Louder's Not Better (Here's Proof)

[@BlackCouchstudio]

Your snare analogy is spot-on to mine. If I can't feel the snare hitting me, the mix isn't done, to my ears. There's a delicate balance there.

[@kabilanbaskaran6813]

The analogy of punching distance with fists was genius. You are an excellent teacher

[@CrustaceousB]

It is the exception to any rule that creates and sustains the Integrity of that rule. The prerequisite assumptions behind any rule are what allow it to exist. If those assumptions are not met the rule is not applicable. This all being a fancy way of explaining that this is genre specific. You are correct that the vast majority of music people make is better when not over compressed. But in many modern subgenres of metalcore, deathcore, slam, grindcore and quite alot of electronic genres on the darker/heavier side, the over compressed and even clipping sounds are intended. Even modern trap metal uses this intentionally. The clarity you're aiming for is not necessary and often discouraged. So as long as we're talking about the majority of genres, I agree with you entirely.

[@claudemanning6578]

I think the common mistake people make when mastering is being too focused on loudness and not the tone of the master. The point of mastering was to give the mix that finishing touch and to preserve the sound of the mix while making it sound commercially appealing.

[@AZRockslide42]

I have been saying this for year. Thank you so much for making this video.

[@MixingGBP]

I keep learning that even if your song has the same exact LUFS value as your favorite pro mix, the pro mix can still sound louder than yours. It is the low mids that can make a song seem louder despite having same LUFS as another song. My mixes always seem to have low mids that are too low, therefore my mixes always sound quieter than a pro mix even if I mix to the same LUFS value as the pro mix.

[@Steviee8]

Your punch analogy is on point and so true!

[@roderickranises8974]

Punch analogy is gold. Helpful as always. Thanks Joe!

[@gpstudio]

I heard a statement a while back that the music is in the silence as much as it is in the noise and when you drop something out and bring it back in, such as in a drop it causes a greater impact. I see this happening here as well with the snare on a smaller scale. I love your punching analogy. Thanks Joe!

[@philz7227]

Good point. Effective speakers can gather everyone's attention by speaking softly. A soft passage in music preps the listener for the next part.

[@MichealClair]

ON POINT brother!!! Thank you!

Joe, I agree with your observations. One thing to consider, though. As far as I know Spotify do apply loudness normalization on most platforms, but not all. If I'm not mistaken, the iOS , Android and Windows apps do offer the feature ( which as we all know is turned on by default) , but the web player does not have this feature.( " The web player and third-party devices (such as speakers and TVs) do not use intensity normalization.") On KZbin Music ( I know it is muuuuch less used , but I do hehehe) there is no normalization on the web player ( I know this for a fact because I made some "reference files" from songs I like by routing the audio output to Reaper, using the "Virtual Audio Cable" drivers.

[@daaamn001]

Thx for that Information!!❤

[@marclevesque4710]

To my ears the quieter one, aside from a better snare sound, also seems to have better balance on the cymbals. The louder one has a cymbals sound that seems too washy to me. Great video and excellent explanation.

[@adamwasthefirstman]

I've been doing more mastering sessions lately, and the most immediate thing I learned was exactly as you describe. I even sent two versions to the latest client to explain why the final version of the last project was quieter overall than the previous one. I like squashy, vibey stuff, but pushing too hard in the mastering stage just undoes all the hard work that has been done before. It gets splatty and harsh in unflattering ways.

[@traviscarr1609]

There is definitely validity to this! However, not all people have Loudness Normalization/Sound Check turned on, which would make a -14 LUFS master less competitive than -10 LUFS commercial masters to those listeners. I did a poll on Facebook and Instagram (very official, I know), and only 50% of people had it turned on, and quite a few people didn't even know it was a setting to begin with. It's important to know how far you can push the music, and for the sake of dynamics, favor a quieter master if extra loudness will have a negative impact.

[@kurtz1993]

Interesting findings. 🤔 I believe that, in Spotify, Loudness Normalization is turned on by default and maybe that's why most people didn't know about it. Sound Check, in Apple Music, you have to opt-in and turn it on. I may be wrong about Spotify if the settings are synced, tho.

[@PACKTdotSPACE]

​@@kurtz1993you're right, it's def on by default

[@Julampatv]

Love the punch analogy

[@Whally]

Current DnB is LFUS -1db 😁 I remember during a remix contest, my LFUS was -6, and it was "too quiet"... 😭 In the electronic music, the loudness is not over, and a lot of labels need to overcompress everything...

