Let's talk fantasy trilogies

[@UdyKumra]

I have some thoughts on the trilogy as a writer. I really like the duology as a structural choice, I just think it’s incredibly difficult to pull off and have the first book have a satisfying ending. This is largely because of the three act structure you mentioned, which I’ll go deeper into. Act One usually sees our main characters begin the story, but they’re often not in the main story quite just yet-they’re often dealing with other problems that we use to establish who they are, before they’re pulled in deeper by the main plot at the end of Act One. In A New Hope, Luke and Han are going to save Leia from Darth Vader and are pulled deeper into the rebels vs. empire plot at the end of the movie. Act Two has two parts-fun and games, and descent into darkness, separated by the midpoint. Fun and games is also called “the promise of the premise”, where we actually get the main characters participating in whatever we were promised the story would be about in a fairly straightforward way. The first half of Empire Strikes Back-which is the first half of Act 1-has the Battle of Hoth, the Millennium Falcon escaping through the asteroids, and Luke Skywalker beginning his training with Yoda. Just when things appear to be going well, we get the midpoint, which in every story is either a false high or a false low. Either the heroes believe they are winning before things start to get bad (false positive), or the heroes believe they are at their lowest point (false negative 1), or things just start to get bad, but unbeknownst to us, this is not the worst they will get (false negative 2). In Empire Strikes Back, this is the moment where Luke sees a vision warning him that he will turn to the dark side and Yoda lifts his X Wing out of the water, telling him to confront his own lack of faith (false negative 1), while Han and Leia confront their romantic feelings for each other and believe they can get help from Lando at Cloud City (false positive). After the midpoint, we get the descent into darkness, where things get progressively worse. In Empire Strikes Back, Luke learns his friends are in danger and goes to save them, while Han and Leia are betrayed by Lando. Han is frozen in carbonite while Luke duels Vader and learns that Vader is his father. The heroes suffer this great defeat and escape, at their lowest point-the end of Act 2, also known as the dark night of the soul. Act 3 is where the heroes pick themselves up again and put the world back together. This is Return of the Jedi. With fantasy books, this trilogy structure is perfect because there are very clear beats that are very easy to follow in action/adventure stories. Most importantly, perhaps, book 1 does not actually often need the other two books to be read satisfyingly-the break point for book 1 is at the end of Act 1, which is usually a victory of some sort, and the “pull deeper into bigger conflict” bit can easily happen at the beginning of book 2 without cheapening the ending of book. Then book 2 is decidedly NOT a standalone with a sequel, it ends on a cliffhanger low point (like in Well of Ascension). Then book 3 ties everything up. The problem with a duology structure is where do you put the break point? The Act 1 break point is great because it’s easy to end a book satisfyingly without needing sequels, but with a duology the Act 1 break point is not enough of a story because then book 2 is just going to be enormous. So your options are the midpoint or the Act 2 break point, both of which have their own problems, because they will often end the first book on a huge cliffhanger, which you generally don’t want to do for first books in fantasy series. You’ll usually have a false negative, a false positive followed by the first action of the descent into darkness, or a true negative depending on whether you break at midpoint or end of Act 2, and that’s just telling your readers “come back to see how this all concludes!” You could theoretically do a false positive without the first movement of the descent into darkness, but this is hard to pull off because if things end seemingly well at the beginning of the first book and then the second book things are suddenly bad again, it’s like, did we even accomplish anything in the first book? Why did we end it there if things were just gonna get bad immediately? I’ve not really seen this aspect handled super well except maybe in the Poison Wars duology by Sam Hawke, but in that case it’s more of a series of episodic adventures that are more loosely connected rather than a long serialized tale like normal series are, and the author is pushing her publisher to write more than 2 books in the series. An example of a popular duology that ends on a cliffhanger is Six of Crows. Now I don’t think these books are very good, but they exemplify this problem that the first book just doesn’t stand on its own. Okay, so trilogies have better break points than duologies, but then why are middle books often bad? A small part of this is likely because new authors spend years laboring over their first books, but then only one year on their second books, which leads to mistakes. But in terms of story structure, I think this is because middle books usually cover the most ground, taking us from the first victory of the story in book/act one to the fun and games to the midpoint to the descent into darkness to the dark night of the soul, and authors will often find it difficult to balance these different elements of the story. Well of Ascension, I believe, spent far too much time on the “fun and games” before we got to the “midpoint” twist where a certain character loses their power. And if you weren’t finding the fun and games politics stuff very interesting, the book is then going to drag for you because we spend so much time digging our heels in there with nothing major changing, and then the interesting finally happens at the midpoint twist where we get the REAL story. I love the fun and games of that book, but many people don’t, and so they tend to like that book much less than I did. (There’s probably plenty of other things to dislike in this book, like the weird Zane stuff, but I’d say this is the main one.) Most middle books that drag usually drag because of too much time spent on fun and games and dragging our feet to get to the midpoint. One way to spice this up if you WANT all those fun and games is to create smaller twists and turns throughout the fun and games so that we’re constantly guessing as to what’s happening before hitting us with the midpoint and changing the direction of the story. Otherwise, just cut down. Anyway, there’s my theories lol. I think a LOT about story structure because I’m such a nerd about this stuff. Most of my stories that I want to write are 3 books or 5 books (5 book is just extended 3 act usually, with often the third book having middle book syndrome-for example, Oathbringer) so I’m often thinking about this, and I really want to write a duology and spend a lot of time thinking about how to make a duology feel right, with a satisfying ending to the first book that isn’t a cliffhanger, but I haven’t cracked this problem yet. Sorry for the essay lol :)

[@Bookborn]

Found this incredibly interesting, thanks for sharing your insight! This makes me think that instead of needing more duologies, we just need authors who have enough content for all three novels haha. I was thinking of The Darker Shade of Magic trilogy when you talked about "fun and games". That was the part I disliked most about the second novel; they set up a plot device that's clearly just all for fun and it annoyed me. I was like...what's the point? So maybe that's why I struggled with second novels in trilogies so much.

[@UdyKumra]

@@Bookborn Yeah I think it’s one part authors needing to have enough content for the whole book and one part authors balancing fun and games with descent into darkness. Book 2 should be the most intense in the series, not the one where it feels like we’re dragging our heels. :)

[@Bookborn]

@@UdyKumra It's interesting because you are describing in words the way I've felt before but haven't been able to express. I'm realizing some of the 2nd books I've had problems with didn't raise the stakes enough.

[@UdyKumra]

@@Bookborn Yes that would be a problem with the middle book! A lot of authors talk about how hard it is to dig deeper into their characters for book 2 but nobody talks about raising the stakes lol. That, to me, is the more important part.

[@EC-vw6pd]

Idoic ftxr

[@QuestLegacy]

YESS Royal Assassin is so flipping good. All the way through! I never considered that it totally breaks the trilogy middle book rule!

[@Bookborn]

It's just so different than the usual stuff I've read!

[@TheNeodarkwing]

In my opinion Hobb just gets better and better. I read the entire Realm of the Elderlings and think it is very underrated due to the first trilogy not being Hobb's strongest work. Not that Farseer is a bad trilogy. The best trilogy from Hobb is Liveship Traders which can be a stand alone without reading Farseer.

[@Lizzie_04]

Well of Ascension was by far my favorite Mistborn Era 1 lmao

[@Bookborn]

lol there are many of you in the comments! Please forgive me.

[@henrytortor2530]

Same lol

[@starmorpheus]

I thought I was the only one. Absolutely loved the politics and mysteries of that book. It was honestly a primer for me reading 'The Way Of Kings'

[@aldoaparicio5778]

The Kingkiller Chronicles is a Duology . Why are we talking about a third book?

[@Bookborn]

We must laugh or else we'd cry 😭

[@joshyaks]

Fascinating discussion! What's interesting to me is that my favourite high fantasy trilogy ("The Fionavar Tapestry") and my favourite duology ("The Sarantine Mosaic") both come from Guy Gavriel Kay.

[@Bookborn]

I haven't ready any of Kay! I need to add him to my list...

[@stephenbarrett8861]

@@Bookborn Guy Kay is awesome!

[@derrisreaditbefore]

@@Bookborn Fionavar is wonderful

[@blaguard6963]

Trilogy with a great 2nd book: Powder Mage Crimson Campaign puts the characters in an impossible situation that they have to claw their way out of, has great character development (especially for Taniel), and a conclusion that is satisfying but also sets up the third book well.

[@Bookborn]

My husband LOVES powder mage and has been trying to get me to read it for ages. I need to finally get to it.

[@blaguard6963]

@@Bookborn your husband has good taste lol Would love to hear your review when you get to it!

