Life Gain - Failed Cards and Mechanics in MTG

[@calemr]

I describe lifegain as "The second best cost". Some cards activate when you sacrifice a creature. Some cards activate when you spend mana on them. And some cards activate when you gain life. You don't gain life with the goal of gaining life, you gain life so you can afford your Aetherflux Reservoir, to pump up your Ajani's Pridemate, or to hit Felidar Sovereign's win requirement.

[@TheyCallHimPogo]

This guy gets it!! Weaponized life gain is fine.

[@fwg1994]

Lifegain does have a place in midrange decks where, as opposed to aggro only caring about how much life loss it can cause in a turn, these decks care about creating as much of a life differential as possible. Drain effects and lifelink creatures can create huge swings that non-combo decks can't compete with. The most apparent of these is probably the Siege Rhino decks that completely warped formats back when that card first got printed. Gaining 3 life was absolutely instrumental to how powerful that card was, because the decks it went put you on a clock, and you had to deal 6 points of damage to reach parity with them, instead of just 3.

[@orangegalen]

Or to get your Serra Ascendant up and running as a 6/6 Lifelink Flying for 1 white. (Edit) Lol, didn't get to the point in the video where he mentions Ascendant

[@calemr]

@@orangegalen Yeah, exactly. I was just giving a few examples.

[@JaimeAGB-pt4xl]

Correct, the point is to get synergies to weaponize lifegain... However, gaining life on its own is very weak nonetheless which is the point of the video... Moreover, 3 cards to serve as wincons for said strategy of card types is Not enough to propel it as a powerful strat. More effects need to be printed that serve in lifegain strats (create tokens, draw, give keywords, actual damage or something) to make it stand with the other color identities... And I say this as a Lathiel player in commander

[@TheCoopman35]

Life gain has potential as long when it’s an added benefit for a spell or on creatures that trigger a lot just not as all a spell does

[@vxicepickxv]

You draw X cards and you gain X life is good because the life gain is incidental.

[@TheJcjonesacp]

Denis the Menace is a great example of what your saying (siege rhino)

[@ThePencilWizard]

Life gain as the Red-Eyes of mtg.

[@robertbcardoza]

Kitchen Finks was *bonkers*

[@tomzmatlik6890]

@LuckAmazing I got into platinum by just countering the deck. :D

[@TalynWulf]

Lifegain has always been one of the weirdest mechanics in any game. If all a card does is gain you life, it's crap. But, if it does some other stuff, then suddenly the lifegain can tip it from good to great! Because gaining life isn't BAD, it's just not advancing your game plan of WINNING, just makes you lose slower on its own.

[@KW-de9sc]

Well what about cards like angel of destiny or felidar sovereignty

[@KW-de9sc]

Also also it can completely shut down cloning decks

[@RocKM001]

@@KW-de9sc You missed the important part... "If all a card does is gain you life, it's crap" The Angel, Felidar and even Lifelink is Life Gain + "something else". Life gain by itself does nothing for your state. The best case scenario is the card gives you 1 extra turn to "maybe" top deck something that can swing the match. Most of the time gaining life by itself does *nothing* you would rather have that top deck in your hand instead of the card that does nothing for your board state. Life Gain + something else however is great Lifelink for example not only impacts board state since at best you take away life and gain life or take down a creature and gain life.

[@steakcrust558]

Disagree. Had a white life gain deck that could exile any real threat, mitigate any significant damage, and I was constantly gaining life and playing flying and vigilance creatures. This was 15 years ago so no specific cards, but that deck was awesome at tilting the others into making careless mistakes

[@yeasstt]

@@steakcrust558 that deck could've benefitted from removing the life gain effects and subbing in cards that actually improve your game state. Life Gain alone is objectively a bad effect. That deck probably worked because a lot of newer players can't deal with flying decks.

[@triox64]

That moment you realize you can counter Death’s Shadow with Healing Salve

[@Tera_GX]

It would be hilarious to see more of that designed into the game

[@ben_clifford]

Hate to be the "well actually" guy, but Healing Salve can't make an opponent gain life EDIT: I was wrong 😭

[@triox64]

@@ben_clifford reading the card explains the card. And, you did not read the card... also, I love Healing Leaves as a stoner, so....

[@friendlysnoworb6091]

@@ben_clifford do you understand what the mechanic "target player gains 3 life" means?

[@TwilightWolfi]

Gaining life depends on other cards. The gain in life is not what you want - you want what happens when you gain life.

[@Sanvone]

That's one way of looking at problem. The other is that as long as you don't die now, you are favoured to win later. Control Decks with board swipes make great use of it because of how they deny enemies their winning moves. If you don't commit enough they will live long enough to out-value you on their win-cons. If you overcommit, they will reset the game with board wipe. In this case you want to gain just enough live to be unkillable on any opponents next turn, in which you will be able to play catch-up card or deep draw into your deck more. Also against control - do you really want to counter my revitalize? Don't you expect lifegain pay off cards? What if I don't have any? What if I have? By the time opponents figures it out the game usually is out of their control, because I rapidly developed my board to the point his deck isn't able to match.

[@HanDaimond]

Yeah, drawing cards, burning your opponent or creatures, losing life or doubling the mana were already good effects on their own without depending on others. Lifegain isn't enough, but it feels good when you add another effect whenever it happens.

[@TheyCallHimPogo]

Aetherflux Reservoir, Test of Endurance, and Felidar Sovereign would like to have a word...

[@analyticalj8687]

Felidar Sovereign and Test of Endurance were designed around the standard 20 starting life total and only really shines in commander where it starts at double. as for aetherflux reservoir, that thing is crazy but i dont think it falls under the lifegain archetype, rather something like storm or eggs.

[@TheyCallHimPogo]

@@analyticalj8687 I know that. My point is if a strategy is viable in EDH then you can't say it is a failed mechanic. Beast Within is a terrible removal spell in 60 card formats, but you can't say it's a bad card when it's a staple in commander decks running green. Then again we shouldn't really be listening to someone who can't correctly pronounce Necropotence or Abzan either so...

