Lies Women Believe Part 2: Is God a Monster? - Episode 224

[@chelseal654]

My favorite part of the whole Calvinistic worldview is that all these things are your fault but also you have no ability to choose to act otherwise because of meticulous determinism. What is a girl to do!?

[@DiGrace44]

It’s your fault even though God ordained you to sin or experience a terrible trauma, then a gross misinterpretation of Romans 9:19. This is not the Loving, compassionate God I worship.

[@micahbush5397]

Predestination is not the same as determinism; there are many Calvinists who accept that humans are given free will.

[@Star-dj1kw]

What’s jacked up to me is she sounded like the hyper charismatic church I came out of. The Word of Faith people would say: “you have to have enough faith to believe for a miracle or PRAY THROUGH for your healing or speak a positive confession”. They say God does the work but YOU are given the responsibility if it fails. Same with a depressed person for Nancy: she says, “don’t lean on medical help; PRAY and trust God”. On both sides, the believer is suffering with no comfort from the others around them. Sad.

[@anthonybarber3872]

Is that what Calvinism teaches????

[@janet1744]

Do,? Leave such a crippling church dogma.

[@starlingswallow]

Women have been the scapegoat for _far too long._ It's time for a change and you ladies and many others (including some men!) are leading the charge!!! 🎉❤

[@starlingswallow]

This book I have not read...but what you guys have shared in just the first 10 min? Wow. Just WOW.

[@robynloaf4014]

I recently read a piece written by a Christian man who is well respected by a group of patriarchal pastors that said being overweight is the same as androgyny. People who are overweight are choosing to appear ambiguous about their gender. 🤦🏻‍♀️ It was so gross and disheartening to see how many people, mostly men, who were in total agreement.

[@tina7824]

Thank you for this. A woman I trusted gave me this book and told me should read it. I tried so hard. Looking back I realize how negatively it has affected my view of myself & God.

[@gretchenbaskerville8067]

Thank you for this video/podcast. The problems you pointed out in Nancy's book are very powerful, but what I really enjoyed is how you showed compassion for women (including for Nancy herself) who feel overwhelmed, disappointed, depressed, angry, and sad. Your and Becky’s insights at 31:30 about Nancy’s inaccurate view of depression, and then at 34:20 how Nancy shames the young mother with three children under age 3, are helpful.

[@rivendells_shona]

What’s remarkable to me … okay, so context: I listen to a lot of podcasts on true crime and exposés on known cults. The lingo coming from dogmatic Calvinists (when it comes to denial of circumstantial effects on people and the power of faith/will to overcome literally everything on its own) sounds so incredibly similar to that of groups like … Scientology, the Twin Flames universe, Christian Science, Gnosticism … it’d be funny if it weren’t true. Also, when DeMoss discusses the mother of the toddler twins and the woman whose husband abandoned her … so basically she’s encouraging “main character syndrome” where everything that happens is about your hero’s journey and every person in your life is just an NPC designed to facilitate your “quests”. She completely dismisses the inherent personhoods of both the innocent twins and the cheater husband to make them props or instigators to the woman’s character development. 🤨

[@SheilaWrayGregoire]

There are actually are so many similarities! It's scary.

[@alliematt1016]

NPC=non-player character? Are you a gamer? (My husband does Magic: The Gathering and Dungeons and Dragons.)

[@cweditor]

I find it ironic she blames difficult pregnancies and infertility on being out of sync with God when she's never been pregnant, never had trouble getting pregnant, never had kids, and has no idea what it's like to be a mom! Wonder what she thinks about menopause (or did she magically skip that, too?)

[@mgold7503]

I remember sobbing on my face before God asking what I did wrong to become infertile.

[@joymartin602]

SO GOOD, y'all. I had never heard of scrupulosity before, and when I googled it, my mind was blown. I'd love to hear more about that from you guys; it's a new concept for me, and it makes soooo much sense of the extremely conservative groups I was with in the past. Thanks for another amazing podcast

[@robin-tainebrownell1491]

My husband has Scrupulosity. It's really hard.

[@alliematt1016]

I also deal with scrupulosity. It is its own kind of hell.