[@shintaishoogaisha123]

Dude, i came here to comment exactly this! Crimson Campaign was the book that hooked me to the powder mage universe

[@v3rmilli0nair3]

I couldn't agree more. It's been a while since I read them, but I remember thinking that that quality of storytelling/writing skyrocketed in the second book in Powder Mage trilogy.

[@hillary6563]

@@Bookborn It's really phenomenal. I highly recommend McClellan!

[@vaughnroycroft999]

Really late to the party, as I just discovered your content. But one thing that I love about all of the videos I've watched so far is that you are always challenging your own preconceptions and biases. It's a fantastic way to explore one's thoughts, and it takes a certain kind of humility to even perceive the benefits of it. Few people have it (including on BookTube). And my new catch phrase is: Humility is the new confidence. Kudos. Glad to have found you. (Also, agree with you about Hobb and Royal Assassin.)

[@Bookborn]

Thanks so much for this super kind and specific compliment! I try really hard to be open to new perspectives and I hope to keep showing that through my work!

[@DanielSClouser]

The Licanius Trilogy has one of the best second books I've read. At the end of the first book, things are interesting, but we have almost no idea of what is going on--except that it seems like it's huge and epic. I was very skeptical that it could be satisfyingly resolved in a trilogy. Book 2 *definitely* changed my mind. A series of flashbacks covers exactly the right moments, over thousands of years of history, to tell you what's going on and make good on the promise of an epic narrative. It's a series that I could easily see being stretched out over 5 or 6 volumes, and there are even some things that might have worked a little better if it was. It was, however, nice to get an epic fantasy story with faster pace.

[@Bookborn]

You're the second person here to mention this trilogy as being an amazing one. I guess I need to add it to my (never ending) list!

[@DanielSClouser]

@@Bookborn It got a lot of attention when the first book came out because the Barnes & Noble blog compared it to Wheel of Time. I don't know how accurate that is, but fans of WoT and newer fantasy authors like Brandon Sanderson should probably appreciate it.

[@hillary6563]

Oh, The Licanius Trilogy!😍 It's in my top 3! 🥰

[@GrapplingBook]

I believe the concept of sunken cost also plays into it; people feel like it's safer to invest their time reading a trilogy because that usually means the author would have had enough time/space to flesh out the intricacies of his plot and develop his characters towards a rewarding conclusion while duologies lack that unspoken assurance that trilogies give off in principle.

[@Bookborn]

Well but the cost of reading two books is less than three, so sometimes I'd be like "this first novel wasn't amazing, but it's only one more book so I'll give it a chance..."

[@GrapplingBook]

@@Bookborn I'm sure different people could rationalize it either way. For me at least, I never buy duologies, either give me three books or just one.

[@Bookborn]

@@GrapplingBook So interesting you feel that way!

[@Tyronekong]

I highly recommend Powder Mage Trilogy by Brian Mclellan and currently on the second book of his second Trilogy Gods of Blood and Powder. Its Flintlock fantasy and I think its awesome!

[@Bookborn]

I usually dislike fintlock but my husband is obsessed with Powder mage so I have to get to it eventually...

[@TheLibraryofAllenxandria]

Great thoughts! I'm trying to even think of some trilogies that I've read. I think the Dark Elf trilogy (Homeland, Exile, Sojourn) was pretty good as far as that structure goes. Salvatore's other series (Demon Awakens, Demon Spirit, Demon Apostle) was really good in that regard as well. The Poppy War is a trilogy where the 2nd book (for me) is far and away the best one.

[@Bookborn]

I've heard that a lot about the second book in The Poppy War! I'm hoping to get to that series this year. I've only read one Salvatore book and I didn't love it, but I heard I started with the wrong ones.

[@kimberlycowger9909]

Melanie Rawn's Dragon Prince, Star Scroll, Sunrunner's Fire is a trilogy, followed by another trilogy in the same world set a few years later with Stronghold, The Dragon Token, and Skybowl. Seriously awesome series. I did have a bit of a problem with the Star Scroll, but the rest makes up for it!

[@warrenwise8798]

I think it’s classified as sci fi more than fantasy (whatever, they’re basically cousins of each other), but I found the Red Rising trilogy to be exceptional, where each new entry was better than the prior entry.

[@Bookborn]

I actually dnf'd that series after book 2 😬 It wasn't a conscious DNF, if that makes sense. I just started reading something else and then never got around to reading Golden Son, and now I feel like I don't remember enough to jump back into it. I struggled getting into Red Rising but thought it ended with a bang, and I remember enjoying the second one a lot and some of the plot developments there.

[@therupoe]

I LOVED the second book in the Wool series! Surprised by tour take. It gives so much “lore” on how the silos came into existence and what life is like in Silo 1. To each their own. The Robin Hobbe (sp?) series for Fitz is great! There are THREE trilogies that, as a whole, cover the character’s entire life (which is a rare treat for characters you love and grow attached to)

[@65Drums]

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the other two trilogies in the Robin Hobbes series about Fitz. Everyone talks about the first three books, but there are six other books in the mainline series too. The Tawney Man Trilogy and Fitz & The Fool. Each trilogy skips forward a few years each time.

[@Bookborn]

Yeah those have been on my list for quite a while actually! I'm hoping to get to them early next year. I hear the next one is incredible.

[@BookishChas]

I definitely agree that trilogies are way over utilized, but I think like you said we like things in threes lol. Some duologies have great success, such as Six of Crows and Crooked Kingdom. Some books I even think work just fine as standalones. I honestly don’t think we need a sequel to Elantris or Warbreaker, but he’s doing one.

[@Bookborn]

Warbreaker is my absolute favorite of all time so I desperately want a sequel, lol, although I think it'll probably be one of those almost stand-alone sequel kind of things, considering it's coming so late in the Cosmere history. I think Elantris works well on it's own. In fact, when we talk about stand-alone high fantasy, Sanderson is the only ones that immediately come to mind. Although, I suppose since they are all Cosmere related, we could through Earthsea in there; the first two at least seem pretty stand alone, even though they are related.

[@DestinedOne92]

I think part of the reason why trilogies are so popular is due to expectation. A lot of the most popular fantasy series are ones that have a minimum of three books and because of that, it has shaped the reader's expectation on what a fantasy series should be. So since that expectation is there, if someone makes a standalone high fantasy book, it feels disappointing- unless that book is a closed tale in an already established high fantasy universe. So I feel that expectation deters a lot of fantasy authors from writing standalone books. Most authors go into writing a high fantasy story with the expectation of writing more than one book as a result. Now in terms of why duology's are not more popular- I'd say it probably comes down to marketing. Publishers prefer a fantasy book to be within a certain size unless you're an established author with an audience that would buy longer books. What that means, is if a book was originally planned to be two longer books- it will get stretched into three shorter ones and likely extra content is needed to fill out the third book. Also, it's easier to make money from three books than two assuming the quality is there for fans to consider a third book. The more scenarios like this happen, the more they reinforce the belief that a fantasy series should be a trilogy to the readers who pick these books up. I would not be surprised if a lot of books with middle-book syndrome were dragged out deliberately to make a third book because they felt their publisher or audience were expecting a third book. One thing you didn't cover much in your video- a lot of high fantasy series often go beyond three books. As an aspiring author planning to write in the high fantasy genre, I think this is deliberate on the author's part. It's generally easier, in my opinion, to continuously expand to a pre-established universe, than to continuously create new ones with new rules and systems. There's only so many universes one can create before they run the risk of either having their ideas blend together in a repetitive way, or creating universes that have no depth to them. I think most authors realise this, and as a result, commit mostly to one universe. One problem with this, is if an author produces too many books in one long storyline, it isolates the series from new readers- as the length becomes a barrier to entry. I think the compromise point on this has become the trilogy. Most people are willing to read three books. But how many of those same people would read eight or nine books? This leads authors to write a trilogy, plus other standalone books in the same universe later, or a second trilogy in the same universe. This appeals to more people, and the people looking for more can go look at the other books in the series. Putting these three things together, it is not hard to see why fantasy series end up as trilogies.

[@Bookborn]

Excellently reasoned comment. To expand on what you said, maybe that's why multiple trilogies in a world are also preferred. I think of Hobb's writings (Although, that might have been her own choice, I have no idea) or even the Grishaverse. I also wonder if the expansive series feel like they HAVE to be expansive to really be "high" fantasy. Like, wasn't GoT originally supposed to be smaller but he expanded it? It's interesting the push and pull between planned and extending - sometimes it does a series good, sometimes not.

