Why are public toilets in Japan so much cheaper?

I made a video about why Japan's public toilets are amazing and one of the reasons was that you always find them when you need to go. I speculated that perhaps there were so many because they were cheap to build and maintain. So, I investigated.
- Why Japan’s Public Toilets are Amazing • Why Japan has the clea...
- Why Public Bathrooms Suck in North America: Uytae Lee's Stories About Here • Why Public Bathrooms S...
Sources
- Toshikan (toilet builder) www.toshikan.net/original.html
- Survey of users of public toilets www.mlit.go.jp/common/0011716...
- Yokohama city public toilet cost www.townnews.co.jp/0106/2023/...
- Yokohama city to trial public toilet partnership with Lawson www.lawson.co.jp/company/news...
- Sumida-ku stats 1 www.city.sumida.lg.jp/kuseijo...
- Sumida-ku stats 2 www.city.sumida.lg.jp/kugikai...
- Sumida-ku stats 3 www.city.sumida.lg.jp/kuseijo...
- Winnipeg more than just a washroom www.wpgfdn.org/health/amoowig...
- City of Burnaby toilet costs www.burnabynow.com/local-news...
- Public washroom costs Vancouver dailyhive.com/vancouver/vanco...
- City of Burnaby exploring building more public washrooms dailyhive.com/vancouver/burna...
- List of Countries by GDP (PPP) per capita en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...
- Historical exchange rates www.ofx.com/en-ca/forex-news/...
- Tokyo Llama (channel about renovating an abandoned Japanese home) / @tokyollama
- Urban park law www.chisou.go.jp/tiiki/kokuse...
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[@LifeWhereImFrom]

My first video on Why Japan’s Public Toilets are Amazing kzbin.info/www/bejne/boXVqaeIqqp2p5o and Uytae Lee's from About Here's video on Why Public Bathrooms Suck in North America kzbin.info/www/bejne/mpC9mZ6Qac13oassi=Sogq_RthuvUkHLbf

[@elizabethdavis1696]

Please do a video on Japanese cherry blossom parks!!!!! And the cherry blossom festival!!!!

[@bla9803]

Hello ! Could you investigate about pesticides and organic food in japan, please ?

[@JellyShaputra]

Make zaibatsu video

[@KatarupaYT]

The apparent normalisation of the idea that public toilets are a dedicated place for crackheads to shoot up in Canada is truly unsettling

[@Mwoods2272]

And housing homeless people.

[@kurisu100]

We have this stupid idea that "Everyone has the right to neglect".

[@Mobik_]

and even the craziest thing is that the government doesn't help at all... they just want to avoid a few deaths and that's it and not to revert the drug issues they have.

[@WoodEe-zq6qv]

That's what they're used for. The purpose of a system is what it does.

[@lainiwakura1776]

Dude, it's the same in the US too.

[@AboutHere]

So honoured for the shout-out - thank you! This was a really insightful that added a lot more to my understanding of the context in Japan. It's wonderful to have someone like yourself who has the connections and language to dive deeper into how these issues are treated overseas :)

[@Justinforsure]

Two great channels. Would love to see you collab!

[@1st1anarkissed]

In Canada, construction contracts are a popular way to launder stolen public money.

[@galeparker1067]

And don't forget about inside info about zoning/land use changes..... 🤣🤣🤣😱😩✌️🇨🇦@Browne7100

[@FUnzzies1]

Good ole Trudeau

[@tocreatee3585]

japan is no different. just not much money there to steal.

[@MeowjinBoo]

​@@FUnzzies1confusing Trudeau for municipal and provincial stuff. Good job. Btw, I experienced true corruption when my company had a contract for the ministry of transportation in BC.

[@InV1sible9688]

Yup Construction contracts are corrupt esp the ones with provincial governments.

[@azaraniichan]

Toilet lore is crazy

[@Naoko1875]

I live in Japan and I appreciate it so much that the government offers the service of providing clean toilets literally everywhere. It makes everyday life so much easier!

[@FUnzzies1]

Oof, such reliance on the government

[@SpartanFarron]

@@FUnzzies1 The taxes in japan is really high. So they should expect good public services.

[@inoob26]

​@@FUnzzies1the hell do you think the point of a government is?

[@Radu93Z]

​@@SpartanFarron Compared to Europe it doesn't have higher taxes.