[@SuperAgentAB]

Wow 😵‍💫

[@teashea1]

Good video and examples. I master all of the songs I produce at -16. This allows the songs to retain good dynamics. Squashing the dynamics is terrible - you are so correct.

[@phantomstudiobr]

Eu te amo Joe.. kisses from Brazil

[@SilverWolf941]

If its mastering, how does the snare have more punch? I'd assume the dynamics are kind of locked into place during the mix, would it be because its not competing as much for the same frequency space between the instruments? The quiet track I'd for sure agree that the snare sounded more impactful in its space, and the loud track sounded lost/harsh in general. I'd like to follow up with a question, I've definitely wrote some overly compressed songs before and was wondering if the statement;(Louder's Not Better) is more relevant to the mix or master?

[@SuperAgentAB]

Everyone has an volume control to turn up or down for themselves.

[@taviqmasteringonline2754]

You can take my word for it or not. On most modern material, thats already pretty aggressive these days, you will start to loose the snare and kick's natural impact maxing out at around -9 LUFS. When you start to get louder, sure yes your track is louder, because you also made the mid range louder but the major percussion elements that really effect the human ear's perspective of perceived loudness and 🥊 literally become flat. Like -------, flat. Oh, well I'm at -8, -7, -6, and my wave form looks fine. 🤦🏾‍♂️Can't stand when people master for the sake of numbers and how things look. What your final imagine looks like and the final sound sounds like actually have very little in common. If you're listening, the track will literally tell you how loud it should be and when you start getting diminished returns regarding loudness. Literally!

[@Ryan-rn3cf]

Yeah that’s the comment I was scrolling for. There are 2 big things people should know. 1. Sometimes the best sounding master is also a square wave from start to finish. 2. If you make your own music long enough, you may find yourself on a terrestrial radio, online radio, etc. What happens next is horrifying. You realize most just buy it off your Bandcamp and hit play. They will not level your track. Especially college radio. So your track will be so embarrassingly quiet over a broadcast that’s low quality to begin with that you’ll wish you just slammed it like everyone else. It all depends on genre and where you want it heard.

[@Artur_Chernyavsky]

Good topic, Joe! Once I've read one famous engineer's post about the difference he had heard between old school rock and modern tracks, and I took a decision to master quieter still dynamically with transients heard.)) I waited for you to tell the steps and methods of compensating this lack of volume by particular EQing and saturating...)

[@rishardlampese8947]

Snare "BREATHES" on the lower volume one. Much more edge information is there - more surface relief. Well done!

[@Mikey__R]

Hey Joe. I heard that some influential people have been recommending switching off normalisation on Spotify, which is certainly an opinion. Not one I agree with, but there you go. I wonder if you have opinions on this opinion?

[@TheMLMGold]

Great illustration. Some of my mixes sound too loud because of all the layers, others sound more spacious because the layers are quieter. But most of my songs end up in the red when it's on 0dB on the master volume after adding all the effects and layers. Does that mean the mix is too loud and should the master volume stay below red at 0dB? If so, how do I achieve that?

[@djvoid1]

It's not how loud you make it, it's how you make it loud... and moreover why

[@natepotter6911]

GREAT video, Joe! I have always tried to stay at -14 lufs or lower as a general standard for the same reasons that you are REALLY good at conveying to all skill levels. Even though I knew why I was doing it, your explanation put it into such simple context that I had to reevaluate why I did it LMFAO. Cheers, mate! Carry on!

[@NeighborlyBoomer]

I just loaded in one of ac/dc remasterd songs from apple music into studio one project page and it came out with a -6 lufs an a tp around -0.7 . The people i mix for demand that the music should be equal loud because if the tracks are lower in volume they may not be taken seriously as a band/group… the -14 and -16 lufs are already casualties of the war. But does anyone here know how to get streaming services to follow their own rules. Sorry if my english suck…

[@patlampo9288]

Yea, I thought the quiet one did sound better to me🙂Thanks Joe for the great tutorial✨

[@hippietrap]

I thibk this is highly genre dependent. In electronic music if you’re not getting to -6 LUFS- even if it’s getting turned down your master will sound quiet compared to bigger artists .

