabermania]

She's one of the hardest

[@ZXtales23]

I really like how Mainman's thumbnail seems like he is just a massive clickbait troll enjoying "the salt", but actually puts in the time and effort to be open minded and concise enough about his opinion and actually stir good debate/conversation about the game overall. So refreshing to watch this unlike the nina video, that was just a clusterfuck of arguments and flame, much like her strings lol.

[@basuka93]

Everyone wants to be recognized for his "super hard character choice"

[@jamebro1798]

Tekken-Basuka93 “I’d be pro if I wasn’t a Nina main”

[@abyzzwarrior3305]

meanwhile paul mains be like "hehe guy hits hard ooga booga"

[@chillskid]

They want the best of both worlds. They want to pick an easy character and have everyone applaud them for playing such a difficult character. TMM is just putting people in their place lol.

[@Neogears1312]

@@abyzzwarrior3305 yeah that’s not inaccurate.

[@KyeCreates]

​@@chillskid Doesn't mainman play a relatively easy character? electrics are easy, mixups are easy. he has solid moves and a power-crush that provides great mixups. he's nothing compared to the gameplan you need to create when it comes to unorthodox characters.

[@thepeepeefairy5218]

Tune in next week for my video about why Gigas is the best character in the game loll

[@budbud866]

Jackpot Fights trololol

[@damoebius]

i know nothing of tekken, but i really like how respectfull u engage in a discussion. props to u as a person!!!

[@Viewer13128]

when he makes videos by himself, or responds to those whose arguments are dead wrong, TMM ridicules people/characters. in this video, because alltimes was nice to TMM in his response, and even gave many arguments in support of TMM, TMM reciprocated his manners and professionalism and didn't ridicule this time. unfortunately, because alltimes was so nice to give points to TMM, TMM misinterpreted most of those points as "evidence" and most of this video was responding to incomplete points. but if alltimes was more direct, TMM might have trash talked, so this may be for the best.

[@g8le]

@@Viewer13128 Didn't "trash talk" (whatever that's supposed to mean) that Nina player, that Jin player, or that Akuma player, even though they all had a pretty hostile attitude from the beginning. What are you even talking about?

[@The_Buff_Guy]

Actually he has 13 stances: Snake Dragon Crane Panther Tiger Phoenix Drunken boxing Backturn Face up, feet towards Face up, feet away Face down, feet towards Face down, feet away And Crouching snake is a mini stance (db+1 to enter it) which you can get a decent mixup out of, so I think it counts. Lei is not a hard character. I play him when I want to play Tekken at 4am after a long days work when I want to chill and get easy wins with zero stress. Otherwise, I main mostly kazuya, Im passionate about heihachi and devil Jin, and mess around with Armor king and Jin. Lei is my “I don’t give a shit, let’s just have some fun” character. He’s in low violet ranks on ps4 right now.

[@DreamerFromTheDepths]

Due to what I've been seeing on PS4 lately I'm gonna wait until I have money, buy the Noctis DLC and that's it, I'm sick of trying to use skill in this game because nobody else does. I'm looking at you Alissa mains...

[@adonmain1535]

@@DreamerFromTheDepths yo im not trying to tell you to enter the world of scrub but *cough *cough* snake edge

[@chuckielos5124]

Family Of Catbugs I have been using Noctis since last June. 6000 plus wins in Quick Match. You will not regret it. When I run into other cheese characters with Noctis, he destroys. Tons of no rematch and disconnects. You might even love it.

[@CoolDima09]

backturn isnt really a stance

[@iqbaalmuhmd]

yikes, incoming new noctis main

[@famaplay]

2:03 ohh look! a wild DF+2~PEWGF appeared xDDDDDD

[@kavlospiro6977]

I nutted

[@bartucha3859]

I really wanted Lei and I play him. Thank you Harada

[@ryang6312]

Great analysis, you have discussed this many times before but some people just don't get it. I agree with your philosophy centered on the vast majority as opposed to the relative few who "master" the matchup.

[@MrOoh50]

Ok, now I'm waiting for a Katarina main complaints. At least, TMM have something more to upload. 😁

[@KiraGamer97]

Just here to say who cares about usage data of a character, someone as iconic and unique as Lei should never be removed from the game

[@mosley3485]

Why? So you can look at his thumbnail on the character select screen?