[@joymartin602]

@@robin-tainebrownell1491 that must be crazy hard 😞

[@joymartin602]

@@alliematt1016 dang I'm sorry to hear that 😞😞😞

[@joymartin602]

Yeah I'm reading through the symptoms and ticking all the boxes. I always try to be careful around self-diagnosis..... but dang. This boot fits like Cinderellas slipper 😅 What's really driving me nuts is that a mental health issue was called 'holiness' in the missions groups I was with. Like, a legit mental health issue was something we were taught to strive for. That's so screwed up.

[@MistyEry]

The sad thing is that so many individuals are deconstructing due to believing Calvinism is the correct ideology and perception of God. I don’t blame many of these individuals … I have attended a reformed Calvinist church with an abusive man. It seems there is very much an association between ridged legalistic system and abusive men. Their view of God is very dark and it destroys the true character of God. These abusive men follow their perception of God very well, in my opinion. ( disclaimer: I’m not saying this includes all reformers, more so the ideology that many in Calvinism hold )

[@Himmiefan]

Yep. These die-hard Calvinistic churches are very complementarian; in other words, they read the Bible through the lenses of the worldly sexism and therefore conclude that the Bible says that men are in charge in all ways. One thing I've noticed that and that theoolgians Ben Witherington and Scot McKnight have mentioned is that when complementarianism increases, the status of women falls, and abuse increases. These churches attract narcissistic men and create narcissistic men with their teachings and culture.

[@Himmiefan]

Yep, these rigid, hyper conservative churches are very frequently Calvinistic and very much have the mindset of male entitlement. They create narcissistic men and attract narcissistic men. Theologians like Ben Witherington and Scot McKnight have noted a direct link between complementarianism and physical/emotional abuse.

[@Star-dj1kw]

❤❤ excellent work Sheila and team! Exposing lies

[@kalpanachristians8351]

Thank you, Sheila and Becky! For me her version of writing Eve's journal was a big no, no! Lady, you're not Eve! Glad you're exposing these lies. What a job to undo the lies disguised as truth 👏

[@iw9338]

Thank you ladies for addressing this.

[@OOool]

I don't understand, what does she think emotions are if not responses to circumstances? Genuinely, what does she think an emotion is?

[@OOool]

Complete healing only in heaven is very freeing, it means you can just do your best and work towards healing but there isn't anything wrong with you if you don't "get there"

[@yoyocswpg]

I love this take 🎉

[@JovannaandFriends]

Lie 37 was one that kept me in SO MUCH BONDAGE.

[@DiGrace44]

The view of God in this book is Calvinism. Calvinistic theology simply stated is that God ordains whatsoever comes to pass before the foundation of the world both good and evil. Churches are using the teaching in this book as it fits with their own doctrinal statement. Calvinism is also rigidly complementarian.

[@chelseal654]

I so wish more Evangelicals understood this

[@sackettfamily4685]

That makes a lot of sense, thank you for sharing this. I grew up with Calvinism and my parents had best friends that were conservative pentacostals and free will....to the extreme. Where salvation can be lost and every single sin must be repented or Jesus won't allow you into heaven. Which is not a road I can walk! I'm now free of a majority of their life teachings and closer to Jesus. But I've also learned that talking about it, causes unnecessary strife between us. So I have to guard against talking marriage or child raising!

[@micahbush5397]

Neo-Calvinism is rigidly complementarian, yes, but there are numerous Reformed denominations that ordain women and are generally egalitarian.

[@DiGrace44]

@@micahbush5397That’s good to know.

[@sackettfamily4685]

@@micahbush5397 what would those be?

[@danicapapali7810]

On the hormones it’s sooo interesting, and scary and did she ever give birth to a biological child? I feel sooo badly for those who’ve been unable to bond/recover before welcoming another child.

[@alliematt1016]

No. She has never had children.

[@nursemarie4819]

She married in her late fifties

[@janet1744]

Jesus had emotions, He wept because Lazarus died. Jesus was angered because of "money changers" in the Temple, HE was angry and showed it.

