Rumination Analysis on Star Trek V: The Final Frontier

[@Vandalia1998]

"Excuse me, um, Why does God need a Star Ship?" That line I still remember to this day, even when haven't seen it in forever

[@edkwon]

One of the greatest quotable lines of all of ST

You don't ask the almighty for his ID.

[@Elnont]

I’m only thirteen minutes in but GOD do I love your content. I love the way you present yourself and your videos and how you’re both analytical but unapologetic in your own views. I’m a relatively young fan of Star Trek (just turned 18) and the information that you put forth about this subject is so interesting and I thank you for putting it out in this format.

[@keithwhittington2906]

There are many moments that I love in this film. Poor BIlly Shatner lol he really did sink a ship on this one but it wasn't all his fault. My favourite moment is when they board the Enterprise A and Kirk says "I could use a shower", and Spock turns to Kirk and logically says after days of camping out says "yes" lol perfect!

[@williamozier918]

Head Cannon Activate: You see in Star Trek IV they went back in time to save the Earth. As we all know time travel always has a ripple effect. The ripple effect of STIV was that it caused a temporal incursion which created Sybok. Meanwhile in the Delta Quadrant, Anorax fires a major shot from his time weapon which causes a massive temporal incursion which wipes Sybok out from the timeline.

[@janlinhart7914]

My interpretation of the movie is that it's largely a campfire story. In the first campfire scene Spock and McCoy are discussing traditional rituals related to sitting by a campfire. Sing along, sure, but what else is fairly common? Yeah, a good campfire story, either funny, silly, scary or any combination thereof. And because they are not good at this and they help each other to create the story, the result is kinda awkward, inconsistent, full of silly jokes and unusual situations. Imagination runs wild. And if I accept this as my mindset, suddenly the movie makes a lot more sense and I must admit I enjoyed watching it. There is even the second campfire scene in which it sort of ends (well, if you go for my theory, it does :)).

[@lonewarrior250]

+Jan Linhart That's an interesting perspective.

[@CaminoAir]

Jan Linhart. I think your comment is probably the best way of interpreting the film that I've heard. It would excuse a great deal of what happens between the two camp fire scenes and also explain why the final scene is the way it is.

[@EnsignRedSquad]

Yep. That is how it happened and explains a lot.

[@Drexxyl]

"I don't want my pain taken away, I NEED my pain!"

[@Pondimus_Maximus]

There's a Demotivational Poster out there with the title, "Spock's Brain." The caption below reads, "Look, not every episode can be City on the Edge of Forever, okay?" Shatner's reach clearly exceeded his grasp, but he did manage to nail the campfire scenes with the Kirk, Spock, McCoy friendship. Unfortunately, the script overall, meant it would never hit the same highs as the previous films, but it has a lot of enjoyable moments, and as always, a stellar score by the late, great Jerry Goldsmith.

[@Chablar89]

The campfire scene is one of favourite scenes in Trek.

[@alexbogatiryov]

I honestly liked this film because I thought it was a good film in which its brilliant moments outweighed the flaws such as the mix of comedy and drama. First, I think the theme of age which spans all Star Trek films is continued here as Kirk has a sort of a stereotypical midlife crisis in which he climbs a mountain without a safety rope. Loved the campfire singing as it is so rare to see the characters relaxing together. Equally important, the idea of Sybok taking away people's pain such as McCoy and Spock's and Kirk's refusal was one of the best cinematic examples of what it means to be a man. "I need my pain" was an all time classic line from Captain Kirk which I always remember when anything negative happens to me. Kirk understood that it was pain that shaped him. This is similar to the theme of the TOS Episode "This Side of Paradise" but expressed very well. Last but not least, since first learning about astronomy - I wondered what was in the center of the galaxy.This was the perfect culmination of the mission of the USS Enterprise "To Boldly Go where No One has Gone Before" (which is written on the steering wheel) The idea of going there fascinated me and kept me on the edge of my seat the first time I watched it. The fact that they did not notic the Klingon Bird of Prey was understandable as they like me were caught up in the moment and who wouldn't be? The concept of the barrier just being an illusion and there being no danger was similar to the leap of faith in :Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade." Believe it or not, when they first met "The One" for 30 seconds , they had me going and I thought it was actually the real God. Granted this was before I had seen all of TOS episodes but until the line "Bring the ship closer" I was as awestruck as the characters and the twist had a hint of mystery to it as Sybok said that it was his vanity. The last words of Kirk to suggest that "God is not out there, but in here - the human heart" was a good way to leave the door open for possible future God encounters or an agnostic message which was up to the viewer to interpret. I had only positive impressions from the movie and was surprised later to learn the Trekkie odd/even movie rule and actually emailed Jammer from Jammer's reviews about how shocked I had been about his negative review. He wrote me back and said he was happy that the film worked for me. I actually recommended this film to christian people and viewed it as the ultimate sci-fi stories. Only noticed the negatives in the film when others pointed them out.

[@IamDootsdoot]

I love how you say it's going to be a short video and yet it's an hour long. I honest to god love that about your videos. anyway, the first time I ever watched this movie, I was too young to even know the people on screen weren't real(I was 1 ish years old) . I watched this movie this morning, and wooow. Oh my god, it really is that bad. I found myself just laughing at the absurdity at a few points.

[@DrewLSsix]

That's an interesting take on the Miranda, by all measures it's a bigger badder ship than the Constitution class. I believe that was the concrete for its debut. It's not especially portrayed this way because in trek (until ds9) you never see these ships actually use all their guns. But on paper the Miranda has more guns and more mass, and some of those guns in the original script were called MEGAPHASERS!!

[@astryd8991]

Star Trek V; The Star Trek Holiday Special.

[@evertonporter7887]

Give us Star Trek V Special Edition with better effects.

[@michaelkingswood]

In fairness, a warship really IS a collection of parts and gear that is constantly breaking. Certain bits of gear constantly break more often than others, but there's always something that's broken, and it's usually the thing you need right now.

[@EnsignRedSquad]

The special effect for the shuttle chase scene was not half bad.

