Live Tech Talk - Chain vs Gear Drive Cams - Kevin Baxter - Pro Twin Performance

For this live tech talk we discuss the basics of flywheels, oil systems, along with comparing chain vs gear drive cams in your Harley Davidson.

[@thomasmarchese2808]

Y’all should appreciate this. I spent 2 years and 30,000$ to go to school for this level of instruction and what we call “theory”. This is how we’re taught in school to be techs. Pay attention and appreciate this. You sir are doing good things. Thank you.

[@KevinBaxter]

Thank you very much sir. I appreciate the kind words.

[@marklee9688]

Yea thanks I'm thinking of making the change .Found a deal on some after market gear driven cams

[@raycollington4310]

What a great technical lesson Kevin is giving us here. I still think this raises serious questions about the engine design and the old fashioned crankshaft arrangement.

[@goyeabuddy]

i'm one of those low budget guys. i replaced my cam tensioners on my 2002 Electra glide classic with the stock tenioners. they lasted 28k miles & i figured i probably wouldn't put another 10k miles on this bike. i didn't want to cut the pushrods , so i disassembled from top down. it came out good, all new gaskets, 'o' rings where needed & the stock oil pump was good. i did the whole job for less than $200. i enjoyed your video & you explained it very well...

[@KevinBaxter]

great job terry. thanks for posting!

[@Patrick_B687-3]

My second video, and probably my 20th on this subject, but this is the best one by a good measure. Now, if I can find someone with this level of knowledge to do mine.

[@chopperchopster]

yup this is why I LOVE my OLD panheads and my shovels too. You may be faster with your TC and M8 but I just keep putting along. put put put . LOL. Did I mention I have a few ironheads? OL SKOOL.

[@shaverlocal]

Absolutely the best commentary on cam solutions on the internet! I've been lucky enough to run gear drive cams for the last 12k miles or so with no abnormal noises. Thanks for your excellent explanation of various options Kevin!

[@KevinBaxter]

Thank you for the kind words and for following! Please check out my others on various topics.

[@lovingmylifeasIage6741]

I put S&S gear drive in my 2001 Deuce. When the motor was opened the chain tensioner were fine at 15000 mi. I loved the S&S gear drive. I put over 50k miles on it before trading it in. It took me out west twice from Kentucky. I remember the little test display by S&S sent to builders. It showed the difference in the drag on the motor. The gear drives, they were selling, turned a lot easier the cam chain tensioner system.

[@barthjackk]

Kevin, that was fantastic. I have never seen your channel or any of your videos but very glad that this one popped up on my page. I had cams and a gear drive installed on my ’04 TC at around 20k miles. I still smile when I’m riding and think about those cam tensioners being gone….peace of mind. I’m a retired professor and I’d like to commend you on a job well done. A lot of videos are auditory with very poor visuals if even present. The level of visual that you add to your clear, concise auditory makes for an excellent, informative video…you’re a born teacher. I have subscribed to your channel and plan to watch more of your videos. Thanks

[@KevinBaxter]

Very kind words Sir....thank you! If I may ask, what was your chosen career subject as a professor?

[@barthjackk]

I taught some math and some business but mostly Information Technology. In the '90s, as the Director of Networking, I developed a networking program that encompassed UNIX, Novell, Microsoft, Linux and several other technologies. That industry was/is very certification driven so as part of the program we helped students obtain those certification to make them more marketable as graduates. Ended up as an odd profession for me because growing up I hated school, hahaha. I didn't end up finishing my college education until my early 30's but prior to that I built custom cars for around 10 years. Working on engines was by far my favorite part. I specialized in Ford 427 Side Oilers and other Ford FE's. Just finished watching the Timken conversion, excellent!

[@scottmckeen3908]

Looking strongly at a 2001 Night Train with about 16k miles on it. Was very concerned about this issue, but this video definitely helped me understand it much better. Awesome detail and thoughtfully laid out. Happy to subscribe to your channel and very much appreciate you sharing your obviously deep knowledge!

[@davidfields-gm4oj]

sounds good to me i own a 2000 fatboy with 1500 actual miles and am a retired mold maker machinist with full roller cabinet of starett tools. so of course all the instructions must be followed and measurements taken which i would have not known without viewing the video. now i know what to check and when to check it to prevent my engine parts from scattering out on the road. thankyou and may the force be with you. will definately inspect the tensionizers when needed.

