Lion Rampant Discussion Points - Activations and the Scots dilemma.

[@techsaint]

In my view, I’d stick to the rules when it comes to activations. The re-roll is all about command, those within command range have a better chance of activating. Having units beyond command range is risky, and therefore you are making a conscious decision to have a unit out of command, you should pay the penalty if their activation fails and your turn ends.

[@wargameshobby]

Fair points 👍 Maybe only use the house rule for larger games only. Thanks.

[@historyboy32]

We do the same as you regarding activation. As you say, it doesn't specify this in the rules, but our view is that it is implied by the overall description of the activation rule. The house rule that you and the others have come up with regards to being more than 12 inches away, is really clever and I think we will give it a go.

[@wargameshobby]

Yes, that house works well, but maybe for 24 point games we should stick to the rules as written. It’s great to hear everyone’s views, it is good to hear what other do as well. Overall, no matter what option we use, we all appear to enjoy the rules, they are good fun and easy to play, something I need these days. 😂

[@botteu]

Hi Alec! Enjoyed the video as always. Before I say anything about the activation rules I want to say that I think it's perfectly reasonable to play the activations like you and Graham do. It should be enjoyable to play a game and you should do what makes sense to you to make it so. But I do think that the rules are pretty clear on how activation works: Like you quoted from the rule book, a failed activation ends you turn but, once every turn, you may re-roll an activation for move, shoot or attack if the unit you're trying to activate is within 12" of the leader (including his/her own unit). If you succeed with the re-rolled activation you can continue your turn as if nothing has happened. That's what a re-roll is. It basically erases the history of the first roll. So, in that sense it only takes one failed activation to end your turn.

[@wargameshobby]

Yes, agreed. We have chatted and have agreed to try out sticking to the rule exactly as it is in the book for 24 point armies, but on bigger fights we will use our house rule which everyone seems happy with. We will see how it goes anyway. 😁👍

[@billdodds2448]

Thanks for videos from you and Graham. Maybe add an ammunition roll for longbows, on 3plus fire, if fail ammunition spent. On activation maybe give general so many dice for game to spent when reroll missed?

[@andrewoates5364]

Hello! a good watch as always, and I wanted to say that our wargames group have adopted your "one mulligan system" as we call it, since its a good compromise between the original rules, and the optional rule allowing all units to attempt to activate. As for the scots, I watched Grahams last video and have been thinking about it at length. I'm not sure I've come up with any good advice, you be the judge. When I think of the Scots of the time (in comparison to the other forces at least), I think of them being comparatively quick, less-equipped, and numerous. I would suggest running the Scots with lots of Light foot (the aforementioned pike/spear men) and Warrior Foot (with collections of swords and other grievous weapons), mostly without upgrades, giving you many miniatures on the field. You will always suffer plenty of casualties as the Scots against bowfire, but if you are lucky (and numerous) you can still make it into contact against the bowmen (and have enough units to go around intervening cavalry/elite foot and the like). I really want to see the Scots (and Graham) pull off some good victories. Cheers!

[@wargameshobby]

Hi Andrew, I think the more numerous idea using a mix of light infantry, warriors and skirmishers may be the answer. It would not matter losing a few units as long as there are enough to replace them. Me and Gra will try that out. 😀

[@joeladkins1046]

I do a "rally" step where if one loses activation you can try to Rally the unit at the beginning of your turn using the higher value between Move or Attack and adding one for a Rally attempt. It can be modified by the unit being below half strength resulting in a harder roll or if unit is within 12" of Leader it's a bonus

[@wargameshobby]

Interesting. It's nice to try different things. Some improve the game, others don't quite work out, but still good to try.

[@TheEccentricMan]

We were not happy with the first iteration of activation, and had already made adjustments prior to the release of 2nd edition. We now play on first failure a unit within 12 gets a re roll, if it pass fine, if not the activation turn continues but the unit gets a plus 1 to move. So a unit needing 6 would then need 7, if it fails you can move on to the next unit but that then adds plus and so on until all have tried to activate. If it passed the next unit would only have the plus 1 penalty. I hope that makes sense. I think I need to think a bit more about the Pikes.

[@johnlambert2970]

Hi Alec, the Scots demonstrate a problem with the system. I played a DR army with good shooting capabilities, foot units got slaughtered before they could make contact. Perhaps drop to 3 units of spear and one unit of heavy cavalry to take on the bow or 3 spear and 2 additional skirmisher units to take on the bow

[@wargameshobby]

Yes, I think the additional firepower of bow/skirmishers will help. Gra has just painted some up so I know he is keen to give them a go. We will play soon and record. 👍

[@evilstu3177]

Great video, very thought provoking. With regard to the Scots in LR, the game results (at least from what I have watched and what you have said) seem to mirror what would have happened in a similar situation historically. You may wish to consider the addition of more terrain to provide cover for the Scots to advance, or allow the Scots a small ambushing force, to mirror situations where they may have been more historically successful, if you are after a more balanced or interesting game? Having the Schiltrons as light infantry may help too. The other option is of course to give the Scots more points? Best of luck, keen to see how you progress on this one :)

[@wargameshobby]

You are correct, it reflects the problems the Scots had historically, so more terrain will most certainly help them. I also agree, light infantry may fair better then heavies, cheaper and faster. Gra just finished a unit of bows too, which may be useful. We will report back. 👍

[@TabletopHistory-ex7qn]

I also prefer the standard rule, because make the game more strategic and force people to take decisions and take their risks...

