Loggers Tried to Buy My Forest

If you've ever thought about selling your trees, you'll want to hear this.
As a woodlot owner, sawmill operator and manager of my own forest, profit is something I consider often as the forest is a profitable resource. Consideration all options available to me is something I do regularly to make sure I can make money while maintaining the longevity of the forest. Some days however, things don't always go as expected.
#forestry #logging #sawmillbusiness #tree #sawmill

[@sawingwithsandy]

I forgot to mention that I typically prefer cutting down red pines in the colder months as in the warmer months the red pines will start to get boring insects into them in about 3 to 4 weeks after they've been cut down even if they're piled off the ground. Only remedy is to remove the bark or keep them wet.

[@wingwhacker7500]

Sandy, two things. As you said, thinning improves the health of the remaining trees. This helps the tree compete against harmful forest insects. It also allows the tree to put wood on the tree at a greater rate. Yes, they grow larger faster. Last and when considering hiring a logger, learn how they will handle the slash. The price you receive is very dependent on that.

[@Mindokwin]

I had my forest thinned in two sales where I made $5000 each. Not much I thought. But I also got road improvements done by the logger and his equipment. Now ten years later my remaining trees have grown rapidly, and since we left the good quality trees, I now have a much more valuable and attractive forest. I am looking at a much more lucrative timber sale in a few years.

[@tjjewell4115]

Sandy, you really have done your homework on this process, glad you have a good head on your shoulders, great Video.

[@sawingwithsandy]

Thanks TJ! I appreciate your support

[@mcsawmill]

Sandy, I'm old, I've been thru it before. You want my advice, take the money from the loggers for the health of the forest. You will still have pleanty of blow downs to saw up and the trees you have will grow better. There is no way you can cut what needs to be cut all by yourself. I know it seems like not enough money but any money is better than no money and a bunch of dead trees. Just make sure whoever you have do it, is responsible and knows how to get the job done without trashing the place.

[@lpeterman]

I'm with you MC; although I feel Sandy's pain as well. I have 80-acres, in the Willamette Valley of Oregon, and I cannot keep up with thinning for health and the blow-downs resulting from a neighbours clear-cut. It's always a trade-off in Forestry.

[@speedwagon7562]

Well, what my dad did.. 2003, retired, in SC, 73 yrs old, in northern NY he owned 11 acres of hard wood, hadn’t been logged, since 1958. Was contacted by phone by a logger, who’d walked his lot, wanted to buy, 50 mature hardwoods. ( he said, he’d be selective, for furniture wood) Offered dad, $3000. Dad calls me, asked my advice. I said, I think 50 ,mature hardwoods, is worth more than that, as firewood. Man called 3 times, to coax a deal, even sent pa a video of how he cleaned up all scraps. No signs of his work, except, stumps. Pa said no. Called me one day, he’d spoke with a cousin, his own age, another wood lot, same logger, his cousin, accomplished a better deal… the logger was figuring, 1/3 waste on his logs, meaning some trees were a total loss because, they might split, they might be hollow, they might simply break, dropping.. and no longer good for furniture cabinetry shop. Our cousin knew how to scale logs, so he bartered, board ft., after a tree was dropped.. no sale unless the logger still wanted the tree. My cousin made double the original offer, for the same trees. My father related the story to me, I said, dad you need to ask your cousin to manage your deal, pay him $500, if he’d work the same deal, with your lot. Logger called, after speaking with our cousin, and a deal was set. Pa asked, will you be cutting any spruce, longer said no, just furniture wood. Pa had known these woods, since he was 16. He said , there’s 5 spruce I’d like dropped, so I can get them to a saw mill. (I knew immediately, which 5 spruce he spoke of, because I knew them from when I was about 4 yrs old. It was like a small park, within the 11 acres, with 5 old spruce, and a spring in the center. Logger said, I’ll drop them for free, and, my trucks will deliver your logs to your choice sawmill, for free. You just tell me the length you want the logs, and figure the dimensions for you mill. Pa told me, I’m gonna build a barn..:) I did dads figuring, for dimensions, and gave him plans for a pole barn, 30/40’, two stories, with a 10’ ceiling… pa was excited. Board and batten siding, steal roof. He called me when the spruce came down, and told me to guess, how many logs went to the sawmill. I couldn’t guess, he said, 67 logs, from 5 trees … 1/3 were 12’ long, 2/3 were 10 ‘ long 4 logs were 16’ long. I didn’t realize until that point, they were old growth trees. The $6000.00 he got for his 50 trees, paid a man to build his barn😂

[@armedfarm3429]

This is the answer right here. Get rid of the junk trees. you really have nothing there.

[@elrobo3568]

I am a retired wild land FF and sawyer for USFS, I found your channel by accident and at first I thought big deal, I have experience. I then kept the video going and could not stop watching. I really appreciate your knowledge and insight about forest health. I am going to mill some lumber this week on my property and just want to say thanks from an old sawyer. Keep this up.

[@pseudopetrus]

Sandy I can tell you love your forest! I have a small forest on my farm, but I feel the same way.

[@sawingwithsandy]

Just something about it for sure

[@johnwoody4905]

good video it's a no win deal. if you do sell put it out on bids and get the money up front. the last timber cutter i got didn't pay for all he cut., they plant trees way to close if they had planted haft as many you could take your time. if you plant any trees do it your self and leave room for trees to grow. take care, be safe and well.

[@denismageau4044]

I’ve got the same problem, I have an 80 acre Boreal forest. Lots of blowdowns that will return to the ground but that’s ok because it allows light to reach the young saplings.

