Lisa the Joyful - The True Ending

[@adelinehaley9428]

Buzzo's like "wtf, i'm getting roasted by an 11-year-old." Absolutely gobsmacked, this lad.

[@dr.loboto1171]

"I want mommy, I want milk, I want to be held, I want to be comforted" -Buzzo, shortly before mutating

[@ryucruz1911]

And if not, I will make your life a living hell *Proceeds to get diced into mincemeat*

[@Slop_Dogg]

This didn’t change Buzzo’s characterization whatsoever. He was always a little petulant coward, any semblance of confidence, control & power he wielded was gifted to him by Yado. He mutilated Dusty because he was the easiest target. He’s not even truly evil, he’s just subservient. It’s only until Yado casts him aside that he has a crisis of conscience. Buzzo is malicious weakness personified.

[@claus4670]

Dusty wasnt the easiest target though. He was the star of brads dojo. He mutilated dusty because he got in his way and he realized dusty meant something to brad

[@theseekersoflight2271]

​​@@claus4670I think he knew that Dusty is too kind to counterattack, more when they were partners in the past. That and Dusty being close to Brad are probably the reason why Buzzo hurted dusty

[@Slop_Dogg]

@@claus4670 Then why not just mutilate Brad himself? Buzzo chose to fuck with his stuttering adopted son not just because it would torment Brad. It was also the only option besides actually facing down Brad himself- something Buzzo couldn’t do until elevated by Yado.

[@theseekersoflight2271]

@@Slop_Dogg He also chooses to torture brad and not Marty armstrong who was the direct responsable, which makes him someone that doesnt dare to take the bulls by the horn but a sadistic guy or someone who's not brave

[@augustuzmoon3814]

This feels to forceful and a call out by buddy of all people? The game forces buzzo into a weak shell of a character than the man who was grief stricken

[@bowyatt9058]

I loved the uncles dialogue. Their afterthoughts are almost a perfect resolution to their characters

[@hasgames3231]

They also referenced what Marty said to brad during the secret boss too

[@gamingspacemonkey]

Poor sticky was the best among them.

[@adelinehaley9428]

25:54 This is the Lisa equivalent of a vine boom.

[@waltuh2412]

“Low blow Squidward. Low blow.”

[@RandomPersonuwontknow]

​@@waltuh2412*_Insert Fates here_*

[@unviewerrandom4792]

I love that in the end Brad childhood friends realised that there were not better that Brad ( especially Rick he was so mad jealous with brad that in the end he can't takt no accountability fo what he has done but still hate himself)... they were miserable selfish traitors and deeep down Buddy knew it

[@cville991]

And what about this then? kzbin.info/www/bejne/haCVgpSOj8pmhKc

[@ChaosUnown]

Buzzo had it coming to him. He already crossed the moral event horizon the moment it was revealed he was working with Yado. I don’t care how brutal it might have seemed, I loved watching Buddy rip him apart.

[@yourlittlepadawan]

Seeing in the comments that most people agree with the original ending where Buzzo is somewhat redeemed, I understand why is it so hard to get with the new lines of dialogue. But. Since i played Lisa: the First (after Painful), it's simply astonishing how Buzzo could say that she would like being in the apocalypse. How she would fit, implying she was a menace, a badass. A monster. She wasn't. She was a young girl abused by her father, trying to escape from the abuse, and meeting a selfish individual that wanted to be loved. Maybe they use each other to fulfill their desires. That's where her story ends. But to tell that this new ending is unfair to Buzzo is, at least to me, to agree with the mistreatment of the victims. Lisa was a victim. She wouldn't like it there. Hell, she wouldn't like it anywhere. She was drained of life by Marty. The first is her failes attents of suicide. So new characterization for Buzzo? Hell yea, fuck him. He appears just to kill Yado, no need for that, and proceeds to die seeking comfort in Lisa's memories. Buddy told him. It's not like Brad, it is yet another aelfish attempt to justify his action. Deal with it. Confront reality. One last time, since you never care to do it before. Fucking monster. And never, ever, get near Dustin again.

[@LZSD.00]

I agree with u brother

[@federicoislab]

What was the deal with Dusty? Been a while since I last reviewed the story

[@yourlittlepadawan]

@@federicoislab Dusty was a shy kid in Olathe who admired Brad as a teacher and also a father figure. Brad took him under his arm even though he got no money to pay him, along with Bernard and other kids. It's implied that was Brad second chance at getting himself together, yet Bernard ruin that for him. Thinking Brad was responsible of Lisa's death for leaving her, he breaks his dojo, fights Dustin and cuts his face, leaving him alive only to deliver "That's for Lisa", braking Brad and making him leave again his pupil, alone and scared. Buzzo's whole intent was to fuck Brad's life, and in doing so almost ruined Dusty. I said almost because for me he will always be the GOAT

[@augustuzmoon3814]

Didn't she force him to mutilate her and a puppy?

[@gamerdomain6618]

@@augustuzmoon3814 She just wanted him to get used to mutilating things so that she could manipulate him to mutilate herself so that she wouldn't be harrassed and abused by Martin. It was only ever about using him, not about torturing stray animals. That's why she waited until after Buzzo left her life to kill herself; she lost her last chance at some reprieve from Martin.

[@areaxisthegurkha]

I like how people here want to defend Buzzo even after he killed companions, cut off Brad's hand(s), mutilated Dusty's face,forcefully fed Brad joy and cut off Buddy's nipple.

[@iamthebuginsideyou5911]

Literally not even the case

[@marcuscuscus]

This ending is cathartic, and i totally agree with how people have been talking about this as a re-assessment on Austin’s part of how Lisa and Buzzo were represented originally. Lisa’s demonisation and Buzzo’s tragification does, in hindsight, suggest an underresearched and unpleasant take on abuse victims. They were children, and Buzzo is so obviously in the wrong in every way aside from in the original joyful ending. He bullied and mutilated Dustin, Held a pained and tortured individual accountable for Lisa’s death when the actual abuser seemingly escaped Scot-free, and played a major hand in the apocalypse. Lisa deserved none of what happened to her, as any child wouldn’t, and I think presenting her as an evil entity actually removed some of the nuance of the story originally. Very glad with how this ending changes things.

