Let's Talk About Bethesda's Creation Engine

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Bethesda's Creation Engine 2 is a topic of heavy discussion since Starfield didn't look as good as we expect from a modern game. Let's get to the bottom of it.

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@jubbalubby
@jubbalubby Жыл бұрын
I find it really weird that Bethesda decided to forsake one of their strongest aspect of design, which is a huge handcrafted and continuous world. I feel like if Starfield is scaled down to one star systems but you can roam anywhere in one instance, it would make space exploration a lot more fun than 1000 loading screen.
@sabastianleisek396
@sabastianleisek396 Жыл бұрын
True stuff. Love Bethesda titles, but the studio has not aged as well as their games do. I've had fun on Starfield, but I also got a free copy. I wouldn't recommend paying full price.
@henseltbrumbleburg3752
@henseltbrumbleburg3752 Жыл бұрын
my thoughts exactly. Starfield to me feels like compromised ambition. I know every project is like that, but I don't feel they really pulled it off. The scope was too big.
@ghost-user559
@ghost-user559 Жыл бұрын
Daggerfall was entirely procedurally generated. And then they hand tailored those dungeons and towns. Really Starfield is a return to form for Bethesda, for good or for bad. But it’s the right idea to give people a thousand worlds to explore. I think the loading screens are really what hurt the experience for most people.
@edwardaldrich7213
@edwardaldrich7213 Жыл бұрын
@@henseltbrumbleburg3752 The scope wasn't too big - think about EVE Online and other old games that can do this. No - this is again about corporate greed and not paying for new, top talent to make a new engine that can actually make Bethesda renewed and not the big joke of the gaming world. Blizzard and all the old guys are just pathetic at this point.
@BlueBD
@BlueBD Жыл бұрын
Exactly what I thought when they announced 1000 planets
@Zaelkrie
@Zaelkrie Жыл бұрын
It's not just the engine, the way Bethesda approaches game design on a fundamental level is what holds them back. Very rarely does Bethesda ever actually learn from their mistakes or try actually innovate game mechanics, in fact with every game they release they seem to dumb down and streamline things even further it's like they're actively unlearning lessons and going backward.
@Zaelkrie
@Zaelkrie Жыл бұрын
I can't believe people are still pushing BetterHelp it's been outed as a scam for years and the people are not as qualified as they claim, I know people need ad money but shit like BetterHelp is actively harmful to people.
@Ivardarkreaper
@Ivardarkreaper Жыл бұрын
I disagree. Bethesda often tries to learn from mistakes. Sometimes with bad results. Starfield, for example, cut a bunch of things that people criticized in Fallout 4. Some of it came out fine, like the fact that the protagonist is silent again and this improved the quality of the dialogue... As well as cleaning the fucking dialogue wheel. However, other cuts were not so successful. Like for example how they lowered the quality of systems like outposting compared to Fallout 4 because people complained about them. Honestly, my opinion is that what holds Bethesda back is mainly their thinking.
@pesii1452
@pesii1452 Жыл бұрын
What is holding back can you clarify?
@henseltbrumbleburg3752
@henseltbrumbleburg3752 Жыл бұрын
​@@Ivardarkreaper I personally think it's Todd's "Say yes to the player" mentality. On the surface this sounds good, but I think it's not always applicable, because sometimes saying no to the player can create something interesting. So many Bethesda games have everyone think extremely high of the player, like the content is begging you to play it, it just feels plastic.
@adityan3208
@adityan3208 Жыл бұрын
​@@henseltbrumbleburg3752 Yes this. It just results in a lack of focus
@evanpage2540
@evanpage2540 Жыл бұрын
One of the things that I realised makes Starfield NPCs so weird is not just the animations and bugged-out eyes but the fact that every single person turns to look at you as soon as you walk past them. Walking around New Atlantis like I've got something on my face everybody just staring at me it's weird.
@MinosML
@MinosML Жыл бұрын
Good thing there is a mod that fixed that on Nexus, I know it shouldn't be necessary but hey, it's out there.
@mygamechannel2300
@mygamechannel2300 10 ай бұрын
@@MinosML Damn, and those small mod can't be delivered by this multi billions company? Did no one in the company test it out? Makes you wonder what their priorities are.
@elvingearmasterirma7241
@elvingearmasterirma7241 10 ай бұрын
So someone at Bethesda has a personal hatred for people with social anxiety. Thats what Im getting from that
@MinosML
@MinosML 9 ай бұрын
@@mygamechannel2300 I believe their priorities are definitely in the wrong places and their company culture is so old that they can't logically keep up with the rest of the industry. Like not one second they stopped to think that maybe focusing all their efforts in getting 341849198 piles of HD junk items in the game shouldn't take priority to, idk, a f*cking rover to explore the barren planets? They are so stuck up in their ways that I'm not even angry anymore, just sad.
@Mac1Eleven
@Mac1Eleven 9 ай бұрын
@@elvingearmasterirma7241you will have less and you will be happy -Bethesda probably
@NicholasBrakespear
@NicholasBrakespear Жыл бұрын
Speaking as a former Skyrim modder and current indie developer, the Creation Engine isn't just holding Bethesda back, it's holding the modding scene back too. Because while much more talented modders than myself have done some incredible things (and arguably take the Bethesda games further than Bethesda ever do)... if you knew what the engine is like, and how Bethesda build their games, you'd understand that it's a matter of crowbars and duct tape. It's not just that the underlying engine is creaking under its own weight and age; it's that the design philosophies, tools and implementations that are laid atop that foundation? Are really cluttered and headache-inducing. This is why even non-modders have that feeling, when playing any new Bethesda mainline title, of instant familiarity; why it looks and feels the same as the older titles, even with a new layer of paint. Why the same old bugs keep manifesting. Doesn't matter how many additions there are, how many new features or graphical layers; eventually, the new stuff actually accentuates the old design flaws, making it more obvious that it's running on ancient technology. The problem is that the original engine design was flawed, and the studio's design philosophies are flawed. You could iterate, fork and build upon that engine for a hundred years, and you'd still see the same problems - junk in, junk out. You can't wrap a broken core to make it less broken. Also, no, that engine is not how or why Bethesda was able to make "that sheer quantity of content". It's why they were LIMITED to that quantity of content. Because the content isn't actually that vast, when you cut away the copy and pasted stuff (think about how long the core story content is in Skyrim, and the fact that none of the side quests actually interact with each other - they're all isolated storylines that are fairly short; doing a bunch of shorter storylines is a lot easier than one big one). If the engine and tools had been better, they could have done greater quantity in addition to greater quality.
@gilibran
@gilibran Жыл бұрын
It's scrum, not the engine, every team needs to put out something so everything is unattached because nobody knows what everybody is doing or cares as long as what they build does not break something. If it's actually good or makes sense? Does not matter, next sprint. The shipbuilder i can guarentee you, each manufacturer is build by a different team. They were given the shipbuilder and then told design some unique modules for this manufacturer with this background/theme. The difference in possiblities between the different manufacturer modules is obvious, Take the Nova tech front cowl, it has 8 possible positions, the Deimos one just 2, same for the Stroud one, but at least they have a front and back cowl. There are a ton of other parts where it makes no sense they have just 1 or 2 positions. It was 4 different teams building modules for 1 manufacturer and you can see the difference between the teams and how creative or lazy they were. It's not just time restriction they could not make all modules have 8 positions, 1 team just cared more then the other. But it does not matter, because in scrum noone cares as long as there is a result at the end of the sprint, the system has not collapsed and the proper excuses are in palce why it's not exactly what the productowner wanted, but hey it works. you got 99% of what you wanted. If not we will fix it in the next sprint and just add to the bill.
@OMGLittleB
@OMGLittleB Жыл бұрын
The day Bethesda switched will indefinitely be the day of their downfall, obviously Bethesda just fixing these issues is an impossible task lol.
@Vaniity_Velvet
@Vaniity_Velvet Жыл бұрын
I think about that "Infamous" interview Todd and Emal did probably a decade ago about Skyrim and said their design focus was minimizing and stream-lining. Not really adding more or objectively improving. For the longest time I always questioned their reasoning. "You'd want the opposite" I'd think to myself. But, I since realized their design focus wasn't so much to appeal to the widest possible audience. Dark Soul's and Elden Ring are not casual RPGs yet both are extremely successful with Elden Ring considered by many to be one of the Best RPG's ever made. I think the reason Todd and Co. have this design philosophies is strictly because of the Engine. For every graphical improvement they give their games, it's almost as if they have to strip away a bunch of features. Radiant AI, I feel quite strongly, being the area they constantly strip the most from. With each passing Bethesda game since Oblivion you can visually see the game worlds themselves getting progressively more lifeless and dull. I know there's a big mod in development for Skyrim that's suppose to fix all the core issues of the game (Poor reactivity, nothing really being connected, a bunch of throw away quests, ext.) But I am curious just how much of that project is going to be toned down not because the modders like the skill to pull it off, but because they're running into hard-coded issues. I mean hell, Bethesda Games Mod Limit is so weird to me because compared to most other games that are also heavily moddable there either is no real limit or the limit is so high you might as well not even have one. In some ways it even seems like Gamebryo was the better engine.
@gilibran
@gilibran Жыл бұрын
@@Vaniity_Velvet They fixed the limitation with the introduction of ESL plugins. Some mods, especially the script heavy ones still need to be in ESP format which has to do with load priority, overwrite or script execution, not sure what the criteria is. But this is not an issue since you dont want to many script heavy mods, no matter what game it is. No engine handles dozens of added scripts running at the same time. You can have 255 ESP's/ESM's and hundreds of ESL's, my own modded Skyrim se runs with over 900 plugins. I still merge alot of plugins, even ESL's just to keep the loadorder clear. 1 plugin for all added outfits, 1 for weapons, 1 for items etc. Which mod are you referring to? There is cutting room floor which restores alot of cut content, but that mod is pretty old and obsolete, i dont know if it's recently been updated! And lets not talk about the Unofficial patch which is supposed to be a bugfix patch but grew into a monster that adds and changes a ton of stuff that have nothing to do with fixing bugs but just 1 man forcing his interpretation of how it should be on us.
@carlosleyva-calistenia6400
@carlosleyva-calistenia6400 11 ай бұрын
@@gilibran Actshually... ESP and ESL formats have nothing to do with scripts, but "records". Both plugin types can (theoretically) reference to millions of scripts and there should be no problems. It's the records what makes them different. An esp is a database file that contains game info, like armors, npcs, locations... and each one of those is called a record. Each record has assigned a number that tells the engine where in memory it will be loaded. Let's call this number a FormID. ESL files can only hold 2047 or so records and all of them must have their FormIDs within certain range, otherwise they may end up overriding some value that should be referencing to another record in another plugin. That's when CTDs related to ESLs start to appear; the game expects to find something in memory but finds something entirely different and then it crashes because it doesn't know what to do. ESPs are databases and scripts are portions of executable code. Both things are entirely different. The problem with scripts is not their quantity, but their quality. It's a problem when you have MANY scripts constantly running in the background doing a lot of useless calculations or heavy ones. Papyrus is a language that can be taken by non-programmers and it shows. Many modders (and even Bethesda personnel) have no programming background and their scripts are flat out shit. I won't go deep into it because I would need to write an even bigger wall of text, but the gist is: scripts aren't evil; they are only bad when bad programmers create them.
@XerrolAvengerII
@XerrolAvengerII Жыл бұрын
The problem with loading screens is immersion. If players traveling between planets would trigger a sequence where a ship turns towards the destination, enters the gravity blossom, travels through the gravity stream during the loading period, then have the stream blossom open into the destination system without fading to black, that would be huge. Similarly, when landing if there was a longer landing sequence (similar to the taking off to leave sequence) I think that would also help. Basically whenever players are forced to wait to load something to travel, they should be showing stuff happening in the mean time.
@river559
@river559 Жыл бұрын
I was thinking the same thing. Pretty much like what destiny does when flying to different areas
@xx_amongus_xx6987
@xx_amongus_xx6987 Жыл бұрын
If we implemented what you are asking for, people would still complain because they don't like the landing and taking off sequences since they are "glorified loading screens".
@_holy__ghost
@_holy__ghost Жыл бұрын
​@@xx_amongus_xx6987way LESS people would be left complaining. you will never solve a subjective issue for everyone, but you are expected to at least solve it for the majority of ppl
@concibar4267
@concibar4267 Жыл бұрын
I really don't like star citizen but I have to give that to them: this loading screen-free experience is extremely cool. The knowledge that you can get into your ship and at any part of your journey you can just Yolo out the door is extremely immersive. If only it would have anything to do once you get out the door it would be amazing
@Sandnessen
@Sandnessen Жыл бұрын
Yes, exactly. This shouldn't be difficult at all for a studio as large as Bethesda 😵
@Ashendal
@Ashendal Жыл бұрын
The major problem isn't that the engine is "old." It's that they have refused to fix engine issues that have been present in every single game made in it for years at this point. Things like bugs that caused issues in quests from Oblivion can be found in every single game since then. If they fixed the core issues of the engine instead of constantly slapping a new coat of paint on it and calling it a day more people would be fine with it, but they won't so we get the exact same bugs, glitches, and game breaking issues, that have finally pissed enough people off to finally drop them.
@rhodan74
@rhodan74 Жыл бұрын
Exactly. There is a collection of day 1 mods that basically fix bugs that have been there for decades. Not to speak of their UX/UI design that is the worst in the business.
@larzkruber822
@larzkruber822 Жыл бұрын
It just works
@stevenkent5351
@stevenkent5351 Жыл бұрын
That's what they mean by "old". they haven't modernized the engine or updated core systems in the engine. That's why the physics engine is trash, the animation system is trash, etc... You cant just build new code on old code concepts.