[@txc500]

Extremely helpful video lesson, thank you. I have visited 2 dealers with my 16000 mile 2003 Road King. Neither could give me any information I could use to make a decision on which solution would be best for me. I enjoy learning about the workings of my engine.

[@mrvoyagerm]

As a dedicated Harley Touring bike owner, listening to this and many other tech problem solvers (all with the best intentions) makes me want to trade my baby in on a Honda.

[@brandonjones152]

No American feeling with Honda ..ok?..

[@rfrmobile4314]

Thank you for this video! This reinforces why I don't ride or own Harley's. I've owned and still own imports and have had no problems in thousands of miles. Too much mechanical drama with Harley.

[@KevinBaxter]

Thanks for watching and following

[@66thru68veteran]

@ 29:32 Exactly what i was thinking , why not polish the chain !! Great work Kevin.

[@turbomustang84]

When I bought my 05 Dyna I knew that for piece of mind I would have to address the tensioner issue . After researching the hydraulic vs gear drive solutions I looked at the Screaming eagle billet cam plate setup and it seemed to me to be the best solution for me because I'm not that interested in ultimate horsepower what I needed was longevity. So not having to deal with problems with backlash with a gear drive was not something I wanted to deal with . I ran a gear drive in a small block Chevy and it was noisy and I felt the roller chain would be fine with what I wanted to achieve which was reliability and long engine life so I'm happy with my decision . If my goals were more performance oriented then gears would have been the way I would have gone . After watching this video and finding out about the cheaper option of polishing the chain I'm still convinced I did the right thing for me . Great video 👍

[@KevinBaxter]

Properly set up, gear drive can be very quiet but as you said, it's not absolutely necessary and not a requirement for every build or budget. Thanks for watching.

[@mlone7]

When I was watching Kevins video I was thinking about that small block chevy set up with the gears on each side of the driven and drive gears. I think a setup like that on a smaller scale, to fit a harley, might solve the problem of runout. As far as noise......its a Harley....they are loud!

[@frankmarkovcijr5459]

Harley twin cam should have come straight from the factory with gear drives and not chain drive chain drive are a messy way to run an engine and when they go break there goes your engine all my got bikes died from cam chain disease my gear Drive Sportster has 350 thousand miles on her bike still runs great

[@eb1941]

Great background information. Well done! I have been looking into options as I own two TC bikes. On inspection, my 2003 RK at 20K miles still looks good, very little wear. My 2005 Deluxe only has 9K miles, so I have not inspected. Nice to have options for the fix, but my understanding is the hydraulic tensioners will wear at 50K miles, so with that mod you may still be looking at problems down the road. Although I have enjoyed both bikes, I believe this is something HD should have fixed for their customers. I am looking at buying my next bike in soon and I will not even consider HD. Great way for a company to lose repeat business.

[@KevinBaxter]

Thank you very much

[@zachofalltrades6116]

Starcade 85 talk radio but which model

[@jsmctch]

Good job. I would only note that true way to get 100% accurate valve timing would be a cam and lifter directly under the push rod cup end of the rocker arm. Twin cam was an improvement over the Evo's pushrod angle but since the penny pinchers at HD added 4 more valves and an oil cooler to the M8 lets forget all the marketing about the more accurate valve timing that second cam provided and they went back to one cam. I also like the earlier design of the cam plate that accommodated bearings. You dont know how many guys that wanted gear drives cams and I had to pop their bubble about their pinion shat run out. Convincing them of all the work that had to be done to true the crank was a whole ordeal

[@MichaelHeinrich1]

Watching your videos from over here in Germany. Your amount of knowledge is amazing. Thank you for the information. 😁

[@KevinBaxter]

Thank you sir! Appreciate your support.

[@FreeSwimmer]

Absolutely, the best description and information ever !

[@KevinBaxter]

Glad you think so! Thank you sir.

[@FreeSwimmer]

@@KevinBaxter My local Cycle Shop is a brother and we are checking crank runout Monday. I get to work with him and learn. If the runout is .003 or less were ordering a complete S&S geardrive, camchest upgrade. I have a 2003 FXDWG with 11k on clock. I was hearing so much about the 510 cams, but I dont twist it often. I like the low go torque, so thinking the 509 cams.. What would you suggest ? Thanks !!

[@FreeSwimmer]

I did the runout today. It was, at or just above, .0025 .. Everything was looking very clean and no scoring on cam lobes.

[@fatboyfatboy-ou5jr]

Thanks Kevin. That video was very well explained and super informative. I own a 2008 twin cam and just bought a 2019 114 m8. But looking as a former mechanic to get into bikes on the side for some extra cash and to help those with older bike's that dealers are shying away from cause bike's to old thank's again well explained

[@KevinBaxter]

Thank you sir!