[@Cosplaybuddygiraffes]

Not really surprised to see a lot of hate for this new ending, but I think it fixes a huge issue with the original Joyful’s ending: Buzzo’s speech essentially removing all of Buddy’s agency in her own narrative. Buzzo literally tells her how to feel: “Brad wasn’t a bad person, I made him like this and he loved you.” And this never really sat right with me at all. Of course we know Brad since we were in his shoes, but Buddy only catches glimpses of what turned him into the violent, horrific man he’s capable of being. She’s justified in having extremely complicated feelings towards someone who’s both been a source of warmth and comfort and also a ruthless monster. Buzzo’s original speech takes away that nuance and tells Buddy that Brad was only a monster because of him, which we know isn’t true at all. Brad even before he became hopped up on joy was an extremely strict dojo master and violent towards students showing paternal affection- ala Dusty and even Buddy. It’s way more complicated than just “Lisa was fucked up and made ME evil to Brad so that’s why he hit you :(“ And to be fair, Buddy adding “It’s those damn pills,” creates the exact same issue in my book, (it’s not just joy that makes Brad act the way he does), but I think it’s a step up that Buddy calls out Buzzo on his bullshit. And I’ve seen the same shit before in friends I’ve left behind for doing horrible things: Saying empty things that absolve you of responsibility and tie things in a pretty, neat bow. Buddy takes back control and gives her perspective, of course she still holds so much contempt for Brad, but we know now that she truly SAW him when he cried, finally asking to be held by his daughter for the first time in his life. She is able to reconcile with the fact that her father’s life was a fucking tragedy, but she won’t let anyone else make hers into one either. As for the giant motherly figure at the very end, I’m not too sure how to feel about it, but it’s definitely not a literal ending and I don’t see how ppl can even think that the giant woman is real lol. I can really only compare it to the original good Joyful ending, where Buddy is caressing a newborn baby, and this ending I’ve also never been the biggest fan of. Again, it ties Buddy’s story into too neat of a bow: Hooray, she got preggers by some fuckin dude and the world is slowly, but surely, going to be repopulated! Except… Is that really a happily ever after? Is Buddy capable of performing such a huge feat, let alone being a good mother to this child? And Buddy never really gets a chance to talk about what it means to be the last person on Earth that can procreate, she doesn’t know how to or what being a mom even *is*. It feels like an empty “here’s the conclusion to the Lisa world’s lore” rather than being a good conclusion to the Armstrong family’s narrative, unless you interpret it as Buddy breaking the cycle of abuse and having the potential to be a better parent figure. Which, I think is what this new ending is implying. Buddy finally lets go of the Armstrong family’s cycle of abuse and is slowly learning to live a happier life, maybe even becoming a more nurturing person in the process. And if she repopulates the world? It’ll be because she became someone that has the mental fortitude and kindness to accomplish such a thing. Not just because she has a uterus.

[@anubiscerberus4348]

Let me fucking kiss your hands. I could clap if it wasn't for the fact that it is midnight and I don't want to wake my neighbors.

[@spookiiiiiiiii]

YES EXACTLY HOLY SHIT

[@seizuresalad1558]

Damn. Well said.

[@PugMaleAndSingle]

I want to buy you a beer man. Well said.

[@willyeeton4390]

The character analysis is perfect, but the thing about repopulating the world always bugged me. One woman just can't. Biologically. She can't have enough kids, and even if she had ten, all girls, who each had ten of their own, there's not enough genetic diversity to preserve a thriving species. Buddy having kids really only gives humanity a few generations until the first generation of men leftover from the apocalypse start dying of old age. So yeah, this is way better than that one, 'cause having a kid just doesn't make sense as a goal

[@joro8541]

God I loved buzzos new dialogue, finally! Something I can get behind in the new edition, I genuinely hated how in the original he got away with so much and was “redeemed” those words were pure perfection on what he deserved to hear. For what he did to Brad, for what he did to rando, and most importantly to Lisa, a coward who couldn’t stand up and be strong and say no to her when she was at her most desperate. He let Marty the one who tortured her survive and get away with it while he focused on Brad. I just could never understand why anyone thought buzzo deserved redemption, neither did Marty. Some people just don’t get that when they cross that line which both of them did. Yado was evil but at least he knew what he was, he didn’t try and act like he was a victim or that they weren’t themselves like buzzo and Marty did. I hated him so much and this was so satisfying to watch. This kind of made the definitive edition worth it to me.

[@Mattroid99]

Buzzo WAS a victim too. Lisa literally forced him to kill and torture animals, herself, tortured him psichologically to do all this ("Do this if you love me"), and by committing suicide it even made him feel like everything he has done was worthless and he had to cope with all this with rage and revenge on the people who held responsible. Do you really believe a young kid can not only confront himself with a violent abuser like Marty and a karate master like Brad, or to say no to someone he loves and that is clearly in pain? Is completely unfair to write all this off and pass him as the only piece of shit in the game despite all the scars he had. Not to say he was a good person, far from it, but negating his moment of introspection and closure is quite embarassing (Especially when he realizes his mistakes).

[@claus4670]

yayyy victim blaming!

[@Jack_Pepsi]

He was an accomplice to humanity's genocide for his own emotional issues, and if some people think there is no redemption in foxholes that's their right. As an aside I've heard some people say that the final dialogue is moreso in Buzzos head as he becomes a joy mutant as an alternative POV of his mind shutting his own narrative down which explains the extended duration of the scene

[@joro8541]

@@Mattroid99 You can be a victim and still suck, and most importantly it doesn’t negate your crimes. A guy can have a gun to your head and say kill a child or you die, you still have a choice and sometimes dying is better than living with doing something horrible to selfishly survive. Thats the problem I have with buzzo is that he was a coward and weak, a weak person who couldn’t stand up to someone telling him to kill animals, who couldn’t say no to Lisa who was mentally broken, who never once went after Marty even when he had the power to do so. He even became the number 2 to yado, he is always told what to do and would just do it no matter how awful it was. He could never make his own choice, which is beautifully ironic because he is the guy who is known for hard choices. Granted I do think there is a happy medium between the two versions that would be better, he really did not need to be calling for his mommy, and just because I hate him doesn’t mean he’s a bad character, the fact I hate him means he’s a really good character especially when I can say so much about him.