@puddingsimon2626
@puddingsimon2626 Жыл бұрын
i dont think you can fix them anymore, Creation engine 2 is just a modified version of the old creation engine from skyrim, and the creation engine itself is just a modified version of an even older one, the base code is going back to i belive 1997 or something. Imagen you have a building that you tear down to build new, but instead of replacing the old Wood and stone foundation you just pour concrete ontop of it, then you tear it down again and just do it again just newer and fancier, meanwhile the ancient foundation is Rotting away under you and forcing you into two directions: 1: do all the same shit again, or 2: TEAR everything down, rip out the old foundation completely and build a decent one
@orangemynt806
@orangemynt806 Жыл бұрын
probably cuz it's a foundational problem that if they fix it, everything else will break. ya know how programming is. Fix one thing break ten other things. there was probably some compromise somewhere. And it's not like they're gonna make a game engine from scratch again.
@nomercy8989
@nomercy8989 Жыл бұрын
The engine does not excuse the poor quest design and writing. You can make a fun game with a bad engine. You can also make a boring game with a good one.
@tenesenka
@tenesenka Жыл бұрын
He was specifically addressing the "the engine is outdated, the problems with the game are the engine" comments. Also, Starfield's quest design are fine? Better than most games. The questlines and storylines are one of the things most people praise... excluding the main questline.
@gunplanismilan8276
@gunplanismilan8276 Жыл бұрын
​@@tenesenkaagreed
@WhiteInk47
@WhiteInk47 Жыл бұрын
Did we play the same game?
@user-pc5qj2ix2c
@user-pc5qj2ix2c Жыл бұрын
Quest design and writing are what are good about this game... what are you on about? In general outside of the many loading zones i don't have much issue with this game so far.
@ToweringPepsiMan
@ToweringPepsiMan Жыл бұрын
Fast travelling through 20 loading zones and speaking to 10 NPCs is the definition of bad quest design.@@user-pc5qj2ix2c
@CoolSs
@CoolSs Жыл бұрын
you know what really holding them back ? the fact people will buy their games regardless of quality.
@TheEmolano
@TheEmolano Жыл бұрын
And praise
@CoolSs
@CoolSs Жыл бұрын
@@TheEmolano i made this comment recently. on video comparing Bethesda and Obsidian. it's still relevant imo "Old Obsidian is an S grade AAA developer trapped in AA budget. always Bethesda is an D grade developer with AAA budget and outdated technology (the budget went to the marketing)"
@revben
@revben Жыл бұрын
​@@CoolSsCool
@KingInfernagon
@KingInfernagon Жыл бұрын
Uhhh... no cause' you're not making any sense. People didn't buy F76 which resulted in a flop at launch so that disproves your point. Plus, before Starfield, what they released in house were the Elder Scrolls series, F3, F4, and F76 where in which we can all agree only one was terrible. The other games were buggy (and still are) but they're not terrible especially compared to what the gaming scene is now today. So its not the consumer holding them back, its themselves and the engine lol
@jerod256
@jerod256 Жыл бұрын
that's one side of it. the other side is that the companies that own Bethesda know they don't need to take risk and just produce the same shit over and over and make tons of dough. We reward them for producing the same thing so they take no risks and profit.
@SpecterWSA
@SpecterWSA Жыл бұрын
Their writing and understanding of what makes a good story is holding them back.
@nyalan8385
@nyalan8385 11 ай бұрын
And their understanding of why people play their games. They seem to have the idea that people love the scale of their worlds and how big everything is, meanwhile the players actually liked the handcrafted feeling and replay ability
@nikolah.8472
@nikolah.8472 10 ай бұрын
The problem is the competition. Bethesda is used to it, making mass prior quality. It just works.....for a while, but not anymore. We have to be real Bethesda is railing this to death since oblivion. Lazy writing and doesnt give a shit about the main quest. I think they were right about that, i played skyrim hundreds of hours, but i forget the main quest almost every run. Nothing matters in this world, its just a playground, zero consequences and logic. But i often come back for 50 hours and then deinstall it out of boredom, because it has a lack of deep content. Be grandmaster of magic without using it? -No problemo Be Guild Master of Thieves, but dont kill anyone - kills everything in sight because you are also assassin. Sure I forgot even what the plot was and finished the stormcloaks quest and then realised:"Oh that wasnt the mainstory, it was Alduin. I completly forget him." The final was absolut lame and only melt my engine because of disco effects in the fight. Interactions with NPCs are absolut shit, marriage was a joke and i dont think i remembered any character other then lydia, parthunax or this vampire lady. The others are just people to fus ro da outta ma face. I have over 1000 hours in that game. The glitches you have in skyrim are also in starfield, because the unofficial patch from the community will fix it for sure. Im baffled they cant fix it themself. The engine is a huge backholder. CDPR had massiv changes for their games, because the engine allways limited them before they produced Witcher 3. The same is the problem for Bethesda, but they only fixing minor problems and cant step up to a better engine. Since Bioware, CDPR and also Larian Studios story driven RPGs have new competiton and Bethesda is stuck to the old formula. The same problem Ubisoft has with Assassins Creed, copy+paste and everyone is bored after a month. So Bethesda has to adapt or fall in the pit of studios that are forgotten tomorrow.
@ikiwe9730
@ikiwe9730 10 ай бұрын
Indeed. Emils got to go.
@unclerukmer
@unclerukmer 9 ай бұрын
@@nikolah.8472 Then let's let them die. Remember the games you like and realize that this studio isn't going to give you the next one, as disappointing as that is. Same with BioWare, same with Obsidian, same with Rare, and so on. The "fan" mindset lets studios get away with releasing crap game after crap game. Be a connoisseur instead.
@goosepapoose8666
@goosepapoose8666 9 ай бұрын
"The problem" is such an empty phrase when there's a huge list of problems. Problems: The engine Their coders Their writers Todd Howard Their direction Their greed Their support of failed projects like 76 List goes on. Feel free to add.
@agenerichuman
@agenerichuman Жыл бұрын
The engine is holding them back in the sense they keep updating it without fixing most the bugs in the previous version, meaning quite a few of the bugs in these games have been in these games since around the time they first started using it. There's really no excuse for bugs from Fallout 4 and Skyrim to be in this game like there are. But there's nothing wrong with just updating an engine to make it better instead of switching to a new one.
@OffTheRailGaming
@OffTheRailGaming Жыл бұрын
My biggest pet peve is the stuff that just feels bad, like sleeping, and what it's like to harvest plants, and the animation to hop into workshops. In skyrim the jank was okay. In fallout 4 it's age was starting to show. And in starfield it's like come on now. These systems are obviously easy to improve upon or change. So why aren't they doing it?
@EarnestWilliamsGeofferic
@EarnestWilliamsGeofferic Жыл бұрын
I don't want them to remove those workshop animations because, as silly as they are, they are hiding yet another loading screen.@@OffTheRailGaming
@winterhotfoot1958
@winterhotfoot1958 Жыл бұрын
What makes it seem worse is that some of the bugs that keep showing up in each new game are bugs that they had already fixed post-launch in the previous games, like the recurring rolling head bug. It's like they choose to use the buggy version, despite knowing about the bug and having coded a fix for it before, then they rush the game to release with the known, fixable bug, and only bother to patch the fix in after people complain or just plain hope that modders do the QA work for them. It's technical debt that exists as a result of systemic corner-cutting.
@OXY187
@OXY187 Жыл бұрын
If they switch to a different game engine, it’s going to be unreal engine and guess what? Their games will suck more ass because the only thing people love and tolerate bethesda for is modding. With limited or no modding, nobody will play their games after the launch. Streamers will play the game for a day or two, then move on.
@OffTheRailGaming
@OffTheRailGaming Жыл бұрын
@@OXY187 is it really that difficult to mod with another engine?
@DarkOmegaMK2
@DarkOmegaMK2 Жыл бұрын
Realistically, Bethesda has NO incentive to fix their engine. Their games sell super well every time they release something, even though it's the same game with a different theme, they also know that community will fix the bugs and problems with their games for free via modding. In truth, THIS kind of crap is what the community wanted, Bethesda is only delivering.
@exudeku
@exudeku Жыл бұрын
So the truth is, the game was rigged from the start?
@MithrilRoshi
@MithrilRoshi Жыл бұрын
Basically. Its the fast food of gaming. You cannot criticize the game or people scream and shout how their 70$ shitty flop house burger is the best burger ever.
@DarkOmegaMK2
@DarkOmegaMK2 Жыл бұрын
@@MithrilRoshi Well, that's perfect, gamers love fast food.
@diana.winter
@diana.winter Жыл бұрын
Starfield may just be the last Bethesda game I ever purchase because it demonstrates that nobody there has a clue what makes a game fun. Nothing about the game brings me joy so it has no place in my life.
@stevencase3289
@stevencase3289 Жыл бұрын
i don't want an elder scrolls game or fallout game to look and play like an unreal game , it's not the same by a long shot, saying they shouldn't use it is like saying valve shouldn't use source, you are right, the community wanted starfield to not lose the feel of creation engine jank and all, nobody wants to have to relearn the console commands either, if that mean community fixes fuck it. i like that my copy of skyrim will be completely different than anyone elses and bethesda gives out the tools for anyone who wants to tinker with the game the ability to munipulate essentially anything they want too
@pawnix4122
@pawnix4122 Жыл бұрын
13:09 As a technical artist who is batched in with just the art team, when an AAA game is in the very early stages of pre-production, the leads will have the art team create extremely basic placeholders for the game with the limited information we have access to via the designers, concept artists and so on. We do this so that when the designers, and writers are done with their thing, they can instantly cobble a prototype together. (completely untextured and with limited to no animations) This cobble of work then becomes a very early prototype for the game. Not the vertical slice, but a prototype to test the waters and see if the game would even play well. After that, art is informed of the game. Designers give art the complete asset lists and off we go making a game. Indie studios may not work like this, but this is how we do it in AAA studios for the most part.
@lunerlilly
@lunerlilly Жыл бұрын
Yeah I think the issue is they don't iron out those problems that come with testing. It's possible they even do the fancy stuff so they can, Pump it out faster. And there's nothing wrong with that, if they fixed old problems first lol. 😂
@CrniWuk
@CrniWuk Жыл бұрын
This is maybe not how Bethesda operates these days anymore, I don't know it, but years ago during Fallout 3 production Howard gave an Interview and mentioned once that their company does not have what's called a "pre-production" phase. What ever that means to them. They like go straight to the development process or something. Todd was rather vague here and hasn't really provided details what exactly it means. But honestly, it wouldn't surprise me when Bethesda does things different here to what is the typical standard of AAA developers. Already back then, one glaring issue of their game design in my opinion always was, that it missed a coherent design, so to speak. Yes, the world looked usually great artistically and they achieved in making something that's funn to explore. But it was always like a theme park. Like a situation where you move from one ride to another. A lot of stuff was not well conected. If at all. Quest designs, the writing, NPCs would wildley differ in quality. I think this is also true for Starfield to some extend. Except that now, it is lacking also in the exploration and world building element.
@j0nnyism
@j0nnyism 11 ай бұрын
Isn’t that usually the process when using a new engine or a new game design? Starfields game design was new but implemented poorly
@pawnix4122
@pawnix4122 11 ай бұрын
@j0nnyism that idna goof question. Depending on the game you are tasked with making, you may have to do what zi said (most cases), and in the case that you are working on a sequel or prequel to a game, you may have access to previous assets already as a start. Even if you know that the game is supposed to be in a franchise already, you don't know what it will look like, so you still follow the standard pipeline I wrote about in my comment above.
@ciscornBIG
@ciscornBIG 10 ай бұрын
You're making bad games and things worse. Stop participating in that industry and seek honest work.
@Omni-Rage
@Omni-Rage Жыл бұрын
You’re essentially the only one that successfully explains this type of stuff to me. Thank you. -40 yr old, smooth brained, diesel mechanic
@Tony_Goat
@Tony_Goat 9 ай бұрын
>Diesel mechanic >Smooth brained
@luxaniel
@luxaniel 9 ай бұрын
> Diesel brained > Smooth mechanic
@hellokatyfac3
@hellokatyfac3 8 ай бұрын
>Smooth Deisel >Brained Mechanic
@jo-flowbmoonsmell8564
@jo-flowbmoonsmell8564 Жыл бұрын
I feel they also need to look at some of their outdated design idioms. A lot of generic NPC chirps make it sound like you're trying to interact with them even though you're just walking by. They interrupt actual conversations you're having and most just feel like they're saying "I am a piece of software."
@Vaniity_Velvet
@Vaniity_Velvet Жыл бұрын
Oblivion didn't really have that issue. NPC's would make comments about you as you walked by "Look at the arms on you" if your strength was high. But, they were just comments.
@zeening
@zeening 10 ай бұрын
major agree, and the fucking NPC barks PLAYING OVER FUCKING DIALOGUE CONVERSATIONS YOU ARE ACTIVELY ENGAGED IN, that pissed me off bad. and the fact in like new jamison there's LITERALLY LIKE 3 OR 4 FREAKING LINES!!! you LITERALLY hear the same 3-4 things CONSTANTLY OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER again from maddddd different people.... it's so god damn obvious and immersion breaking
@warlokholmes
@warlokholmes Жыл бұрын
I consider myself pretty tolerant to loading screens but starfield is actually pretty bad, after 50ish hours I really started to be irritated by all the loading screens. I also started to notice how every POI on the map is the exact same buildings with the exact same enemy placement and loot in the exact same spot every time. It really brings you our of the experience to notice you've already been in this building.
@Bodwaizer
@Bodwaizer Жыл бұрын
Starfield's problem is not loading screens, it's that game is full of bland characters that not interesting in any way beyond initial introduction. Funny, for me too game lost it's magic around 50 hours and 24 level and that one planet where I was jumping in and out of freezing and damaging "water" to scan some fish for full planet scan.