[@ICantThinkOfAFunnyHandle]

@@TheyCallHimPogo I know this might be a crazy thing to say, but not everyone talks specifically about how cards preform in EDH

[@Layaway_Virgin]

Congregate

[@kennydarmawan13]

@@TheyCallHimPogo Saying a card in MtG isn't bad because it sees play in EDH is like saying a card or mechanic in Yu-Gi-Oh! isn't bad because it sees play in Duel Links. When TheManaLogs says a mechanic is failed, it's failed to see use in competitive formats or is just not fun to use.

[@Narakiomal]

"aBAzan" Ascendancy at 5:14 really hurt me lol XD Also "neCRÓpotence" later on at 9:25 also dealt a big blow oof.

[@casmiry]

yeah, it is so disappointing when content creators do not proof read their scripts. i mean.. come on..

[@SamChaneyProductions]

Don't forget "Astral recall"!

[@ich3730]

@@casmiry top 10's with minimal effort are a clean way to make money i guess :D also good business that he spread out his channel over other games but with the same lazy format. Its really quite genius

[@goaway5297]

I know this guy primarily as Hirumared, a WoW content creator. He does the same shit there. I genuinely think he's just incapable of pronouncing some things.

[@EddieSmyth-oh7fu]

🤣🤣🤣

[@TheKillerman3333]

Having played a mono white deep draw deck, I can say that life gain is very powerful. Life gain is normally a side mechanic in a combo. Mono white deep draw had life gain and draw on multiple cards. A card like rejuvenation is a great example of this. Gain three draw one. There is also life gain clerics in orzo colors.

[@notmychannelname42]

Angel's Mercy should have said...Gain 7 life and tap all of your opponent's creatures until the end of turn.

[@natemiles7117]

Eh, tap all is alot for four mana. Untap one target creature you control gain 5 life would be more balanced

[@notmychannelname42]

@@natemiles7117 I'm basing it off of Bond of Discipline which is only 1 mana more.

[@tonysmith9905]

@@natemiles7117 Sleep implies gaining 7 life and tapping all creatures for 4 mana would be fair, since Sleep is also 4 mana but taps them and makes them not untap next turn.

[@jordanbrulez717]

Sounds like a six to seven mana card.

[@jadegrace1312]

@@jordanbrulez717 No that could definitely be 4 mana. Cryptic command is 4 mana and is way stronger

[@TheEmperorGulcasa]

It’s worth knowing that life gain is only really bad when that’s all the card does. Lifegain stapled onto other stuff can be amazing in any race scenario. Just look at like Kitchen Finks. The fact that it gains you 4 life while being a recurring solidly priced beater makes him an amazing swing in the life race. As a bonus effect tacked onto other reasonably priced stuff, life gain can be amazing.

[@nanya524]

You should have mentioned the win cons like Felidar Sovereign, Aetherflux Reservoir and Test of Endurance. Those are the big payoffs for gaining tons of life.

[@vincentvanhoutan2837]

No their really not they ONLY are even close to playable in commander and in no other format and in commander felidar sovereign is frowned upon at that and atherflux reservoir is legitimately better in storm or eggs then lifegain

[@God-ch8lq]

@@vincentvanhoutan2837 soul sisters

[@tonysmith9905]

@@vincentvanhoutan2837 Lifegain decks are purely casual bait any ways, so why are you getting all in a fuss on being only viable in commander?

[@euqinemor]

@@vincentvanhoutan2837 There's combos that make you gain huge amounts of life using artherflux to kill your opponent the moment it hits the board, instantly winnning the game if the oponnent is inside the dmg range.

[@rockwarlock9573]

Not even mentioning the bond blood combo which is usually one of the first ones people learn

[@TSebster9]

Another thing worth mentioning is that a lot of black and white cards pair gaining life with the opponent losing life

[@rajamicitrenti1374]

One of the big problems with Lifegain is just what it does to the fun factor if a game if it is too strong, which I imagine is why it has always struggled to be allowed to be good on it's own. If lifegain ever gets to the point where lifegain is good for lifegain's sake, it creates a situation where games perpetually stall out in competative play and no one wins.

[@Tryptic214]

I think it's funny how drastically different the power level is between different lifegain mechanics. One card might gain you 7 life. The next (Celestial Mantle) in the right deck (Skyhunter Skirmisher) might quadruple your life total each turn. I can confirm that I did this once and yes, it did make the game very unfun until I died to mill with over 1000 health. And this wasn't even in Commander, where the starting 40 life makes the former even weaker and the latter even stronger. We just haven't gotten many lifegain cards that are in the middle, neither pitifully weak or potentially gamebreaking. We need more cards like Ordeal of Heliod, which I consider a perfect middle ground.

[@mor4439]

Youre describing arena standard for the past year before rotation

[@youngthinker1]

Most mechanics in MTG serves to teach new and old players a new dimension of play. Life gain serves to teach two lessons. The first, is that board state matters far more than life total. The second, you can still lose with infinite life. However, most players end up falling into a trap of avoiding life gain cards due to the two prior lessons. For example, I ran Fog in my mono-green tron deck back in 2016. The idea was to help my deck buy time till I placed game ending threats on board. It also helped that Fog tended to stuff certain aggressive decks which rely on state-based effects to kill you. It effectively traded a card for life, towards the gamble of my big threats beating your many small threats. Is Fog optimal? Probably not, but if Moment of Peace was in Modern, then you would see far more Fog-like effects in big mana decks.

[@EliTheGleason]

It's wacky that it's sorta become the "generic trigger" combo effect, lime the effect on its own is so small that you make it valuable by having it trigger other things, and since the small thing it gives you is simply more time to run the engine it's an oddly fitting place for the mechanic

[@GoofballGorgon]

I'm glad you brought up the syngeries because of the card Wellwisher, which gains you life equal to the number elves on the battlefield. Thus, I'd be more surprised you didn't mention that card in the video than I am because it's just a 1/1 for 1G that dies to practically anything unless you have a card like Akroma's Memorial (protection from black/red, among other abilities) or Coat of Arms (+1/+1 for each other creature on the BF that shares at least one type with it) portecting it.

[@thomasfplm]

This video makes me think about another video I saw once about clerics in D&D and how people using them and their spells just for healing are not playing them to their true potential strengths. That video changed the way I saw clerics and later I played a cleric that would tank better than both melee combatants of the party.

