Let's talk about gender recognition and the law in Ireland

[@mikeyk212]

I'm glad this important topic is being discussed. I was at the local mart last week and they talked of little else. No doubt the Irish Government will adopt the woke approach to this issue as they do with all other issues. Result , the farcical situation in Strurgeon's Scotland of convicted rapists deciding to identify as a woman in order to be accommodated in a women's prison. Terry talks about a democracy, I don't recall voting on any of these issues. I'm sure the Scottish people if asked would want rapists to spend their sentence in a men's prison.

[@mikeyk212]

@mikemcgrath-bryan2765 Not really. It's fact. The outrage in the UK media forced Strurgeon to back down. Of course you won't get that in Ireland where you have single view woke media.

[@jacquikk181]

Yes! it needs debate. Not the issue of recognition as has already been decided by law but the whole issues surrounding the transition process. There has been several rapes by men in the process having gained lawful access to female facilities. On the other hand there are high instances of sexual violence towards transgender people.

[@killbotone6210]

Came into being in 2015, having been debated and created since 2007 and the Lydia Foy Judgement. I welcome anybody here saying it was brought in quickly, never heard any debate, or even hadn't heard about its existence. Because saying such a thing just proves that the the Transgender "issue" was never an issue until certain groups in the UK and US decided it was.

[@titopuente6149]

A summary judgement that sets a precedent does not become Part of our constitution. It merely serves as a measuring stick and reference point for future legal cases if they are brought to court. Big difference.

[@titopuente6149]

@Mike McGrath-Bryan what a waste of time reading that reply.

[@titopuente6149]

@Mike McGrath-Bryan a second wasted comment.

[@titopuente6149]

@Mike McGrath-Bryan nope. I'm all for a more egalitarian society but that's not what this is about. It's about silencing dissent and suppressing free speech. How is the situation with Enoch burke about giving people more rights? It's trampling on his and every other public service employees right to have religious beliefs, personal choice and dignity in the workplace by forcing him to give into compelled speech dictates.

[@titopuente6149]

@Mike McGrath-Bryan ah yes an excellently reasoned arguement yet again. Top class discourse. 🙏💪👏

[@blissfulservant4189]

Only adults should make such decision. Children should be children. Can a child say I consent to sexual intercourse, no it is wrong and against the law. Well the same should apply for a child when it comes to their gender until they reach adult to make informed choice.

[@galdrack5402]

The only logical conclusion would be to use They/Them until they reach adult age then.

[@Garadice33]

Terry. To deny debate is not democracy. Your referencing the morality police in Iran is scaremongering and denying peoples freedom to believe in a religious set of rules is just as wrong as denying people the write to self determine their gender designation. Just because a law or legislation is in place doesn't make it acceptable to everyone. A law can always be changed or deleted altogether. Especially if it is not fit for purpose as i suspect this one is. There are a lot of instances in Irish Law where clarity is lacking usually because the law is poorly written. Your comments and the actions of the high court Judges in Mr Burkes case paint 'the law' in a very dim light.

[@commisarwinter]

I can’t believe I never even heard of this legislation it makes me wonder what else have I missed out on!!. I don’t honestly remember any debates or political wrangling over this and yet here it is!!!!

[@killbotone6210]

It began in 2002 with the Lydia Fotly case. I distinctly remember the government trying to come up with some policy in 2011 and failing. It was talked about, debated, edited, from 2007-2015 when it was finally enacted.

[@killbotone6210]

@Satnav Can you define what a " cultural discussion" is with a citation please? Thanks.

[@feargach2107]

@Mike McGrath-Bryan Everyone in the Dáil Bar, Montrose and Doheny & Nesbitts knew about it. The rest don't count.

[@hubertmenschubermensch2985]

Not on Enochs side here.. But the logic regarding a democracy/theocracy is far off the mark. Were there laws prohibiting gay marriage and abortion in our statues? - Yes. Does that mean they weren't up for debate - No, two movements did debate them and had them overturned by popular vote... kind of a core principle of democracy, not undemocratic at all.

[@HH-hd3gs]

Roe v Wade too.

[@DerekMolloy-o6w]

Well said Gerry excellent explanation...keep up the good work.

[@chriser555]

People can't seem to distinguish between gender dysphoria and all this pronoun and 40 genders crap. They are 2 separate things. I'm agnostic. You don't have to be a religious person to find all this pronoun stuff ridiculous.

[@chriser555]

@Mike McGrath-Bryan Go away, Mike. You've already demonstrated that you are not open to reasonable debate in our last exchange. Also, why ask me a question if you've muted? Don't think you can do that on KZbin.