@yanisole1806
@yanisole1806 Жыл бұрын
Loading screens was the main component on me leaving the game at near 20-30 hours
@billymays1761
@billymays1761 11 ай бұрын
I gave up on the game after 23-25 hours. Too many loading screens, shit writing, poorly directed voice acting, one-note combat, terrible pacing, fetch quests, walking sims for 10 minutes from one npc to another only to fast travel to a planet for 5 minutes of combat and traveling back to the quest giver. I have more fun watching videos on Starfied than playing it.
@zeening
@zeening 10 ай бұрын
the copy pasted POIs really really really really did a number for me... i've only been to 60-70 planets and was already getting copy pasted shit... that REALLY had me like wow this is.... ridiculous... idc about loading screens we should all have SSDs it's 2023 and they're like $40(noone better give me the REEEE I DON'T HAVE MONEY spiel.. i don't work, I don't have money but i was able to scrape together $40 to get one) but to make such a big point and highlight about how OMG OUR GAME WILL HAVE 1,000 PLANETS IT WILL BE THE BIGGEST GAME!!! YOU CAN GO ANYWHERE!!!! and then have copy pasted SHIT after seeing less than 1/10th of that is.... GTFO lol
@zeening
@zeening 10 ай бұрын
@@billymays1761 actually now that you mention it the combat WAS pretty god damn dull >.< even using cheats to max everything and give myself the best of the best everything... melee is COMPLETELY unviable even trying to kill low level shit as an extremely high level-cheat enhanced PC and doing 35 freaking damage a swing which came out to sub 10% of the level 3 enemies HP, i was like WTF IS THIS!!??!!!?!?!?!?!? IM FULL MELEE BUILD!!!!???? then you switch to ranged.... 5 words.... Skip-Shot Hornet's Nest Shotgun. that will be all. literally sending nukes down range and killing *EVERYTHING* regardless of level/gear in an absolutely massive radius lol trivializes the literal fk out of the entire game. didn't even get to try any powers the thing was just so insanely OP nothing else was worth using... that and some weird janky with the magstorm and elemental mods making my game tweak out super hard, and all the mag- weapons(magstorm etc) aim being totally totally off and not hitting ANYWHERE even CLOSE to the cursor >.
@TheBHAitken
@TheBHAitken Жыл бұрын
With Starfield I see a lot of regression, and not only loading screens but also in just plain editing.
@Mirthful_Midori
@Mirthful_Midori Жыл бұрын
Starfield is twenty years of Bethesda's decline and dumbing down, condensed and distilled into one single title. Everything about this is Bethesda's worst design choices amplified. From railroading the player to the tedium of the combat.
@TheRedRaven_
@TheRedRaven_ Жыл бұрын
The game is decent but my god does it have bugs.
@OrangeNash
@OrangeNash 10 ай бұрын
@@Mirthful_Midori You said it! For me, who started with Morrowind, in a strange way, Starfield showed that those older games were all a bit .. rubbish. Starfield cranks the worst bits up and highlights them, but they were always there. Generic dialog that could be spoken by any character "Fred Jones shop has some good shields in stock". "I wonder if it will rain tomorrow". Compare to something like BG3 or RDR2, where characters have actual "character" and you can tell who said what because they don't all speak the same way. Anyway, TES6 is going to be awful. My only hope is that it will be hilariously awful, like Oblivion. Entertaining in that way that some bad movies are so bad they are funny.
@michaelbowling1362
@michaelbowling1362 Жыл бұрын
Starting to wonder if Microsoft's acquisitions are worth it. They seem to be buying companies who are on a downwards trajectory.
@are3287
@are3287 Жыл бұрын
Microsoft is always acquiring the dead and dying. You just know something is done if microsoft acquires it. This has been going on for decades now
@crimsondragon1794
@crimsondragon1794 Жыл бұрын
because they are alot easier to purchase due too the tanking cost of shares. it's kinda predatory. but that's the game industry.
@FuckGoogle502
@FuckGoogle502 Жыл бұрын
Bethesda literally changed how they were doing business to look more appealing to Microsoft. I think Microsoft itself is the reason for the downwards trajectory of all their studios.
@owlsandwolves
@owlsandwolves Жыл бұрын
It's worth it since We the people who are using Autodesk and Adobe is Suffering for Years Now, Gamers should also Feel are Pain, Ready you're 1500$ a year Gamers you gonna need it! XD
@crimsondragon1794
@crimsondragon1794 Жыл бұрын
@@owlsandwolves yeah unity tried that. didn't work out for them. lost most of their market share. and alot of people have gone to an open source engine. so no, not gonna happen. if your suffering from your software. try switching software. it's really that simple.
@SuwinTzi
@SuwinTzi Жыл бұрын
Theres a reddit post that speculates Starfield was supposed to be more survival based than what we got. With needing outposts to refuel and explore the right side of the map, actually planning around hazards and afflictions.
@DarthB1ggles
@DarthB1ggles Жыл бұрын
That's the only way this game would really make sense. The fact that I can just walk around a heavily irradiated planet and be just fine afterwards, even tho it's telling me I need to worry about being irradiated.. doesn't add up. All that happens is a stupid debuff to your O2 regeneration or something. Obviously watered down.
@SuwinTzi
@SuwinTzi Жыл бұрын
​@@DarthB1gglesthe only good news is that both Skyrim and FO4 got a free survival based update, so theres good chance that BGS will do so. Everything is already there, theyd just need to make ships consume fuel when jumping, and increase the time it takes to recover from afflictions.
@levisorenson7873
@levisorenson7873 Жыл бұрын
This is just more speculation, but what if Microsoft got involved with this one(unlike Redfall), and told then to nerf and tone all that stuff way down. I love survival games, but they usually aren't top sellers. They did delay the game for a year after all. I've put over 200 hours, and to me it seems clear that eating and managing fuel were intended to be more core mechanics of the game. You can see it even with certain things NPCs say. It doesn't strike me as laziness or "half-baked" ideas. It strikes me more as if some core mechanics were removed from the game. But ultimately, I'm just talking out my ass. Maybe these were just things that were never fleshed out. I don't really care about the loading screens really. How many you see in the game, sort of depends on how you play and travel. But I understand why some people are bothered by it.
@SuwinTzi
@SuwinTzi Жыл бұрын
@@levisorenson7873 no i had the same feeling too, and it's absolutely possible it was removed cause survival doesn't have mass appeal. Think about how early minecraft was versus modern minecraft.
@levisorenson7873
@levisorenson7873 Жыл бұрын
@SuwinTzi Last night I was listening to that Todd Howard interview that Lex Friedman did. Todd basically says that in the original version of the game, you had to manage your fuel. If you ran out, you'd have to either mine it or put out a distress/help beacon and wait for someone. But it was removed because it turned out not to be "fun." I wonder who it was that decided that wasn't fun? Haha
@robotsix6268
@robotsix6268 Жыл бұрын
To add to this: Starfield can do seamless travel between planets, and Bethesda had a trick to hide the loading screen when travelling between star systems, but they cut it because according to someone, "it wasn't fun." You can see remnants of these features in one of the trailers, and in the game itself. Set the speed of your space craft to an impossible amount in the console and boost your way to another planet. It just works.
@xx_amongus_xx6987
@xx_amongus_xx6987 Жыл бұрын
Based off what people are saying about Starfield, it's for the better they cut it. Apparently seeing your ship land on a planet is too much for some players, I can't imagine what the outrage would be if people had to fly to planets or star systems.
@thishandleistaken1011
@thishandleistaken1011 Жыл бұрын
That's crazy.
@justinsmith3456
@justinsmith3456 Жыл бұрын
To be fair I tried it out a bit. For example: you can physically fly your ship from where you pop into orbit above Jamison to the Eye space station (which is also in orbit but can be quiet a distance away). That was a solid 10 minutes in a pretty fast ship. It was also not fun. After that I thought a little animation, 1 second of load screen and bam I'm there was much preferable.
@HunterTracks
@HunterTracks Жыл бұрын
I'm pretty sure you can travel to a different system with no loading screen, instead sitting through a grav jump cutscene. Just aim at the system and select it like you would select a ship you wanted to loot, that will open the travel prompt. I find it baffling that the game doesn't feel the need to explain that you can travel without a star map, and instead just pointing your ship at the destination and pressing A (E on PC). A lot of people complain about the lack of feature that's not actually lacking.
@monody
@monody Жыл бұрын
Because their design was bad and the engine still has other limitations they failed to address. As other's point out, even setting the speed very high still takes a lot of time. The simple solution would be "Well just make your ship go even faster." Problem is, that will most assuredly break the game. Bethesda loads their scenes as a grid of cells, which render based on proximity to the player. This is fine, that's how plenty do it. Except it's slow at performing this cell call and update. You make your ship move too fast, it'll rocket you into unloaded cell spaces faster than the game can keep up. This can cause all sorts of issues for the game as it starts making a backlog of cells it has to update, load, and unload. So rather than deal with that issue, they just void the travel part entirely. But we can look at another game to see how they dealt with the issue. I know some people get annoyed about it, but No Man's Sky is a valuable reference here because they do a few clever workarounds. One is the simple "multiple speed tiers" mechanic. You have your fly-around speed, and then you have your space-traversal speed. On top of that, they cheat the size of space by dilating the scale of planets and other objects relative to the players. IE, they physically shrink and grow the scale of distant assets as you travel away or towards them. This offers a multiplicative effect with travel where they can use a much smaller scene with much fewer cells necessary to load and move through content, which works very well in space because of how sparse those scenes are by default (outside the simple stuff like asteroids). Bethesda could have actually made a pretty seamless, and fast, travel system between planets. Bethesda is not a strongly technical studio though.
@intoxxau
@intoxxau Жыл бұрын
The best skill in starfield is jetpack because it lets you bypass many loading screens by just flying to the location instead of using an elevator, or the NAT in New Atlantis etc. The worst thing about the fast travel is that some of it clearly isn't even necessary and is in fact slower than just traversing the environment
@OffTheRailGaming
@OffTheRailGaming Жыл бұрын
Yeah, the jetpack is absolutely the best change that they made in the game. (Even though you could basically do the same thing in fallout 4 but let's just give them this one.)
@ogun6464
@ogun6464 Жыл бұрын
This is a silly argument. The biggest thing holding Bethesda back is being Bethesda; releasing shoddy products and expecting their long suffering fans to fix them for free.
@wsippel
@wsippel Жыл бұрын
During the early years of the Star Citizen controversy, a common opinion was that CIG made a huge mistake basing their game on CryEngine. What a lot of the critics didn't understand was that no off-the-shelf engine could do what CIG needed, so they could either start entirely from scratch, or use any random engine as a starting point. They had several Crytek senior engineers on board from the beginning, including some of the original architects of CryEngine, so they obviously were intimately familiar with the codebase and the tools, which made it a decent starting point. Probably a great decision in the long run too, given that the version of CryEngine they used as a base for StarEngine is now open source under the MIT license (just like Godot) and royalty free. Bethesda has similar specific requirements and an established workflow and toolset, so switching to something else would be quite difficult. It's not like they didn't have other options - they outright own id Tech after all.
@sibusiso2841
@sibusiso2841 11 ай бұрын
I say keep the engine forever. I'd love to see if it still has loading screens while we walking around with cybernetic prosthetics.
@PapalTime
@PapalTime 11 ай бұрын
There were plenty of vocal minority screechers saying to use the gamebryo engine for Star Citizen as well. There was no better choice than CryTek. I've been playing around in their engines since Far Cry and while UE5 is starting to gain ground against it, historically no other engine comes close in the potential scale, accuracy, fidelity and efficiency of their engine. I've got hope for Star Citizen lately for the first time in a long time. Instead of two steps forward and three back, they seem to be making headway.
@AdityaWaghmare
@AdityaWaghmare 11 ай бұрын
I didn’t knew StarEngine was open source and royalty free. Given their recent demonstration during Citizencon, I thought they were going to start leasing out engine like others.
@wsippel
@wsippel 11 ай бұрын
@@AdityaWaghmare StarEngine isn't open source, Lumberyard, now O3DE, is. That's what StarEngine is based on. The head of CIG's Frankfurt studio, where most of the engine development happens, stated they had no plans licensing out StarEngine to anyone, and I have no idea if they have plans to open source their modifications. Would be great, but I'm not going to hold my breath.
@nolandderlugner1351
@nolandderlugner1351 10 ай бұрын
Lmao no one gonna use that crap
@jrfour2408
@jrfour2408 Жыл бұрын
The creation engine is old. It's clunky; it was showing it's stretch marks in Skyrim, let alone fallout 4. What's really holding back Bethesda is laziness. The constant laziness to not improve or be better.
@joshuajefferson3504
@joshuajefferson3504 Жыл бұрын
Why would they fix it since modders have been doing that to Bethesda games for years. 😐
@RiversJ
@RiversJ Жыл бұрын
It isn't the age of the engine why it's clunky, it is clunky because they are greedy and lazy. Many of the engines used today began their cycle in the 1990s, but other companies have continually improved and refactored them over the years, not so with Bethesda it seems, they seem obstinately averse to change and will be their downfall eventually if they don't.
@Deliveredmean42
@Deliveredmean42 Жыл бұрын
ID Tech, Unreal Engine, Unity, Cry Engine. They all have in common: they are hecking old too. Most being 20+ years. The difference is that they evolve these Engine to the point that you couldn't recognize them. Some stikl have their legacy features that are still useful or notoriety, but rewrites eventually catch on to them to make them feel modern. Now the Creation does need a proper second attempt (or first if you want to be coy) at a rewrite, and finally introducing level streaming. Bethesda will of course have no choice to have it in their next game, as it's impossible to add it I'm Starfield at this point, unless something Early Access level of crazy will change that fact, but no.
@Owl90
@Owl90 Жыл бұрын
They would have to be really dumb to spend money improving anything, when people still keep buying their low effort games.