[@matthewgagnon9426]

Clerics in 3.5 were *way* better off just murdering all of the opposition than they are in spending a turn in healing someone. They were one of the most powerful classes in the game and could be massively better at melee combat than the Fighter or Barbarian could ever hope to be while also having enormously broader utility. But they were playtested with the expectation that they'd mostly just be healing, with utility and buff spells only occasionally happening. Same with Wizards, they were playtested with the expectation that all they were using was Fireball, so the absurd strength of the utility spells was missed entirely.

[@balrogdahomie]

I agree with a lot of people in the comments here (and yourself in the video) that this isn’t 100% a failed mechanic, just a niche mechanic that was underpowered and overused for too long. Still, that’s a bit of a nitpick, and the video covered all the information fairly well. I feel like the term “failed mechanic” is a little bit less useful in MTG than YGO, because of the breadth of different formats mechanics can perform differently in; a mechanic being good in one draft environment, but completely uncompetitive in every other format, wouldn’t generally be considered “failed” by wizards or the players, as long as it was still fun and engaging for its purpose. But I suppose we are literally arguing semantics at that point. If you continue this series, here are some failed mechanics I’d like to see you cover: • Companions - everyone’s already asked you to cover this one so I won’t belabor the point • Banding and Bands with Other - The mechanic so complicated that most top level players didn’t know what it did when asked at a tournament. • Gotcha! From Unglued - a bit weird to put a joke set mechanic in here, but at the same time, it’s a joke set mechanic that punishes players for laughing. It actively works counter to what the set is trying to do. • Landwalk and some other color dependent effects (terror/fear, etc) - these are very rarely used now as they can lead to uninteractive, unfun games. • Partner - A commander mechanic that, in its initial form, was FAR too powerful, enabling players to easily run extremely powerful commander decks of many colors. It’s been semi-“fixed” now, with the introduction of Partner With, and the new partners being mono color. • Arcane/Splice onto Arcane - this is a big one, and was considered a big lesson for wizards about “parasitic mechanics”; mechanics that don’t interact with cards without the mechanic well, making the mechanic need more cards printed with it to be useful. • Epic - a mechanic that makes the rest of the game pretty boring for the player who uses it • Fateseal - just results in feel-bad moments

[@Silverhawk100]

There was a period (Innistrad/Return to Ravnica/Theros) where Wizards was experimenting with how much raw lifegain on a card was too much. I remember drafting a lifegain deck mostly of cards that did other things AND gained life, but ran at least 2 raw gain x life cards. It was the only time I had an opponent say "I can't keep up with your life gain."

[@NotSoSerious69420]

Uro is a perfect example of what incidental lifegain does. If Uro didn’t also gain life it would still be busted but by gaining life it’s REALLY busted.

[@leftysheppey]

I remember in khan's standard, decks were running feed the clan to help them stabilise against mono red. Worked very well, especially with siege Rhino. Resolving a siege Rhino as a time walk turn 4 was great, and following it up with feed the clan was winning the game

[@bluemanblue2316]

I'd love more videos like this. Going deep into certain mechanics, and why they work/don't.

[@christopherpoet458]

3:00 - I am going to watch this through, but I am already seeing a counter-argument to this. So far in these first three minutes, the main point of the failure of Life Gain has been its effect on Card Advantage and its typical result in only delaying an inevitable outcome. To which I have not only personally witnessed the opposite, but know of several cards that utilize Life Gain triggers to improve board advantage. My best deck built on Life Gain was in the past rotation in two forms. Mono White Angels and White/Green Angels. The decks were mostly the same with the only variation being that the White/Green deck included green sources and 4 copies of Collected Company. The Deck remained mostly (with 1 exception but varied between players) Angel Tribal and would become brutally aggressive by no later than turn 4 in most games, resulting not only in a Life Gain Engine that was very difficult to shut down but also in spawning 4/4 Angel Tokens. The decks core cards were all a cmc of 3, and with a 2 drop tribal angel being added later that would just further push the decks aggression, it made the deck a prime target to have CoCo variants that were equally effective. Prior to this, I had an enchantment focused deck with a mix of artifacts that created a small steady life gain engine every turn. Among the cards were several enchantments (most being 3 or 4 mana) that would trigger a token spawn as long as X life was gained. Some creatures also possessed that ability, most notable Resplendant Angel. In both the deck above and in this deck, I would also see copies of the Sun God who would turn life gain triggers into +1/+1 counters. All of which, ultimately, accumulates to either having an overwealing boardstate that is hard to keep in check because the engines are easily re-ignited or with such a stark difference in life, it was only a matter of time before the engine kicked off again and you were back to dealing with the fruits of the engine's labors. And that is not included several cards that allow you to draw cards when gaining life. Typically at the cost of mana but usually that can be waved aside with a solid engine in play. So, at the moment I have currently marked, I have to strongly disagree that Life Gain is ultimately just a play to stall. Perhapse in the past yes, but I will watch further to see if what I just mentioned comes into question and if not, then I may need to post several deck lists here of Life Engine decks that have proven to be brutal advisories. They aren't invonerable. No deck ever is. But they have defiantly made some of the players at my table take the mechanic a bit more seriously than they used too. EDIT: Okay, I do not feel so bad about this now. You had a very misleading into and I was expecting the whole video to just be bashing the life-gain mechanic. Glad I was wrong. I will in part agree, its still not as previlant or as strong as Wizards may have intended, but I think this is also good. Life gain, on its own, we can all agree is pointless without something to sync with it. And I think it really does work best in a deck that does sync with it. I have played a few myself like the ones above.

[@allobonjour9761]

I think what white's identity should be is taxing and stax since it already does it so well with all the thalia, drannith, ghostly prison, smothering tithe, etc

[@superbaas8822]

Best part is that Wizards tried to backpedal and say that "Ancestral Recall was supposed to be rarer than the others, so it needed to be better to get excited about pulling it." Not realizing there are documented spoilers of Ancestral having a common's pull rate, same as Salve.

[@Sehon13Ultd]

Where are those spoilers documented?