[@daved9665]

Agree, the first one felt more open and dynamic than the second one. Remember CDs? Those LUFs can be off the charts. I recently checked this with a CD track from 2002 and it was in the -6dB LUFS range using my DAW plugin to see. The waveform is a complete box all the way to -0dB. Amazingly, the song is still open sounding and full without feeling squashed to death. As you say, there is something 'magical' about this kind of mastering. Not sure how that is possible.

[@shanonkiyoshi4784]

🤔 ...Interesting. What are you using to rip your CDs, because the Average of the CDs I've ripped (granted, they're mostly Movie Scores & Jazz -- but SOME rock) Average out to be around Negative 16 LUFS...

[@daved9665]

@@shanonkiyoshi4784 I don't recall what I used to rip it back then. I wouldn't think that would matter. The piece was a Celine Dion pop song still on my computer from a video project I did for a client/friend. I just wanted to see what my daw would show since it was markedly louder than anything else I've been working with lately. I don't remember modifying or normalizing it.

[@shanonkiyoshi4784]

@@daved9665 The software used to rip the audio would have it's own built-in limiter/normalization algorithm so it's absolutely important to KNOW which software 😉 I used DBpowerAmp back in the day 🎶😎

[@claudemanning6578]

It sounds like the limiter is squashing the life out of the midrange in the louder one almost to the point there isn't any. I actually prefer the "quieter" mix.

[@Heddybossgh]

Please do make a video about how to make your master sound good in every playback system (tonal balance)

[@SATYAMPARKHE]

I dont think streaming site's loudness algorithms are working anymore!

[@vinny142]

So it's not about being louder, but about compression. That makes more sense. Terminology kind of matters, especially when you're trying to teach.

[@chrisdunnettmusic]

Great analogy Joe...yes Sijo Bruce Lee was known for his 1 inch punch :)

[@DeltaWhiskeyBravo13579]

Like everyone, I think louder is better. However, I personally still want some dynamics. I will not slam everything into the limiter. Some moderate pushing into it, yes. With this one ongoing audio project I'm doing, which is live Church audio into Zoom Meeting and then a Livestream to Vimeo and KZbin concurrently, I do intentionally lessen some dynamics because the older ears listening say the audio cuts in and out. Why? Zoom has a POTS phone bridge, these older listeners are on old tech landline phones. The quiet parts can't be heard by them in this circumstance, because they can't hear the quiet parts of a dynamic speaker (pastor goes from quiet too loud). No worries Super Dave AV guy with his Studio One and plug-ins to the rescue. My solution is a D16 Group Frontier limiter into an LVC Clipper-MAX into the Melda Ultramaximizer. The Frontier is set to bring some up to an output of -6 dBFS. The clipper takes the tops off at about -2 dB according to its meter. The Melda Ultramaximizer brick wall has a ceiling of -1 dBFS. Despite that, I think LUFS is about -12. Signed, Crazy Dave the audio video guy at the Church of God. ☕ PS for mixing and mastering songs, settings will be likely leaning to more dynamics.

[@sseltrek1a2b]

funny- that's what i thought when i compared the snares (the softer recording snare is "punchier" in the mix)...

[@JoeStuffzAlt]

I run into a lot of people that really use compression. Someone will release a "Sing with me" and I wonder about using expanders

[@harveyd_5-11under]

The quieter one had at least some variation within the bar. Not much, but some. The louder one lost all of that. Everyone loses in the loudness wars. The only way to not lose that war is to not engage in the war. Peace.

[@adrianwagner336]

to me the 1st example sounds a bit muffled overall but it may be because of my ears playing trix with the back n forth switchng

[@shanonkiyoshi4784]

On my system the 9 LUFS version sounded like Hot Garbage -- even BEFORE you Level Matched them.

[@treybruce9789]

Night and day

[@DerekPower]

I've used shouting or all-caps as my analogy for the "quest for the loud master": SHOUTING MEANS EXCITEMENT AND EVERYBODY LOVES EXCITEMENT! LET'S MAKE EVERY SINGLE SECOND EXCITING BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE THAT AND IT'S GREAT AND YOU WANT A GREAT THING ALL THE TIME AND WHY ARE YOU GOING AWAY? DON'T YOU WANT TO HEAR MORE EXCITEMENT COMING AT YOU EVERY SINGLE SECOND?! As demonstrated, having constant loudness - and it often makes having your volume meters constantly in or near the red - will get tiresome and overdone. The amusing part is that with all the effort made to get everything in maximum volume, it ends up sounding so flat and lifeless. You paradoxically made something sound quiet all because you wanted it loud. At any rate, nice job as always =]

[@redsearhythmrockers2738]

You may benefit from the cruel tutelage of Pai Mei.