[@sawingwithsandy]

For sure

[@Treefarmerchad]

This past winter I had my red pines thinned. I had a professional come and mark the trees. A logging company came and removed 1900 trees. 16 trucks. This was our 4th and final thinning. We have all work done after the frost is in so no land gets destroyed. The job took 3 weeks total.

[@sawingwithsandy]

That sounds like a great way to do things. I also would prefer a winter harvest to keep things in tact.

[@Run4Ever77]

How many acres?

[@nickschiavone7330]

The other point they don't mention is the mess and damage left behind. I have had properties logged in the past and reference checking is critical, as is being onsite every day. With that said it is realistic to be honest in what you can accomplish bunkie yourself. If you can find a logger you are comfortable with and proceed you may well find your remaining trees grow quicker and produce more lumber in a few years. Plus the $5500 is better in your pocket now.

[@sawingwithsandy]

That would definitely be a fear of mine. I'd hate to be left with an eye sore and a huge job to clean up

[@jaedy1124]

I also live in Ontario, have a woodland mills sawmill, have 86 acres of huge white pine, spruce, red pine, huge tamarack etc ~ so basically tonnes of wood. The thing to remember, is that when they come through with the heavy equipment, even if they are careful and logging selectively, they will tear up your land. I mean, leave behind two foot deep ruts in the wet areas and essentially change the character of the entire forest to get what they want. Not their fault, just how logging is done. I assure you, do it yourself, mill the wood, and make MUCH more money. You get the satisfaction, the physical exercise and with a little patience, a good deal for those buying a better quality of lumber, relationships with those who are looking for that kind of rough cut, and enough money to live comfortably. They lowball you so they can seriously profit after expenses. More power to them, but do it yourself. I have an opinion because I live this life fully off-grid and when I figured I'd save some time and have logs delivered ( I know crazy) they wanted $4000 for about 20 logs. Half Pine and half Spruce.

[@beerbuzz62]

This was an amazing video Sandy,you shared a lot of information with your viewers.I hope it all works out for you

[@johanneslaxell6641]

I don't think doing it by yourself necessarily is the best idea. You should het a crew of two (one driving a "smallish" harvester and one driving a "smallish" forwarder) to do that. THEN you can take the Kioti and go cleaning if you want. There are much better things to do (saw lumber, build stuff or just being with family) than loose money doing it yourself. If you HAVE to do it, it might loose the "fun factor" and what then? You can't cut, clean and move at the same time so it will take "forever" as there will be many trees. Skidding the trees takes a long time and on your trailer you can only take so many trees, it is not made for that. Conclusion: let someone else thin with SUITABLE machines (it's small trees) and take care of the rest of the woods and your family instead. If you make some money it's nice, the larger money comes when the remaining trees are ready sawlogs 👍🏼🤗!

[@jayjudd6518]

Wake up if you can’t do the work how much mess will the loggers generate? Good story you should be careful.

[@TechOne7671]

Nice video, nice forest. You really like the forest so if you don’t need the money then keep it and manage it. It’s your happy place, and would be mine too if I had it. All the best what ever you choose to do with it.

[@delmanicke9228]

The trees have no root system to stand up to the winds. To closely planted and not enough different species to break up the winds sort of, I think earlier thinning would have helped your trees quit abit. I have birch, ponderosa pine, tamrack, dog fur, and spruce and a lot of new growth and old growth. The largest tree I just removed was 39" on the butt... hugh, to say the least. Now I have to figure out how to cut it on my 26" woodland mill. You have way more land than I do, and I diffently see your problems. The large cants do shrink, and you do have waste with that, but the lumber is nice, and it allows the tree to dry better. Big decisions, good luck. I know you'll make the right ones. 👍

[@sawingwithsandy]

Yeah earlier thinning would've been ideal for sure. I wasn't owner of the land at that time unfortunately. Those trees sounds like some nice lumber coming up!

[@chrisyohn7054]

I think you should consider letting the logger thin your stand, the faster it gets thinned the faster the trees left standing will grow. If done right you will have better roads for you to harvest in the future when you are older. Think of them thinning the trees for you and paying you to let them do it

[@doylerabjohn3435]

A man with a lot of educated insight. Love your content.

[@jeffhuffman5433]

I agree, Sandy that's not enough money to consider selling your logs. I would focus mostly on thinning the red pines slowly but surely and just enjoy life. life is short and we should enjoy it to the fullest every chance we get.

[@Cacheola]

Some good ideas. I got to the point last year where I cut larger slabs just to get some downed logs processed. What about posts, beams, and maybe poles for your pines? The prices were outrageous and considering the mess they'll make on your land, it's not worth it. Double it and consider. They'll also cherry pick and take the best trees

[@timscartoys9321]

There's absolutely no way that I feel you should let a logging company on your land for $4000 (US)!!! Their 30% probably ends up closer to 40%, and they will damage (kill) another 10% so you are left with 1/2 of YOUR trees left, and YOU are left with ALL the mess!!! Your Red Pine Forest will be nothing more than a disaster area!!! Have you ever counted how many trees are in each row?? Those rows look pretty long, times 1/4 of the number of rows perpendicular to those rows, winds up being an awful lot of trees!!! On the flip side, if you can harvest 3 - 8 foot lengths of 6-8 inch diameter logs per tree, it still takes 15-20 trees for a full cord! Now I'm not sure of how big of loads he was talking, but a 14 cord load could take almost 300 trees!! A little over a dollar per tree!! I totally agree with your way of thinking, and for that amount you can give them away or burn them up with Canada's largest wieny roast!!!