@Vash12788
@Vash12788 11 ай бұрын
Creation Engine (Gamebryo), has always been amazing for custom content, mod support. They've been slapping minor graphical updates on it every game they do but they don't fix the core issues underneath that keep plaguing every release. Bethesda is great at making a customizable sandbox, they aren't great at making games.
@tylerkriesel8590
@tylerkriesel8590 10 ай бұрын
What is the “core” issue?
@dashofdinosaur
@dashofdinosaur 10 ай бұрын
​@@tylerkriesel8590 Disclaimer not a programmer but I have worked with some game engines before. Big issue with Gamebryo (at least last I heard years ago) is the way it handles npc's and objects. The engine treats each object/npc as avatars like the main character; this is fine for what the engine was originally developed for MMO's, but using this for every object limits the number of objects they can have in one scene at a time. The benefits of the engine is making the kind of living world they are creating where each NPC has their own AI package, and having such easy moddability because everything is based on a singular class. Because the difference between NPC, Object and Player, doesnt really exist. It works fine, but it is also a lot of unnecessary complication that is in the core of the engine, and everything they add after that is based on that.
@goosepapoose8666
@goosepapoose8666 9 ай бұрын
Another problem is how every change to the world is static and adds up to a bogged down save file. On ps3 it resulted in a broken file that no longer loaded or ran, for every single game on the engine. All the same result, oblivion, f3, fnv, and skyrim. The problem was never the ps3, it was ps3 AND Bethesda. The problem still persists, just most consoles/computers are able to handle it. But it does get buggier the longer you play on any system, ANY game. The more of a potato it runs on, the worse it gets. I highly suspect that Starfields NG+ was designed to reset this problem. Why? Because it does exactly that. My file froze every 15 minutes after doing all the quests on series S (not even a potato). It stopped after ng+. I'm not even saying this for proof, anyone can test this. Lastly, people reaaallly need to stop saying creation engine is great for mods. There are mods for every game that people want to mod. Heaps of mods for current games like cp2077 and BG3 only a few years in. Creation engine/kit being "easy" is a moot point. Clearly it's time to scrap it. They've been tacking things on and now Starfield is BY DESIGN barren and empty just so it can (barely) run!
@Michael-bn1oi
@Michael-bn1oi 9 ай бұрын
​​@@goosepapoose8666 Creation engine *is* really easy to mod. That is a fact. It is incredibly difficult to do the same kind of mods for Fallout and Elder Scrolls in other games. CP2077 doesn't have whole additional states with whole questlines full of hundreds of new npcs, though Fallout and Elder Scrolls does. The person above you explained exactly why modding it is easier. Just because you don't understand doesn't mean it isn't absolutely true. Bethesda needs to make a new engine, absolutely, but they need to make it as easy to mod.
@TheRedRobin96
@TheRedRobin96 9 ай бұрын
I was going to say something similar. Gamebryo and Creation are fine to an extent they just refuse to innovate and fix problems with the system that modders have fixed years go. They have also developed a bad habit of a "Good enough" and "the modders will fix it" approach which has led to sloppy presentation. Just to start with there is a KZbinr by the name ItsYaBoyBrandyBoy. They have a series on the lazy and awful design of most of the weapons present in Fallout 4, Fallout: New Vegas and Starfield. They went over the lazy and impractical design on the weapons and how they are usually wrong compared to real world counterparts and how most of the issues could have been easily avoided.
@bdehora
@bdehora Жыл бұрын
One of your best videos of late. The intersection of folks that can actually make games, can talk about games, can talk about the industry, with fidelity and quality is very narrow, I feel like Bellular's somewhat unique here. I'm willing to bet most viewers don't realise how much sweat goes into the porcelain and tools companies create over standard 3rd party tech to get things done and how this pins them and their staff on a specific engine. Also, that in-house tech, so surgically sharp to begin with often fails to scale, especially on tooling affordances for things like scale up on level design, never mind the scope creep you mentioned around gaming models, because in-house tends to focus downward into technical improvements rather than being an-house product for use by others. At the same time wrt Bethesda. Definitionally RPGs have to get faces right and stay near state of the art, especially as we move past dialog trees to subtle in-world state and the rise of VA talent: what Starfield does here is veering towards unacceptable for AAA. I wonder how ES-6 will fare even while accepting it might not matter because Starfield is clearly driving Xbox sales. Loading screens, yes,. but loading times have become less acceptable in this console generation because of the NVMe bet and similarly BG3, while leading on so many dimensions. has load/save times that are excruciating on console. Which probably speaks to your point that engine choices are basically tradeoff choices.
@Hmuda
@Hmuda Жыл бұрын
First 5 seconds in, and no. The Creation Engine is not what's holding them back. It's just a symptom. It's laziness and complacency is what's holding them back, their unwillingness to change engines is just the result of it all. I can easily see AMAZING games being made with that engine just fine (example: New Vegas), but their game design team are incompetent, their writers are abysmal, and their QA is obviously a very distant afterthought.
@xx_amongus_xx6987
@xx_amongus_xx6987 Жыл бұрын
As incredible as Fallout NV's world and choices are... lets be real, the other aspects of the game would not hold up that well today. They would be taken just as well as people are taking Starfield, if not worse.
@Daxel134
@Daxel134 Жыл бұрын
@@xx_amongus_xx6987 tbh im not sure, The game really lets you do anything you want and the world feels alive where it make sense. the game looks rough ofc and maybe the gameplay is janky but I always used sniper so i never had a issue with it
@Mirthful_Midori
@Mirthful_Midori Жыл бұрын
They didn't need to replace the engine, they needed to do more than the minimum to keep it functional. Fromsoft is another company that's used their own engine for a very long time and you don't see nearly as many issues with their games as there are with Bethesda. I don't know how long they've been using it, but Dark Souls 2 is the only game of there's that I know used a different engine.
@DanJuega
@DanJuega 2 ай бұрын
Lol I love NV but its age shows.
@DanJuega
@DanJuega 2 ай бұрын
@@Mirthful_Midori That doesn't say anything about the quality of the creation engine.
@ZorroVulpes
@ZorroVulpes Жыл бұрын
If bethesda used their new engine they couldn't rely on modders to do the second half of the development cycle for them
@cinifiend
@cinifiend Жыл бұрын
If I was a talented modder I wouldn't waste my time with a junky game like Starfield.
@berkinguvenc318
@berkinguvenc318 Жыл бұрын
Mind you no other engine allows you the flexibility Creation Engine provides. You would have to create an engine. Look at Star Citizen. Great tech platform, but it's still alpha. And it took them more than 600 million dollars. It sure is flexible, but it probably won't be complete without another 600 million and 6 years.
@jakedizzle
@jakedizzle Жыл бұрын
@@berkinguvenc318I’m sure a lot of that was pocketed.
@asddasasdful
@asddasasdful Жыл бұрын
The Creation Kit 2.0 should launch soon ™, so we can take a look at the tools and any improvements over the previous version. But judging by the chests still hiding under all vendors I'd say not and makes me worried for ES6.
@tronosphere
@tronosphere Жыл бұрын
im not worried at all. i have like 400 hours in skyrim and had no idea the buried chest thing was a thing. i value the modders comfort with the engine over the 1st gameplay experience when it comes to bethesda games. i just need them to provide as many assets as possible create a good enough world to fit the effort of modders. yes i am aware that isnt how games should be made, just bethesdas
@sabastianleisek396
@sabastianleisek396 Жыл бұрын
That is the charm, and problem with Bethesda. The games they make turn into amazing sandboxes for modders to run wild. Though that comes at the cost of the "it just works" mindset from the devs. It doesn't "just work". I got some solid specs on my PC, and Starfield still has lag spikes that hit regularly. It feels like scripting issues, which means modders have to work harder for any decent mods to actually work.
@TheShitpostExperience
@TheShitpostExperience Жыл бұрын
@@sabastianleisek396 I hate the "bethesda charm" thing, it's an excuse most bethesda fanboys use the shield the studio from publishing games with problems that even modern games that get shit on wouldn't pass by, and I'm not talking about bugs like floating NPCs, weird faces, etc. But things like "I don't care if I don't have vehicles on planet surfaces for exploration" or "loading screens don't bother me" as long as people can have 1000 cheese wheeles rolling down a hill, or someone can have 10k cartons of milk on space and they have physics. Why would people have things that are meaningless in a game isntead of having a game running at a better performance, without bugs that have been carried on for a decade or 2, terrible asset loading, etc. CP77 2.0 requires an SSD to load high definition textures but at least it looks nice, starfield high definition textures for 4K looks like a 2015 game half the time...
@S3frog
@S3frog Жыл бұрын
I find it funny that people would focus on the chest hiding unver vendors. It isn't an elegant solution but unless you clip through walls, you will never notice that. If it ain't broke...
@asddasasdful
@asddasasdful Жыл бұрын
Oh no true, when I first heard of it I thought it was probably a clever designer going around a problem without needing the help of programmers. I was using it more as a metaphor for how their tech has "evolved". I also think that Bethesda's games were never about graphics so fingers crossed for ES6!@@S3frog
@ruslansbehterevs-uw5ho
@ruslansbehterevs-uw5ho Жыл бұрын
Starfield Would have not been impresive 8 years ago .
@thesunthrone
@thesunthrone Жыл бұрын
Really appreciate these introductions to project scope and management to add on the general gaming discussion. While I agree that regular gamers shouldn't really care how the sausage is made and only care about how good it tastes, it's still very good to bring these concepts to the table - if only to improve the feedback that gamers can give to developers when they don't like the experience they're having. Being at least somewhat informed means they can ask more pointed questions, rather than just "game bad, make game good" and think that's being constructive.
@edwardaldrich7213
@edwardaldrich7213 Жыл бұрын
The infinite monkey theorem states that a monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will almost surely type any given text, including the complete works of William Shakespeare. It's really simple - dedicate one team to build a new engine and give up Todd's pay for 1/4 of a year. The problem would be solved but it won't be from big game companies because they are stuck in a destructive greed loop.
@justinsmith3456
@justinsmith3456 Жыл бұрын
​@@edwardaldrich7213Todd Howard doesn't own BGS. He never did. He's a game director. That means he is beholden to the people that actually own the studio, Bethesda Softworks and beyond that Zenimax. By your analogy Todd is the monkey at the typewriter.
@pureventrue2357
@pureventrue2357 Жыл бұрын
This reminded me of another video I saw years ago that delved into the technical issues Bethesda games tend to face, & how it's less about the core engine itself & much more about the implementation of various tools & systems. It looks at the history & origins of the creation engine back to netimerse & what it was originally built for, other games you may not know were built using gamebryo that didn't have the issues Bethesda games always tend to have, a look at Skyrim's scripting system & the role that plays in some of the issues, the list goes on. For anyone curious about the subject, the video is called "The creation engine did nothing wrong". It's a bit tongue in cheek but pretty informatigve & well worth checking out.
@monody
@monody Жыл бұрын
I would posit a contradiction that emerges between the point made in this video that a large chunk of an engine is those custom tools/plugins. That runs in conflict with the statement made by "The creation engine did nothing wrong". Even ignoring that element, it's just hot potato problem of passing the buck... to the same people responsible for either any ways. Whether you look at the tools as part of the engine or not, it's still Bethesda that has developed the content pipeline and codebase that they keep using from one game to the next, carrying with it many of the same unresolved issues from one to the next. Functionally, it just leads to being a red herring argument.
@pureventrue2357
@pureventrue2357 Жыл бұрын
@@monody I kinda see where you're coming from but it's clearly been said that it's not the core foundation of the creation engine as much as the slap-dash way they've bolted on the other bits & pieces. Not really seeing the contradiction as this video already mentioned abusing the engine. Also if you actually watched the video, you'll notice that he goes on to say "Bethesda did EVERYTHING wrong" which is a pretty clear "they're responsible" which is something I agree with you 100% on. I just thought it was an interesting further look into some of the technical things going on behind the scenes & why some things are the way they are. That was all.
@monody
@monody Жыл бұрын
@@pureventrue2357 The contradiction comes from the inherent subject of "what is an engine" that differentiates from these two videos. Zaric's argument separates the tools from the engine, in which case it contradicts the notion that the engine is "new" since a lot of those updated rendering plugins and tools are what shapes the move from "gamebryo" to "creation". Meanwhile here, the tools are a big part of what makes an engine what it is, with the core only being a small component of the overall package. I actually watched Zaric's video a good time back and did a pretty in-depth response and rebuttal to it too at the time, as there were other things he took for granted with his arguments, but I'm fairly confident it's been swallowed up in the ensuing four years. But yeah, the net result is, be it the engine or the tools, they are both Bethesda's creation and their resulting methodology with them.
@pureventrue2357
@pureventrue2357 Жыл бұрын
@@monody Bit tired so I had to re-read that a couple times before it clicked, but I think I get what you mean & that's a fair point. Yeah though as you said, the net result. I'll take a look through the comments & see if I can find yours, I'm interested to know your counter points. I'm not a dev nor do I have any background in programming so I'm just doing my best to follow & understand what I can.
@josetrigueiro5978
@josetrigueiro5978 Жыл бұрын
The video @pureventree2357 is talking about is titled "The Creation Engine Did Nothing Wrong | It's Bethesda! | Morrowind to Fallout 76" and is by KZbinr Zaric Zhakaron. It's worth seeing! Pay attention to the fact that these Bethesda games were created with consoles in mind and later converted to PC.
@TallDarknGruesome
@TallDarknGruesome Жыл бұрын
Considering Modders have made better content and the major bug fix mods in some cases, I wouldn't say the issue is the engine. its that Bethesda is for some reason unable to optimize their own in house engine, which is an amazing state to be in.