[@flyveto457]

​@@FUnzzies1 it makes life easier, I'll take that than to do everything solely on my own.

[@girlzie945]

I find it very wonderful how much Japan focuses on the elderly and disabled in the case of public washrooms. I've never seen or heard of a washroom that provides a place for people with a colostomy or so many handrails in Canada.

[@wzukr]

Many handrails does not necessarily mean that they all are usefull.

[@98Zai]

I think compared to the main building and plumbing, the handrails are cheap. They do have a significant elderly population and they do serve their purpose.

[@eladmajar]

i love the dephs of research that was put into this video

[@hitachicordoba]

The recent movie Perfect Days gave me a new respect for the people who maintain Tokyo toilets. In LA it is very difficult to find a restroom unless you are eating in a sit down restaurant.

[@GojiMet86]

I'm grateful for the public Bryant Park Bathroom in Manhattan. It is physically small, but it two stalls and like 2-3 urinals, and there are almost always attendants cleaning and ensuring everything is stocked. A diamond in the rough, and it has saved me many times when I'm walking around Midtown. The more private Macy's on 34th Street is also pretty good in a pinch, along with the Shops at Hudson Yards, but good public restrooms are really rare.

[@Peizxcv]

That’s an issue with all American cities and worse since the drug and COVID pandemics. Even formerly public restrooms like those in McDonald’s would be locked

[@alphakennybody2583]

Here in San francisco the city wasted 1.7 mil usd on a single toilet

[@Dragonheng]

wow and I thought €900,000 was too much wasted money for just one toilet. It's in Regensburg and it's ugly- In my case in Nuremberg they were creative because they hid the toilet in an advertising pillar in the middle of the way to the train station and hardly anyone sees the thing but they walk right past it.XD You only notice this thing when it's out of order again.

[@SweetChicagoGator]

What did SF do about the toilets?😮

[@GameFuMaster]

@@SweetChicagoGator the streets are the toilets now

[@alphakennybody2583]

@@SweetChicagoGator the public works waited n waited politics and decided to finally build a single toilet for 1.7 mil

[@DaveGIS123]

"Here in San Francisco the city wasted 1.7 mil usd on a single toilet" So, you're saying the city flushed the money?

[@loudmouthnewyorker2803]

This is the video that makes us say thanks Smell-A-Vision hasn't been invented yet.

[@moogiemoogs]

I like how you can just literally call the city government and they tell you everything you need

[@LindaPerry_337]

I think it would have been a bit more complicated than that though - being on hold for half an hour, before speaking to human operator after being given run around by AI operator, the operator working which department is best to send the call to (planning or engineering or finance) then being on hold again while waiting for someone to answer your query ...

[@yemanthike4770]

@@LindaPerry_337 There's no AI yet. But it does take a while to get connected.

[@LindaPerry_337]

@yemanthike4770 Government departments and some large businesses use computer programmed telephonists where I live. Most are poor at saving time or getting the correct department. And getting it to repeat an instruction requires going back to the 'main menu' and listening to the whole spiel over again.

[@FNLNFNLN]

Governments are, in theory, your employees. They should respond promptly to any request for information that isn't private.

[@MrLiguinii]

It was so easy visiting Japan, knowing there will be a public toilet nearby almost everywhere we go (even in the woods). I wish we had similar utilities in Canada.

[@user-no2mz9hl4f]

I feel the same about America!

[@GizmoAndKiwi]

I feel the same about Germany! In Japan I could just leave the house, never having to worry about it. In Germany, even in my own city, it can get tricky and then most of the time you still have to pay (unless it's in a cafe or something, where you consume something)

[@TheNewGreenIsBlue]

@3:19 Arigatoilet... hilarious.

[@ButacuPpucatuB]

This was very informative! Thank you 🧡🧡🧡🧡🧡

[@pipedemon28]

I think that the cost of living in Vancouver is one of the highest in Canada. It is not representative of the rest of Canada. I would have liked you to compare with St John, Saskatoon or Winnipeg.

[@foo9877]

Love how this channel randomly has a toilet saga. Looking forward to the next arcs

[@scocassovegetus]

Canada has to deal with vandalism. Where I grew up in Canada, public toilets only existed in parks, were only open during the daytime, and they were also built in a similar way to prison toilets, i.e. all stainless steel, no glass mirror (polished metal), steel entry door, steel toilet doors, etc..