[@florianschoenfuss222]

Hi Alec, once again a very nice video on a heavily discussed topic. We in our Lion Rampant group stick to the original rules allowing only one re-roll in 12" of the leader. However, we never play more than 24 points, dice for which scenario to play, and love using the "Flighty Light Troops", "Random Leader Traits", and "just one inch gap between units" rules. Generally, we opt for well-mixed retinues, avoiding more than one unit each of Veteran Archers, Crossbowmen with pavises and/or Elite Infantry (these all being very strong). Regarding the Scots: First try them against other factions. Some skirmishers to screen the Pike/Spearmen are key to make them work. The problem rather lies with the (Later) English retinues. Any faction will have a very hard time against 2 or more units of Veteran Archers, especially if they interlock their fields of fire. Well, and play more of the scenarios requiring speed and mobility (Taxing Afternoon, The Fugative, Gentle Stroll etc.) We love your (and Grahams) videos here in Cologne. Keep on the good work and happy gaming! Cheers!

[@wargameshobby]

Some good points there Florian, we should definitely try out the 'Random Leader Traits', something we have not done yet. Maybe we should stick to the activation rule for strict 24 point games and only use our house rule for larger games. We will try the Scot’s with more skirmishers, also maybe light infantry which are cheaper and faster. Scenarios help too, some of which could favour Scots. Thanks for the input.

[@samuelobrist9985]

Same problem with my swiss pikes against the burgundians. I just take mobile shiltron, no pike rules. Historical they had support by elite cavalry from their allies and i take a companie of crossbow to deal with the archers.

[@wargameshobby]

Hi Samuel, Yes, crossbows are very useful, and a must for Swiss. Sadly the Scots did not use them, or at leastI don’t think they did. Gra does have some bows now, so we will see how they get on, but no upgrade to veteran as they should not be as strong as longbows. Or maybe 2 x skirmishers would be more useful?

[@grahamswargamevault2635]

Hi Alex. yep a good review...a thought, do you think LR games are designed wityh 24 points, or fewer in mind? Most of our games are 30+ points... Also the Scots, think i have played 5 lost 5, albeit i came close once..Perhaps, i should try them as warriors? however these also struggle a bit as well.. good points raised thou.

[@wargameshobby]

Yes Gra, maybe stick to normal rules for 24 point games. I fancy using Scots foot as mainly light infantry, cheaper and faster, with skirmish’s supporting them plus mad warriors? 4x Li, 2x skirmishers or 1x bow, 2x warriors. So 7 or 8 units in all depending on how you use the bows. 🤔

[@nirnman]

great video on two interesting subjects, having played the original rules and watched your video using version two I like the way you use the reroll rules where a turn doesn't end until you have a second fail if within twelve inches of the leader. and reverting to one fail per turn in the case of the leader having been felled by a "lucky blow." Wher for some reason the warband has been split into two groups I would allow the reroll to apply to both groupings having assumed that there is a "minor leader" with the group furthest away from the main leader until the main leader has fallen when only one fail to activate ends the turn. Scots infantry with a pike or any pike-armed unit will be slaughtered if the opponent has bows, let alone longbows, possibly as someone else has suggested sheltering them behind "Skirmish "troops might give them a chance to get into contact. the 24-point army limit does limit your options which is one reason why playing a game with equally balanced force in other systems does not appeal to me it is too much like tournament gaming. A possible solution is that the Scots might be allowed a dice roll where 1-2 gives one, 3-4 gives two, or 4-5 gives three extra units of "skirmish" troops to shield their PIkes.

[@terryd7852]

Hi! Perhaps you should restrict the amount of ammo the longbows can have. The Billhooks rules, for example, only allow six volleys to be fired throughout the game. Also, use skirmishers to soak up the fire enabling the pikes to approach closer. I don’t know what specific medieval period you play, but later schiltrons would have the better armoured men in the front ranks; being completely armoured in plate by Flodden. If nothing else, densely packed pikes should give a level of protection against long range drop fire, but not close range horizontal fire, of course. Alternatively, use some kind of weather rules in your games.

[@wargameshobby]

Some good points there. We will try and find a solution and report back. We think we are getting there. 🤔

[@shadowcouncil9570]

Perhaps more terrain to give the Scot army more cover, or swap out some infantry to include a cavalry or archer unit?

[@wargameshobby]

Worth a try. In fact you may have a very good point.

[@TheJoyofWargaming]

Why don't you give Scots 30pts vs a 24pt English army? If the English match up that well tactically, the Scots would only take the field when they have numerical superiority.

[@wildjump2]

I would add more terrain maybe so they could fight in the woods or sneak between houses. Sort of guerilla warfare

[@wargameshobby]

Yes, agreed. 👍