[@Mattroid99]

@@joro8541 Honestly? In that case a lot of stuff comes in, self survival, panic, etc. So the egoistic choice is far from unreasonable and I think is unfair to judge it as is. Different contexts apply different rules He was still a kid who didn't know better, I can't think of a 12/14 year old that would think that saying no to the person they love when asked to do very tremendous things like Lisa did would have been the best thing. Is not easy for a lot of adults either, is why so many people still fall under abusive men/women over and over. It takes a LOT of experience and self realization to make such a choice. In his mind he clearly thought he was doing something good for her (While it wasn't, the situation was not under his control), Lisa threw all her rage and trauma at him and used him as a tool. This doesn't justify all the awful things he did as an adult to both the people around him and especially Brad, but I think is important to at the very least understand his trauma and how he became the man he is in the game. Personally Buzzo is one of my favourite characters (Again, not because I find him a good person, but I really like his arc in Joyful and I find his backstory also very compelling. Is very clear that he realizes how toxic his relationship was at the end and tried to do something good), and the new ending was really unfair to him, disrespecting him as a character by a girl that isn't any better and knows nothing about him. Is absurd how he got way more shit by Buddy than Yado solely because he killed him in order to let her accept Brad as her only father. And he got humiliated for it, I just find it insulting

[@dr.loboto1171]

Everyone's talking about Buddy's complete and utter verbal obliteration of Buzzo, but I'm mostly just confused about who tf that giant woman holding Buddy at the end is

[@ArmoredarmadilloX]

That isn't buddy being held.

[@dr.loboto1171]

@@ArmoredarmadilloX Okay then who is that being held and who's the giant woman holding them

[@nicolasravellopino7774]

same question, unless THAT GIANT WOMAN IS BUDDY

[@ArmoredarmadilloX]

@@dr.loboto1171 probably buddy.

[@spoobert2676]

​@@ArmoredarmadilloXwhy's she so big ?

[@squidtopus7.029]

For people who don't get it : the giant blue women is lisa mother. You can see her in the first and painful as well. Buddy have the flowering skull (lisa skull) and buddy is seen as very similar person of lisa by people who knew her when she was alive, ( buzzo, brad, marty, ect..... ) Its not really mentioned but there speculation that lisa mother left marty for yado, its hard to get but in the painful you get to find a blue lady dead body in the joy lab, yado mention that is the biological father of buddy and dialogue of the neutral ending is showing a fight between yado and is wife about Nancy/buddy future. What happened at the end is that buddy and lisa soul and memory makes one and only at the end. The fact that buddy is being hold by her/lisa mother is a way to tell that buddy finally found peace in her mind, making a parallel with the first game ending when lisa slowly lose her mind and seeing marty face instead of her mother.

[@squidtopus7.029]

For people who mistook at the ending it is buddy being hold She still have her scar but its heal, you can see the light pink on her face if you focus on the sprite.

[@Mecceldorf]

You have two options: Give Buzzo his intended final boss fight. Or utterly demolish him by teaching Buddy morality. And I'm absolutely stoked by the results.

[@RevenantNeverDies]

this is what happens when you try and manipulate a child who has been manipulated its entire life. it already knows what youre doing because its seen manipulation countless times. and its not afraid to confront it

[@JonJohJameson]

25:50 YYYYOOOOOOOO! YO HOLY SHIT!

[@lolrus5555]

Not even a senzu bean or Joy's gonna fix _that blow._

[@ItzRainbowAxolotl102]

WHAT IS THAT DISTURBED THINGY!?

[@taraktaras7327]

@@ItzRainbowAxolotl102 Vine boom(TM)

[@GFCOLCQuote]

I kinda wish Buzzo didn't bite himself in this fight.I felt like that waas part of a struggle to keep Buddy safe so it was conflicting. I would have loved if he went BRUTALLY all out, NO rest turns.

[@natu_ure]

feel like thats just him doing a mutant thing, dont think his mutated brain was really thinking of buddy at all

[@theseekersoflight2271]

I love the idea, i would even add a new mutation in order to make it more interesting

[@yesok4244]

@@natu_ure I think that in game, once someone takes enough joy and turns into a mutant they release and show their innermost desires, so it's possible that he did indeed feel guilt and self hatred for himself because he didn't do anything to save lisa except for mutilating her on her request, and he didn't want to admit it before, this might explain why he's biting himself

[@robertdingle1129]

Buzzo and Lisa were into Self-Mutilation, Mutants try to live out their most basic instincts, being entirely engrossed into a flower, but also wanting to kill anyone/everyone that could be a threat to them. Biting himself is very fitting, and honestly there needs to be rest turns in a 1v1 RPG, or you risk it just being waiting turns for the Player.

[@arcueid0773]

okay, I will try to clear out how buddy knew about Lisa and talked about her like she knew her. I want to make one thing clear she didn't know her, but she pieced some shit together. I know this might sound like a stretch, but she was living with brad in the same house almost all her life, so she most of heard him mumble some shit about Lisa while he was drunk and based on the post credit dialogue buddy was curious about brad shit and was asking a lot of questions. what I'm trying to say is that she is not brain dead to not piece shit about Lisa and who she was, especially the fact she didn't have anything better to do because she was trapped however she talked big for her age. I kind of wished it wasn't one-sided roast

[@gamerdomain6618]

Just because Buddy didn't deserve that scene doesn't mean that Buzzo didn't either. He deserves to die as unceremoniously as Yado for what he did to Brad and Lisa, and Buddy's goddamn right about his character. He is a cowardly man-child and that has been apparant since LISA: the Painful.

[@arcueid0773]

@gamerdomain6618 Good thing the last skill buddy learns is verbal bash. And it can only be used against Buzzo.

[@seg162]

@@gamerdomain6618 If it was apparent, then there was arguably no purpose in having it spelt out in a circumstance where Buzzo is actively and rapidly expiring.

[@beauroberts4719]

This must be the best ending! All the flowers grown with the real women carrying her!

[@calvinanderson4245]

Dingaling is trying very hard to pretend that he never said Lisa was the most evil character in LISA.

[@pain_rain609]

Dingaling is a turd pretending to be muddy

[@stevenyukabacera160]

That was always a very silly statement

[@calvinanderson4245]

@@stevenyukabacera160 LISA is a silly series.

[@calvinanderson4245]

​@@pain_rain609wut

[@apollyonnoctis1291]

To me, I almost feel like buddy’s speech when she’s roasting Buzzo is Dingaling seemingly criticizing his own past views on how evil he said Lisa was.

