LET'S TALK TECH-CAM TMING-ADVANCE AND RETARD (DOES IT HELP?)

[@phillipchastain2295]

Thank you for that, I listened live and it answered the question I tried to ask yesterday. Great info, I always appreciate the scientific approach to data gathering.

[@dennisborg5243]

👍😁 as always Richard outstanding! I’m in the process of installing a cam. And I had read a couple of forms about advance retarding. And it came to me stop reading these and see if Richard Holdener has a video on it. Sure enough and of course your spot on. Every engine is different you don’t know until you try.

[@100amps]

I especially appreciate that you teach rational, critical thinking, Richard. Data and evidence is reality. Everything else is just a wild a$$ guess. Experience tells us what might help, data tells us what did help.

[@mikes.1882]

He will talk your ear off about parts and remove and replace

[@sleeperjunky3629]

This goes with my question i asked last night. I really appreciate this info. Thank you. I understand why your such a legend.

[@joelgranado9309]

You right 👍👍. That's years of experience.

[@TPVPRO]

I'm glad you said something about the guys who think they know before testing. 👍

[@boogerfarmer]

Not knowing where it should be is proof you chose the wrong cam. Richard holdener is a moron, look elsewhere for real info.

[@177SCmaro]

I have vvt deletes on my turbo Coyote. With a 4500 stall and stock 15 cams I found the engine didn't care that much where cam timing was around a general 110in/115ex. I did find more overlap made idle tuning a pain. I finally settled on 107in/117ex which is what MHS posts as their suggested cam timing for their "street strip turbo cam", they claim it helps spool faster. Car runs strong in the 4000-7000 range, perfect for a drag car.

[@pontiac411]

Advancing a wide lsa cam often looses tq because it opens the ex to soon during the power stroke, most trends are seen if you start close to the proper cam specs.

[@ImNotHereToArgueFacts]

Depends on several things. Is the cam correct according to the card? Is the sprocket/gear worn or the chain stretched? Are the lifters/cam worn? Have the valve seats/stems been cut? Have the heads been decked? How much preload do the lifters have when pumped up? If you're just lining up dots on a factory assembled junkyard engine and timing with spark, maybe not significant enough.

[@PANTYEATR1]

This is a good video education. I have a DOHC 2.4L turbo 97 Dodge neon (engine from a Plymouth Breeze). I have adjustable cam shaft gears on it, but I've never adjusted them from zero. Having access to a Dyno is the way to go in this case to know if your cam adjustments are doing any good or bad.

[@americanfreedom1]

I think retarding the cam timing is better due to my past experience's with two sbc 350 motors and a dodge 318. These were bone stock with worn out timing chains, etc. Years back I had purchased a 2 barrel 350 from a 73 impala and put it in my 75 nova this was very late 80s. Nova had a 373 with an open carrier. That car from dead stop with no brake torquing would light up the rear right tire and not quit smoking it till it hit 3rd. I'd go through 2 tires a month on the passenger side. After a year and a half it slung a rod. I out ran a lot of healthy built 4 barrel sbc cars with it. When I tore it down the timing chain was so stretched I have no idea how it ran. I got a 77 Chevy Silverado that ran the same way and when I decided to put a new timing chain set in it, it ran like a stock 350. A bit later I had a dodge truck with a 318 that was bone stock and highly used and abused. It was the same way as my nova. Ran like a beast. Sold it to a guy that wanted it for the engine for his 70s duster. He cleaned it up and replaced the timing chain set and gaskets before installing it,it ran like a stock 318 after that. He told me the timing chain was worn slap out. I also know a guy that had a mild built nova and he swapped out the cam and timing chain set for the 3 way set. He advanced it during installing it and it just didn't run right. He tore it down and retarded the crankshaft gear, it ran like a raped ape. I have ran the 3 way in advanced position with a small cam in a stock 350 and it ran like a stock 350. I have yet to run anything with the 3 keyway set in the retard position but I am putting a stock flat top 454 in a truck here soon and am using an Elgin e1066p which I do plan on trying the retard position then.

[@StephenGiovi]

Richard: Thanks for the topic on cam timing. It was very informative. I do have a question about Distributor gear meshing with the cam gear? Can I change the distributor timing and advance or retard the timing that way? What might happen? What are your thoughts?

[@StephenGiovi]

Richard: Watching your broadcast I have answered my question. Correct me if I'm wrong, I think that a one tooth change on the distributor gear will most likely advance or retard the timing by 30 degrees if the timing pointer is set at 5 degrees Advance/Retard.