[@armedfarm3429]

I would let the loggers take it for nothing with the agreement to sign a contract to clean up the mess, bulldoze the junk they don't want into piles, with the idea to let the sun in. You would not believe how much the ground holds for seeds until a cat and logging equipment spins around a few times. Do several areas, you need some clearings bad. Clearings are what the wildlife wants & what the tree seeds want, have some space in the woods.

[@L46C3]

I do not know this answer but what if you sold off the first row for the going rate? What added value in growth and in what time frame would rows 2, and 4 gain? Maybe something to consider.. I know I wouldn't/couldn't sell of my acres..

[@richardferster8049]

Buddy, go with you gut, if you don't need the money, keep it. I've logged in BC all my life, those loggers aren't being fair, at all. Go to the local mill figure what that timber is worth to them per meter, meters per load, etc. Here in BC a load of logs, is approx. 5-7K per load, depending on quality, species, etc. Not sure what it is there. I would plunk away at it like, you, are doing, looks like you're having fun. I have a good time watching what you are doing, reality TV. Cheers.

[@matthewm8021]

Hire a forester. They will establish a harvesting plan based on your needs/wants, get you the best price for what you decide and manage the harvest to ensure the loggers only harvest what was agreed upon. They’ll take a cut, but seems well worth it to make a healthy forest.

[@matthewjohnson6360]

It should be you #1 priority to get the dead stuff out just in case a wildfire comes through, and you lose EVERYTHING. Some of the fallen you have NO use for you could find a person near you who could turn them into salt and pepper shakers/mills, ash trays, candy dishes. PLUS make woodchips and sell them for landscaping.

[@craignash4736]

Hey Sandy. I would never do that . I think you would have a hard time watching them take all those trees …your trees Don’t do it . Thanks for sharing. Craig. Pa.

[@sawingwithsandy]

I think I"d regret my decision the second I saw the relatively untouched forest turned into a commercial job site. I like logging but I don't think I would like the what might happen in the event I chose the wrong logging crew

[@LynnMacKenzie-w2s]

Get yourself a three point mount timber winch with a 2 hundred foot cable.. I have 100 acres of hardword in the Bruce and it is rugged hilly terrain.. Cut the tree and pull it to the trail .. Sure saves time trying to get to the log...I owned a woodmizer for twenty years.. Saw your small logs down to 4 inch cants especially cedar. You definitely cantnot leave your cut pine long as the worm will get into the wood. Best to do pine in the winter.. You can mill the larger logs into cants and let dry as long as you mill them a little larger for shrinkage.. If hardwood paint or oil the ends.. I also had an Woodlander 130 max for three years.. Not bad saw; I would call it a high end hobby saw since it has no hydraulics to move the log plus the frame will want to flex if left on a trailer package.. I sold it to the Amish and the owner immediately made a better up/down system.

[@lloydbutler7479]

Wind throw is a big problem in cleaning up. Lots fall because they have stared to rot, so your millable material is lots less than you would think. I am to the point of thinking I will just start to clean up the blow downs by piling them into wildlife piles for the logs to rot down and be animal shelters. It is a long slow process with atv and arch to get around, but at least I feel better about those areas. We cut a few millable standing trees while we are in an area to help get around.

[@sawingwithsandy]

The wildlife do like the blowdowns for sure. Long slow process, I agree with ya there

[@savannahrei8674]

Do you have a fire fighting skid that you have ready to protect your forest from the threat of wildfire?

[@tommywise1702]

Good luck, if you are retired or only work the land it might work out. Better equipment or some part time help would be better than $4k.

[@carld3184]

I completely understand your sentiments on intrinsic value, therefore I am going to disagree with your conclusion. Assuming that you can find a logger who will only take the rows that you have indicated and will pay you so much for each truckload get it done now! In two years you will not miss any of the trees that are gone and the remaining trees will be significantly healthier. So the intrinsic value of your property has increased tremendously plus you still have more healthy trees remaining. Keep up the good work and the fun videos.

[@DanielBelzil]

As the climate warms, they are saying that maples are not producing as much sap and that syrup yields are dropping. Wonder if you should not maybe let the maples grow in.

[@johnleeman5992]

Thinning is your best bet. Take a realistic acreage a year to thin. 3-5 acres or whatever. I went to college for parks and resource management. I would love to be able to talk to you about this issue. I once listened to an owner of a 100 acre forest. He stated if you take one year to care for ten acres how long will it take to accomplish that goal. He then said that even though you have been through the 100 acres you just start over because you are just focused on ten acres at a time.

[@sawingwithsandy]

Hi John. Thanks for coming along for the video. Sounds like you've got some good knowledge there. My plan is slow and steady and one day I"ll be onto a second thinning I"m thinking

[@johnleeman5992]

@sawingwithsandy , another way to look at the thinning is to look up. If you have the canopy of the trees touching thin the smaller one if the larger one is healthier. Most trees root systems get crowded and don't extend beyond the drip line of the canopy .

[@adirondackwoodsman]

Good discussion Sandy. The black flies are out here and I mentioned them as well in my last video. Hopefully only a few more weeks of them.

[@leethurston4774]

Could I ask who the loggers were and where you are located.

[@kenlangille9050]

thanks for sharing ,my little bit of nolege is $ 5500 less some exspences like fixing roads ,colverts you might as well give it away ,I'm in same situation price of logs is way down .fuel is way up ,I think better to keep doing what you are doing .

[@sawingwithsandy]

I can imagine with the cost of a load of stone around me being $500 CDN for a dump truck, it wouldn't take long to eat away all the profit. Same thing with diesel right close to $2 CDN per litre.