[@chriser555]

@Mike McGrath-Bryan You haven't muted me then? Constant gaslighting and strawmaning isn't a debate, Mike. And those two things are all you have to offer.

[@chriser555]

@@satnav12345 Cool, didn't know that 👍

[@Garadice33]

@Mike McGrath-Bryanits ironic that you are actually doing the transgender community a very great disservice by being on here.

[@Garadice33]

@Mike McGrath-Bryan oh you are back. Damn thought I had cancelled you.

[@subsoil007]

They can pass whatever laws they want but if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck.. It is a duck and no certificate is going to tell that duck he is a dog.

[@eltinmccarthy2469]

From an Employment situation Enoch did received medical training or protocol by the school on how to deal with this situation. The school did not consider the conflict of ethics when they engaged Enoch as a teacher. The law maybe on the statue books but the school had a duty to inform the staff of the changes.

[@FlySabre2]

Time will judge pro-trans activists and politicians (and solicitors) insane.

[@Prometheus_43]

Just so you, time is completely indifferent to the musings of one species of animal, on one rocky planet, orbiting one ordinary star, located in one spiral arm of one galaxy in an ocean of galaxies in so far as we can tell one universe. One hopes that that helps one! You're welcome!

[@PaddyMcCarthy2.1]

Hi Terry, I get what you are saying. But just a few points. As you well know, although Roe v Wade, a landmark case, was originally ruled on by the US supreme court, that women had a right to abortion,.you will also know that on June 24, 2022, nearly 30 years later, the US Supreme court over-ruled the original 1973 decision. I know the issue you are discussing is around gender recognition and I'm talking about abortion, but the gender recognition law is only 10 years old, and just like in America, the debate was still raging on some 30 years later as the 2022 case shows. We also were opposed to abortion, until people were shocked by the Halapanaver case, and so the law was changed. i.e. the law as you will know can change, has anyone brought a constitutional challenge to the gender recognition Act 2015? I myself would agree with a lot of what the commenters you point out in your video says for example. As for Enoch Burke, everyone knows that his case has to go to the Supreme Court eventually, in which case the Gender recognition Act 2015 may have to be scraped.

[@ihc909]

A query please Terry, a person, for instance, a man gets a gender recognition certificate recognising him legally to be a woman. The person changes their birth cert, passport, driving licence etc. This person now wants to join in womens amateur sports competitions , what is the persons position in relation to 1) boxing or other full contact martial sports including Rugby 2)GAA or similar semi-contact sports 3) swimming/cycling or other non-contact sports. Is there legal requirement on the various sports governing bodies requiring them to allow this person to join and compete? Prima facie, it appears that governing bodies would have to allow this person to compete. It would appear to me that the legislation affirms this person as a bonafide female and not as a transperson/transwoman etc. The sports bodies I feel would be risking litigation if they refused a bonafide and legally binding woman from taking part. Would a lady competitor (either fearing injury or just plain discriminatory) risk litigation from this person if she refused to compete with them? Is there any onus on the person to proclaim that their original birth certificate declared them to born a male if they wished to , for instance, box in a female competition? I would be very interested in your expertise on some of these legal minefields/sunny uplands. Thanks and incidentally, subscription added.👍

[@ihc909]

Any chance of a comment or reply?

[@ihc909]

Anything?

[@dermotporeilly1850]

Where in the legislation is the pro ion to call a person “them or they”? Surely the legislation only refers to “male or female” ? In my opinion the Judge in this case is wrong in law, he is morally wrong. Surely this legislation is unconstitutional ? I would be very interested in legal opinions to support Our Constitution.

[@Prometheus_43]

Very informative, thanks Terry!

[@liammacaodha4783]

We can't debate these things forever like the Brits and yanks want to. Decide, implement, run the country. That's leadership and that's why the Irish have their own country. It was the brits who debated for 800 yrs, we already decided what the majority of the Irish needed. Freedom! Buíochas le Dia. 🙏

[@boradley601]

Thanks Terry, never knew about legislative status.

[@liammacaodha4783]

Good reminder for those who need it. 😊 Believe whatever you want but you will live under the rule of law as decided by the majority of the people.

[@anneoconnor5907]

Except there was no ‘debate’. The GRA was entirely under most people’s radar.

[@GerardFee-f1v]

What age does the person need to be before this 2015 law is valid? What would a teenager know !