[@hadoukenfighter]

the plot was never joyful's strongest suit but I'm shocked by how many people i've seen that felt sympathy towards Buzzo, this ending feels like a correction of some really bad takes Austin had years ago, I have no idea what he meant by "Lisa was worse then Marty" but i'm glad he's seemed to have shifted that stance. I think it might be that there's some rather unneeded questionable changes in this already(mostly the Play station stuff) and due to that people aren't willing to accept the newer stuff due to lumping it in with that. Main Point I guess of my ramble is "fuck Buzzo, I never liked Buzzo" and "it always felt weird to see any kind of defense force for Marty even if most of that came to people not having any context for Lisa the First".

[@fixer4u743]

Yeah there's some stuff I liked in Buddy's tirade and some I didn't. If she acted a little more out-of-the-know as to who Lisa is, and didn't say that "as a woman" line (it read a little weird to me in a setting very devoid of women) I'd say it's a good addition. Buzzo getting defensive after moments prior begging forgiveness seemed like the biggest clash between the old and new dialogue in my opinion, even if Buddy is really laying into him and his tributes to his hallucination girlfriend. At the end of the day I give some of the rougher bits of dialogue a pass, as these are two very mentally ill crack-addicted people yelling at each other on a cliff.

[@sirrealism7300]

How can you have bad takes on the narrative of your own game?

[@bloodyidit4506]

@@sirrealism7300 I think the dev had a think over after going through his life and fixed it because he really thought about the roles these characters played. I think part of this has to do with his own perception of people and how as a person, he's grown and understands more.

[@Poondaedalin]

For what it’s worth, that quote about how “Lisa was the worst” was taken partially out of context. Someone asked who Austin thought had it the worst throughout the game and he answered that “Lisa was the worst”. But, given Joyful’s ending, I think a lot of people took that combined with Buzzo’s dialogue to mean that Austin antagonized Lisa. Joyful is HEAVILY focused on the perspectives and biases of the characters, like Yado’s megalomania, Buddy’s messiah complex, and Buzzo’s deep self-hatred, and I feel like Definitive Edition worked off of that really well, even with Joy mutation affecting the perspectives of Buddy, Brad, and Buzzo. Buzzo is not a good person. Hell, NOBODY in this story is a good person. That being said, his love of Lisa is very unhealthy, and his acts of “retribution” towards people around him are monstrous. For his crimes of (in Buzzo’s eyes) not protecting Lisa and letting her get beaten and violated, Brad is sentenced to an eternity of empty suffering. Joy Mutants don’t seem to die naturally, only going dormant once their desires are fulfilled. Considering that Brad is still tied to a stake in Buzzo’s cave, it’s very likely that he will remain this way forever, sentenced to an eternity of painless suffering for things he could not control. Combine that with the revelation that Buzzo hears voices of Lisa commanding him to hurt Brad, and his characterization changes from a man eager to take revenge for the sake of love to a horribly sick man hanging on to age-old grief and twisted notions of what love even is.

[@robertdingle1129]

"Lisa is the worst" I cannot tell you what Austin thinks particularly about Lisa and her story, and I haven't played the new version yet, but Lisa is the entire reason a lot of people suffer in the games. She was abused by Marty, and it was also implied in one of the (at least in original) Lisa: The Joyful ending: Brad was forced by Marty to abuse her with a mixture of alcohol and threats. Lisa never forgave Marty AND Brad for this. This is why Brad hates himself and hates thinking of Lisa. It's why he feels guilty towards Buzzo, and why Buzzo hates Brad so much. Buzzo was manipulated by Lisa to self-mutilate and it became such a toxic relationship for Buzzo that he planned revenge against Brad for years after Lisa's Death. Lisa inadvertently made Brad and Buzzo toxic, who turned around and hurt other people. Now the same could be said about in a greater extent about Marty, but keep in mind one of the morals LISA the Series focuses on is: Moving Past Trauma. A lot of characters fail at this, but it's shown that even scum like Marty Armstrong can change, even if they don't deserve forgiveness, they can move on and stop hurting people around them. Lisa fails at this, just as Brad and Buzzo do, except Lisa made sure her suicide affect the people she cared about, leaving Brad and Buzzo even more broken. Finally, keep in mind that Austin has said that LISA: The First is based on his ex-girlfriend and her experiences of abuse. To Austin, the experiences & struggles of Lisa might be closer to home than any other singular character.

[@thepit7868]

Wasn't Lisa an abuser as well? It's not uncommon for the abused to be abusers themselves, she used buzzos love for her to make him do horrible things.

[@seg162]

I wouldn't call her an abuser, but hurt people often hurt people.

[@aswangmonkey361]

she was like 10 bro

[@HappySisyphus0]

@@aswangmonkey361 I mean buzzo too by that logic, you either blame both or none of them

[@aswangmonkey361]

@@HappySisyphus0 I don’t really blame either of them. They’re young impressionable kids molded by the environment around them. I’d rather blame the grown man who utterly shattered his daughter’s innocence and mind than Lisa herself.

[@cristianprado634]

​@@aswangmonkey361 You are too inocent bro

[@lunatic0verlord10]

40:39 Sums it up well.

[@dfgua]

Very strange ending

[@claus4670]

ouch. buzzo kinda got it bad here. i like the idea of buddy being more vocal in response to buzzo's speech but i feel like he got wrecked hard here. there were definitely better, more subtle ways to convey that his response to lisa's death was unjustified but here he is quite literally reduced to a crybaby.

[@elfertrn]

i think it was supposed to be him turning into a mutant making him regress even further to being just a baby after being stuck in the past for so long, wasn't conveyed the best though but i like the idea

[@sirrealism7300]

I mean he cut off a childs face i have no sympathy for him

[@bloodyidit4506]

The thing is Buzzo doesn't have Brad's real excuses. Brad's past is horrific especially considering his father's abuse. At no point did Buzzo back out of enabling Lisa's problems, and he has the fucking gall to torture Brad over it in the present, as well as harm Buddy in an intimate way then ask for forgiveness. Buzzo is just a piece of crap who never changed.

[@claus4670]

@@sirrealism7300 im not saying he didnt deserve to suffer more but buddy's speech feels no less patronizing to the player than buzzo's original speech. Its kinda like austin saw those blogs and such criticizing buzzo's redemption and backpeddled too hard

[@claus4670]

@@MrTheBest2WasTaken probably by not making the dude who suffered childhood trauma out to be worse than the guy who destroyed the world and used his daughter as a tool to start a war here like another commenter said. the "mommy's milkers" stuff didnt help the context either. buddy's speech felt like it just re-explained the game's morals while at the same time ignoring them by putting all the blame on one guy. since painful it was implied buzzo felt remorse for everything, he at least deserved to solemnly agree with buddy's statements in acknowledgement it was too late for things to change. making him act like some big supervillain that was behind it all to an equal extent as yado felt like tearing down that build up as well and agreeing that he deserved worse than the series big bad (aside from marty).

