Where PRO riders REALLY gain time | Pro vs Amateur Riders

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Most people could guess a few reasons why the pro riders are so much faster than amateurs, and they'd probably be right in most cases, but there's one misconception that often trips people up in their quest to find speed.
So, where to pro riders really gain time on the track? Let's find out.
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[@KG-yc6cl]

Im a motocross guy who has paid thousands of dollars in lessons, including from one of the top 20 riders in the world. I have never heard nor seen anyone in the mx/sx world breakdown speed like this.

[@cliveadams7629]

Nah, Ayrton Senna said it years ago. Go fast in the fast bits. You don't make time up in the corners, you male it in the straights by getting the gas on early and braking late.

[@tremolony4924]

A pro riders willingness to crash in pursuit of pushing the bike to the absolute limit every corner, every lap!

[@jieevo]

Welcome back 🎉

[@snoozzzer]

An old pro went over my and their telemetry once. My corner speed was maybe 10% higher than his, while his speed on the straight was 10% higher. He pointed out that 10% of say 40mph in the corner wasn't much, but 10% of the straightline speed was significant. He was maybe 7% faster per lap on literally the same bike

[@mattsmallshot]

i worked in a riding school before as a tech, did some track days with them, and i quote one of the senior instructor "the faster you go into the corner, the slower you'll come out of it and vice versa", this phrase is always in my head when i'm doing track day

[@ortnerendre4197]

Few people can express themselves so clearly and to the point! I think you are doing very well!

[@JS-ol2tk]

The transition point is the most important reference marker for me. Focusing on it is what allows my brain to get off the brakes instead of over-slowing in the corner entry. The 'ah-ha!' moment for me regarding trying to carry too much speed mid-corner came in the last session of a long trackday when I was just cruising around at 80% cooling off. In that session I was hitting the rev limiter on the front straight, when I was well short of the rev limiter all day on my 'hot' laps. Backing off and accelerating from a lower speed earlier in the corner gave me a significantly better top speed on the straight. I still need to evaluate the laptimer data from those sessions to figure out where to apply it in other corners & tracks.

[@stevehislop]

Nice video, too bad it is getting it totally wrong: what separates an Amateur from a Pro is the time it takes for steering the bike into the corner. You call it probably trail braking , but that is a misnomer. Nothing produces more self protecting reflexes than trying to steer the bike faster, which is why it takes a lot of practice to improve. The faster you steer the bike, the later you can brake to the steering point and it allows a totally different line through the corner. It is shown in the book "Twist of the Wrist, part 2" written by Keith Code of the California Superbike School, former coach of Eddy Lawson and it works 100% (I used to do some racing myself).

[@nickrider5220]

Good to have you back 👍 I guess Toprak is the ultimate exponent of this, his transition point is tiny.

[@HepauDK]

Exit speed is much more important than mid-corner speed. Higher exit speed sets you up for faster speed down the straights.

[@H3ntaig33K]

Yamaha School instructors have a session for this, its called slowest point i believe.

[@7overland514]

Great video and accurate. As a former control/rider coach at track days, I paid a lot of attention to why I was bored to death following slower riders. One area is braking, and they lose time by braking too soon or too late. Too soon is obvious, but when they try to brake late, they sometimes overdo it. That results in an upset bike and not being able to accelerate at the transition point. Another huge problem area is on combination corners. Slower riders tend to take rest breaks when dealing with combination corners, instead of aggressively accelerating between each corner. I found that was a great way to improve a beginner, because you only have to get them to not take breaks.

[@whitejtw]

Very cogent advice, thank you.

[@Harshith_Srinath]

Really Glad you're back to making really informative videos, making people faster globally!! Cheers and really appreciate it!!

[@RANhxcCORE]

wake up babe, new life at lean video

[@ab2774-k6i]

Thanks for that. Cornering is an important thing on track day. 'What kind of brakes will I use, I will need to set the front suspension to compensate' etc. Entry, exit and apex are always at the forefront of one's mind on track day. Trivia; Eddie Lawson was quicker than Freddie Spencer on the Apex. Freddie was quicker on entry and exit. this is what I read in the news. We know they're never wrong. They don't correct themselves sometimes, but..

[@StefanJohansson-g9q]

Got the new Honda CBR600RR ordered. Next season is gonna be awesome!

[@mygaragerules1990]

This reminds me of following an instructor during my first track day. He was back to vertical and accelerating much earlier than me.