[@98Zai]

Well that's durable and sanitary. Why would you build something that receives high traffic from sensitive materials? I think that's standard in the entire developed world, and I never had the prison connotation to stainless steel. Since the 70's where I live most public places use stainless steel for doors etc. To me it looks modern and fancy.

[@JasonWitmerYT]

Great content as always Greg!

[@hdhdhhehe6709]

Amusing and surprisingly interesting video topic 😁🚽

[@etherdog]

In the same vain as this video, the film "Perfect Days" by Wim Wenders is about a guy who cleans the Tokyo Toilet Project toilets. A wonderful movie with Lou Reed's "Perfect Day" as the theme song. Good job as always, Greg!

[@AushlinART]

Another grate Episode, thank you very much :D

[@XSpImmaLion]

Love your drive to answer these types of questions Greg!

[@yaminogame7805]

the video we didn't know we needed.

[@HansPeeters]

Always so nice when you get a chance to meet in real life! Looking forward to the next documentary.

[@DanKxxx]

Corruption works differently in Japan. In Japan the construction companies lobby for contracts, but in Canada they bribe for contracts. Lobbying by the construction sector has lead to some pretty cheap materials you wouldn't find in most countries as well as building practices.

[@fgfgfgfgf2919]

lies ! white suprecmacists

[@romes19]

I’m a contractor in Canada. Taxes are very high here. It’s tax and markups on everything, over and over again. High permit fees and highly paid municipal employees inspecting work and causing delays and changes. Canada has more crime and vandalism. Japan seems to have less vandalism. More homogeneous population trained from a young age to clean and take care of things.

[@paulccrimmins]

Aloha 🤙 from Honolulu !!! Another great video down the toilet!😂

[@CeritaFandaVancouver]

Thank you for sharing your thorough research and details data. I think just like housings, clean and maintained public toilets should be among top priorities. Imagine how often people have to hold on for hours until they get home, having to pay and eat in the restaurant each time the nature calls in, or running to the park or mall for it since nothing by the stations. Looking forward for the changes, inspired by the country like Japan.

[@andreguna4170]

Spirit of the Law jingle at 7:14 😂

[@HumbertoHernandez]

"Honey, what are you doing?" "I'm watching some guy talk about the costs of Japanese public toilets compared to Canadian ones, Martha!!"

[@WhiteWulfe]

Here in Edmonton they've run one or two pilot projects for public washrooms, but they seem to have faced a fair bit of backlash. The most notorious one that comes to mind is the one on on Whyte Avenue (82nd Ave) and Gateway Boulevard (formerly Calgary Trail North). It seems utilitarian enough, but most people won't even catch the bus near it, because there's either some sort of street preaching going on right next to it, people camping out in it, or in generally it being a absolute mess. I do wish we had more facilities like this, because for a little while it did actively discourage certain Friday/Saturday alleyway poor behaviours, but due to a lack of enforcement (as well as other projects stalling out, or even being cancelled due to the reception of this one) they've gained a fairly bad reputation as not only somewhere you shouldn't go, but somewhere if you do go because you need to, you're going to get mugged or stabbed, which is unfortunate.

[@janinesheedy8432]

Fascinating!

[@MSmith-Photography]

Aside from that one public washroom that you highlighted in Winnipeg, the only other places that you'd really find public washrooms are in city parks.

[@jetnavigator]

Things in Japan don't have to be made vandal-proof. For now...

[@grayrabbit2211]

99% conviction rate + harsh Japanese prisons will keep it that way. US Army boot camp looks like a dream vacation compared to Japanese prisons.

[@FNLNFNLN]

The wonders that can be achieved when individualism isn't a borderline religion and collectivism isn't a bad word.

[@lopoa126]

@@FNLNFNLNfascism is cringe bro

[@FNLNFNLN]

@@lopoa126 It sure is. It'd be nice to have less of it and a bit more mutual cooperation, but alas.

[@user-221i]

Arresting drug addicts do wonders in Japan, Singapore, China, etc.