[@buckycore]

This is one of those topics just as touchy as "what's the best DAW" (or, if there are any guitarists here: the whole "the material of the body does/doesn't affect the tone.*shmh*) There're so many conflicting arguments about this topic, all stated by people with way more experience than I have. And I've concluded it's almost best to just ignore KZbin videos on the topic and let real world experience be what dictates how loud your masters should be. I have a suspicion there's no "one size fits all" for each type of project and genre

[@haikubop9606]

What is LUFS, and how does one see it within their DAW?

[@MixingGBP]

It is basically a measurement of loudness based upon how our ears work. You can use a plugin to measure it. There are many free and paid ones. I use Youlean loudness meter, which has both a free and paid version. Works well.

[@Emmyisacapy]

in Spotify at least, there is a setting to normalise all songs you play - are you saying Spotify do their normalisation BEFORE it gets to that setting? Or are you talking about that setting?

[@KariKauree]

That setting is on by default. If you turn it off, you turn off the normalization and you hear the tracks at their mastered volume.

[@ProductionAdvice]

@@KariKauree ^^ This. 75% of musicians and artists turn it off, but only 17% of "regular" users do. So most people hear things with normalisation enabled.

[@abj358]

More cymbals, please.

[@DrProgNerd]

The snare transients were all but lost in the louder mix. The 'crack' was mushed into the rest of the mix. I'm a fan of drums. I like to hear defined snare, kick, hi-hat and ride accents. Some may see drums as a vehicle that carries the song - and not want to hear them poke out. It's a matter of personal preference. For me the quieter mix was better.

[@JorgeChorao]

My brain: louder master is Bruce Lee... 😅

[@kadiummusic]

Then why are you putting a limiter on your mix bus to make them louder? 🤔

[@HomeStudioCorner]

Some loudness is good, but too much loudness is not.

[@MFMRecordLabel]

Honestly this seems more like an EQ/ compression issue not a “loudness” issue. -9lufs isn’t even as loud as most professional masters.

[@AldeanLeger]

How did you match the LUFS?

[@MixingGBP]

I do it by using Youlean loudness meter. You drag and drop the file in this plugin and it tells you the LUFS reading. Do that for both and then adjust the volume of the track(s) until they measure the LUFS value you are after. Best of all Youlean is free (and they also have a pro version that costs a few bucks) and it is a top-notch plugin.

[@Sweetmanthanks]

I fall into the trap of over-loudness sometimes when I'm trying to "brighten up" my master. Always a mistake.

[@deadislander]

I prefer the louder one, I like things clipped Hella hard. I feel like it's such a taste thing. it's all correct

[@TheRobGuard]

Loudness is a trap imo, at least when mixing. I never aim for it, it will come naturally when mastering anyways. There are so many other important things to do when mixing.

[@tlawhon]

I agree with you about the snare, but I don't think you want me to punch you, even with only an inch back... just sayin' 😄

[@danielfmyers]

Bass disappeared in the loud one

[@fieryinsane]

Ozzy's new album is horrendous. It's a victim of the loudness wars... 😢

[@gregorygoodellofficial]

Okay... so... this little nugget of wisdom is apocryphal and it is a little disingenuous. The mix and also the mastering were both done badly. Mastering to -14 deliberately LUFFs is a sure fire way to get a limp, unremarkable project. Hell... I have mixes that will weigh in at -14 LUFFs before mastering without using limiters or having anything on the Master Bus. Also -9 LUFFs is moderately hot... during the volume wars some stuff would hover around -6 which is wild... but that is the reality... and when those are turned down to -14 LUFFs they will absolutely crush the tunes Mastered deliberately to -14 LUFFs.

[@xMaSSxHyST3RiA]

youre a little nugget

[@GuidoRighi]

hey Joe, i partially agree with you BUT lufs is far from perfect. send a mix you did to a pro mastering engineer. then normalize your mix and the mastered one to the same lufs integrated, 99% the mastered one will sound louder even with the same lufs.

[@xMaSSxHyST3RiA]

nobody said LUFS are perfect, including Joe

[@SuperAgentAB]

So called "pro mastering engineer" might have tricks on their sleeves.