[@TomWolff-b9j]

Do you use any of the balsam fir as saw logs? Good luck with the black flies!

[@HARVIELL1]

Where do the woods become the forest? 🤠

[@harrycraviotto2375]

Sandy, I think you got some great ideas there and don’t sell your log short because that’s what they’re offering you. You gotta remember the taxes you gotta pay on the timber cuts that the government wants which wasn’t plugged into that numbers. I don’t believe you might take a look at the European logging process. They have some Equipment that cuts and loads logs and has big flotation tires that you can get around your property with that might be an option and then the third thing is if you need more equipment lease it for the amount of time that you need the equipment that way you’re not set with the high cost of the equipment if you can find it from that’s my two cents worth I’m down here in Idaho and I’m looking at your videos and I enjoy them and I have 60 acres that I gotta contend with also so don’t sell the timber short?

[@SawdustandSweatNC]

You have good instincts. The gut usually doesn't lie, right?

[@critical-thought]

I like your perspective. Do what you enjoy. Life is way too short to do otherwise.

[@sawingwithsandy]

100%. Life can change in a heartbeat

[@bernardtautz4854]

Has your forest been cleared cut in the last four decades the trees look very young

[@erniecesana7496]

I watch Mike Morgan from the Morgan's western Pennsylvania operate a track excavator.

[@kmw328]

US has a Forest Stand Improvement program for your situation. Canada could have something similar.

[@danbenson5319]

In that stand of scrawny trees you could take out about 50% of them for fence posts very quickly. It wouldn't require big expensive equipment.

[@sawingwithsandy]

If I had a market for the fence posts I'd do that for sure

[@clarencedobsonjr.2585]

Lost my red pine grove in 91 during an ice storm Domino effect. Four years before I bought my sawill. They were trash by then

[@hayesrutherford9415]

I'm lucky to have a number of saw mills to get prices from. Find someone with a self loader and deck your own logs according to how much they can haul. For example, if a local self loader can haul 3,000 b.f, deck enough logs yourself and give him a call. You could probably do a load per week and just deck the dead stuff that you come across until you want to mess with it.

[@sawingwithsandy]

The trouble I have is the road where a truck and trailer can drive to is a long ways from the forest

[@ada-yw1bb]

Most mills won't take the dead stuff, only for pulp wood, 26:08 and that barely pays for the truck .

[@hayesrutherford9415]

@@ada-yw1bb I 'm thinking harvest the dead stuff for personal use, deck enough live trees to sell a load.

[@paulcarlson-es1gw]

you need 6 more " sandys " thats a pile of trees. I almost had a logging company come in and harvest for me , they went to all the surrounding neighbours first .... ran out of time before spring rd bans came on , grateful I lost that companies phone number , all the neighbours are still complaining about the messes left behind .

[@sawingwithsandy]

That's for sure Paul! After hearing from others I'd feel awful if a big mess was left behind

[@fredanderson5544]

if it weren't for my age and health concerns i'ld be amenable to help thin for a cabin site next to a good fishing hole.

[@sawingwithsandy]

I always appreciate your support Fred! Thanks for coming along for the video! Have a great weekend

[@andrewrivera4029]

All due respect, you could solve some of your “problems “ with selling the wood. You do not know what will happen next year or after, the loggers will alleviate some access issues by getting roads established and you ultimately decide what they’ll take. You get a little cash, move the ball forward and you still have everything you have now and can continue logging.

[@MaritimeHomesteader]

Hey Sandy I hope all is well. I know you have said a few times you lived in central Ontario. I lived in the Espanola area for many years and Sudbury area before that. My sister owned a lodge on the French river for many years and I had been in the muskokas many times. Are you north of Barrie?

[@sawingwithsandy]

I am North of Barrie. I do know your old area well though up in Espanola. Beautiful spot!

[@joek511]

If I was considering what to do with my trees, and out of nowhere, somebody knocked on my door. I would say thank you God. He just answered your question, He even sent you somebody to do it. Just saying. One last thing, I often tell people if your seeking a loaf of bread and somebody offers you a slice, take it. Better to eat for the day, then going hungry

[@keithparker9027]

Call local mills and see what they are paying by ton , we log for a ton price to land owner

[@stevengullison410]

Good evening Sandy, it would be nice if we could hire students. They won’t work

[@sawingwithsandy]

Hey Steven! I'll have to just put a sludge IV in to kickstart my top gear to get the work done faster haha

[@donwimberley4772]

A lotta fuel for a conflagration....😮

[@saintaugustine1715]

It sound like a low ball offer for some reason just for giggles check how much money a truck load would give you As for the selective on my last comment i did mention that but myself with what i sean you got a lot of blow down again i will suggest to got down to 8 inches in diameter most of the from it goes down quick and 8 at the smallest you will go through your wood a lot faster and when you mill them every logs you will get a good amount of wood out of it this way less work to haul them out more wood out of every log you put on the mill you probaly would double your amount of wood going this route instead of 4 to 5 trees per you would get 7 to 8 per day after a while you go back to the old way and don't waste anything because right now there wasting on the ground so snatch the best of it well like i told you before it is a suggestion you have a great day

[@sawingwithsandy]

Yeah 8" would give me a better shot at getting on top of things for sure. Be even more selective than I originally thought. Thanks for all your help I appreciate the support and suggestions

[@KnowArt]

you can do it!

[@fisherman5845]

Sounds like a lot of work for not allot of money doing it yourself hire the loggers to get caught up

As a lifetime resident of Southern California and now Seattle I am used to high dollar prices on everything. Was very shocked by what seemed like lowball offers on your trees. If that is all they are worth then keep them and continue to have the fun with harvesting that you have enjoyed for years.