[@richardholdener1727]

you can't change cam timing by changing the distributor gear position-only ignition timing

[@StephenGiovi]

@@richardholdener1727 Crazy, huh? Thanks for your reply.

[@hymugglee6236]

Sbf i put in a comp 282 dot to dot straight up and the piston was halfway down before the intake valve opened and halfway back up before it shut

[@joshuabecker5213]

Cam timing is only one part in a quad cam engine. From working with vh41 and vh45 and from what I can say one mother of a headache in testing is from the inlet ( inlet of air from the out side of the vehicle) vs (Speed of inlet air) vs (temp of air) vs (air temp even after mass of air increases) AND other factors. Yes more are there. Will make cam timing a major thing IF you want to make the best HP. This is why free valve units just make more all over the rev range. If I can open and close a valve in the best place without can mechanical means I would have that. Yes and have the best ECU to work that out but after seeing even changing air filter can do( racing engine ) I now understand why F1 engines or even NASCAR engine can make or brake a team.

[@markbuskens6070]

When you did the cam video on cam degrees I thought it would be about advancing or retarding your cam.I watched and enjoyed, now it is about cam degree ing.For a street car this is not going to make much difference but think checking to see if it’s positioned as the cam manufacturer recommended is good.I take your word as the holy grail as you always prove what you say.On a different note about LS heads I would like to see a test on the 317 head with a cam with either equal or more lift and duration on the intake.Another great test would be bigger intakes on that 317 head.I love the BTR cams and just saw their shaft mounted stock body system.Love your channel 😍always watch Chevy and mostly the Ls test!!

[@guywihn1658]

Not always and advancing the cam could under certain conditions require that you pull some ignition timing

[@needmoreboost6369]

Great topic! For breakfast with coffee and would have been more fun to play with timing for the first job of the day!!but the reality of a cheap modified car means I’m pulling out my fuel tank and pump’s Again aaargh

[@cuzz63]

Sometimes you can adjust it then things you never wanted to happen can happen...

[@seanbragg1696]

Ratio advantages yes gear drive cam timing is critical

[@scotthultin7769]

Nice setup why does that Bell hold its tension so nicely but the little one that drives the remote distributor stretches so much

[@needmoreboost6369]

I recently put together a 4ze1 turbo and it’s head had been so excessively milled that it was impossible to set the belt in the factory position and it ended up being 1 tooth out! and I’m not saying which way lol with boost it’s got power all the way to the limiter and surpasses expectations to say the least,it’s faster than a lot of vehicles that are regarded as “powerful”

[@davelowets]

It was most likely the compression rise from the milled head that made the difference, rather than the installed centerline of the cam..

[@therealhip9321]

A friend who builds high performance engines always advances the Cam 3 degrees because the timing chain will stretch in time.

[@richardholdener1727]

most shelf cams have 4 degrees of advance built in just for this reason

[@corvettefever360]

To me advance or retarding a cam means you have the wrong cam. This was a thing many years ago when things were limited, parts etc etc. Sure in top notch vehicles squeezing a little out in one direction can be. But then you wouldn't even be here. Real talk. Most heard &/or think they want this or that & have no clue. Reality is straight up. Degree your cam to make sure thats the right cam with cam card specs. Thats why i Degree them. Found them off alot too. Imagine that one as your valve smacks your piston or its so off its a slug, or whatever. Now it all has to be torn down. If you can do it, it sucks. If you're paying for it, it sucks even more . Especially when 6-7 months in the shop still hasn't got to it. But you're mostly or fully paid up. Now your car is that PIA car they finally rush thru

[@richardholdener1727]

I suggest you look into VVT in more detail.

[@freelancerider100]

Should advancing the cam timing be used to increase exaust valve clearance?

[@needadate]

That's 9 _cam_ degrees. It takes 18 degrees of crank rotation to move that camshaft to the same position.

[@markmcmullen1371]

wiki info, In 1970 a Nova could also be ordered with an LT-1 via a Central Office Production Order (COPO). Fifty of these were ordered by Don Yenko at Yenko Chevrolet and were converted into Yenko Deuces. Yenko also converted another 125 L65 Novas into LT-1 Deuces. Production numbers Camaro Corvette Nova (COPO) 1970 8,733 1,287* 52**** 1971 4,862 1,949** 1972 2,575 1,741***

[@michaelblacktree]

Only the Sith speak in absolutes. 😎

[@richardholdener1727]

THE DEGRESS IS STRONG IN THIS ONE

[@177SCmaro]

You just blew your cover, Sith!