[@thebikecrafter8128]

the day before i got HNP because of accident i used to ride bike with my friends my bike models has much stiffer frame compare than others make it hard to turning but i study move like this i use hard braking a lot, learn how the bike turn (counter steer), trail braking, rear brake to steer mid corner and manual traction control body positioning when cornering, RPM management, hanging while accelerating exit corner, braking using the body and many more i remember my friends told me that i look funny while riding because i have different riding style compares to other that using straight body and fully offset in to the corner like the 80's era well, we ride small 125cc moped bike but than i show them that i can beat them even using the worst bike i can get at the moment So, I am really thankfull that u create this type of video explaining everything as structured and easy to understand as possible giving others chance to learn easier and understand that sometime its not the bike but the technique

[@Igbon5]

Steve Martin told me years ago, about 96, when I got a new Suzuki GSXR 750 that not even Mick Doohan can get around Honda corner (now Miller Corner unfortunately) any more than 60 kmh.

[@orpaztron]

Excellent explanation. imho, it's relevant after you have over 100 laps on a specific track and you understand how a certain section affects the speed of the next or previous section.

[@GiacintoMarcellino]

This is very true. At my local track I could verify with gps I was always carrying higher corner speed than pros and yet losing so much time for the entry and especially the exit. The v shape turn is real and difficult to do.

[@andyteague90]

Good to see you back Dan. Though I don’t do track days anymore I enjoy your insightful and informative videos. 👍

[@Repend]

Drive like a V rather than a U

[@vijayam1]

Perfect! This video deserves a separate dissection of the finer details video on its own. Everything mentioned here is what separates pro from a fast amateur.

[@hlpang1075]

Do you have a video on breaking the lean angle barrier for newer riders? Great videos and thank you!

[@LifeatLean]

Here you go :) - kzbin.info/www/bejne/aIOTYZ2FqKhsfassi=glkwL9wjp0T54fIX

[@YSRreview]

This is very interesting and good graphics and narrative

[@soybeanrice]

Man... really insightful. I have found myself regressing because I was chasing higher and higher mid-corner speed, to the point that might margin for error was zero and any fatigue would result in a low side.

[@motosurgeofficial]

Absolutely golden content! Keep it up! PS. This is the 3rd time I'm watching this video!

[@evelghostrider]

With an educated guess, I know most will run to high a tyre pressure. On race bikes I'd run around 22 to 26 psi maybe 28 on all bikes upto 1000cc

[@whitejtw]

Wow all your videos have such great technical analysis. Coming from an aviation background it reminds me a whole lot of pilot training mentalities.

[@amisfitpuivk]

Enter faster, brake harder, go faster where you know it’s safe. It’s easy to see the difficulty in entering a corner quick. It must take a lot of experience to know the last possible moment to brake hard and trail it into hard countersteering. That’s a scary thing to learn with your bike and body at stake

[@b-radsadventures6846]

What would we do without you?! Glad to have you back with us.

[@astramorikes224]

Very interesting as always! Thanks to your advices through all your videos (watched them multiple times), I am in the fastest group of my local track... without any crash (and using street tires, coz Im lazy and I don't want to use tire warmers)! Thank you Dan!

[@LifeatLean]

Thanks amazing to hear :)

[@motocomconteudo497]

Brilliant video! tks

[@lancepenner2551]

Idk I’m pretty new to this but this all seemed pretty basic racing technique about getting on full power earliest is always quickest even if your slower through the apex. Still got me to click on the video

[@heervenx6585]

I'm not totally agree. As a biginner I would say I have the good lines but my main mistake early.. braking too early, getting in the curve to slow, shy to accelerate in exit. I'm improved a lot with practice and I could get all my stats higher at every parts at the corner.

[@SilkLotus]

HES BACK!

[@markb-axtonmx]

Nice. most corners just have limits. No matter who or what you're on. You can only go so fast in a turn. So yes, entry and exit are everything.

[@russellstokke6888]

This is exactly what they teach at Yamaha Champions Riding School, except they call it "the slowest point." Regardless, it is obviously true. I have a video of myself at Sonoma Raceway on a CB300R doing 2:17. Ari Henning, on an RC390, is doing a 1:52. While we have almost the exact same apex speeds, he is able to carry so much more speed up to the "transition point" and drive away so much harder. Besides the apex, he is consistently 20mph faster. There are bike and tire related reasons, but most of it is simply he is just so much better at maximizing traction.