[@sawingwithsandy]

For sure. It's tough to want to sell the trees at that price but realistically I probably will never be able to sell the trees at any price since I value them so much

[@Mittamies]

2/3 too much trees in red pine section?

[@sawingwithsandy]

usually there's more mortality . Close planting also keeps the limbs from growing

[@robertnelson4755]

In perspective that was $2.00 a tree. A 2"x4" Canadian at Home Depot is $3.98. How many 2"x4"s can you get from a tree. You can get 20 plus 2"x4" from ea. tree.

[@martinfrantz1623]

I'm in same position but I definitely am not letting logger in would be much devistation in my opinion.I need to get off my ass but 4 or 5 tree a dav then saw 🪚 s more work than people may think.also it cost money not only time to do this so you have to be making your cost as you go along.I like steak for dinner not beans Lol.best of luck

[@sawingwithsandy]

It sure is a job just taking care of a few trees a day. I"m tired just thinking about it haha. Thanks Martin for all your support!

[@dougpark1025]

Forest management can be a lot of work. A couple of thoughts on having someone else do it. First, thinning results in trees growing faster which means larger trees which are normally more valuable. So if for the prices you quoted today you make a small profit you now have a healthier forest which next time around you have more desirable larger trees to harvest that are more valuable. Second, as you mentioned you have some access improvement which would still be needed for future harvesting as well. This could also be useful for other reasons such as having access to bring in heavy trucks for other uses, such as improving your sawmill site. You can still continue doing the work you enjoy, but in the meantime your forest is becoming more valuable at a faster rate and you have a bit of cash to invest in other things. If you do choose a logger, have them show you jobs they have done to see how well they clean up. Sometimes you get loggers that take the logs but fail to do a good job cleaning up at the end.

[@sawingwithsandy]

That's a good point Doug. It's a tough thing for me to let go control of as the unknown is what gets to me.

[@jimmerrithew453]

Hi Sandy. A few months ago, Adam, on Hometown Acres, went through some of the same thought processes. He showed a neighbour's bush, which had been logged and left as a disaster. Adam found a logger who thinned the forest, to take out lower value trees and leave the better trees and seed trees to flourish. Good luck with this project.

[@dmwi1549]

dougpark1025 Very true. My neighbor had his 7 acres “thinned “. 12”-18” diameter white and red pine 2 years ago. 3 truck loads. I looks like a bomb went off. No cleanup. My place was thinned 16 years ago. They took 90 trees. They gave him $10 US a tree. Then he paid $900 for cleanup. Break even but healthier stand with no fire waste left behind or bug piles. Now it’s time to thin again. 2 years ago a 75 mph wind storm topped and/or uprooted 20+ trees that I sawed into lumber.

[@lpeterman]

@@jimmerrithew453 The method of thinning the lesser value/thinner diameter trees is called "Thinning from below" and can be helpful if the "leave" trees are healthy, fat and happy.

[@SunriseLAW]

Oregon here, with 400 acres of timberlands not far from Eugene. There have been horrific ice storms that did immense damage. We wanted to clean out the fallen or damaged trees and replant. The loggers ended up doing a clearcut (more or less). Here in Oregon, the State Dept. of Forestry is actively involved in these operations to ensure the work meets basic requirements and that the forest is replanted. However: the loggers seem to justify whatever they want to do and once they mobilize, it is hard to stop them. The operational window in our area is very short in recent years due to increased fire problems. It is increasingly difficult and costly to "manage" the forest. The replanting is doing very well and is outgrowing the blackberry vines (for the most part anyway).

[@65895555]

Sandy, here is another thought. I had a logger start to clear my red pine 20 acres a few years ago. I insisted that he use low impact logging. Just a tracked skid steer, chainsaws cleared every third row. I could only get pulp price for my pine, so yes I took a loss to start, but now I have exceptional access, can mill the bigger pine as I choose. You will ultimately gain a more efficient process for the rest of your milling. I would get that logger in now.

[@lpeterman]

Excellent advice.

[@aldredske6197]

Hi Sandy!!😀😀 I still say you really should let the loggers do your first thinning for you so it gets done in a timely fashion. There will still be more than enough for you to saw lumber out of after they are done. Leaving the tops of the tree 6 inch diameter and under is going to create a larger bark beetle infestation in those tops witch can cross over to the stands live trees and kill them. Speaking from a professional perspective you really need to bite the bullet and get it done. The sooner the better!! Take care my friend!!😀😀💚💚 Logger Al

[@caveweta]

Here’s my 10c worth. The more I look at forests like yours, the more I’m convinced Nature has never been tidy, and dead trees are as much a resource for this planet and the creatures they nourish as the live ones are to mill. Keep doing what you do, we love these videos Sandy.

[@lpeterman]

Well said! Big thumbs up to you! A scattering of snags in the right places are better than a couple dozen live trees for wildlife/forest management.

[@flyingjeff1984]

Yeah, they make great forest fire starters. Ask any Californian.

[@branchandfoundry560]

@@flyingjeff1984 Fire is no stranger to Canadians either.

[@lpeterman]

@@flyingjeff1984 What they make is great wildlife condos -- Snags, under ANY conditions don't "Start" fires.

[@TinMan445]

@@flyingjeff1984forest fires are a natural part of a forest lifecycle. Nature doesn’t care about your California home.