[@ich3730]

ah the typical "their is proof for my claim, but im not gonna show you the proof, just believe me"

[@fernandobanda5734]

This is completely false lol

[@shankar3651]

My first MtG deck was mono green lifegain and I brought it to a local tournament. I had no idea I had illegal cards in my deck until a judge told me in the middle of the round, my table was the last match left, and the crowd groaned as I gained a billion life per turn but I had no other wincons except fat creatures. I accidentally made a mockery out of the game and completely humiliated myself in front of God and everyone, but they still let me play even when they could have just as easily disqualified me. I had to learn all of the important lessons about the game the hard way and all at once, but I have no regrets. Thank you, lifegain.

[@joseph1150]

Martyr of Sands was part of a relatively short lived in standard deck that used Proclamation of Rebirth/Adarkar Valkyrie/Debtor's Knell with Martyr of Sands to gain a bunch of life. It was called Snow White and lasted not too long but it was effective for a couple weeks during that particular time in Magic (late 2006).

[@JaimeAGB-pt4xl]

Gaining life on its own is very weak nonetheless which is the point of the video. Lifegain weponizing (which is the key) is still lacking... Moreover, 3 cards to serve as wincons for said strategy of card types is Not enough to propel it as a powerful strat. More effects need to be printed that serve in lifegain strats (create tokens, draw, give keywords, actual damage or something) to make it stand with the other color identities... And I say this as a Lathiel player in commander

[@zyxaqc]

My first deck was a white life gain deck that was almost unbeatable in 2v2 games. Most of the life gain effects came from interactions with other cards like playing creatures or existing for too long. Having another player on my team with a strong front game allowed me to play the long game by racking up tons of life and converting that into an advantage later. Serra Avatar & Akroma's Memorial were a fantastic pair that won me a lot of games by letting me throw an flying 90/90 at my friends that they couldn't respond to because they mostly played black decks. Also being able to transform Chalice of Life on the same turn it's played was fun.

[@tcoren1]

6:22 "astral" recall

[@davidvonjohnston]

My main deck in modern was Soul Sisters. Fun deck that just gains so much life that burn scoops turn 2 sometimes

[@tritra63]

Well, Martyr of Sands was very good in Mono-White control and could be recycled with Proclamation of Rebirth, Serra's Ascendant was a nice addition but absolutely not necessary. Also, Necropotence wasn't a great card by itself, the deck was great because of the lifegain cards in it (Ivory Tower, Zuran Orb, Drain Life) which helped to constantly refill your hand while keeping a stable life total.

[@Atmapalazzo]

Funny that necropotence is an example of a way to make a lifegain payoff. Though the problem tends to be that if the cost of life is low, you just run the card without lifegain.

[@joebaumgart1146]

People think it's useless until they play my deck that has weaponized life gain and to a game breaking degree. I once got up to 40,963 life before my opponent scooped. Also 4 copies of Serra Avatar, 4 copies of Flourishing Hunter, and 4 copies of Chandra's Ignition. It's not useless it just needs to be weaponized.

[@brendanwright1038]

I have one lifegain card that I actually really like in my mono green commander deck, its called predators rapport and for three mana i gain life equal to the power + the toughness of a creature i control, because my deck has huge creatures (my commander is ghalta primal hunger) i often get 20+ life for three mana and that is usually on the low end. its not the best card in my deck but i eally like it.

[@jaythepizza7600]

In commander, life is both more and less relevant

[@AlbRomano]

@@jaythepizza7600 the duality of man, commander edition

[@seanmurphy6034]

Momentous Fall has entered the chat.

[@endlesswaffles6504]

In a commander game, a guy threw his whole board at me and I used a card that converted the potential damage to health. At the end of the turn I had 156 life. He killed me by just hitting me a few more times.

[@AlphaLanguste]

I don't think the issue is lifegain in itself. rather that each lifepoint doesn't matter so much so the cost is simply too high on most pure lifegain spells. imagine Healing Salve gave you 100 Life. That would probably be pretty OP for the cost of 1 mana and 1 card. So the balance is probably somewhere between 3 and 100 Life for one mana and one card. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

[@TheBalthassar]

If they thought Ancestral Recall and Healing Salve were equally powerful they would have put them at the same rarity, which they didn't.

[@AwakenedAvocado]

Lightning bolt is the best

[@stickofbutter4144]

Even if your channel is new, your are making some of the best mtg content out there. Keep up the great work! One recommendation is to maybe redo some audio, as sometimes you mispronounce some words like abzan, and ancestral, but still great work!

[@DiminutiveJerry]

He plays yugioh and has a similar channel for it, he has a pro magic player write the scripts

[@collinbeal]

It's good, but riddled with small errors, like saying Soul Sisters gains you life whenever a creature enters the battlefield under your control. There are around 5 or so errors on how a card is used or what it says every video, and just as many flubbed pronunciations, so a good 1/3 of the video would need reworked. It's too obvious that they don't know much about MtG themselves. I like the content, and it's a good waste of time, but comparing it with heavy hitters like Rhystic Studies or Spice8Rack, who really go the extra mile on research and presentation, is going a bit far.

[@bbouncy12]

I think it's worth mentioning that incidental lifegain on gold cards generally makes those cards hyper-playable. Loxodon hierarch, lightning helix, siege rhino, RTR Obzedat, hydroid krasis, sphinx's revelation are all examples of maybe slightly mana:stat inefficient cards that still towered over competing slots due to the tacked on lifegain. I think it would be deceptively easy for WotC to make straight up broken lifegain cards if they aren't super careful with the numbers.

[@ericcox970]

Never heard someone pronounce necropotence like that before.

[@SuPeRHeRoDuDe3124]

Right?

[@verververververver]

Dude cannot read

[@dismasthepenitent569]

Lifegain is absolutely relevant, but only against decks that have a tempo based wincon like aggro or some midrange decks. Against a control or combo deck that doesn't really care about your life total, it's pretty bad, but gaining 2 life can often make the crucial difference that helps you stabilize against an aggro deck. I think that lifegain cards tend to be better in Standard than eternal formats because Wizards rarely prints viable combos into standard, meaning lifegain is actually going to matter in a lot of matchups. I splashed green in my standard Oni-Cult Anvil deck specifically to run Gala Greeters, and it has consistently been one of the best cards in the deck against aggro and decks with Sheoldred, mostly because of the lifegain mode. Even though lifegain is usually only playable if it's tacked onto another card that gives you additional value, pure lifegain cards have actually seen some amount of play, such as Nourishing Shoal in Modern Reanimator/Through the Breach and Weather the Storm in Pauper Turbofog (though I guess it may be telling that to make pure lifegain good, you have to attach it to a busted mechanic like free spells or storm).