[@DestinedOne92]

@@Bookborn Well, I think in general, a fantasy universe benefits from being extended, as long as you follow two golden rules. Any new content must follow the rules and systems already in place in your universe. Ignoring them or trying to retroactively change them usually leads to fans disregarding the content altogether and complaining 'previous books were way better.' The other thing is, the new expansion must be interesting. Stretching out events to fill pages without enough content is a surefire way to get people to stop reading your book. Same thing can happen if the stakes just don't feel as high as the books leading up to it. That said, I think the reason why having two trilogies is more popular than say, a sextet series, is because most stories have a shelf life. To have a character be the focus of book after book, you either need several character arcs for that character- or they need to be making slow progress on the character arc they have. There's only so many times a character can reinvent themselves and only so strong a character can grow before it becomes a problem. On the other side of things, there's only so long you can delay character progression before it runs the risk of becoming stale. Some stories can work around these problems, but it needs to be deliberately done. If not, it's only a matter of time before they break those golden rules I mentioned earlier. Usually such stories employ multiple protagonists to get around this, but that adds new layers of complexity and comes with its own problems. In comparison, trilogies tend to be more straightforward to work out as you go, and you can often switch out protagonists in a new trilogy, or have a protagonist return after a significant length of time with new goals and new enemies, or a combination of the two. You can also explore time periods or major events that are discussed in your universe that would simply not be possible with the current protagonist or setting. In that way, a trilogy has the flexibility of a standalone book or duology, but minimizes some of the pitfalls that come with those or longer series.

[@EricMcLuen]

@@DestinedOne92 Anothet thing is did the author plan on a trilogy or just start churning out more due to demand. Erickson is the exception where he planned on writing a ten book series, or nine since DoD and CG are really one really big book split. Mark Lawrence's Broken Empire and Red Queen's War are odd in that they are two trilogies but take place at essentially the same time but are each self contained, with a few cameos in Queen. Not aware of any other author that has done that.

[@DestinedOne92]

@@EricMcLuen Well, in my opinion, it is better to plan as much ahead as possible. The problem with winging it is that you are bound to forget things over a long period of time. If you are writing a book a year and you're into your 3rd book, that's one thing. When your series has been going on for over a decade, it's another. Having said that, skilled authors or very organised ones can get around this. And even if you plan ahead- plans change. Sometimes you plan too much. Sometimes not enough. Sometimes you realise the ideas you had for book five when you were on book two weren't as good as you thought. And some authors change their plans if people figure out the ending too far ahead of time. Making significant changes like that can wreck absolute havoc on your world's consistency. So taking the Erickson approach can be pretty scary unless you got a lot of confidence in your work. Whereas trilogies are often a safe choice most of the time and I imagine most authors would be happy if people want more of their universe after the trilogy is over and had to consider more books at that point. That said, having two trilogies occur at essentially the same time sounds like a nightmare for planning. That's quite a feat.

[@martinrogergagnon]

Have you made it through the two sequel trilogies in the Farseer series? Very few books have resonated with me the way they have. I also recommend the First Law trilogy!

[@Bookborn]

I just started first law yesterday :) And I've been meaning to get around to it and haven't, but making this video and reminding myself how much I liked the first trilogy, I think I'm going to move them up on my list!

[@derrisreaditbefore]

@@Bookborn glad you're looking at continuing with Robin Hobb, watching her characters grow AND LEARN, is a writing masterclass

[@ThePersephoneDiggen]

I hope you’ll upload videos about standalone books, duologies, quartets and series.

[@TNorville101]

I read the first wool, and found it interesting, but didn't have the desire to push onto the 2nd part. I'm glad to know that I can use my time reading other novels instead. Thank you!

[@Bookborn]

Yeah, spoiler alert: The second book is all a flashback, basically, and takes place in the silos again. So it seriously just feels like reading the same story over again.

[@aliciaguzman]

The second book in a series often feels like the set up for the third and final book. The only trilogy I can think of where the second book shined (at least for me ) was Mistborn era 1. I know many people would disagree and say that it's the slowest book but it just had SOOO MUCH. We learned SOO MUCH. oh update: haha you're one of those people who prefer book 1 and book 3 hehe I agree with the Darker Shades of Magic Series. The second book was not needed at all.

[@Bookborn]

I knew that was going to be a contentious point! I feel like it's 50/50 within the fandom on whether that book is slow or not. I agree at least that it was NEEDED - there was tons of info in it, I just think it needed a little more excitement maybe? Yeah the Darker Shades bummed me out a lot. My experience so far with VE Schwab is she has these incredible ideas but can't quite execute them.

[@aliciaguzman]

@@Bookborn I agree that overall WoA is quite slow. I just personally don't mind slow books (if done well).

[@Bookborn]

@@aliciaguzman I'm not sure if it was just my newness to adult fantasy when I read it (it was my second foray into adult fantasy), because usually now I have more patience for that sort of stuff. I wonder if I'd feel differently if I read it today.

[@lordruler69]

@@Bookborn Now that you've done WoT I can't imagine Well of Ascension feeling all that slow. I love the tension of all 3 armies gathering outside Luthadel. And the Sanderlanche. My biggest issue was probably Zane but Vin kicks his ass 60 percent in so I could deal.

[@n0zenzur]

The second book is fantastic.

[@jameswitts3793]

On the subject of trilogies, His Dark Materials has a great 2nd book The Subtle Knife It introduced a new main character, the world / worlds became bigger and it is the shortest book in the trilogy

[@Bookborn]

Someone keeps telling me to watch that show and saying it's so good! Maybe I need to check out the book...

[@jameswitts3793]

@@Bookborn the show is good But I was being a bit of a book purist so I didn’t love it But seeing people’s soul as an animal is fantastic

[@Bookborn]

@@jameswitts3793 I'm usually a book purist so I'll check out the book before I do show for sure

[@leonmayne797]

This is more YA sci-fi but I thought it was worth mentioning because it was written by Brandon Sanderson. A trilogy I really love is The Reckoners series. Although the second book was my least favourite out of the three I still loved it and it was only cause the series had such an amazing beginning and ending. One thing that the second book did that I loved was (minor spoilers) making the ending a second act low point for the series. I think that helped a lot with avoiding the problems as its often an important part of three act story structures and helps keep the audience invested for the finale rather than having them be bored and feel like the heroes are always winning and/or nothing's happening.

[@jakebishop7822]

my obvious pick for trilogies that don't have those problems is The First Law Trilogy, since book 2 is my favorite.

[@Bookborn]

Someone else in the comment section already mentioned that trilogy. I've not heard anything bad so I'm super excited to start it after I finish the book I'm currently reading.

[@jakebishop7822]

@@Bookborn As long as you are fine with everyone being terrible, it is a great series.

[@derrisreaditbefore]

This was really interesting, and made me think about series' I've enjoyed. As a Robin Hobb fan, I gave a fist bump at your Farseer mention, and the other trilogies in her Elderlings saga work as well. One trilogy I enjoyed that you might find interesting is one by Raymond Feisst and Janny Wurts. The story is a spin-off from Raymond Feisst's Magician series, and because it's set on a different world, can be read completely separately. The Empire Trilogy - Daughter of the Empire, Servant of the Empire, and Mistress of the Empire. Could be a series you can get into.

[@Bookborn]

I'll have to look into that Magician's spin off. I haven't read the Magician yet because i've heard some things about it that makes me think it isn't for me. Is the spinoff a lot different in tone?

[@AverageJoesLibrary]

So I loved Silo saga and can see how it can be a bit divisive because of the narrative structure. Book 2 is all back story and then book 3 the events/people from book 1 and 2 all converge. My wife also didnt care for book 2 and finished and mostly liking it as a whole. I dont mind that Traintino jumping around as long as it pays off or makes sense but I can see how that was jarring.

[@Bookborn]

It wasn't the jumping around as much as that book 2 was literally just a complete repeat of book 1. I was so done with being in a Silo, you know? Like...I've already read all about the life, so I felt it was repetitive. I also felt the relationship written in book 2 was the absolute worst written relationship. I actually googled to see if he was in a serious relationship because I literally thought "there's no way this guy has ever had a long-term girlfriend or wife". (I was right...which is rude but I could just tell 😂 I realize so many authors don't have to experience things to write them well haha)

[@AverageJoesLibrary]

@@Bookborn haha daaaammnn. That’s some digging. It’s been like 8 years since I’ve read it so idk how I would even feel about it now.

[@DeclanOReilly]

As someone who has read a great deal, I find that most of the weaker trilogys were actually stand alone novels that did well in the initial run to have the publisher request more. Which since it was supposed to be a standalone, there was no foundation work laid for future novels, so the author has to go back and pull threads to come up with a plot line for the next novel.

[@Bookborn]

YES, YES. This happens so much. And...it's always obvious.

