Long Form: Savernake, What’s in a Name? Plus Wild Goose Chase; Enford Part Two

#wildgoosechase #enford #wiltshire #romanroads #savernakeforest
I discuss the name of Savernake forest and where it might come from plus I look wildly for a red stone and check out a lump in the ground hoping it is a Roman road
These history walk videos are about the English landscape in and around the south west of England (though I make the odd foray into Wales). I often use ancient charters (such as Saxon charters) to give me insight into the way the landscape was viewed in the past.
But it is not the Saxons that interest me the most (though they do) but the prehistoric world and its ancient monuments, trackways and ditches.
#Archaeology #oldenglishcharters #antiquarians #historywalks #britishhistory

[@slave2damachine]

Congratulations, I think you cracked it 👏. They should rename the Salisbury Avon the savernake , to many avons spoil the brothy Brook.I live in hope the red stone is still with us ,hidden in plain site.Thanks

[@AllotmentFox]

I’m going to reply to this as part of a video. Sorry if I have spent too long answering

[@aegelsthrep]

One of my earliest memories is playing hide and seek with my dad in the ditches at Richborough Roman Fort. As a teenager, I would try and trace the Roman roads extending from there in the local woods and fields surrounding Canterbury. Your channel has awakened lots of happy memories and spurred me on to make more. Thankyou.

[@AllotmentFox]

Thank you for making me feel it is all worthwhile. I used to wander around the woods tracing things which is fine when you are a kid but now I regularly get a rollicking for strolling off course

[@JimBagby74]

I heard an "Ay Up" in this one. Haven't heard that since my ramblings around the Notts/Derby area. Then it was more like "Eye Oop". Old Norse "Look Out" or "Watch Out" if I'm not mistaken. But like so many old phrases it becomes multi-functional I suppose. You're saying "What's that?". None of these meanings really work as a friendly greeting unless you're a Norseman in a contested part of the world. "Look out,Tom. Locals are kicking up again. " I visited Old Sarum right as they were closing the entrance so I couldn't take a proper look around, but just standing up on the main platform area inside the Iron Age ramparts was amazing. It was a sunny September afternoon. It did strike me as one of the most enigmatic and beguiling places I'd visited in Britain. With my luck, my return for the full tour will fall on a day when the sky is a lead sheet and the rain is going sideways.

[@AllotmentFox]

There is no Norse in my English, I can tell you, an outrageous suggestion. I have no idea why I say it but I do, but there is a hint of irony in its use. There are several old remnants that survive because of irony, including thee (not always ironic, don’t laugh if a Bristolian says it); and thee, thine and thou can be heard up north. “Ow bis” can be heard in Bristol between friends which is “how be-est thee” but I was last called a mickle mucker (big friend) years ago so it is dying out. I caused much mirth at a dinner party saying “‘ark at ee” (liston to he [incredulously]) when someone needed their ego pricking. Several factors contribute to the mixing of class and regi9nal dialects, mostly: prison, a drive towards upward mobility, school, the army, television.

[@JimBagby74]

I've heard "me old mucker" and I suppose "Ark at ee" might be substituted with "Get You" in Britain or "Get a load of that " in America. What one is getting a load of should be fairly obvious.

[@pwhitewick]

Brilliant. So would this possible link work with the given name of "Safernoc" rather than Savernake? Avon - Afene. So I am guessing thats a yes.

[@AllotmentFox]

Yes A-S words with f in the middle are pronounced as a v. Which is why we have today wolf and wolves, leaf and leaves, wife and wives

[@WC21UKProductionsLtd]

That was a wild landscape on the military ranges. I'd imagine you're right that the Romano British living there had an estate that ran down to lower ground. I guess it wasn't as wild and rough a place to live as some that I've seen in the northwest. That did look a bit aggerish, but quite narrow. Looks like the modern route runs alongside it, so it could have been eroded away by that slippage, I suppose. Very exciting re your Savernake theory. How is Savernake spelt in that first charter? These last 2 "programmes" have been gripping and can't wait to see if you and your guest crack that road! Much better than Nationwide!

