Liminality in 2D Games

[@ODISeth]

Something I really like about Pokémon mystery dungeon is how even though there aren’t any physically liminal spaces across any of the games, the concept of the game is extremely liminal. The whole game takes place in a supposedly transitional phase were a human who transformed into you’re a Pokémon with no idea why or if there will ever be any way to transform back, and for most of the game, you’re distracted from that reality with tasks and cool music and intricate stories. But there’s one specific location in explorers of time/darkness/sky that for me, really makes that liminal feeling sink home. Sharpedo Bluff, it’s the only location in the game where all the music stops and you’re just confronted with the sinking feeling of overlooking the ocean that brought you into this world. There are a few story beats that take place at Sharpedo Bluff but for the most part, if you’re there you’re there on your own time taking a step away from your duties and your friends to sit there alone with the sounds of crashing waves below. It’s not a liminal space, but it most certainly gives me that feeling too

[@MecklesFrog]

I remember that! Those little moments in that game where it was just like "damn I used to be a human that's crazy"

[@ODISeth]

@@MecklesFrog the PMD games are wild haha I owe my own KZbin channel to them, but also I think they shaped a large part of my emotional maturity and outlook on life. Lot of credit I’m placing on a silly Pokemon game I know but, games are powerful! Also this is the first video I’ve seen of yours but I LOVE the presentation and editing styles. I can already tell you’re gonna be a great KZbinr, I just hope you’re able to convert more of your current audience to here haha!

[@leopardbunny]

I would KILL for a video on the PMD games, if you're interested in such a thing @@MecklesFrog

[@leopardbunny]

I don't think it's silly at all. The PMD games, especially Explorers of Sky in particular, are surprisingly emotional stories that push the boundaries of what a Pokemon game can be, and can have really mature and emotional plot points, and characters that you grow attached to, on a level that only three of the nine main series Pokemon games have experimented with. Those being gens 5, 7, and 9. Gen 8 may have also tried but honestly I can't be bothered to play that game. @@ODISeth

[@ODISeth]

@@leopardbunny oh don’t I know it! I’ve played PMD Sky more times than I can count, in large part due to that story (and due to playing romhacks of Sky on my channel but shhhh) The liminality of the PMD experience allows Pokémon, and specifically Chunsoft, to tackle some of the best and most emotionally moving stories imaginable. Hell even the universally titled “Worst PMD Game” GTI has a phenomenally emotional story

[@SilverScroll]

One genre that could probably get its own entire video is the point-and-click adventure genre. A lot of those basically have you transitioning from one beautifully rendered picture of an abandoned, slightly-off location to the next with every click, everything working on familiar logic but not _quite,_ you're often entirely alone for most or all of them, and you often spend a lot of time looking at a particular location (letting its liminality sink in) as you figure out how to proceed. I personally had extensive experience with this sort of thing with the old Heureka-Klett games - the first one takes place during the empty night in an opera house that feels very dreamlike, the second one takes place on a small island of a physics-obsessed early-modern civilization who have all left the island in the wake of an imminent natural disaster facing their small planet, the third one has you pursue the kidnappers of your friend into an empty parallel world of vast landscapes, ancient temples and decaying industrial infrastructure, etc. It's a beautiful series, and I highly recommend it for its liminality. The puzzles are really fun too.

[@MecklesFrog]

That's a good point! TBH I think there's probably enough like, liminal, lonely, immersive Point and click games out there it could probably warrant it's own video haha

[@depsurrel5084]

this is an extremely weird one, especially because it doesn't really have the visuals for it, but some of the segments in Echo give that "abandoned and lost" feeling

[@MecklesFrog]

I have never played Echo BUT I'm gonna look it up now heehoo

[@davidleon7918]

You mean that video game novel where theres anthropomorphic animal?

[@SilverInkblot]

Hi, its me - the one person outside the circle of people who have played Undertale and watched this video 😂 For intentional liminality, my recommendation is Kentucky Route Zero - the plot is effectively a road trip through abandoned places and displaced people, which is the shortest explanation I can give without rambling. I'm not sure if it counts as 2D or not though; perhaps low-poly? As for unintentionally liminal, my first thought was Kingdom Hearts of all things. Once you've done the plot of each world, the level-grinding and item collection feels like it all occurs in a rather hollow place. Traverse Town especially made me feel out of sorts back in the day.

[@PJBgamer]

"It's so absurdly niche, and it's basically me attempting to justify a random thought I had in the shower..." But I *like* absurdly niche topics about random thoughts people have in the shower! Also, to add to the topic of liminal spaces in 2D games, Metroid Fusion feels very liminal when going through the BSL without enemies to fight... especially when you're past 4-year-old me scared the SA-X could attack at any moment. I had nightmares about it growing up.

[@MecklesFrog]

Low key a part of me feels like some of the best videos I've seen are people trying to justify shower thoughts haha Also yeah I can see that! Metroid games 100% have that almost "alien isolation" feeling where you never quite know if you're alone!

[@SheepUndefined]

@@MecklesFrog I mean given scifi horror movies such as the original alien was one of the inspirations for it, yeah that tracks.

[@Stofferjib]

The old Mario games on the Game Boy, the ones with the weirdly Egyptian themed early levels, those always hit me kind of weird even as a kid. Then later on on the GBA one that really got me feelin' the liminal was LotR: The Two Towers. in that one it was very much a simple matter of beat up enemies, go to the next zone. But you could explore a zone well after beating up the baddies, leaving the space empty, lifeless, and the game's lack of NPCs really lent itself to that feeling of isolation.