[@mattcrook4978]

You've saved me a lot of money and bad decisions. Bought my first harley 2 days ago and needed to get some info

[@briancooper314]

What a great video, got a much better understanding of whats going on in my motor now. Keep up the great work!

[@KevinBaxter]

Thank you!

[@briancooper314]

@@KevinBaxter Looking at doing s&s .583 cams in my 2014 Wide Glide. Was already planning on chain drive because of the issues you talked about. But now I know to check run out regardless. Do you suggest putting a new compensator in while doing cams? Looking at Baker compensator.

[@KevinBaxter]

If its clunky or worn, absolutely. Otherwise, run what you have for a while. Itll need one at some point.

[@martinwall7297]

this video, teaching about cam plate and cam-drive options is invaluable. years later I still refer back to it. if I lived in GA. I would drop my 01Electra glide off to you for a cam chest update. tks so much for sharing, keep em coming, and happy holidays.

[@NativeSD53]

I try to read all the comments and your replies to see if my questions has already been answered (and there are always diamonds hidden in there).... But So Many comments on this one!!!! That said; I'm in San Diego (year round riding) and have known about the Run Out issues for a while. Question - How do I find a mechanic/motorcycle shop that I can trust to know the right way to check crank run out? Are there questions I can ask them that will reveal their knowledge base or commitment to quality? I would really like to know the status of my engine for future plans and to know what the future holds longevity wise.

[@KevinBaxter]

I would hope that if you called any shop and tell them you want gear drive installed, they would tell you without you having to ask, that they need to check run out first, and give you other options. If they don't, ask what all they do when they install it.

[@Rezaroth]

Now I'm an expert on explaining this thank you so much Kevin. I think I might ship my bike to you from my country if I needed the change.. :)

[@DSales343]

I have been thinking since the first cam tensioner replacement, I want a gear driven set up. Awesome explanation on pros and cons. BTW I have a 99 twin cam with 100K miles and no real issues

[@isreallong3824]

Very informative! Very well presented! Very easy to understand! Thank you so much Kevin for sharing your knowledge.

[@KevinBaxter]

Glad you enjoyed it! Youre welcome. Thanks for the kind words and for following.

[@TheTc909]

Im glad for your straightforwardness, your videos. Whats been bother me is my "sloppy cam sprocket" on the crank pinion. Even whem measuring run out since you can see visibly that end is worn from the sprocket. Rn im in a dilema as what to do, i have two motors trying to make one solid one. The issue ive mentioned, im yet to decide what to do. Also i am definitely on a budget so this is a very slow build.

[@KevinBaxter]

not really a cheap way to fix that. if the pinion is worn and a new sprocket doesnt cure it....it's time for a crank. not aware of anyone that makes a "tighter" fitting one....depends on how bad it is.

[@ppuntrotzooizooi7692]

Great explaination! I always learn a lot of your video’s. Thankyou! You sure have great knowledge of it all. Keep on with this good stuff. 👍👍

[@jtapke]

Nicely done. The visual aids helps explain why the run-out is crucial

[@theodavies8754]

I view my '99 TC engine and transmission as an oil distribution assembly. Some of the oil is for internal components, some is to stop the baking trays under it from going rusty.

[@hddynaroy1111]

Kevin, first of all thanks. 2018 FLHXS 107 with 16k miles air cleaner, slip ons no tune. I read and watch as much as I can about Harley’s. I’ve been on them since 1978. There is so much cool stuff available for the motors and prolly ten times more opinions about what works and what doesn’t. I like power, but, at 61 on a $28k motorcycle I am more interested in longevity and dependability. Some probably saying “shoulda bought a Honda”, not gonna happen. I digress so on to my questions. I live on Maui and ride 15k miles per year and like to go to the mainland in July for a 10k mile ride. My engine is typically never run at less than 2500 and is more likely to be 3000 plus or minus. Is it critical to upgrade the pump, chains to gears etc to help the bike run longer? My motor makes tons of noise, to me, but nobody else seems to think twice. I call it a “clinking, clanking, clattering collection of Calligenous junk” to borrow from OZ. I respect your opinion and wonder what would you do if you weren’t trying to squeeze every ounce of energy out of the motor? Thanks.