[@craigstuckey319]

Holy shit. The way he said "Necropotence" too. I don't know if I can finish this video now. 2 strikes. You're on thin ice!

[@seliphsnom2596]

When I heard "infinite life gain combo" my mind went to heliod sun crowned + walking ballista/triskellion which is infinite damage and infinite life gain since the combo shown while yes gives you "infinite life" alot of decks can just beat you down before you can get to that combo since it's a combo that requires you to have 2 realitivaly high cmc cards where as the heliod and walking ballista combo only requires you to have the mana to cast heliod and walking ballista x=2 which is pretty easy to get off the it was a deck a while ago back in pioneer called Heliod's company

[@williamfarias7068]

I actually built a commander deck around life gain. My commander is Athreos and the big combo in it is cliffhaven vampire and exquisite blood. I add a trigger, like tanglebloom to start the combo and win by dealing damage to my opponents as I gain life.

[@chriswarren7171]

I think the issue here is a difference in tournament type play vs just having casual fun with friends. Back in the day I had a lifegain/protection deck built around clerics. It isn't something that would be viable competitively but it was still a lot of fun to play.

[@themantyf1116]

Cards like Serra Ascendant could have actually have been a nice way to make life gain matter, by making your life TOTAL matter for effect it would make those cards matter to your board state. The issue being, of course, that would require those decks to play under basically different rules than all the others, and the card would need to be really OP to balance those effects. And they would be very vulnerable since they would either be in a very good spot or very bad spot. And they would need to be balanced around commander now. Honestly, the real fix would have just been giving life gain and life cost to the same color in the beginning (which would have made sense), but it's too late now.

[@jaxsonbateman]

I can't speak for competitive decks, but you can definitely make some decent casual decks using the lifegain + additional effects/strategies these days. On arena too many players opt to just go for the 'growers' strategy (cards like Ajani Pridemate that get counters when you gain life), which is IMO just too weak overall - those creatures don't have evasion, and die to basically every form of non-damage removal. I have two decent historic decks myself that include lifegain as a big feature - one is one that has a lot of the good 1 mana life-focused creatures (like Ascendant and the dude that taps to make angel tokens), as well as the 3 mana enchantment that either gains a life on your end step, or returns a 1CMC creature from your graveyard to the battlefield. The other is a monowhite control deck that uses Fountain of Renewal (1 mana artifact that gains 1 life each upkeep, and can be sacced for 3 mana to draw a card in a pinch) and Dawn of Hope as a card value engine. Fountain of Renewal is a surprisingly good 1 drop against aggressive decks, and syncing it up with Dawn of Hope helps you get to those sweepers that will keep the opponent out of the game.

[@janehates]

I have made an Abzan life gain deck work, but that was because I also included a lot of cards that cost life as well. It designed around actively using life as a resource. I mean it also helps that it has Siege Rhinos in it, which at the time at least was considered a pretty busted card…

[@redmageviewer]

I also have an Abzan lifegain deck. But it uses Creatures that have either Lifelink or have a gain life trigger with creatures that add +1/+1 counters to themselves. And having cards that draw cards and lose life are pretty good as they are more mana efficient.

[@GCarssow]

It's sort of funny to hear someone talk about how White has a reputation for being the weakest color in Magic. As someone who started playing in the mid-90s, Green was considered by far the weakest color. The running gag was "the Magic Color Pie consists of 4 colors...and then there's Green".

[@TransformersBoss]

One big weakness for life-gain you didn’t explicitly mention is that it’s pretty much worthless if your opponent isn’t trying to win by damage. Infect, Mill, alt-win cards, and even Commander Damage all make life-gain, even infinite life-gain, completely pointless

[@nyllet41]

My favorite color in magic is white and black in second place. I'm a big fan of white black decks too. I sometimes play a black white Life Gain burn deck it does a lot of damage but takes a while to set up. you need cards like Vito thorn of the dusk rose or Sanguine bond . which causes any Life Gain you get to be dealt to the opponent as damage.

[@hallaloth3112]

W/B Lifegain is, perhaps my favorite deck to run on Arena? I may need to switch up the commander I use for Brawl, right now its Liesa, Forgotten Archangel.

[@amaya6091]

My personal favorite decks are essentially “fuck you” decks aka something happens this thing happens for example casting a spell playing a creature attacking beginning of turn end of turn creature dies etc etc you lose 1 or more life i gain 1 or more life or same for mill possibly card draw you make it you could probably build a “fuck you” deck around it

[@hammycan]

Boon Reflection is uniquely bad because you have to go out of your way to make it do anything, whereas the other four cards in the cycle double things that most decks will do naturally; you'll probably draw cards, you'll probably tap for mana, you'll probably play creatures, and you'll probably deal damage. You won't often be gaining life, unless you build for it.

[@TheWolfDawg]

Here's a card idea that might make life gain pretty strong: Once per turn you can cast a creature from your hand with cmc equal to the amount of life gained this turn without payings its mana cost. Definitely not balanced, but some form of this could be balanced yet strong

[@fernandobanda5734]

Fast mana is one of the strongest mechanics, to the point that just a single extra mana warps Standard. Life gain is so cheap numberswise (you can easily get 8 or 10 for two mana in a spell, or 3-4 in a card that's already good) that trying to equate it to mana acceleration seems dangerous no matter what. Unless it was extremely capped and non-linear like "When you gain life for the first time in a turn, add one mana of any color. This ability only triggers once each turn.", I really can't see it unless the card is already an unplayable 8-mana creature.

[@michaelk6071]

They just printed a very similar card- Celestine, the Living Saint who reanimates a creature with cmc less than or equal to the amount of life you gained once per end step. It's going for ~$10 now.