[@ImFangzBro]

I find that LISA often hides subtle stuff in the dialogue, and that's why her rant to Buzzo doesn't feel like she's projecting onto him, to me. She's 12, and hasn't taken the vaccine yet, so I imagine her emotions are running high, and she admits she "admired" him, past tense, at the start of the rant. This, to me, makes it feel less like projection and more like she's realized how horrible he is and that she shouldn't want to be like him. It's a decision not to end up like him, rather than hypocrisy.

[@ghostface6387]

Although i agree that buzzo is a spineless coward, i never got the impression that in the end he still was some egomaniac who thought he was the ruler of the world or very important. It seemed he always hated yaddo even while working with him and he didnt care about the world and only cared about hurting brad. And in the end when it was all finished and when he looked at what he did, he was unsatisfied and still hurt in a way he couldn't describe. I wish when buddy called him out and he got all pissed and defensive, he instead just rolled over and took it and wallowed in his own self pity. It felt out of character that he lashed out in that moment

[@miguelferreira5873]

mom armstrong and buddy was peak lisa and her tea was also peak

[@marmo1596]

I can't believe I pushed to solve that esoteric puzzle and this was the ending I got. I way prefer the small arch Buzzo had in the original, admitting what he did to Brad was unjust but still getting the death he deserved, screaming about someone he was obsessed with as he dies. What Buddy adds to their conversation really detracts from that IMO. I'm also not a fan of Buddy being crazy mean regarding things she really shouldn't know. Everyone around her was very secretive about Lisa, why is Buddy acting like she knows her? "Maybe Lisa would still be alive if she never met you." is insane coming from her, and "I want my biiiiiinnnnkkkkkky." felt like character assassination. The end convo between Buddy and Brad was nice though. Not sure how I feel about the, seemingly really symbolic, scene of her being cradled. Especially after going off Low Tier God style.

[@wandereringshadow8658]

I think its met to imply theres some kind of genuine supernatural element to the world of Olathe. Which... I guess makes sense, given the whole warped time, literal fireball powers, and other magical elements we see.

[@spookiiiiiiiii]

We know that joy fucks with your mind the whole "I want my binky" thing happened just as he turned

[@seg162]

I don't even want to interpret "I want my binky" as character assassination because it's happening as Buzzo turns, but I find it excessive-- the guy was already emasculated, reduced into something overtly pathetic, and is forced to turn into something he created time and time again. It's garish specifically because his character was already complete, and the line adds content without deepening character. I don't have to turn myself in pretzels trying to justify a Lucasian retcon to a nearly decade-old game. I *am* willing to understand what Jorgensen sought to accomplish here, and at least appreciate that.

[@tropicturtle9021]

Thing is, Buzzo REALLY didn’t deserve any kind of redemption for all the insane shit he pulled, especially not one that came so abruptly. He basically just decided “I’m cool now” after systematically ruining brads life over something that was nowhere near as much brads fault as buzzo pretended it was. For him to try and pull a last minute redemption after he’s effectively killed the world and done every bad thing he wanted to do, just comes off as a pathetic attempt to find closure before his inevitable death. Which buddy calls him out on. Buzzo didn’t deserve closure, he did literally nothing to earn it outside of saying “My bad” about 100 hours too late. Hes a sniveling, hypocritical, control freak coward who didn’t even have the balls to die content with the terrible shit he spitefully devoted his life too.

[@Car-rp8dg]

What A game. Truly a beautiful experience

[@gamingspacemonkey]

I like this change. However, I don’t like how it seemed like it wasn’t originally intended. Buzzo was a convenient figurehead to moralize at Buddy, but I don’t think that was a good excuse to redeem him. Give Lisa a conversation with Brad, or herself, or some figment of her mind. You have a drugged out hallucinating protagonist, you can invent figures to represent morals.

[@TobTob.]

the blue door in the left of the lab doesn't spawn for me, do I have to do something first? I can go through the wall but not find a door

[@marmo1596]

You need to be doing a joyless playthrough for the door to appear.

[@TobTob.]

I noticed and cried as I replayed the fight with 1 firebomb and no joy

[@corey7457]

Seeing this ending and the dialogue at the end between brad and buddy, stills bother me on the whole “my daughter will not be weak” which I’m sure was there originally for shock factor whenever the game released. And doesn’t make any remote sense story wise, like the whole “he was abusing substances and that’s what made him way worse of a parent then he could’ve been” works to a point I think this characterizes brad as “he had some issues but he could’ve been an alright parent if buzzo didn’t fuck with him and supply him with joy, painkillers, and alcohol as he was trying to overcome his addictions” and brad still had his short comings as a person that this ending gave some evidence that he was trying to work through it all by him actually talking about the flower sure he doesn’t bring up his sister or explain and answer some of buddy’s questions but he is trying and maybe he would’ve answered these in time. Then you got the whole “my daughter will not be weak” which throws ALL that shit out the window. Like I get him busting her ass on sword training with the whole “I’ll help you grow up fast” but that part makes zero sense even in painful she’s getting fucking traumatized by murder then in joyful. SIKE she was already cool with murder the whole fucking time to the point where she loves it. Hey man sure I’m fine with her being a badass and being pissed most children of addicts are extremely pissed and I relate to her on that. And the whole her sword training made her strong works but “my daughter will not be weak” is fucking ridiculous. Anyways praying to god undone and growing pains comes out as one of the 5 buddy fans out there in the world

[@MidnightBikerHostility]

It think we got indication from Queen's campfire scene and some ending in i don't know which game where we see that Brad's way of teaching was harsh and crude and lackluster in affection since his karate teaching days. And you have to thank Granpa Armstrong for that, who taught Brad his own hardcore way of disciple which then carried over to Brad since he didn't knew any better growing up and learning karate with Grandpa Armstrong. Then you couple that with the intense effects of joy plus this cold and brutal way of discipline that Brad learned AND the circunstances of the world: what you get is what you see at the start Joyful.