[@buddyannwalker6299]

I'm responding to your question you asked When you did your KZbin at analyzing of Star Trek V: the final frontier. Published on May 8th 2015. Your question was. You want to hear from people who genuinely thought Star Trek 5 was a good film. You would love to hear how & why. I am one of those people. I am 40 years old and I've been watching Star Trek since I was 4 years old. Reruns of the original Star Trek. And honestly for most of my life out of the original Star Trek movies. Star Trek 5 has always been one of my favorite movies. I would like to explain why but first I want to explain something else. Most people going to Star Trek 5 with a misconception of the whole Star Trek ideals the Gene Roddenberry originally dream for the future. They look at Star Trek 5 as if Star Trek for this movie walked away from or separated from the whole Star Trek ideas or genre of the rest of the Star Trek original movie series.. no I think that's a complete misconception or judgmental idea of what Star Trek 5 actually is. I believe Star Trek 5 was one of the best Star Trek movies. I'll let me explain why. First and foremost Star Trek was about the future but it was also about friendship and family. I always get the idea the most people conceive that just because Gene created a Utopia future that automatically means the characters individually have no problems or issues in the own life. I think that it's not the idea of the whole human race has overcome our personal problems and issues. That we are still in the future dealing with those issues, but in the end we will make the right decisions. And we still have regret for decisions we make. I think most people conceive that Star Trek future but the generally Human Nature will be 180 of what it is now that we have let go of our dark side and our bad decision making. That we're good no matter what and that is a complete misconception on the Star Trek ideals. I believe Star Trek 5 was one of my favorite Star Trek because instead of showing the fight on the outside were actually showing our inner fights and battles. Through our regrets of decisions we have made. And in the end showing that whoever our family is but even if don't believe in what we're doing. The back us up or realize in the end that they'll be there for us. Star Trek 5 was the first time we saw inner conflict in the Star Trek characters on a mass scale. My idea of Star Trek 5 is that the final frontier had nothing to do with space travel, but instead and had to do with what lies within ourselves whether good or bad. The True Villain in the show wasn't Spock's half brother or the Klingons. It was the darkness of regret the lies within each character. ( it definitely lies within each one of us) this is why I think most people don't really like the show they just don't look at it from this perspective. Because it wants you to look within yourself and show that you're regrets can lie down a dangerous path. And at the time and even now a lot of people don't want to look Within themself. In order for there to be a future we have to stop everything we're doing and stop pointing fingers outward at the world and First Look within ourselves and correct the negativity regret and truly awful things to grow out of the darkest places of our souls. For the future exist the truly final frontier is to fixing what's within ourselves before we can start fixing what's wrong with others or the world. Now Star Trek V characters just like ourselves today and just like will be in thousands of years has to learn first to accept that we make bad decisions and not bury the regret and negative emotions and decisions we make. Because in the end it can build to a point where we have no control over what we do. Because we can't denied the regrets in our past. I'm just like the characters in Star Trek who did that until a outside person who swore they could solve all their problems ended up leaving them down a path that could have been the road to destruction. We do this even today to easily do we blame everything on the outside I did not I wore problems we have within ourselves. And in doing so anybody can come along and bring out the worst within Society. I could go political I could go religious I could go historical but there are too many markers on the human race keeps letting this happen. It's easier to blame and hate stuff on the outside then deal with what's on the inside. Just like you can say somebody does you wrong just turn the other cheek forgiveness love compassion understanding. But how many of us truly follow that ideal. We say we do everyday but then we are too judgemental hateful spiteful a bad decisions other people make. And even if it contradicts what's in our belief system or ideals we follow. We can easily justify why we do what we do why we judge why we hate and why we just generally are acting as if evil people. Indiana work too busy denying not only what's within ourselves but we believe in. it's so easy to look at what's wrong with the world look what's wrong with your neighbor and look at what's wrong with everybody else. And it's so so easy to blame somebody else. whether you're in a position of power and religion or politics or anywhere else it's so easy to judge what those people underneath you are doing. because in the end if you're blaming or judging everybody else you really don't have to look within. Now understand I am getting some more of this on the show and in the world today and on what Gene Roddenberry had in store for Star Trek or just the future what he truly believe the future could be. but in order for there to be a future we all have to start coming together as a race as a people and as ourselves. it doesn't matter what you believe in in this case scenario. Or anything else and matters what you do within yourself. gently every religion the world talks about it. but we are too busy looking at the one place within our own belief systems that we can attack others. twisting the facts to meet what we want them to be or believe they should be and follow anybody around no matter what they say whether it's hate or love. Spock's brother was that person who the crew followed because he was able to get rid of the regret so they thought. in the end he was just brainwashed them to do what they he wanted them to do. In the end if something really bad would have came of that scenario in Star Trek they would have all felt a deep sorrow and regret deeper then the regrets they originally had. Point being in this is that Star Trek 5 was meant to be a lesson towards our inner behaviors and decisions we make. Instead of taking the path that could have led you towards destruction. it's taking that step towards a final frontier within yourself of making yourself and the world a better path and leading towards the Undiscovered Country. now why I threw in part of the name of Star Trek VI : the Undiscovered Country is because Star Trek 5 led the building blocks for not only Kirk and The Crew to forgive themselves and let go of their hatred within themselves but then in Star Trek 6 and help them be able to do that towards other people even their Arch Enemy or greatest villains in the Galaxy the Klingons. I think it ran along the perfect path poured Star Trek the Undiscovered Country. I think most people disregard or don't like the movie right off or some not at all. but I love the movie because Star Trek 5 is the voyage we take within ourselves. now that truly is the final frontier.

[@cyrusmorris9599]

DS9 did a good job of blending religion and sci-fi

[@subraxas]

THE BEST FILM EVER MADE ! ! !

[@VegaGoose]

19:48 reminded me of Zapp Branigan from Futurama

[@cyrusmorris9599]

I love this film purely for personal reasons, it was the very first Star Trek movie I saw in theaters, my father took me to see it.

[@cyrusmorris9599]

It's a bad movie with great scenes scattered throughout

[@Antonio-ui2mh]

I remember The Laughing Vulcan and His Dog. In the TNG episode Disaster its a popular children's song. When Picard and the children are climbing up the turbo shaft he recommends they sing a song. That is the song suggested but Picard didn't know it so they sing Frere Jacques. I think the Enterprise A was the Yorktown and a possible explanation of her problems is; either she was constructed hastily in three months and rechristened, or underwent a refit with new systems that weren't working properly.

