Nazi Germany: Is everyone capable of evil? | Norman Naimark and Lex Fridman

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Norman Naimark is a historian at Stanford, specializing in the history of genocide.
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[@michaellowe3665]

Everyone is probably capable given enough conditioning, but some people are more resistant. Others fall right into it.

[@sspbrazil]

You would be surprised how easily you would cave when given all the right circumstances.

[@michaellowe3665]

@@sspbrazil odd that you would know so much about a random stranger. You sound like someone who would "cave" immediately and wants to claim everyone else is no better. Some people stand up for what is right. People dont know their limits until they are tested, but we are not all the same.

[@sspbrazil]

@@michaellowe3665 in my 55 years on the planet I can say that nobody knows their limits until they are pushed to them, that’s the only thing you said of any substance in your last comment, and your comment more or less proves my point, you can’t even take a different point of view without resorting to a benign conclusion, nowhere did I say anything about knowing how someone else would specifically act, I said that you would be surprised how fast you could cave if given all the right circumstances, “you” meaning anyone and there is no way of predicting that. A great majority of people want to do the right thing, but when a person is pushed to their limits that can go quickly in lieu of survival. We are built with both morals and survival instincts and the two can clash when out into situations that test the boundaries of suffering.

[@michaellowe3665]

@@sspbrazilsure, when faced with survival, people can act in selfish desperation, but the entire story was about how people give in to social pressure when there really are no consequences for their personal survival. People who dont live a life constantly in need of the approval of others arent surprised by their own behavior given a little social influence. Unfortunately, they are quickly replaced with weak minded people who tend to be plentiful. Maybe you would be surprised, but then again you probably wouldn't be. I suspect deep down we all know ourselves better that you suggest. The weak minded just insist that no one is better than they are because it eases their own guilt.

[@sspbrazil]

@@michaellowe3665 they aren’t talking bout social pressures here, they are talking about people that have experienced tremendous suffering and how that can affect even the most resistant of people. You are comparing social pressures with something very different, but since you mentioned it, go and look up Stanley Milgram’s experiments on authority in the 1960’s, this is a primary example of what I mean and how people you would see as seemingly be level headed go beyond what they believe just because they are instructed to do so by an authority figure. My point is you don’t know how you would handle a situation no matter how you believe you would given the circumstances. I also agree with Lex about people who are the quietist are the ones that actually do the right thing most of time.

[@91Durktheturk]

The answer is yes

[@gordonlinton3555]

What a great conversation, and very apt for our time. Look forward to watching the full episode.

[@TheKhela89]

We are all capable of great evil. The first step to preventing it is realising that fact.

[@tommyrq180]

I took a course at the Naval Academy in 1978 concentrating on Nazi Germany in which the course thesis was that Nazi evil existed in all of us. It was hard to hang in there with the professor, who was a civilian. But his case was well-made and had a long-lasting effect on me. Of course he was right, but then again, it was a hard lesson to integrate. Decades later, as a professor myself, this same lesson infused my instruction. And I watched as generations of students had different reactions to this concept. The current generations, starting with millennials, utterly rejects it. Out of hand. They are morally pure, in their own minds. Others are morally corrupt, in their own minds. They are the new authoritarians.

[@AngelofDethMetal]

They should be teaching this lesson in High School. I remember learning about what happened in the Holocaust but never WHY the Holocaust happened & the social psychology behind it that could happen in any society, including our own. The War on Drugs is literally an apartheid system that is resulting in mass death by Fentanyl poisoning right now and yet, most of our country(& the World) supports this system.

[@michaelallen3304]

I think they fear explaining the reasons why because they know some people would sympathize with the National Socialist agenda. However, it seems ignoring it is leading to different but still harmful outcomes anyways.

[@davynewcomb8054]

It takes a lot of humility to admit you are no better than any other person, even Nazis.

[@edmckay8001]

Really?!

[@enriquehernandez650]

What?!

[@michaelallen3304]

The comments yelling “what?!” Tell you how hard it is. Every person is flawed and under extraordinary circumstances most people do the easy thing, not the right thing. Once you admit you’re flawed and have evil inside you too, then you can start doing the right thing.

[@KeithSweatin]

@ 5:48 When Lex said he'd probably make a good German. Watching him struggle to accept that truth even though he's well aware of Nazi Germany's evil. He's able to put himself in anyone's shoes. No youtuber more honest then Lex AI Fridman👊🏽.

