Looking For Meaning in Tim Burton's Movies | An Analysis

[@Kitefel]

Thanks for thoroughly ruining my childhood

[@Gee-xb7rt]

She missed Pee Wee's Big Adventure, which is probably his best film.

[@spencexxx]

Try to think through what she said. It's not all that clever or insightful.

[@throwback74]

Don't worry, I feel like Beetlejuice was kind of already ruined by Jeffrey Jones being a convicted pedophile

[@xmlthegreat]

@@spencexxx but it is mostly true.

[@izabellavanryn3531]

That is what I don't understand. With the exception of Ed Wood, and her political disappointments with Tim Burton as a whole, why compare what are basically children's movies with David Lynch and John Waters' works? I loved Beetlejuice and Edward Scissorhands a lot as a kid. It was simply both enough creepiness, and a fun story. You might as well tear Alvin Schwartz apart for not being as deep and edgy as Stephen King.

[@MAMoreno]

The conflict in Tim Burton's films (or his better films, at least) seems to be between nonconformists who wish for inclusion in society and nonconformists who wish to dismantle society. Lydia Deetz and Bruce Wayne may feel out of place, but they're willing to defend the status quo against Beetlejuice and the Joker because the villains' disruption of social norms exceeds what Burton deems as an acceptable disruption. In fact, Lydia even finds herself in tension with her stepmother because of the latter's desire to destroy the quaint charm of the house with her Expressionistic art, and the Joker's "homicidal art" poses a similar threat for reasons beyond "Murder is bad." The ideal world for Burton is one in which the "strange and unusual" is incorporated into the middle class American dream, not offered as a replacement for it. If anything, John Waters would be an antagonist in a Tim Burton film--an artist whose diversity is disruptive to cultural norms rather than a quirky complement to them. Perhaps that's why Burton has mainstream appeal: he's asking to be invited to the party and accepted as he is rather than questioning if his outsider status reflects an inherent problem with the party itself. He views inclusion as something that's hindered primarily by internal social anxiety and only secondarily by external gatekeeping, or at the very least he wants to imagine a fantasy world where that's the case, where he'd be loved if only he were brave enough to put himself out there. (And maybe his success has largely fulfilled that fantasy for him.)

[@matildasmesses6507]

M.A. Moreno this so much this. I was a goth growing up (still am) and I did it cause I just loved the music, the color black, and the art and literature that came with it. I wanted to be accepted not left out so I understand burton making most of his sets suburban.

[@wanderingoryx3710]

Are you able to read what you write, laugh at how stupid it is, and smile and all the replies you receive? Are you even capable of smiling? 😂

[@Arcanewolf86]

Well this was an infinity better analysis than the above video. Cheers.

[@minotaurseduction]

A nice articulation of what might indeed be Burton's position, M.A. Moreno: "He views inclusion as something that's hindered primarily by internal social anxiety and only secondarily by external gatekeeping..." Another way of looking at it might be that his films were aimed at people only mildly or temporarily excluded (or self-exiled) from the mainstream, such as adolescents going through a phase, or the young who've yet to find their place. His films are self-help for the shy, the awkward, the lonely. Those looking for a more serious critique, either because of intellectual curiosity or because of a real grievance with society probably wouldn't be drawn to his movies in the first place. On another note, since Ms. Fish bothered to mention Gavin McInnes in her Fight Club video, she might like to take a look at his video on why he likes the suburbs: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jZ_GZ31ombimnKs McInnes likes the suburbs because of what and who is excluded, although one might argue about whether this exclusion were based on external gatekeeping or internal social anxiety.

[@literallygaston2489]

Wandering Oryx You seem very open-minded/s

[@Sandwhaler]

In Tim Burton's The Nightmare Before Christmas you can see masterful dedication to the craft. By it's director, Henry Selick.

[@excellentestevan4488]

Lol! Very well put, same for Coraline (some people still think Tim Burton directed the film).

[@nononopenono]

the only tim burton joint that sort of holds up lol

[@stevejames5580]

completely ignores the fact Burton came up with the story and the character of Jack Skellington and was heavily involved with the film and was actually going to direct it. Selick was just the guy on set, Burton was the real director of the film. Just go watch Monkeybone (which was solely) directed by Selick and then tell me he’s a genius.

[@stevejames5580]

@@nononopenonoyou know you like Tim Burton again, it’s not 2010. Also you’re gonna let some annoying NYU grad David Lynch dicrider tell you what to think? shameful.

[@stevejames5580]

@@nononopenono So you hate Burton for no discernible reason, I mean, that’s why you’re here aren’t you?

[@shaggytheshaman]

To be fair, I've always thought that Beetlejuice being an obnoxious creep was the point...? I remembered Beetlejuice fondly because it was a well-made movie... a good character doesn't mean a morally righteous character. Some good characters are bad people. The movie very clearly sides against Beetlejuice, not *with* him. That said, I completely agree with your analysis of Tim Burton's movies. I just think that Beetlejuice's characterization as a creep you're not supposed to think is a good person was intentional. The narrative definitely frames him as the antagonist.

[@Lvmikki77]

Idk about the movie but the musical definitely made that point very clear The musical is also more satirical in my opinion

[@elgatonegro1703]

I feel like there was a cartoon series after the film where the character was actually funnier and more kid-friendly? That could be why people misremember it from their childhoods...I don't know though, I only saw the film as an adult. Edit: whoops, the video mentioned this- like an idiot I didn't watch it all the way through before going to the comments

[@FOX12-y2e]

I think you have a point about beetle juice being the villain. He's not supposed to be sympathetic. But I think the his actions ARE supposed to be comedic and funny. He's basically a used car salesman. The problem is that he spends the movie molesting women, and, ultimately, wants to assault an underage girl. With that context, with the way the movie is framed, I still think its problematic in many ways.

[@godofpencils01]

So, this is a big 'kind of, sort of' from me. Narratively, Bettlegeuse is meant to be the antagonist and the happy ending comes from his defeat. However, he is also meant to be endearing, in the way that loveable jerk characters like Homer Simpson are meant to be endearing. If you describe his actions literally, Bettlegeuse is a murderous misogynist con artist/attempted statutory rapist. But is that how you would describe him after watching the film? You're more likely to describe him as a wacky, eccentric rascal. See how many people still consider it Michael Keatons best role. Most of what he does is cartoonish violence and sexual harassment, a la Pepe le Pew or Tom and Jerry. He feels like a live action cartoon character, which makes it easy to minimise the consequences of his actions. Yes, he is still consistently framed as in the wrong. But he's also the main draw of the movie, the fun starts when he is on screen. So yeah, it's kind of a muddle condemnation.

[@kissarococo2459]

It's a Negan-character. Horrible person who happens to be likable and people shoehorn him to be "reformed" later on despite it not making much sense psychologically.

[@martinwoldman3541]

The characterization of Edward Scissorhands -- a man with the emotional maturity of a child -- being sexually assaulted by a woman as "liberated sexuality" is particularly noxious. He "just walks away" because he doesn't want to be assaulted anymore.

[@ACTionismeforever]

THANK YOU

[@orgywithpigs6]

lol oh my god could you imagine the reaction if the genders had been swapped?

[@RPG_Angie]

Yeah, the sexual-assaulty atmosphere of that scene was pretty hard to miss. If a male character continued putting the moves on a female character despite her lack of positive reactions, there'd be no debate whatsoever that he's a creep.

[@tombrown407]

Yeah, kinda yikesy take there Maggie

[@thesuperherosoul]

@@tombrown407 I don’t necessarily think that Maggie was trying to say that specific scene or her advances towards Edward in specific were a result of “sexual liberation”. I think there are a couple of times that it is implied that she invites the attention and company of men who aren’t her husband hence the “sexual liberation” of the character. I think Maggie’s point still stands that Burton thinks the ultimate downfall of the pure, wholesome suburban life is women owning their sexuality because not only does it tarnish the image of the traditional nuclear family but implies that that kind of “liberation” is bad because it’s predatory thereby upholding the status quo.

[@ElVindicto]

Can't wait for when Charlie and the Proletariat Extrajudicial Reclamation of the Chocolate Factory finally hits the cinemas next year

[@OlleLindestad]

Hey, if you're into that sort of thing there's Wild Wood, which is apparently a... socialist fan sequel? ... of The Wind in the Willows, in which all the working-class weasels and stoats rise up and occupy Toad Hall. No, really. I haven't read it, but it has good reviews!

[@aspektx]

I love your idea of Charlie and the Workers Sieze the Means of Production.

[@TheWarrrenator]

Maybe they can grow GMO cocoa bean trees that magically grow in Iowa so that the chocolate production doesn’t require slave labor and a heavy carbon footprint.

[@jamelwest2586]

After hearing Burton's comments concerning what type of people don't fit his "aesthetic" I must say this critique aged very well.

[@stevejames5580]

OHHH HES A “RACIST” (citation needed) BURN BURN BURNNNNNN!!! you’re just gonna ignore the fact (just like Maggie because she forgets Google exists) that Burton made a whole film with an entire AAPI cast before that thing was popular.

[@maduinargentus5878]

...it seems from how the people reacted when asked about Beetlejuice that they completely missed that the title character is the movie's de facto villain.

[@Arcanewolf86]

Maduin Argentus - Seems the author of the video misses that point too.

[@thiaamak]

@@Arcanewolf86 she went into that movie expecting betelegeuse to be a lovable character because that's what everyone else told her

[@williamchamberlain2263]

I think that a lot of people watched it stoned, drunk, or both.

[@suides4810]

Jason Liartis yes, I think thats the problem here. I also thought that Edward is going to be a cute movie but it was just freaking bizarre.

[@silenceisdistance]

and the very fact that it went on to become an animated series, not to mention the toys and how they were marketed, only prove how and why that interpretation isn't an outlier

[@BananaBLACK]

I always considered, the movie version of, Beetlejuice the villain. It was the cartoon the changed him into the anti-hero.

[@djstarsign]

He was the representation of the id. I haven’t seen the film in ages but even as a child, he was a character that was a last resort because he was mayhem incarnate. The ghost couple were willing to put up with his awfulness if it meant getting their house back and resting in peace. I thought the whole point of the story was about the happy, boring dead couple who loved each other and wanted the annoying living humans out. I always thought of the few Burton film as a fun, cute, overly stylized but superficially enjoyable. I think it’s others who viewed him as a quirky filmmaker and saw in him what they wanted. I guess sympathizing with the ghosts and not the humans was a subversion of the kind of ghost stories we’ve been indoctrinated with, but it also felt like a movie aimed at really young teens, the same teens who loved Ghostbuster and Back to the Future. There was a nice visual reference to Ivan’s Childhood in Edward Scissorhands, but suburban mall shopping teens tend to be clueless of Tarkovsky’s work. I still enjoy the first Pee Wee movie and Beetlejuice the way I enjoy a nice surgery treat. So I think her analysis of Burton’s movies being candy are pretty accurate.