[@kimberlycowger9909]

@@Bookborn And then there is the opposite issue, which your post reminded me of! What really stinks, from my point of view as a writer, and that everyone says, 'write your first book of a trilogy as a stand alone, the publishers will be more interested.' STUPID! Just freaking accept the trilogy! I have a trilogy in the works, and I simply CANNOT make it into a stand alone. It simply doesn't work. It is designed and the story is too big, to be a stand alone. It's very frustrating, from a writer's stand point to keep hearing this. If it is a true stand alone, let it be what it is. If it's a trilogy, give it room to be! Don't try to contort one or the other to be what the industry THINKS is going to work. UGH! (sorry for the rant)

[@ethancoster1324]

Ahh yes. The Silo filled nightmare that is the Wool trilogy.

[@Bookborn]

lol it truly is a silo-filled nightmare. Fun for the first book, a drag for the second.

[@andrewbeccarelli7613]

hmm good to know, for Christmas I got the Mistborn trilogy, Broken Earth trilogy, and Name of the Wind

[@Bookborn]

All excellent trilogies, tbh, even if there are some small issues.

[@Jackolantirn]

Mistborn? uwu That's a fantastic one.

[@hillary6563]

The Name of Wind isn't a trilogy yet. Book two has some problematic scenes imo.

[@nikosbookreviews]

This was really interesting! It also reminded me I really need to finish Farseer! I really enjoyed the first book.

[@Bookborn]

DO IT. It's so good!

[@urigatt6815]

Not a book but Pirates of the Carribbeans. the 2nd movie just didn't offer much content and was all messy I still love it. I love it A LOT. But not as strong as the other three. As for trilogies that are worth reading and finishing - idk but did you read Steelheart? (he asked a fully realized Sando fan)

[@Bookborn]

See but I have an inkling that the Pirates of the Carribean was going to be a stand alone movie until it did amazingly well. And then every movie after that was kind of just like "how do we capitalize on this?". I'm of the personal opinion that all of them were bad after the first lolol I actually haven't read Stealheart! Mostly because when I got into Sanderson 8ish years ago I was sort of over YA and just haven't visited any of his YA stuff. I need to get around to it.

[@urigatt6815]

​@@Bookborn My recommendation then, is Legion (by sando) It's a trilogy of novelas, 100 pages each, you can easily finish each one in a day! And it's very different from his other works (except for the excellent execution of mental disorder)

[@Bookborn]

@@urigatt6815 Oh I've read Legion! Fun fact, I actually got to be a gamma reader on the last novella and my name appears in the acknowledgements :)

[@urigatt6815]

​@@Bookborn OMG really?! I LOVE the third one! I wept in the end and I swear I grieved Also, I'll answer your fun-fact with my fun-fact! The first one happens in Jerusalem, exactly in my neighbourhood! (Malha) I can see the place where Stephen was held captive (the train station) from my porch! final recommendation then - the original Dragonlance.

[@afantasybabble6222]

The best trilogy I have read is The Liveship Traders trilogy by Robin Hobb. So much quality packed into three books. Another series which is well done and follows the three book format is Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn by Tad Williams. The first books clearly sets up the story, the second book ramps up the action, and the third book finished off with a bang. Another great trilogy is The Winternight trilogy by Katherine Arden. This one is a bit different because the first book is different than the other two but all three are similar in quality. One series which I thought that the first book was vastly better is The Chronicles of the Unhewn Throne by Brian Stavely. The first is an interesting first book but the rest of the series features questionable character development and what I found to be questionable plot choices. The one trilogy that I do not think I will ever finish due to the almost unanimous dislike for the last two books is The Raven Shadows trilogy by Anthony Ryan. I have never seen so many people love the first books so much and then absolutely hate the other two. I thought Blood Song, the first book, was fantastic and everyone says to stop there.

[@Bookborn]

I haven't heard of the second two trilogies you've mentioned, so I need to look into them! I plan to read the other Hobb trilogies eventually, just haven't gotten into them yet. I think I might start with the Fitz and the Fool ones, though, just because I loved that relationship so much.

[@afantasybabble6222]

@@Bookborn Resist the temptation to continue with Fitz and the fool! If you skip Liveship (the second series in the realm elderlings) you will miss the connections and important context for the Fitz trilogies. The order goes like this: Farseer Trilogy - > Liveship Traders Trilogy -> Tawny Man Trilogy - > The Rain Wild Chronicles -> The Fitz and The Fool Trilogy. While both the Liveship and Rainwilds series do not follow Fitz, both are important for the development of the series and some characters feature in the last Fitz trilogy.

[@Bookborn]

@@afantasybabble6222 Ok I'm SO GLAD you said this. I didn't realize I'd be skipping anything, I was under (the apparently very false) impression that they could be read in any order.

[@AverageJoesLibrary]

Ash and Sand trilogy is fantastic to me and everything in all of the books ties together and maters. it is very dark but its very smart and well thought out. Its obvious he wrote it as a trilogy with full intent. He (Richard Nell) is also continuing the world and has a plan to make that world be much bigger.

[@Bookborn]

I've never heard of that trilogy! I need to check it out

[@mrgodliak]

Yes, I like when it’s planned out. Brian Lee Durfee’s series was suppose to be 5 books but it looks like it’ll just be 3 now. I didn’t read past The Fifth Season. And yeah the last time I reread The Lord of the Rings I used my one volume edition, which makes it massive, Its like about 30,000 words longer than RoW. Good video! It’s interesting because I’m reading Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn which was originally a trilogy but the paperback splits the last book. It’s interesting how Williams (or maybe his publisher) fit it into a trilogy’s boundaries because most people would have just made 2 books of the last one because it is massive!

[@Bookborn]

I know a fair amount of people who didn't read past the fifth season. I personally really loved that first one, but didn't feel as strongly about the other two. I never know how to feel about one book becoming two. Sometimes it's obvious and necessary and much better, but sometimes when an author is like "I'm splitting this last book into two!" I'm like...do you REALLY need to or are you just writing too much for the story haha.

[@luketufts6827]

My paperback is three books, the last one is just twice the length of the other ones 😂 in a way I appreciate it because the books end where the story dictates that it should and not where the page count does

[@championcitypeople7921]

This was a good topic. I often think that there should be more less books in a series, unless it’s a Wheel of Time book written by Robert Jordan and not Brandon Sanderson. But I think what could help the second entry of a series is to have the main protagonist that the main antagonist is his father right after he gets his hand chopped off. 😂

[@Bookborn]

lol right, Star Wars doesn't suffer from this at all in the original. Straight-up action and reveals, there.

[@willejones1918]

The Two Towers was my favorite in LOTR.

[@BookswithBridget]

This was such a great video!! I haven’t read the Farseer Trilogy but I think it’s going to be the next series I get to!

[@Bookborn]

Yay! I hope you like it!

[@derrisreaditbefore]

As a huge Robin Hobb fan, Farseer is well worth your time, particularly if character building is your #1 priority

[@yair1010]

A. Superb video. Haven't really stumbled on this particular topic and I'm glad you did so. B. In all honesty, I don't quite remember the content in the Farseer trilogy since it's been a while since I've read them but I will say that I enjoyed them. I do remember though the connection between Fitz and the wolf. And the dragons of course ;) C. The trilogies that hit hard home for me were: 1. Lord of the Rings 2. First Law 2. Mistborn first era D. Best of luck with your channel! E. Subscribed :)

[@Bookborn]

Thanks for the support :) Your taste in trilogies is excellent. Nothing beats that third Mistborn book ending...it's so amazing. I'm currently about halfway through the third book in First Law and I'm loving it so far.

[@yair1010]

@@Bookborn My pleasure :) Yeah, First law is really something else. At least when it comes to characters where imo no one does a better job than Abercrombie. I highly recommend you check out the standalones after you complete the trilogy for they are also fantastic!

[@richardrosen502]

Joe Abercrombie's First Law trilogy is exceptional and I think it mostly avoids the pitfalls you talked about. Though it could be considered as one of the "longer series" since he also wrote three stand-alone novels and a second trilogy (2 books out so far) in the same world. But the first trilogy definitely stands on its own with a well executed three-part structure.

[@abrahamakucewich8645]

While the trilogy is very good, I think the standalones are fantastic (particularly The Heroes). My only real issue with the trilogy is that it has a pretty slow start. The Blade Itself reads like a 500 page prologue almost. Still a very good trilogy and an amazing authorial debut from Abercrombie.

[@Bookborn]

I'm going to b reading First Law next and I"m suppper excited about it because I've only heard good things. Although the other commenter below makes me a tad nervous it'll be a slow start haha.

[@abrahamakucewich8645]

@@Bookborn I didn't mean to deter anybody from reading the series. It is a fantastic series and Abercrombie, much like Sanderson, seems to improve with each book (or at least until book 5 for me in Abercrombie's case). His books are very character oriented so I was not bothered by a slower start and when his books pick up they really pick up. I highly recommend the trilogy, it just reminds me a bit of Mistborn in that its a bit rough around the edges in some technical aspects.