[@KILLzone_565]

Coming from my friend, who has played Lei for many years, says that it is near impossible to master this character. Every Lei plays him differently, which is what makes Lei even more scary. There are definitely more Lei’s that are starting to show themselves, and this character is extremely fun to watch.

[@sourcesauce]

goes with any character lol

[@mazuiface]

This guy was better than the Nina player and put his points forward in such a way that TheMainMan could elevate the entire discussion. TMM has the defining point and argument with his insistence on examining the entire arc of Tekken character skill and difficulty. This allows us to get a picture of the entire Tekken experience for each character. Excellent analysis from tmm.

[@Relexx1336x3]

I dont even play much Tekken but I just love watching your videos because you care so deeply about Tekken and your passion variety of videos and overall personality just keeps me watching

[@genmac2843]

My "x" character is super hard at the highest level.. this kind of reasoning is so stupid.

[@br4ndyaw4l]

how so?

[@TheBlackBossalini305]

It’s actually good reasoning. Just because Joe Smoe can’t block Bryan’s snake edge in green or yellow rank, doesn’t mean he’s easy character to use.

[@shad0wmech]

@@TheBlackBossalini305 you're right, it does make him easy to use at those ranks though, which is the point he is saying but people like yourself are ignoring.

[@shad0wmech]

@@TheBlackBossalini305 yeah I can see how every character can be easy in lower ranks. But some of them you have to actually know for that to be the case. As you mentioned obviously Lee, but for most Mishimas you need to have some decent degree of execution to make them "easy" down there. And I would say characters with strong keepout and defense are much easier down there than other characters. Like Bryan is what I climbed out of lower ranks with, 3+4 orbital were all I needed because people never stop pushing buttons and running in. So I can see where you're coming from.

[@TheBlackBossalini305]

shadowmech You can literally get out of green ranks with the hellsweep and ff3 mix up alone, they don’t block low or side step there lol.

[@DDStudia]

I do not think that the Lei's main weapon is RAZOR RUSH, there is a lot of movies and you can use it in variety time and combination.

[@figmenter]

Thanks for the clear explanation behind that opinion. It's a combination of having a lot of tools(good or bad) and the under usage that makes him 'easy' to play. Btw, nice touch mentioning Ranca and Tetsuo. Those guys are legends and can even give Knee's t5dr Bryan a run for his money.

[@Goteiii]

Well, I always found Lei harder than any other character. Not because of execution but because in order to make him effective you need to remember and mix a million things. I always found Mishima's easier cause execution is easier for me than remembering a million strings, stances and combinations. Which is why I believe no one plays Lei. It's such a chore to become competent to utilise his confusing offence.

[@TheComboSmithy]

What ranks would you consider beginner, intermediate, high and pro?

[@bakojn1274]

i love these argumenative videos. you get the view of both perspectives and it is mostly adult and friendly in the end.

[@AFSninja]

You misunderstood/misheard what he said at 2:00. He said that if you don't know how to counter razorrush, but you DO know how to counter most of his gimmicks you will lose. So he basically said that hitting the lab on razorrush is the thing that actually matters.

[@nicostarrs4674]

Next Vid: AliSa Is NoT gaRbagE

[@DreamerFromTheDepths]

@AAKS They're why I stopped playing the game, so sick of seeing Alisa's for maybe 20 matches in the row, I see a Kazuya after that I beat him in the first two matches, he quits and then another 50 matches against Alisa, so boring... Sometimes Nina's and Asuka's show up too, anyone else is a God send except Bob.

[@cartoonworld1000]

@@DreamerFromTheDepths I'm pretty sure there are some good Alissa players out there, I guess it's just been your luck that you ran into the scrubby ones lol. I'm like the opposite of you, I've never run into an Alissa yet online.

[@franciscvmpbell]

Family Of Catbugs it’s the opposite for me, I fight 50 Kazuyas, 10 kings and the odd Alisa. Fucking tired of fighting Kazuyas

[@yesimBata]

What I don't actually get is why you would put Lei in bottom tier of difficulty, and Ling slightly above him. Even if we assume for the moment that all stance based characters are easy, Ling is almost universally agreed to be the easiest one of the lot. Not to mention AoP alone is enough to destroy people at lower rankings.

[@Viewer13128]

well, TMM was biased as F against lei, and in this video, he simply avoided addressing this, since alltimes made a respectful/professional video, so TMM can't spew his bias in this response video. give TMM some time and (hopefully not) he will trash talk lei for no reason again.