[@Gridania]

I saw this in the theatre when it was released in 1989. The only time I have watched this movie. Your rumination brought back some memories that I had forgotten about, mainly the Uhura dance. I remember thinking that when the Enterprise reached the center of the universe they would find an evil entity. I also remember thinking that it was the Devil that they encountered. One thing that I always remembered about this movie was Sybok's ability to portray peoples deep routed pain as a holographic projection that everyone could see. The scene involving Dr. McCoy and Sybok. This scene in particular I have never forgotten, mainly because it was incongruous to McCoy's character. I honestly do not remember any of the Klingon's side story. Thank you for the rumination.

[@badmaninc.536]

I was actually thinking about this movie today at work. As always I very much enjoy your ruminations and loreruns, and I very much agree with you pretty much point for point on this. I made a few notes about what I would change in this movie, much like your Voyager ruminations. I’d keep Sybok the same character, but I’d change his purpose to being one of the settlers who was conned into moving to Nimbus III, who organized an army and took the trio of ambassadors hostage in an effort to force the three respective governments to actually DO something about the conditions there, perhaps with the backing of a third party which I’ll address shortly. Keep the Enterprise in its state of “Frelled” not even close to ready for a mission as delicate and as important as this hostage rescue at first. As the Admiral said, we have other ships available, but none of their captains have the experience and reputation that Kirk had and for this, they needed “the best” Kirk, Spock, McCoy, and Sulu temporarily go aboard the Excelsior, after all this makes Excelsior’s third appearance in the movies, and it’s done Frell-all. Scotty, Uhura and Chekov stay with the Enterprise to get repairs expedited as much as possible. Klaa, instead of being an impulsive hothead, craving battle with a Federation Starship, is the captain of the closest Klingon ship to Nimbus III with orders to respond to and deal with the hostage crisis. Have the Romulans respond to the hostage crisis as well... more on that later. We get a three way standoff in orbit between the three powers, as the K.S.M. Trio beam down to try to negotiate a resolution to the hostage crisis, leaving Sulu in command of the Excelsior. Meanwhile, we also see the expedited repairs being finished and the Enterprise leaving spacedock and heading to Nimbus III to assist, Scotty in command, Uhura relaying updates to and from command, to Excelsior, and Chekov at Tactical because he’s Kirk’s Tactical Officer, at least he was several times. The standoff begins to deteriorate as the Klingons bring in more ships to deal with the situation, and things look like they’re about to kick off to a shooting war. Tensions are high. The Enterprise arrives to even the scales, possibly a skirmish kicks off in which we see both the federation ships in action against the Klingons, oddly the Romulans are not engaging either side.. this is important. As Kirk, Spock, and McCoy work to secure the release of the hostages, Sybok reveals that he has been backed in secret by the Romulans, who sought to spur on both the federation and the Klingon empire to go to open warfare with each other over this neutral planet, thereby weakening both sides to the point where the Romulans can, in theory, have a pair of much weaker enemies to simply roll over when they make their own move. This revelation and the urgent reports of the fed and Klingon Ambassadors are the only thing that just barely avoids turning the Cold War into a full scale hot war. As always I’m interested in what you think about this idea. ~Atma~

[@andrewthorne3570]

When Klaa destroys Pioneer10 (which it seems have developed sentience, it screams when the first shot hits it) he was VERY close to earth, 820 AU from Earth. The inner edge of the Oort cloud is about 2000 AU from the Earth so he is basically in the solar system, with his cloaking system off, and firing weapons

[@nickokona6849]

I had the same feeling about Abrams Trek. They’ve all just felt like a label they slapped on “Space Americans fighting terrorists in space”. The Trek label was just to rope in established Trek fans.

[@politicalnerdV]

Maybe the Enterprise used to Omega-4 Relay to get to the center of the galaxy...

[@seanmoran2743]

The Renaissance artists worked wonders mixing Faith/Spirituality with Science And long before that It was Modernism (General Umbrella Term) starting in the late Victorian era and then in the aftermath of 1914-19 that tore the two apart And The Essence of Modernism is that Nothing is Sacred

[@The_Oracle_Of_Garnishments]

The Laughing Vulcan and his Dog - TNG Disaster...I got it. 🐕 lol

[@Yura-Sensei]

I likd the trio interactions and Uhura's legs

[@renateklovi]

I like this video more than I like the movie - thank you! :) Seriously - when I rewatch star trek, I skip "Star trek V" and watch this instead and it works.

[@darrenholcomb2266]

Watch 'Shatner's Raw Nerve' interview with Walter Koenig. Koenig takes Shatner to task about exactly why he and the other cast members feel as they do toward him for which Shatner gives, well, an explaination for it and then does apologize to Koenig.

[@alfredvalrie5541]

33:06 I like the bridge of the Enterprise-A at the end of Star Trek 4

[@EnsignRedSquad]

Yeah - it’s like JJ 2009, in a good way.

[@Medicranger]

It was a bad reused outdated design compared to VI

[@tph2010]

Check out Mr. Plinkett's Star Trek 5: The Final Frontier Commentary: redlettermedia.bandcamp.com/track/plinketts-star-trek-5-the-final-frontier-commentary

[@EnvisionerWill]

Headcanon - nobody went to the center of the galaxy because the Borg were operating in that area, and just before the events of this film, they moved on, having assimilated everything in the area which interested them.

[@padawanmage71]

Every time you mention 'Duck Dodgers', all I can think of of Babylon 5's Garibaldi laughing his ass off while watching the show. His second (third?) favorite thing in all the universe. ;) When you mentioned how religion and scifi don't quite mix well, I did think of B5 pulling it off pretty well, especially in how other races have religion, but also different kinds of them. I hope one day to hear you ruminate over the B5 series and maybe the tv-movies as well.

[@CRocketSlim]

What sucks is that like with TNG, Enterprise took like 3 seasons to really find its creative footing, but Nemesis was so terrible that at that point it no longer mattered

[@edkwon]

Well Season 7 of TNG was universally considered pretty poor save a few eps here and there, and the finale.