[@chase14000]

cant wait for the next 12 videos about toilets

[@SunnyWu]

1. Less drug related problems in Japan and Asia in general as both dealers and users face harsh punishments when caught with drugs. Places like China, you get the firing squad for most cases. 2. Japanese people respect one another, and not likely to vandalize things. 3. Criminals are actually punished in Japan with Communist-like prisons, unlike western prisons. 4. Labour an building costs are cheaper in Japan and Asia in general. I think it is all these factors combined. My home country of China also has many public toilets, it's one of the most shocking things when I came to the US. I rarely go into San Francisco now due to crime and human feces being everywhere.

[@cleodello]

I just saw a movie featuring those types of bathrooms at the beginning. It was called “Perfect Days”. c: The style at 3:08 looks familiar, too.

[@ExploreEstate]

Another reason is Japanese high regards for cleanliness and hygiene. As it makes them use the facilities responsibly, in turn reducing maintenance and repair costs over time.

[@Andrew_Erickson]

Imagine not teleporting your poop directly into the center of the sun, smh.

[@thatboyscotty]

Typically I just bend over, grab my ankles and let 'er rip. Maybe not as efficient as teleportation, but it's fun to watch a turd rocket through the sky toward outerspace.

[@tankeryy1566]

wow nice, tokyo llama got featured!

[@leftyfourguns]

Are we going to get the bath saga after the toilet saga? I would seriously be so excited

[@jfungsf882]

Great informative video!😉👍💯 Wait until Greg learns about my home city San Francisco installing a single public toilet in one neighborhood for a little over $1M USD😱

[@GreatGrandCarrot]

This is the first time I saw a stall for people with colostomies. That's insane!

[@maxjosephwheeler]

*As usual, we in the West ARE THE PROBLEM!* Japan continues to be diligent, thoughtful and innovative.

[@TeeBoyd88]

I didn't think public toilets would be interesting. Comparing it to the one public toilet in our public park the cost and timing and red tape was ridiculous. Of course the public toilet is constantly being fixed. Some idiots tried blowing it up (toilet bowl) and another time the door lock was sabotaged. The residents nearest to it didn't want it but a few parents complained their kids needed one if they play in the playground. We live in a lovely neighbourhood and I agree the building is an eyesore but people do use it. My husband and son used it once, they won't again, lol. It's locked in the evenings.

[@patriciafrancis9134]

Wow, I never thought of public restrooms and their cost factors. I love how Japan takes the needs of all people in their bathroom design. I live in the US and after your video I realize that we will be living with port-a-potties for many more decades

[@roycrave2420]

Reminds me of "Perfect Days".

[@ohjajohh]

I watched that movie last week too :)

[@kellybryson7754]

Wow, I never considere the cost involved in providing public toilets.

[@HappyfoxBiz]

in the end, having toilets around your business accessible to your customers can increase their spending as they don't need to rush out half way through their spending. Having publicly accessible toilets make you a better company because you are doing a service to the community and therefore; they may not be purchasing that one time but more than likely accept your slightly higher charges when you offer services that are for the benefit of others and keep them maintained and offer security. As much as people will disagree, in the end if I were nice to you on a day where you are having "one of those days" I'm sure that you would come into my shop and spend something when you need a snack or a sandwich, maybe a drink over those soulless corporations that are strict "close at 5PM, no public toilets... we are not your therapist"

[@98Zai]

Yeah but that would mean making society even more dependent on the commercial industry. So if something happens and they go out of business, you're stuck with the problem again. Remember, they only exist to serve themselves in the end. The point of government is to govern what people need, and we need bathrooms - not convenience stores. To go further, we need health care, postal service, education, transportation and we need facilities. These are the jobs of the government, and to privatize these services is incredibly short sighted.

[@HappyfoxBiz]

@@98Zai I did also say that you can charge people a lot more for just having toilets and being open later, so I already covered the fact that it's not really worth it to rely on corporate humanity when we already pay the government to act in our best interest, workers pay more taxes than corporations.

[@cleodello]

Port-au-potties are useful in other parts of Canada where the winter weather stronger and people stop going to parks often. So, the toilets are moved away in the winter.

[@RailfanSam]

Fun fact about Portland Loo they were designed in Portland Oregon and the city owns the patent for it

[@SushiParty]

It's sad to see that my home province can't provide basic amenities like cleaning drinking water and public toilets like Japan. I also know the ones we do have are vandalized to hell so I guess that's one of the major reasons why. My public washrooms are basically McDonald's and Timmies.