[@RaptorG999]

It's been in Ken Hill's podcasts since 2015

[@charlieraffaniello4867]

Is this any different on a lightweight twins bike? I've heard these kind of bikes be referred to as bikes that carry their speed thru the turn, cause on my SV when I stand it up, it won't drive out like an inline 4 bike

[@user-ys9to2ie7k]

So, it would be safe to say, the pro takes it up a notch and gets closer to the proverbial line or edge ¿`_

[@thewitabike]

Welcome back mate, I started watching your videos when I first got on the road, and have recently started riding track, with my first race next month. So I'm thrilled to see you creating content again. perfect timing! One of the points you made was to brake later. I recently did some coaching with WSBK champ Troy Corser. One point he made was what he called "sooner, softer, longer" Brake sooner, brake softer and for longer. Braking all the way to the apex. Why would these opinions differ? is it just different styles? For reference we were riding 125cc/150cc bikes and getting ready for an endurance race. Thanks mate!

[@corridorjunior2066]

One possible explanation is the target audience the advice is aimed at. I don't have any on track experience on motorcycles but have raced shifter karts in the past. as well as years of sim racing and doing some coaching. Beginner and up through intermediate-advanced riders/drivers have a tendenecy to brake too early, costing them lap time. Then, as their skills progress, the get so good at braking that they can brake later than is optimal for the corner. Some rider/drivers have tendency to brake as late as possible, without missing the corner. Instead of braking as late as possible, without compromising the other parts of the corner. The perfect corner is a blend of optimizing entry, middle and exit. if you brake as late as possible, you ruin middle and exit. if you simply try to have the highest minimum speed through a corner, you will ruin entry and exit. if you simply try to get the best exit possible, you will ruin entry and middle. The best riders/drivers in the world have a finely tuned internal sense of speed and are able to blend entry middle and exit to squeeze as much time out of each section as possible without compromising the others. [1] Where you see a difference in riding style is what portion of the corner they focus on most. In my time as a Mechanic/Data analyst for Kart Racing teams, I analyzed driving data for many high level drivers. Often times, drivers would have near identical times through a corner, but you could see one driver prioritizing entry, and one prioritizing exit. And also, different bikes have characteristics that will affect how the three parts of the corners interact. One Author expressed this as the ratio between acceleration and cornering potential. This to me is the primary factor that affects driving style. A low powered machine will have a high cornering ability relative to hp. So, it is advantagous to focus on cornering speed and spend more of the turn cornering. A high powered machine will be able to accelerate as well or better than it can corner. so, you tweak your parts of the corner to spend more time accelerating than cornering. [1] This, to me, is why Valentio Rossi was so successful on motorcycles and now in GT3 cars. he has a highly finely tuned internal sense of speed. This transfers to any vehicle in motion. Going from bikes to cars and cars to bikes is not as big of a leap as most people think, if you already have that finely tuned internal sense of speed. I also know many people personally that went from racing sportbikes/motocross to gokarts and vice versa. The ones that were good at one were almost certainly good at the other very very quickly with minimal adjustment period. The muscle memory of learning the controls and the nuances of what that particular vehicle likes are much smaller aspects of going fast than having an internal sense of how to optimize a corner. Best of luck in your races! Hope this helped!

[@alm4132]

Corser's advice makes it easier to accurately set maximum entrance speed......rather than "rushing" the corner and over braking.

[@Sladep123]

Excellent analysis and explanations!

[@fabbri4497]

La position en virage est dictée par le guidon plus haut et par la nécessité de ne pas rentrer de sa journée circuit à pied ! Sans parler des pneus...

[@Deano_77]

This is such a great channel..👍

[@hectorsequi5252]

There is one legendary exception... JORGE LORENZO.

[@mitchgowing2336]

This is bad mentality IMO, the pros are absolutely blitzing every corner. Looking at static speed based on position is misleading as the acceleration through the corner is much higher on pro riders. Thinking about it like you don’t need to have high speed through a corner is completely wrong. Another factor is the pros have 100 more hp than you which is why the most aggressive line for them involves “squaring off” corners while less powerful bikes will take much wider turns and likely carry similar, if not more corner speed. Would love to hear someone comment how their lap times decreased when they tried to go slower through the turns.

[@LifeatLean]

I'm definitely not saying you don't have to have high speed, only that the goal for mid-corner shouldn't simply be more and more speed, because eventually it'll start to hurt your lap times (evidenced by other people in these comments). It's not about going slower for the sake of it. It's about giving up speed so that you can gain more elsewhere. For instance, a pro could quite easily add 5mph to any corner they ride, but if it means they blow the corner, run too wide at the exit and it costs them 20mph down the straight that's a poor trade. This video is about respecting the speed at the transition point (once you reach a certain level), something the pros are amazing at.

[@wizardmoto]

Perfect timing, trackday withdrawals just kicked in😭😭

[@XtreeM_FaiL]

Pro-riders have million dollar bikes. Of course they're fast.