[@Jonathan-cz4ky]

@@Viewer13128 it's for the luls calm down bud and reeeelax

[@shad0wmech]

@@Viewer13128 bbbbbbbbbbut muh character is hard take back those mean words tmm

[@Viewer13128]

@@shad0wmech being mean is his choice, which i am fine with, because it can be a youtube persona. i'm only commenting on his faulty logic and bias, leading to misinformation. It's not just about 1 character. a lot of the time, TMM will say something that is merely theory (or his personal philosophy), but use it as fact (very smoothly), and then use that non-fact as the core basis for any point he goes on to make. he then constructs his argument logically, which anyone unfamiliar with research methods would see as highly valid. then rather than saying that it is his opinion/theory/philosophy, he says his final conclusion is therefore the truth/reality. *basically, the simple definition is indoctrination...* the irony is that he might actually not realize this since he might not be educated in the concept of "validity", which is even more painful to watch as he gets emotionally invested on top of everything. TMM does this with players, characters, tier lists, to play styles. ofc, sometimes, he only does it because he needs new content. so again, i'm fine if his youtube personality is mean/nice/etc. if it gets him views. I'm only critiquing his information. i'm fine if he says it's his opinion *and that others' opinions may be right,* but TMM doesn't do that. he either: (1) uses his theory, but masks it as fact, and then states his opinion as fact, or (2) admits it's his opinion, and then denies/trashes any other opinion/argument (which technically is no different than saying his opinion is fact), or (3) sarcastically says that others can be right while letting you know he doesn't mean it (which again is not different than saying that his opinion is the truth). in fact, whenever he admits something as his opinion and then goes on to reject other opinions, his statement is by default logically incompatible, yet he continues to build his point in a logical way... possibly without realizing what he is doing. and he usually honestly believes that opposing views are stupid, and actually thinks he is educating them, and then starts cracking jokes/insults. so again, i'm not critiquing his youtube personality, i'm critiquing his poor methodology and information, which he spreads *very persuasively.*

[@shad0wmech]

@@Viewer13128 You say that its his opinion, and he says its his opinion many many many many many times he says this. And you're complaining that he says his opinion and...believes it? and says it like he believes it? isn't that the idea? When someone has an opinion that they want to spread shouldn't they believe it over other peoples. And he does agree with the lei player that lei is hard to play, at late high and top level. thats his opinion, you can disagree with him but he doesn't ever claim something as fact unless it actually is. He repeatedly says that he "Thinks" not he "knows" his opinion is right. You just seem to be someone who dislikes the creator and therefore dislikes his opinion and dislikes the way he presents it. If it offends you how he argues so much, then don't watch the videos, or just watch the video disagree and move on. (And also you have to remember he argues similar to how a lawyer would, because he is in law school, Thats why you think he is putting of what he is saying as fact instead of what he thinks)

[@ThatArtistGryph]

Are there any characters you consider easy at the pro level? Or who do you think the top 3 easiest characters to use at the pro level are? Thanks again for the video.

[@myfriendscallmeblue3035]

Adding these to that resume/portfolio ehh? Keep grinding bro and good luck in the future 👍 hope you get the gig

[@Pokechao]

This was actually a pretty good watch, the Lei main actually was pretty respectable and informative, and so were you MainMan, which made this a really interesting discussion video. Always glad to see people can be chill AF when debating about Tekken

[@MrCageCat]

I've been playing Tekken casually for most of my life, starting from Tekken 1 in the arcades in 1994. I basically only began taking it seriously since Tag Tournament 2. Unfortunately I took a bit of a break, and only recently started trying to get into Tekken 7 seriously. Unfortunately, I've found myself struggling against people who have been playing seriously for YEARS, with the result being frustration, especially mastering characters like this (in my case, King), because, Tekken is NOT an easy game to get into, especially when you haven't been playing it hardcore for at least a decade or two. Add to the fact you ALSO have to learn how your character(s) matches up with OTHER characters, lol, well, yeah....

[@Mediavidero]

Totally true. I used to play it during a lot of years in Tekken 3, Tag tournament, T4, etc .. in arcade machines, so I bought as separated DLC in Tekken 7 for steam PC and, of course, is harder to use than ever. I mean, combos needs specific timing between buttons and movements don't flush as easy as it was in the past. PD: Playing with Lei is like practizing Choy Li Fut; it requires to memorize a very, larger lot of movements correctly, so you only need to fail in one of them while chaining it, and then, you probably lose.