[@Bookborn]

@@abrahamakucewich8645 lol I know, I'm just playing. I've been reading a few slower things recently and I'm just looking forward to dive head-first into something I want to race through. Just need a change up, and I was hoping Abercrombie would deliver that.

[@andrewbeccarelli7613]

@@Bookborn FirstLaw trilogy definitely needs all three books to tell the full story and I don't think ever slows down from the beginning til the end

[@ruth649]

Interesting to hear the A Darker Shade of Magic is the best book of its trilogy. I've actually only read the first one - I reread it recently, thinking that I must have not liked it enough to buy the 2nd book, but discovered that wasn't the case at all! I actually really enjoyed re-reading it, but felt that the resolution was so good that it felt like a stand alone and I just didn't feel the need to keep reading.

[@ruth649]

Also I was thinking about The Black Magician trilogy by Trudi Canavan, and I think the second book in that trilogy might be my favourite of the 3. I found the book's main conflict to be really compelling, and it resolved nicely, while also developing the main arc of the trilogy. I'm not a big fan of the direction the third book took though.

[@Bookborn]

Yes, that's the one nice thing about a Darker Shade, is the first book is great to read and you can really end there! I wish I had honestly lol. I haven't heard of the Black Magician trilogy, I'll have to look into it!

[@ruth649]

​@@Bookborn I wouldn't say it was the most amazing trilogy - I'm going to have get rid of a lot of my books in a few months when I move, and I already know this trilogy will be in the donate pile - but it is definitely an exception to middle book syndrome.

[@TheNeodarkwing]

Keep reading Realm of the Elderlings if you haven't already! Hobb is amazing! I like that Realm of the Elderlings is broken up into 4 trilogies and 1 quartet. The quartet is actually the weakest of the subseries. I think Hobb intended it to be a duology but it was split into a quartet and categorized as YA.

[@Bookborn]

I've been super excited to get to them - I heard in particular the Live Ship trilogy is pretty incredible. I think I'll make it a new years goal for next year; I have to be realistic and assume I won't get to them before January lol

[@samk7721]

You just terrified me with farseer, I'm starting Assasins quest as my next read and now I'm scared for the end 😂 gotta agree, the second book was amazing

[@Bookborn]

please come back and report 😂 I literally couldn't believe the ending, but maybe I'm just overstating it haha

[@samk7721]

What did you think of the first book? Cos I found it suffered a sorta opposite of the first book is by far the best and second lacks as for me it felt slow and like it was lacking something, and if it weren't for the endless praise of book 2 (which I now 100% agree with) I'd probs of stopped after the first

[@Bookborn]

I read it like five years ago, so it's hard to remember exactly. But I must've liked it enough to keep reading the trilogy, so I think I liked it well enough? But I think the second one is just so strong, that that is the one I have the most memories on. The third I think spends too much time on the journey and not quite enough on the destination, haha.

[@samk7721]

@@Bookborn I've only just finished it, the ending was defiantly weird... it all seemed to happen really fast, though I quite like the dragons coming. It did seem strange though that burrich and Molly ended up together considering he was like a father to fitz, but that's just a minor thing, overall I really liked it!

[@Bookborn]

@@samk7721 That was my biggest gripe with the book; we spend SO Much time on the journey and the solution plays out so so quickly. I would've just liked a little more time with it. Burr and Molly's relationship was a little weird to me too, but I was so happy her and Fitz didn't end up together. It was such a realistic relationship for young kids haha

[@tamarazivkovic1809]

If fantasy doesn't have 3 or more books I kind of don't like it...it doesn't give me what I need.

[@Bookborn]

Oooh interesting! So you're like "large scale high fantasy or bust" and I can respect that

[@trewaldo]

Even in stand-up comedy, the rule of 3's seem to work effectively when coming up a list with the third item being the punchline or twist of the bit. 😂🤓🥰

[@Bookborn]

Right, because you can't have a two-list! That just sounds weird.

[@michaelbaldwin7737]

The Well of Ascension is an excellent book!

[@Bookborn]

I think every book in the Mistborn series is amazing. But...if I ranked them, the second would be last. Although, I haven't reread them in a long time, and I wonder if I'd feel differently about the second book now.

[@Nahuelindomable526]

@@Bookborn Well I personally think you suffered from the disease that happened to certain readers: Kelsier's abstinence. I personally believe that the absence of that guy affected both you and certain readers in an extreme way, closing themselves to appreciating the book in a more objective or at least open way. Greetings.

[@Nahuelindomable526]

@@Bookborn Also, that Mitsborn Era 1 Book 2 only exists to be a setup for the 3rd book is an exaggeration of yours. Yes, Book 2 establishes things that will be important for the 3rd book, but the book also has self-contained plots that begin, develop and close in Book 2 itself: the siege plot, the political plot, the Zane sub-plot, the sub-plot of the spy kandra and the prophetic deception. So no, in his own way Book 2 is also a self-contained book.

[@crystalsingh7325]

The Farseer trilogy is my favourite series of all time! 🤩

[@Bookborn]

Have you read the other connected series yet? I'm going to try and fit the next one in this year!

[@mikell5087]

@@Bookborn The Fitz and the Fool series of books is so good, and the ending is the most satisfying ending for a series I have ever read.

[@chocolatethunder3514]

I'm on the complete opposite end of the spectrum in regards to Mistborn, the second book had SO MUCH story and there was so much going on that I was hooked all the to the end despite the jarringly slow pacing. Book one was really good too. Book three, for me, is the weakest of the bunch. For me, book three didn't live up to the potential it could have achieved. It feels like Sanderson got too personal with HoA and it ended up being a theological thought experiment that fell flat on it's face. Still good though, love the whole trilogy.

[@Bookborn]

I will say Sazed's struggle could read boring at times, for me it was more the fulfilling of the prophecy at the end that just blew my mind, and why I put that third book so high! I read Mistborn really early on in my adult fantasy journey and I wonder if I'd feel differently about Well of Ascension now.

[@myribstellmesheslying]

Trilogies and 7-book series are very common.

[@Bookborn]

Really, 7? I honestly can't think of any other 7-book trilogies other than Harry Potter lol I feel like I can think of more 10 or 10+ ones.

[@myribstellmesheslying]

@@Bookborn actually, that's what I was also thinking AND Game of Thrones. But now that I think about it, this is a false claim. Lol. Both of those series just happened to be HUGE successes that they represented a bigger number than 2 in my head. 😅

[@Bookborn]

@@myribstellmesheslying lol basically what happened with me and trilogies. I was like "every fantasy is a trilogy!" Then I actually looked at the numbers and was like...I guess not haha!

[@involunteer]

I watched this video after making a comment on another, so let me make a second plug for my favorite duology, Sean Russell's "The Initiate Brother"/Gatherer of Clouds". It's about 950 pages in total, but the first book is less than half of that, so your investment of time to decide if you want to read the sequel isn't too bad. TBF, there aren't a ton of action scenes (but the ones that are there *land*) and there is some romance. However, what it has in spades is *characters*. Fleshed-out, motivated, and interesting characters.

[@Bookborn]

I actually already wrote it down on my short list of books because I'm super interested in it!

[@matthewdeancole]

The Warrior-Prophet by R. Scott Bakker is the second book in The Prince of Nothing trilogy and is the best of the three.

[@Bookborn]

I'll have to look into them! I've never heard of them.

[@No-sw4xr]

The Obelisk Gate was my favorite of the Broken Earth trilogy by far but I understand why it’s not as well loved as the other parts of the trilogy. I love slow character driven stories so that might be part of it. I agree with the Mistborn part- I never finished the second book and I didn’t like the first one enough to consider trying it again. Read the first few chapters of A Darker Shade of Magic, found it eh, and never picked it up again. But I really want to read the Farseer trilogy and I plan on picking it up after I read Rhythm of War.

[@Bookborn]

The last book in the Mistborn trilogy is the best, imo, but if you didn't like the first one it probably isn't different enough to get there. I loved the first Darker Shades, but probably wouldn't encourage anyone to read past the first one, tbh lol. The Farseer trilogy is good but dark - some people don't like how sad it is. I've heard the second trilogy in Farseer is incredible though, and I'm hoping to pick that up at the end of the year

[@dinocollins720]

Farseer book 2 was awesome!!! Probably my favorite! But... i had some big issues with the third one. It was pretty disappointing to me tbh, not that it was bad, but it didn't compare to the others imo

[@involunteer]

One possible set of books you didn't address are unconnected books in the same universe. I feel this was more popular in the 80's. One example would be Elizabeth Boyer's Alfar books. They were all based in Norse mythology but had different characters and locations. The novels could be read in any order. Some titles are "The Wizard and the Warlord", "The Elves and the Otterskin" or "The Sword and the Satchel". Arguably, shared universe books like "Thieves World" might also fit this category.