[@TheWolfDawg]

@@fernandobanda5734 oh yeah, I knew my idea wasn't balanced at all, but I figured there could be a way to cap it or balance it in a way that makes it good but not broken and is a good combo piece for the life gain mechanic. To play of your idea, could have it that the first time you gain life in a turn gives you a counter, then you can tap+remove x counters to get x mana of any color

[@fernandobanda5734]

@@TheWolfDawg The only issue I would see is that ramping up isn't really white, so it might have to be a green-white card. But as Michael mentioned, the graveyard works perfectly for white, with that card Celestine.

[@tonysmith9905]

Actually this seems like a perfectly fine card depending on the enabler's mana cost. It could be an artifact or an enchantment with a mana cost of 4. Since to actually cheat any thing large out you'd have to either player really bad life gain cards, or build a board of enough life gain procs that you're probably already winning since it's all sticking. So yeah, this actually seems totally fine.

[@krankarvolund7771]

Note that despite Bolt being the more balanced one, new burn cards are either 1R for 3 or R for 2, there's no more R for 3 in standard as far as I know ^^

[@yeasstt]

You should do a Failed Cards on Shrines! They're some of the most fun cards to play imo (a lot of beginner players have no idea how to deal with Sanctum of All), but are pretty bad competitively for MANY reason

[@williamdrum9899]

They were bad when only 5 existed but they got a lot more support lately

[@yeasstt]

@@williamdrum9899 even now, they're very vulnerable. Artifacts and enchantments are generally very easy to get rid of, and none of the shrines have any protection

[@Crockist]

I don't think I'd exactly call this a "failed" mechanic. It's more like a boon which increases the worth of a card. For example, Jungle Hollow is strictly better than Foul Orchard because of lifegain. Lifegain is definitely an important part of the game. However, like a lot of TCGs, you can't win if you're playing cards which only gain you life with no other upside.

[@MetalPheonix]

Life gain is great, if you have a use for it. I always explain life gain to new players as "it gets you further from losing, but it doesn't get you closer to winning, and your goal is to win." Obviously this is a lie when a deck capitalizes on the life it gains, like with aetherflux reservoir, or things that trigger on life gain like sanguine bond type effects. But life gain itself, as the payoff, isn't worth it without a reason. I often use the recent Decayed zombies as a parallel to lifegain. the decayed zombies, mostly, don't do enough, so they can be stuck onto almost identical versions of existing spells (in terms of cost and effect) but also leave you with a bonus decayed zombie, it's not enough on it's own, it's just that nice little bonus that usually won't matter. (usually, unless the deck is trying to capitalize on it)

[@averysketchygamer3241]

Angel of Destiny is by far my favorite card to use with Lifegain-Oriented decks. It adds a lot of aggro and purpose to Lifegain, and in some color combo decks, you can run it with things like Insurrection, making it incredibly fun to take control of your opponent's creatures, then group hug Lifegain yourself to winning while they don't have blockers

[@breloopharos1919]

This is why i like Angel tribal decks, they make life gain a requirement to activate some abilities.

[@krgood9008]

I just played a mono white giada lifegain Angels deck and steamrolled my buddy’s printed $2500 mirrym Sentinel worm deck, as well as an elf deck led by latheil, and a Krenko Goblin deck. In commander. Second game fought scarb god krenko and mirrym again and won then too. Do not underestimate lifegain.

[@braverzero3709]

This is really SO FUNNY Cause when I first started with MTG in 2017/ 2018, I was seriously HATING Ajani Pridesmate / Impassioned orator. Almost every game. Love your vids. This one Idk I'm a victim of lifegain

[@romanninjaprincess4477]

There are also cards like Sanguine bond or Vito which turn your lifegain into damage as well.

[@Velocity_Eleven]

the way I've always explained it is that gaining life straight up is a one time effect but having a permanent on the board (or removing one of your opponents) has an ongoing effect... and lifegain was something that allured me when I started playing around 2014... but I wonder what the threshold would be where something that is pure life gain would be considered "good" seeing as you could just make the numbers bigger.

[@EntropyGuardian]

Back I played one of my favorite combos was Well of Lost Dreams and Words of Worship

[@dennisyoung6122]

The main problem still is that white doesn't have a way to use life as a resource. That is only in black, as well as the rare phyrexian mana card.

[@punkypinko2965]

Good points. Thanks. But I don't play any cards that just gain life. I play some life gain cards to have triggers so I get the life over and over AND it's usually a creature card, which also has a life gain trigger. I agree: a sorcery or instant card that just gains you 5 life is terrible.

[@slightly_confused_angel]

As someone who runs Lathiel, the Bounteous Dawn in Commander, I think lifegain is a devastating mechanic. :D

[@giovanni385]

I think you are missing one part of gaining life. When you play a lifegain deck in Magic, the sinergies and combos take some time to set up even when the decks are built like Aggro decks, the advantage of lifegain there is that they can just let the damage go trough many times and preserve their sinergy creatures instead of having to block, and thats an advantage that lifegain decks have because of the lifegain itself. The other thing is that Lifegain can be very broken in some cards as the additional effect. for the last few years in Standart, the meathook is a good example, the card won matches that were almost lost because the lifegain keept the player alive and took him out of risk. Lifegain is not great but it can be very good these days.

[@pepperypeppers2755]

Lifegain teaches new players that life isn't a scoreboard, it's a resource. All bad cards are valuable, even if they only teach you what a bad card is. Doesn't need to be "fixed"

[@Gretchaninov]

The problem with life gain is that it's passive. The best defence is to attack. Gaining life only really buys you time, but since players usually develop their power exponentially (or at least quadratically) as a game progresses, that life gain is very temporary. Even gaining 7 life is not that good if your opponent is moving into their 6th or 7th turn and are starting to have multiple creatures with power above 5. Destroying a creature or making your opponent discard a card or dealing damage are much more useful as they slow them down, protect you and bring you closer to victory.

[@yaboityler2617]

Its all about the secondary effect. If a blue deck only draws cards and nothing else, its garbage. Same with green and adding extra mana. If all you do is keep ramping mana, you won't win. Gaining life it does nothing on its own, you have to syngerize it with the rest of your deck.