[@AdrianColley]

It's similar to the state of public understanding of gay rights 40 years ago. Lots of people back then thought it was a "lifestyle choice", and now almost everyone understands that gay people are born like that. We're in the same state with trans rights today.

[@terrygorry]

I can remember clearly when being gay was a crime

[@andrewtongue7084]

There it is, in black & white. For those hell bent on mounting their high horse of indignation, pay heed - which does not mean that you should agree with such a statute - but you need to understand the Statute that has been laid down; &, if it should bother you further, then campaign to have it rescinded.....

[@terrygorry]

That's it, that's how a democracy works. Theocracy instead? No thanks from me, anyway

[@andrewtongue7084]

Indeed so, Terry....

[@ihc909]

​​@@terrygorry it's not democracy, it's an executive decision made by government. Democracy would be if it was put to a referendum. That's just basic knowledge not even legalese.

[@Dave-pk4fs]

In what way is the debate over, the GRA act doesn't cover children under 16 and the law requires regular review. If a child can't change their legal gender status then a "trans" kid doesn't exist in Irish law. The Equal status act still hasn't been amended beyond stating that the gender ground only includes male or female, and the current recommendations for changes to the GRA Act include abolishing a minimum age for a person to apply for a GRC....It is all up for debate in a democracy and will continue to be so. Why should a teacher be compelled to speak based on a fictional idea that an Irish child under 16 can change their legal gender status, this is nothing to do with the Iranian police and living in a theocracy, the scope of the GRA doesn't cover children under 16 and laws can change in a democracy, the DEBATE is not over!!!

[@bernardwalsh9587]

With the greatest respect I do get the point. Acting requires thinking and the negative stereotyping of people of faith helps no one. JP II or the late Pope Benedict preached about the value of Faith and Reason. This is far far away from the Religious Fundamentalism that you refer to. My friend dialogue and reason is the real way forward. Regards B. Walsh

[@DublinLotfi]

@terrygorrysolicitor - From a legal perspective, are the protections of the law identical for non-binary people? i.e. those who don't identfy as either gender or both?

[@Liam25025]

As someone who identifies as a toaster I was wondering the same thing.

[@galdrack5402]

"Either" is incorrect here, it's a spectrum hence yes it does cover non-binary individuals.

[@DublinLotfi]

@@galdrack5402 there is no legal recognition for non binary people specifically in the law in UK or Ireland. The gender recognition act is written in binary terms. There is however that one case in England where the claimant had began 'part of a process of transition', but that is covered by the gender reassignment protected characteristic in the equality act. So at this point, non-binary specifically has no legal protection..

[@DublinLotfi]

@Mike McGrath-Bryan I don't know how you arrived at that conclusion Mike. It started with a legitimate question from myself to Terry Gorry on a finer point of the Law. Terry had said that there was no doubt about the legal position in the gender recognition act, but I was in doubt as the status of non-binary within the context of the law is not clear at the moment. I have researched the topic and found that in the uk, the house of commons womens and equalities commitee launched an inquiry to reform the gender recognition act, having received a large volumn of evidance calling for such reform. The UK government responded on 24/03/23 that 'no changes to the GRA are needed' in a published report you can find online. The current UK law only legally recognises male and female sexes. However, there is a case in the UK, Taylor vs Jaguar Landrover, where it was found that a non-binary person could fall under the gender reasignment protected characteristic of the Equality Act 2010. This is because they are considered to have 'undergone part of a process of transition, or proposed to do so''. The position is Ireland is not so clear. Our equality act does not have a 'gender reasignment characteristic'. However, if one has transitioned they can then simply claim discrimination on the gender ground that already exists. But that leaves the question, what is the legal status of non-binary people in Ireland? There is no legal recognition in either the equality act or the gender recognition act. I don't believe there is any case law at this point. So, perhaps now you can understand the relevance of the original question I asked Terry and it's nuance. This isn't about anything other than understanding the law. This is a legally focused KZbin Channel and it is reasonable for subscribers to ask questions relating to the law, and nobody has any legitimate moral rationale to chastise them for doing so.

[@autumn4142]

Thank you Terry, appreciate the straightforward take. Some folk seem to have missed the boat on this one, and are grumpy they don’t get to impose their ideas (or ridicule) on the rest of us.

[@martinlanders6135]

We’ll explained as always Terry!

[@pedropadel141]

Thanks for sharing this video. Keep voting. Our democracy is a credit to our society. Sorry that you will get some nasty comments on this as you did on the previous videos related to the Wilson Vs Burke employment dispute.