[@MrBlackbutang]

Kenne bell said one change at a time . Back in the 70s

[@davidreed6070]

Advancing the camshaft on a small block Chevy usually makes more average power maybe a tingle more on bottom

[@richardholdener1727]

on what cam-that is not universal

[@davidreed6070]

@@richardholdener1727 I'm not trying to say absolute, you did catch I said usually. I think more so than not. If I missed a test I will gladly watch it.

[@mikes.1882]

I think the real question is, Do you need a wider lsa if you have good heads that flow in the curve optimal rpm range your trans mission gear and rear gear dictate you WOT at? If you're throwing power down the exhaust pipe, You have the #wrongcam, Yo!

[@mikes.1882]

And this understanding of cam timing is what tipped over main stream cam talk of the 21st century. Yes, Eric W's epic cam challenge. My money is on Cattle Dog Garage. This guy knows the science. He was born of knowledge passed down in garages where Smokey Yunick was doing the talking. Argue with that knowledge, Brent L.

[@hondatech5000]

The answer is no I’ve seen you do it. I like 4 valve dual cam variable valve timing and vtec on each cam. On the conventional (pushrod) cam your locked in to this -if you move the intake lobe one way or the other the exhaust follows. Ultimately it takes testing. The more complex the more testing.

[@daledavies2334]

Yes, well, DOHC with VCT and 4 valves per cylinder can make great power and torque with the independant variable cam timing. However this comes with complexity. The GM LS series ate a simple design with a lot of engoneering design in them. Now cam selection can be a confusimg issue, and most cam companies are not much help. They sell cams with generally too wide LSA. Now with EFI a wider LSA keeps the O3 sensors happy, especially the throttle body style. Port and direct injection can delay injection until jist before yhe exhaudt valve closes so raw fuel does not go out the exhaust. Carburetted engines like the vintage are kind of stuck with what the platform came with. Now it comes down to what floats your boat and what you have. Personally for a daily driver, the new engines are great with the TICT, good low RPM torque, wiyh good power up in the RPM range. Cam timing can do the job of EGR to a point. For my street rod, I like simple.

[@kanebfr]

With a roots blower, in a street car. Which is better for power, (limited to 93 octane) low compression like 8:1 and more boost, or 10:1 with less boost?

[@richardholdener1727]

boost makes more than compression

[@kanebfr]

That's what I assumed. Boost is basically cubic inches. Volumetric efficiency

[@douglasmunn30]

this man sciences ✊🏻

[@boosted0079]

Would advancing cam timing affect idle airflow and injector pulsing? Could it possibly cause fuel trims to get funky and engine to burn lean?

[@richardholdener1727]

it is running closed loop? then no

[@kennethhacker3014]

Would you recommend that kind of belt cam set up for a daily driver? Thank you

[@richardholdener1727]

no sir

[@kanebfr]

How much effect does changing cam timing make on igniting timing?

[@richardholdener1727]

ignition timing requirements don't really change with changes in timing-but adjustments do

[@kanebfr]

@@richardholdener1727 any thoughts as to why a big block chevy 427 with an 8-71 would run best at 62 degrees of timing? Do you have a tech line or email I can contact you with more specifics?

[@gt5002x4]

Why is spring recomendatios different from a cast to billet roller cam with the same profile?

[@richardholdener1727]

cast roller cam?

[@b.c4066]

@@richardholdener1727 probably referring to sadi cam core instead of billet steel core

[@kirbyclark]

@ Richard Holdener do you have to change out the cam to make more horsepower

[@mosessalazar5484]

Just want to ask, I've seen in other KZbinrs 107 LSA that they applied on engines with 6k to 8k revs is perfect. That's for a V8. I have a single cylinder motorcycle that revs up to 15k rpm and I suspect the LSA is 116-120° I'm not sure, is it ok with high reving engines? Or there's a better setups?