[@superv5006]

Yas!!

[@jacobdriscoll8276]

Tim Burton is the Hot Topic version of David Lynch? Sure, that checks out.

[@videodromeTVversion]

So, Hot Topic becomes by extension a living monument to the insensitive portrayal of Lydia Deets' character in _Beetlejuice_ ?

[@kingrix]

@@videodromeTVversion That also checks out.

[@Feamelwen]

Makes sense. Say what you will about his vision and art, Lynch's world has never been successfully sanitized, the highly divisive third season of Twin Peaks proving that he only got weirder with age.

[@freewilliam93]

But just not as talented but hey hot topic sure did change after emo, amiright?

[@zeltzamer4010]

Terry Gilliam always seemed like a closer analogue to me.

[@MrTwentington]

seeing Winona in the ice dance with that music as a child was so beautiful to me because I thought that was what an angel must look like- but you raise a really good point. It would have been so much more beautiful to end with maybe having the granddaughter saying something like "you loved him even though he didn't look normal maybe he still loves you too" and then she wanders into the snow and they hug. That would have been beautiful

[@alexbennet4195]

Um, sure, if you’re desperate for that Hollywood happy ending ig…? But it’s not supposed to be a “happy ending”. It’s sad - or, at the very least, bittersweet. Because the suburban society as it is doesn’t accept him

[@vicenteortegarubilar9418]

For me , even as a child, beetlejuice was a manifestation of everything horrible about inmaturity, a selfish guy that doesn't know personal space or boundaries, is proud of his discrimination against the living, doesn't take anything seriously and enjoys the humiliation of others. For the most part the things I didn't like from other kids and didn't like about myself, even if sometimes I was excited about his enormous powers (that were basically annoy everyone). And he is defeated by a normal couple that at the start of the film want to have a son and be a family and at the end they are able to create that with their new adoptive daughter Lydia who they decide to protect from this edgy kid's fantasy, and to do that, they gave up their own desires of kicking the Deetz out of the house. And for me as a kid that was a positive message about how a safe family environment could defeat the worst parts of inmaturity. And it also could be read as if the director, Burton, was finally trying to defeat those feelings that wanted to annoy his parents by accepting his life with them as something good. But that is just an opinion and the idea I have about the film as a kid. The video is really good and it makes me want to watch all the films of Burton to see how my vision of them have changed or evolve.

[@XXamphivena]

like a bill murray character but it's been in the back of the fridge for months and is growing mold

[@spikeep6141]

Dream Delirium We Discordians Must Stick Apart - You are clearly an adherent to the Hereies of the LunaticFringe and I therefore Hereby Do Excommunicate Thee - He’s a Foolkiller - he was *NOT*Defeated by The Lutzes, because his *INTENT* was to force them to empower *themsleves* sufficiently to the point where they no longer *needed* him, or his help. A Hero is, *BY DEFINITION*, specifically a *DEAD* Man Who, sometime in The Past made a Substantive Contribution to the Founding of a Great City, Nation or Civilisation - You HAVE to be Dead to be a Hero.... And This is Why, Prior to Last Year, *Luke Skywalker* was *NOT* a Hero, and Darth Vader *WAS....*

[@spikeep6141]

Dream Delirium “It’s Just a Little Something I *ALWAYS* Say....” So -- Pleased to Meet You..... You Already Know My Face..... kzbin.info/www/bejne/qHnLl2yXnpiHr9k

[@dadeleemurphy85]

Vincente, you describe Democrats pretty well.

[@revspikejonez]

@@dadeleemurphy85 real mature.

[@drmoonrat]

"Edward Scissorhands" on the surface is a satire of the artifice of suburban life, but deeper than that, it was Burton's attempt to illustrate how he felt growing up as an awkward, nearly non-verbal teen. . . In essence, Tim Burton was expressing what it felt like growing up on the Autism Spectrum, but not having been diagnosed formally, Edward Scissorhands was the only way he could express it. Edward is naive, verbally self conscious, literal minded and can't understand other people's intentions. . . he also has an aversion to touch, which is represented in him being unable to touch others because of his hands. The whole movie serves as an expression of Autism Spectrum Disorder, even unintentionally, all being inspired by Tim Burton's own experience. I'd say, if you're really looking for meaning in Burton's movies, you're have a hard time finding it on the surface level. Not that his movies have too much depth, but it doesn't seem like you're really looking that hard, just judging the surface

[@hamesmck5061]

So glad someone brought this up.

[@nicole-sz3sj]

indeed

[@sidneycitrus]

I agree--I watched Edward Scissorhands for the first time a couple days ago, and I got the impression that it could be an allegory for autism too. That message becomes pretty evident when you see Edward's inventor tell him to smile at a joke when he didn't react "correctly," and him forcing an awkward smile afterwards. Or when Peg's husband gives him that 4-answer hypothetical question about stealing, only to berate Edward when he gets it "wrong." It's the feeling of having to walk on eggshells to get a good reaction out of people. Admittedly I'm not autistic, but I think anyone can empathize with his situation at least a little bit. The film felt pretty personal beyond the zany premise of having scissors for hands, so I'm surprised that for a video called "Looking For Meaning in Tim Burton's Movies," Maggie didn't seem to pick up on that.

[@wendynerd1199]

Burton's Alice in Wonderland is a perfect example of a guy who flirts with feminism and botches it. It is Game of Thrones level of false feminism.

[@DarkPrject]

Game of Thrones does false feminism better. I assume anyway. I haven't watched and will not watch season 8. Point is they can't really fuck it up any worse than Tim Burton did.

[@e.s.r5809]

@@DarkPrject No... no... they literally had Sansa say that she was grateful for being bartered and raped because otherwise she'd have been weak...

[@DarkPrject]

@@e.s.r5809 un- fucking -believable.

[@imaroughgempdx]

You mean how the whole opening is about her making her own decisions and the whole plot being her cowed into fulfilling a prophecy preordained for her?

[@mediocre_violist]

1 day ago I tried to respond to your comment and realized that I read it wrong and my response made no sense, lol. It's about 3AM where I am, I need to sleep.

[@ed_merino]

So we can ultimately boil down Burton's work as romanticized nostalgia (or sugar-coated nostalgia, to keep with the analogy). But funny how even when you talked about how Tim commodifies his memories of childhood (and we the audience commodify our memories of his films) you didn't talk about Big Fish, a movie specifically about choosing to build our own sugar-coated memories.

[@CharleyDeppner]

RE: Beetlejuice: I'm pretty sure- at least in the film- Beetlejuice is the villain, hence he's horrible, creepy, etc. Maybe it's bad marketing or the subsequent animated series to blame for anyone thinking he's anything other than bad, unlikeable, etc. Great video regardless.

[@xmlthegreat]

That's the point the video makes. People, in the majority somehow only remember this general impression of Beetlejuice's character as wacky, not evil.

[@unluckycloverfield4316]

Yeah I'm mean Beetlejuice being an ass is the whole point, why is this a video? People like the character cus hes interesting. Also, a lot of people could be remembering him from the cartoons.

[@9999ping]

@@unluckycloverfield4316 if all you took from this video is "Beetle Juice bad" that's tragic.

[@unluckycloverfield4316]

@@9999ping it's not I'm only addressing the comment above... I'm not writing a comprehensives response to the entire video

[@Jaspertine]

If there's one thing that strikes me about Burton now looking back on his films, it's that all or at least most of his movies are essentially about himself. There's always a character, not always the protagonist, who acts as a stand in for Burton and represents how he sees himself in relation to the world around him. Some of his movies are enhanced from knowing this, most are not.

[@askewman37]

The difference between Bettlejuice the cartoon and the movie always struck me as really weird. I've still got a soft spot in my heart for both for different reasons but it's pretty weird that the undeniable villain, the rapey, vile, horrible, attempted murder ghost, becomes the wacky protagonist of an animated kids show that lasted for 4 seasons.

[@cosmosblue772]

They did that a lot back in the day, make kid shows from movies that werent kid friendly (though Beetlejuice was rate PG...For some reason). RoboCop got a cartoon adaptation

[@YTDeepshock]

I wish we JUST got the cartoon and there was a way to unexist the movie without also doing the same to that.

[@thepassingstatic6268]

Robocop got the same treatment. I'm assuming that was the style at the time

[@7rollface]

Man, I never really put too much thought into Burton films, but there was something that never quite sat right about them for me, and you've articulated it. Because my overriding memory of Beetlejuice from when I was a kid was that I could never understand why in order to be happy Lydia had to stop being a goth. And why that would be the desired endpoint for a film that's so obviously aimed at goths. You're right - it's because Burton is actually about conformity and reinforcing the status quo.

[@KevinCow]

I don't think an auteur necessarily means someone's work is great, just that they have a distinctive vision and style and they're good at getting a whole team to produce that specific vision and style. Lindsay Ellis has a great video on how even Michael Bay could be considered an auteur in her multi-part series on why the Transformers movies are so bad. Great video, though. That was just one thing that kept popping up that I didn't really agree with.

[@casir.7407]

tim burton is actually considered one of the vulgar auteurs, which is not only super appropriate, its also a very good modern way of looking at the fascinating phenomenon of auteurs

[@SpoonyBard88]

I think her point in the video is that some people equate "auteur" with "good." I mean, she literally used the voice of James Rolfe, a man with the critical capacity of a child, to say the word for her. People like him are the target audience, people who just want candy.

[@daylilyanimation8939]

You: Auteur doesn't necessarily mean great it just means a unique vision... Me: Ohhh, you're talking about Jean-Luc Godard. You: ...like Michael Bay. Me: Oh, yeah, him to. Love Lindsay Ellis btw.

[@kostajovanovic3711]

@@SpoonyBard88 wow, that was a punch

[@sarahwarnock2707]

Umm Edward was sexually assulted by the "sexually liberated" neighbor and all the other neibhbors were framed in the negative bc they all wanted something f him and made a spetical of him. Their lives were boring and he brought in the "flavor" they craved. They didn't care about him

[@melaniemanning2462]

Absolutely. They didn't want him, just the quirky fun distraction for their conforming, house-wife nightmare.