[@wolley2012]

Id have some one in there with a cut to length processor and forwarder. Clean up the fir and thin the pine. They could do it in a few weeks. Do it in the winter it comes out fine. Around here you would be lucky to find some to do it and pay you. 5k seems pretty good. Almost zero market for pulp wood.

[@jeffpeters1014]

The payoff is that the thinning is being done and access to your property is being built by the contractor. If you section the property correctly you can get an incredible amount of work done in a short amount of time.

[@inspectr1949]

Hello Sandy boy how I enjoyed your story we are connected at the hip wish we were a wee bit closer to sit over a favorite beverage and chat and even share equipment, I'm in an identical situation 6hrs and 40 minutes away in the southern Adirondacks with 20 acres and a chance to buy 50 more, at 75 I just retired from my day job to spend my remaining life doing exactly the same as you with a life style of my choosing that no price can be put on.

[@richardbrowne1679]

Hi Sandy: I would be curious to know what your forester thinks of your plan. I think you would be way better off finding the right logger, maybe using the cut to length method, selling some of the timber to the mill and also keeping some of the harvested timber that you can mill yourself. Just looking at your workload, I’m not sure you can get ahead of the declining forest health curve without investing in some expensive equipment.

[@sawingwithsandy]

The plan I'm going on was created by a forester. Id consider selling lumber for sure if we could come up with a price but I have a feeling I value the trees more than a logger could pay which I understand. I likely will be able to get ahead somewhat but may have to invest in some bigger equipment to harvest faster

[@branchandfoundry560]

Huge wildfire fuel load there. Within the first 4mins you say many times that you intended to but cannot get to all of them, so they'll "be there for eternity." Reality is they'll be there until the right lightning strike sparks disaster. Not bashing you in any way, just food for thought as this looks like a ticking time bomb.

[@stihl0256]

Seems to me that you working alone and with the present equipment or maybe some better machinery will not be able to get the thinning done on the Red Pine forest as quickly as it needs to be done. I know you will get it eventually but looks to me that they need it done now. Or before now. Even if you break even on the thinning you will have a much healthier and valuable forest. imho.

[@sawingwithsandy]

Yeah for sure. The red pines are past due for thinning. I'm a bit limited by my workforce (me) and equipment but I think with time I"ll still be happy with the results

[@bobwollard9105]

Great decision, Sandy. I have 200 acres of heavily forested land in east Texas. Our trees are much larger than your red pines and are more difficult to harvest. As a result, I can only harvest limited numbers on my own and for me to saw. I think you will come out ahead by the selective harvest you described. But I would encourage you to stack your harvested trees off of the direct contact with the ground due to the high potential of rot and insect losses. Our state forest agency advises us to spray an insecticide on the harvested trees, at regular intervals, in order to keep pine beetles and such at bay. Good luck with your harvest. God bless you, brother.

[@sawingwithsandy]

In my area even stacking the logs off the ground will get bugs boring into them in 3 to 4 weeks after the tree has been cut down. One of the challenges I have is having to saw the logs in just a few weeks after harvest to avoid this. Sounds like a great spot your'e got there Bob! 200 acres of trees would be a dream!

[@buddyreed2623]

Hello Sandy. You have a monumental task ahead of you no matter what you chose to do. Have you considered sacrificing one or two areas with perhaps a 50-yard diameter to use as a burn location? I know some areas are difficult to get to but perhaps it would help to get the blow downs and standing dead out of the way and not transporting them very far. I think the loggers are thinking of themselves more and how much they can make off of your land. Decisions to be made...... Have good days!

[@jackbaskin371]

Sandy, I am not trying to be critical or anything, just an observation of what you showed us in this video. As you were showing how things look I could not help but think of the way the USFS has been mis-managing our forests. For the last several years our forests have been devastated by fire, which is not an entirely bad thing. The point is, our forests are so packed with fuel for a fire that they burn much more ground than they used to. What you showed is a prime example of what I am saying with fuel everywhere, dead down stuff, dead standing stuff, brush and ground completely covered with fuel. The old saying, you can log it or watch it burn is something to consider as the odds of a fire increase every year. Sometimes it is better to give a little to get a lot. By yourself, you will not be able to fulfill your vision, which is a good one, for the forests under your care and the result is what we got a glimpse of in this video. Another option for you is to cut, limb and skid the logs yourself, hire a truck and sell the logs directly to a mill. Again, please do not take this as personal, it is not intended to be such, it is only an old man, who loves and respects the forests, thinking out loud about how our asphalt and concrete dwellers in Washington DC have miserably failed our National Forests.

[@TheBeardedCarpenter]

Howdy Sandy- I certainly understand and feel your pain. It’s an immense amount of work to do what you’re doing. While I’m not one to give you advice, I do know you have a lot of work ahead of you. I live on the farm my Dad grew up on and I have a huge amount of sentimental value on the trees and land. I wish you the very best with whatever you decide to do and will support you in my thoughts. Take care, be safe and God bless you

[@sawingwithsandy]

Great to hear from you! It sure seems like a monumental task but slow and steady I hope to get there some day!

[@woods174]

Interesting discussion! As a Forest technician I have these discussions with landowners weekly. You mentioned poor access. If you improved access you could sell some logs to generate some income and keep the best logs to saw yourself. Appropriate access adds value to your forest. Plan with your values in mind!

[@bills1669]

I've been working with the government Forest Technician here in New Brunswick, Canada, since last fall to find the appropriate company to do commercial thinning on my 100 acre lot. He found recommended a company that he was worked with on other projects. I just signed a contract with them. The Technician has bee a great help!

