LotFP, BFRPG, or B/X Essentials? ~ VR Brian Courtemanche

[@wimplesaur]

I'm at the age now where I don't have the time or energy to deal with a ruleset that doesn't immediately engage me. That's where B/X essentials (now Old School Essentials) wins for me. I've read so many of these retro clones and they all have their good points but BX/E, OSE is the first one that I've read that immediately draws me in and makes me want to GM a game. The layout and organisation is simply superb; a topic is presented on two lay-flat pages so no page flipping is required to continue with a topic. The page layout is very clear and attractive and my eyes can scan the information very easily. The individual books create a modular system which makes it easy to use only what you want for your particular game. And there is some very nice old school art. Normally with an RPG I only think about whether the rules are good or not. This game has made me appreciate that the presentation can be almost as important.

[@MrSteveK1138]

"I enjoy ascending Armor Class. " *subscribes to your channel *

[@burningphoneix]

BOOOO! SHUN THE ASCENDING ARMOUR CLASS HEATHENS!

[@thisismambonumber5]

I bought all three, hehe. Owning books is awesome

[@henrykorvus6954]

None of the above, Castles & Crusades.

[@christopherrowley7506]

What's your reasoning?

[@eloyc4245]

Note that there are free versions of B/X pdfs. They have no art and poorer layout, same as LotFP, so you can read and play all 3 games for free if you wish.

[@daniellugo6461]

We played "The Sprawl" together, for a minute! I hope you are well!..... I'm DMing 5e in person now. #Basic 🤣

[@itsasecrettoeverybody]

I love your OSR videos. I became a basic fantasy fan after one of them.

[@MrSteveK1138]

Thankfully, the revised Old School Essentials allows for ascending AC

[@EricfromBloatGames]

I'm with you, you really can't go wrong with any of them but if I had to pick one over the others, I'd go with LOTFP because I really dig the changes/tweaks to the rules. I think it makes it a better game overall.

[@VhaidraSaga]

Agreed.

[@fchrisb804]

As much as I own OSE Classic and Advanced Fantasy and love the layout, I have to say that like the tweaks done to Basic Fantasy RPG. For my group who like 5e this is the clear winner for our group and the cost and optional rules are just hands down awesome. I love Weapons Specialization and extra attacks for Fighters and the optional rules for spell casting into a pseudo vancian spell system.

[@BlackJar72]

I still can't help thinking, if you want an "authentic" experience D&D from a certain era just get reprints of the D&D rules from that era. If you want a rethinking and/or remixing of sources it makes sense to make a new game, and this is what Basic Fantasy does.

[@itsasecrettoeverybody]

I agree with you on the second part. But to get a reprint of the old books is not an option. They are a mess, a pile of disorganized, and some times unclear, rules spreed through multiple sources and books. So even if you want a authentic experience it is much more convenient to pick up a modernized version. Don't forget the OSR movement started with OSRIC, a compendium of the AD&D 1st edition rules with more clear rule descriptions.

[@robbabcock_]

@@itsasecrettoeverybody I guess I don't "get" this. I easily learned to play D&D from the Holmes set in '79...how can grown adults capable of holding down a job or drive a car NOT be able to understand the minimal rules set of old D&D?😂

[@itsasecrettoeverybody]

@@robbabcock_ Because most of the time they were playing it wrong.

[@itsasecrettoeverybody]

@@robbabcock_ And I didn't said they are hard to learn, I said they are disorganized. If you have a more organized version, quicker to read and check, without the old mistakes and broken rules (there are some ambiguous rules in most of the old books), why use the old mess?

[@daddystabz]

The unified tome version of OSE has the option for ascending AC. The Advanced supplement allows you to separate race from class.

[@krystal2423]

Oh man, you brought up Astonishing Swordsman of Hyperboria, hell yeah, that is a GREAT system.

[@thenachomancandysavage4074]

want to start running bfrpg but I have got into tabletop with dungeon crawl classics,osr all around

[@GlenHallstrom]

I'll have to take another look at LotFP. I had the Grindhouse Edition and was not quite happy (I felt that you couldn't divorce the rules from the setting, which I didn't care for). Now it's on to 2E it might be worth looking at again.

[@ivanmike1968]

The first time I played it we played it as fantasy D&D. Kind of AD&D in tone. Worked fine.

[@lordchaz2k]

Great vid Ivan. I remember growing up back in the 80s and playing basic but at that time it was kind of frowned upon as if you were playing the kids version of D&D. All the other guys were just interested in AD&D because of the extra big boy rules and extra races and classes. Its amazing now how so many people are appreciating these rules now more than back then.