[@testsubject5089]

I think this analysis is interesting but missing context from the 80s 1. Beetlejuice was always a villain. However there was a trend in the 80s of making kid toys from R-rated movies that are actually innapropiate and got criticized even then but were totally a thing. See the Robocop cartoon or the fact that a Robocop cartoon even exists. Same thing with Predator and other violent things. The doll should be considered in that context of desperately trying to make a quick buck. 2. Tim Burton was never considered a serious director. Good to look at, yes. Entertaining, yes. But I thought everyone already knew, even in the 80s, that he was Hot Topic edgy before there was even a Hot Topic. I mean, true rebellious rebels dont get handed the Batman blockbuster. I dont think he's a hack but its like being offended that McDonald's is no longer fine dining when it never was. Of course the writers didn't care about an accurate description of depression, it was a big flashy summer blockbuster from the go. Its only now that people seem to want more meaning out of what was always a popcorn film 3. I always thought Ed dressing like a woman to the Baptist was him having a nervous breakdown in a low key way not necessarily the actions of a complete idiot 4. Is Ed Scissorhands basically an immortal child? Would he be able to process that all the people he knew are dead or dying? 5. Dark Shadows and the Alice movies are so bad but it's only doing what he always did, but more tired. 6. Man Tim Burton as Hot Topic avatar is so apt. All his stuff is for suburban kids playing at edgy. It was never authentic edge so to speak

[@cassandracole4589]

so, i'm inclined to say that her framing dismisses points 1 and 2 almost immediately. She'd never seen it, and that's a plausible starting position for criticism. Starting with a fresh perspective, having only heard about it second hand. Beetlejuice's cultural context in the 80s isn't really important when you consider that in the 30 years since, Burton's work has been elevated to high art. You can make an argument that a lot of critics don't take him seriously, but like, you can make that argument about literally any creative body. Her framing is 1.) I, a person in 2018, have never watched Tim Burton movies. and 2.) In the years since these films came out, regardless of Burton's not-serious film making outlook who isn't respected by specific critics, plenty of critics and a LOT of general consumers like Burton. Whether he likes it or not, there is an entire two generations of film goers influenced by Burton's work and consider him an artistic visionary. This is why people say everything is inherently political. Tim Burton might authentically believe he is espousing a largely messageless spectacle, but he doesn't have much control over what people take away from his films now that he's a director reference point. 3 is a matter of perspective. I see yours, but he definitely came off as checked out all the time, kind of a cartoony doofus, which utterly undercut even bringing up his gender non-conformity. I'm not saying they ideally would have skipped it because ideally they'd have made an effort to take it seriously, but given how badly they did it, they maybe should have skipped it.

[@spencexxx]

Oh, surprise... no "heart" from the uploader.

[@spencexxx]

@@cassandracole4589 How is it 'valid criticism' to criticize something you DON'T KNOW ABOUT?

[@cassandracole4589]

@@spencexxx Man, I love having to reread an essay post from six months ago. Because she made that part of the functional framing. The year was 2018 and she'd never seen beetlejuice, and the cultural miasma suggests that it's an instant classic. If someone had cultural context, they might know that beetlejuice was an unqualified villain or that Tim Burton is an all sweets no substance directing hack with a couple classics and a whole lot of heavily qualified 'okay's under his belt. Buuuuuut not everyone got into film history in 1994. And even if she did, there's a lot of film history in any given year, and tim burton is an acquired taste even when his films aren't stinking garbage. She frames it, if I remember the video from a year ago that Burton had just... slipped past. So coming into it in 2018, with the context of a blank, spoiler free slate and 30 something years of people drooling over this director, one would have expectations. Those expectations further confounded by the presence of the cartoon, which was my introduction to the character until i was 16. So when I went from the cartoon, where he is Daggit, a rude but otherwise decent person, to the movie, where he's forcing a child into marriage and is murdering at least 2 if not more people and everyone frames him as the loveable wackadoo hero who really has a point. And that's. Pretty jarring. Especially considering how often all that background isn't there. A harsh reality of so called uninformed critique is that one doesn't have the labrynthine history to learn. Often, when you're presented something, you don't know what lead up to it. It's like when people talk about rap or country being vapid and pointless, and while a segment might be, that person is woefully ignorant of years of context, and so someone who claims to be 'eclectic about music you know except for hip hop', it's... kinda bullshit. It's like watching a super hero movie and the villain has taken his motivation for genocide from obsession through love, to some detatched sociopathic scheme regarding population control and resource distribution, and people praise it as being deep and logical for however long it's been since that miserable blue fuck showed up in iron man 6, the beginning of the death of iron man. People who have all the cultural backstory walk around like 'genocide man who's bad at math' is somehow deep. Beetlejuice, the way folks talk about him, makes a lot of sense and s the anti hero we deserve. But he sucks. And without context, out of hand? The movie sucks. And all the back pedaling 'you don't get it because' bullshit is just that.

[@aspektx]

This turn towards Burton as auteur was already happening in the mid 90s. I'm not sure she is jumping the gun on that assessment.

[@sarahb1862]

Yeah... He's the antagonist... I guess it's a bummer if people forgot that when describing the movie but he's not the cool guy. He IS the inappropriate awful sleezeball that no one likes.

[@sudevsen]

He's the antagonist in the way Tyler Dirden us the antagonist - they are written to have colorful personalities and feel irreverent thus becoming more loved by audiences. Also she Rivk Sanchez

[@amnoirgg8563]

Yeah he’s not the good guy, like no shit. He’s terrible and sometimes people like a villain.

[@casualdecade]

Seriously I was about to check out her other videos but this is like a parody of woke culture rediscovering and misunderstanding every basic thing they find lmao

[@natkatmac]

Even the screencaps she includes explicitly state "The movie is a classic" and"I love Keaton's performance" and "He's a fantastic antagonist" I honestly don't know how she got 'cute, fun, quirky main character' from the responses.

[@lhvy5066]

@@casualdecade nah you're just a male with a tiny smol brain

[@ShirDeutch]

How can anyone remember Beetlejuice as anything other than a creepy villain? In the third act where he turns into that spider thing (an image which gave me nightmares as a child), he is purposefully portrayed as the bad guy. When Adam and Barabara's faces melt off (again, young me -> scarred for life) before Lydia decides to reject Beetlejuice and save the day, everything - the music, the framing, the lighting - screams Beetlejuice = BAD. Which is why that cartoon gave me serious whiplash. It made no sense whatsoever for Lydia and Beetlejuice to be friends all of the sudden having seen the movie. At the age of ten, I didn't really understand how movie and TV studios work or the decision-making process behind media I consumed, but that sort of thing really bothered me. (Still watched the show regularly, though).

[@tripsplat]

(Apologies in advance: this turned into an essay. Whoops.)I totally agree with you, but I think a lot of the way Beetlejuice is remembered has to do with what was more "acceptable" in mainstream 80s media. Beets is totally a sleazy creep from the beginning, but like Maggie says, it's played for laughs. Him repeatedly grabbing and kissing Barbara, or feeling up the dismembered legs in the waiting room isn't portrayed as "sexual assault" as much as it is "obnoxious behavior," and that's a symptom of the 80s more than anything else. For context: A lot of coming-of-age movies from the 80s and 90s have male protagonists pulling stunts that are supposed to come off as charming, but are basically sexually assault (the geek having sex with the drunk, passed out prom queen who ends up liking it in "Sixteen Candles", the lifeguard tricked into kissing a kid via CPR being momentarily angry, later smiling at him, and eventually marrying and having lots of kids with him in "The Sandlot," the scene in which the girl unknowingly undresses and masturbates in front of a webcam in "American Pie," pretty much ALL of "Revenge of the Nerds," etc). When people think back on those movies, they remember that those characters are lovable scamps. The boys committing the "lighthearted" sexual assault in those movies are protagonists, and the girls in those situations always end up happy/appreciative of it in the end. The audience is supposed to relate to those boys, and fantasize about being able to do what they see in the movies. It is VERY obvious now how that's fucked up, and you often hear about those classic, feel-good, coming-of-age movies not holding up now. People won't remember every detail of a movie they liked years ago, but they'll remember that they laughed at it, and they'll fondly remember the characters that they thought were funny until they re-watch it. (Side-note; if you wanna see an 80s teen movie that DOES hold up, also stars Winona Ryder writing suicide notes, and is INCREDIBLY aesthetically pleasing, the dark comedy "Heathers" is one of my FAVORITES. :^) ) The biggest difference between Beetlejuice and the examples listed above is that Beets is understood as sleazy and creepy by the other characters, while the boys are eventually accepted as "lovable scamps". The audience is still trained to laugh at what Beetlejuice is doing - it's still a "joke" seeing a woman react to being felt up, and him getting slapped and pushed away is just an alternate punchline. Plus, after he's defeated, Beetlejuice is in that waiting room with a comically tiny shrunken head and high squeaky voice - the movie ends with him being removed as a threat but still up to his old tricks, so the audience is still supposed to laugh at him at the very end. He may not be lovable, but he's still a "scamp" as far as the movie is concerned. I think a good contrast is Yzma from "Emperor's New Groove" - she's CLEARLY the villain, she's doing something cruel every time she's on screen, we are reminded again and again that she is evil and ruthless, but she's also funny the entire time, and by the end of the movie, she's not a threat anymore and we are laughing at her well-earned misfortune. It actually makes sense to remember her as an awesome and hilarious antagonist, and that movie holds up VERY well. Even Hades from Disney's "Hercules" or Iago the parrot from "Aladdin" fall into that "lovable bad guy with great jokes and awful morals" category. It's pretty easy to group Beetlejuice in that same category if you haven't seen it in a while and don't fully remember just how bad he got. Again, I totally agree with you! Beetlejuice is a total creep from beginning to end, I just think that people remembering him fondly has a lot to do with what people thought was funny/acceptable in the 80s. You clearly knew better, and I just got carried away on this keyboard! :^)

[@boobysr]

I genuinely don't care about the "problematic" things beetlejuice does, because he's supposed to be the villain anyway...what's not clicking? The depictions of sexual harassment are not overly graphic or aggressive, they're as campy and heightened as the rest of the movie. What stunned me rewatching was burton's flippancy towards suicide (so, so many jokes about suicide in this) despite having a suicidal main character. It was pretty hypocritical and sad. Also i try to forget that the actor that played lydia's father turned out to be a pedophile, which makes every movie he's done (ferris bueller, stuart little) REALLY uncomfortable

[@boobysr]

Also i love all the different versions of beetlejuice, so i'm a bit biased. It's my childhood movie, and i get that watching it for the first time, people might find a lot of things distasteful. And i like that they soften the character up for the cartoon and the musical. It makes him more likeable (and marketable) and less like the scary monster he was in the original movie.