[@Dan-bq1dz]

Loved your comments on labels not making something a part of a series. I think of the recent CnC online game and CnC4. The antitheses of what made that game great

[@RoyalFusilier]

One thing I couldn't help but ponder as I re-watched this rumination is Peter Molyneux. That seems like an odd subject to turn to regarding this, but it's about the whole 'this isn't a Star Trek movie' thing, and how that improves the enjoyment. This was sold as a Star Trek movie. And it didn't do well, for that franchise, but a LOT of money was transferred to the people who sold this film, on it being Star Trek. Countless people were literally banking on Star Trek, where they might have never given Lone Hero Franchise 3673a the time of day. Time, energy, loyalty, and investment came simply from it being Star Trek, an effect any title in the franchise benefits from, whether or not it deserves it. They've already made their cash, in other words, and a ton of that cash was dependent on it being in the series. How then can they 'get off the hook', for lack of a better term, once they've got the green? Especially since it's clear that was uh, the primary concern. The same way old Peter was able to eat so much humble pie and bash his own efforts for each game in the Fable series... once he'd made basically all the sales he ever would from it, and it was time to sell the sequel, which would totes be better. But he still made the cash, and whatever he said, he sure still kept every bit of whatever he made for those things he now denounced. I dunno, I'm not saying it's 'wrong' to consider this as not in the series, but it was just a train of thought I had to go down.

[@thomasteague6356]

You know, honestly as a kid I had no idea this was considered a bad star trek movie until I was in high school and read up on star trek. In retrospect, yeah, the special effects were terrible. But seriously, what's wrong with the script? I really enjoyed how it pressed certain boundaries. It's not Star Trek II or VI. But it's to me, still classic trek. I so appreciate the level of research and dedication you put into these vids.

[@RA-VEN8]

Thomas Teague Funny how the nit pickers haven't liked it yet?

[@nigelmurphy6761]

I think in relation to the yorktown/enterprise thing, to me, it's more likely that the Enterprise-A was actually the Yorktown rechristened and renumbered. Don't think that Starfleet would have had the time to building a brand new ship especially with the whole Whale Probe thing going on prior to the events of STV

[@Medicranger]

If the Enterprise A was actually the Yorktown then that means the crew didn’t survive the whale probe. The Yorktown was the starship where the crew was trying to deploy a solar sail to create power to keep them alive.

[@ShadowStoryteller]

If I remember right, somewhere in Star Trek Lore it was stated that the Yorktown was recommissioned as the Enterprise-A. I could be wrong but either in the novelization of one of the films or mentioned in one of the shows or even in game lore somewhere I think I remember reading that the Enterprise-A was just the Yorktown with a new name. I also agree that this film just didn't fit into the rest of the narrative presented by 2-4 and 6.

[@Lorerunner]

That was presented as an idea to resolve this, which some of the writers on Star Trek V refuted, but V is debatably canon so... shrug? I like to think it's the Yorktown anyways, it fits pretty neatly.

[@andrewthorne3570]

You mention where The One sounds like Yosemite Sam. Could that be a call back to Kirk, Spock and McCoy being on a camping trip at Yosemite National Park at the start of the film

[@kitbashbob6426]

I thought it was established that the Enterprise A was the recommisioned Yorktown. There were many Constitution II class ships, but the Enterprise wasn't one of them.

[@CaminoAir]

I appreciate many of the points you are making and I found your monologue very engaging. It's not an easy thing to effectively talk to yourself for an hour and not stumble. Excellent job.

[@MrTrekFanDan]

...never really pondered it, but it kinda makes sense that the Enterprise A was the Relabeled Yorktown.... Personally I've always loved the look of the Enterprise A the best, but then I love A-10 Warthogs too over all the fancier jets.

[@ShurueViridian]

Admittedly I'm not overly aware of Star Trek. The character assassination in this movie didn't really catch my eye as a result. There were some things that I did notice, especially with Kirk, and of course the Ahura dance, but for the most part it admittedly went over my head. That being said, I found the mind control ambiguity odd and would have preferred if it was clearer. There were two scenes in particular that stood out to me as things that I actually enjoyed. The first being Kirk's response to Bones as Sybok offers to take his pain away. "You know that pain and guilt can't be taken away with a wave of a magic wand. They're the things we carry with us, the things that make us who we are. If we lose them, we lose ourselves. I don't want my pain taken away! I need my pain!" Then there was also the moment where they were about to go across the barrier and the camera pans down to the starfleet motto: "to boldly go where no man has gone before". I liked those a lot. Other than that, I wouldn't say that the movies is fun to laugh at, but I can't argue that it is an illogical mess. The comparisson to a Bugs Bunny cartoon is hilariously accurate. Makes me wonder why I didn't find it funny. I don't know if I would say that this movie isn't Star Trek so much as I would say that this thing isn't a movie. It lacks completion in every way that matters. The acting, writing, and special effects are all half-baked. This thing could have been good if they had bothered to edit it properly instead of pulling a George Lucas on us. In a lot of ways this movie reminds me of X-Men Origins: Wolverine. The reason I do not consider it cannon is not because it is a bad movie but because it goes out of it's way to contradict everything else in the series. Final Frontier is in the same boat. It's an unfinished mess that goes out of it's way to contradict everything in it's setting.

[@OxtaltheDM]

I always enjoy your deeper look on movies. I feel the same as you on this movie. I tend to skip it if i watch a marathon on tv and get to 6. which in my view is one my top ten favorite movies. Keep up the great work sir.

[@Northfan42]

I have a feeling that the "mind control" was built on one of two motivations behind the writing of it. 1) The writers payed no attention to the inter-character relationships prior to this point and simply wrote the alien influence as having a blanket effect to service this plot in a vacuum. 2) The writers knew exactly what the inter-character relationships were and allowed this alien influence to override the loyalty and so on as a way of creating genuine tension and menace from said over-powerful influence. Alas, both possible points of influence failed here and we wound up with an unbelievable pile of non-canon drivel, but I can at least see what they were attempting to do, whether or not they understood the pre-existing characters.