[@KevinBaxter]

I can't say that I would suggest you rush out and make these mods. If you aren't having a problem, it's most likely not something you must have. That being said, noone has a crystal ball. There are known issues with those components. I would say, typically, around that 30-40,000 mile mark is when aluminium parts like cam plates and oil pumps start to show signs of wear and decrease in performance. Maybe when you hit that mark, pull the cam cover and check the plate, pump, cams, etc. If they show those signs, upgrade to billet and be done with it.

[@timmaxim2120]

If Harley has a potential problem with the flywheels slipping or (scissoring) why didn't they ever do something about it? Like maybe a splined or hex shaped pin?

[@TheCuttz1984]

I've learnt alot from you mate. Your content is epic. Much love from Australia

[@mikeharrison7925]

I’m an old guy and have not owned a Harley for at least 25 years. In my early days I had connections in Mexico and would import old Harley's' from there. It was a fun side business for me, importing Knuckle heads, Pan heads, Shovel heads, even a couple of old Indians. Yeah, some of it was crap and some of it was really nice. I did a lot of wrenching in those days, but I gave it all up and settled into real career and raising a family. I retired a few years back and I’ve been debating with myself whether I should get another bike. My best friend recently found an old dusty shovel head and he’s about to buy it. That did it for me...Now I’ve got the hots for another bike. I have spent the past month on the internet looking at late model Harley's' with low mileage. I’ve been away for so long, it’s all new technology, twin cam engines, 5 and 6 speed transmissions, monster motors, cruise control, all of it is totally amazing to me...I'm like a kid in a candy store! I’ve picked out maybe 20 or 30 bikes that fit my budget and had the looks I liked. I purposely avoided the older bikes because I don't want to spend my time wrenching, I want to ride. I finally settled on a 2005 Fat Boy CVO. The price is where I can afford it and it has only 12,000 miles on it. I have the cash in hand, ready to close the deal and NOW I SEE THIS VIDEO! GREAT VIDEO, my compliments to Kevin Baxter of Pro Twin Performance… But what a GREAT BIG RED FLAG on buying a late model Harley...NOT A CHANCE!!!

[@kurtking5913]

Go get that shovel before your bud get is. I got 77shovel in aftermarket frame and a wide springer. Those big inch motors ain't shit my motor is pretty worked to run and be able to take a beating and stay together and I just cleaned up some clown on a 103" bagger darn fool pulls next to me at a light and starts revving. Well the light went green and the Andrews F grind was gone hit rev limiter 1st-3rd never seen him again

[@mikeharrison7925]

@@kurtking5913 Hi Kurt This is Mike, I recently picked up a beautifully customized 1996 Heritage. The motor has been reworked and it flys! I mean fast beyond belief! I don’t know anything about what has been done to the motor, but performance wise, it’s amazing... But it has a problem, it vibrates horribly above 3500 rpm. I have looked into possible causes and have come up with a list of about 20 items that might be corrected without taking the motor apart. I have talked to one of the better known aftermarket HD mechanics in the San Diego area and he thinks that I should first check all the items on my list and then if nothing fixes the problem, he suggests that it is the inherent weakness in the Harley Flywheels. According to him they are notorious for getting out of “true” if they are over-revved. And if that is the problem, then the best fix is to do a teardown and replace the wheels with a set of S&S wheels. Beautiful bike, great disappointment so far... Oh well, it’s only money...

[@steveperry1344]

thnx for the info but it's too bad hd didn't get it right in the first place. i have an 02 heritage and this has been on my mind.

[@jezzr4431]

In the perfect world.. HD should do a recall.. A little more investing in the engine, and a little less investing in the clothing and head scarves...

[@steveperry1344]

@@jezzr4431 yes, we were down on cape cod in hyannnis ma., went into what i thought was a harley dealer on main st and it turned out to be a clothing store. the kid behind the counter didn't know much about bikes.

[@dougpfaltzgraff]

That was an awesome explanation of the flywheel and cam

[@KevinBaxter]

Thank you sir. Be sure to subscribe as well.

[@clintonnorfor3236]

Super fantastic video Kevin!. Thank you so much for sharing all your knowledge. you cover so many angles for different budgets its crazy, wealth of knowledge right here in this video, about to do a cam upgrade and was looking for more info about run-out and couldn't be more happier to find this. i am now subbed. Riding an M8 2019 Streetglide with 15,000miles on it and say i have 0.0029 run out, i have the budget and i would like to go gear drive, you mentioned it would last, BUT wouldn't wear & tear increase my run out over the next few years and cause problems to my gear set-up? TIA

[@KevinBaxter]

as long as the crank doesnt shift, it should stay where it is now. Backlash setup will be critical. I did a part 2 to this video explaining that. When you decide to pull the trigger, please consider us when you decide to buy the parts. Glad to hear the runout is in spec and thank you for the kind words.