[@major_s9]

Couldn't even focus on the narration because I was so happy hearing Lei's old voice, didnt know I missed it that much

[@bartoszstartek515]

Something is wrong here.... if Lei is so f****** easy to use why there is so little people to play the character?? If TMM's phylosophy was true there should be a bunch of Lei's cheeseing online... In my opinion TMM's trolling on Lei and some other characters (also TMM's "Difficulty Tierlist") is based only about him experiencing difficulties in defending against those characters... For example I find Steve or Lee hard to defend against - it is my subjective opinion... and so is yours MR TMM about Lei ;P

[@genzo454]

Because there are characters that also are really easy to play (ex: Katarina, Noctis, etc) that more people find more compelling, either for their personality, playstyle, specific moves, or just familiarity with the character (ex: Fatal Fury/KOF players playing Geese when they move over to Tekken). Also, at 3:40, MainMan talks about Lei's play rate in previous games being low, so it is safe to say that Lei just doesn't appeal to many Tekken players, at least gameplay wise. And since his cheese isn't strong enough to make him a Jin/DJ, people looking for easy wins look to other characters.

[@cliponbowties4799]

Lei is a character that should be in every Tekken game. He's iconic, he was my main, and the only reason I'm not playing him is because he's locked behind a paywall

[@jaredsamane5660]

To characters that have a strong mixup with bad punishment, if they want to they can just force a mixup instead of a punishing the opponent properly, which is still very good than getting nothing

[@misevibre]

11:04 You don't know what it is supposed to mean?? lol He was abundantly clear. The argument that he wanted to counter is that Lei is difficult because he has many moves, does not show up often and is a lab character (people have to get ready for 200 moves blah blah blah..). In his example, he used Lei's razor rush a lot to ILLUSTRATE the notion that you don't need to know how to exactly counter ALL OF HIS MOVES.....just the most important ones.

[@Regdren]

He probably should have shown footage of someone who knew how to counter razor rush though. The fact that this was a fairly good opponent who still couldn't handle it kinda supports the idea that Lei isn't that hard to play.

[@misevibre]

@@Regdren The problem with your comment is that TMM never claimed that Lei is easy to use because of his fucking razor rush and how hard it is to counter. His claim is predicated around the notion that Lei has so much weird shit, that you have to lab him a lot (even mentioned the silly 200 number a lot)......which was the notion the guy was addressing in the first place..

[@user-ho9nq1wt3e]

As Anna player I know a good way to deal with Lei. Just press him to death and don't allow to use his moves, overwhelm him with Anna's tornado of pressure, use CJ to launch him every time when this cheesy cop tries to do low hit. Suddenly Lei players don't want to play against character with 200 moves, strings, stances, chain-throws, parries, auto counter hits, mixups and super-fast rage art.

[@PotatoAsh]

Yeah, I find Anna to be a very good matchup against Lei. I enjoy playing her against him.

[@counterhit148]

There are different types of difficulty, not only depending on level of play, but also difficulty of WINNING AS A CHARACTER, and difficulty of PULLING OFF WHAT YOU WANT TO DO, you should consider that when you're comparing difficulties of different characters. Like it's easy to win as Jin, but there are some things to drop like electrics or another stuff, or it's hard to win as a Gigas, but he has no stuff to drop or misinput

[@JIX9ISLER1986]

@4:45 ''And the identity of the triggerman(Lei)....is a mystery(His difficulty).'' -TheMainBaneManSWE

[@leonelgarcia2420]

Man who's up next? Katarina? 😂

[@franciscoscaramanga9396]

Kat only has three things that are hard: 1.) Wall stomp. 2.) Converting off just CH 4. 3.) Using EWTF (ff24) as a block punisher at -13-14. None of it is really that hard. Kat's a little harder to play than Shaheen/Kazumi at top level, but she's overall pretty easy.

[@cyriszx]

I Would like to hear your opinion on Hwoarang being easy. I can agree that he is not on the level like Yoshi, but still is extremely complex and requires alot of execution.

