Is this Knockoff Alienware Better than a REAL One??

[@BobOfAllTrades]

Thanks LTT, glad you enjoyed it! I’ve been hired to be their Director of Technology. I’m currently exploring other thermal alternatives for our customers. Everything that was said in this video is 100% accurate 🙏

[@baboonaiih]

Congrats! Hopefully you can bring some great insight to the hardware!

[@sexytopramen]

Eyyy there you are, Bob. Are these still on the tongfang chassis? I have a 2070 mech17 and it still keeps up well for most games.

[@omnithewolf3628]

POGGERS

[@wolfram6583]

For the specs its packing and the launch price, I would have been so tempted to buy the 3070 model if I hadn't bought a desktop a already. Nice value.

[@StavrosZorbas]

Congratulations Bob on building a prominent machine and for appearing on an LTT video! It is quite an impressive journey for your channel! I am appreciating the unique naming of the laptop!

[@Graphics_Card]

Imagine buying knockoff gaming hardware that is better than the real version.

[@user-qh8vm1me5w]

i M a G i N e

[@Ferrari255GTO]

It might be better priced but it isnt better.

[@dylanchng4390]

I suspect Linux compatibility to be worse

[@Ferrari255GTO]

@@cybernate9093 but it isn't more powerfull, at least on benchmarks. I know benchmarks don't apply directly to games, but it represents the raw performance of the chip itself

[@Ferrari255GTO]

@@dylanchng4390 that is very likely since the AMD drivers were 3rd party and they will be very much useless on Linux

[@techienate]

On putting the logo on a skin... let's be honest, the cost isn't $20 to them... it likely costs pennies. A custom mold for making a logo for the back plate would cost in the five figure range for the tooling.

[@Dracossaint]

I think that's ignoring the fact that they're working with dbrand. They want a slice as well

[@tentimes]

In Canada the Prometheus is the same price as the Alienware. $4300 CAD for the 3080 configuration.

[@Dirt_Serpent]

Ltt is in Canada lol

[@markdove5930]

Just go with Alienware don't f around with that amount of money

[@jumpierwolf]

@@Dirt_Serpent they appeal to the US audience.

[@Shakshuka69]

Who would pay that? You could get a 3080 desktop and a decent non-gaming laptop for that money

[@dasjup]

@@Shakshuka69 maybe to game on the go?

[@sushimshah2896]

I'm pretty sure it's called the *"Sixteen"* and not X-V-I

[@refraag]

That is 16 in Roman numerals

[@nilaravi7404]

Me too

[@Hoaxe72]

That’s 16 in Roman Numerals

[@valarionch]

In spanish it would be "Sixteenth" as all roman numerals are read as ordinal, is it the same in english?

[@Hoaxe72]

@@valarionch no in England it’s said like the letter I think

[@Tony-nl6pf]

Whoever made this knockoff is so happy. They just got the best advertisement they could ever ask for. Without it, who would even know let alone consider a knock off.

[@Jackofafewtrades]

"Whoever made this knock off..." Bruh you're talking about Eluktronics and probably a tongfang chassis. Tongfang makes laptops for companies like MSI... or used to. Maybe not as much anymore. Still they're well known.

[@sexytopramen]

@@Jackofafewtrades lol seriously. Bob Of All Trades even works for them now. Eluktronics has been making decent gaming laptops for quite a while now. I have a mech17 with the 115w 2070. It's a few years old and still holds it's own.

[@Tony-nl6pf]

@@Jackofafewtrades Never seen a single product from a company named.... Electronics in broken English. They may be well known online but not in stores. Who cares who made it, what I said is still true. This is big advertisement.

[@nathancasey7712]

@@Tony-nl6pf How is it a knockoff it’s just another gaming laptop

[@Marin3r101]

Tony take your comments with your ignorance and head on out.

[@vicviper319]

It's good to see Eluktronics not going out of their way to make taking it apart near impossible, and even better they worked with Bob to make guides. It's no Framework, but this kind of attitude from a laptop company is refreshing.

[@MonsterIsABlock]

This is an example of how to make knockoff's actually good.

[@LightningSquad]

I uploaded my Face Reveal..

[@user-qh8vm1me5w]

I know right.

[@user-qh8vm1me5w]

@@LightningSquad I don't think anyone cares.