[@AllotmentFox]

I am the Fred Dineage of KZbin antiquarianism. How! Savernake is spelt Safernoc in the old charter.

[@WC21UKProductionsLtd]

@@AllotmentFox Isn't he still doing How? I was shocked when I learnt that recently. When I say "recently", it was probably 15 years ago!

[@AllotmentFox]

@@WC21UKProductionsLtd well he’s alive and kicking. He retired in 2021 according to Wikipædia

[@tweedyoutdoors]

Lots to think about here and some gorgeous visuals as always! I think your theory on the derivation of Severnake is very compelling. I read that Savernake Forest prior to the 19th Century was ten times the size it is today, and it included West Woods. Are there potential answers to be found around Wootton Rivers? That looks to me like at least one parish where the Savernake Forest and the Avon (or at least a headstream of it) may have met.

[@tweedyoutdoors]

Herman Moll's 1724 map of Wiltshire seems to give a clear sense of one of the three main springs of the Avon, as it was understood then, being somewhere near Wootton, on the edge of Savernake Forest.

[@AllotmentFox]

There are charters and forest perambulations all around there which I haven’t explored yet but on this particular question I think I have made my closing statements and have left it with the jury. But should I come across a field name that happens to be a missing link I shall be overjoyed. Thank you for the nice comments. I noticed you are doing more landscape videos again.

[@AllotmentFox]

I shall take a look. On modern maps the canal gets in the way, annoy8ngly.

[@tweedyoutdoors]

@@AllotmentFox The 1724 map isn't very detailed, but I think that's partly why the association between that source of the Avon and Severnake Forest looks so clear. As you say no canal in the way!

[@KarenCotton-ex9oz]

HI thank you for a super video as usual. Regarding the cattle and the lack of water. I grew up in East Grafton near the Savernake. My first paid job was to walk up ion the morning onto the downs above the village and open a gate for the cattle. They would then walk down into the village for milking. and a a drink. then back up to the grazing on the chalk. I only did mornings but they were milked twice a day. . Later in life I moved to Cornwall that retains a wealth of old pre Roman names. Many settlements and farms are called Hendra. In Welsh. each Hendra has also a Haddra I believe. These are the winter and home pastures and the summer and high pastures. In the same culture could the people on the plain have been doing the same thing ? Sorry. a bit wordy but last thing. I now farm sheep. They provide wool. meat and milk. No need to keep cattle on high ground and they drink very little water. none if there is rain or dew. Were the people on the plain sheep keepers as were generations after them right up until the >50ies ? Thanks for what you do.

[@iainmc9859]

I'm with you on the U, W, V, replacement. I didn't realize Old Sarum was so close, should have done, I've camped in it (with permission). Talking about hiding in plain site. Perhaps its just called the Avon because a new Saxon overlord asked a local Briton 'What's that called ?' and he got the reply of 'River', with a wry grin from the loquacious native. I can't see a herd of cattle being moved backwards and forwards daily from the river, in peaceful times a cowherd would just stay with them in a shieling down at the water source, of course you've then got the problem of transporting milk, perhaps a rotation system. Which begs the question what about water for the settlement. Our ancestors had enough sense to build settlements near a daily dependable water sources; climatic or geomorphological change ??? So you're looking for a red stone in a field of ochre coloured grass ... good luck with that 🤨

[@AllotmentFox]

Finding an Anglo-Saxon stone is immensely satisfying. People did used to move animals about all the time but I’m sure not that far. The land next to rivers, meadland, nearly always had strict rules about grazing, it was too important to the village. Then arable land was too important for grazing: bread, heaven forfend, beer, which left the downland for grazing. That was when each village was mostly one economic entity, rather than the free-for-all we have now.