[@bautipe9948]

I really liked this ending, it's nice

[@denisprikop2639]

all this talk about buzzos dialogue and i never seem to find the explanation for the blue lady holding buddy, i just dont understand it

[@lunatic0verlord10]

34:32 So...does anyone know what's going on in that scene?

[@theseekersoflight2271]

I think it represents old buddy accepting her past, her childhood and all the little things that she didnt value. Accepting that Brad was not completely a monster, that their uncles are human and also did some mistakes, she accepted that even as flawded as her first years where, they had a certain love and care, and those, combined with the pain she suffered make herself who she is. So the big woman would be buddy embracing her childhood (reason why the little Buddy is wearing the clothes of the first game and no bandages). Its just a theory, but i think it might be true, if some of you want to share more i will read them happily, i want to see your perspective

[@sahilhossian8212]

Lore of Lisa the Joyful - The True Ending momentum 100

[@danksmeme698]

Imagine if Buddy ended her earth shattering roast on Buzzo by saying *_"...Also, you cut my nipple off, so like, fuck you."_*

[@MATAX5]

The giant woman at the end is most likely a female joy mutant, come to save Buddy from the horrors of having to repopulate the Earth by taking her place instead.

[@yams7355]

Interesting take. I have heard others claim that it's symbolic and not meant to be taken literally, but most of the supernatural/hallucination stuff seen in Lisa is due to Joy, and Buddy takes the vaccine, so I doubt it's a metaphor. Idk who the woman is myself, but I definitely think she's more likely a very real entity and not just a euphemism.

[@spoobert2676]

I thought Ricks character would be the least hateful of brad, if Brad tells rick and sticky to leave he does whilst sticky confronts him again. Am i crazy? I just finished painful and joyful and i thought sticky would be a better antagoniser?

[@qazuninja]

Brad literally beat Rick to a pulp with a spiked bat bruh

[@spoobert2676]

@@qazuninja still Ricky dicky doo daa Weeks confronts Brad and doesn't tussle or complain again, Sticky was the most hateful of rick every time

[@spoobert2676]

@@qazuninja *hateful of Brad

[@qazuninja]

@@spoobert2676 oh ok

[@blinkyy1088]

@@spoobert2676 Rick is jealous, Sticky is brave

[@infinityheart_tm9270]

23:32 Insert Doomsday Zone Music Here

[@papaq3810]

Who was the giant woman at the end?

[@dynamics7094]

It’s Brads and Lisa’s mom from Lisa the first. It’s not literal but symbolic of the abuse Marty left over the family finally lifting.

[@sushi6top]

​@@dynamics7094really? I thought this was symbolism for buddy birthing a new savior for olathe (a little girl) because the giant woman kinda looks like the virgin mary

[@yams7355]

​@@dynamics7094is that confirmed or hypothesis?

[@BlastingBloo]

Seriously who the fuck was the giant woman at the end? Was she a joy mutant? Was she the Virgin Mary? What the absolute hell?

[@sirrealism7300]

A regressed joy mutant, possibly sweetheart. Via use of the trumpet. We never saw sweetheart die.

[@Magical.trees.lordXD]

@@sirrealism7300Wait since when did the trumpet have the ability to regress the mutation I thought it only controlled joy mutants

[@sjored7785]

@@sirrealism7300 The hell are you talking about

[@theseekersoflight2271]

I think it represents old buddy accepting her past, her childhood and all the little things that she didnt value. Accepting that Brad was not completely a monster, that their uncles are human and also did some mistakes, she accepted that even as flawded as her first years where, they had a certain love and care, and those, combined with the pain she suffered make herself who she is. So the big woman would be buddy embracing her childhood (reason why the little Buddy is wearing the clothes of the first game and no bandages). Its just a theory, but i think it might be true, if some of you want to share more i will read them happily, i want to see your perspective

[@Magical.trees.lordXD]

@@theseekersoflight2271 Your right except one minor detail if you look closely if when you look at her eye the one that had the bandages you can see the healed well but left a scar meaning that the ending scene must take places a bit after the game ended since a injury like that would take a few weeks or months to heal

[@Booserz]

I can sleep in peace Knowing this ending is a thing

[@sussy3778]

Personally, I felt empty during this ending and not in a good way like the first game, it just had pretty much all issues of the original Joyful but added in a very forced and honestly out of character call out speech by Buddy towards Buzzo, a huge issue I had with Joyful was how rushed and unfocused Buddy's arc was, she goes from relatively normal to complete psycho in a spam of scenes and this ending only adds in the pacing issues. This call out doesn't feel deserved, and it's way too confusing and condescending to player, it took was the subtle complex situation Buzzo and Brad were in and changed it to a one-sided interpretation where they shit completely in one of them.

[@mrminecraftcubeable]

Yeah idk, it feels "fan fictiony" ? Same with the fireside chat, i like the idea of finding out extra stuff about the comapnions but some of the dialogue from brad spells out too much

[@flaco3462]

@@mrminecraftcubeable i actually felt that too with brad's dialogue like "this is official but it feels a bit too direct like a fan thing"

[@Mattroid99]

I agreed with pretty much everything about this. Not a fan of what they did in the Definitive Edition overall, besides a few things

[@areaxisthegurkha]

​@@flaco3462then what is not fan fiction according to you?

[@flaco3462]

@@areaxisthegurkha i said it was a bit like fanwriting not that it was dont get snippy about it

[@choom]

I'm still not very sure who the big cloaked person is in the after credits seen is supposed to be, is it a hallucination? or is it symbolic?

[@aReT4RTedduck]

Who tf is cradling buddy at 34:37?!

[@SenderBender63]

Tbh this ending feels very messy, obviously buzzing wasn’t a good person or anything and did get what he had coming to him but a lot of it just feels unnecessary, I think the shorter and more reflective ending in the original is a much better fit as it feels much more natural and less messy with buddy being too aggressive at that point, idk just something a bout the ending feels very off

[@drakothedragon3585]

Hey can someone help me understand the new ending? I don’t really know how to feel about and I don’t really know what it means. So if anyone could help that would be awesome please and thank you.

[@Vickysqueeze]

How do you get this? I beat the secret boss

[@jtlego1]

Head back to the Joy/Secret Lab in the Crossroad 1's village and walk *past* Lisa(?)'s coffin.