[@ah-sh9dw]

making the sexual assault campy is my issue with it. It's a horrible thing that isn't taken seriously enough in real life, making it some goofy thing to laugh at normalizes that attitude and feels dismissive. I love the games of thrones book and even though the sexual assault is way more severe in them I wasnt as bothered by it because the books treated it seriously

[@ShirDeutch]

@@ah-sh9dw That's interesting because the sexual violence is something I mostly didn't pick up on when I was a kid, probably because it was played for laughs. I feel like that's also a reoccurring thing in Burton's work in general - like the scene in Batman Return where The Penguin bites a guy's nose off really shocked me as a kid and will forever live in my mind, but when rewatching it I also noticed that just moments before that, he make an obscenely sexual remark towards some women, and it almost goes entirely unaddressed.

[@wasd____]

Edward Scissorhands was a very harsh criticism of suburban white culture. This culture seems accepting of Edward only because it's so obsessively focused on being publicly harmonious and non-confrontational that it represses most of its inhabitants, leaving them emotionally out-of-touch with themselves until the ways they really feel and what they really think and want festers like toxic pus. They drove Edward out because, ultimately, what many of them really want isn't to genuinely accept and co-exist with 'others,' but to ruthlessly exploit them - sexually, for financial gain, or simply to mold him into their image of good suburban citizenship and thereby perpetuate their own self-congratulatory delusion about how "accepting" and "nice" they are to everyone.

[@WildSableye]

so suburban housewives are raping people who are different or... i gotta say it's a real stretch to pin this as a metaphor, or any of burton's films as metaphors - when they are intrinsically about nothing.

[@standardworkaround]

She didn't realise this because it was mocking her.

[@WildSableye]

@@standardworkaround FJSJKFHSF yes, Maggie Mae Fish, noted suburban bigot

[@AliciaB.]

I stopped watching the vid when she started basically calling Burton misogynistic for including an openly horny woman as part of his criticism of suburbia... a) the character would still be relevant even if she wasn't abusive, as her intense attraction for such an unusual person could reflect the deep boredom of her life, and b) she is OBVIOUSLY taking advantage of him ! It's made very clear from the beginning of the film that Edward has a child-like psyche and has pretty much everything yet to learn about society, people, and their intentions. Hell, she wouldn't even have been able to lure him at the back of the shop & undress in front of him if it weren't for his naivety. For all intents and purposes, he is a child and she was about to basically rape him. Her WHOLE character screams manipulative, shallow and disingenuine. She doesn't give a fluff about what _he_ wants, the unilateral nature of the attraction is completely irrelevant to her. She is _turned_ _on_ by his cluelessness. Imagine if the roles were reversed ! If a 35-40 year old man lured Edwina Scissorhands in his garden shed or whatever and undressed in front of her... Everyone would agree that guy isn't supposed to be viewed positively. No mentally stable guy would then go on KZbin to say something along the lines of : 'wEll SoRrY yOu CaN't dEaL wItH ThE fAcT thAt mEn HaVe A sEx DrIvE 😒' In my opinion that character illustrates well 2 things about her community : how normative and unexciting it is and how it doesn't erase people's inner darkness & toxic traits but only conceals them, allowing them to fester under the surface until something truly new & unexpected - Edward - occurs & reveals what's underneath this whole act.

[@WildSableye]

@@AliciaB. okay i had a long fucking comment that accidentally got deleted so asjdkhskjhdksd so this is attempt 2. there's a long-held belief in white society, and specifically suburbia, that women who enjoy casual sex are depraved, and failures as housewives. the "cougar" archetype pits these "lonely" women as preying on teenage boys and the like - and usually for laughs. but no, women who smoke cigarettes, have fraught relationships with their husbands - or even more scandalous, no husband at all, and enjoy nights on the town where they can bring back a sexual partner they don't intend to see again, are not sexually depraved nor assaulters on the regular. the continual depiction of these characters in that light is merely a symptom of suburbia's need to emphasize chastity, faithfulness, and marriage in its female subjects - and shun and gossip about those who fit outside of that. but you'll certainly see a lot of depictions along the lines of Edward Scissorhands in american television. it's purely a projection by white cisheteronormative standards believing female sexuality to be depraved. female on male sexual assault DOES occur, and it shouldn't be taken for laughs. but saying the example in Edward Scissorhands is a purely innocent portrayal of just that, isn't accurate. the film doesn't care about sexual assault, it cares about negatively portraying the sexuality of women in the way it has always been negatively portrayed. no different than the era's continual depiction of lesbians as sexually assaulting women. and in both cases, so long as they don't have to confront the actual systemic constants of where sexual assault culture comes from, they're fine to laugh at it as they have for generations.

[@labyrinthwomb]

You have a lot of great points about his work as a whole, but I have to totally disagree with you about Beetlejuice! I do not have the same weird nostalgia that you're describing for the character - to me the character is a great villain. He's the devil on your shoulder trying to tempt you to do bad things, but is absolutely dangerous and horrifying when released. I enjoy watching him the way I love watching Javert or President Snow. I also had a different reading of Lydia as a character, and absolutely felt for her. I think your comments @19:15 are belittling - she had terrible parents and no support structure, then she has friends and people who care about her, and her depression improved. To insist that depression can't be influenced by external factors (such as low income, social isolation, etc.) is ridiculous. It does seem that the writer had his head up his ass, but Winona Ryder plays her so well that I absolutely empathize with her and her struggles. I actually love the idea that the end is a happy suburban home structure where the parents just happen to be dead. Yes, it's a popcorn movie, but not as bad as you're making it out to be.

[@gavinhowe9897]

dude, this puts so much into words which I've felt inside but never understood. This doesn't in anyway "ruin" my favorite childhood movies, but gives me a narrative and outline for the aspects which I passively ignored or didn't understand. If anything it gives me hope to see reimaginings of tim burton's art style, but with a more progressive and purposeful meaning behind the story.

[@Palmieres]

Couple of things: The "sexy" neighbor is a sexual predator. Edward has the mind of a child, he doesn't understand what she wants, and she definitely knows that. She's not liberated, she's taking advantage of what is essentially a minor. So this isn't vilifying anyone else except someone who was already a villain to begin with. Don't forget she tells everyone he attacked _her_ , so let's not even pretend this was about sexual liberation. I think you got Ed Wood (the movie) all wrong. It's not a biopic at all, it's not supposed to be realistic or too faithful to what actually happened. It's more of a reimagining, and the movie definitely does not end up in a happy note. There's text imposed on the last images telling of what really happened to Wood - and this didn't have to be there, it was a choice by the movie makers to include it. It was purposely placed there as juxtaposition of reality and film. I also don't see Depp's Ed Wood as a silly man who has no clue of what's going on around him. He knows exactly what is happening at all times, he just refuses to give up. There's a reason why the movie ends up where it did, in a tone of fantasy and hopefulness, and not with an alcoholic directing porn, which is what really happened to Wood. As for Beetlejuice... Come on, the character is supposed to be a disgusting creep. That's exactly why he was banished and the lady who gives the couple the book warns them to not even think of resorting to him for help. Look, I'm not a huge fan of Tim Burton, I just like some stuff he made in a different, less sickening sweet style than we were used to. But this analysis seems to be coming from a place of some confusion. Burton lost his peculiarity long ago. His weirdness factor became much less relevant as time went on. But some stuff still holds up.

[@Jimmy1982Playlists]

🎯💯 Absolutely spot-on! I'll always love his earlier work - especially _Ed Wood, Edward Scissorhands_ & _Beetlejuice..._ It's been so long since I saw his two Batman films, but Keaton will always be my favorite Batman, and the set design is masterclass, with those amazing worlds he created. The later films haven't interested me much, unfortunately... _Sleepy Hollow_ was the last one I remember really enjoying. Edit: actually I really liked _Frankenweenie_ lol

[@Rfp601]

When I saw Edward Scissorhands for the first time the visual style of the suburbs felt like the beginning to a satire that just never happens.

[@MeredithHagan]

Other than the deep-seeded lifelong fear of bridges that “Beetlejuice” gave me, I think you’re giving the titular character too much credit. He is neither the hero nor the main character, he’s that devil you realize too late you didn’t need to make a deal with. That’s the whole point - the married ghosts think they need to haunt the Deets out of their home instead of co-existing, and only after they call on Betelgeuse do they realize what a horrible mistake it was, especially of how he treats Lydia, who they’ve become very fond of. Trust me, I do NOT like Tim Burton’s work of essentially the last 20 years, to say he’s a one-trick hack is an understatement, but I think you analyzed “Beetlejuice” incorrectly.

[@JoanieDoeShadow]

Exactly.

[@Arcanewolf86]

I’d maybe give the movie even more credit but thank you for pointing out a major flaw in this essay. Beetlejuice has to be summoned and he makes Faustian deals with mortals (dead or alive). He’s literally a demon or The Devil! So anyone freaking about the character’s problematicness should be reminded he’s chaotic evil personified in this story.

[@psychedlicsouljam1995]

She's just another whiny, offended idiot. What's up with these people making half hour long opinions nobody wants to hear about?

[@jakepinkphloid]

Well said

[@mirmalchik]

@@psychedlicsouljam1995 "nobody wants to hear about" you know you don't have to click on every single youtube video, right? go outside, read a book, jesus

[@OctopusGrift]

I think Burton gets a pass from a lot of people because he was the first person who explores a dark ascetic. A 8 year old probably isn't going to watch Blue Velvet. While his movies are not ideologically rebellious they are visually rebellious (especially to kids who are watching lots of Disney movies.) Most kids just remember that his movies are really different from other things they have seen, but not necessarily how they were different. Then as adults when they realize how shallow his work is they either lose interest in him or pretend that it is just that his recent work is bad.

[@dandynet627]

4:45 Danger presented in discussed scene was not "female sexuality" or boobs, but sexual abusement. "Sexy house wife" is abusing Edward, and that is the reason of his escape.