[@SageSaiyanGaming]

Can you please make a video on how turning pro works also show your tt2 combot in my eyes the most overpowerd tekken character ever cheers bro hope to play you soon #edit infact i challenge you in the king of iron fist tournament.. i only have tekken for xbox 360

[@BlackTigera]

This is just my opinion as someone who only got into tekken with 7 and picked up lei as soon as he was released as he seemed interesting and fun.firstly i agree that lei has an advantage due to his extensive move list and one of the things i like is his options (i'm a hwoarang player as well for the same reason) but something i feel hasn't been really discussed is how hard he is to learn in the first place just to use there are a lot of stance transitions to know when to use for what reason and being aware where you are in his move list and which stance you're in and where you want to be and the best path to get there. and i find the moment i lose concentration or my mind goes blank for a second he falls apart really quickly. while i'm not going to argue that he's an incredibly difficult character i feel the points i have made offset the difficulty in defending against him somewhat and would say in my opinion he would be average difficulty. sorry for the long comment just wanted to give my opinion as best as i could

[@EddieThaPlayer]

Are we just going to ignore the perfect electric that happened on 1:58? That was sick

[@zhaoyun255]

Peppy2spice eliminated CBM off of Combo Breaker 2019.

[@Viewer13128]

you could tell cbm would win if it wasn't a FT2 though. and cbm used fundamentals more than character knowledge and cbm was still more dominant.

[@ianm2925]

I play Dragunov and people always seem to have him above average difficulty. But the problem is there are only 2 semi-difficult things wr2/f3 steps, and you can play drag with a range 1 wr2 or just one f3 in a combo and since they are the only things that are tough you can temporarily play without them and practice them alot practice mode or in matches so they become easy quick or quicker maybe to learn since its just a couple things. Is there anything I'm missing, why is his difficulty above average?

[@do8152]

Who is the character in the game that is the most expressive? As in allows you to let you play in any style you wish?

[@hollowwraith4513]

Xiaoyu hwoarang feng king

[@vidalzazueta4678]

@@hollowwraith4513 Can't forget Jin

[@ymb9shinzou743]

I agree with this to a certain extent but I don't think there is any talk about how difficult it is to learn this huge bag of tricks and how it all works. You are talking about the huge responsibility it puts on the opponent to know your character, but the Lei player himself has to go through this same struggle when learning how to play Lei. if we are taking everything into account and being as detailed as possible surely we have to acknowledge that he must have a different difficulty curve than Noctis, because if you let two absolute beginners fight with those two characters the Noctis is going to win. Just remembering a small portion of his possibilities is hard for the Lei player. for that reason I would say Lei has more of a bell curve in terms of difficulty, because despite being hard to fight I can't imagine he's the sort of character you'd recommend an absolute beginner start out with. In Dan ranks there's plenty of characters easier to get a win with. So I think he starts out as difficult, then gets easier as the knowledge gap widens between you and the opponent along with offense being easier than defense. Then from pro up he starts to get difficult when the knowledge gap shrinks back down.

[@bjornhedin4378]

Yeah, nothing wrong with the theory that you want to rank differently for different tiers.. But lei isn't easy to play at all in beginner.. You talk about how much responsibility it puts on your opponent because of his huge varied move list.. Except when you are beginner, you aren't labbing out your opponents, you are learning to play your own, so that responsibility is on the player. Actually I still won't lab out my opponents because I don't want my video games to be a chore, but almost no one is doing this at beginner. The easy chars at beginner are the characters that have powerful spam moves that are super easy to pull off. At beginner though, you have hellsweep, it doesn't get you far, but I think that alone puts Lei in medium instead of hard at the beginning. Intermediate I think Lei is also hard to play. I'm not sure if people will "lab out" lei or not, but it doesn't so much matter when you are playing many matches in a row with the same opponent. You need to try to constantly be changing your gameplay. With lei, something only works if it catches the opponent off guard and you need to be unpredictable all the time. You need to be trying to get into your opponents head and changing constantly so they never catch on to what you are doing, if you start to repeat yourself you are toast, which is very tough to pull off in my opinion, and what makes him so fun to play... I find playing with xiaoyu means I need to think a lot less. Then again, maybe I just suck at him. I'm pretty sure one of the big reasons no one plays him is because he's so damn hard to learn

[@sy7h]

But you gotta remember that it’s harder to learn how to counter a move than it is to use it. Sure, you can learn all 200 moves if you want which would be really difficult but do you, as a lei player, really need to do that? No one plays this guy, he has 200 moves, like 13 stances, no one knows how to fight him, all of which makes it considerably easier to play him. Realistically, would you learn the matchup of a character no one plays? One with 13 stances, learning how to punish each of them just to never use that knowledge because no one wants to to touch him?