[@mirata7748]

@@LightningSquad Damnnnn thats crazy 🤩🤩🤩!! But who asked? 🤨

[@anharun]

This is a good example if Alienware wasn't acquired by Dell

[@xxxxzachxxxxx]

“Because of specs on the box like: AMD processor…” glad to see LTT isn’t dumbing things down for us 😂

[@adikeezl6033]

videos with Alex are usually like this, he is just not a great tech presentor

[@Xumatro]

If you actually watched the video, you'd know he went over all the specs in detail. IMO, just summing up the specs at the beginning of the video has no real added value and is just wasted time

[@xxxxzachxxxxx]

@@Xumatro I did watch the video lol the fact stands that the sentence “specs like Ryzen processor” do not belong in any part of a tech video. Maybe you’re the audience they aimed it at if you think that’s worthwhile content

[@TheGinGear]

Guys, he was making fun of the box listing "AMD Processor" as a spec, as they usually have completely useless information like that rather than listing the actual specs. It seems like ALL of you really did need it dumbed down

[@Jc-dm9gn]

R/whooosh all of you missed the joke lmao

[@allenellisdewitt]

This was, for me, a much more USEFUL style of review/exploration of a laptop.

[@rtoms]

When a knock off is worth more than your entire setup... :/

[@Arkeshan]

Worth 6× more than my pc

[@Clickscap]

When your setup is less than 400 dollars I can't even run apex

[@Dr.Spatula]

@@Clickscap I feel like that was $400 poorly spent then

[@Clickscap]

@@Dr.Spatula my dad got a shitty laptop for my school so what could I do it was a suprise A bad suprise at that At least I can get 60fps in Minecraft And 45 in COD

[@dkrampage2933]

@@Clickscap I got a HP DB15 in 2018 at 300usd I can play Apex at 720P 40FPS low settings... What kind of Laptop did Your Dad bought??

[@420bobby69]

i did it!!!! the end is finally in sight! i figured out the URL, beat the rage inducing mini game, and waited in the queue...but then i remembered I have a net worth of like $500. F

[@AntonioNoack]

F 😁, maybe in the future, you'll have better luck. I am at max in the market for a 600$ GPU, currently rocking a RX 580 (got it for 200€ in 2019, I believe). So even if I would have been recent enough, 2k is way over my budget as well.

[@Heathmcdonald]

Better than most people who end up with negative net worth due to debt

[@ahosheshi4849]

I have $990 buget

[@ilnahro3008]

The VAG program isn't what it used to be since board partners and nVidia (with the 3080 Ti) started participating in the scalping (can't blame them given the mining absurdity). Between the MSRP from nV being $200 too high and MSI asking for another $400 on top of that, they are basically charging what miners are willing to pay for that performance. With the price in the video, I can get a 3080 Ti FE for less on eBay or board partner model from a normal retailer for about the same here in Germany, with much better warranty, not to mention easier support/returns, included. Worse yet, I got a 3090 FE from the official local retailer here at the end of July for less.

[@Диана-х6ф1ъ]

Did you know Alienwares name was chosen because of the founders' fondness for the hit television series The X-Files, which also inspired the science-fiction themed names of product lines such as Area-51, Hangar 18, and Aurora. In 1997, it changed its name to Alienware. :)

[@DxBlack]

Didn't know, didn't care, still don't.

[@Lord_Reset]

That is pretty neat, thanks for the info!

[@Диана-х6ф1ъ]

@@DxBlack You care enough to comment...

[@Диана-х6ф1ъ]

@@Lord_Reset No problem! :D

[@Константин-ш3к]

Thats neat

[@Neoxon619]

I’m getting flashbacks to the counterfeit LTT merch video where the knockoff mousepad was actually pretty solid. But in that case, the counterfeit version still wasn’t as good as the original.

[@correction2569]

@@idkanymore3382 your name is cringe

[@Goro_Maj1ma]

@@idkanymore3382 You're cringe 😬

[@shala_shashka]

@@idkanymore3382 shit bait try harder

[@nikolaychervanyuk277]

Although they won't see performance boost from applying liquid metal, over time the termal paste will dry out and cause performance drop, whereas liquid metal is considered to not dry out, hence you won't worry about changing it in the long run

[@EiP_]

Whoever designed the VAG game clearly didn't get the memo. Linus is short! he's too tall to make these jumps!