[@OblivionHelena]

Yeah I felt the demonisation of her character was because she objectified Edward. She didn't see him as a real person but a weird quirky sex object. And she felt that by sleeping with him, she'd gain some cool points in her community for being with someone so strange and out there.

[@SeymourDisapproves]

Idk, people who make a point to villainize the sexual entities in their movies aren't often in the business of depicting that person's sexuality as healthy. Would the distinction between portraying sexual liberation and portraying sexual abuse really matter all that much to someone who views any overt or subversive displays of sexuality as being inherently bad and repulsive? Because of their personal disgust, I don't think it's impossible to assume that type of person would think that consensual sex acts that they happen to see as maladaptive and sexual assault are interchangeable.

[@OblivionHelena]

@@SeymourDisapproves I wouldn't go as far as to assume they would see the two as interchangeable but you make a good point. I'm probably being a bit too generous on Tim Burton's thought process here. I still think the focus on the demonising was on the fact she objectified and tried to assault Edward. But it's possible there's a vein of distrust around sexually confident characters here too. Which is also quite yikes.

[@PlaylistGeneral]

This is a really interesting retrospective on Tim Burton, but I think you're missing the point on Ed Wood. He's absolutely depicted as an outsider artist - despite having a larger-than-life persona he's a social magnet for Hollywood outcasts and minorities, and he inadvertently pushes away anybody in any of society's 'in-groups' to the point that you know he'll never have a chance. The whole film is glazed in the thickest dramatic irony, because no matter how we convey Ed Wood as a person, he left a legacy of trash. So having him basically embody the persona of "work hard and have a good attitude and you'll succeed" makes the film darkly funny because it all feels like this dreamlike bubble that is SO close to bursting at any moment. Ed Wood embodies the Regan-ised spirit of capitalism SO HARD that normal people find it strange and offputting how disconnected from reality he is. It skewers the American vision of capitalism pretty hard and it's kinda poetic.

[@b4rbarbar]

I heavily disagree with your interpretation here (tho I do appreciate your comment!) My main gripe is with 'Ed Wood just left us a legacy of trash' and the inherent disrespect in choosing to basically ignore 90% of who Ed was (in Burton's movie he is just a wannabe director who cross dresses and like Maggie/Imogen said comes off looking super stupid, which is was not). If you're not even going to attempt to portray a very real (and only relatively recently dead) person as who he really was, just create your original character and in interviews or credits or whatever, say that you received a lot of inspiration from the life story of Ed Wood. The absolute worst for me is both the director and actor drawing from Ronald Reagan, who in real life would have loathed the real Ed Woods (and again, the real Ed Woods had 0 in common - be it in personality, beliefs or anything else - with Ronald Reagan). This last bit is straight up insulting a dead person by using his name and relative likeness and in said portrait, infusing one of the biggest lgbtq bigots into it. It's revolting imho. But given that it's been 2 years since your comment, lemme know if you see this and would like me to elaborate, since otherwise I'd just be arguing with myself haha

[@stupidGUID]

What if Tim Burton is like a gateway drug to more meaningful cinema. By being very consumable with a whiff of something deeper. Kids can wander in have fun and learn to yearn for something more only hinted at here.

[@Aster_Risk]

That's definitely something I agree with. I grew up watching him and got into John Waters and David Lynch in middle school. From there I just kept looking into more obscure stuff, midnight movies, NC-17 films. I think it's a good way to dip your toe into weird cinema and eventually end up in the deep end.

[@AceLM92]

I agree. I liked Tim Burton a lot in middle school and high school, however as somebody that is a film fan I do think his movies are weak on story and character in are more about the visuals. The best thing he did for me was get me to look up German expressionist films. However I still do enjoy Edward Scissorhands. Maybe Nostalgia or something more than that

[@tripsplat]

@@AceLM92 I mean, it's like Maggie said: his movies are candy. They're still enjoyable, and if you turn off your critical eye and suspend your disbelief, they're really comforting. I don't buy Oreos too often because I know damned well that they are the nutritional equivalent of trash... but when I buy them, I won't stop myself from eating them for breakfast three days in a row. Unrealistic as it is, the fantasy world in Edward Scissorhands - where authority figures are all just Mr. Rogers in a different costume, the suburban home owners' association doesn't seem to mind the visible deviation of a gray German Expressionist castle on a mountain in their neighborhood (HOAs are brutal), and Johnny Depp is a sweet well-intentioned manchild (instead of an abusive alcoholic manchild) - is nice to escape to from time to time.

[@mitchellhorton9382]

@@AceLM92 Alot of the "Tim Burton" things people remember just had him doing like visual consulting and concept art

[@outlawscar3328]

That has to be the most cherry-picked baseless interpretation of Edward Scissorhands I've ever heard in my life. How you point out the fact that the shot of the suburban home interior you showed is sterile and bland with Edward looking in wide eyed wonder- how did you miss that that's the joke? Look at all the negative space and jagged lines in the shot. Look at all the houses. Burton is portraying suburbia as homogenous, artificial and empty. The horny housewife isn't villainous because she has a sex drive it's because she can't accept rejection- the very thing Edward has to overcome at the end of the film. Taking the higher road in good faith. His rejection by the neighborhood is impactful because the neighbors are intially welcoming. They're phoney. Artificial. Welcoming on the outside but kind of hollow on the inside. You know, like their houses.

[@cynthiakeller6149]

She realy didnt give edward Scissorhands a chance.

[@nitehunter91]

@@cynthiakeller6149 I think she is lazy for not researching enough and for primally imposing her view over the film instead of first and properly analysing intent and results.

[@matildasmesses6507]

Your opinion is valid but I don’t agree with most of your criticism. I do agree that suburban sets is an indicator he wants the strange and gothic more accepted not rebelling. Also ed wood is my least favorite next to Charlie chocolate factory. Just because they were badly done and portrayed. And I agree that Betelgeuse is the truly creepy character of any burton movie because of the underlying sexual douche vibe. But I disagree that Betelgeuse is celebrated cause of a toy or child like qualities. The movie is celebrated because just like nightmare before Christmas and Edward Scissor hands it addresses adult issues in a more family friendly way. Even as a kid I knew Betelgeuse was a bad man. Also you missed the whole point of Edward scissor hands. The whole point was that most ‘normal’ people will accept the strange and unusual if it serves them an advantage. Like when he was doing peoples topiary, hair cuts, and being an Avon test subject. But when they are done with him they still think him a freak and when he no longer serves a purpose for them he is driven out of town mob style. It was also a nod to the classic tale of Frankenstein’s monster. If you really want to get to know burton on an intimate level and really admire his work honestly and openly I suggest you watch his film ‘Big Fish’ as much as I love his dark sets and boyish humor Big Fish is the serious side of burton. As serious as it gets. It strips away his dark love of gothic set design and costume as well as a kooky soundtrack and in place there is a southern folk lore tale of how family can be broken and only fixed by opening our minds and hearts to each other. It’s a movie about story telling and how all stories have an element of truth. And in a story the point is not to seek truth but to learn from it and enjoy the art of it.

[@jordanfiction]

I'm a HUGE tim burton fan, but this was definitely a cool look at a different angle of Burton. You brought up good points. I'm considering starting podcast about Burton, so its cool to hear someone for once bring up a more critical lens. Always good to approach a topic from both sides. Thanks :)

[@wickedcoolghost]

Great to see you putting stuff on KZbin again! But I think that anybody who watches Beetlejuice and thinks Beetlejuice is worth emulating missed the point of the film.

[@allybelair]

The direction of the character of Ed Wood as a caricature was a deliberate choice, as was ending the movie on a happy note. The whole point of the aesthetics of the film, along with all of the portrayals of the characters, was to make their movie like an Ed Wood film. Exaggerated acting, choppy edits, etc. Lots of biopics don't end their story where the subject ended theirs and in this case they wanted to have that optimistic attitude of an ending with him and Kathy's kind of "riding off into the sunset" romantic ending --which also is immediately undercut by the text they cut to that explains how the rest of the main characters lives actually played out from there. I like some of the points you made because there were some things I hadn't thought about before but a lot of this, at least for Ed Wood, seemed like a reach.

[@ravenfrancis1476]

It’s also entirely possible that the idea to make an Ed Wood biopic like an Ed Wood movie was a bad one. Ya ever think of that?

[@TheDude4077]

@@ravenfrancis1476 I think that's a completely valid point to make, but it's not really the point that's made in the video.

[@gwenlovesmovies]

THANK YOU!

[@doctorx3]

Comment from a friend, on the subject of David Lynch: "I'm sick of pretentious white guys trying to prove how woke they are about violence against women, by showing me endless depictions of violence against women."

[@echowoods7977]

@@lc6726 privilege

[@DeoMachina]

@@lc6726 Ok so I went and asked them like you said And they all said "Well could be worse, I could be black!" Because black homeless guys really do have it worse. You can't just act like only the single most privileged person on the planet can be said to have privilege over others, that's asinine.

[@shangc2781]

@@lc6726 You do remember how the start of this video was all about how Beetlejuice was sexually assaulting women and it being played for laughs?

[@shangc2781]

@@lc6726 okay I'm going to lay this out like I'm speaking to a toddler because either you have no practical reasoning skills or are deliberately obtuse: 1. Maggie started off this video showing how uncomfortable Beetlejuice made her feel because sexual assault was played for laughs. While she did go onto discuss race in Tim Burton films, the sexual assault was the thing that prompted the video initially. 2. She made a comparison between the work of Burton and David Lynch where she points out that in Lynch's work the sunny suburban facade has a dark underbelly and is a comment on the superficially of that whole 50s Americana attitude, while Burton appears to do a similar thing but never actually goes beyond aesthetics and in some ways re-enforces those Americana 50s attitudes 3. Doctor3x points out through quoting their friend that both Lynch and Burton do a similar thing; they pretend to engage on the topic of sexual violence but instead just end up portraying it in a way that's either seen as a joke (in Beetlejuice) or as vicariously titillating (in Blue Velvet). It's a way of having their cake and eating it too. 4. You come in and say "what does that have to do with race" because you seem to have only engaged with that part of the video, where in reality Maggie not only touched on the topic of race in Burton's work but sexism, mental health, queer theory and capitalism. It turns out other people can concentrate on more than one topic at once and while Doctor3x was not contributing to the discussion of race in this particular instance they were in fact engaging with other topics covered in this video. If you still don't get what is going on after I've broken it down to this level maybe you should just leave and let the grown ups talk

[@shangc2781]

@@lc6726 Oh, have a lovely day too sweetie! Considering you're so keen on debating people I hope one day you'll be able to read more than three paragraphs on a topic without throwing a tantrum. Like a toddler. Bye bye now, and have a good nap.