[@Blas0330]

It's a very convoluted process. Search in the wiki "Buddy's Hallucinations" and follow those steps. It worked for me

[@blehh_mae]

this is definetely better due to more characterization and lore, but im confused about whos that figure at the end coddling buddy, and also is lisa some sorta ghost that haunted buzzo and buddy or something, whats with the hallucinations, whats gonna happen to olathe after, im confused and tbh im prob more confused than i should be since i didnt watch any definitive edition content besides this

[@snowstorm9172]

How are people defending this? Buzzo is no saint, but why was this rant and callout from Buddy of all characters necessary?

[@BE-fw1lr]

I think it wraps it up nicely by returning to Lisa and her pain, it's not necessarily Buddy being better than him, more her finally "meeting" the one who started the whole thing, and realizing she was just a scared, abused girl just like Buddy. I felt like it was more LISA calling Buzzo out than Buddy.

[@snowstorm9172]

@@BE-fw1lr That's an awful way of writing things. I know the idea was to paint Lisa as a more supernatural force, but from an actual good writing perspective, Buddy really shouldn't have known anything about Lisa past the surface level. Not to mention that the callout itself just seems poorly done and more of a way for Austin to save his own ass from criticism for calling an abused little girl "the worst person" in the series. LISA is better when the titular character isn't made into some mythological deity that can be snatched away from the minds of people and vaguely communicate to others. If the idea was to point out the flaws in Buzzo and prevent him from having a "redemption", then there's certainly much better ways of making him look like an ass than to have the dude shout "I WANT MY BINKY" and calling out to mommy before mutating. Simply put, the ending is just fucking lame and I'm amazed at how many people are just casually eating it up.

[@BE-fw1lr]

@@snowstorm9172 /shrug, personally as someone who's been following the series since the original LISA (later renamed The First), I think it was a good way to bookend it. started with Lisa and it ends with Lisa. As for him crying out for "binky", it hardly seems any less pathetic than him crying out for Lisa, he was just denied that escape so he regressed even further back.

[@Mattroid99]

​@@snowstorm9172If there is something I learned in all this time on the Internet is that a LOT of people don't actually think at how things should work (I this case character dialogues) and eat things up as a result. I guess is because they take the emotions they feel in the moment over how well it has been delivered

[@seg162]

@@BE-fw1lr My issue is that it's heavy-handed, comes out of nowhere, and there's not even enough context in the ramble leading up to that line. I can see where you're getting your interpretation from-- it might be a little more than an inappropriately comical emasculation of an already emasculated man.

[@mikolajjankowski7043]

Soooo... What just happend?

[@thedandguy189]

Wait “RIP WIDDLY 2 DIDDLY?” Did W2D pass away?

[@seg162]

That's just a stylistic thing-- it's always been there. Jorgensen and W2D are the same person.

[@thedandguy189]

@@seg162 okay I appreciate that! Genuinely thought something happened

[@claus4670]

a stand in for w2d dies in the first game so its more of a gag than anything

[@grasstoucher12121]

i only love the ending cause half of it is like dialogue that's actually full of lore n shi

[@skeletonbuyingpealts7134]

Slay, queen

[@benry1239]

This ending is litterally insulting. An obvious character assasination against buzzo, who i dont even like. He starts crying for his mommy and asking for a pacifier after buddy (someone who has lived in a box for most her life up until now) begins roasting him for his past which she knows nothing about. A joke

[@theseekersoflight2271]

Thats a mutant thing, remember he turns into a mutant 3 seconds after saying that, i think he went even worsely into a mutant because he deep down knew buddy was right, it wasnt the fault of the abused girl, but his for acting so atrociusly around Brad who is another victim and Buddy who was literally a baby since he started ruining her life. He lives in the past, thats the reason he keeps focusing on Lisa, in a certain way, he is the same boy mentally, so regression doesnt seem like destroying his character to me at least (The first time it really did shock me though 🤣)

[@calvinanderson4245]

On one hand, mental regression is a thing with Joy Mutants, so it makes sense. On the other hand, there is DEFINITELY an element of "I AM SILLY!" in the choice of words.

[@kyubiiofrage]

This seems…unnecessarily cruel. Like yeah, Buzzo was a shit, but he went through plenty of trauma as a kid too. and yet this ending makes him out to be a bigger villain than the guy who literally caused the apocalypse and killed all the women.

[@dynamics7094]

He mutilates Children and helped cause said apocalypse all because some girl he liked died and he didn’t have the balls to actually go for Marty and decided to take it out on the entire world and another victim instead. His only real abuse was self inflicted and he didn’t have to listen to Lisa at all. He deserves this and more, trauma doesn’t justify what he did at all and unlike Brad, he doesn’t even have the excuse of good intentions.

[@kyubiiofrage]

@@dynamics7094 the child didn’t have the balls to go after the grown man , brilliant observation. They can call it the “true “ ending all they want, it’s a subpar writing and end compared to the original game.

[@dynamics7094]

@@kyubiiofrageNot going to argue painful has the better writing, but I thought Joyful was always flawed, just an obligation to kickstarter fans. Hell the new painful content is about equal to the original. Joyful was always in an awkward position because it focused on the wrong aspects (Explaining the lore). I think recontextualising it to be about healing was a smarter move and actually giving Buddy some humanity and realising that maybe blaming a young raped girl for all your problems isn’t the answer is a better ending. Each their own, I could see how you could hate it honestly.

[@sirrealism7300]

This is a take only someone who hasnt experienced real trauma can make.

[@jacksonw.2558]

I agree with you and everything you said in this thread. Buzzo was a bad guy but they fucked him over big time here especially considering his past

[@nikoleo2000]

"Maybe lisa would still be alive if she had never met you"yeah, no

[@Mattroid99]

I have no idea why people are defending this, is beyond stupid on so many levels and makes zero sense from a writing standpoint. Genuinely made me angry while reading it. What happened to you Dingaling...

[@donotbendy]

Can you explain which part made you angry?