[@stevehennessy3588]

I feel the same way Sandy - love my little 37 acre forest. I've been building trails and harvesting the trees. Just got an HM126 sawmill and will now start making my own lumber for my projects. It may take longer, require more work and may not be as pretty, but it will be all me and my effort. I can not only live with that - it's what I want to do with my retirement. Have fun, and keep sawing!

[@sawingwithsandy]

Thanks Steve. We both sound like we think the same way

[@edrose8358]

My retirement dream is your retirement reality. I'm glad for you brother!!!

[@aaturauhala3367]

I believe youre in desperate need of a thinning (From the bottom, In finnish Alaharvennus) taking the smaller trees that are left under the big ones taking energy never doing nothing, and some of the over trees that are at the end of the road too big for your own machinery. Im not sure on the correct number of trees per hectare in your lands (ha = 2,5ish acres) But generally speaking 700-900 big trees per hectare depending on soil quality and how much the trees usually "spread their limbs". E.g oaks spread them A LOT (we dont have oaks so I dont know the correct amount for them per ha) and spruces dont spread practically at all. For smaller spruce stands there should be around 1200-1500 per ha and then thin them out every 5-10 years for optimal growth. THIS IS FINNISH BASED INFORMATION FROM A FORESTRY ENGINEER MIGHT NOT APPLY FULLY TO THE STATES. Different trees and all that.

[@leslubiesdetienne]

I make a living cleaning blow downs. Its a bit scary the amount of trees and forests devastated by hurricanes and strong winds every year. A lot of our forests have been completely cleared at some point in the past but people are not always aware they need to tend their forest gardens. A lot of people own large lands that they've inherited from parents or bought as investments/play grounds but aren't aware of the responsibility for longevity. It's easy and seems to make sense to say "it's a forest it'll grow fine if you leave it alone" and it might be true if it hadn't been cleared sometime in the past. It wont find it's balance by itself since it'll only grow the "fast" growing varieties and choke out any hard woods etc. And the trees will grow tall and thin. Logging is a volumes game. it's crazy the amount of wood cut every year and the size of equipment used by large logging companies. there's a reason we can buy a 2x4 for a few dollars. logger make pennies on a dollar so they need huge amounts. You are already doing more than most so good call to keep going while refocusing your efforts.

[@runtimmytimer]

You’re missing an important part of your evaluation process-opportunity cost. Taking less money but getting back a tremendous amount of time will likely result in higher total income. Then there’s the overall health of the forest. How much do you set back the forest health because it takes you 3-5 years to do what a logger can do in a couple months? What does that delay cost you for decreased growth of the remaining trees? You’ll never keep up with the blow downs anyway. Just food for thought.

[@sawingwithsandy]

I agree the best situation is to thin now but I think the value I place on harvesting the trees myself is greater than the value anyone could pay me for them

[@hcr-motorworks]

Time to buy a feller buncher and a skidder!

[@erniecesana7496]

Equipment and help is necessary to make faster progress.

[@milesboyer4657]

Sometimes it just makes sense to let the loggers come in and do their thing for the long term gains. I understand the attachment, my family has 80 acres in Iowa and its all trees, lots of hardwoods and a healthy mix of softs. My grandfather has been working that place for the last 50 years, then my dad and now me once i was old enough to help. Ive been at it for 30 years now. Even with the 3 of us we had a logger come in and take a large selection of trees to to help get ahead of the management.

[@sunpathviewer]

My Landlord Lady her neighbor Logged 20 acres just Pine got 43,000 usd

[@sawingwithsandy]

Any idea how many cords of pine did they remove or the diameter of trees they removed?

[@lpeterman]

PCT (Pre-Commercial Thinning) is rarely profitable, most times one barely breaks even, or loses a bit. That being said, the resulting health in the remaining trees makes them considerably more valuable. On my 80-acres, I'm loathe to take down any healthy softwoods, but like you, I realize the vigor and health of the remaining trees are very important. One must take the long view in these situations -- forestry is never speedy, except in "recovery" mode... Does Ontario offer any cost-share programs to assist in PCT? (Down here, the NRCS has multiple programs for woodland owners.) The current sexy program, getting lots of attention is the "Forest resilience and Wildfire resistance" for private landowners to help reduce their forests in case of wildfire. Perhaps inquire of the Ministry of Forests? It's just a thought. Cheers from a former BC guy, now in the Willamette Valley of Oregon.

[@creatednordestroyed5339]

My advice.. log the entire red pine plantation while you are young to watch the new forest grow.

[@RLee-zs1ds]

Getting either one of the loggers in for the first thinning will result in a much healthier forest, which in time will produce larger and healthier trees. The larger and healthier trees will return a better investment if you log them and mill them. Treat the $ 5,500 or $7,500 as a "throw away" and the price to get a healthier forest, as it will pay off long term since you will have access roads for you to do the future 'second thinning'.

[@rickkern5785]

Selling the trees for $5500 will improve your forest significantly. In fact if you got nothing from the thinning by the foresters you would be better off with the trees gone. Your thinned forest will be so much more productive and approachable you will love it. There is enough deadfall and future deadfall in your other forest that you can improve and get better wood for you to process... Good luck.

[@battleaxefabandmachine]

I have a 5 acre stand of woods that I have started thinning myself. Mine are all hardwood. I, like you, value my property and trees. That's why I am doing it myself. I cut 6 trees today, including 3 big white oaks. Those 3 trees will bring around $1000. I also am about to purchase a woodland 126 mill. So I will be sawing alot of the other trees for my personal use and maybe sell some lumber. I just don't want to share the money with anyone else. Lol. I will probably sell most of the white oak and come close to paying for the mill.