[@judende4690]

Yo man I'm new to tekken and I'm interested in it and I wish to know which character to use . thanks

[@Chridell_j]

in my opinion, just use the character you like.. the one that you think looks cool or the one you enjoy using.. if you take the game too seriously with all the complicated things in the game, you might get tired of the game very fast..

[@BillsSwavo]

Yea bro just go to practice mode with some characters you attract to, go through the move list til you feel comfortable with someone and doing their moves, go to treasure battle, Reek havoc and climb the ranks.

[@jantran5349]

it is easily to understand, the razor attack is already hard to counter against in addition of Lei other 200 moves, it is what he intend to say. But in high level in tekkie is more about poke fencing mix up, then all out mashing mixup buttons.

[@zachsundberg4561]

I agree with the idea of viewing competative balance from the perspective of where most of the player base actually is. Personally I think Lei is very hard to win with at beginner level because everyone is just running their offense. The 50/50 game is less effective against people less concerned with defense. I think that's where a lot of the push back on this take is coming from. It's a struggle to get Lei past Green ranks. He gets stronger at intermediate imo. I can't speak to high or pro.

[@jvostudio]

You forgot to tackle how Kazumi is harder than Lei which is also the point why alltimes made that argument

[@zephune9506]

kazumi is not harder than lei no way

[@BorkBigFrighten2]

I'm obviously not MainMan, but I think the idea is that Lei can sort of cheese his way through the lower ranks, while Kazumi doesn't have the insanely confusing pressure to deal with. She's a lot more centered around fundamentals.

[@crazy911wman]

Kazumi is easy

[@kyleclements1178]

Does anyone else find it funny that he put gigas at s tier for hard match? Not a lei man but that has to feel bad if thats consistent among lei players

[@genusspecific]

So are people suppose to feel a certain way for playing "easy" or "hard" characters or something? I'm just trying to understand the end goal of all this.

[@herokiryu2652]

He mentions his student always tell him why they are getting destroyed by Noctis even when Noctis never won a tournament. That should give you an idea.

[@TheMavenDojo]

To be honest. Lei is a lot less frustrating than Nina. I feel like I can just hold block vs Lei and I win.

[@5gatesmaster]

they still need to do work on lei some of his combo not working on p1 which u can apply on p2 and few other bugs

[@HaloMediaAgency]

I really respect how you confront criticism head-on. It is quite profound to me and I think your game knowledge supersedes Tekken.

[@madthrasher88]

Next video gunna be "macwro es not easy et es hard"

[@LorenorSword]

1 Year, 500 complaints and 250 Videos later and there will still be someone claiming that "insert character of your choice" is harder than its actually the case. Not that im complaining, i enjoy these kinds of respond videos. Also #NINAISEASY

[@SM-nc1nb]

Can we at least agree that these characters are harder to play than Kazuya?

[@inder3944]

What character is "these" which season did it come out?

[@Thelegend_2121]

I just pressure with jin and wait for my counter hit to land. It fixes all my problems 🙂

[@arthurmallmann5768]

so if i dont let them leis get to one of their 13 stances, they cant low launch me? eazy

[@radoslav6861]

Can’t wait when it’s gonna go full circle, and he’s going to do a kazuya is cheap vid haha

[@Alpdude]

He's kinda said it already haha. His 50/50 vortex in low ranks is insane, especially cuz people don't approach Tekken as a 3D game. Literally what he said.

[@exiszt8423]

@@Alpdude Kaz 50/50 vortex is cheap at any level

[@Alpdude]

@@exiszt8423 it's cheesy yes, but high level, nah. Everyone knows it is there.

[@exiszt8423]

@@Alpdude Yeah it is there but the fact that you can just force your opponent to guess with crazy good oki after hellsweep is just godly on any level a guess is a guess doesnt matter the level

[@Alpdude]

@@exiszt8423 It isn't so polarized. You can also take a grounded hit. You dont really see vortexes on high level matches.