[@kblargh]

Ok.... is that background at the start of the video Risa? It just seems similar somehow. Btw, i unlocked the Fan Dance in STO with 3 of my characters. Just seemed like the right thing to do. Also, Christopher Walken as Sybok, and this movie would have totally redeemed itself. Well, at least partially. That's all i got. EDIT: Wait, no, i actually got something. I really liked the scene where Bones has to face his past, and what happened with his dad. "What if" can be a very powerful thought. If you use it well, it can empower you to do a lot of neat stuff you might not be able to otherwise. On the other hand, if you allow *it* to use *you*, and cast doubt over you actions and your character, it can pretty much tear you apart. Bones made a very difficult and heart-wrenching decision when he turned off that life support, and then lo and behold, history proves him wrong. What if he'd known? More importantly, what if his father had known? Would he have held out? Would he ever forgive him for having made the wrong call? And he won't ever know the answer to that, for as long as he lives. That has got to be some serious agony right there. Spock, on the other hand, is simply beyond it. And rightly so, i might add. The man has had to live with a dual nature all his life, and has probably had to solve inner conflicts by the truckload from a young age, in a culture that, for all it's professed serenity and enlightenment, is actually rather bigoted and intolerant (in my view) towards difference within itself - which can do a real number on you if you let it. Sybok has pretty much nothing to throw at him, and Spock knows it. Yeah, his father didn't like his humanity; old news. And his answer to Sybok is right on the money: "I'm not the outcast boy you knew so long ago. I know who i am, and i cannot go with you." And Sybok knows he means it, and that's that. And then of course, there's the third option, which Kirk takes by renouncing the whole thing altogether. Bones' line is interesting here "Try to be open about this". The assumption, of course, is that Kirk is being close-minded, and hasn't the strength to face up to his inner demons, but i don't think that's the case at all. It's not that Kirk was lacking, he'd just already answered the dilemma all by himself. Whatever pain he holds, he'll face up to, and overcome or fail on his own terms. It's a thing too integral to the core of his being to leave to anyone else to tamper with, no matter how benign they think they're being. Now, this isn't to say that it's a bad thing to seek help to solve your inner problems, but it's a whole other story to let someone else solve them for you. There's a line from Max Payne 2 that stuck with me for some reason: _Vlad was right. There are no choices. Nothing but a straight line. The illusion comes afterward, when you ask_ 'why me', _and_ 'what if'. _When you look back, see the branches, like a pruned Bonsai tree, or a forked lightning. If you had done something differently, it wouldn't be you. It would be someone else looking back, asking a different set of questions._ It think it fits here. Kirk knows that if his inner anguish and regret are just indiscriminately washed away, he'll pretty much literally lose himself. And i just thought that was pretty powerful stuff.

[@fatsqueek2657]

This is such a great movie to watch with friends for a good laugh, though it really is a shame given the production nightmare that was its development. Props for making an engaging video about a generally disinteresting film, especially the bit regarding Shatner's relationship with the cast, which was I had never known.

[@TheSyledir]

I have a theory: Captain Styles has fallen from grace after the events of Star Trek III. So he still had a grudge against Kirk. Once he learned that Kirk would be in command of the Enterprise-A (or the Yorktown, doesn't matter), he went out of his way to turn that ship into a worthless piece of junk. A fitting present for the man, that once bested him. Good idea? No? Well, it was worth a try. Wether something can be explained away is irrelevant. That is not the job of the viewer. Since the movie did not give the viewer an explanation on why no ship has ever returned from Sha Ka Ree, it has failed in that regard. Simple as that. And finally Kirk: I've just got the impression that rules did not apply to him, but to everyone else. Just look at the Kobayashi Maru Test. He cheated and they gave him a medal for that... and made sure that no one else was able to do that ever again. He disobeys his superiours and undermines their authority and they do what? Turn him into the poster boy of Starfleet. These methods can lead to others looking at Kirk in disdain. Like, I think, Captain Styles did. He couldn't wait to make his mark in history and beat the great Captain Kirk. This may sound like I hate Kirk but is not the case. He is not my favourite character, but he fits perfectly in this ensemble. But I have seen similar things in real life and they rarely, if ever, turn out in a good way.

[@macree01]

Thats the thing, Kirk didnt JUST cheat. He presumably hacked a very sophisticated federation security system and did extensive reprogramming of an advanced battle simulation, all as a CADET. Kirk was a genius and an unconventional thinker who flew by the seat of his pants. He saved the entirety of the federation more than once as the Captain of a star ship along with the rest of his crew and I think ultimately his record simply spoke for itself. Kirk DOES undermine authority, but the thing is that he gets results ; like it or not.

[@evertonporter7887]

I imagine Styles sneaking aboard the Enterprise-A and taking a baseball bat to its vital systems with a big smile on his face.

[@djgamer5546]

So this film in-particular demonstrates my hypothesis about the "odd-film" phenomena being at least partly the result of a "Hey, that last film was REALLY successful! Let's try and do that again! Creativity be dammed!" mindset. I'd say The Motion Picture and Generations' failings can be argued to do the same, only based on the TV series that preceded them. Then the even films are "Well, that didn't work...sure, do whatever you want-here, have a little money."

[@saxbend]

I can't explain why, but I love this film. Not as much as 2,3,4,6 or First Contact, but more than the rest.

[@saxbend]

Actually there is one thing I can point to. This film feels like a Star Wars film. The aesthetic is very like Star Wars: the locations and the costume designs in particular. And the themes are also very Star Wars. It's much more fantasy than science fiction. To me it feels much more like a Star Wars film than the Prequels ever could.

[@Flaris]

Yeah, I really only saw this once so maybe I can't put as much detail into my thoughts on it. Maybe it is so bad it is good, or maybe it's just a disaster. I suppose it just depends on your personal perspective. For me it's a bit more of the just pure bad, but I can see the other side of it. Not sure what to say on this thing. Just what were they thinking when they made this movie? (Admittedly we know that after this video, but just wanted to say it). I guess they were doing their best...but yeah they didn't quite get the result they must have been aiming for. I can only imagine the guilt for those who made this. It didn't kill Star Trek, but the idea that they almost did must just destroy the people who really care about it.