@ingrudmessenger1193
@ingrudmessenger1193 Жыл бұрын
Yes... and no. If you're talking to those modders and which technical issues they struggle with it becomes very obvious that the engine has huge flaws. It's often a pain in the ass to handle things so the game doesn't have a 69% chance to implode on random things. Which i guess is why Bethesda doesn't even attempt them. And some other issues aren't that hard to fix, but why would they when there's an army of volunteers waiting to do that for them for free.
@NicholasBrakespear
@NicholasBrakespear Жыл бұрын
I second the other dude - the issue IS the engine. Speaking as a former Skyrim modder, the creation engine was ghastly, truly ghastly to work with. It had so many design flaws and obnoxious limitations, it felt like everything I wanted to do involved bending stuff until I could hear it creak ominously. The fact that modders have managed to perform miracles on Bethesda games is nothing new - necessity is the mother of invention, and we live in a world in which people have managed to get Doom running on everything from refrigerators to pregnancy tests, just because they could. That they could, is not an indication that the platform they madly chose to work with is worthy of their talents. Let's not forget - modders made a rally game for Half-Life 1.
@TallDarknGruesome
@TallDarknGruesome Жыл бұрын
@@NicholasBrakespear I respect your opinion and what you have done, but doesn't it kind of prove my point? If one guy can eventually pound his head against these problems and solve them, Why is the team of 400 that built the engine unable to?
@NicholasBrakespear
@NicholasBrakespear Жыл бұрын
@@TallDarknGruesome It's not that they have 400 people working on the engine tirelessly, focused on fixing things theoretically - it's not that any of them necessarily even "built" the engine (a lot of it dates way back). It's that they have a huge pile of people given specific tasks, often laid off when their specific task is done (a common thing in the games industry at this point from what I gather), potentially mismanaged, working with antiquated and badly designed tools that should have been fixed and overhauled by other people long since... ...and a lot of the work is outsourced to cheaper teams who have no ability to work on the engine and don't necessarily have a direct communication line with the people who could. So to put it another way, you'd be absolutely right in saying it's not JUST the engine; the general development pattern is awful, the people in charge are making awful decisions and they're outsourcing too much stuff... but even if none of that were true? The engine is still garbage and a real pain to work with. The tools are badly structured and not conducive to good design flow. That someone focused and determined like a crazy modder can circumvent or even fix many of the engine issues in-game doesn't really alter those facts, and there are some engine limitations that are simply impossible to work around. So to put it very simply, if a better development pattern existed, you'd certainly get a better product. But it would still be severely impeded by the engine, and the tools, and prone to bugs and issues arising as a result.
@thishandleistaken1011
@thishandleistaken1011 Жыл бұрын
I don't see any reason why they couldn't hire more people. For example to make better facial animations, or better procedural generation. It's not like they're an indie studio. I agree that it isn't an engine issue, but I do think it is still AN ISSUE. The face lighting shouldn't be this bad for example, modders on Skyrim fixed that a decade ago.
@MaFo82
@MaFo82 Жыл бұрын
Sticking to the same game engine is possible if you make an effort to improve it over time. Paradox Interactive created their Clausewitz Engine back in 2007 specifically to handle grand strategy games and it has worked pretty well until today. I think part of the issues for Bethesda is that their games are pretty different from eachother and thus it's hard to work on the Creation Engine to be able to handle them all.
@Mirthful_Midori
@Mirthful_Midori Жыл бұрын
I don't know exactly how old Fromsoft's engine is, but they've been using it for quite awhile now, with exception for Dark Souls 2. Someone has even been porting stuff like maps and models from Armored Core 6 into Elden Ring. Bethesda's games aren't really different enough to justify them struggling so much. Not when so many of various games features are recycled. Like Skyrim's enchantment system being reused for Fallout 4's "legendary" weapons or the reuse of the dragon's AI for the vertibirds. Looking at Starfield and its combat systems are virtually identical to F4, they just changed how the legendary enemies work and removed VATS. In fact, the dog fighting is the only truly new thing Starfield has. Everything else may as well just be a total conversion mod for F4.
@Rexhunterj
@Rexhunterj Жыл бұрын
The people who actually created the BGS Creation Engine and sold it to BGS told them that their idea of open world games would not work well with that particular engine configuration. You can bet they were ignored. Yes they managed to make an 'open world' in it but look at the time it takes to produce a BGS game and look how many bugs still make it to release?
@MarianoDevourment
@MarianoDevourment Жыл бұрын
Bethesda games different from each other? lol They are all the same, reskinned interations of the same... in fact they had been simplifying and cutting content and mechanics from previous games. Only introduced feature since arena is base building and it sucks. Meanwhile they scrapped procedural terrain generation, more in depth rpg stats, more in depth dialogs and outcomes, and many impressive features on AI and npc mechanics that existed in daggerfall. Compare that to the evolution of Doom and its engine and games.
@exosproudmamabear558
@exosproudmamabear558 Жыл бұрын
Yeah engine itself isnt the problem. They just do not do anything to update and barely improve it isthe problem but if the initial engine is good of course. If the initial engine is just a dumpster fire then you will have problem to make it up to the today's standards
@Vaniity_Velvet
@Vaniity_Velvet Жыл бұрын
@@MarianoDevourment Radiant AI was Ground Breaking for good reason, to this day there is still not an AI systems as effective at emulating a living world. So, I would consider Radiant AI one of those causalities. Yes, it still technically exists. But, compare Oblivion to Skyrim then Skyrim to Fallout 4 then Fallout 4 to Starfield. There is a very clear pattern of stripping and restraining Radiant since Skyrim. Technically Oblivion because they had to disable and cut a bunch of it's features late in development of the game. IT was just too good at emulating a living world and they didn't have the time to fine-tune it... Allegedly. Julian Lafey has said that Todd was a decent person but a terrible Dungeon Master and would go out of his way to force you to do what he wanted you to do. It's possible he stripped it down because he didn't like the idea of the game it's self not following his rules and story.
@praisetheoak
@praisetheoak Жыл бұрын
After +6 years of development, we received an okay game that is fundamentally worse at every single aspect compared to previous Bethesda titles. They even had one of the best settings full of potential for a videogame, Space, yet the came to us with the most uninspired, bland, bare-bones, down-to-earth take possible on it yet.
@thenightowls2804
@thenightowls2804 Жыл бұрын
Fundamentally worse than every other Bethesda game? I think that's nostalgia talking. Morrowind had a big ass empty world, Oblivion had almost nothing to do outside of cities, Skyrim had incredibly repetitive dungeons, Fallout 4 was barely an rpg, etc.
@danielsaines602
@danielsaines602 Жыл бұрын
Morrowind is great, it's not just nostalgia. Though it plays a part, I'll skip the rant about all the things it had. Go watch a 12 hour video on it if you want to know. Although the 20+ year old game does look dated today. But that's also true of Starfield, which is the main problem people are having. Spoilers. Starfield's story is fundamentally, and objectively worse than all the others, since it's a multiverse story. So everything is infinite and meaningless. The whole point of story telling is to get you to feel emotions, but you don't care about anyone in a multiverse. There's a infinite number of that person/thing/moment so they lose value. @@thenightowls2804
@mitchellhorton9382
@mitchellhorton9382 Жыл бұрын
@@thenightowls2804 I think it's more that every other Bethesda game did something else better than Starfield, so Starfield is like, 2nd or 3rd best at everything. Morrowind was largely empty but it was incredibly immersive because you had to learn to navigate the world. Oblivion had a much better story and in the cities at least the citizen routines were crazy for the time Skyrim has just outright spectacle and high impact moments Fallout's 3 and 4 had bolder, more innovative systems for when they were released. I guess 76 is worse but that's not saying much. Starfield doesn't do anything we haven't seen done better somewhere else; it feels like like Outer Worlds to me
@HANKTHEDANKEST
@HANKTHEDANKEST 10 ай бұрын
@@thenightowls2804 Everything Starfield does, a previous Bethesda game does better. It's unfinished, and not very fun, and unlike the ES or FO games it has NO SOUL whatsoever to fall back on. Bland as fuck, vanilla storylines, neutered pointless outposts that do half of what they did in FO4, pissweak companion characters with exactly one moral compass type (losers) so yeah, fundamentally worse.
@Veritas.0
@Veritas.0 Жыл бұрын
New Engine? I'd rather have a bunch of mods on an old engine than a bunch of different bugs and no mods on a new engine.
@DanJuega
@DanJuega 2 ай бұрын
False equivalence.
@brovid-19
@brovid-19 11 ай бұрын
Everytime i open creation engine and start working on anything, i always think "why do the devs torture themselves like this..."
@SuperHns
@SuperHns 10 ай бұрын
I also think the passing of Adam Adamowicz in 2012 hurt Bethesda, as he was one of the great designers and Skyrim was his last work before he fell ill to lung cancer and died. His last fully dedicated work was Oblivion and Fallout 3,
@WireWhiz
@WireWhiz Жыл бұрын
Game engine dev, the eye thing isn’t a game engine issue (unless the facial anim is a core feature) it’s a lack of a blend-shape in the model. You could probably add the movement to the smile blend shape without adding any code as long as it isn’t used for any other expressions.
@tarkov666
@tarkov666 Жыл бұрын
What kills me is how they dont copy some of the features they already made in other titles. Starfield is missing so many QoL features already put into Fo76.
@Constellasian
@Constellasian Жыл бұрын
The Creation Engine was only part of the problem. The rest was Bethesda's refusal or lack of integrity to actually hire good writers and gameplay designers. Their games' main stories have always sucked. It's been nearly 2 decades and modders still make better animation and gameplay than Bethesda.
@ghost-user559
@ghost-user559 Жыл бұрын
Morrowind is absolutely the last time they hired a great writer, and it shows
@bigzed7908
@bigzed7908 Жыл бұрын
And remember, all for free or maybe, and I mean maybe a few donations.
@ozgurpeynirci
@ozgurpeynirci Жыл бұрын
They actually hired modders from skyrim, not sure if it's gonna help tho.
@ghost-user559
@ghost-user559 Жыл бұрын
@@ozgurpeynirci It does help, but the problem is that corporations suck all the fun out of everything and they give unrealistic expectations and deadlines. Remember every single gaming studio is full of enthusiastic people who got crushed by corporate rules and deadlines to become the failing Studios we see today. It’s not the talent that is the issue, it’s the greed of the corporation that ruins any game.
@ozgurpeynirci
@ozgurpeynirci Жыл бұрын
@@ghost-user559 I agree and there seems no solution to this.
@are3287
@are3287 Жыл бұрын
The problem isnt the game engine the problem is the devs are bad at their job
@rewpertcone8243
@rewpertcone8243 Жыл бұрын
That's not how game development works, if you give the best welder in the world a piece of junk and expect them to weld correctly its not gonna work
@ThePlayer920
@ThePlayer920 Жыл бұрын
@@rewpertcone8243 How would improving the engine fix Bethesda's writing, quest design or any of the other many issues? The modding tools for Starfield aren't out yet and people are already finding ways to improve the UI. The same incompetency persists with their previous games as well. The magic combat in Skyrim wasn't bad because of the Creation Engine, but because Bethesda did a poor job designing it and made spell damage scale poorly as you advance in the game. A glass sword gets stronger as you increase your one handed skill and apply the relevant enchantments, while fireballs only becomes cheaper to cast as you increase your destruction skill and get enchantments tied to it. Hell, Obsidian made New Vegas with only a slightly modified Fallout 3 engine and it still managed it to be leagues better than it.
@rewpertcone8243
@rewpertcone8243 Жыл бұрын
@ThePlayer920 quest design and writing are game design not game development, there's a very fair point to make about the design of the game
@ThePlayer920
@ThePlayer920 Жыл бұрын
@@rewpertcone8243 You're just arguing semantics now. Modders were able to add drivable cars to New Vegas by improving the engine's scripting capabilities through external plugins and yet we are supposed to believe that Bethesda is unable to do the same in Starfield despite popular demand and having access to the source code? What a joke.
@rewpertcone8243
@rewpertcone8243 Жыл бұрын
@ThePlayer920 Bethesda didn't add vehicles becuase it would just make their small maps feel even smaller, this is technical debt at its finest, they are being held back by their engine, making features take longer to make compared to better engines, meaning less stuff gets in the game
@LordElfa
@LordElfa 11 ай бұрын
I really appreciated the time you took to make this all understandable, thanks you.
@Space_Equestrian
@Space_Equestrian Жыл бұрын
Is the engine not up to par? Yes. But it's not the engine holding Bethesda back, it's themselves and their lack of wanting to improve their craft. Engines where pretty shit back in the 90s, but that didn't stop devs making some of the greatest games ever back then
@mikekuzmicz8408
@mikekuzmicz8408 Жыл бұрын
People really need to stop talking shit about the engine. Issues with their games don't stem from Creation engine 1 or 2. To the contrary, there would be no modding community without this engine. People who complain here want better visual fidelity. If you want it, go elsewhere. I would rather sacrifice visual fiedlity over the modding capabilities. The facial animations and bugs stem not from the engine but from the coders who worked on the engine and did not put more on those parts of the engine. For those unaware, the engine in Starfield is not too weak for everything to work in a singular world, it's the fact that it's also on consoles and actually less time for development that made it into a loading screen simulator. It is 100% fault on BGS Not the engine. It seriously pisses me off that people with 0 knowledge about the engine continuously talking shit about it. People made an open cities mod for Skyrim. It works well, until quests kinda break, because it's not a separate cell anymore. Honestly I probably could rant and rant about it, but seriously, if people think a completely new engine will make BGS games better, you don't know anything 😂
@sterrenbeeld1131
@sterrenbeeld1131 Жыл бұрын
I don't think the engine is the problem. If you look at Skyrim or Fallout 4, modders are able to change and add insane amounts of stuff, from animations to mechanics, graphics, etc. I think the problem is the way Bethesda thinks a game should work. +If they change their engine they will kill their PC community, if Bethesda released Elder Scrolls 6 running on Unreal I would play it maybe once and never again, the reason I have 800h of playtime on Skyrim are mods, and the truth is there is no other Engine as moddable as Creation Engine.