[@clintonnorfor3236]

@@KevinBaxter will do have a great weekend!

[@KevinBaxter]

you too sir. thank you.

[@frankmarkovcijr5459]

The chain that he is showing from the first-year twin cams is a hypho chain of the same type used to connect crankshaft with transmission in Japanese motorcycles also used in a lot of Automotive applications very reliable except in Harley's case Harley went to chain drive so they could use substandard parts and crank out 30,000 more bikes a year winter gear drive and pushrods like an EVO your engine parts have to be much more strict engine parts that are too tall or Too Short the chain tensioner takes up the slack cheap and nasty way of running a valve train and when the chain goes snap the Piston comes and kisses the valve that will ruin your Jay for sure

[@deltabluesdavidraye]

So if the pressed crank becomes out of true then it trashs the oil pump.

[@ferrett1962]

Probably a silly idea but runout would only effect the gear running off the crank or the outside of the plate, but why wouldn't it be possible to still run gears between the cams? This would at least eliminate the need to pull the plate to replace the inner guide leaving it maintenance free and include the outer guide in set services intervals. The outer one would be easy to change or check with minimal cost ( cam chest gasket & new guide). I would be happy with to install something like this when I get around to changing cams.

[@Greenjeans2020]

FYI: As past Manufacturing Engineer and have experience with all types of manufacturing techniques, the silent chain you make reference to does not have "Cast" links. They are made by fine blanking.

[@alissarobertson8840]

I fixed my twin cams I sold both of them and bought a 98 FLSTF Evo.

[@adriankiraly5172]

Hi Kevin, I'm a Victory guy, but love Harleys. The reason I ended up with a 106 was this, however what would be the ultimate HD package for max reliability, torque and say 110 hp for twin cam? (Eg. Complete S&S gear drive crate engine with a DD7?) There are so many options...with Vic. it was simple: drop in cams, intake, tune, pipes and roll...HD is a lot more in depth. You know your stuff! Cheers.

[@KevinBaxter]

I own a Victory as well. Good bikes. Thanks for the kind words and for following.

[@frankmarkovcijr5459]

All the years that Polaris Adventure you never heard one thing about their Camp change ever having a problem at all you didn't hear them having any problems really at all and now their DNA is one of the reasons why Indians are such good bikes besides looking so pretty

[@travj4450]

Thank you for sharing knowledge.

[@dennism103]

Wow ur very knowledgeable about hd's, impressive commentary...

[@KevinBaxter]

Thanks a ton

[@James-fk2sb]

What is mileage usually seen to much run out ? I have a 2010 fatboy lo 96ci 6,000 miles

[@alexallchurch4350]

Thank you for all your time and efforts that you have and continue to upload great videos.Kevin if things have improved over there with logistic issues would you be prepared to ship parts to Australia ?, Alex

[@LonesomeNomad137]

Watching it again.

[@Frostytravels]

Great video man. Very well done and complete.

[@KevinBaxter]

Much appreciated!

[@jordanhowell3870]

Thanxx for the video man awesome video man didn't know about run out. And if I should run gear drive or not.

[@michaelmoran4730]

I so wish I could discuss my cam chest issues with you! I had throat cancer and can't speak anymore. Of course being disabled puts me in the "can't afford an expert to do it for me category " trying to get it done with you tube. I am seeing some of what you are talking about after having someone upgrade me to Andrews gear drive. Everything was great until the ticking that quickly progressed louder. When I disassembled the cam chest I found the exaust lifter on the front cylinder, the roller appeared to be pushed up into the lifter and the bottom edge of the body of the lifter was actually split and rubbing the cam lobe.

[@proskuchev]

Thanks for this video. It is very helpful for me.

[@KevinBaxter]

Glad it was helpful!

[@Mowk86]

Mr. Kevin, this was a fantastic and informative video. I watched it thoroughly, and any parts I didn't understand, I watched again to fully grasp the concepts you're teaching. I am curious, do you have a potential timeline of when you're going to talk about crankshafts? Thanks so much for the video!

[@KevinBaxter]

thanks for the kind words and for following. We could do a talk about cranks in the coming weeks.

[@cornbread8246]

What should be the maximum runout on the sprocket side of the crank in consideration of the purchase of a new crank ?