[@jamespepper8671]

This movie reminds me of the awfulness of Dune where I went to the theatre with my friends in College and it was so bad that people started making comments all over the theatre, poking fun at it all around. It was so bad that the managers of the theatre brought up the house lights and everyone was talking to each other, having a nice time while that thing was running on the screen. The friend who told us this would be good because he read the book, we all ragged on him and pointed him out to everyone in the theatre. All in all it was an enjoyable experience at the theatre.

[@seanmoran2743]

Seems to me Star Trek has always had a Jungian theme running through it

[@OpenMawProductions]

Just one thing around 42 minutes in, I don't think VI got the same budget as V. They still had to cut a lot from VI, especially character related scenes leading up to the mission briefing, due to budget limits, same for having to reuse sets from TNG again and not being able to do some of the stuff they wanted to do. I'm pretty sure VI still had a pretty small budget all things considered. You will note there are no new ship miniatures built for one, it's all stuff they could just pull off the shelf and refilm. Same for most of the costuming and everything else. Star Trek V really did a lot of damage. The only scenes I really get any enjoyment out of are the campfire scenes with the trio, and the performance of Sybok.

[@1300l]

About the center of the galaxy, wouldn't it be more realistic to explain as not the center of the galaxy. As sybok was seeking for a vulcan legend called god.. it could be the "old" center of the galaxy, a place where the medieval vulcans would concider to be the center but just isn't even close in reality.

[@permeus2nd]

so this is the only Star Trek film i have never seen but oddly i can say ive not seen the others that much some of them only once Khan been the exception ive seen that 7 or 8 times but never all the way though, in the UK it used to be a standard that at easter, christmas and other holidays and stuff like Bank holidays they put on a family film, films normally picked where star trek Khan a james bond film or star wars but in all my years they never put 5 on (or at least not that i can remember) guess that says a lot about how people see 5. also yes Kirk Awesome but i cant hear you over the sound of how awesome he is :D

[@calamity916]

Why weren't they able to get ILM? Also I'm down with the David Warner love. Loved him since I saw the original Tron movie back when I was a kid.

[@danielyeshe]

calamity916 Well it has been 2 years so you probably don't care any more - but ILM were doing The Last Crusade.

[@ryanspencerlauderdale687]

@@danielyesheand Ghostbusters 2 and the second Back to the Future as well.

[@darkram13]

While I can't disagree with anything stated in this video, I really think Laurence luckinbill does a very good job considering the character Ark either isn't well-thought-out or well assembled

[@stanislavkostarnov2157]

wait... DS9 is all about religion... and it is StarTrek by most

[@kereed1000]

Give in to your anger!....let the rant flow through you.

[@Bullitt3401]

I totally understand how you view STV. I look at Terminator Salvation the same way.

[@Bullitt3401]

I forgot to mention...this was the first ST movie I ever saw in a theater. I remember thinking "This isn't right" many, many times while watching it.

[@magnenoalex2]

Opening scene and campfire my canon as its said shore leave good little fun short before undiscovered country. Just discount the rest

[@Ceriden]

Just listened to this while on a walk and felt like calling Arche out a little. Having just watched part of a WoW stream (No men) you did, the topic of spoilers came up. You said even people stating how they felt about a movie it can influence the way the viewer feels while watching it. So why give your sister some of the behind the scenes anecdotes, which in this case were bad? Wouldn't that have colored her opinion? Want to also give a second thanks in regards to my question and your answer about STO, a week ago. Namely about the really expensive expansions. I did try the game again. Last time I did was when the starting area was a damaged/boarded ship then go fight some borg cubes. Am level 12 I think with about 22 hours invested. So far it's just not grabbing me. While it doesn't feel empty like my first try, the story (What little I've experienced) just is not grabbing me. Will give it a little more time but so far I'm a meh.

[@UkrainianPaulie]

I like how outsiders steal, board Starfleet vessels and somehow manage to capture said ship/crew from those who know the ship inside and out. Star Trek from before TNG onward always has this problem. How many times did Picard get his ship taken from him? Starfleet security was a joke. Not even security on the bridge. Also the number of decks/repeated decks in the turbo lift shaft scene.

[@47imagine]

Your videos wouldn't be complete without the frequent nose-picking and booger examining....but that being said....i do like your videos a lot! :)

[@chortlesspaceretort1585]

By pointing this out, it's become something that can't not distract me. Damn, I miss not caring now... ;)

[@alfredvalrie5541]

46:07 he’s a zealot who thinks no harm will come to him

[@PredatorianStyl]

Release the Shatner Cut! :-D

[@TheChatterbox1991]

i've only ever seen of Star Trek 5 was Nostalgia Critics review of it, i actually find it weirdly enjoyable with all of it's flaws.

[@TheBoundBowman]

Arch, can you confirm you really like the green screen, and your talking head taking up less than a third of the total viewing area? Seems like a strange choice to me, but if that's your thing, I am behind you as always!

[@Lorerunner]

Kuroguma Now days it's more like 2/5ths but yes. Unless people absolutely hate it I'm not making me larger.

[@TheBoundBowman]

Lorerunner Thanks for the reply Arche! On my phone you're just real small and I want to see the frustration in your expression when you talk about stuff like the fan dance. :) But seriously, great rumination you hit the nail on the head as usual.

[@lineshawn4819]

Lorerunner Personally I find it very distracting that you don't take up most of the screen.

[@kinggoten]

Bartz the Man i agree with this as well but i normaly don't watch and just listen anyway

[@CRocketSlim]

I like having the option of watching you as you go through your analyses but I have to admit, a lot of times I'm just listening to your words Good on you for doing B5 reviews etc. almost decades after anyone really cared about the franchise btw

[@foxmolnar6258]

Star Trek 5 is bad. But the strength of the 3 main characters holds it together enough for me out of nostalgia that I can't write it completely off or attack it as hard as I did in my youth. It still has a sort of heart to it (other than the incredibly lame cantina and desert dune knockoff middle scenes). I enjoy your reviews but feel this one perhaps was a bit too emotional for you to tackle nearly as well as you have with the first 4 entries in this series. It happens...Perhaps I'm being too protective of characters as well. I freely admit its interpretation at this point.