[@Robin.93]

16:10 aspect ratio + 165Hz screen + AMD = perfect

[@8Harbinger8]

They didn't even put it in the performance mode :D , Legion 7 beats both laptops overall.

[@mini9503]

@@8Harbinger8 Yes, but Legion 7 is a lot more expensive. Having that total package for this price is preferable to most buyers.

[@RedXBruteBS]

They added a mux switch for the 4k panel btw

[@sandwichmeats1753]

Lol, $2200 for the verified gamer 3080 ti after tariffs, taxes, and shipping to the USA. It's cheaper to buy off a scalper on eBay.

[@Thetrancemix]

Many of the 3080TIs out there at that price are the lower MSRP models and many people have complained about scalped or resale 3080,3080 TI and 3090s have died on arrival or shortly after. Suspicion is that most of them are pre-used in crypto mining and were taken out of rotation, sold on eBay or Amazon shops to recoup costs at a profitable amount. I'd personally trust Linus over a scalper or 2nd hand reseller. Not Linus fault he is in Canada and you're in US. That being said, it was a great offer for Canadians and included other countries given demand is high, stock is low and the market is greasy with DoA pre-used GPUs.

[@BaconPersuasion]

I bought an eluktronic mech 17 almost 3 years ago and it still runs like a champ. I game daily for many hours a day on it.

[@justjeremiah9680]

Mom: we have Alienware at home Alienware at home:

[@OnBrandRP]

It's so weird not seeing Linus do these reviews anymore. But really refreshing.

[@deadly_mir]

We live in a time were 90fps at 4k Max settings is "disappointing" Also, they still failed to realize the Alienware also has a mux switch that's disabled in bios by default. That said, its already technically faster than this one, but for the price, this one isn't no slouch

[@jklusky2425]

Yeah technology is getting better its been like that for a while. People that gamed for longer were probably surprised when games were at higher fps than like 5-10

[@elliotdeclet594]

They do know it was mentioned in a comment under the dell review before this video came out

[@lensineer]

That unashamed plug for the deskpad although it suffocated the laptop is just brilliant!

[@techienate]

Please do a video testing if laptop performance is changed by sitting on a desk pad, and various other surfaces.

[@Cy12237]

Glad they’re still doing laptops even without Linus

[@user-qh8vm1me5w]

#WeHateLinus!1! 1!1!1

[@Thegamingpenguin]

@@user-qh8vm1me5w #welovelinus

[@MinistryOfMagic_DoM]

To be fair, Alex has been doing laptops as the main review guy for years.

[@chosebines51]

There's nothing wrong with Linus promoting the Framework laptop :-)

[@WayStedYou]

They've already been doing it without Linus for years

[@mistere5857]

These shortages are out of control. All the cards were sold out within the first hour?? Look at the barriers to getting a card: >click on the video >watch the video until the secret message popped up. (Or get lucky scrolling) >decode the message >play and beat the minigame >pay $1500+ to order a card. That's insane.

[@alternamasaki429]

"Look at this splashscren" For a moment i thought it got censored in post

[@samuelmagilocusts2870]

I can’t imagine paying $1600 for a 3080ti at retail price that’s insane! What the heck is MSI thinking. Every time I go to microcenter they literally have a self full of MSI cards because they are so stupidly overpriced! Evga is where it’s at, I bought my FTW3 3080ti for $1399 at microcenter. I recommend you all do similar.

[@The_Keeper]

Lol, only buy EVGA if you're ready to RMA the same card 5 times. EVGA has absolutely terrible design, and use the cheapest components possible. No thanks. (Do NOT get MSI either, they try to bury bad reviews from small channels with legal threats.)

[@samuelmagilocusts2870]

@@The_Keeper You do have a point. The ftw3 is the main card that has been having those crazy issues with mosfets and Amazon’s game. At least they aren’t as expensive as MSI. I would much rather had gotten the Aorus Master or Asus Strix but oh well.

[@Pslamist]

Congrats in advance to anyone that's able to take advantage of what Linus talked about. 🤝

[@walkinmn]

Which was?

[@zachHitz]

@@walkinmn the verified actual gamer program was mentioned

[@walkinmn]

@@zachHitz oh ok, thanks!