[@richardholdener1727]

first off-6K is very different than 8K rpm. There is no universal lsa that makes cams rev. what is the duration? What are the valve events? What is the LCA? Lots go into optimizing a cam profile

[@mosessalazar5484]

@@richardholdener1727 thanks

[@diavuno3835]

"IF you have to spend $1000 or more on camshafts its cost prohibitive " Yeah.... my marauder coat $2000 in parts, with springs rockers etc

[@Powersawjunky]

What cam should I put in my 74 , 5 yard dump truck…😂

[@mikew6135]

I see most modern V8 pushrod cams are ground advanced. I have never understood this. No way can they know the optimum cam timing unless the company has tested the EXACT combination with same flow numbers and compression.

[@richardholdener1727]

the cam advance is for chain stretch

[@aaronmartins4077]

Are you not dyno testing at west tech anymore?

[@richardholdener1727]

I AM

[@ubethejudge69]

HELLO, i have a 406 pontiac that use to provide seat of the pants top end torque charge until camshaft lobe died. i did not know where cam was installed at. it had 155 psi comp static. a dif shop rebuilt engine and installed same cam . they degreed to where manuf. card wanted it. which calls for 6 degrees advanced. i have no seat of the pants top end charge. I will tear it apart to try to retard but what would you say would be a good amount ? "2 degrees doesn't seem enough" . oh and my current psi is 175-190.. crane 284h / 228/228/ .480/480 112 LSA ICL107(i believe) any ideas?

[@richardholdener1727]

6 degrees advance from the ground straight up cams specs seems excessive, especially since you don't know what it is right now

[@ubethejudge69]

correct me i if am wrong , icl 107 , lsa 112 = 5 degrees advanced? sry said 6, my bad. i installed at icl 107. as chain stretches then it retards back to the 112 was my understanding why manufacturer asks for you to install advanced. so straight up would be 112 icl . i guess my question is, should i just try 112 icl. i'm never going drive it my life time to ever stretch a timing chain lol @@richardholdener1727

[@ragingbull3406]

What dynamic compression works best for 93 onctane? Anybody?

[@richardholdener1727]

much more to the equation than dynamic compression

[@ragingbull3406]

@@richardholdener1727 OK. 414 small block, 4.06" bore, 4" crank 6" rods, 60cc closed chamber heads, 13cc dish pistons, .039, 4.10 bore gasket,11.4 compression. Comp. XR286R roller cam. 26" radiator with dual fans, 180 degree thermostat. Car weighs 3300 w/driver, close ratio TKX 5 speed, 3.55 rear gear. I'm listening Richard!

[@davelowets]

@@ragingbull3406 Check your cranking compression with the throttle wide open, and all the rest of the plugs out. Stay under 190-200 psi.

[@mikew6135]

Brian Tooley? He says LSA isnt an issue. I see, but didnt Richard test this issue and found that LSA DOES make a difference on the same cam grind. Weird how an expert can miss the mark so bad

[@richardholdener1727]

time to move on

[@scottgarmon4865]

I can’t watch this….I had to watch two adds to begin the video, then I think I counted 12 ads so far about half way into it. I hate youtube. Worthless.

[@garysgarage.2841]

That's why ad blockers exist

[@scottgarmon4865]

Most ad blockers wont work anymore. YT has blocked most if not all ad blockers.

[@boogerfarmer]

No loss. Richard holdener is clueless

[@scottgarmon4865]

How dare you say that. He makes Morris and Noonan look like Wyotechs students.

[@boost1728]

@@boogerfarmerthis guy forgets more every week than you’ve ever known. Sit down, shove your ego where the sun don’t shine and try listening to the science.

[@88classic]

Some of your videos can you actually do it ( what you be talking about) on a engine and different engines

[@richardholdener1727]

these are live feed discussions-Q&A-please see some of the other 1000 or more videos on testing

[@boogerfarmer]

An incorrectly specified cam will be insensitive to incorrect timing. You have to test to find out, because you don't know what you're doing.

[@richardholdener1727]

your first statement tells me you are new at this

[@Prestiged_peck]

Dammit I missed it!!!

[@mikes.1882]

I think if you could pick one thing , it is lsa. But you have to know whàt to do next. Lsa matters most, bacause its the one computation that makes the difference, that tells the events. Now, im not talking lsa to pick a cam, im talking knowing what makes up the lsa figure, and that dictates the dynamic of cam function. The issue is, who understands what valve timing controls volumetric efficency. No Richard, you're not a hero. You're a dyno monkey. But evey winner needs a dyno monkey.

[@SARJENT.]

Engineers are compensating for small brained people. Go Darwin.

[@markbuskens6070]

Engineers are really that smart in a real world 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@jondoe8816]

Australia lol