[@MagicalEmma6]

The difference is that it's a lot easier to have something better to help you win the game if you're drawing more cards or making more mana. Drawing extra helps you find your threats while extra mana helps you cast more/bigger threats. In order for life gain to do the same thing, you have to be specifically playing cards that give you extra benefit from gaining life, which limits your options more.

[@fernandobanda5734]

Nobody's saying that the entire deck only gains life or draws cards. But a single cards that only draws cards, even badly costed like 3U for 2 cards, is miles better than an aggressively costed life gain card like 1W for 8 life.

[@antaresmaelstrom5365]

I like playing commander decks with an incidental lifegain submechanic. But then usually several of my opponents just throw out their erebos and that goes away.

[@dustinmartin648]

I don't know why but gaining life is my FAVORITE thing to do in this game 🤣 & I think it's funny when people ask me why would I do that or tell me that the way I play the game is strictly worse. A BUNCH of people oftentimes forget to have fun when they play Magic, especially in a casual setting. I just finished a deck purpose built for gaining life. If I lose? No problem. Did I hit 150? 200? 400 life that game? I 100% consider that a win, because more than likely I had a crazy fun time gaining all that life. I have 4 ways to win and I've cut almost everything else out to make more room to gain life. Abzan colors for the best life gain & payoffs, running Ghave as my commander. WinCons are: Running amuck with creatures with +1 +1 counters. I also have Spike Feeder & Heliod or Thune for going infinite + Walking Balista for when I do. Exquisite Blood & multiple cards that are basically Sanguine Bond. & Aetherflux Reservoir so when I hit 151 life, I'll drop 150 & ping everyone for 50. & that's it! Update: Added Felidar Sovereign just for the occasional free win 😂

[@hallaloth3112]

Wait, I'm not the only one that runs a Ghave deck? I lean more heavily on the +1/+1 counter than on life gain, but at the time when I constructed it Archangel of Thune was the most expensive single I bought because there is /some/ life gain in the deck.

[@dustinmartin648]

@@hallaloth3112 Haha, not anymore! Just built it and played against my wife and I had a blast! Absolutely one of my favorite commanders now!

[@Zinras]

It's actually pretty weird that Wizards never realized that if life gain is to work, it needs to be spent on something: Basically, moving life cost to white as well which would still fit with its biblical themes. That way, white could have a unique focus on an extra resource other decks could only sparingly use. Imagine a universe where mana might be the minor resource, used for setting up chains of life related shenanigans.

[@fernandobanda5734]

Black is filling that role currently, which seems more fitting. White having incidental life gain without paying it (not very frequently at least) makes it feel different.

[@MrUploader14]

i think life gain is underrated as it's great as a supplementary ability to stretch out the game for Mono white control or Selesnya control. Like in a deck i built where i used a combo of soul warden, ajani's pridemate, voice of the blessed and light of promise and added those with a bunch of life gain cards. i gain life and don't block while my creatures get bigger and i use a combo of exile, hexproof and indestructible to protect my creatures. Life gain is good it's just that many MTG players use it incorrectly. you also forgot the infamous Orzhov Gain and Drain decks.

[@michaelbowman6684]

I'd be curious to see an analysis comparing Life Gain in Magic to Hearthstone, about what the differences are and what lessons each game could learn from the other to improve their own Life Gain mechanics.

[@williamdrum9899]

In hearthstone, gaining armor doesn't cost you a card since it's your hero power. That's why it's good there. If you had no way to gain armor without losing card advantage, armor would have failed as a mechanic.

[@4137Swords]

A card that gains life and does nothing else sucks, just like in Yugioh, though not as much. But cards that gain life and do something else, like getting counters or dealing damage at the same time are much better, or Lifelink.

[@chompythebeast]

Lifegain becomes good when its passive and one card gets a lot of mileage, especially in singleton formats like EDH. Sun Droplet in a crowded game can put you pretty far ahead to the point where some players won't bother attacking non-general damage. Then Lifegain is also pretty cool on auras and equipments with other stuff going on, as that can gain kinda double the life total swing on an opponent in a way that sticks around. Then you have the rare effects that make Life Gain go Bigmode like Alhammarret's Archive and Well of Lost Dreams, a couple of cards that certainly have high ceilings in certain EDH decks. Overall it is definitely a noob favorite, but it's for that reason that it's slept on just a little bit more than it should be, in casual formats especially. It can be a fun sub theme for a mono white deck of something like that, if for no other reason that it's some of the whitest sh*t you can possibly do in Magic

[@Lumavah]

I think Lifegain is better when it's a passive, continual effect. Like Oloro. Mitigates damage and forces your opponent to stay on the offensive if they lack something that doesn't care about your life total and it doesn't really affect your card advantage one in effect.

[@melvinshine9841]

Kind of figured Life Gain would be bad for the same reason it is in Yugioh. Just gaining life, and nothing else, doesn't help you win. I don't even play or really understand Magic and I can see why Boon Reflection is terrible. You'd have to play that, then play something that actually gives life, wasting two cards instead of just one for a payoff that's not worth it. Those other Reflection cards don't, initially, do anything, but you *want* to draw more cards, get more Mana, or deal more damage. With Boon, you'd have to play a minimum two cards to do mostly nothing.

[@thelastrebel13]

Life gain is actually playable in magic and is used in combos quite often hes just showing really bad cards and not actually reasons for life gain being bad imo, there's tons of payoffs for being at high life totals

[@fernandobanda5734]

@@thelastrebel13 He did talk about those and complimented decks that have used them. They're still not the best decks.

[@thelastrebel13]

@@fernandobanda5734 yeah the point I was trying to make (and failing) is lifegain is way more playable in magic than it is in yugioh

[@XenithShadow]

You correctly identified that pure life gain is bad cause it doesn't progress the game state. Although generally lifegain stapled onto other cards tend to be insanely powerful. I remeber nyx fleece ram being pretty good v.s aggro. Obstinante baloth and thragtusk come to mind as other card like this. The bigger issue is that generally white life gain is not in this form as much, although they do have pay offs for gain life or being aboe a specific ammount of life. Angelss in explorers is pretty much a life gain deck gaining sometimes up to 20 life every turn. Pure life gain is bad though, life gain plus something else is in alot of cases good (unless the card was unplayable to start with in which case wasn't really the fault of the life gain)

[@Garl_Vinland]

It’s cyclical though. Sure black gives a ton of card advantage, but I end up losing the most with black because my opponent can just aggro me down. Black was good in competetive because players didn’t go with creatures as much due to fear of removal

[@taken_over3416]

I got to the very bottom of mythic rank on MTGA with an Angel tribal deck that had lifegain synergy. It was really fun to play with

[@taken_over3416]

If you play a lot of historic you’ve probably seen a variation on that deck that now includes giada

[@hallaloth3112]

@@taken_over3416 I love my Giada historic brawl deck. . . she can outpace a lot of the nastier commanders out there in an aggro blitz and if the game runs longer there plenty of ways to stall.