[@fireballninja01]

I've been depressed from a very young age, and so I thought Beetlejuice was about a comicalization of depression and it's external aggressors. I didn't realize it at a time, but I viewed Lydia as an escapist fantasy, where my fantasy didn't have roots but did have easy answers, and Beetlejuice as an escape to a world where people who caused harm didn't mean it, or their harm could be excused. Watching it when I was 7 or 9 made me feel like maybe my parents weren't my real parents, where someday I'd get to go to my real home with my real parents and listen to the Harry Belefonte music I loved and understand *why* I loved it. Not that my real parents were the white mom who sang Harry Belefonte awkwardly and the dad who looked at me with a grin when he said a cruelty as if it were a joke. I felt uneasy with the movie, but I didn't know why. Now I know it's because my escapist fantasy was counter to the escapist fantasy of the man who created it. Now I realize, my father wasn't just Beetlejuice in that movie. Burton was too. oh and RONALD REAGAN

[@Liboo52]

I know Beetlejuice is creepy, isn’t that why he becomes the ultimate the villain of the story?

[@redmage87]

One big thing to remember about Beetljuice is that he was literally a theme park walk-around mascot at Universal Studios in the 90s during the height of gross-out humor. He went from literally being a horrendous ghost-monster (that they actually watered down so the movie wouldn’t be rated X) to Farting Goofy.

[@hollandscottthomas]

I still think that Big Fish is his best film. Not without its issues, but the unreliable narrator makes for an interesting angle on spinning a story. Maybe because it doesn't feel like it's trying so hard to be "out there" in the same way that other Burton films do?

[@jonmcinturff7003]

Also interesting to note that Big Fish is a mediation on people's memory of their life and how that reflects in the stories they tell.

[@TheGeorgeD13]

That’s largely because it’s a John August film rather than a Tim Burton film. Tim Burton directed it to get the film made for his friend who wrote the script (he wouldn’t have gotten the film made without a big name attached). This is John August’s movie. He wrote it to work through the death of his father.

[@robinisomaa]

Eh, personal father-son relationship narratives are a dime a dozen (Burton does love his daddy issues). Without Ewan McGregor's performance, there wouldn't be much memorable about the film.

[@k.morningstar7983]

that movie's star was a dude stalked a woman and kind of "earned her affection" with blatant shows of attention-grabbing begging for affection from who didn't want him, just throwing that out even though this comment is 3 years old. i think *Ed Woods* is his best, great biopic. everything else he makes besides *Beetlejuice* is really not my style personally. oh, and *Batman* . i'm not a complete snob

[@becuaseimbored3481]

To be honest, Beetlejuice is supposed to be the villan of the movie, so him being gross in every conceivable way makes sense

[@TheSianFromAtlantis]

Thank God. I thought it was just me! I had a Kickstarter backer who paid for the "I'll write a film essay for you" tier and they asked for Sleepy Hollow. And it was the hardest thing I ever did.

[@AuspolExplained]

As a film major I really appreciate the perspective and depth of your film analysises. You're also really engaging in the way you talk and the rhythm and structure of your video essays (I've been working my way back through your channel) and I feel like I'm not just learning about film analysis in ways my degree didn't, but also how to create an effective video essay so that my own channel can become more engaging. Your channel is really good and I'm excited for your next installment of analysis on Zack Snyder.

[@yunikage]

You looked at the identical pastel boxes of Edward Scissorhands and concluded that this was not a satirical portrayal of suburban life. Okay.

[@blakchristianbale]

Yeah because the rest of the narrative didn’t reflect it

[@moonymilquetoast]

I always thought Beetlejuice was the villain though? I never thought of him as the lead or my favourite part of the movie, instead I saw him as the guy who happens to have a name that makes a memorable title.

[@flytrapYTP]

Same here.

[@eirianrobotto]

This deserves a million views at least.

[@JetSteele]

"I'm an old woman now, I'd rather him remember me the way I was" "Winona, he has scissors for hands, and scars all over his face..." You're seriously not seeing the irony that's supposed to be conveyed? The fact that she'll never really lose that sense of "Beauty is only skin deep" that she (and everyone else) had at the beginning and the tragedy involved?

[@PhantasmPhoton]

great point

[@isabellewillhaveapicnic4091]

"Listen... I got my depression at a catholic school, I promise it's not a solution." BIG FUCKING MOOD

[@Anthro006]

Thank you for unpacking all this in a way that helped me understand my own desire to watch these movies yet never feel satisfied with them. Greatly helpful when seen in contrast to movies with more actual depth and breadth!

[@AutisticTea]

I grew it loving Tim Burton films. Over the years, his repetition and attitude made me stop idolising them as much, and enjoying them more on a surface level. This analysis was excellent and I can't wait to see more

[@kanojo1969]

In 1998 I was 19 years old. I enjoyed Beetlejuice when it came out, but it was never supposed to be any great counter-culture icon or anything. It was a completely mainstream comedy, as are *all* Burton's movies. I think the whole problem here is that Maggie has gotten the impression Burton was supposed to be some kind of art-house "alternative" director, but that's never been the case *at all*. He's always been completely mainstream, just with an obvious quirky visual aesthetic. And a very limited one at that - everything he does is the same, and has always been the same. I wonder how Maggie got so confused in the first place? Just because someone is described as an 'auteur' doesn't mean their work is counter-cultural. Lots of auteurs make completely mainstream films in a unique way. That's all Burton is. I've never heard him described as anything more than that.

[@eldritchtourist]

That’s odd! I’ve never heard him described as mainstream and I had plenty of exposure to his work and fans. Good for you on never being confused about it- that just isn’t a universal experience.

[@brensherlock]

how can he not be mainstream? he made blockbusters like batman?@@eldritchtourist

[@Aster_Risk]

This is such a condescending comment. You don't agree or like what she said, so you feign confusion about her confusion. You aren't the only person on the planet, so you're experience is not the absolute truth. Tim Burton has always been divisive and confusing for a lot of people.

[@lronhillbilly]

In the 80's and early 90's Tim Burton was seen as mainstream. And then in the late 90's he started to become viewed as divisive and a counterculture icon. It's kind of the reverse of what usually happens, when an artist starts out as countercultural but then over time starts to be viewed as mainstream.

[@wilpuriarts5895]

This was more of an analysis about people misunderstanding or misremembering movies than movies.

[@stevejames5580]

exactly. Very sad this has so many views.

[@StarSnowGhost]

The two biggest things I have to say about Beetlejuice are this though: 1) Beetlejuice is the villain. You are not supposed to root for him. He's problematic (and was frankly WAAAAY worse in the script before Burton was attached) as he is bizzarely likable, but the movie isn't truly about Beetlejuice it's about the Maitlands and the Deetz's plight and how Beetlejuice escelates that for his own gain. People mistaking Beetlejuice as just some likable rogue and not the - ya' know- CREEPER VILLAIN isn't Burton's fault. It's the fault of his own blind fanbase that doesn't get the point - and I think a better argument can be made about how Burton is mad that people get the message wrong with his movies, yet he just as easily does that with his own fav films. 2) Lydia's depression and suicide is not a joke. It's a very dry, unemotional take on suicide because, since Lydia now knows there is an afterlife, in the context of storytelling she thinks that dying will make everything easier. The whole movie is about how even death isn't without consequences, no matter how accidental, or is without it's own problems. She doesn't just "talk to her new mommie and daddy and know everything's okay", she has a brief moment where she realizes that escaping isn't easy and definitely isn't the answer. I'd also argue she isn't over it since she's willing to throw her life away only a few scenes after her talk with the Maitlands because she rather quickly gives herself to Beetlejuice to save them. Burton is deconstructing the idolization of death that he was into as a teenager. I'm not saying it's a perfect deconstruction or that the character is very well developed. I am saying that I think there's more to Lydia and this very small but very important subplot than that. Not every movie or story is going to address suicide or depression from a sensitive or emotional side, but I don't see how that's wrong in the case of Beetlejuice. That scene was always very effective to me because the movie is so passay about it. In this instance, it's not because Burton and the writer's don't care about the themes, it's that they keep it in tone within the rest of the film and it's theme.

[@gizzyg5337]

Beetle juice is supposed to be an asshole. But the other characters and world are enchanting

[@sax87ton]

I was born in the early 90s and as a kid just knew Betelgeuse from reruns of the cartoon. In that he’s like the cast of Ah Real Monsters, where he’s gross and spooky but he’s generally a good guy and, you know, the protagonist. I didn’t watch the movie until I as a teen and was shocked at how, not only was he the villain, but about how not kid friendly he was for something I had always known as a children’s property.

[@ah-sh9dw]

I must've been 13 when I watched beetlejuice. All I remember was him trying to marry a child and a guy with a small head. Genuinely surprised people watched it without noticing how creepy it was

[@danielhergert7446]

Tim Burton set design and visuals are great, he does not use them well or draw nearly as much meaning from them as the works he is drawing them from. Vincent Price and the cookie heart are harmless in my eyes, Tim Loves vincent and even made a short film about the man. He wanted to cast one of his idols in a role before he died. (Scissorhands was one of Price's last films). This is the same reason Christopher Lee pops up as powerful characters in his films. Burton liked them growing up and wanted to work with them. Burton is more about text and does not think subtext through. Even the good films are held up by directing and set design with the plot being poor.

[@ocek2744]

To me Tim Burton has always represented that upper middle-class white kid who presents themselves as an outsider by saying they're "goth". It represents the desire to stand-out among what are essentially the high-class by faking the persona of one outside the system they exist in. It's basically the movie form of the "be different" flower meme that gets reposted by tens of thousands of twitter accounts without acknowledging the irony.

[@gmann6269]

He wasn't upper middle class, he grew up in quite a small house. Maybe he was middle class but not privileged. He went to an ordinary public school and struggled financially during art college.

[@ocek2744]

@@gmann6269 Not saying he's personally upper middle class, he represents the people at school who were upper middle class who were goth.

[@gmann6269]

@@ocek2744 People who are goths might identify with him but if you look at old school photos of him, he didn't look like a goth. Goths probably started after his generation.