[@Bookborn]

Yes, that's a super interesting concept. I feel like I can't talk much about it because I haven't READ much like it. Technically Discworld fits as you can read those in any order, although I think that a particular order works a *bit* better. Although Sanderson's books are all related, you can't read them in any order so definitely doesn't count. Abercrombie has a bunch in his first law, but again, it's mostly made up of different trilogies. I wonder if that's a dying breed of book series.

[@Mackampackam]

I can give a few examples of this in SF. The Culture novels by Iain M. Banks are set in the same universe and can be read in any order. And Isaac Asimov set many, perhaps most of his novels and short stories in the same universe. I'd say you can read any of his work in any order, except the Foundation series, which must be read in order.

[@davidranderson1]

I'm not sure the Middle-Child-Syndrome applies as much to movies. There are a lot of trilogies with second books that are as good or better: Empire Strikes Back, Godfather II, Dark Knight, Evil Dead II, Spider-Man 2, Captain America: Winter Soldier, LOTR: Two Towers, Desperado, etc.

[@michaelokeke4976]

Hey Bookborn. Are you familiar with C.S Lewis’s “The Cosmic/Space Trilogy”? You should totally give it a shot as it is “a fairy tale for adults” and it is really cool and a little allegorical considering how his Narnia series are. Still cool too though 🤷🏽‍♂️🙂

[@Bookborn]

I haven't read them! I'll have to check them out

[@michaelokeke4976]

@@Bookborn you won’t regret it. It’s sci fi but feels more like a classic fantasy story than just a “sci-fi” The Space/Cosmic Trilogy order of publication: Book one: Out of the Silent Planet Book Two: Perelandra Book Three: His Hideous Strength Fun Fact: Lewis wrote these books before he created Narnia and it’s more adultish and a bit longer

[@thatsci-firogue]

I seem to be lucky when it comes to trilogies, granted I don't read a lot of them, and they tend to be darker fantasy. Im going to read Mistborn sometime, probably a couple of weeks after Oathbringer so hopefully I'll like it cuz its been the most hyped Fantasy series since I got back into reading in 2019. I am loving Farseer so far.

[@Bookborn]

Farseer is really good, although I did feel like the ending was a bit rushed.

[@jujubean9063]

The middle book is important. It helps to fully ground you in the world, invest you in the characters, and set up the third book. Personally, I love the middle books. And I believe that without the middle book, the final book wouldn’t be nearly as impactful. When you cry in a third book, chances are your emotional investment in that scene is heightened in some way by the second book. Well of Ascension is where I fell in love with Eland. If we skipped that book, I wouldn’t have had that love of Eland in the third and it would have made a huge difference in my perception of the third book. I think people need to learn to enjoy simple scenes in books rather than always looking for action or conflict resolution. Just enjoy the world and the characters.

[@thomassears1432]

I’ve just discovered your channel, and I know this is an old entry, but to answer your question. I think a great trilogy is the All Souls trilogy by Deborah Harkness. I think the second book is not weak because it is so different, placed in a different time period then the first and the third.

[@Bookborn]

Oh I’ve heard of that author but never read anything by her. I need to put her in my list!

[@thomassears1432]

@@Bookborn the first book in the trilogy is The Discovery of Witches.

[@leijten]

The Wizard Knight by Gene Wolfe was pretty good, though not one of his best works it is a duo-logy (The Knight, and The Wizard), other than that I can't think of any 2 part fantasy or sci-fi series I've read.

[@Bookborn]

I have only read 1 or 2 duologies too. I think I just want more of them because I feel so many trilogies don't have the content. But, someone pointed out that it's difficult to keep tension in a novel that only has two books without making it an unsatisfactory ending. So that was an interesting point...

[@leijten]

While it may not be done so often doesn't mean it isn't possible, I also think it could hopefully clear some middle-book issues or of padding overall.

[@EricMcLuen]

New Sun might count as it is two books but 4 volumes. Not sure if they were ever published singly.

[@TheBookishMom]

I would love more duologies. I think this is extremely prevalent in YA fantasy as well when SO many of the trilogies COULD easily be a duology and I think the stories would be a lot better because of it.

[@Bookborn]

I honestly think trilogies are even MORE prevalent in YA fantasy (I can't confirm this, I just feel like all the popular ones I can think of are trilogies). It's so interesting that everyone just auto goes to that.

[@TheBookishMom]

@@Bookborn it feels like every ya fantasy HAS to be a trilogy, but really so many of them could be shorter... or longer... but 3 is the magic number

[@SorcerersApprenticeReads]

This was a super interesting and well-done video! The first time I read Mistborn era 1 I really preferred the first book, but on my latest reread I surprisingly connected to Well of Ascension the most. (but 100% in agreement on Shades of Magic trilogy)

[@Bookborn]

I'm wondering if I reread Mistborn now, if I'd feel similarly. My last reread was a really long time ago.

[@SorcerersApprenticeReads]

@@Bookborn Yeah, I first read the trilogy when I was in college and now 10(+😂) years later I reacted so differently to so much of it, even though I still love Sanderson.

[@Bookborn]

@@SorcerersApprenticeReads I read it for the first time in college too, 10 years ago lol! I figure I've probably grown a lot since then in my likes and dislikes and opinions lol It was also one of the first "adult" fantasies I read (WoT being the first), so that probably colored it a bit too.

[@aldov9728]

One trilogy that I love and think that every book was great is Insignia by S J Kincaid. It is YA, though, but the worldbuilding is super interesting. You can see how real life current events could lead up to some aspects of the books world, making it (at least for me) the realest future i have ever read in a book. The books are not long and they actually make laugh out loud, as opposed to the "blow air through your nose" funny that i experience with the majority of books. If you ever give them a chance i'd love to hear your opinion on them

[@Bookborn]

Thanks for the Rec, I'll check them out! I've never heard of them before.

[@liberTvalance]

Trilogies are a thing because of Tolkien. He litter ali made that a thing. Every single one after is because of that man. Thank you Tolkien but I agree with your point that some stories shouldn't be trilogies or even 5, 6, 9 book series. I think the publishers see something that catches and try to expand it. Rumor is that the Wheel Of TIme was gonna be 6ish books but his publisher was like "this shit is gold Jerry. Keep up as long as you can"... LOL.

[@JennFaeAge]

The series' I was going to use I realised a) weren't adult fantasy (other than LOTR anyway) and b)...one of them I'm not sure how to count how many books it has because it's technically two trilogies, but they're linked...sort of?

[@Bookborn]

I think the two trilogies count as trilogies. Like I still count Robbin Hobb's as a trilogy even though technically there are like four trilogies as a part of that same world/storyline. If the trilogy is self-contained, I think it counts! (Like Mistborn Era 1, even though there are other books in that series)

[@JennFaeAge]

@@Bookborn Ah, I mean it doesn't help that the first book of the second trilogy was originally advertised as a final part to the original story, I guess the author changed her plans (although as I said the two are still definitely connected)

[@HugoReads]

I agree with the fact that we need to bring duologies back! I do NOT agree with your opinion on Well of Ascension tho xD thought it was far better than Final Empire actually... Lotr will indeed always be a trilogy in my eyes.

[@Bookborn]

I knew my era 1 opinions were going to be polarizing lol, I think it's about 50/50 in the fandom about it. LOTR is sort of one of those things that most of us experience very young, before we have the chance to research and understand JRR's vision. So...it kind of imprints itself as a trilogy before we have a chance to think of it as anything else.

[@noutsakh.2135]

I really loved Well Of Ascension, but then again, I don't really enjoy action scenes that much, so maybe that's why. As for the series, have you read the Cradle series by Will Wight? It's a really fast paced and enjoyable read.

[@Bookborn]

Weirdly I don't like action sequences either lol but it also has been a long time since I reread the series and maybe I'd feel differently now! Let's be clear: still loved Ascension but just less than the other two. I've had a lot of people recommend Cradle! I need to read it.

[@giladsofer2692]

Trilogies that the second book is as good or better then the other ones (imo) First Law (in all three trilogies) Broken Earth (disagreeing with you here I think the second one is as strong as the first and the third is a bit weaker but still brilliant) Book of the Ancestor Broken Empire Powder Mage The Poppy War (second book was the best) Trilogies that I've read two books from and I think the second is as good as the first lol - The Locked Tomb The Green Bone Saga (currently reading the second and it's already better then the first) Daevabad I don't really think that middle book syndrome is a real thing lol. I mean it's definitely is sometimes but I can say that more often then not it's not the case.