[@mianunya7607]

im impressed by it being 1300 bucks less and also being only a little less fast in that first performance test. kinda makes the performance on the other 2 not seem worth 1300 bucks more but more like 500 bucks or less of a price increase. very nice.

[@Alphalaneous]

Someone messed up the aspect ratio, gotta love that letterboxing

[@brandon_nope]

Why the hell are there black bars in the video

[@gabrielschirmbeck400]

[internet]: now that linus invested in framework all laptop videos are biased to make framework look good [LMG]: LOOK THIS AMAZING AMD-ALIENWARE KNOCK-OFF

[@leetaylor1443]

bias is not Linus style from what i have seen

[@Jsteeeez]

Thats why its Alex reviewing laptops not linus

[@gabrielschirmbeck400]

​@@Jsteeeez yes, for a long time. but many suggested LMG drop laptop reviews, which i think is kinda silly.

[@gabrielschirmbeck400]

@@leetaylor1443 bias is inherent to human beings. but if you compare his investment in the company vs losing his reputation of almost 10 years of youtube. I dont think he would risk it, Linus really cares for his company

[@tulus38]

@@gabrielschirmbeck400 is it Linus personally invest in Framework instead of LMG? That's why Linus won't review laptops anymore, but everyone else at LMG can

[@charlesjmouse]

It's a tricky one: -On the one hand I would say an 'experience' is much more useful than an 'review'. -On the other hand how would you maintain consistency across 'experiences'? (Maybe consistency isn't important, but maybe have a main 'experiencer' and someone to give an alternate impression.)

[@rlb3418]

I think benchmarks against competitors and some complaints gets pretty close to a review.

[@ivailok3376]

The way you spelled XVI instead of using the Roman numerals reminds me of how I used to call GTA 4.

[@norbertbaylon7733]

While folks behind Ryzen Controller and other third party software do an amazing job, AMD should really just bring Ryzen Master support to Ryzen Mobile

[@kidwajagstang]

This reason is why I love the desktop AMD CPU equipped “laptops”. Just wish they had an actual desktop BIOS especially since my “laptop” is stuck with a 3 year old version of AGESA since they don’t want me to have compatibility with Zen 2 or 3 CPU’s, despite the motherboard being otherwise fully capable of handling the updated CPU’s

[@AirForceBase]

Would you ever consider doing a test of laptop cooling pads to see which ones are actually worth it?

[@simian5805]

SO MUCH camera bounce!

[@llynellyn]

Been using desktop replacement laptops for over 15 years and can honestly say battery life has never been a concern, they function more as a built in UPS than a proper battery in these grade of units anyway.

[@delilahjames1696]

“The key to trading success is emotional discipline. If intelligence were the key, there would be a lot more people making money trading… I know this will sound like a cliche, but the single most important reason that people lose money in the financial markets is that they don’t cut their losses short.”

[@devidgeorge5695]

Assets that can make you rich

[@devidgeorge5695]

Bitcoin Stocks Real estate

[@brittanyronald208]

Bitcoin is the most profitable investment online if you could trade with a professional broker that will guide you through the process

[@leahdevid984]

@@brittanyronald208 How do I start with a professional broker

[@brittanyronald208]

❶❹⓪⑦③⓪❺❷⓪⑧⑧

[@TD1237]

I understand the Alienware comparisons but wouldn't call this a "knock-off", personally.

[@kepeter97]

it would be so great if everybody had the option of going to a store to try these for themselves. I tried like 30 laptops in all price ranges, and I found one that is perfect ever since (3-4 years). Rigid, comfortable, with good keys, good performance and really silent. The battery is kinda shot, but that comes with the age I guess.

[@TheAtqthe30th]

Honestly battery replacements are pretty easy to do and cost relatively cheap. I'm unsure on the model of your laptops. Some devices don't allow battery replacements without a lot of hassle (Microsoft surface devices).

[@kepeter97]

@@TheAtqthe30th I have taken it apart multiple times, I'm just hesitant to buy a new battery. Maybe once I get a job..

[@stephenathon]

Eluktronics used to make most of their stuff with branding on the lids but I hear a lot of customers asked for the clean look with no brand.

[@andyl7367]

there is a problem with the video at 8:54

[@javithegreat8462]

I have an alienware and the magnesium chasis is great but it will break as opposed to the aluminum where it has more flex to it. The corner where the hinge is located snapped because my usb c cable got in between the opening when I went to shut it. Maybe that wouldn't of happened if it was aluminum.