[@annesummers09]

Why isn't your wife in any of your videos? I love watching them and I'm going to go through all of them. Thanks😊 Also, it would be nice to see a video on Japanese mothers riding bikes with their children on them.

[@wkrbtg9]

I never thought public toilets would be so interesting!

[@aixtom979]

If the toilet was not operating yet, in Japan it would probably be fenced off with tape and possibly even a wand-wielding security person, if it's in a busy area. ;-) I think a lot of things in Japan could possibly be with disasters in mind. You have 24/7 convenience stores at almost every intersection, that could tide the people over for a few days if things get interrupted. You have vending machines everywhere, some of them even advertising that they will keep operating and switch to "free" mode in case of disaster, not requiring payment. Then I wonder how much of the social cohesion in Japan is based on the frequent disasters, where you *need* your neighbours and your fellow town-people. From personal experience at home I witnessed how the relationship between us neighbors improved big time since we had a serious water mains problem a few years back. So maybe society in the long run would benefit from a few more disasters....

[@ystong6345]

I wonder what I'd think if I walk past a public toilet and seeing Greg all creepy and taking photos through the gaps. :D

[@inosukehashibara5930]

I still remember the 1 million pesos public toilet in the Philippines where there are no wooden walls for privacy and its awful condition.

[@bla9803]

Can you investigate about pesticides and organic food in japan, please ?

[@pas7680]

Maintenance cost is cheap as vandalism is rare compared to everywhere else in the world. Design on the other hand is literally piss poor, as per one example in the video it's common to be able to see the urinals from the entrance.

[@SweetChicagoGator]

Wonderful hygiene that the Japanese have. Congratulations on their amazing toilets for the immense public population. 🤗

[@0pTicaL]

San Francisco has a $1.7M toilet, nothing compared to the ones in Japan, everyone is outraged because it looks like it costs $117,000 tops.

[@arcticredpanda4598]

Very simple to understand when you look at the wages.

[@ezren4677]

Have you seen the moive Perfect Days?

[@makotoisme]

Public toilets are quite common in the Uk, they are mostly free but ones in touristy areas or in cities tend to have a small charge to use them (around 20p).

[@SplatterInker]

😂 when was the last time you peed in public in London. Haven't seen a 20p fare for the loo there since 2012! The Royal Parks are the worst offenders but before they made the terminus stations free again they were mostly demanding 50p a pop. Admittedly London is only a tiny portion if the UK. 😂

[@makotoisme]

@@SplatterInker the ones in Trafalgar Square are 20p. But I was mostly referring to the toilets in rural Wales.

[@Danpungip]

8:01 ive walked past that park 3 times

[@lightweaver1839]

No wonder we get stuck with porta potties so much in North America More accessible ones please

[@bgezal]

I wonder how than Canadian toilet with grates works in winter.

[@Bunni_Bunbuns]

In London, UK we don’t have many public or park toilets. If you’re out and desperate, your best bet is the local McDonalds or other such stores.

[@98Zai]

I don't see why urinals couldn't be a separate area like was common at the turn of the century. Just a stainless steel troth by the side of the building with a cover. The troth only needs one connection to the drain and doesn't need much cleaning? More focus/money could be put on maintaining the proper indoors toilet. I still see turn of the century urinals around the city and they seem to have kept up well, and they're actually pretty nice looking additions to the environment.

[@IfYouSeekCaveman]

Here I am, looking at Japanese toilets at 1AM.

[@darkshadowsx5949]

$53,000 USD for a bathroom sounds really expensive. especially since my house with 3 bed 2 bathrooms is valued at $44,000 in today's overpriced market. where is the extra $40,000 for this bathroom going? labor?

[@tlolovestats]

Their toilet costs more than my house

[@nightwing20050089]

People in Canada are not disciplined enough to not vandalize public washrooms.

[@Mobik_]

Corruption is WILD in Canada... Sheesh!

[@ch4.hayabusa]

Colostomy stations in all public toilets is crazy... dont get old. I had to lookup what it is... I should have remember from double butt in Silicon Valley.

[@wzukr]

Colostomy has nothing to do with being old. Just my 2 cents as RN.