[@Bookborn]

It's so funny because most of the trilogies I've read the second book is weaker, but like 50% of the books you mentioned where the second one is stronger is on my tbr this year. So maybe after this year I'll have to revise this video haha

[@giladsofer2692]

@@Bookborn yess. Read them allll

[@YourBrainonBooks]

Red Rising. That could of easily been 2 books, 1 book, or 0 books.

[@Bookborn]

I stopped after book two 😬

[@jennifersterken4869]

Can you read Darker Shade of Magic without reading the other 2? Could you treat it like a stand a lone or will you be missing out on something from the 3rd book? I own all 3, but have been on the fence about reading them. I keep hearing the first is the best, it's why I'm asking.

[@Bookborn]

You could absolutely stop after Darker Shade of Magic. The first is by far the best, and yes, some things won't be answered, but you'll probably be satisfied enough.

[@Eridi4na]

I highly recommend The Winternight trilogy where every book gets better than the previous one.

[@Bookborn]

Ooh never heard of it! I'll check it out

[@WJRobbins125]

Sanderson's Reckoners trilogy, IMHO.

[@Bookborn]

As an example of a great trilogy? I've only read Sanderson's adult works (other than Skyward/Starsight) so I haven't done Reckoners!

[@WJRobbins125]

@@Bookborn Sparks yes! Reckoners was my first introduction to Sanderson. I honestly didn't know it was categorized as YA until well after I'd finished. Personally I like that trilogy better than what we have thus far w/Skyward/Starsight.

[@Florfilm]

Another great video. I'm realy enjoing this channal. I also think most trilogies suffer from the second book slump. I prefer four book series, because they really need to have more plot to sustain them. In a trilogy often the second book is setup for the third. In a four book series you can't do that. BTW I love the violet lipstick.

[@Bookborn]

And there weirdly aren't a lot of quartets! But I agree, the four book structure helps that middle not be a slump because there isn't a middle anymore

[@Florfilm]

Now that I think about it I guess most of the quartets I’ve read are actually duologies. In the german translation (I’m from switzerland) books often get split in two. The only quartet I can remember off the top of my head is the Hawkmoon series by Michael Moorcock. (My second facvorite author after Sanderson.)

[@Rajathon]

Great points I thought a lot of fantasy was trilogies too.

[@misterrcommenter]

I think the hunger games doesn't suffer from middle book syndrome. I think the third book felt very different cause there where no games anymore.

[@genghisgalahad8465]

The original* trilogy that wasn’t a trilogy: The six books of The Lord of the Rings. I think trilogies goes with the literary/speech device/rule of three to fully convey a thought in all its meanings. Strong, brave and true. Or something musicians or speech writers and novelists might know something about. Or composers with the intro, the BRIDGE, and then the finale/denouement. Something technical term they might apply. Duologies seem to maybe have a tug of war. (Infinity War/Endgame would like a word) A part three resolves the story somehow. A finality. What if the portal scene was the cliffhanger? Then we wouldn’t have been able to part 3 of that saga. weird tangent. Off the cuff, I’d say there aren’t nearly enough quartets, quintets. Sextets are really just two trilogies. They’d have to be.

[@Bookborn]

I mean technically Infinity War/Endgame is a part of a quad, no? Although, I guess it really it's more of a part 1/part 2. They had a to be continued or something at the end of Infinity War right? IDK it's been a while haha! Yeah, the rule of threes is pretty engrained in our psyches and so I'm not surprised this is how most of them go. But I do stand by the fact that some authors don't actually have enough content to fill the trilogy, but feel like they must.

[@genghisgalahad8465]

I hadn't known of your reply until now! Wow! Yes, absolutely! I hadn't thought about that! Avengers IS a quartet! Like Cap's line about the fellows in his barbershop quartet being all dead...and then Infinity War happened!

[@Jackolantirn]

Personally, I don't feel the middle book syndrome as much as other people do. I don't know if it's because I have lots of tolerance, or patience, or I'm just slow in the head, but I don't remember in bad experiences with middle books in trilogies. I'll flip this around, though... I read "The Magicians" trilogy, by Lev Grossman. And I absolutely HATED the books. Worst trilogy I've read in my life. I'd give books 1 and 3 zero stars on Goodreads, if I could. The main character... I absolutely hated. It was miserable to read. And I thought the writing wasn't good. But I'll admit, I thought book 2 wasn't as bad. I'd venture to say the middle book was the only book in the trilogy with any promise, because half of the book follows a second character, and this character actually has an interesting arc. ... But then the character arc ends in a very uncomfortable manner, and there is no sense as to why it ends the way it ends, or what kind of message the author is trying to say, but it was just a very uncomfortable ending to a character arc. Uncomfortable because it's a just a badly written ending, I think, not uncomfortable in that it gave me something of substance to think about. ... So yeah. I guess I'm trying to say that "The Magicians" is a trash trilogy. But the middle book is definitely the better of the three. ... Still bad, though.

[@Bookborn]

It's an interesting thing that I think depends a LOT on what trilogies you've read or experienced. If I've only read the trilogies that have good middle books, this will seem weird. Or maybe it's made up and it's some weird perception we have for whatever reason (it's a common enough perception to have gotten a name...so who knows). I get such polarizing opinions on The Magicians. Some people recommend it and are like it's amazing! And then some people are like ITS TRASH. No in between, as I've seen. I'm wary to start it from what I've heard; don't think it would be my cup of tea.

[@preom468]

A great Fantasy Duology is the Age of Tyranny by Cameron Johnson (Traitor God and God of Broken Things) absolutely loved the book and characters

[@Bookborn]

Oooh I'll have to check it out! I've never heard of them

[@preom468]

@@Bookborn do it! i love that series

[@TreySaunders88]

Red Rising is a great trilogy. The second book is fantastic. I honestly think it's the best book in the trilogy

[@Bookborn]

I honestly don't remember it super well; for whatever reason that trilogy just didn't resonate with me as much. I know it's so many people's favorite so I'm not sure why I wasn't motivated to read the third.

[@AbbySalter]

For me I feel as though the 2nd book always used to be the weakest in the series as they generally geared up to the conclusion of a trilogy but more recently I've not been finding this the case. Maybe it's a change in trends and how authors structure series that is slowly changing. I loved all of the Daevabad and Winternight trilogies - for both I'd say book 1 is the weakest. For the Poppy War book 3 was the weakest for me And I'm currently reading and loving the City of Stairs trilogy with book 2 being much stronger than book 1.

[@Bookborn]

Maybe authors are finally trying to combat the second-book thing since it's become so popular for people to talk about it haha. I have just found myself DNF'ing so many trilogies when things just stop being interesting after the second book, or even the first. I feel like it's been so long since I've read a book and was like "yes I want to read this series right now!"

[@luisfilipecaldeira]

This was great

[@involunteer]

Isn't it interesting that "The Empire Strikes Back" is widely considered the best of the trilogy? The opposite of "middle book syndrome".

[@Bookborn]

Very true...except that it's not my favorite LOL. Although I know it's widely regarded as the best, so I certainly can't say it fails the test.

[@guilhermerinco3041]

I disagree with your take on Mistborn. For me, there's a lot going on in book 2. Vin get's a lot of development, goes through a lot of internal conflict (alongside Elend) and we get a ton of info on the lore of the world. That aside, I kinda understand your point because it is the book with less action in the trilogy, like 3 or 4 moments, where the other books have so much more. For me, it feels a lot more character driven being a slow burn, which makes it stand out from the other two. Agree with Shades of Magic. I only liked the first book. Book 2 I found very boring and book 3 I almost DNF. Farseer is love!

[@Bookborn]

I feel like on paper book 2 has so much going on, so I have no idea why when I read it, it never just feels as tight or exciting as the others. And it's not like length or political intrigue that's the issue, because I like Warbreaker and that's most people's complaints about it haha. I think maybe because I didn't like Tindwyl it also sort of soured the book for me.

[@guilhermerinco3041]

@@Bookborn that could be it. I've had books that I started disliking because a character hahaha

[@mohammadadil456]

@Bookborn You should read Books of Ambha duology by Tasha suri

[@bmoneybby]

I love the idea of duoligies. 2 Thicc Boi books then the story is over. Perfect

[@Bookborn]

That's how I feel. If there ain't enough content for the trilogy, don't do it.

[@LabelWatch]

I don't generally believe in the middle book syndrome theory but I have to agree when it come to Well Of Ascension. It's still a good book but it's just not as good as the other 2. Also my most recommended trilogy is The Magicians. Though technically it's not High fantasy but it's amazing nontheless

[@Bookborn]

I watched some episodes of the Magicians and I wasn't super impressed with the characters, although I liked the world building. Is the book significantly better?