[@quidestnunc9238]

Suggestion: consider using a clip-on Microphone (or Lavaliere type) with transmitter (just like the Talking Heads television sports, late night talk, and news shows). That is what I prefer in order to avoid the acoustics issue in this vid.

[@KevinBaxter]

Thanks! That video was done a while back and done with the webcam built into my laptop. If you check out our newer videos, you'll see we made substantial improvements in audio and video. Appreciate the advice.

[@peterwall4739]

Great explanation

[@jang6969]

Thanks Kevin! Great video. 🇨🇦

[@pronghornobsession]

Absolutely love your videos

[@KevinBaxter]

Thank you very much. Glad you enjoy. Thanks for watching

[@martincvitkovich724]

My 2003 Road King has been on its 2nd set of tensioners since 49,000 miles. It has 89,000 on it now and the tensioners have little wear. Would you say my chains have been well polished by now?

[@KevinBaxter]

Yes, but they also may be stretched and or have loose links. Be sure to check that before reusing.

[@Churchychurch]

Thank you so much for this video. I have rode the hell out of my 2016 RG. 79,000mi should I go gear or chain??

[@KevinBaxter]

Yes you have. Damn. Impressive. Check the crank. If it's in spec, and in your budget, gear is always better.

[@75hdfxe]

Great presentation. What is the best long term solution for the flywheels coming out of true? There are different fixes presented on forums, aftermarket assemblies, welding, etc.

[@KevinBaxter]

This video as well as part two of it, will answer all your questions. kzbin.info/www/bejne/j6HFYpSpf5uBabc

[@paulalbares643]

Excellent presentation of the problems and the multiple solutions available considering budget constraints. Now a question regarding model years. I am in the market for a Heritage Softail and because the budget will only allow an older model, what model years based on experience should I avoid knowing that I will have to do one of the three options you spoke about to correct the inherent flawed design and manufacture defect?

[@KevinBaxter]

Great question. 02 was a great year. 06 was also a great year. I'd suggest pre 2007 because you can get great deals. No crank issues. 5spd was good. Avoid magneti morelli EFI.

[@paulalbares643]

@@KevinBaxter Thank you Kevin, that will substantially help to narrow the field. Considering I am 72 and have been riding for many years, I think if I can get something that will not require major rebuild for 50,000 miles I will consider it a lifetime warranty. lol

[@Nostrildomus]

Thanks for posting this .

[@KevinBaxter]

Thanks for following. Have many other videos similar to this.

[@georgemitchell9315]

Thanks so much for this info Kevin!!

[@BillyBlaze7]

I believe on my next bike I am just gonna buy some cases and built my own motor with my own components

[@goldysmith6953]

Carolyn I love your show but I have a little problem that I don't understand you're talking about cam chains I have a 2014 Limited 103 what do I need to improve that whole deal would I be better off going with Gear Drive or just replacing stock parts

[@bwebb337]

Incredible video! Thank you

[@dennislett7896]

Great video very informative. One question I was told by a Harley tech that because my 01 Electra glide was fuel injected I could not use the gear drive is that true? I am about to replace my tensioners but if I can go to gear drive I would prefer that. Thank you ..

[@tbadon1]

I wish this guy was in TX

[@ralfhedstrom]

Great video! I am just flabbergast over how many "well-known problems" and dubious constructions that is built in to a Harley engine - and as such the buyer is a victim of the human factor of the construction and/or assembly of the engine. Were just a simple thing as a sharp cam chain can end up in a disaster and a badly balanced crank/flywheel ends up in an engine with a death sentence way before its usual length of life - and a disaster. I wouldn't go so far to say that it is good luck if You get a problem free engine between 1996-2006, but if I had a dollar for everyone that complains over huge vibrations and thinks its the engine mounts that is the problems (Oh no, that too? :) ), I would be a millionaire today.

[@KevinBaxter]

Thank you for your input...you aren't alone in your views.

[@jeffhawkins711]

Hey bro,I bought a 06fatboy last summer ,had 18k on it. Owner had passed away and his son knew nothing about it. Seemed well cared for no leaks don't even sweat. Son gave me a case of Syn3 and a battery tender. Just wondering which cam chest and oil pump , hydraulic chain tensioners. He told me to get the screamin eagle stuff because it's cheaper than S&S or Feuling.