[@melvinshine9841]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but since Magic doesn't seem to have "once per turn" effects, couldn't you just pay 10 life to "draw" 10 cards with that Necropotence card? Or would you have pay that card's Mana cost, I think that's what it is, every time you did that or something?

[@thelastrebel13]

You are correct there is no once per turn on necropotence but it's balanced around the fact you only get those cards at your end step so you cannot immediately use them most of the time. You only pay three black mana once for casting the card

[@draikken_]

Tapping is Magic's equivalent to a once per turn effect. Necropotence doesn't require you to tap it to activate its effect, so you can activate it as many times as you want (assuming you can keep paying the cost, which in this case is one life)

[@pumkinswift8263]

Yes, this is exactly why the card was so broken

[@fernandobanda5734]

One caveat is that you draw at the end step, which means you won't use most until the next turn, and you immediately have to discard down to 7. But, yeah, Necropotence is insane because of that.

[@vallhalla101]

I've ran a Licia deck in commander for years at this point. As a whole, I rely on it to cast my commander reliably (cost reduction based on life gained in a turn) or to achieve goals like Aetherflux or other cards mentioned by calemr. On top of the card disadvantage, lifegain ends up as a win-more effect in many cases to get more value out of a good boardstate.

[@BurakBoraKapan]

The problem with lifegain synergies is that you need to draw both the enablers and the payoffs and they are usually very easy to disrupt by killing one of the two. Very aggressive lifegain decks can see some success, especially in best-of-one formats, but most lifegain decks are noob traps imo. Where lifegain really shines is incidental lifegain such as Meathook Massacre, The Wandering Emperor, Graveyard Trespasser, creatures with lifelink etc. Gaining a few points of life could give you an extra turn when you are trying to stabilize, it mitigates any card that require you to spend life (e.g. fetchlands and shocklands). Lifegain = tempo and depending on the match-up tempo is as important as card advantage, if not more. There's a reason when Meathook was nerfed in Alchemy the ability that they removed was the lifegain.

[@reaxor]

in EDH life is kinda nice, but you also get around it with commander damage, and you also have infect/poison or what its called thats even more brutal than commander damage. it would be interesting if white gained some kind of healing in those instances, to "heal" commander damage, for example gain 5life and remove 5commander damage. then it would see more play in atleast commander.

[@eliott9508]

life gain is pretty powerful in historic!

[@AngelusNielson]

Life gain isn't failed everywhere. IN Brawl it's great. No commander damage.

[@kenthustargaryen3962]

One time I got matched against my GF at the time in a locals. During our game, she used the Ajani card that gains 100 life and was so proud when she got to use the effect. She gave me this smirk and look that said 'gg go next?' and I just smiled back and asked if it was my turn. I still ended up winning, it just took longer... It's so easy to get baited by these 'powerful looking' effects that just don't really have any affect on actual game states.

[@matteorossi1172]

This is why white always was considered as the worst colour, they haven't been staxed all over in a minute (we should fix this)

[@RetirededKat]

I sacrifice my Myr Retriever with Krark-Clan Ironworks. I play Myr Retriever with the mana from Ironworks and return Myr Retriever from my graveyard to my hand, then gain 1 life with Leonin Elder. I sacrifice my Myr Retriever with Krark-Clan Ironworks... Ok so since we're in an infinite loop, I need to choose a number of times to repeat the combo. I choose a googolplex. Also I run Feldon's Cane.

[@Bongus_Bubogus]

I feel like this would’ve been more relevant 2 years ago. Card design for white cards is so much better now.

[@Alfenheimer]

The only strength of life gain is the effects it triggers on other cards, which is kinda lackluster but Arena has some pretty strong cards that do just this.

[@jamesgratz4771]

Voice of the blessed, trelassara, righteous Valkyrie, ajanis pridemate

[@CLove511]

Voice of the Blessed combo with lunarch veterans in a mass token deck absolutely slaps. Not to mention, all the games where the dinky little extra life here and there delays the opponent just enough to get your finisher combos up.

[@thelastrebel13]

Walking batista and heliod

[@drewjn]

Life gain has only ever mattered if it was used to offset life as a resource. This is why any decent card that gains life is only truly decent due to it having other affects. Even using bolas' citadel would only have a lifegain card like aetherflux reservoir or combos that can go infinite, while also compounding another affect like etb or sac. Cards that only have life gain are generally wasted space.

[@chrismoore1372]

Comeback Cats would like a word Gain life makes them overextend creatures for a board wipe Gotta build around it though

[@nikoladoncic2865]

I like how in yugioh AND Mtg life gain is such bad mechanic.

[@thelastrebel13]

Life gain is way more playable In mtg than yugioh, there's a ton of cards that gain advantage for being at high life totals and are actually fun to play with

[@nikoladoncic2865]

@@thelastrebel13 Yea but it's just not as good as other mechanics and your right life gain is WAY more playable in mtg than in yugioh but it is reserved for the side deck so I still think it's bad.

[@fernandobanda5734]

Meanwhile Digimon was recently dominated by a single very cheap card that recovered your security to the point that it had to be limited.

[@Asura706]

Only can think of that aura that gives more attack/toughness based on your life gain. Makes certain monsters with like hexproof or trample real crazy.

[@craigstuckey319]

Aaaa yes, "Astral" Recall!

[@SamChaneyProductions]

There's a lot of great insight in this video but it's marred by some glaring errors, like "Astral Recall" instead of Ancestral Recall, and "aBAzan" instead of Abzan and pronouncing Necropotence like neck-rapatense when it's pronounced necro-potence