[@vilgefortz3131]

the Lenovo Legion 7 rainbowing around is so damn ugly. And imagine with what bug my own legion came with few days ago? The well known hardware issue, that you can't turn off RGB on the keyboard, rainbowing around in every second the device was on, sent it back immediatly.

[@sp0tb11m]

Everyone always does Dell's XPS laptops, but no one ever does Dell's G Series Gaming Laptops. Could you review one of those?

[@HokgiartoSaliem]

It just me or in the benchmark section, the alienware screen a bit too red vs Lenovo and other laptop. It is in Cinebench R23.

[@maxcro19]

I liked the format and video, but the camera was tooooo shaky and at some point I thought it was on purpose

[@markfeuchter2051]

Just wanted to say thank you to everyone at LTT for all they do and the gamer program!

[@666thsense]

i have a brand new eluktronics sister machine, the max 15 and the main attraction of eluktronics is that they allow the GPU to run uninhibited...and they're cheaper. you can get the FULL wattage out of the GPU plus overclocking if you used the included eluktronics controller. why you went with the ryzen controller app is beyond me...

[@twizz420]

Why don't CPU companies just make larger CPU's with more die area so that they can dissipate the heat better? It's not like you'd be starved for space in most systems even if you doubled the surface area of the die. There are ITX threadripper and X299 boards, so it's not impossible to put a larger socket on even the smallest boards. Yeah, it would hurt latency a LITTLE, but I don't think it would be enough to negate the thermal benefits of running a larger die.

[@the_realham7370]

anyone else notice the screen glitch when he said "the best display bench mark"?

[@mechanicallycreative9788]

I've done just fine with my evoo Walmart laptop. It has a 2060 i7 9750h I think it was like $1050. Seemed to benchmark at the higher end of equivalent laptops and has good airflow surprisingly. Obviously purchased two years ago it's robably at least 50000 now.

[@jezues1286]

No

[@mechanicallycreative9788]

@@jezues1286 Maybe?

[@dlaroc]

Its crazy the price of this knockoff is about the same price the Alienware 17 used to be only 4 years ago.

[@Stratos1988]

Whatever you're feeding host with, give him half. He's chucjling every 10 seconds...

[@iFix.]

Quick question, were are we on the framework disclosure on videos? Linus is still listed as director/producer, was this shot before the investment? how is that gonna work?

[@Demonspeeding251]

I had an Eluktronics MECH 17 and it was a great laptop!

[@CaptainOverLoad]

And for the low price of 2,599.99 you to can have a paperweight that can’t be upgraded in a year.

[@OpalAeon]

I'm on LTT store right now and just completed the game - though I have no plans on buying a GPU since I don't have the money for it. :) Cool video, as always!

[@penguinguyx]

Aren't the HX parts lower power than the H parts. While their performance per watt is better, they also seem to have a lower ceiling for overall performance.

[@Alex-yq8hk]

You've got it reversed

[@-a6833]

Is the battery easily removable? Or is it glued in place? That's easily most important of all upgradability, considering batteries die every few years probably before you even need any upgrades

[@JamesColeman12]

i bought the alien m17 before and it was definitely cool to have and looked great, but the MSI stealth and the MSI prestige that i got was a much better value and still able to look good at the same time. im typing this on an Alienware r11 btw. so yeah a big alienware fan but i just dont know if i want to spend that much extra on a laptop since there is so much other cool designs out there to choose from.

[@KevinMillard68]

put all power and all advanced and sleep crap to off then youll have your pcs running full out performance then retest and see what happens

[@excitedbox5705]

It is not a knock off it is a Whitelabel product in BOTH cases. A lot of people don't realize that a lot of the brand name products you buy are not brand name at all and in some cases the "brand name" is the knock off. They buy a design or product from china and have the company put their logo on it and jack up the price 300%. A great example is Voltcraft Oscilloscopes. The actual Manufacturer is Hantek and you can buy the same scope for less than half directly from Hantek. I paid $285 for my Hantek 5000 series and the same scope from Voltcraft costs over $1k.

[@mcd5082]

Bob of all trades is a monster with laptops. He will move them in strides.

[@Webtroter]

yeah, i could feel it wasn't a normal review. I liked the format, but I hope you'll still have normal reviews or at least something about the long term use of the device.