@ThePlayer920
@ThePlayer920 Жыл бұрын
How is the engine not a problem when most of the complex mods you mentioned require external plugins and tools? Before Dynamic Animation Replacer and FNIS were created, you couldn't really add new or replace existing animations in Skyrim.
@MrDukeharry
@MrDukeharry Жыл бұрын
This.
@KaletheQuick
@KaletheQuick 10 ай бұрын
I like what you said about the game showing its 'artifice.' that really puts the feeling into words in a new way. I grew up with Morrowind, and i miss the tilt towards the fantasy world simulator. I want to lose myself in a world again, feel like im a person in this living setting. But all i feel is like i pulled into another theme park 😔
@silentobserver888
@silentobserver888 Жыл бұрын
My mans also does peak discussion videos. I have only recently started indulging in your content, but from everything I can ascertain your positions seem very rational, not fanboy takes. You analyze many aspects to form a complete view which I appreciate and enjoy regarding discussion based topics. Espcially gaming discussions. Thank you for your long form videos.
@madjackgamingandfitness498
@madjackgamingandfitness498 Жыл бұрын
I thought the whole thing with starfield and ES6 was they were going to use an entirely new engine, and I thought the whole reason for delays was because of it. When that wasn’t the case that’s what made the game look so disappointing aside from deeper issues.
@tyler3201
@tyler3201 9 ай бұрын
No they said they were updating the game engine and they did that. They prioritized what they could do. Sadly it wasn’t enough to make starfield work they way many wanted it to work. Maybe it will be better for es6.
@jerod256
@jerod256 Жыл бұрын
I appreciate this little developers perspective on engines and game development.
@Nanatsaya77
@Nanatsaya77 10 ай бұрын
I believe the thing holding them back is themselves. They use to make great quests, memorable worlds,deep lore. You can make those in Daggerfalls engine.
@z0h33y
@z0h33y 9 ай бұрын
The engine isnt holding them back, its themselves who are holding them back. When you completely remove features that players loved, or when you completely drop the ball on certain gameplay aspects like Melee, its not the Engines fault.
@dwarfminerwillie
@dwarfminerwillie Жыл бұрын
So basically the engine does hold them back but they also haven't adapted their game design philosophy to stand up to the test of time too.
@frankiecoss7141
@frankiecoss7141 Жыл бұрын
Something that parallels this is COD. Back during COD: Black Ops III, if someone used the in-game VOIP, the game would freeze for a second. During that era of COD, all COD games used a modified version of the IW engine (from COD 2 all the way to COD: Black Ops IV). They rebuilt the engine for development on COD: Modern Warfare (2019) and COD: Warzone. When it comes to engine development, you can't keep building on an outdated core as what you are developing on that engine begins to outgrow it and hardware becomes more advanced. You can do so for a while, but you can only iterate over it so many times until it makes your head spin. The creation engine was made for tes: marrowind (2002). Back then the standard for CPU architecture was single core driven. And the excuse that "they can't abandon it because of modding", FALSE. You can very easily build a new engine while also maintaining its modability. The creation engine is only this modable compared to other engines is because Bethesda doesn't close the engine off. Any engine can be modible if the creator of the engine allows the functions to be public and gives out the tools to mod it. Terraria was never made to be a modable game, but there's mods for it because of MOD TOOLS and Relogic provide SUPPORT to the modding community. Same thing with Minecraft, although Mojang does not actually provide those tools, it is modable in nature because it is programmed in java. But nonetheless, the point still stands that the creation engine isn't the only engine that can ever make Bethesda games easily modable, it is the architect of the engine that puts the tools in place that allow what is built using the engine to be so. If the engine is built with the intent for it to be modable, then the games running the engine can be modable, creation engine or no creation engine. They can rebuild the engine with the same level of modablility (if not better) and fix the core issues they run into with the current creation engine rather than trying to build around those limitations. It's called SOFTWARE ENGINEERING.
@pizzapunt3960
@pizzapunt3960 Жыл бұрын
If the only problem is the core, just fix that part.
@jimman-beard2167
@jimman-beard2167 Жыл бұрын
I think another issue is the fact that the writing in older games was set in a fantastic setting, a post Apocalypse world in Fallout or the fantasy setting in the Elder Scrolls universe and that is Bethesda's writers Strength is. They made all kinds of strange missions (some better then others but it felt charming and wonderful). Starfield was too realistic in setting 1000 empty planets with rocks and the writers strengths in a fantasy setting was gone here. You simply have a lot of humans that send you on unimaginative fetch quests and few alien creatures that can never pose a threat to you. All the missions in starfield were so vanilla tasting it is strange its the same studio, all the followers are good, and most of the factions good, even the evil faction limits how evil or bad you could be. You cannot get immersed in a game where all of the named NPC are deemed Essential and cannot die. Basically if you like Dad jokes and being the good simp and want to play a extremely limited loading screen dialogue dump you will love Starfield, if you like a immersive universe where you can role play an evil or good person and have wide replay ability then go play past Bethesda titles.
@zeening
@zeening 10 ай бұрын
there are mods to make them not essential... i know because i IMMEDIATELY alt tabbed out of the game to look for one upon encounting that disgusting raging C you next tuesday(sick of getting my comments deleted and silenced for 24 hrs) on Paradiso the chick who was like "look idc if those settlers have been on their way here for 200 years, we're a corporation and WE OWN this planet and even though we only have this one small resort ON THE WHOLE PLANET, they can't even land ANYWHERE ON THE PLANET unless they wanna "work" as slaves for us! ha! that'll show those morons!" and i was like ok this lady NEEDS to be annihilated IMMEDIATELY lol turned mod on, tdetect in console, blast her across the room w a hose of metal shards w the magstorm, tdetect off, continue the quest w the CEO rofl, EXTREMELY satisfying. needless to say the settlers did NOT become slaves, i helped them buy a hyperdrive and find another planet lol
@jimman-beard2167
@jimman-beard2167 10 ай бұрын
@@zeening No Man Sky needs no mods, and is better. I have vehicles to drive on planets and can drive, fly, or walk around a planet I have no load screen to fly or land on any planet. It's crazy this game came out in 2016 and had this yet Starfield a game that came out 2023... has loading screens for every transition of travel or walking through a room or anything...lol both games have mods... but I didn't install any on either and a game should be good without a community of modders. It's sad you need mods in Starfield.
@draakisback
@draakisback Жыл бұрын
Good video, you make a lot of really good points of course. As a software engineer, I know how it feels to have a legacy system that you desperately need to refactor. It can be hard to justify refactoring a system when management is pushing you forward and asking for new features. That being said, it is healthy for the development cycle of a product to bake in some time to go back and refactor large parts of the code base. A lot people, in tech and outside of it, have this perception that developing software is like developing any other product, that you can build it as you would with a product on an assembly line. This approach to software development is what we call waterfall and it has almost universally failed because software is almost always a moving target. Even if you have strict parameters for a piece of software, very rarely do you get to a point where you are completely finished writing it. You can always find better algorithms, better idioms, cleaner ways of writing things, squash bugs and more performant ways of doing things. This is an aspect of software design that is overlooked even by large and mature software teams because most of the higher ups are not software developers themselves (and even engineers sometimes don't understand this problem). I've been working in the industry for at least 20 years now and I've had to explain this so many times that I've lost count. Even in cases where I was a team lead on a project I've had to deal with this issue because its somewhat counterintuitive to go back and refactor a system that the management deems to have been "completed". Even if you have concrete evidence that the system in question is holding back future features, it's still a battle to convince everyone to go along with the refactor especially in larger teams.
@jojinamibi9196
@jojinamibi9196 11 ай бұрын
Hey thx for great info! The word thrown around the Creation Kit Engine seems to be "asset streaming" doesn't it? Do you have an idea why they can't plug in this sort of technology to stream maybe/hopefully endlessly?
@loozpl
@loozpl 10 ай бұрын
Because the entire logic of the engine is based on this. Imagine replacing the engine in a spaceship while flying in space. You have to unplug absolutely everything, put in a new "heart" and then plug in everything else and start fixing what doesn't work. @@jojinamibi9196
@Skotty64081
@Skotty64081 9 ай бұрын
You say that as if it's always true, but it's situational. Sometimes it's of value to go back and refactor, other times it's not. And waterfall didn't universally fail. It generally worked okay, it's just that agile methodologies were better.
@mythmurzin
@mythmurzin Жыл бұрын
@bellularnews you made an error, the "creation engine" is the old gambryo engine that they bought for oblivion, and have just upgraded to add graphic fidelity stuff. the reason they had to "change" the name to the creation engine is because the original version of gambryo they bought fell out of support by the creators of gambryo, and there was a deal around 2010-2012 that bethesda would buy a source code license, and re-name what they called it because it was no longer the original gambryo engine, but rather a "new" engine stemmed from gambryo with updates handled by bethesda. so its the same engine from 2003-2005 gambryo they got for oblivion, that they maintain and update to add features for their new games.
@FrantisekPicifuk
@FrantisekPicifuk 10 ай бұрын
The engine is the only reason they have a community of dedicated modders. People are used to how it works, becuase they've learned it over the years. Theres also a ton of learning material and community out there. Any engine switch would kill of unpredictable portuion of user mad content, which would be a disaster.
@somesecondaryaccount
@somesecondaryaccount 10 ай бұрын
I unsubscribed and stopped watching, and won't be watching further. Better Help has a history of preying on clients. I can't believe you don't research who you do ads for.
@Lethal-Beef
@Lethal-Beef 4 ай бұрын
You know he may not have known that and assumed they were good because he personally had a very positive and impactful change using their service. You’re ignorant
@micho510900
@micho510900 Жыл бұрын
If you worked in AAA studio you know how it works. There are usually older devs that don't like changes, so they convince managment that using existing inhouse engine will be cheaper and easier. It's usually true, but getting talent is very hard and features are lacking, cause there's no way 10 people team of engine devs can caught up with Unreal Engine or Unity. There was a great saying that using inhouse engine is like building rails while the train is running. You need something? Ask engine devs, wait like a month or two, and you can continue with your work.
@ingrudmessenger1193
@ingrudmessenger1193 Жыл бұрын
Here's the thing though with Bethesda. I really, really want them to use their inhouse engine. I want a better one, definitly, but i'd rather take their Morrowind engine than Unreal. Because that means some modders will grab the sandbox and make good content. I wouldn't download a Bethesda game these days for free if it's made in Unreal.
@Linkdarkside
@Linkdarkside Жыл бұрын
Yeah, if they used the engine of others there could be restriction on modding tools or no modding at all.
@Immudzen
@Immudzen Жыл бұрын
@@Linkdarkside Are there any Unreal engine games that are as moddable as Creation is? CD Project Red has released mod tools for their games and they are still FAR less moddable and with a smaller modding community than Bethesda games are.
@Wings012
@Wings012 Жыл бұрын
I feel like there's also a sense of pride attached. I worked for a studio with their own in-house engine and they said something along the lines like Unreal is like a really nice car. But here, we need something specialized. Our engine is like a F1 or Nascar car, it's shit for regular driving but it does that one thing very well. Maybe it's true, maybe its not but I did think our engine was kinda dogshit. As one of many 3D environment artists though, it didn't really matter much as long as it was easy to import my asset.
@lltoon
@lltoon Жыл бұрын
Strangely enough the Gamebryo engine didn't hold back Morrowind from telling a good story or having engaging gameplay mechanics. In all seriousness Starfield was surprisingly the least buggy game release from Bethesda. The only thing holding it back wad the poor design choices made by the devs. The engine had very little to do with shitty UIs, crap storytelling, the lack of things to do in outposts, or even lackluster levelling progression.
@Lorenzo_631
@Lorenzo_631 10 ай бұрын
The Creation Engine isn't holding Bethesda back but Bethesda is holding the Creation Engine back.
@oggaming7362
@oggaming7362 Жыл бұрын
When Todd claimed on stage (whatever show it was) that TES6 was a ways away from release because "The technology isn't there yet", I thought to myself, "Oh shit! They're going to make it where there are no load screens anywhere!" Because that's honestly the next step in Bethesda games. It's the only frontier they have left to conquer. So when you have No Man's Sky, and Sky Citizen without loading screens, I'm not surprised that everyone figured that Starfield would be the same way; with no load screens. At this point, if TES6 comes out with loading screens everywhere, not only will I be disappointed... for me it's a sign that Bethesda really aren't interested in pushing the envelope anymore. It's a sign that they really are happy with mediocrity, and it's not that this is unacceptable, it's simply not what we look to Bethesda for. So, I and many others will find ourselves somewhere else, not participating in the release of Bethesda games because we are too busy with other games. No hate. No drama. Just the reality of the situation.
@gs8494
@gs8494 Жыл бұрын
Howard has already said ES6 will use the Creation engine, the good is that it will feel familiar to fans and easy to mod, but for me the bad is that the engine is showing its age and its limitations, the extra year Bethesda were given by Microsoft helped a lot and I was hoping that they would also give Bethesda the choice to make a new engine or license one for ES6 but it seems not to be the case.
@ChickenJoe-tq6xd
@ChickenJoe-tq6xd Жыл бұрын
Reddit fanboys will still say this comment is a hate crime
@tenesenka
@tenesenka Жыл бұрын
It's crazy how Bellular explains a lot of behind-the-scenes technical stuff and people just ignore it. It's really unfortunate that consumers don't care to understand what is happening and where good, valid criticism should be levied and instead want to complain about illogical things that anyone who understands, knows doesn't really apply to Bethesda and Creation Engine.