[@MecklesFrog]

I remember the LOTR games on the like, gamecube I think kind of having the same feeling! Played them at my friends houses from time to time

[@evilblade882]

Your first choice makes a lot of sense. A good portion of metroidvania games just have this lonesome feeling to it. For me it was Metroid fusion That hit me the hardest. Just being mostly alone in a sterile and dead space station leaves me in awe. scared, but in awe.

[@MecklesFrog]

I really need to play the Metroid games, I've watched my husband play them but never gone through them myself

[@BethVeni]

omg nice vid! keep up the nice work. i find the game OFF a really interesting instance of 2d liminality. (SPOILERS) Purified zones are completely devoid of the npcs, color palettr, and life they once had. Its a lot like the No Mercy Run of Undertale where once-vibrant areas are just disturbing shadows of their former selves.

[@MecklesFrog]

That's a good one! I thought about including OFF, it was in some of the early versions of the script, but I opted not to since I hadn't actually played it haha

[@Cultnatise]

Great video :)

[@MecklesFrog]

Thanks so much!

[@kaileychambers6969]

Man this is such a good video. Loved all the examples given and just overall was a super interesting and chill video to watch while drawing a bit

[@MecklesFrog]

Thanks so much! Yeah that's the vibe I'm going for, something that's both engaging when watching with full attention, or just listening

[@leopardbunny]

Also while I can't blame you for avoiding modern Pokemon games, I don't think anything has ever captured quite the same form of liminality that Area Zero in Scarlet and Violet captures. It's a much more naturalistic and serene form of it, but yet still with this sense of something being deeply wrong, that you're not supposed to be here, but paradoxically welcoming and calming and nostalgic as the shimmering lighting fades to crystalline reflections and the very terrain leads you to the center of the crater and the sky above slowly closes off. Toby Fox himself helped compose the theme for this area, and it perfectly completes the atmosphere.

[@MecklesFrog]

I keep hearing mixed things about Scarlet and Violet that make me curious to try it out at some point tbh! Tho, it isn't likely nintendo will ever lower the price on it knowing them haha

[@Trapperx89]

This video speaks to me. I remember playing old 2d games that had things in the background that made my imagination run wild. Even simple things like Mario 64. Many levels are islands surrounded by water and you can see more islands in the skybox. The library in SOTN actually made me want to own a library myself.

[@MecklesFrog]

That's exactly what made me want to make it! I always wanted to be able to go to the areas in the backgrounds of side scrollers and early 3D games, that feeling of being unable to get closer to something just had such a vibe to it that I didn't really have a word for until LIMINAL started getting thrown around

[@bobstevemd3265]

Thank you SO MUCH for the spoiler warning for undertail. I got stuck fighting a boss back in ( global lock down days ) and haven't picked it back up to beat it but I very much plan to !!

[@TheSpectralcat]

Rain World comes to mind when thinking of other 2d liminal worlds. Having so much in the backgrounds of the world, a lot of it only somewhat recognisable but not quite, and only being able to explore the world as a tiny Slug Cat focused on just surviving the strange and openly hostile world always captivates me. There's clearly so much world to explore, but it's all out of reach and without the perspective to fully understand it. Also this cat sits in that 'hasn't played Undertale' circle! That's one person at least! :P

[@MecklesFrog]

That's another one I need to get to! The artwork in it looks gorgeous :0

[@Ryanis1rash]

Honestly, this video is really good. Keep it up

[@MecklesFrog]

Thanks man! I definitely plan to attempt to keep it up haha

[@muracia]

I love this channel so much honestly

[@MecklesFrog]

Haha, thank you so much! I really appreciate you taking the time to watch several of my videos

[@jimiylenius9848]

such a well made video! i wonder what other kind of content he creates!

[@MecklesFrog]

Probably other cool videos and [redacted]

[@BunnyBoi-fl9et]

This vid was a relaxing watch, and I enjoyed the dive into the the meaning of what something being "liminal" actually is. ❤

[@MecklesFrog]

Thanks! Yeah I wanted it to be a bit more than just a top ten list haha

[@Toomanian]

Very glad to discover this channel

[@ikagura]

Why not the section of SotN where you go from one area to another?

[@MecklesFrog]

I had that one in the first script tbh, since it does fit the bill of "transitional" in the most literal fashion haha, but aside from that I didn't feel like I had much to say about it so I decided not to include it :0

[@leopardbunny]

Hey, since you're a fan of Undertale, might I suggest you check out Undertale Yellow? Not super relevant to the video, I just want to spread the word about it as much as possible, though I think it makes fantastic use of liminality too. Without spoiling too much, there's an old abandoned power plant, an empty house, a couple high locations overlooking cities...

[@MecklesFrog]

Undertale Yellow is def a game that's on my list! I keep hearing such good things about it :0

[@BlanktheNobody]

Jiminal really got me lol

[@MecklesFrog]

I was wheezing in my chair after recording that line tbh it's so dumb

[@Ofenna]

Warning for the scary jumpscares to save a nervous watcher from the cruel fate of being gnom'd: 0:28 0:50 6:05 23:15 26:25 Bonus horrifying boo: 30:40

[@MecklesFrog]

You are making it clear to me I may have put too many gnomes in this video

[@Ofenna]

Noooo, I just wanted to keep count ;A;

[@HelloMan181]

Love your vids

[@depsurrel5084]

the original pokemon games to come out in 1996 were pokemon red and ***green*** WRONG

[@MecklesFrog]

My career is over before it even started 😔