[@ryanbarnes3548]

Got a score of 4406 by just changing max temp to 99 deg on my my 5800h 3070 m15 Alienware didn't want to wait an extra month for the 5900h

[@morstyrannis1951]

Speaking of janky, what's with the cables hanging above the kitchen cabinets?

[@-_YuvrajSingh_-]

I guess the cinebench score is like that due to the boost behaviour of ryzen chips, which reduce the boosts after I guess 12 seconds to keep the temperatures low

[@charlescostain8066]

Was the laptop running in single channel memory mode? What was the speed of the ram.. If you swapped out the ram with 2x fast modules how much performance uplift do you get?

[@guadobobey5785]

when he slaps the laptop it freaks me out for a sec cause i push on mine slightly too hard it shuts down

[@itsophishle7044]

$3k laptop, nah, I'm building a desktop for that price.

[@Realvamp27]

There’s some weird artifacting at like 9:51 and idk if it’s on purpose or not.

[@kuunib7325]

Honestly Dbrand is awesome I would have liked a skin to come with my laptop. But well I had to order one.

[@silencer2703]

*Price goes up by like 10% after a few minutes

[@KJ-wo2iy]

Just compared prices online. I’d say the Alienware is better priced right now for what you get vs the Prometheus

[@SHADOWLEGENDDRAWS]

Hey editor of LTT, there is a issue in 8:52 of the video. Pls do check it out

[@Harlizzlee]

alienware better introduce a new pcie 4.0 16x egpu option (8x for gpu and 8x for accessories) to compete.

[@kman1898]

I will never understand why you guys test these laptops sitting flat on a table. They have fans on the bottom and you’re just completely suffocating them by having them flat on a table. Anytime I use my gaming laptop for my job, which is all I use it for, I have always had some kind of lift on it to ensure it gets the best cooling a.k.a. the best performance possible.

[@penedrador]

Laptops should be built so that you don't have too help them though

[@sanfayyaad]

Because most people would have them flat on a table. It is a realistic expectation when gaming.

[@kman1898]

@@sanfayyaad first of all maybe test both? Second of all no they wouldn’t. Every laptop gamer I know uses them slightly propped up or on stand

[@markroper9269]

Great info! Thanks!

[@Biggkenny]

Doesn't the lack of performance improvement from liquid metal mean that their cooling solution can't keep up? That it's fully saturated already

[@Finwolven]

What, no crab rave comparison? How can we know if the on-board speakers are bad or horrible?

[@willdtechthings2683]

You have referenced the logion in at least 2 reviews now , this and the x17 however I don’t understand why you haven’t formally reviewed it ?

[@thecaptinUS]

Thank you! I finally was able to buy the graphics card. Very grateful

[@kovspbru]

RAM timings, maybe ? Did both AMD and Intel get same ram ?

[@Christosan88]

On the Prometheus 16, Is the lid aluminum too?

[@steamedwatermelon2165]

Still don't regret my Legion 5 17" with an i7 and rtx2060. You keep showing me better, more powerful laptops, but I can't hear you over my fans

[@inachu]

Hey Linus! When are going to get a LTT cyber coin so we can start mining it?

[@whatsupbra43]

Better thermal paste or liquid metal could help

[@hongluzhang7771]

when it is able to compare against something nearing double the price, i think it already proves itself

[@StuffedCake]

If you can hear the fan super clearly when everything from the video to the host's mic has noise cancelation in it, it's going to be loud as fuck.

[@roykjear4195]

if there anything like hp they throttle them back instead of cranking them up the last hp i bought had a fx processor 8800 they turned it down for what it is capable of doing last hp i ever bought

[@glitterkitten9499]

Ughh, my laptop broke and I was about to buy the Prometheus XVII but now it's out of stock due to this video. It was four hundred dollars off too... :c

[@Blue-Lady]

Hmm, hope other laptops now drop in price.

[@pijen]

where's the crab rave speaker test, Alex?

[@monotrope]

13:45 The liquid metal statement over there is either a blatant lie or a misunderstanding by LTT and I'm going to hope it's a misunderstanding by LTT. Ask me why and I'll explain.

[@johnhauser5939]

I have to be the biggest fans of this channel and I like Alex a lot. I wish he would be more him self then Linus