[@henkverhaeren3759]

Right. Thanks for mentioning it.

[@minnesoso]

very wise to be most doubtful of those that proclaim their virtue the loudest

[@lucasglowacki4683]

I have the outmost admiration for the Jewish people. I’m Polish and before WWII Poland was the most welcoming country to Jews outside of the US. Warsaw was over 30% Jewish…it really hurt to have such a “brain drain” in Europe. Other cultures have so much to learn from the Jews. I always try to point that out to people when they are feeling sorry for themselves.

[@clausbacher]

Nie pierdol......

[@underratedblastoise3908]

My family came from Poland. Half of them got murdered, the other half fled to Israël and Russia. It's sad to hear their stories because it feels like Poland was one heck of a place to live and could have become a great country in Europe.

[@skp8748]

​@@underratedblastoise3908 colonised and displaced others in Palestine huh

[@madsleonardholvik3040]

I recommend the book Eyland by Sigridur Hagalin Björnsdottir. It's a dystopic novel set on Iceland where all contact with the rest of the world have been severed, for reasons we don't learn and reasons people on Iceland don't know. Pretty soon an emergency council takes control and one problem is the tens of thousands of tourists who visited the island at the time communications seized and as resources and food become more and more scarce they introduce drastic measures.

[@that1monk]

Norman's gentle honesty makes me feel safe.

[@EM-do1yi]

Lex thanks for bringing us great content!

[@skafabafa]

A survivor from the kamps once told me: you don’t have to worry about the good or the bad, it are the ones you don’t know if they are good or bad. Your best chances for survival in this situation is humor, since a lot of people will show their true identity if you make a joke

[@rkumar3000]

This might be one of the greatest podcast moments ever seen. Too much truth. Thank you Lex.

[@patriciapalmer1377]

Do the "right" thing, and when you don't, and you won't always, do the next RIGHT thing, was firmly taught us by our parents.

[@julio-iz3sk]

right on point, if some one tells you that they would do the right thing...its probably not truth

[@vodkacannon]

It’s virtue signaling?

[@julio-iz3sk]

@@vodkacannon don’t understand the question

[@wlovett4]

So you are giving a pass to people who commit atrocities.

[@darkodev6961]

@@wlovett4 not a pass. You would be one of them if you can’t grasp this simple idea

[@yordanmajirov6102]

Thia podcast is on different level..!

[@tommythecat4961]

What Norman says about social pressure is true. During the Holocaust, any soldier, member of the SS or policeman who requested a transfer because they couldn't bring themselves to shoot people was granted it. They weren't demoted, imprisoned, punished, because the top brass understood this wasn't for everyone, which is why they switched from bullets to gas chambers. Yet, very few did, probably a mix of misplaced sense of duty, not wanting to be seen as weak etc, much more than strict adherence to ideology or racist hatred.

[@26michaeluk]

Study after study has shown pretty much everyone is capable of evil. So has history.

[@arzoo_singh]

Why are we easily programmed to hate ? Good question ,but there are two points we have to understand our evolution and our conciousness . Through evolution we are programmed negatively we are more inclined to fear,anger ,lust and all this emotions because of amygdala and the enviornment around us . Now how a evolved conciousness operates ? He is beyond this program ,he operates from kindness love ,harmony etc.

[@seanpennhauer9133]

"Mostly I worry that I would be a good German". Heavy listen, as a German

[@kentalks3391]

Very interested in this topic of human integrity. Thanks for exploring it🤔.

[@alyivy7546]

Your answer is in this book - A New Earth: Awakening to Your Life’s Purpose by Eckhart Tolle. Norman's answer is wrong. The Ego plays a huge part in Evil. It's the most profound killer in human history, a pandemic that has taken more Human lives than any disease. Without ego, there is nothing but Love.

[@mackthnife3]

"I'm a Jew"....Me too, Lex and I'm not the least bit religious....I could always change my citizenship ( maybe...lol), but I'll always be Jewish....its nice to hear that on its own....thank you...

[@h____hchump8941]

Isn't a non-religious jew an oxymoron?

[@mackthnife3]

@@h____hchump8941 no.....it just depends how ur defining being a jew but guys like Ben Shapiro would differ...

[@josephgraham4531]

@@mackthnife3 does he identify as white

[@Boddhisattva007]

Our love of community should come from our shared humanity, not superficial differences. We ARE life… all of us.