[@weirdguy564]

I played Palladium RPGs. Having an armor value that goes up just makes sense. In Palladium Fantasy, you have to roll a 1D20+weapon skill strike bonus. If you get a 5 or more (not hard), you hit the target. If you are under the armor rating of that target, you hit that guy's armor and do damage to that. Armor has its own hit points called Structural Damage Capacity, and even loses armor rating as it gets damaged at 50% and again at 33% until its done and stops being armor when out of its own structure points hits zero. If you hit above the armor rating, then you hit the man inside thru a weak point, or maybe you pierced thru the armor like a movie star or video game character can always seem to manage. I'm looking at you, Ezio Auditore in the Assassins Creed 2 trailer. He knifes two papal guards right thru their breast plates?!? That being said, combat in Palladium Fantasy is usually and opposed roll. The other guy can parry my attack, armor or no armor. So he also rolls a 1D20+parry bonus, and he can stop my attack if he rolls equal or higher. Armor is nice, but you still parry just to save wear and tear on it, so you nearly always do so. There rarely is a reason not to.

[@igniaulfsborg8946]

Insightful comparison. Thank you!

[@Atalanta1313]

I'm not sure what you changed. But I am glad I can watch your videos again.

[@sunsin1592]

The funny thing about the current fetishization of B/X is that back in the day, we all "graduated" from B/X to AD&D and/or just mixed them together, sort of like Labyrinth Lord Advanced. But now it seems like everyone is holding up B/X as the Holy Grail of Old School gaming. I like both B/X and 1e and we're currently doing an OSR mash-up of Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea and Advanced Labyrinth Lord. I just find it funny how B/X gets so much love these days. And Ivan, favoring ascending armor class is like rooting for the Cobra Kai. Just no, man.

[@henrykorvus6954]

sunsin1592 In that case, “sweep the leg”

[@VhaidraSaga]

Strike first. Strike hard. No mercy

[@terrystreet6875]

All of these are great but Lamentations wins by a nose in my opinion. Excellent game and his tweaks are fantastic

[@VhaidraSaga]

Agreed.

[@freddaniel5099]

Thanks for another insightful look at three of the better OSR products in our hobby. I have enjoyed all three featured here as well as Labyrinth Lord, Swords & Wizardry, Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea, Delving Deeper, Blueholme, DCC and several other OSR systems. I agree they all have their strong points and offer food for thought. My point is that as much as I enjoy reading and experimenting with the new systems, for running a game, my go-to is increasingly going back to the TSR originals. I have frankly found them unbeatable in giving me the game experience I find most satisfying. To be sure, my experience with the newer games has greatly influenced how I approach ODD, B/X, AD&D and BECMI, and how I referee the TSR systems, make rulings at the table and houserules (if any), all has changed/improved thanks to the insights drawn from the videos like yours, discussions and newer products I have been exposed to. Just curious if you or others have recently given the TSR originals a try again?

[@ivanmike1968]

B/X essentials IS 1981 B/X, so at the moment I’m playing an original 😉

[@krystal2423]

The only thing I don't like about Basic Fantasy is its spells. I feel like spells should be more powerful, the way they are in B/X. I have never played an essentials game, but I also don't think I'm interested in it. I will say I really like LotFP, but I don't think anything can really beat B/X, and a friend of mine made a fun combat supplement for it that my group uses often. As far as which is the best, I think it just comes down to preference and what it is that you want out of your game. Personally, I'll stick with Moldvay B/X

[@Hushashabega]

Though I usually play my own home-brew system (about 20% B/X, 40% OD&D, 10% AD&D, and about 30% my own alterations and subsystems) I'm really intrigued by the White Hack. It's got so many innovative ideas and yet feels so delightfully old-school. I've yet to find anyone to play it with though.

[@egyptian316]

B/X Essentials is my current choice. It's so clean and well put together, so easy to find absolutely anything. I like Lamentations just fine, but there's some sticking points-no monster stats, the changes to the spell list, objectionable art (doesn't bother me, but I have friends who don't care for it).

[@hadeseye2297]

Monster stats for LotFP? First it's 17th century. Secondly people can be much more horrific than any monster from D&D manuals. Third thing is that Raggi stated in the book why there are no stats. All in all it's a mixture of our world + weird ideas, with a little bit of fantasy on top of that. Crystal headed children, or magic items like Jesus Christ's dick (Eldritch Cock supplement). For me Raggi is doing very good job. All the libtards can crap their pants. You play the game the way you want. "Don't like it? Leave it."

[@egyptian316]

@@hadeseye2297 This seems like a disproportionate amount of outrage.

[@hadeseye2297]

@@egyptian316 Those words you written: "This SEEMS" are very important here. Watch: RPC 2018: Lamentations of the Flame Princess [ENG] It's an interview with Raggi, where he states same thing he wrote multiple times, in his or his coworkers releases, that currently all the media (including big rpg publishers) are too safe. I wouldn't call that "disproportionate amount of outrage". You play the way you like. If I would be doing game I can only give some advices, but it's up to GMs and players what they will do with it. Recent editions of Vampire the Masquerade or Warhammer, showed their SJWish concern adding multiple safety pages. That's an absurd. Either you (not You, but about people in general) are an total idiot or not. And we can see with our own eyes that NPCs (no pun intended) infested rpg industry as well. An rpg titled #Feminism that you can purchase on drivethru? Really? A game about being a femiNazi? Or words about considering playing sexualy not straight character in D&D? It's in 5th edition. It's obvious who is making these games. I wouldn't even piss on these fuckers. I'm a customer not a brain dead consumer who will buy whatever shit they will release. Simply. SJW product? No money from me = no support for libtards.I can and I will pay for a product made by people conserned about the game itself, and their costumores. Not for the one made by political lunatics, who use game as their private platform for political propaganda. Raggi sees that. He just puts it in different words.Cenzorship is cenzorship. I'm Polish. I remeber times when Poland was still under soviet shoes. Libtards are just the same. And that why I considerLotFP being a great thing. Not only on game level, but also political one. It is a middle finger shown straight in the faces of all those SJW censors. Watch the interview. You will learn what shit his players do!