[@bernardwalsh9587]

Thx for the videos. The rule of law will tell us what to think! I find this simply ironic, we compare and denigrate religious teaching to the "morality police of Iran" yet we miss the point that it has simply moved to "thought" police of Ireland. Again the law is there and the majority agreed to it but not unlike mother and baby homes of the past where the wider society agreed to them as well and now cry foul.

[@terrygorry]

No, you miss the point completely. The law will not tell you how to think. You can think any way you like. But it will set parameters on how you act. Thankfully. Because the rest of us have had enough of religious fundamentalism and fanaticism.👍

[@ihc909]

I think you miss the point, by a mile​@@terrygorry

[@phelanm9]

Well done Terry, thanks for that, I only looked @it from the employment perspective also. Live & let live, life is short.

[@svalefelt]

I have not this in depth, but as far as I far as I understand, is not one of the problem the "non-binary" pronoun, and as far as I can see, the "Gender Recognition Act 2015" is not taking that in account. In part 3, 18(1) it even says: "Where a gender recognition certificate is issued to a person the person’s gender shall from the date of that issue become for all purposes the preferred gender so that if the preferred gender is the male gender the person’s sex becomes that of a man, and if it is the female gender the person’s sex becomes that of a woman." No mentioning of any other genders in the text, as far as I can see. I am not saying that Burke would have used the the correct pronoun anyway, but for me, transgender from "he" to "she" and "she" to "he" is easier to digest than the singular "they".

[@stephengurney1311]

It's rather ironic that at the same time as this video was posted the SNP are facing a serious challenge to the gender recognition act they have pushed through Holyrood. The first minister has been caught on the horns of a dilemma and cannot answer whether or not a rapist who identifies as a woman actually is a woman. Under the law that Sturgeon is seeking to get enacted he would be recognised as a woman and treated as such which in his case would mean being sent to a women's prison where he would be a serious threat to the other inmates. The point is that just because a law is passed by a democratically elected parliament it is not necessarily a good and just law. Enoch Burke and most Christians, and many people of other persuasions, believe that gender is inseparable from biological sex and thus the law that recognises change of gender can only do harm. Anyway, though we disagree I thank you for your videos.

[@pedropadel141]

How do you know most Christians believe that? Maybe the Church of England are out of step?

[@stephengurney1311]

@@pedropadel141 To be honest I don't know that, I can only hope that it is the case. However, Christians are called to follow Christ who taught the distinction between male and female established at creation. Transgender ideology ultimately destroys that distinction by saying that male can become female and vice versa. If the Church of England is out of step with the rest of the church, so be it, the most important thing for the Church is to follow Christ.

[@pedropadel141]

@@stephengurney1311 this is from CoE guidance. “The Church of England welcomes and encourages the unconditional affirmation of trans people, equally with all people, within the body of Christ, and rejoices in the diversity of that body into which all Christians have been baptized by one Spirit,” the guidance emphasises. "Unconditional affirmation" It would seem there are different views within the Christian community. But then, some Christian faithful presumably would like to see the Marriage Act repealed along with The Gender Recognition Act.

[@christophermccartney2269]

Really fair point, when the will of the people through protest and opposition shows signs of overthrowing so called law and order it is then that the elites within the system begin to scale things back due to their fear of losing their grip on the status quo. This is more of a game than anything else, 'they' are seeing how far 'they' can push the spirit of the populace towards breaking point.

[@nityanandapillai8524]

@mike_mcgb I hate to break this to you, pal, but you look like an IE disinformer.

[@rich8860]

Does that mean speech can be enforced, Does it mean by-law you have to use somebody's pronouns

[@terrygorry]

A person has the right to choose their gender. That is the law of the land

[@SK-yb7bx]

Let's not! There is no such thing. What a load of rubbish.

[@ChPol-f2z]

Don't see much difference between Ireland and Russia and iran any more we have no say democracy in name only when will i

[@terrygorry]

Yes, Dublin very like Teheran😏

[@mackymccallum8652]

Good explanation. And no, I don't want to live in a theocratic society, the like of which Enoch Burke and his family envisions. That was old Ireland.

[@nityanandapillai8524]

@mike_mcgb Your contempt of the old paths will come back around to bite you. In other words, you will live to regret it if you aren't brain-dead.

[@bilboabbans]

Again excellent summary of the facts as they stand.

[@Billy8010]

But ignored article 40 par 6 of Bunreacht na hÉireann

[@johnhehir508]

Facts is the whole point ,is there such a thing as male and female ? Are these facts ? , Are all those birth certificates with male or female , actually legal now? Are medical records legal?

[@davidredmond1761]

Fantastic