[@Mattroid99]

@@donotbendy The whole dialogue between Buddy and Buzzo. Completely uncalled for, extremely pretentious, Buddy barely knows what she's talking about (She pretty much only knows her name, no idea with her relationship to Buzzo, her abuses, her suicide etc. She interacted with Buzzo three times in the series and she has NO idea of what happened between him and Lisa because it wasn't even in the final vision), and yet she crushes him, as if Buzzo was the shittiest person in the planet. Consider this: Yado got way less shit from Buddy because Buzzo killed him in order to protect her from the truth and let her accept Brad was her dad, and yet he got all the blame after an act of kindness. Is kind of ironic to think about. Is also quite hypocritical considering how Buddy murdered innocents and good people she never knew and yet she tells him he made the world worse as if she never tried improving it herself (But she is a character with a god complex, so we can let that slide.) It's a complete disservice to Buzzo's character too: yes, he is an incredibly awful person guided by rage and revenge, but is not like he didn't suffered immensely due to Lisa. Are we forgetting the psychological torture she did to him when he was a young teenager at best? Or that she forced him to mutilate animals and herself ("Do this if you love me")? Or that by committing suicide she also indirectly drove him into despair and rage? She literally used him to try escaping Marty, he was abused by her while she was abused by Marty. Yet the game in the only moment when he began accepting his inner demons, has the audacity to shit on him and throw in my face a dialogue where Buddy said to him "She might have been alive without you". Literally shut the fuck up. It all seems like Digaling trying to fix himself when he said "Lisa is the worst in the series", and this dialogue is the product of it. I guess murdrering a well written character was worth the price. Also the whole vision scene where she sees her uncles as young, Dusty and Bernard talking, Brad's house with Lisa in it etc was nonsensical from a logic standpoint. The dialogues themselves are fine, but is it an hallucination? A vision? How is she seeing character she never met as young talking about things she could never have a chance to know? How can she see Lisa? The only logical explanation is that what she sees is something designed by a developer out of convenience in order to tell the messages he wanted to pass. But when analyzed as a "How is buddy seeing those things" there is zero logical explaination, is there because of us and that's it.

[@donotbendy]

@@Mattroid99 Well I thought it was strange that Buzzo was blaming Lisa but also blaming himself. So I'm glad Buddy told him that. But now Buzzo got no really character resolution because the game deconstrusted it's own writing.

[@Mattroid99]

@@donotbendy I can see that. I personally think that that's Buzzo also starting to grasp on how toxic his relationship was and how that it affected his actions (Despite still being very much in love/obsessed with Lisa), but still Buddy should have no way to call him out for it: she barely knows him or Lisa. Personally I thought the original ending wrapped things quite decently overall, it was a bit weird at times but that's also because Joyful is a rushed game that tries to do too much in 3 hours, and all character lacked focus (Especially Buddy, and this hasn't improved).

[@claus4670]

@@Mattroid99 explains my thoughts best. why does yado --who for all we know, couldve manipulated buzzo himself. buzzo is still shocked in one of painful's endings when he discovers yado's plan. why does yado, who instigated everything, just get to go out after essentially already getting what he wanted, but apparently buzzo deserves much worse.

[@junkyardcrow1748]

Man, imagine if books did this. Just release a special edition years later where the protagonist recites a reddit post during the climax explaining away all the interesting ambuguities left in the story

[@miguelferreira5873]

binky buzzo

[@user-qw3lt2rg9l]

Imo this kinda kept the same flaws about the original ending, but was just more of it. Overall i still like it.

[@iamthebuginsideyou5911]

I'd rather play Lisa the Hitler or something man wtf is this

[@inciniumz4671]

The Pot calling the Kettle black over here...like, she didn't just slaughter a village of innocent people and lead her adoptive brother to die? What, you're strong for killing a bunch of people who refuse to fight at all? I swear, what happened to the story? What happened to Austin and his quality of writing?

[@mrminecraftcubeable]

Man poured everything into painful

[@heavygunner4039]

Killing the village of pacifists was optional, with the exception of the mutant and Mr. Beautiful

[@inciniumz4671]

@@heavygunner4039 Mr. Beautiful still refused to fight until the very end in self defense. Not to mention the true ending itself is optional.

[@inciniumz4671]

@@mrminecraftcubeable Painful, minus the Marth campfire scene, was fine, but Joyful is kinda...

[@seg162]

@@inciniumz4671 The _Marth_ campfire scene? Man, that dude's reach is *ridiculous.*

[@twenty_twenty_four]

Duuuude

[@BunchONanners]

I think the additions of the "afterlife" sequence was great; neatly wrapped up the uncles and Dustin. I think it also gave us a little more look into Buddy's humanity. The end segment with Brad and Buddy was also amazing, didn't really say anything we didn't know/could inference but it was still a really nice scene and good cap-off for the story of LISA. My only problems are really the Buzzo stuff and the actual ending itself. I felt the Buzzo stuff was unnecessary at best and an active hinder to Buzzo's character. Buzzo was a coward so stuck in his own cognitive dissonance he just had to petulantly take anger out on Brad and Buddy and all the other randoms of Olathe. The ending didn't really change any of that, it basically just said it aloud through Buddy. It felt like Jorgensen just wanted to... I don't know clear that up? But it just takes so much away from Buzzo's end. It takes the complex emotions of the scene and basically just channels them for the player. Idk, it felt patronizing. Same with the giant lady. Like, regardless of what in cannon it is (maybe a female Joy mutant. Maybe Buddy's mom who somehow become a Joy mutant. More than likely purely metaphorical), it carries the same thematic end as the original Joyful. Buddy had cut the circle of abuse; Brad and Rando's efforts, flawed as they were, weren't in vain. It was because they tried that Buddy could recognize her own humanity, and it was because of that that she could become someone better. The giant woman basically just shows that but without the kid and Joy Brad. I really do like some of the additions Jorgensen made, but it feels like half of it was just made to basically scream in our face the message of the story.

[@HappySisyphus0]

You can't demonize Buzzo this much while still justifying Brad, both have suffered abuse when they were children and had multiple opportunities to become better people yet they did not, of course Brad is a better person than Buzzo but I still don't think he is good enough to deserve being justfied like this, being hurt is not a reason to hurt other people, you are the only responsible person for your own actions, both of them are bad people, all of the important characters are for that matter.

[@Nate5oo2]

Wdym rip widdly 2 diddly?

[@someonecool8533]

buzzo can't catch a break

[@Slop_Dogg]

He really never deserved one to be fair

[@TheCr0oked1]

The old ending was good

[@blakethesnake6686]

Gardenias beats LISA: THE JOYFUL any day

[@doubleaabattery7562]

Coming back to this ending... yeah, still sucks. So glad i dont consider it canon.

[@Warlord4Hikage]

Dumb ending* Because it's not explained at all.

[@sahilhossain8204]

Lore of Lisa the Joyful - The True Ending momentum 100