[@Forheavenssake1ify]

Inconsistency for sure- Cancel culture does so much harm, but is based on the best intentions and beliefs.

[@richardthompson6366]

The instinct for survival and acceptance will make people do horrific things, we are only animals after all.

[@rm-rc7zj]

Lex, your telling me english is not your. first language? Must be super smart

[@Pimpjit85]

The answer is yes.

[@deborahhebblethwaite1865]

Good interview🇨🇦

[@henkverhaeren3759]

Around evil people it is difficult not become evil. It's a hard lesson to learn.

[@jonathanjollimore4794]

Yes and if you don't believe that well that is scary you don't understand that

[@No2AI]

The right conditions and most will be cruel even evil!

[@JoeMisseri]

That's a book that should probably be mandatory reading for everyone.

[@igormarinkovic1531]

Well depends on your teachings ..genetics...and situation. Mothers family Grubor(Gruber) originated in Germany as far as i know as mine workers. Fled to Bosnia and after that to Vojvodina in Serbia after WW2 from Nazis. After that they accepted Tito Yugoslavia. I say everyone IS capable of evil if they want to be in power. For those who rejected Tito were severely punished just like from any big leader. The most IMPORTANT thing in all is not to be afraid to fight for your freedom and what you love and go with your head trough if you have to. Whats the point other way...

[@markames6030]

Just look around. You have your answer

[@mattfavaloro350]

When speaking of the soldiers that did some of these atrocities I noticed you never brought up the mental state they would be in after seeing people they depended on for their safety with a trained with lived with ate every meal with did everything together be horrifically killed in combat how would that affect your psyche and the propaganda that you would have constantly been indoctrinated with that a certain group of people is the reason that all of this has happened you're speaking about normal civilians you're not speaking about soldiers that have killed and seen death on a scale that is unimaginable to us. If I was asked to shoot civilians in World War II after I had been at War for two years and I think that is what's going to let me go or what needs to be done I would do it I couldn't see myself not in that scenario life would be meaningless and to take life would be like drinking water something that you need to do that doesn't affect you mentally or psychologically it's just a fact of life. Taking a human life changes you unfortunately I know how it changes you there's only one way you can know what it will do but I don't advise you learn how it will change you because you would need to take life or have the intent and carry out what you think will take a human life to understand I'm going to apologize about the lack of punctuation and grammar and any spelling mistakes I'm using voice activated texting and some nomenclature choices and punctuation are prohibitively difficult when doing so I do apologize sincerely about the difficult read if you even got this far I hope you understand

[@tommyrq180]

What seems to exist in all humans is two synergistic proclivities. One is to oppress those weaker than us. The second is to readily accept or passively surrender to oppression. That’s why Dostoyevsky’s works are so important, especially the dialogues between Jesus and the Devil in _The Brothers Karamazov_. The Devil wins the debate by asserting that Jesus utterly misunderstood humans and their proclivity to surrender to oppression. Even their DESIRE to surrender. These are the human foibles that authoritarian/totalitarian zealots exploit in these unbelievably (in)human episodes. Are they inhuman? Well, basically no. Humans make them happen. Stalin and Mao didn’t kill tens of millions. People at the local level who surrendered to the authoritarian way did it. Only that dynamic could result in that many deaths. As Kurt Vonnegut so eloquently said, “and so it goes.”

[@seamuscharles9028]

NOW YOY KNOW the ENEMY is Within YOY

[@jackmariner]

Lithuanian Bolsheviks all the way

[@kappashotcigsmoke2107]

Extraordinary

[@voiceofchina1788]

you don't have the courage not to do

[@uniquenpc854]

Australia is shipping people to camps as I am typing this.

[@awesomeblossom1]

And China.... but I expect it from ccp, not Australia.

[@26michaeluk]

@@awesomeblossom1 what's happening in Australia? COVID shit?

[@miketheyunggod2534]

We are all born evil. We must learn to be good.

[@ITER345]

hes living in a less n less free society

[@noneofyourbusinessna740]

We are born already fallen evil beings according to the holy Bible ?

[@good2freelance1]

Sometimes people who are the loudest don't do much. Example: Trump ...

[@26michaeluk]

He wanted to and would've if he could've done it.

[@wlovett4]

Norman is giving a pass to the monsters who carried out the atrocities.

[@mrbananaflasher]

That's just your interpretation though

[@CG-hj1cu]

What about Palestine ?