[@appleaccount7608]

ok, I play this character a lot and let me tell you first hand that it is very tough, you can't just rely on a couple of moves for everything; Unlike ora or Dragunov wr2 or jin's f4. His 50/50 are strong but u need to into his stances to truly maximize it. Not to mention his stances has weakness where you cant block mids or lows. His rave sweep is launch punishable by everyone, his punishment is better only than Anna's, he truly lacks plus on block moves, his razor rush is only a potent weapon when you are well versed with his stances and know what you wanna do next. Not to mention even his RDs are also locked behind his stances and there are only a couple of good moves that help you transition into them quickly. So, my point is, just causes you main a Kazuya and your execution is 'hard', doesn't mean everything else is easy. No amount or charts or arcs help you when you have 100 plus moves you need to link together in tandem and worry about all the interruptions the opponent might try.

[@k-gedbird2663]

This I can respect. Good video dude, way better than the other trolly one you did about Lei. This is the kind of content this community needs.

[@Eth3realwarrior]

This is the Lei analysis that should have been, fair and balanced. Thank you.

[@alexandermccalla5098]

To be honest, I couldn't use Lei until T7 and it was because of his move list. I just didn't know what to do, until I could see the input for the sample combos and grew from that. Would've used him before and helped those usage stats. Yoshi is another one of the characters but now he's my main. Wow. Up until TTT2, I was probably stuck in green ranks. Or never made it past warrior. And I'd been playing since T3. Super casually.

[@mshklh2099]

9:58 is that double flips ender unscaled damage Guaranteed ?!

[@tacitozetticci9308]

Yes.

[@razorscootervs.ankles8152]

11:18 I think he was referring to your video of you playing lei, you only did like 5 moves the whole time or he was arguing that people just need to learn his key moves

[@RyoMRH]

Just imagine TMM at a law firm (I think he is at law school or something) in the future for a job interview and getting the job for how good he articulates his points for the layman for his case and side of the story.

[@Agent_K94]

Not going to lie, I'm loving the discussions the Tekken community are having because of TMM's tier lists. So much more information is just getting distributed now. Hope it continues!

[@Crimson15049]

I was honestly worried when this showed up. But I'm glad to see the way this was approached. This whole topic of characters difficulty is something I'm not a fan of. After one of TMM's videos about Lei, I've actually been told that I play a "pay to win" character, since he is DLC.. It's too bad that's the kind of behaviour that comes out of this.

[@ibblue0710]

@Michael Lei isn’t a “pay to win” character. That would be Noctis since he is the easiest character in the game, but when you hit high/pro level it gets difficult.

[@requiem418]

Main "The Myth Buster" Man

[@kamoonrahha]

i agree with you here completely that all levels of play should be considered when judging a character's difficulty. Personally i am a yoshi player he is quite unique with his frames and tools and has different approaches to different skill levels. At lover level play you'll be throwing around unsafe moves and going into stances willy nilly, loving on that fcdf4 that is minus hop-kick while at higher level play you are almost afraid to throw that move out as well as use some of your stances. Flea is hard to approach besides it being back-turned (in that case it is a god stance and will literally kill everything) and by the wall. Kin is your run of the mill stance that yoshi uses in combos mix ups and pressure primarily. just trying to give a few examples but long story short, his game-plan and move choice changes a ton as you progress with your tekken career. (getting to a higher level made me appreciate iws4, b1 and iws1 with yoshi) {ending note: i think that yoshi becomes slightly easier in higher level play because people are familiar with your bag of tricks and you can construct more mix-ups and bait reactions or particular oki options from your opponent when his tool are correctly applied.}

[@tiagonairat_.9756]

It's simple, you are both right. Lei has terrible frames so it's kind of hard to learn him (You have to use a lot of moves to compensate) But at the same time, it's true that you never see him and you are easily stressed by all his weird mix-ups. ..... You can't solve this problem because you are two différent player. One learn hundered of moves and timing for his character and train to use them in unique situation. The other learn the key moves of the others character and play defensively, trying to punish the others misstakes.

[@PhirstPlays]

I actually find this very interesting . As someone who just picked up tekken 7, having not played the tekken series since like tekken 5, I am curious what you think the difficulty arc for my character is. I like to play with Asuka. i have made it to Tekkengod Prime in treasure battles and, am fixing to attempt to rank up online. Is that a good idea? I am also curious how you mentioned that you cant have good offensive tools and a punishment game unless you are Kazumi. What is Kazumi's difficulty arc? Thanx for the info and entertainment. See you soon.XD

[@vidalzazueta4678]

Asuka is one of the easiest characters as she is so good and easy to use. Of course the higher you rank ip the harder she is to use. Playing ranked is what makes you a better player but you want to make sure you have some sort of understanding on fundamentals. Everyone at lower ranks don't play true Tekken to say. Only when you rank up more does Tekken become much more enjoyable in my opinion. Kazumi is also considered really easy.