[@ocek2744]

@@gmann6269 Since the goth look started in the UK in the 1980s and he was 20 by 1978, I'd assumed he didn't have anything to do with goth until later in life. He still was a big fan of horror shows such as Dark Shadows and horror icons, so he did have a similar basis as many goth fans.

[@reuteratwork8983]

I'm a little late to this party, but I'll join in -- what I loved about "Beetlejuice" was its sheer inventiveness, & the meticulous realization of its aesthetic & vision -- the folding together of staid small-town existence, ruinous urbanite pretensions, supernatural chaos, & the surreal afterlife depiction struck me as impressively original & engaging -- even devoid as it was of any meaning, beyond homage to the glory of "the simple life", I still found it an immersion worth my time -- &, yes, I enjoyed Keaton's garrulous, offensive, over-the-top performance, not due to identifying w/ the character in any way, just entertained by the broad, farcical exuberance & energy he brought to the role -- Beetlejuice's offenses were too cartoonish & overplayed to take seriously &, at any rate, he is repudiated by the text, defeated & banished at the end -- for all it's failings, it's still one of the most creative & novel-concept movies I've seen -- if I do choose to eat candy, I want it to be at least inventive & full-flavored...

[@gandolphgandolphini]

Beetlejuice is one of those rare bird films that is named for the villain and not the hero. Tricking you into rooting for a normally loathsome character. Goldfinger is the only other one coming to mind right now. Personally, I was always more on the ship for Lydia and the dead couple and those themes of found family and not waiting too long to be your true self. But yea, Burton's progressiveness and edge are only surface deep. Basically just a reflection of your own progressiveness and edge smiling back at you. Toothless, jolly, undead perhaps? His Disney house style upbringing definitely shows. I also feel like maybe his dog died or something the early 2000's and whatever organic sparks of joy in his work had existed went away. We'll always have Nightmare Before Christmas.

[@Jimmy1982Playlists]

Yeah, something about the movies that came after _Sleepy Hollow_ that didn't do it for me... actually I should say, except for _Frankenweenie_ (speaking of dead dogs lol). Tho I've never been big on animated films, I'm a sucker for B&W, and my own dog died not long before it came out. That was well done.

[@everforward5561]

I don't recall anyone ever saying Beetlejuice was a good guy. He's the antagonist. He also straight up murdered two of those guests.

[@TacticusPrime]

The fact that people remember him as a charming or funny guy is the problem. The very fact that he is awful AND likable is the problem.

[@nitehunter91]

@@TacticusPrime Isn't that the prime message of the film? 'Likable rogues may be devils in disguise'?

[@tripsplat]

I think the issue isn't people remembering him as a "good guy." There are plenty of villains and antagonists in movies that are very clearly evil, but are also lovable and funny as hell (Yzma from Emperor's New Groove, Dr. Evil from Austin Powers, Long John Silver in Muppet Treasure Island). Like, NOBODY can argue that Yzma has any redeeming qualities - the woman is cruel the whole damn movie, and tries to murder the protagonists on multiple occasions - but boy HOWDY, she is so much fun. There's also the fact that a lot of Beetlejuice's behavior, while creepy now, was considered acceptable and funny in a lot of 80s and 90s movies. Maggie's specific examples when he's being a pervert (forcibly grabbing and kissing Barbara, feeling up the disembodied legs, trying to marry a child) are a lot creepier to us now than they would've been to most mainstream audiences in the 80s and 90s. Movies like "Sixteen Candles," "The Sandlot," "American Pie," "Revenge of the Nerds," etc., had "lovable protagonists" pulling shit like having sex with a passed out drunk girl that previously rejected him, tricking a lifeguard into kissing via CPR, secretly recording and watching a girl get naked and masturbate via hidden webcam, and all manner of peeping tom-ery. It's pretty depressing to think of, but a lot of Beetlejuice's actions that we now recognize as "being a sexual predator" would've just been played for laughs as "wacky antics." Sure, the punchline is different (teen boy protagonists end up getting the girl because she "actually liked it," but Beetlejuice is angrily slapped and pushed away), but the joke's premise is ultimately the same (some woman/girl gets felt up/kissed/otherwise sexually assaulted). It's totally understandable that someone who saw the movie as a kid would remember that it was supposed to be funny, but forget the specific jokes, and end up mistakenly remembering Beetlejuice as a "lovable villain." That was was certainly the case with me before I re-watched it as an adult.

[@shoesncheese]

Maybe Beetlejuice apologists are talking about the cartoon which came after. Beettlejuice is creepy above everything else. He is not the protagonist; he is the antagonist. It's a good movie, but it's good because of Lydia and the Maitlans (not sure about spelling) triumphing over BJ and his nihilism. I never thought Lydia was actually depressed, just obsessed with the idea of being depressed.

[@boobysr]

No, i think lydia was maybe a bit dramatic, but she was definitely depressed. Her father remarried to a woman who doesn't like her or want anything to do with her and they moved to a new place where she has no friends or support from either parent. It's easy to see how a teenager can feel detached and helpless in that situation

[@The.Youtuber.with.no.Name.]

Amazing video. I think people only look at the aesthetics of his movies and not the content itself.

[@wanderingoryx3710]

Like all rap music about being a real nigga from the streets? 🤔

[@Luigi-ys6cu]

Because the content of his movies is in the aesthetics...he doesn’t write screenplays, he is a great “metteur en scène”

[@suides4810]

Wandering Oryx yes that type of music tho I have to say that there is good experimentalish rap that talks about issues in an intelligent manner. (I just dont know any english examples)

[@marcelcummings7418]

aaaaaaaaait'syou

[@Kuudere-Kun]

I wa snot expecting you to agree with a video like this, aren't you a 4Chaner?

[@blupunk01]

And yet Harry Belafonte not only personally approved the use of his songs for the film, he was thrilled that it created an entirely new generation of fans many of whom were previously unaware of his music. I'm in my 50s and grew up in a mixed-race household where Mr. Belafonte's records were part of the music landscape, and we thought it was pretty great to hear them in Beetlejuice. The fact that Day-O was being lip-synced by white people (and a mixed-race Asian American Adelle Lutz who you seem to have overlooked) was never a problem for us, and I don't think either we or Harry Belafonte need you to be offended by it on our behalfs.

[@sweetsnejinka9411]

That's valid. I'd like to share that I grew up under the impression that Day-o was written and performed by white people doing a fake accent. That made me hate the song, and I think this video explains where I got that impression. Love Bellafonte now. None of my peers have any idea who he is but they all know "that banana song." I think recuperation is a very valid point.

[@jamiewebber7485]

Here, here! Very surprising that Mae hasn’t even TRIED to respond to this or any other criticisms by anybody else of this horrible video.

[@sarahc2735]

I remember seeing Beetlejuice (or a good amount of it) when I was pretty young and being totally entranced. Then, when I watched it later in my young teen burton-loving, wearing-all-black stage I found myself *convinced* I had seen a different and less uncomfortable version of it on TV that first time. Maybe innocence cushioned the movie for me back then. This video aired a whole lot of feels I hadn't thought through before, and has given me plenty to chew over when it comes to Burton (his complaints about 'PC culture' lost me a while ago..); Great video!! :D (chased this up after hearing you on the Behind the Bastards pod!)

[@marafolse8347]

Every time anyone calls Tim Burton a genius or auteur filmmaker I get very confused. He’s just a normal director who happens to have a consistent visual style.

[@pavan_kumar556]

Auetur is someone who has a very distinctive style

[@chiarakia386]

Finally I found a video that explains the feelings I have for Burton.

[@AurelUrban]

I grew up on Tim Burton movies and I LOVED THEM because I had an affinity for dark and creepy stuff but still wanted the happy endings and didn't like to be actually scared. but, well, growing up, it's impossible to pretend like those movies are as good as I remember them. this video was great, I enjoyed it a lot!

[@Fixtheproblemwithgoodpolicy]

I thought Lydia was happy because she had a strange and unusual life and gained love and support she didn't previously have after her mom died.

[@apharris01]

Beatlejuice was the bad guy. I felt the movie was pretty clear about that when I first saw it, back in 1988. But you certainly make a number of good points about Tim Burton and his work.

[@tylerv6976]

Dark Shadows is another Burton movie like Edward Scissorhands where the main conflict is the sexual appetites of a woman vs. awkwardly distressed Johnny Depp

[@artfacekillah]

I've never been a fan of Tim Burtons movies and now I know why. Thanks for reenforcing my confirmation bias!

[@tobybartels8426]

It was always obvious to me that Beetlejuice is the villain of the movie. I guess that I remember that because I never watched the cartoon.

[@shauny8064]

Hello from three years in the future. This video has vocalized every one of my issues with Tim Burton's works that I couldn't articulate myself. Great video.

[@juniperbelmont]

It's cool watching this first video essay from 2018 and seeing how much of this channel's charm were there at the start. Keep making cool shit, Maggie, you're awesome

[@light69kira]

I generally agree with a lot of these points but I disagree with a couple of them. I feel like with Scissorhands it's a similar story to Nightmare before Christmas thematically, their about outcasts, freaks, wanting to have a place in "normal" society. The houses in ES are exaggerated partially to contrast more highly with Edward himself, showing how much he doesn't fit in, and partially to idealize them as something on it's face appealing. ES is a pessimistic story, showing the good parts of normal life but saying that it's unobtainable for the weirdo. Beetle and nightmare are the same theme, outsides being kept from the joys of "normal" but in high of them the characters find ways to integrate those jobs in their own ways, get to stay their eccentric selves while still getting to have that happiness. With Beetlejuice another point I don't get is calling Beetlejuice himself the main character of saying you are meant to like him. He's the villian, the main characters are Lydia And the ghosts, he's a devil character, they are warned multiple times not to go to him for help. He is by design unlikeable, that's the entire point of the character, to be overtly gross and off-putting. I think he represents the desire for outcasts to act like that, say fuck it, give society the middle finger and rebel against the whole thing, he wasn't the answer, he caused more trouble, the main characters get to form a new supporting family with each other in a nontraditional way while he gets essentially sent to hell. The message of all of these movies is that eccentrics are allowed to want the things society tell them to want, but that it won't look exactly like the cookie cutter if they get it and that's fine too. I won't justify anything in charlie of Alice, those I think he was trying to say the same thing but they ended up very sloppy and muddled, probably due to them not being his original works, and him essentially being a stylistic choice hired by Disney, I don't think he had much freedom, and kinda don't think his heart was in the projects, and go be frank, I think his skill declined significantly over time. I also very much aged that ed wood did not do a good job of portraying the gender defiance aspect, as NB I don't really think that aspect was treated as much more than a cute factoid about the directors real life. I don't think Burton is a genius, I'm hardly a fan at all these days, but I do think a more generous reading can be given to those first few passion projects he started his career with

[@davidsauro1793]

I feel the same way about Ghostbusters too, to be honest. It's incredibly dated, sexist, and conservative/Reaganist, and a lot of the humor falls flat. This despite me growing up loving it, and I think it was because I grew up watching the Cartoon series, just like people and Beetlejuice

[@thecountalucard666]

Remember how Peter Venkman went on a “date” while carrying a huge syringe full of Thorazine?