[@LabelWatch]

@@Bookborn The books are very different and much much better in my opinion. I can and have ranted a lot about the show and the amount of mind boggling decisions they made

[@Bookborn]

@@LabelWatch I guess that's true of most adaptations so shame on me for judging the series based on that haha

[@henrytortor2530]

Triplet flow

[@Bookborn]

Exactly

[@noahread3185]

So I just finished your husbands first book! I enjoyed it a bunch! How many are there going to be? Is it going to be three perhaps? 🤔

[@Bookborn]

It is indeed going to be a trilogy lol. I'll have to put him under fire if he hits any of these problems...

[@preciousbrem]

@@Bookborn coool. What is your husband's book called? Is it out already?

[@Bookborn]

@@preciousbrem His first is out, it's called Voice of War. His second is coming out this April.

[@preciousbrem]

@@Bookborn cool, ill check it out!

[@SharpAsRavenClaws]

the only trilogy I liked (and read) is the hunger games

[@ryancruz1876]

The lord of the rings isn’t a trilogy. It’s one novel that was published in three volumes because the publisher didn’t think it could afford to publish it as one volume at the time.

[@Bookborn]

I literally discuss that in my video lol

[@cylelle376]

@@Bookborn I think a lot depends on your definition of the word trilogy. Because while I agree that Rings is a single story and was written as such, it was originally published in three parts. So for me that's what a trilogy is and I find that a lot of so-called trilogies aren't since each book is its own separate story within a shared universe (sometimes though not always) with shared characters. With Rings you don't get the full story unless you read all three books, whereas in other cases, the first book is often a standalone that then gets expanded upon once proven successful. Which sort of highlights the real problem with actual trilogies containing one story in three books - the fact that readers will be less likely to purchase the first book knowing it is 'incomplete' when there is no guanrantee they will ever see the end of the story published. That isn't a problem with Lord of the Rings (and others like it) since each volume is already available.

[@Punkandcannonballer]

Shades of Magic wasted so much damn time on the useless arena fights. The second book also cemented Bard as one of my least favorite characters I've ever read.

[@myribstellmesheslying]

I could've enjoyed A Darker Shadow of Magic if it's two books. I liked books 1 and 3. Book two was just too full of Lila Bard. Lol.

[@Bookborn]

I just thought the competition was literally SO worthless. Like it was clearly just a "this will be a fun thing!" that had no bearing on the plot. I think the second book should've ended with London falling - which was 100 pages into book three. Just that pacing didn't make any sense. Such a bummer because I just loved book one.

[@bhargavapothakamuri4218]

would you kindly review "Ibis trilogy"?

[@Bookborn]

The only Ibis trilogy I can find is historical fiction...and I'll be honest, that isn't my jam haha 😅

[@bhargavapothakamuri4218]

@@Bookborn then, would you suggest the best of Guy Gavriel Kay ? I know I can google, but I would really appreciate your take on this.

[@luketufts6827]

@@bhargavapothakamuri4218 I just started a buddy read of Tigana by Guy Gavriel Kay on Byzans! If you can get the book you’re welcome to join us (me and a few other people) as we read through and discuss

[@bhargavapothakamuri4218]

​@@luketufts6827 I would love to but I have already started The Eye of the World and I am at 23rd chapter. I have postponed this series for years, wasted my good free time on SLA. I am switching Audible and Kindle just determined to plough through the books. Thank you bro, for asking.

[@luketufts6827]

@@bhargavapothakamuri4218 no problem! Enjoy your reading

[@thewhiskybowman]

First thing, I've never really thought of the Lord of the Rings as a trilogy. I first read it when I was 7 and it was a single volume (let me tell you that is hard to hold for long when you are 7!), and any copy I saw when I was young was always in a single volume. It wasn't until much later I saw them being split into the 3 books, so I've always equated it as a book, rather than a trilogy, but I can see how people that got it as 3 separate books first see it as a trilogy. Second thing is rather embarrassing, I actually read the third mistborn book before I read the second. I got the box set imported from the US, as the books weren't available here in the UK when BS was named to finish the Wheel of Time, and I wanted to know if he was a good author. Unfortunately the books in the sleeve were not in the correct order... I was reading the third book and they were mentioning characters I hadn't met, like Zane, but I knew time had passed and so it was logical that they would have met other people we didn't know in between times, and assumed they would be introduced properly later in the series. I actually liked that, it felt quite a clever and bold way of doing it. But then of course it turned out it wasn't that at all and I was just reading them out of order. Oddly it didn't really spoil it for me, which you'd think it should have.

[@Bookborn]

That's crazy about Mistborn! Are you glad you read it in that order or do you wish you had experienced it in the right way? I appreciate how you just kept going with it without any of that setup from the second book. Yes, people realize that JRR wanted it as a single volume, and I think when you read it, even as a trilogy, it still seems like a single story; the breaks are seemingly random sometimes. But, with the movies now cementing it, it feels like most people consider it as a trilogy.

[@thewhiskybowman]

@@Bookborn I was pretty disappointed at first when I realised, but honestly I found it quite interesting knowing some of what the outcomes were going to be when I read the second book. It certainly helped me pick up on the foreshadowing in it! Part of me thinks it would have been nice to read it the correct way first time, but I certainly enjoyed the trilogy anyway, so who knows, maybe it actually added something I would have missed out on if I had. It certainly didn't put me off Brandon Sanderson that's for sure.

[@Bookborn]

@@thewhiskybowman Yeah the good news is because of his foreshadowing his books have great reread potential, so probably didn't end up being too bad. Still pretty funny though.

[@thewhiskybowman]

@@Bookborn I can't disagree. Although part of me, to this day, still wishes he really had started giving snippets about what characters we hadn't yet been introduced to had done with known characters in the past. It added a bit of extra anticipation to meet them. It made it a bit more like the malazan books where you have to keep thinking about what is going on, rather than just letting it wash over you. Instead it just turned out I was stupid for assuming they were in the correct order in the box. Although I guess I should just be thankful book one was at the beginning!

[@f-grade]

Aside from works like LOTR that merit it, I'm quite sick of the trend to make every story a trilogy by default. It's gotten to the point where "book series" is synonymous with "trilogy," as in, "Yeah, I'm writing my next trilogy," or, "Thinking of starting a trilogy." I have to wonder why it's a trilogy from the start, and if it was more of a preconception rather than a natural and essential structuring of the narrative. Sure, it lends nicely to the three-act structure, but that tends to go out the window given each installment still needs this within its own narrative. You can tell when people divide their stories to make trilogies or longer series, as the beats tend to become out of sync, and everything becomes a structural mess (example: making The Hobbit into three movies). Or, you end up writing inconsistently and aimlessly because you had no preconceived outline beyond "muh trilogy" (example: the Star Wars sequels). I think more writers across the board need to spend more time outlining on broader terms. Much of our media has devolved into the sustainability of comic-book or television formats, where the mantra is quantity over quality. People don't write stories to have a clear beginning, middle, and ending anymore; they write the next "episode" of something, sloppily meandering through their sandbox of literary masturbation. When you write books like you play an RPG, the concept of a definitive narrative is like pulling the plug. Discipline is a lost art.

[@Bookborn]

SAY IT LOUDER FOR THOSE IN THE BACK. This is such a freaking well-written statement and sums up my thoughts perfectly. Why aren't people PLANNING things anymore? When something just becomes popular, it becomes a money-grab rather than trying to build a long-lasting legacy of something really well done (which, imo, would lead to longer-lasting profits anyway).

[@f-grade]

@@Bookborn Thank you kindly! You're right. Take any book or movie you grew up with -- there's a reason you kept coming back to reread or rewatch it over the years. That level of quality has been replaced by the quick money-grab you speak of, because legacies are all about franchises now. It doesn't matter if the last one sucked, this one sucks, or if the next one will suck. There's always reboot #48,562. I equate it to buckshot, whereas a well-told story is like a precise sniper shot that hits the mark the first time. Stories that manage that resound through the ages, despite being a singular work, perhaps. But our society is gluttonous and always needs the next fix of something, even if it's good -- especially if it's good. The TV generation needs a constant feed, it seems. But I digress...

[@jakebishop7822]

The Lord of the Rings crowd is going to be mad at you for not treating it as 1 book.

[@Bookborn]

Well I did mention it in the video, so I think I get props for that haha.

[@jakebishop7822]

@@Bookborn ya, but then you came to the conclusion that it actually is a trilogy, so people will be even more upset

[@Bookborn]

@@jakebishop7822 Nahh I didn't come to the conclusion it was a trilogy, just the conclusion that everyone *consumes* it as a trilogy. There is a difference there; the difference is in how it influences how we think about the genre and fantasy. Many people don't know that about JRR Tolkien's works, so how they perceive it is very important to the subject!

[@dixie_rekd9601]

@@jakebishop7822 nah its 6 books :D

[@28kalemat]

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