[@striked85]

As a lei player using him is not as much fun as you think since using lei u need to know how to take risk since if your doing those strings perfectly but if you miss one or opponent reads it they can launch you since your open

[@molham4311]

8:25 The missing 0.09% of the playerbase is yet to be found

[@Z-ir]

I picked up Lei a little while ago, and let me tell you, it’s a A LOT to remember. The guy TMM is critiquing, I actually watch and have learned a lot from him. Lei’s range is so awful, and you have to remember a ton of things while you play him. He’s got so many options and mix ups, and tricky execution, it’ll take awhile to master him

[@AvgurKRD]

Now everything about characters' difficulty is clear, at least for me:) By the way, MainMan, when will you make another anti-character guides? I think, it can become the most interesting part of your channel, because there is not enough such content in youtube.

[@GCCake]

Lei mains are all salty because the mighty Noctis can Oraaa! Them into the next galaxy.

[@bujinfujin8603]

I'm a Lei main...... Fuck noctis

[@bigdsweet]

ff3 can whiff punish ora. I find it weird that my list for match ups with Lei is different.

[@bujinfujin8603]

@@bigdsweet Leis only ranged options are FF3 and TIG4 are the only Rangey options Lei has, Noctis rules the neutral that's why the matchup is bias towards noctis. Its not as bad as what Alltimeszzz put but its pretty harsh

[@bigdsweet]

@@bujinfujin8603 TIG4 is not that far. I would say d/f 3 is a good ranged move but it sucks even when you do hit. Lei is stumpy. I would say Lei has some of the worst neutral in the game. Whenever I go to play Kaz or even Asuka I feel like I can stay the face of my opponent. I can only do that with Lei in a stance.

[@Viewer13128]

@@bujinfujin8603 tiger 4 is not a ranged option, and you can enjoy being punished/launched because when u are in tiger, they are waiting for that slow low launcher to whiff and 100% prepared to punish/launch you. tiger 4 has deceptive range, but it's just deceptive, not long range compared to other characters. compared to leis own moves, then yea because lei's range sucks.

[@xXSH1N0B1Xx]

We all know Raging Storm is the hardest thing to do midair after combo.. next to taunt jet upper.. or I wish we all knew

[@TheMetalInsideUsAll]

I'm learning lei currently and concider myself a novice. My moves get counted so easily because you can just duck the second attack in the chain against lei. Lei is very good at wiff punishment and im terrible at it... unfortunately

[@ladrellhart2063]

His character difficulty list is really basted on how hard or how easy it is to win with a MASTERED character. I think he really saying if you mastered Lai it will be easy to win with him.

[@alangrg4491]

The reason why Kazuya is hard early is because of his pewgf learning process at the beginning but after you perfect it,kazuya becomes easier and easier But in case of lei,he is preety easy at first but after you try learning his stands,he becomes harder and harder(Kazuya is preety useless without the knowledge of ewgf and Lei is useable even if you don't learn all of his 200+ moves)

[@KrayKenshin]

I mean I agree with you here TMM. Just look at tournament results Pepperbeef2Spicy beat Lil Majin in competitive and also at Combo Breaker you actually saw 2 okay Lei players do really well vs Good players at that tournament.

[@ps82xela]

2:12 that is not what he said, he said if you know how to counter the gimmics but not razor rush you will lose

[@rk_gunpla]

I think more than "pro" level viability, people just tend to call characters difficult when there's a long movelist or tricky execution. Forget Lei and Nina, I've even heard plenty of people claim that Mishimas, Steve, Hwoarang, etc are "hard" characters. It's also why Gigas generally isn't in the discussion for hardest character, and the poster boy/girl for easy characters are ones like Claudio, Shaheen, Kazumi, and Jack. While I don't fully agree with TMM, I think my thought is more or less in line with his general philosophy, Character difficulty should take into consideration minimum effectiveness requirements for getting any wins. Characters like Nina and Lei may have high ceilings but it's not difficult to just jump on and get results with them. By contrast, a character like Lee requires a bit more work since he's mostly a "honest" character that requires some execution to get any meaningful damage.

[@asugarush8970]

Not to mention, on top of everything, if you want to actually lab the damn character you have to buy him first which like myself must people haven't done and aren't willing to pay for a character they won't play