@LaylaSpellwind
@LaylaSpellwind Жыл бұрын
This video is perfect. I was complaining about the constant load screens on a discord I was in when it comes to player housing. And people just didn't get it. So to see my same complaint in a bellular video is a relief. XD I'd like a space station player home. One load screen, inevitably, but you've got your home in space, easy access to storage. Have quick access to ship storage from the house storage, easy win. Solves the exhausting inventory limit problems.
@zeening
@zeening 10 ай бұрын
cheats like wemod, or console commands, or mods my friend.... i regularly walk around with 50-60k worth of weight in crap on me(mostly ammo and resources but i've got a like 1 and a half minute's worth of scrolling in my weapon tab lol, once i realized you could add legendary modifiers w console commands i made manyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy skipshot weapons), with no downsides at all other than hearing funny grunts when i fall like my characters legs are giving out and if you make the mistake of playing w vasco "REEEEEEEEEEEE u ShOuLdN'T CaRrY sO MuCh U nO!1!1!1!1!1" but otherwise.... purely benefits lol never have to sit and play the inventory game or make a hard choice between weapons or kill my OCD by leaving a single foam cup anywhere in existence, allllllllllllll loot must be picked up lol
@LaylaSpellwind
@LaylaSpellwind 10 ай бұрын
Yeah, I need to get the mod that allows achievements and mods at the same time, because that allows console commands too. I just really can't be arsed. The main questline bugged up on me and stopped working, so I literally could not progress. So I gave up and uninstalled it.
@Volthoom
@Volthoom Жыл бұрын
I'd have played a shitload more Starfield if it had more focus on quests(they CAN make good questlines as evidenced by Crimson Fleet and Vanguard stories which i've thoroughly enjoyed), faction and NPC relations, *unique* locations, world-building, et cetera. Rather than on radiant exploring with radiant planets that have radiant points of interest with radiant NPCs and radiant enemies. So, no, i don't think the engine is the core issue here, not for me, at least. General game-design approach is.
@Mirthful_Midori
@Mirthful_Midori Жыл бұрын
"So, no, i don't think the engine is the core issue here, not for me, at least. General game-design approach is." Go watch Emil Pagliarulo's 'Talks From Story' presentation if you want to see more. It's a bit long, but it does a very good job of showing why Bethesda's games are always so badly made. Everything from not following design documents to ignoring criticism. The best part is that he does it all by accident. He's their head writer and he couldn't even write a competent presentation.
@joe19912
@joe19912 11 ай бұрын
Agree, I can deal with some jank, but the writing and characters are subpar. F4 had a dozen companions and dozens of outposts all with unique quests. SF has only 4 companions and no ready-made outposts. I never built an outpost because of the high amount of resources needed, plus too many perk points required.
@Damanios
@Damanios 10 ай бұрын
The problem with Bethesda is that AAA studios are run like a business focused on quantifiable results. Instead of thinking, does 250k voice lines make the game more fun, the focus is on how to optimize the pipeline and make sure you reach optimum velocity in your sprints. It all becomes factory pipeline then. Creativity suffers. Example: making sure each companion has a unique dialogue option for each faction quest step, without ever considering if this actually adds anything.
@Fazeshyft
@Fazeshyft Жыл бұрын
I love this channel so much. Thank you, guys. You offer such a succinct and well-rounded perspective for dunces in the gaming space like me to digest.
@Runelee1
@Runelee1 Жыл бұрын
As someone who generally picks up their games years after to play with mods, I almost feel like I'm not buying a game. I'm buying an engine update with a really long winded demo. Fallout London will probably be the bigger release for me this year.
@Poldovico
@Poldovico Жыл бұрын
I'll take thousands of loading screens over a playthrough and be glad, so long as the Creation Kit exists, and the literal decades of shared knowledge around it are useful. Bethesda have had a couple hundred people figure out what a Bethesda game is over 26 years. The Bethesda modding community is made up of thousands upon thousands of people who have been doing the same together since then.
@ADMNtek
@ADMNtek Жыл бұрын
agreed. looking at the nexus Starfield has 3000 mods and that is without the modding tools. Why? because modders know creation engine. I already have a whole laundry list of things i want to try/do when the CK comes out (next year ugh). because I have been modding BGS games since FO3. if Starfield was Unreal or unity or something i wouldn't bother. would i prefer few loading screens or better hidden money yes. but i take those if i get this level of modding support.
@LilBoyHexley
@LilBoyHexley 9 ай бұрын
I think the problem I have is that in the years between Oblivion and today, the rest of the industry has very much caught up and surpassed everything Bethesda does on a technical level. Back in the day they were operating in a space where not a lot of developers were making open world games with that level of detail and continuity. But now we're in a world where basically everything that exists within a Bethesda game is something you'd expect an off-the-shelf game engine to be capable of. Fallout 76 was not doing anything cutting edge or new on a technical level. Open world games were commonplace, big games with high player count lobbies are commonplace, etc. But it was still riddled with technical problems. Starfield is their most stable game yet, but other than procgen planets, everything the game does is completely milquetoast from a tech standpoint. And other devs have done all of it better. It's like yay, it's finally stable engine after a decade of development. Say what you want about content implementation, but could none of these years been spent on developing tools and workflows for use with a more feature-complete engine with less technical debt?
@Bourinos02
@Bourinos02 Жыл бұрын
Removing all loading screens for house interiors and hiding the others with visual animations instead of a black screen would fix 99% of the immersion breaking of Starfield.
@TobiIsAGoodBoy1
@TobiIsAGoodBoy1 Жыл бұрын
the bethesda engine is a double edge sword. on one hand it does hold them back they will never reach the fidelity of a unreal engine powered game but at the same time due to the familiarity modders have with bethesda games they can make intricate mods within the first week an some times before even launch.
@Wings012
@Wings012 Жыл бұрын
If they switch to something like Unreal though, it shouldn't be too hard for modders to adapt since knowledge for a 'common' engine is out there. I play a lot of random janky indie Unity games and I find that people use the same mod tools and file extractors to do things like fan translations, cheat and whatnot. If they switch to a new original or obscure engine though, then the modders are truly back to square one.
@ravenbeast8639
@ravenbeast8639 Жыл бұрын
Some dude went from one planet to another in Starfield and it took like 8 hours in real time. So apparently you could do it with NO load screen. At least that's what it looked like. Didn't watch the whole thing to be sure. But he encountered other ships and even pirates along the way!
@river559
@river559 Жыл бұрын
If I remember correctly he wasn't able to land on it though. Ended up still having to go through the menu because his ship clipped right through it
@ravenbeast8639
@ravenbeast8639 Жыл бұрын
​@@river559 yeah of course the landing process is still done through the load screen. But you can travel from one planet to another without load screen. Which means the distances from one planet to another is not just measured on the map. So the space in game is not as fake as some people claim. Planets are real size. You can't simply walk around them in a few hours or even days. I saw some dude complaining about the planets being seemingly endless!!!! Which is the most moronic thing I ever heard. Even worse than the notion of landing on gas giants.
@3dmaster205
@3dmaster205 9 ай бұрын
I don't think the issue with the Creation Engine is what modules are added or not added, the problem is that things are only ever added, as modules. There's a blob of module there, another one there, it produces a Frankenstein monster of a game engine. There are literally bugs in the engine today, that show up in ever game they release, that were there in Morrowind. The community patch for the games that fixes these bugs, is largely copy and paste from the previous games community patch; it's nuts. What happens is that the old core has no idea what to do first; it just randomly does something. A whole bunch of new hardware options and rendering techniques, and the engine just randomly tell them to go do something. It tells something to go do something it wouldn't need for multiple microseconds yet, and won't tell something else to prepare something until after that is done, while another module needs that immediately. This is how you get a game, that AT BEST, and I'm being very generous, at points looks as good as the unupgraded 8-year-old The Witcher 3, and runs worse than a modern fully path-traced title running on substandard ray tracing hardware. This is why other engines regularly get full rebuilt-from-the-ground-up overhauls; all the techniques and hardware gets built into the core itself, so the core knows how to best utilities all the new things, and in what order, to keep the amount of CPU and GPU cycles you are idling down to a minimum. Bethesda either needs to start using an entirely different engine, or hire dedicated engine developers that fully overhaul their engine, into an actual Creation Engine 2 rather than just in name only. And this is not just about the graphics; and making a city a seamless part of the world rather than an new area being loads; this is also about the gameplay, quests, and quest design. Look The Witcher 3; every town has (side) quests, contracts, and all of those side quests and contracts play out like their own mini-RPG, but not only are they that, most of them tie in to other quests and the main quests, and decisions you make their impact the larger quests, even on the other side of the world. I don't think the Creation Engine as it is now, is capable of doing this.
@UlfhednarAxe
@UlfhednarAxe 9 ай бұрын
Bethesda pre release: it’s our most ambitious project Bethesda post release: ya maybe not everyone was on board with it
@OhNoJoshEdits
@OhNoJoshEdits Жыл бұрын
I can’t speak for everyone, but I’ve had very little issues with Starfield. I find it to be surprisingly polished. Also Star Citizen is *_absolutely not_* the game to compare Starfield to, it’s an absurd comparison. Star Citizen has over $600 million in budget and hasn’t even finished.
@XrentonX17
@XrentonX17 Жыл бұрын
The engine is definitely aging badly now but the major issue is the writing team right now
@danielsaines602
@danielsaines602 Жыл бұрын
What writing team? Isn't there just a hat in the break room that people throw paragraph long story ideas in? I'm not even kidding, I'm pretty sure Todd said that's how it worked for fallout 4. But I can't find the quote now.
@FirebreathXIII
@FirebreathXIII 11 ай бұрын
I mostly agree with you; I felt like there were way too many loading screens no matter what I did in Starfield. I think the most egregious one was the small areas in towns that you'd open a door and you'd have a loading screen instead of an animation of your character going through that door. We had the same loading screen going into houses in Skyrim. In Fallout 4... And after seeing games like Rift Apart where things are loaded dynamically and removed a lot of those loading screens, everyone was like "Man, wouldn't it be awesome if we didn't have to stop and load a HOUSE?". And there was this expectation that Starfield, as a "next-gen title", would have such technical feature. But it didn't. Even the menu is anti-immersion; fallout has the pip-boy that is brought up and becomes your menu. It's adding to the immersion. And in Starfield, we're given a watch... but it's just a small part of the HUD. Imagine bringing it up, not unlike a pip-boy, and using the same interface as the actual Constellation Edition watch, but in the game to do your things? Or connecting your watch to your PC and being able to talk with Starfield on it..? But instead, we have a pop-up menu, not unlike Skyrim... This gives the impression that the overall game design is stuck in 2011. That Bethesda hasn't learned, changed or evolved in the last 10+ years. They don't want to change their tools because "it just works"; I mean, great, you give us a lot of content... but so much of it is recycled, or basic fetch quests, or a single map with 6 dungeons has realistically 3 iterations of the same dungeon/POI... How many times have I done the same mining shaft? Abandoned UC listening post (that's not really abandoned, honestly)? Or science station/outpost? Ultimately, we genuinely need more variety because the veneer or content is only as good as the diversity of it... and since the main quest is one long fetch quest... but then, you have the UC faction quest which is an Alien-esque storyline. Or the Freestar Collective being a Firefly whodunit. Or the Ryujin one being a cyberpunk take... but everything else is fairly milquetoast; fetch/delivery quests, assassination quests and... that's about it. Al the good stuff is really, really good... but there's little of it. And the rest of the game is extremely repetitive. And as far as exploration not being a big deal... Then why did Todd and his marketing gang push the 1,000 planets narrative, and how you can spend thousands of hours exploring... if exploration isn't supposed to be a big deal? Make 12 planets very detailed instead of 1,000 that have nothing. Simple as that. People would've been far happier that way, I'm sure. Ultimately, the tech debt in the Creation Engine 2.0 shows its cracks more than ever because we've seen what more "modern systems" can do. And touting Starfield as a "next-gen title", but using a lot of legacy systems because "they just work", or they don't provide "player-facing content"... I disagree. The facial animations are very much player-facing, yet... they are still fallout 4-esque. 4 loading screens with a small animation instead of location streaming (à la Rift Apart) to get anywhere is 2011, not "next-gen". Popping a menu instead of using an in-game prop is something that even Fallout didn't do... And they could have done it with Starfield. And it keeps going... Now, do I say that Starfield is a bad game? Heck no. I have nearly 200 hours on it, and plan on playing more. But at the same time, I can recognize the cracks and putty filling those cracks. And it's painful to see the game marketed as a "Next-gen" when we're still stuck with systems that are 10+ years old. Otherwise, what's the meaning of "next gen" in this case? The graphics and nothing else? Or is it an experience? At the end of the day, it is a painfully Bethesda game, for better or worse. And the Creation Engine needs some major TLC on its supporting modules, not just player-facing. And it translates into less variety in dungeons/POIs, because I guess the game can't support over 8 different types of dungeons/POI templates, maybe. It all boils down to limitations. And without knowing more about those technical limitations, we are forced to judge what we see in front of us: a good-if-repetitive-and-barren narrative-driven game, with live service elements without being live-service (like the skills grind).
@tyler3201
@tyler3201 9 ай бұрын
And this point make a video.
@nick15684
@nick15684 9 ай бұрын
It's not holding them back, their priorities are holding them back. It's their engine, they have all the source code, and they could refactor everything from the ground up if they wanted to. They could develop the engine to have modern asset streaming as we see in games like Spider-Man 2, and they could use DirectStorage to get near-instantaneous load screens in a manner just like Spider-Man 2. They know this but have chosen not to, probably seeing it as unnecessary. Yeah, it would be a lot of work, but they could if they really wanted to. Their engine was initially designed around loading screens because when they first developed it back in the Xbox 360 days, load screens were a necessity of the hardware limitations (slow HDD, slow disk reading, very limited RAM, etc). Not so anymore. We have NVME SSDs that can read several gigabytes per second, and we don't need to stream data from disk anymore. They could've created a space game that was near-seamless.