[@jani11]

God, no cohesion in this film, watching it right now and struggling.

[@lucasvincent2875]

I loved James Doohan. He signed my wife's butt at a convention, always stopped and talked with us after that. Sweet and charming!

[@talideon]

Definitely looking forward to the ST VI rumination!

[@cliffcampbell8827]

"...to boldly go where no man has gone before." The first movie that shows the Enterprise going into new territory (because they're hostages...so much for the "boldly" part) and it was bad. TNG's opening should be "...to blandly go where we've already been before." There are just a handful of episodes from TNG I think are actually good.

[@starwolf99]

Nemesis was definitely worse in terms of raw numbers at the box office, even before adjusting for inflation. It was also the first Star Trek film to not debut at #1. It lost to a Jennifer Lopez rom com called "Maid in Manhattan"

[@decap008]

i wish to know your top 10 worst things about star trek! :D

[@noblevi3623]

Another excellent analysis, and I enjoy you're finally starting to be outright with defending yourself, "If you want to bash me, get off my channel. You don't belong here." Sometimes people need to hear the absolute ultimatum - and I'm sure you're aware, doesn't matter how much you mediate, you're always going to generate haters. Similar to the programming problem of once you pass a certain amount of lines of code in your program, you are FOR SURE going to have bugs. So, it goes from bug troubleshooting to bug management instead. Unfortunately, I caught most of these Star Trek movie analyses (?) after they were all released, so I'm watching them in a marathon. Can't bring myself to do that for Voyager. Sorry. :P

[@mr51406]

What do you know, it’s actually a pretty good movie! ⭐️So bad it’s good? Or has in aged well? Or the nostalgia? Of course an excellent critique by Lore. First may I say I totally ❤️ Jerry Goldsmith’s Klingon theme. It’s haunting, compelling, unforgettable. Worthy of a symphony orchestra. Five is a lot more interesting than the banal story of 9. The writing is a bit sloppy but more earnest (despite the plot holes) than the messy and grandiose 1 and 7. It could be argued as good as (dare I say it?) the “transitional” 3! There are glaring plot holes: the instant conversion of the crew, the too rapid voyage to the “great barrier,” the ridiculous height of the Enterprise. That’s lazy. It goes to show than it is essential to have some of us Trekkies as advisors in the writers’ room. (Proven in the solution to the problem in Galaxy Quest). The effects are shoestring. But effects don’t make a good movie, even in science fiction. The effects in 10 are magnificent but cannot salvage a story that is weak, aggravating, exploitative in the case of Troi. Considering that the actors were supposed to be at odds with each other, it certainly didn’t come across. They’re pros. It is said that it’s Nichelle Nichols’s favourite… because of the fan dance scene. Lots of lovely moments of sincere camaraderie. One can criticize Trek humour, and sometimes it’s out of place, but there are a lot of fun lines. Ironically, though the TNG actors are all great friends, they couldn’t seem to get any enthusiasm going in 10. It was obvious that one was the end, all were tired. Which goes to prove that Shatner may be a bit of a schmuck but he a pretty good director. (Of course being a Montrealer myself too, I admit I’m partial… 🇨🇦 A schmuck but he is our schmuck!) This is what you get when you have a just ok story but you don’t have the tasteless, cultureless Berman behind you. 🚩One could arguably rank the Trek movies in this pattern, from best to worst: 8, 6, 4, 2… 7, 5, 3, 1… 9, 10.

[@benprewitt4600]

I like the narrative through-line between this and Galaxy Quest in your videos, of this one not being Trek, but GQ being Trek. I always felt that Star Trek V had moments in it that were definitively Star Trek moments. They weren't really any action set pieces, like The Motion Picture with it's reintroduction of the Klingons, or Wrath of Khan with the earworms or Mutara Nebula Battle. But the campfire scene at the beginning, and "What does God need with a starship?" are, to me, those characters at their essence. Other characters were completely botched, effects were awful. But those scenes were amazing by themselves.

[@badjokemaker3051]

I just realized..I would rather watch Final Frontier again than Nemesis.

[@Jokie155]

It's the difference between incompetence plus meddling, and wilful ignorance plus flat out disrespect. The former and the latter.

[@basara7]

Even other (admitted non-canonical) star trek works have said that 5 didn't happen. The novel Autobiography of James T Kirk makes the events of 5 a bad piece of in-universe fiction.

[@anna-elizabeth]

This film is a mess, but I do have affection for it, partly because it was the first Star Trek movie I got to see in a theater. I saw the ST movies before this on television or rental. I do like a few of the moments of the film, such as crossing the Great Barrier, "What does God need with a Starship?", and Spock forcing General Korrd to try. I also wonder what might have been if they had told Shatner - "you can direct, but under control," something like Nimoy on Star Trek 3?

[@heatshade6096]

Apart from the name of the Enterprise being the one after The Voyage Home and the obvious aging of some of the actors... maybe Star Trek V is a prequel ala "The Temple of Doom" and is in between The Motion Picture and The Wrath of Khan... ? Kirk seems alot wiser in Star Trek 2, 3, 4 and 6 than the pompous ass that he is in The Final Frontier.

[@brendanfollett530]

Is that possible, lore-wise?

[@ZemplinTemplar]

I suppose you could extrapolate that the uniforms of II - VI were already in place before II, if we accept the premise that V is secretly a prequel to II. :-)) The "pyjama uniforms" of I are unique to that film.

[@1300l]

I like this movie. It is dumb and make not many sense. But it has the core friendship of Kirk, McCoy and Spock. Sybock, a revolutionary Vulcan is a neat idea (even though they screw up by make him Spock's brother). The cheeky action for the first time felt like TOS.. And McCoy father part was amazing, said so much about who he is. I also like that god was a fake and but he did bring every one together, Klingons, Romulans, Federation and in the end it does not matter, as long we have love in our heart. Oh Numbus was such a neat concept. First, a joint venue on enemies to govern this far from every one planet.. AND IT FAILUED! I like it. Yea, it is not too Star Trek, nor deep, not even the best of the Original Cast movies.. it is the worse of the 6. But it still feels like Star Trek and as any cheek TOS episode, there can be joy in watch. The problem of read too much on the behind the scenes (like masters of doom) is that it make us believe that something is more than a mess then it is. Quake is a example. It is superior to Doom in every single aspect (except color pallet), it WAS more popular and modded than Doom ever was. But cause the devs had fun making Doom, and pushing it more (Romero only talk of Doom, Carmark remaking Doom in Doom 3), people put Quake down.