[@Cheesusrice69222]

Dude just practice

[@usernameEvanT]

Most of my fellow riders have photos like the amateur at your thumbnail. Now i know why i was faster than them even on a low power bike and they were always telling me that "i ride very agresssive, i will couse an accident" and a lot of these hummiliating things to cut me down. I overtook them once and for all. Thanks a lot the expanation! You are doing a great work keep it up!

[@Maxlalala1986]

How can a guy who doesn't ride at WSBK level, tell me how ro ride like one. This is all opinions, not experienced

[@Cheesusrice69222]

Are you WSBK? No? Take advice or watch different videos

[@eitssholdon5248]

Dude .. Sports bike and Naked bike that was two different things mate , can't be same on a track when you ride it on style

[@Antmanmoto]

This has got to be one of the most valuable videos I’ve ever seen to explain the difference between us mear mortal riders, and the superstars that we love to watch. Amazing information here thank you for sharing.

[@dannycttai]

thanks for the video, this is exactly what i am thinking and struggling at the moment, appreciated

[@Craig52-zq1bt]

Get with a club and get your racing license. I did back in the lste 1970s, early 1980s. No repliracers then. You boughtva bike and made it a racer. Tires sucked, not lime the amazing tires of today. Dunlop K291 was the first sticky tire you could ride everyday. A RACE tire heats up and once it cools down, it is junk. Find a club and LEARN. Race on tbe street and break bike and bones. Getvtge book " a twist of the wrist" by Keith Code.

[@NObucketLIST]

Pick a line, any line!!! 👍

[@motordemic]

He’s back😮😮😮

[@lovelessissimo]

"Pro Rhythm"

[@PaulRothwell-qo4qf]

Yeh , let’s not forget that we don’t get access to the same tyres these guys get ! They look the same but they ain’t !!! 🤷‍♂️

[@verdeboyo]

Hey Dan, thank you for this 'Naska' says the same as you! Love your clear advice and tutoring. I now just cannot wait for the 2024 season come!

[@dribrom]

You also need to think about the conditions of your tiers and brakes too. Are they cool or hot, etc. Your grip will change slightly for each lap if you're pushing the bike to the limits.

[@Temetnosce77]

Well done, new subscriber who doesn’t subscribe easily.

[@derweibhai]

Late braking.

[@david-an]

Darn good coaching with real good examples. Thank a bunch.

[@camgere]

4:04 is a great picture. The apex (closest to the edge of the road) is about 3/4 the way through the corner. You could ride this corner so that it is symmetrical in both directions. In this case there is a bulge (asymmetry) at the entry (arrow indicates a left turn) to flatten out the curve at the exit.

[@jasonhall9731]

Our local club had the privilege to have world riders join all. To see them accelerate with loud at clear pipes at 50m breaking markers (or less) was something else t9 see when compared to fast guys on the local scene. Chatting to one of the world guys he explained there is so many large steps in the racing world to be at the top of it all.

[@pyrusmasterdan1]

champ school 💪🏽

[@mrdcato]

Such great and clear points as always. I miss riding.

[@wocookie2277]

Excellent description. This applies in MX as well.

[@DCAT180]

some exceptional piece of advice here, thanks!

[@FouseQuentin]

Thank you 🙏

[@mateomotors8945]

Bro so glad you’re back! Quality content and sharing some really high level tips.

[@PriyanshuKumar-gh2uh]

Make more vedio like this ❤❤❤ love you 🇮🇳🇮🇳🕉️

[@juicer404]

U need to be on the brake or the throttle all the time , no dead time , coasting , etc

[@DarthScosha]

Brilliant explanation, thank you.

[@radrichardson2two]

I love this video, sending it to everyone in my group

[@beanwithbaconmegarocket]

Happy you're back, m8.

[@EvilDogger]

Beautiful video once again! I notice this a lot at my local track when I go ride track days at the circuit of Mettet in Belgium. Turn 1 is a perfect example of this as I see a lot of people on the brakes way too early to get a swooping line and spend a lot of the time leaned over, when in reality it is a corner to brake late and go deep, while turning less and applying throttle much faster after being in the corner itself.

[@not_A_racer]

Bro don’t leave us again.

[@andreaventurini8965]

Absolutely top tier content!!

[@Kneedragon1962]

That's gold. That's so true.

[@colletteavery1589]

Loved this lesson thanks 🙏

[@mits2113]

❤

[@hellomihai]

Great Video. Id suggest that this point and shoot technique benefits big HP bikes more than smaller ones that need to maintain higher corner speeds.