[@denisethompson6014]

I am new to listening to your podcasts and was drawn to these since I have read Lies women Believe before. I agree that many of her points on living out the Christan life are skewed but cannot agree with your critique of how she presented the gospel. The book may be off but the description of the gospel reflected the Bible. God did not save us from feeling bad, but from the just wrath He has as a holy God due to our sins, not the bad way the sinful world impacts us. Yes He does love us as I john tells us again and again but He could not ignore our sin since He is holy. Your guest speaker said God was a monster more or less if He allowed or killed Jesus for our sins, which she does not to think matter enough to mention. I would think it more monstrous of God to forsake Jesus on the cross, as Jesus himself indicated in verses He quoted on the cross, just to heal me from hurts caused by this world and the sin in it. I am much more troubled by how that segment of the podcast addressed the gospel. It could be that in a bigger context your comments and the guest's would be understood a different way but I did not see that context in that section of the podcast. We both agree the gospel is foundational but I cannot agree with the presentation of the the gospel I heard on th7s podcast

[@beckycastlemiller]

Hi, Denise! If you’d like to understand the broader context of the way I talked about the Gospel, you could read the short book by New Testament scholar Scott McKnight called The King Jesus Gospel. Sheila linked to it in the show notes. Certainly Jesus made atonement for our sins through his death. He also liberated us from the powers of Sin and Death. God allowed Jesus to die and Jesus did give up his own life, but I think that is different from saying “God killed Jesus.” It’s more correct to say the Romans killed Jesus but this was part of God’s plan.

[@sherylj586]

So, is she "emotioally bypassing" by using Scripture??? Maybe... Or is she recommending that we believe truth that God has told and shown us, rather than giving in to emotions. We should not deny the emotions (thinking they are "bad"), but recognize and express them, then listen to truth God has mercifully shown us to help us. Many of the Psalms are like this. Overall though, I do agree that this book is to be avoided.

[@mgold7503]

I had that "glasses hinder my faith" mindset until I left home.

[@janet1744]

"To thine own self be true" a saying for women as well as men.

[@cweditor]

I also realize how selfish and self-absorbed Nancy Leigh DeMoss Wolgemuth is about herself and about how she views God, and it spills over into her advice to others. That's sad.

[@tomdg13]

44:14 you occasionally allude to the books that you wrote which you've since regretted writing / canceled / learned more than. Would it be good for you to expand on this a bit? I think the fact that you have gone on a journey and are able to look at things you wrote and say, this was wrong / harmful, is really positive, and I wonder if it would help the awesome work you are doing to talk in more detail about how you grew to where you are now?

[@aosidh]

The message of the Book of Job, which clearly figures heavily in the theology of this book, is one of the main reasons I reject the god of the bible.

[@geekcollage]

I really don't think she believes God loves women. Or people in general. Let alone herself.

[@janet1744]

God does not give depression. God provides doctors to heal our bodies. God provides his Son and Holy Spirit for us to get in touch with His mental/spiritual healing when we get into a fellowship with Him.

[@sherylj586]

I don't understand. Why did Jesus have to die for us if we are inherently good, as you seem to be saying? Acts 2.23 says that God delivered Jesus up to the Jews and Romans to be killed. Sounds like He "killed Jesus", i.e., it was His will and doing. "According to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God " I don't understand your gospel...

[@beckycastlemiller]

Hi, Sheryl, If you’d like to understand the broader context of the way I talked about the Gospel, you could read the short book by New Testament scholar Scot McKnight called The King Jesus Gospel. Sheila linked to it in the show notes. Certainly Jesus made atonement for our sins through his death. He also liberated us from the powers of Sin and Death. God allowed Jesus to die and Jesus did give up his own life, but I think that is different from saying “God killed Jesus.” It’s more correct to say the Romans killed Jesus but this was part of God’s plan.

[@DebbieSparrow]

You need to pray before you give your opinion on this book. Omgoodness, are you off on this book. You literally twisted what she wrote. WOW... NO, YOU GUYS have no history, lack of scripture understanding. JOHN 3:16 You shouldn't have a podcast. Your leading women the wrong way. 😢😢😢😢 Did you ever read where we have to die to the flesh.

[@SheilaWrayGregoire]

What you are doing here is an ad hominem attack, where you question us and our motives without dealing with the meat of our arguments. If you think we're wrong, that's fine. But please tell me the minute number where we have said something incorrect, and show us where our arguments were wrong, so we can talk about it. Calling people names is not talking about an argument, and you need to do better.