[@88rushrocks]

I have a 2003 88 twin cam and I’m telling you I now have the S&S gears and of course S&S push rods etc that old sht had to go now my performance is 100% rocket lol and best off all trouble free it was worth the $2400 for the stuff however I’m not sure how much a shop would charge to do the work but if you have minimum mechanical skills you can do the installations yourself and of course I have S&S on speed dial lol

[@Mrdrivereight]

2400 for just parts? The HD dealership I worked for sells s&s gear drive kits with new cams for less than a 1000 and s&s adjustable pushrods for 120. Hopefully you got the s&s gear drive, cam kit with the high flow oil pump those run around 1700. You might want to look at the shop you bought them from they might have ripped you off for 500... Maybe more!

[@kurtking5913]

@@Mrdrivereight I spent close to that on my shovelhead, but that was my fault. I dont like to lose and that mindset and solid lifters can be a bad combo Lol. I did hold on for the win .Valves through piston = a good bit of $. A good bit of that money went to welding broken and machining cases now that I think about it it was more than 2400 for everything

[@porkchopspapi5757]

Unless you already answered this question, why add a chain to the equation when the 2 sprockets could be gears without needing a stretchy, heavy chain.

[@KevinBaxter]

They come stock with chains. The upgrade is to go gear drive.

[@porkchopspapi5757]

@@KevinBaxter Why the extra expense, weight & problems of a chain when they could have gone gear drive?

[@KevinBaxter]

Because often the factory cranks are not straight enough to accommodate gear drive and the cost associated

[@porkchopspapi5757]

@@KevinBaxter Ah thank you

[@kellysharpton4524]

Excuse my ignorance, but why do the chain need to have tensioner in the first place? Why couldn't they just run the chain like on a old Chevrolet small block? I don't recall those chain having a tensioner and shoes on the cam an crank.

[@KevinBaxter]

GREAT QUESTION Kelly. chain tensioners reduce chain slack and transmit drive torque uniformly. They also reduce noise and vibration; decrease sprocket and chain wear; and increase the life of drive components. HD cranks have quite a bit of run out...it wouldn't be possible to run a chain as tight as run on SBC. Also, consider the sprockets on a SBC are mounted pretty much, right at the bearing so no shaft flex is really possible. On an HD, the chain is mounted several inches from the crank bearing and is only supported by the cam plate. A tight chain could cause the pinion shaft to flex.

[@donwaltman4276]

Great video Kevin, do you add the pinion shaft runout to the sprocket shaft runout to get total indicated runout,(TIR)?

[@fireboyisme]

Do you have a video showing how to check the runout on the crank?

[@KevinBaxter]

I dont think so but I could.

[@joeramirez3690]

So, it sounds like both types you will have problems with. So before buying a bike you would ask the question which one will go before you will start having this problem, a year two?

[@KevinBaxter]

as long as its set up right, gear is the way to go. 20-30000 miles, spring tensioners should be checked or changed.

[@alanstrange7077]

Ok where on the pinion shaft do you measure for run out?

[@wallywire]

Does direct drive turn cam backwards?

[@bullast2046]

How much runout on the pinion & sprocket shaft is acceptable from the factory? Are they not true form HD? My bike has 10k mi on it so is it possible my bike wouldn’t allow gear drive?

[@lindacruz2367]

I met a man with a 2008 Roadking.108,357 miles. Never put a wrench on it. How's that ?💸

[@KevinBaxter]

There are many I've serviced and maintained over the years that are still rolling at 100,000 plus miles. But...they had a wrench put to them. They have to. They were meticulously maintained and serviced 100 percent proper. I'm sure he had his fork oils done, brakes flushed, bushings changed, wheel bearings replaced, etc. Many fail due to lack of maintenance or improper maintenance. He may have also had wear items or electronic items replaced like voltage regulator, stator, etc....may not.

[@javierirusta9072]

I have a 0.0025 measure in the crankshaft, 0.06 in mm, its ok for instaling a hidraulic tensioners cam plate? What is your opinion?

[@michaelpoplett2745]

Excellent.

[@KevinBaxter]

Thank you! Cheers!

[@BN-pd9tf]

Great vid!👍. Lots of good info. What are your thoughts on the M8s? I'm assuming that HD has not changed their quality on flywheels for the M8s. If excessive TIR is an issue, what aftermarket flywheels do you recommend? Finally, any trusted shops near the Bay Area you might recommend for flywheel work and stage 2 upgrades. We already have S&S Intake and MK45 slip-ons, but looking at upgrading to the S&S 465 cam, plate, & oil pump kit, so maybe go gear drive at the same time. Your thoughts. Thanks in advance!