@POVgames
@POVgames Жыл бұрын
As someone who’s been using the creation engine since 2010 I can assure you starfield could have just been a fallout 4 mod. There’s absolutely nothing that couldn’t have been done in fallout 4 that’s in starfield. Your “spaceship” can’t even move and you can see this is you ‘tfc’ in the space cell.
@TsunamiWombat
@TsunamiWombat Жыл бұрын
Been two weeks, time for all the articles and videos about how Starfield actually wasn't great after all to come out now that money is safely in all the pockets of the stakeholders. I'm not accusing Bellular here of anything (because you can see his video on it and even it's title suggests it's 'OK'), but you see this a lot. People will LOVE games for the first two weeks and then the honeymoon ends and oh actually this isn't very good - but it's too late because the studio already has all of your money. Press is not entirely to blame for this because publishers and studios will do their damnest to conceal reality from them up to the very last minute. Just look back on the launch of Cyberpunk 2077. Now fill your soul with the knowledge that was CDPR's most successful game and year ever in the history of their company and they made millions even while the whole of the internet was lighting them up. Pre-order culture and obfuscation makes it impossible to push back on studio's for flops unless they do it repeatedly over a long series of time, and even then they'll have pyscho fans who worship the company and the product as their religion and have otherwise sensible and reasonable voices saying "b-but it's fun" (looking at Destiny 2 and SkillUp)
@fus132
@fus132 Жыл бұрын
Ironically proving what Mark Kern was right in the end, lol.
@nemesis7884
@nemesis7884 Жыл бұрын
i rather have the jankiness if i also get the interactability and the moddability
@Katie-hb8iq
@Katie-hb8iq Жыл бұрын
I don't think you can compare the Creation Engine to other games. It's a lot easier to make aspects of your game better if you have less breath to focus on and can just pick a few things and excel at them. The breath of a Bethesda RPG pretty much necessitates that not everything can be top tier. It's the combination of elements that makes it great - not the individual elements. If they were to start focusing on top-tier facial animations and invest all of their time into it, so many other elements would be more shallow or just cut from the game entirely. Not to mention, content would probably be produced at a much slower pace without all of Bethesda's tooling. There are definitely tradeoffs, whether you know about game engines or not. There are plenty of examples of games that moved off to a better looking engine only for depth and features to be sacrificed in the process. It happened at Bioware 2 TIMES with Dragon Age and Mass Effect. Final Fantasy XIII is another one. Then there's Resident Evil 6. There are loads of other examples. People seem to think changing to a prettier engine is a net benefit always when it has historically not been the case.
@lamebubblesflysohigh
@lamebubblesflysohigh 11 ай бұрын
They can keep loading screen when entering the town in TES VI to save some computational power BUT it must be THE ONLY loading screen. Once the player goes through that, every interiors of buildings must and should be already there without more loading screens.
@SuperTyrannical1
@SuperTyrannical1 Жыл бұрын
Amazon didnt get pissy about Star Citizen. Crytek got pissed that they moved to Lumberyard and tried to sue them.
@ronsandahl274
@ronsandahl274 Жыл бұрын
Bethesda's problem with their Creation Engine is much the same as what is at the heart of their other problems - they have a lot of popular games but Todd Howard (or perhaps the evil Zenimax) doesn't want to increase the company size to realistically meet the demand for their games. You can see this looking at Elder Scrolls: Morrowind (ES3) 2001/ Oblivion (ES4) 2006/ Skyrim (ES5) 2011. The next Elder Scrolls, ES6, is expected sometime MAYBE in 2028 - 17 years after the massively popular Skyrim. Why not immediately start work on the next Elder Scrolls? Because Todd needs to pull those people off to work on Fallout. Look at Fallout: Fallout 3 2008/ Fallout 4 2015. Fallout 5 isn't even targeted, but estimates are 2035 - 20 years after the massively popular Fallout 4. So why is this? Because Todd needs to pull those people off to work on Starfield. To keep Bethesda the manageable group that Todd wants he keeps pulling staff out of projects when they are complete or near complete to work on other unrelated projects, rather than having Fallout experts immediately start on the next Fallout game. This likely also explains the high turnover that Bethesda has been having as well. Why do I bring this up? Because this is what has happened with the Creation Engine. Rather than have a team whose full-time job is working on, developing and advancing the Creation Engine, what has actually been happening is that when Bethesda starts a new game only then do they tinker with the last Creation Engine, meaning that not very much changes from engine to engine. The only difference with Starfield is that they decided to call it Creation Engine 2.0, which it is not. You could generously call it Creation Engine 1.5, but it is so close to the Fallout 4 Creation Engine that the Fallout 4 console codes still work in Starfield.
@serred9452
@serred9452 Жыл бұрын
Depends on how much you love modding your game. Bethesda community is definitely on another level.
@light819
@light819 Жыл бұрын
the thing is its gone from modding for fun to modding to make the games actually run well and be closer to modern standards
@spazco8669
@spazco8669 Жыл бұрын
@@light819 yup, there's a ton of fixes out already.
@TheTerk
@TheTerk 10 ай бұрын
I posted this to Twitter once and you prove my point. If starfield had filler videos between "loading screens", no one would care
@Person01234
@Person01234 9 ай бұрын
I don't cry engine at every problem. For me a dead giveaway that the engine is a problem is when you see the same bugs or issues popping up again and again over a series of games made with it. I usually see this as a sign that the engine has something fundamentally wrong with it and has become unmanagable to where those flaws can't be fixed and have to be patched out every time they pop up on a game by game basis. It doesn't immediately mean the engine is bad if it has a few bugs, but if there are a whole lot of major bugs and limitations that cant be fixed and keep reoccurring game after game it usually does indicate that the engine itself is being held together with decades of metaphorical duct tape and prayers and nobody really knows the code well enough any more to actually do anything about it.
@terrykrugii5652
@terrykrugii5652 Жыл бұрын
Every time I get a look at Starfield, I am struck by the thought of "Man, NMS did it better didn't they?" The only exception being starship creation, and that is for the obvious reasons. Moreover, I don't think NMS is or ever WAS going to leave that feature just. Untouched. I think Hello Games absolutely wants to make a starship creator. They just got a backlog of so many other things to incorporate that it just doesn't make sense to do it now
@adityan3208
@adityan3208 Жыл бұрын
No man sky also had a bad launch though. It's better now. Although It's hard to believe Bethesda will improve their game though
@terrykrugii5652
@terrykrugii5652 Жыл бұрын
@@adityan3208 oh trust me, I remember the bad launch. Probably the first time I really got burned on a game
@thefilmdirector1
@thefilmdirector1 Жыл бұрын
@@terrykrugii5652 i really liked NMS 1.0- the game is way better now sure, but man even at launch it was such a relaxing turn your brain off, get stoned and put a podcast kinda game.
@terrykrugii5652
@terrykrugii5652 Жыл бұрын
@@thefilmdirector1 eh. I didn't like it so much, everything was too same-y. How it is now is far better. But I suppose I can see the appeal
@adityan3208
@adityan3208 Жыл бұрын
@@thefilmdirector1 idk bro, if you need to get yourself high and play a podcast at the same time for having a chill time playing a game, It doesn't really say much about it, does it?
@sharlockshacolmes9381
@sharlockshacolmes9381 Жыл бұрын
If the engine wasn't completely shit to begin with and then more than 20 years old and then poorly optimised maybe you could consider argumenting that no it is not holding them back. But then again maybe the Sahara desert isn't a desert it just lacks water
@Deliveredmean42
@Deliveredmean42 Жыл бұрын
I say it's always the people, and not the tools that makes the problem. If they had more talented people they could easily rewrite the engine to be more seamless instead of cell based during those 5-7 years of development but sadly they don't.
@bozzwick
@bozzwick Жыл бұрын
It was “okay” 12 years ago with skyrim, but it felt feels very stale today competitively. Even if they decided to go the way of Overwatch by updating a few things and slapping a “2” on the end of it.
@spazco8669
@spazco8669 Жыл бұрын
i would argue it's not the engine holding them back. Modders have proven what the engine can do. Vanilla bethesda games a rubbish because of bethesda not the engine.
@sharlockshacolmes9381
@sharlockshacolmes9381 Жыл бұрын
@@spazco8669 people made a computer in Minecraft that can run DOOM , just because are both super dedicated and talented and can achieve greatness doesn't mean that what their working with is garbage taped together. Now imagine what could these modders do if the games were on an actual stable engine
@judgedrekk2981
@judgedrekk2981 Жыл бұрын
lolz truth! and the Sahara is a desert and lacks water lolz
@0FFICERPROBLEM
@0FFICERPROBLEM Жыл бұрын
The engine+toolbox of BGS is the hugely important to keep. I wish more games were made with it, we got only New Vegas. It facilitates dynamism, interaction, simulation, npc and object persistence etc. . And most importantly: vibrant unmatched modding scenes for AAA games, with modders out there who have tremendous experience, and it's easy for new people to get into. It would be a tremendous loss for our industry if we stopped getting these games, e.g. they start making Unreal games (see: The Outer Worlds)
@rclaws3230
@rclaws3230 Жыл бұрын
Modders are idiots doing unpaid work to keep Bethesda raking in the millions for decades without having to lift a finger. Good work.
@0FFICERPROBLEM
@0FFICERPROBLEM Жыл бұрын
@@rclaws3230 If passion = idiocy to you, then I feel sorry for you. Modding is not forced labour, and no one can be exploited, unlike actual professional game dev at a lot of studios.
@Mr.Sequiro
@Mr.Sequiro Жыл бұрын
I remember complaints of their engine being outdated and needing to change when Fallout 4 came out. AngryJoe in that FO4 review years ago, even ranted about how they needed to stop trying to keep milking that engine as its cracks and age were definitely showing. Yet here we are in 2023 with that same tired engine with once again more coats of paint slopped on it.
@istrumguitars
@istrumguitars 10 ай бұрын
Still makes me wonder how it took Bethesda EIGHT YEARS to release a game built in their own proprietary engine with almost identical gameplay mechanics to their other titles.
@reeven1721
@reeven1721 Жыл бұрын
Repeat after me because we have to repeat it every few years of Bethesda's major release cycle: the record override based architecture of the Creation Engine is AWESOME for modding and therefore that record based heart of the engine ain't going anywhere if we want to preserve the brand's modding capabilities as we know them; 2) Bethesda's open world games core fan base does not care about "Bethesda jank" or even cutting edge graphics out of the box because we can mod both. See the recent Community Shaders developments in Skyrim for proof. Everything wrong with Starfield right now - milquetoast choices and consequences in quests, meh companions, meh skill and leveling system, half-baked space travel mechanics, half-baked inventory management, half-baked outpost integration into core gameplay loops - is wrong in terms of game design decisions, not engine problems.
@TheRealCaptainLavender
@TheRealCaptainLavender Жыл бұрын
🤡🤡🤡
@tronam
@tronam Жыл бұрын
I don’t think you’re remembering Skyrim very clearly. There were loading screens for every city, shop, cave or building interior, no matter how small. Yes, it’s videogamey, but that’s what it is… a video game. We’ve been suspending our disbelief for decades with far less. 😉
@DaRealPielover1987
@DaRealPielover1987 Жыл бұрын
It's kind of weird to think of Larian as Indie. They have over 400 employees. I feel we need to have some sort of middle ground or subdivide Indie studios more. The fact that your game/team and Larian Studios are considered in the same bracket is messed up.
@OmegaZyion
@OmegaZyion Жыл бұрын
I think most people consider Larian an indie still because it wasn't long ago that they were on the verge of bankruptcy to the point where they had to beg for money on crowd funding websites to make the Divinity Original Sins games. Over the course of a single decade they've gone from being an actual indie studio to the cusp of a triple A studio.
@Wings012
@Wings012 Жыл бұрын
If we're going to be pedantic over the definition of indie - technically all it means is independent. They own themselves. It doesn't mean small. Indies tend to be small but aren't always. The real defining feature is that they own themselves and don't have to answer to corporate overlords and shareholders, except maybe on a project to project basis. Technically Valve is an "indie".
@urazz7739
@urazz7739 Жыл бұрын
@@Wings012 I'd say Larian is an independent studio in that they are still independent and don't have to answer to a publisher or stockholders. But I will say I think Larian is pretty much at the level of quality of content we expect Triple A studios to be at but most fail to reach right now due to greed and spending too much money on other things (like advertising).
@Wings012
@Wings012 Жыл бұрын
@@urazz7739 I don't disagree with that assessment, but when it comes to mincing words over labels... what's truly important? I think I enjoy indies because of their freedom, not because of their lack of budget necessarily even if the limitations does give birth to creativity. Also is the term AAA even a badge of honour or a label of praise anymore? Seems like these days its looked at with disdain. Studios like Larian still have that 'indie' spirit even at their scale. You saw the whole AAA industry go up in arms over the success of BG3. It's the exact sorta product AAA isn't capable of creating. Ninja Theory did coin the term "independent AAA" so maybe we can just use that for games like BG3. If the label AAA is means quality for you. I personally don't really use the term AAA to mean 'big and good', nor do I use the term indie to imply 'small and cheap'.
@KimAlmighty1
@KimAlmighty1 Жыл бұрын
they did say that they saw Skyrim become a forever game and that wasnt on purpose and they wanted to make Starfield a forever game right away on purpose but because of the game design and engine they pretty much failed horribly ..
@elmo1639
@elmo1639 9 ай бұрын
One of the content creators I subscribe to said something that I couldn't argue with. That was "the greatest luxury gamers will ever have is being able to save the game whenever you want". I won't pretend to know anything about making games but, it would be nice to keep that aspect about fallout.
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