[@star9732]

Time and money are interchangeable.

[@MrMakkote]

U are 20years late for that thinning. Do that very garefully or you are goint to get problems what u just said.

[@sawingwithsandy]

I have to play the cards I'm dealt

[@boooshes]

I agree and understand your selected approach. One other consequence of a logger coming in that I don't think you mentioned is what they leave behind. Down here in the states the loggers use big equipment and leave a torn up mess. Not worth it. Forget the blow down except for exceptional, high value trees and work your plantation trees.

[@bills1669]

I just signed a contract with a woodlot management company to do commercial thinning on a 100 acre woodlot I have outside of Moncton, NB. My woodlot has a lot of fir and windfalls. The are going to clear out the fir, thin out the popular and hardwood. This company does not do clear cuts. They select cut. Their harvesters and porters are small wheeled machines that leave minimual impact on the ground. They put the limbs and tree tops on the 16' hauling roads for the porter to run on. The company, which is under contract with the local municipality to manage the water resevoir's watershed woodlots, is environmentally conscience. They identified 10 acres of my land that they will not cut because it is wetland that borders a bog. They also found an active Osprey nest that they created a 50' buffer around so they won't disturb the birds. In 2 years time they will do another lot cruise to see what trees are regenerating. If needed the Provincial Government will supply the seedlings of the desirable species and pay them (or me) to plant. Then in 15 years they will return to do another harvest.

[@bills1669]

Their projection is that in 15 years the harvest volume will be greater than the one they are doing now. They are also giving me 12 cord of 8 foot hardwood delivered to my home (about 5 miles away) I've been working with a Forest Technician from the Provincal Wood Marketing Board who helped put this all together. He will be my eyes on the ground doing weekly inspections of the operation to ensure that the conditions of the contract are being adhered to. They conservatively estimate harvesting 1500 cord of sawlogs, pulp and hardwood. My pay is conservatively estimated at $20,000. 15 year projection is a payout of $31,000 for the second harvest. The company provided me with a well researched operational plan that impressed me. I am looking forward to working with them. Cheers! Bill

[@wallaceviviansadventures2095]

Personally i think they are low Bolling you if you sell it sell by the cords logs going around here for $300 a cord so easy to get $175 to $200 and wood now it $200 so you should get $125 a cord. i buy my logs for $300 and sell lumber at $1.25 a square foot i sell bag slabs. the 3 and 4 inch board i build garbage boxes and get 125 a box. i clear about 700 on a cord of logs. you got your own forest there is a lot of money to be made if you go that way. have a great evening

[@natedscate]

Red pine is an interesting species, height growth in general is the same regardless of density, diameter growth is dependent on density. A first thin happens around age 25, your way long past. Light thinning to start to increase diameter. Try to thin so each individual trees has at least one open side. Have fun!

[@sawingwithsandy]

Thanks Nate. I"ll be getting down to work as soon as I can and will sure have no shortage of work

[@natedscate]

Something to consider, most forest management considerations are for cutting the stand at one time and then a re-entry at another specified time. You have the luxury of continual releasing these trees. You might concentrate on cutting full rows first, leaving 3 leave rows, this will release two rows at a time to put on diameter. Walk down the center row and pick dominant trees to grow for the mill, cut a co-dominant competing with the crop trees in this middle row. In time you can work on adjacent rows to the skid trails. Don't worry about the runts not competing with crowns. This should minimize any wind or ice damage.

[@natedscate]

Simple way of thinking, your wanting to make some space to grow more needles. Needles=wood, extra growth with red pine is in the form of increased diameter growth

[@timberterra]

Very enjoyable tour through your forest and your thought process. My advice is develop a plan that allows a commercial cut to improve the value of your forest (which you covered quite well), because time is the enemy with a poor quality forest. The plan would leave the work you enjoy most while knowing time is on your side and the value of your stand is improving. I had a commercial cut about 12 years ago and am now able to manage the re-generation that has happened since. That is more enjoyable to me than spending all my time cutting mature trees. The cut also left plenty of mature trees for me to harvest for lumber or to sell a truckload or two to a sawmill. Allow the commercial cut to fund access roads you don't have now. Even if you break even money-wise, you'll have a better forest as a result.

[@TBoodro]

Tough decision here Sandy. Great job illustrating your challenge and outlining the options. Appreciate you sharing the numbers too. Down here in the Southern US I believe many thin every third row in something like a pine forest after 10-15 years. With the young age and slower rate of growth (due to tighter spacing) the first thinning isn't the most profitable. They use the small thin ones for pulpwood mostly down here. But I will echo what other commenters have said in that it will open up the rest of your stand to higher quality growth, and the sooner it is complete the better for the remaining trees. You could also think about selling those first trees as trading them for a few infrastructure improvements, boosting the growth of your stand, and if you come out with a little extra then that's even better. And if you're thinning every 4th row then they are leaving more timber behind than you could ever cut, and the sooner it is thinned the bigger it will grow in your lifetime. That means bigger trees for the mill later, or a much more profitable thinning in 10 years. I struggled with the same thing on our property honestly. We all want to be good stewards of our land, and I have definitely felt the pull to just thin myself rather than hire a logger. Best of luck with whatever path you choose.

[@desert-walker]

I would just sell it to the highest bitter this way you don’t have to get your hands dirty and you’ll clear out the forest. You’ll have plenty of trees left over to do what you have to do

[@Ironrodpower]

By intrinsic Value you mean SUBJECTIVE Value. Nothing has Intrinisic Value. Economic Misnomer. All Value is Subjective