[@PapaWooody]

Rivals Battlefield Earth as the Worst Cinematic Excrement of All Time.

[@alfredvalrie5541]

57:59 nailed it 🤣

[@dirtywashedupsparkle]

Interesting Lore, watching this in 2019, that you decide to get around all the hateable things about this movie by saying that it simply isn't Star Trek, and then you could enjoy it. Many would say the same words and simply lament that it isn't but it is because it is the same franchise, so interesting. That being said, it would follow then that I could feasibly do the same with any Star Trek I deem too violatory for canon, or Whittaker's Doctor Who under Chibnall, or Star Trek Discovery, or Star Wars' The Last Jedi, which I would love to do, but where then does it end? That is a matter for debate, and I for one will have to do backflips more to be able to discount bad iterations as simply not what they are labelled as. But really glad you have that gift, it saves a lot of headache.

[@GregorySnipe]

I really like this film.

[@EnvisionerWill]

@Lorerunner - In one rumination after another after another about episodes and movies you don't entirely love, you keep insisting that the Bird of Prey is a crap ship that is no threat for the Enterprise. It happens SO often that I can't actually think of an episode where you mention that the Bird of Prey is weak the way you appearently want it to be. So what exactly is your source for this idea that Birds are pathetic weak ships that are no match for a Federation flagship? Are you just getting it from technical manuals? Because we have like three movies and at least a couple of episodes which all rely on a Bird or two as their main threat, and I don't think it's reasonable to expect a movie audience to have read the technical manuals.

[@edkwon]

Discovered your channel and great analysis of the ST films so far. I too am like you where I thought V was absolutely garbage when I first saw it and it was one of the only TOS films I didn't rewatch multiple times throughout the decades. In fact I didn't revisit the film until I listed to a few podcast analyses which did acknowledge how bad it was yet really enjoyed the bad comedy in an ironic, post-modern way. Now I enjoy it as a bad film to make fun of as well and Shatner's ego is all over this film. In my head canon I prefer to believe ST V fits in canon in this twisted way:To me the events of ST V actually happened in the ST fictional....but the movie is a gross distorted and unreliable account of the actual events, told thru the highly distorted and biased viewpoint of James T Kirk. To me when they were trying to fix the A at the start of the film after the shakedown flight from the end of ST IV, Kirk is trying to record a Capts log on a handheld recorder. This promptly breaks in his hand like everything else and from that point on, he is unable to accurately record anything real time and then the events of the movie happen. However Kirk doesn't end up recording a log until much much later and by then, who knows what actually happened but we get Kirk's wildly inaccurate and biased retelling of traveling to the center of the galaxy (near impossible in that time frame) and meets, takes on 'God' and wins and none of the rest of the characters act true to their natures (are idiots and buffoons), the Klingons are cartoony caricatures, and Shatner is a spry, youthful Superman?So to me, ST V is one of the most blatant cinematic examples of the 'unreliable narrarator' type stories. Ask any other member of the Enterprise crew if this story was true and they would go 'uhhhh, that isn't what happened'.

[@Lorerunner]

I rather like that idea. Would fit in nicely with Kirk's mellowing out by 6.

[@thepalalias]

I hate V so much. I only watched it once but if I ever did again, it would be MST3K style. Nemesis may have had countless weaknesses and problems (the Argo scene was utterly ridiculous for starters) but I never got actively angry at the movie the way I did with V. Out of the first ten Star Trek movies, V is the worst by far.

[@Dlytell]

I don't believe one can "kill" Star Trek. There were bad and very bad installments and there will likely be bad and very bad in the future, (see Star Trek Beyond). Even TOS has a great number of bad and very bad episodes: Galileo 7 (wretch) Alternative Factor (gag). Spock's Brain (wretch and gag). TNG had Shades of Gray and Masterpiece (of crap) Society. But the good and very good of Star Trek will always be with us to remind us of the importance of striving for excellence that is at the heart of Star Trek. (See City on the Edge of Forever (yes!) Doomsday Machine (Yes, yes) and Amok Time (an infinity of yes!). As for Final Frontier, it had a few good parts like Kirk saying he always knew he would die alone and the repeated mantra of Sybok: "I could not help but notice your pain." The worst parts are how Kirk becomes a general buffoon, Uhura's fan dance and Scott's bashing his head in a pipe. They were trying to be original so they get a few points for that... but they should have re-thought those scenes. sad they had to resolve the story by killing off the God Thing. What was he? why was he imprisoned on that planet? My biggest gripe is with the ease with which the Enterprise sails to the center of the Galaxy where no ship had gone before... but they had to since the God Thing was transported there. It would have been better if Kirk was able to convince the God Thing to stop being evil.

[@UkrainianPaulie]

STD? Discovery is shite!

[@maxh_music]

I don't know why but this movie has severe 'Batman & Robin' vibes with its set designs and weird jabs at humor and sexuality (ex. Uhura and the cat stripper)

[@Urvy1A]

I think Jason Takes Manhattan almost killed Star Trek V

[@XavionofThera]

You may be offended by this, but there is no such thing as a "bad film" IMO. Or a good film for that matter. There is no inherent "good" or "bad" in works of fiction. Only things people like or don't like.

[@XavionofThera]

That said, I don't like this film.

[@amartin4193]

I actually like this one better than 3. Love the ideas in 3, but the execution to me is not very good. This one, there are some hokey lines and one liners and stupid scenes, but rather enjoyed.

[@MrTrekFanDan]

For my part, I am more forgiving of Trek movies or episodes that are widely considered "bad." ...Rather than bash them, I just pretend they don't exist, and don't watch them. ;-). .....I guess I try and tell myself "It's all good, some are just better than others." Basically, I tell myself "One bad episode of Trek is still better than a full day of a great many other shows/movies." Then I accept the bad ones as being just like people, all have their faults.