[@SecretShopKeep]

Blueholme hits all the targets for me.

[@Susrek]

Indeed!

[@VhaidraSaga]

LotFP for me, it is so simple and logical. Quick creation of characters and such.

[@waltersobchak7275]

Cats doing what cats do best

[@GeorgiosD90]

What a good video!

[@user-ci1wg5gh2t]

Curious about the fiddly rules comment. I have these books and to me, they seem the least fiddly osr out there right now. Thanks for the vids

[@michaelreynolds5145]

Excluding free PDFs, BFRP is the most inexpensive, which matters to some people. I’m a beginner - so I have an honest and sincere question: why not just play the original B/X D&D? Been searching the web and haven’t found an answer. Why not just play the original?

[@ivanmike1968]

No reason not to. The PDFs are available.

[@michaelreynolds5145]

ivanmike1968 thanks

[@michaelmorrissey5631]

You certainly could but B/XE OSE is all about ease of use, it’s really just a better organized version of old B/X. The rules are identical.

[@omnibus4445]

So what about Labyrinth Lord? I'm looking at all of these but LL keeps coming up in my searches too.

[@ivanmike1968]

LL is a clone of BX as well. I think BX essentials does a slightly better job. They are completely compatible with one another though

[@Susrek]

A good comparison would be BlueHolme, B/X Essentials, Whitebox: FMAG

[@erikmartin4996]

You know there’s really no big deal with descending AC you just reverse the die rolls ie roll 4 or less to hit AC 4 1s become awesome 😀

[@nerzenjaeger]

HERESY!

[@PeterKoperdan]

Descending AC is counterintuitive. From a design perspective it is not optimal. Thousands of confused players agree.

[@halehortler5349]

@@PeterKoperdan i think thaco is an elegant system; a single stat no tables or charts. also, a diminishing target seems intuitive to me. people could try just not being stupid.

[@PeterKoperdan]

@@halehortler5349 It's got nothing to do with diminishing target. A humanoid in plate mail is actually a bigger target than a naked humanoid. However, it's much harder to harm someone in plate mail than someone naked. A dragon is easy to hit because it's huge, but dragonhide is hard to pierce. THAC0 is an abstraction. Abstractions work better when intuitive. Your hit points rise with your level and so should your armor class. More hit points, more armor, more survivability. The same with damage. More damage, more danger. Why the hell would you make a system with negative damage?

[@halehortler5349]

@@PeterKoperdan im actually dumbfounded youve taken diminishing target to mean literally/physically smaller... dnd was born from wargaming, and many games using 6 sided dice would require you roll low. a 2/6 chance succeeding on a 1s and 2s for example. you just need the numbers stated in the chance. much simpler remembering a 1/6 needs 1s and a 2/6 needs 1s and 2s, rather than 1/6 needing a 6, or 2/6 needing 5s 6s. anything with a percentile chance to succeed (ie all of the rogue abilities) require rolling under. ability checks required rolling under your ability score. higher numbers represent better odds lower numbers represent worse odds. so lowering AC to represent a diminishing target seems perfectly in line. i still stand by the elegance of looking at your thaco and a targets AC and knowing what you need to roll, without consulting any other info charts or tables. also i dont understand what you mean by a system with negative damage.

[@MrRourk]

B/X get the B/X Companion it really opens the game up. I play in a group that uses it. We use the Mystara Setting. My Character is a Minrothad Sea Elf.

[@MrRourk]

B/X Companion Review grognardia.blogspot.com/2010/10/review-bx-companion.html?m=1

[@MrRourk]

My Players are very happy since we converted over to Mythmere White Box, White Box Omnibus, and White Box Gothic. What they don't know there is a dash of White Box Zombies in the game. I started running them in the Midderlands Setting. It is awesome with White Box Gothic!

[@Lcirex]

Interesting vid. Also background bed cat.

[@waltersobchak7275]

Love cats especially my 8

[@Susrek]

BFRPG is not for me. Everything about it rubs me the wrong way. B/X is solid. I don't have enough exp with LotFP.

[@ChrisGonnerman]

Wow, everything?

[@hadeseye2297]

Yeah these books are very cheap, if you order them in bulk. Destinations = Central Europe.

[@boobio1]

None of the above, Castles & Crusades.