[@wellesradio]

I loved Ghostbusters growing up. It was the first movie I saw in theaters. Bill Murray became “my favorite actor”, which was a novel idea to me at the time, that you can have a “favorite actor”. But then I didn’t see him in much of anything for years. Reading and watching Cracked appropriately made some chinks in that movie’s nostalgic armor. But recently I watched it with people who had never seen it. It didn’t go over well. I used to love this movie?? Ironically, that same group watched a certain Tim Burton movie that we all agreed was still funny and fresh (despite showing its influences heavily) - Peewee’s Big Adventure. Damn good movie. I suppose Burton is an occasional “auteur”, but his best movies had scripts that came in ready-made and he didn’t tamper with them.

[@toshabeans]

For me, i enjoyed the movie Beetlejuice a lot. The character Beetlejuice was meant to be creepy and borderline unlikable, i thought.

[@RominaJones]

I remember seeing Beetlejuice when it came out in theatres and we understood him to be gross and there to make you uncomfortable. It was weird and having a main character behave like this was weird and different in mainstream film at the time. It and the character has under gone new meaning and pop culture regard as a tv/video favourite of a younger generation (they made a cartoon after all). How it was received when it was released and now how it is remembered are two different things.

[@joemama2499]

Even as a kid I thought Tim Burton’s movies were visually interesting but otherwise unfulfilling. Could never sit through them. Now I understand he’s just a hack with a flare for spectacle and not much else. Thanks, Maggie!

[@slashandbones13]

A creative proformence can also be the villain.

[@pb2325]

I always thought of Tim Burton films were for white boomers and GenXers who wanted to be goth/counter culture aesthetically but not culturally.

[@JadeCryptOfWonders]

I saw Big Eyes in the theatre and loved it, maybe it was Amy Adams tugging my heartstrings, or maybe it was the fact my lawyer mother has to defend clients against people like Christoph Waltz's character at the Family Court on a regular basis and I found this story of a single mother fleeing an abusive husband relatable for reasons most white guys like me wouldn't recognise.

[@kcnightfang]

This completely describes how I felt after watching Nightmare Before Christmas for the first time in my 20s. I have seen the merch, and knew that it was something people in my subculture liked, but I'd never gotten around to it. When I finally got around to watching it, I asked "What was the message?" I had always assumed there was a message for the outcast feeling kids. But there wasn't. It was just about knowing your place and not trying to change, and sticking to your own kind. Thanks for making that case much more clearly and giving words to my incohate thoughts.

[@kissarococo2459]

I saw it as "Just because you have a burnout does not make it right to steal from others"-kind of message. Jack outright shoves Santa out of his way to hijack his thing but ends up just doing Halloween in vaguely Christmassy way that ends in everyone hating it.

[@kcnightfang]

@@kissarococo2459 that makes sense as a reading too. It could be a cautionary tale about bad management and trying to take on a persona/affect that doesn’t work for you.

[@nataliejarosz9360]

@@kcnightfang And about not getting so self-absorbed while in a slump that you miss how your actions affect those around you. I just think of it as a Disney Christmas/Halloween fable especially shaped by Burton, Henry Sellick (the Coraline director who actually directed this movie), Danny Elfman, and Caroline Thompson (who wrote the screenplay while influenced by Elfman's stuff.) It was made out to be about primarily about reaching out to kids who feel like outcasts at school by teenage fans - not helped by the fact that though he's pretty much able to be a member of AARP now, Burton never got past being badly bullied in high school.

[@cuttlefishagain]

Yeah I never understood the hype around this movie. And I saw it in the theater as a child. I had loved Beetlejuice and Edward Scissorhands (and also liked PeeWee's Big Adventure). And I love Danny Elfman/Oingo Boingo (and I did back then, too. Like. Listening to Oingo Boingo was what I looked forward to doing as a kid, back when I didn't have my own radio/stereo and had to wait to hear it played in my parent's car cassette-player lol). But NBMC was kinda, meh? The plot was thin/unrelatable to me. I never understood why it blew up as much as it did. The main fun part to me was hearing Danny voice Jack's singing parts. As far as the theme, it does seem to be a warning against trying to be something you're not. I always felt it was embraced by more edgy/goth kids because it mixed Halloween and Christmas...or, kind of put more 'dark' Halloween-y things into a mainstream movie...so that made it cool....or something? I guess. But for me it didn't do anything.

[@sambean348]

Just found this through Hbomberguy's tweet, this video essay is 27 minutes of pure heaven and I can't wait to spend the next month binge watching all your content

[@r.w.bottorff7735]

I usually don't really care about Burton's work but looking at Edward Scissorhands as an autistic person, for me that movie captures my life experiences better than any other film. Of course it's just symbolic, but that movie reflects my particular blend of alienation perfectly.

[@gmann6269]

There's an interview on KZbin (Reelabilities film festival) between Caroline Thompson (who wrote the whole film) and a physically disabled man and at the end he tells her how the film changed his life and she is moved to tears.

[@Kane_the_Newschool_DM]

Holy shit I love this. I'm psyched Hbomberguy decided to tweet this video out, because I've definitely just found a new subscription. I'm essentially illiterate when it comes to Filmic language, so I always appreciate when critics are able to explain things in succinct, emotional terms I can get. I never would have guessed that the candy scene from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory (A movie I thought was okay, but never anything close to the original) was a subtle counter-criticism about his directorial style. I guess I haven't learned enough about film to be able to see things like that. Anyway, wonderful video! Your line deliveries are fantastic and the setup you've got going is very, very strong. It's like if other internet reviewers who sit behind a table and critique movies had talent and passion.

[@MaggieMaeFish]

Thank you! Movies are a fun way to have an excuse to talk about really stuffy, intellectual concepts that are otherwise really boring. So glad you enjoyed!

[@prajwaljayaraj5887]

This video essay almost feels prophetic in terms of how mainstream corporate cinema (especially Marvel movies) use or taking a visual or cultural motiff or appropriation hinting at diversity, subversiveness and progressivism (like Black Panther or it's sequel) and then recontextualizing it in a sanitized package that strips way any true subversive or radical notions to make it safe for consumption to a mass audience. The fact that people will go watch 'Wakanda Forever' with it's myriad of cultural remixing (appropriation) to create a commercial product "for the culture" over something like 'The Woman King' seems to really point to the phenomenon you were discussing.

[@jolliwoodstudios]

this was probably the most pretentious case of a ''i watched the movies but twisted the narrative around to fit my criticisms'' video i've ever seen.

[@X2Magneto]

Agreed.

[@halfgoblyn]

this take says more about you than it does Tim Burton.

[@KnaveMurdok]

MAGGIE! So glad you're putting out shit again. We all miss Cracked Video, you all got such a raw deal and it ain't fair. Glad yer back tho.

[@KnaveMurdok]

The only part of the story I know is that Cracked basically fired everyone that was doing videos for them, and their KZbin channel has pretty much been dead in the water for 7 months. I dunno any of the reasoning behind it, but yeah, they lost a lotta great talent as soon as they made that decsion.

[@malachi_k0nstant668]

Beetle Juice terrified me as a child

[@jimdotbeep]

The character Beetle juice isn't supposed to be role model, a hero, or even a good guy. He's not even the protagonist of his own movie. The movie is not advocating for his behavior.

[@dwaynezilla]

I hope that I never "like something so much" that I can't tolerate anything critical of it. That's some real fragile shit.

[@johnvinals7423]

Hot Take: Methinks people love the idea of Tim Burton more than any of his actual movies.

[@AGothNamedWednessday]

I'd like to start with: you are 10000% right. I have a very complicated personal relationship with Burton's work. On one hand, they are deeply nostalgic, and are a huge part of who and what I am today. As a child I needed his work, I needed that vaguely macabre surface level expressionism. On the other hand as a plus size, disabled, non-white, queer woman, with serious mental problems; I recognize that Burton's works are not for me. They make fun of me. They romanticize my disabilities when he feels that he can relate to them, and are actively mocked or looked down upon otherwise. My severe depression and PTSD is a joke to him. And yet I love his movies. I love his movies in spite of him. I love how awful and disgusting Beetlejuice is, and that this awful disgusting rapey character has been morphed into something enjoyable. I like the idea of his character, I like what pop culture, and the goth subculture has done to him. We've taken him, and changed him, and recreated him. I personally have always like the cartoon Beetlejuice more, and the type of character it spawned. And it's so divorced from Burton's original idea, and it's fantastic. While I hate how Burton potrays depression in Beetlejuice, I love how Beetlejuice made goths sympathetic to a non goth audience. While I think Burton's original intent was to make her depression just disappear, I think, if you believe in death of the author, it doesn't, but having a positive influence on her life, and feeling like she no longer is being neglected, helped her a lot. Even though Burton is a shit human being, I like exploring his ideas.

[@etherealsky7078]

A Goth Named Wednessday Wow! I agree SO MUCH with you!! I even feel kinda bad, because I’m very privileged compared to you (‘m just a cishet white girl lol). But the way Burton treated marginalized people still always bugged me. As another commenter said, we (the goth community) love the idea of Burton’s films more than the films themselves. _My_ idea of his films, alongside the people he inspired and was inspired by, certainly shaped me(/us?) more. Your comment is beautiful and I hope the community you’re a part of loves you the way you are! 🖤🦇 P.-S.: The Beetlejuice cartoon is a 11/10 guilty pleasure for me, and its 2nd intro is probably what first pushed me towards becoming an animator, in spite of the actual show being animated like *ss! 😅

[@AGothNamedWednessday]

@@etherealsky7078 I strongly suggest watching the princess and the schrivener; they did a "burtonmas" series last year, and they talk a ton about this topic, and the problems. It's a very good series Thank you for your lovely words, hope you have a wonderful day ^^ ,🖤