[@thndr_5468]

I hate how we can never have nice things in the US because people don't respect their surroundings like they do in Japan

[@TheWiseGrif]

My city (Columbus OH) just installed 3 of the Portland Loo style...for over $2 million 😮‍💨

[@user-fl1pc7zu7f]

and that there is respect and appreciation and they don't get trashed or destroyed.

[@largesmallworld]

Bought a G-shock watch in Japan. Those things cost 3x in my region.

[@ethandouro4334]

"public toilets in Japan are cheap compared to Canada." Me, a latino in latin america: *Using a restaurant toilet for free after asking for water*

[@wzukr]

I´ve never read bigger nonsene than @5:28 "when people are longer than 5 minutes the lights dim for safety reasons" Because when there is no/very little light in the stall it does enhance the safety?? How many people suffer on panic attacks due to this idea?

[@chinobandito7625]

San Francisco just opened a public toilet like these except it cost 1.2 million to build and took a few years 😂 For just one small public toilet.

[@zam023]

From your videos, I actually think Canadian toilets are smaller. The only big one is that fancy (fashionable) toilet, which I honestly think was not practical, in terms of the positioning of the toilet stall, sink etc. Japanese toilets are very practical and use space efficiently. I would prefer that over a fancy toilet.

[@grayrabbit2211]

@7:00 -- how does it cost $70k CAD to maintain a toilet? That's one full time employee and then some. I doubt the restroom has an attendant.

[@wzukr]

I need to agree, Those prizes are outrageous.

[@user-ym4xy6us5e]

You saw it, they provide crack pipes, clean needles, sanitary supplies, and monitoring services to save the drug addicts from poisoning themselves. Coincidentally, no upright citizen would dare to enter such a place. Thus, the least desirable members of society are denying normal people the benefit of public spaces.

[@CattleFarmer667]

Maybe Tokyo is more densely populated compared to Canada. Operating cost can be cheaper

[@edeggermont]

The dedication and attention to detail showcased here are truly remarkable. Exploring the nuances of public toilets in both Japan and Canada in such a visually captivating manner is both enlightening and engaging. Kudos for delivering such an outstanding piece of work! I really enjoyed this video

[@xTheEcO]

ChatGPT comment spotted

[@edeggermont]

@@xTheEcO Thanks, I was in a poetic mood. Impressed by the amount of time spend to make this video, visiting all these toilets in Japan and Canada

[@selgeaus]

Some of the public toilets in parks are rather... lacking privacy, where you see the urinal from outside

[@photog14]

It still puzzles me as to why many public bathrooms don’t have hand soap.

[@PrograError]

Meanwhile, where I am, if it has hand soap, and it's public non mall places, you are likely to get diluted crap

[@thany3]

Japan is just more considerate. That's basically what it comes down to.

[@jakoblarok]

Gods damMMMMn! How is that restroom from 7:00 so frickin expensive?! Like, if you paid one person to be the caretaker of that ONE toilet site, he'd make more money than most Canadians (or US folks, and ESPECIALLY more than Japanese wage earners). Pay *live-in* caretaker 35k C$, climate-controlled cabin on the premisis (concealed from public access/view) give them 4 weeks paid vacation (temps filling in, in those times), and surely it still comes to less than 75k C$ y'all are spending on the cleaning contractor that left everything looking dingy as hell...

[@CharlesDuchemin-ip1yf]

And there is a beautiful movie about Japanese toilets called Perfect Days which I recommend to any Japan enthousiast

[@asnierkishcowboy]

You're telling me that Japan, the country which has rarely any trashcans in public, has loads of cheap public toilets? Interessting.

[@sanji663]

In Germany, this would cost 1.5 million.

[@Ayyfren]

Why am I obsessed with the efficiency of public toilet service

[@KeroseneSkies]

WAIT WHATTTT, COLOSTOMY SINK????? Amazing......!

[@martinhami3]

Canada looks like a dystopian nightmare in the most beautiful of settings

[@leahj139]

😂 I don't know about the nightmare part but it is a beautiful setting

[@DiRECs]

2:20 What camera is that? It seems to have good stabilization.

[@LifeWhereImFrom]

Osmo Pocket 3. It's quite handy.

[@mrnekokittycatsaki1419]

​@@LifeWhereImFrom can you please a video about Way there are no soap in the public restroom?

[@gracehartinger9290]

I guess props for showing what a pit toilet actually looks like 😢 the only time you’re glad to see that is at the end of a long hike, lol