[@KevinBaxter]

Thanks. Many of the Twin Cam issues/characteristics carried on to the M8. The M8 is capable of a bit more power...so extra caution is a good idea when it comes to flywheels. Check my latest video...I mention who I use for some of my custom flywheel sets if I dont do them in house. Thanks for watching.

[@BN-pd9tf]

@@KevinBaxter Ok, thanks Kevin!

[@ccdrouin]

Don't understand how you can have .003" runout on pinion gear and keep backlash less than .001. Could you give your option on best maker for replacement cam chain tensioner shoe, and inner cam bearings. Thanks curt

[@KevinBaxter]

The run out is often reduced when the cam plate is installed...essentially forcing it straight. Not ideal by any means...which is why we wont install above .003 TIR. If it's slightly less, considering it's TIR, that'd basically give you under .0015 on each side from center. From there, the under/over size pinion gear will allow you to squeeze in at a .0005 to .001 backlash which is ideal. I like the tensioners from Zippers. Great product.

[@lawerncemiller6557]

Question can you retain chain drive from crankshaft to cam an then go with gear drive between the two cams ? That would allow for crank run-out and give better cam timing between the two cylinders + got rid of the inter cam chain tensioner I think it would be a good option just don't know if it's possible to do ?

[@davidsimmons7556]

Very well done

[@tnpharmd]

Is the runout issue a bigger problem with certain models? I have a 2013 twin cam 103 and a local shop recommended the S&S gear drive 550 series cam chest kit but didn’t mention checking the runout tolerance.

[@DavidBergen-wz6ey]

One piece forged crank &plain rod bearing kit needed for all .

[@shaneverrall2807]

Kevin, whats your thoughts on the Andrews = +/ - 4 degrees CAM sprocket? have you used these for success

[@KevinBaxter]

i have. totally depends on the rest of the build. have done that forever on V8s, etc...not uncommon at all. Often, that's the best solution when you cant find a custom cam.

[@louismartin4446]

well that’s why they are called Hardley Ablesons

[@xlrider1565]

Hi Kevin, I purchased my 2005 Dyna Wide Glide last Oct. 2019. Am doing some work to it so I'm not riding it. As I've stated previously, the bike is very low mileage for the year. My concern is, the drivebelt. I know it wasn't replaced ever. It is 15 years old, should I be concerned with it failing, when I do start riding it?

[@KevinBaxter]

I wouldnt be too concerned. Its not pure rubber and is highly reinforced. if it starts making noise, thats a good way to know its a bit stiff.

[@xlrider1565]

Thank you kindly Kevin for your expertise, Aloha!

[@KevinBaxter]

Aloha!

[@joeramirez3690]

Hey, I have a 2008 cross bone bike. I suppose this is what I have on my bike. Would this bike be having this problem? And would this bike having only 25 thousand miles on it, would it be possible that this bike is at the point of developing this problem?

[@KevinBaxter]

you would have hydro tensioners....not as much of a concern as the spring loaded from 06 and back.

[@mobilemechanix1]

Thanks!

[@chig9357]

great info thanks

[@TheSkylark16]

It might sounds stupid but can I get a chain drive for cam-pinion gear and gear drive for the camshaft? That way I don't have to worry about secondary tensioner

[@KevinBaxter]

good idea but...keep in mind the rotation direction of the cam with gear vs chain. a cam would have to be made specifically for this...and the demand just doesnt justify it.

[@TheSkylark16]

@@KevinBaxter you're right, with gear drive on the other side, camshaft would rotate with the opposite directions, I guess it would be a bad idea then, thanks for the reply.

[@morrisdennis]

Kevin! I use 20w50 aviation oil, ur opinion it the m8 seems to luv it...

[@bullast2046]

Why couldn’t the cam chain tensioners be spring loaded wheels (made of strong material) like on a cars serpentine system? This “shoe” BS is dumb.. and would it be ok to run gear drive on the cams but not the pinion?

[@jaylockwood8701]

my bike has 26000 miles its a 2003 88ci should i be checking the chain tensioners now

[@KevinBaxter]

absolutely yes. it's about that time.

[@jaylockwood8701]

@@KevinBaxter appreciate response thanx, ur videos are awesome

[@randyhouse9172]

I just got a 2020 street guild with a 114 how long should I wait or should I wait to install the s and s can plate and pump

[@Ride_on54]

It sounds like if you’re going to upgrade your cam chest your better off keeping a chain drive configuration to play it safe with this notorious Harley crankshaft run out situation even on the later models interesting 🤔