[@LifeatLean]

It's not just for big bikes. Every single bike will have a transition point, smaller bikes will just get there a little bit differently than big bikes, but the point remains the same that the pros can simply get there quicker than an amateur (on the same bike).

[@jeffr4110]

Very well explained

[@sanal.abraham]

Quality stuff, as always.

[@BigFoofies]

Can we get 1000 likes on this so Dan can get some pictures to hang on his walls?

[@LifeatLean]

That genuinely made me laugh, thanks 😂

[@George41173]

My biggest issue

[@mraki1980]

great job mate!

[@brendendyson8470]

Good video mate

[@kingGar27]

Great video!

[@gerardjoaquino8856]

Excellent 👍

[@fst534]

Hey Dan, looking good. Do you have a video how to (mentally) achieve higher lean angle? It seems to be my problem that I can't get past a certain level (degree) because my brain thinks it's unsafe. Thank you! Edit: oh I just recognized I already watched your video on that topic. Maybe I should just watch it a second time

[@LifeatLean]

Here you go :) - kzbin.info/www/bejne/aIOTYZ2FqKhsfassi=glkwL9wjp0T54fIX

[@fst534]

@@LifeatLean

[@sweet-triple-UK]

Awesome video mate, I'm glad you're producing these gems for me to swat up on before some long awaited track time next year. Are you doing any tuition anywhere next year by any chance?

[@LifeatLean]

No plans to at this point in time, sorry 👎

[@sweet-triple-UK]

@@LifeatLean No worries mate thanks for the reply!

[@billwiley7216]

One thing to remember also is the bike the pro is riding the front forks are likely worth a lot more than the ENTIRE BIKE the novice rider is on as well. Also he has the top engineers computing the gathered data and setting up a software package that the novice only dreams about when it comes to engine power control and getting the power to the track with minimum wheelspin upsetting the bike through those corners and entry and exit of the same.

[@superbarnie]

Nah, its a skill issue. A stock supersport is only a few seconds off from a WSBK bike. And with a few off the shelf upgrades the gap is even smaller.

[@billwiley7216]

@@superbarnie When gaps are measured in tenths of a second a "few" seconds is night and day in capability differences. Another thing is that current supersport bikes are putting out the same horsepower as a full fledged superbike from a few years ago. Superbikes now actually have more horsepower available than can be used in most sectors of a roadcourse track and are using electronics to throttle that power DOWN to a level of being usable to the rider rather than spitting them off in every corner. So the difference is being able to control the horsepower and added speeds the bikes are capable of with suspension, computer controls and aero. As more and more computer controls are added and perfected rider skill is becoming much less a factor than bike performance. This shows big time like this year in moto gp when a non Ducati rider regardless of their resume and proven skills were struggling to top much lesser riders for even a top 5 finish much less compete for a win.

[@slimfit767]

The bike doesn't matter,amateur riders will not come anywhere near a pro racer.

[@burcinarici]

I always thought that if you needed throttle before the apex then you might have slowed down more than you needed. Confused.

[@50p-Racing]

It could be either. It depends on why you're getting back on the throttle. Getting on the gas to get round the corner is not the same as driving the bike towards your next brake marker.

[@JS-ol2tk]

The term 'apex' means different things to different people, but for me it's just the place where you are closest to the inner curb. That is not a very useful point of reference in relation to what I'm doing with the brakes or throttle, especially for decreasing-radius or double-apex corners. In a double-apex corner you're usually still trail braking through the first apex, and back on the gas long before the second apex. Somewhere in between is the slowest point of the corner, which is what Dan is calling the transition point. That point might be somewhere close to the outer curb, so maybe you could call it the outer apex if you like, but it's easier and less ambiguous to talk about the 'slowest point' or the 'transition point' of the corner.

[@IceBoNeZ]

​@@JS-ol2tkYep, as Dan mentioned, the transition point will not always be on the apex itself, it can depend on a few factors, entry speed, the exact shape of the coner, especially the exit, the camber of the track, any changes in elevation in or out, weather and track temps, etc.. pro team techs will work with loads of variables & telemetry to provide their rider with as precise info as they can to give them that razor sharp winning edge..

[@tamasloki6456]

So, if im not msitaken, at the end of this lot of blabla, all you said, the pros can brake later, lean deeper and accelerate earlier. All that on mostly on superior bikes, than an average track day driver...?!

[@threesomemonkey8780]

I thought that was a very concise explanation... Excellent job. 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽🍻🤙🏽🇦🇺

[@RealGirlsRideTheirOwn]

❤❤ IM SO HAPPY YOUR BACK! LOVE YOUR INSTRUCTIONAL VIDEOS! ❤❤ Next Season I'll be practicing that at COTA!