It's too early to judge Master Modes

[@madmechanic7976]

The fundamental problem with MM is Newtonian physics in a dog fight in space.

[@TUROCK320]

yup.. WWII warbird dogfight = BFM In Space on SC = bad SCM, bad geometry combat, no tacticool battle fight manoeuver, just a "rail shooter" DCS = the truth... 100% BFM / 100% CAC / 100% BVR = Deeper engagement... Deeper knowledge ... just deep.. SC = flight model is at 50% complete after 10 years ... "coming soon tm" "Infinite salt"

[@louhodo5761]

Unfortunately SC never had true Newtonian physics. It was a pseudo version that kind of fudged the numbers to make up for the lack of in depth information the game would need to do such calculations... see DCS, FalconBMS or Kerbal Space Program.

[@TintGoesFast]

The more I see different people offer their perspectives on this debate, the more I'm reminded of a conversation I had recently in the Frontier discord. Part of the disagreement we're seeing here boils down to a fundamental question about the nature of science fiction as a genre: do you prefer that your setting have larger-than-life heroes, or no? I remember leading a Jumptown event about a year into my time playing the game, where our team of 7 or 8 was holding the site against a few players at a time. After about an hour, I push out to investigate a ping, and I see a name I recognize, one that's attached to a very selective PvP combat org. Immediately I start issuing new orders to the team, tightening our ranks and readying for combat, because I know that if this group is here in force, we're going to be lucky to get out with the drugs we've already loaded, and even if it's just one or two of them, it's going to be a hell of a fight. The design philosophy of master modes seems to want to directly end the latter possibility. Call me crazy, but I want a universe where the right pilot's name can strike fear into a much larger force, because they know that some people can fight at many times their number against casual players. I know some people would prefer just the opposite, where the fight will always come down to the math of who brought the best ships and best loadouts and the best counters for their opponent's ships and loadouts. But to me, that feels soulless. Give me heroes! Give me a universe where the right pilot in the right ship can hold the line against five, because he's put in the hours. Give me a reason to aim as high as I can, and practice every second I can, because I know that work will be rewarded, that my skill will be rewarded.

[@jamesatkins7592]

Well said

[@LogandiDrekasol]

I like the sentiment here. And I have been on both sides of this equation, but for me personally, wiping the floor of a big team with one or two people is not that satisfying. I like things to be a constant challenge. Recalling my early days, watching hopelessly while my team got taken down by one skilled pilot, and repeating over and over, "I can't help you unless you slow down" was not particularly fun (thicker atmo has helped here, tbf). There was a big issue with the prior model and how easy it was for little ships to kite big ships. It's still a problem, but better than before.

[@JL-rj9fl]

@@LogandiDrekasol Yeah, it's brought engagements closer (or it seems to have from my experience playing with it so far). A lot of people talk about it removing skill, but it doesn't seem to from my experience. You still have to fly the ships and get your guns on target, and a good crew still pays dividends. I like the accessibility of combat now, it's going to be key to a healthy game in the future. The old flight model just didn't seem to click with CR's vision of WWII combat in space - it didn't feel right for something that was supposed to feel like Wing Commander as was originally pitched.

[@TintGoesFast]

@@JL-rj9fl it's not that skill has been removed from the equation entirely, and I don't think anyone arguing in good faith would claim that. All else being equal, a pilot with more training and seat time will still come out ahead in a fight. But the size of the gap in numerical odds that can be overcome by skill has definitely been shrunk, and my position would be that the extent of that change is too far for it to be the right call in the long term. You and others may disagree, and hopefully we see lots more conversations like this one where people give it a little more nuance than 'master modes is the best flight model ever' or 'master modes ruined the game', because as always the truth is likely somewhere in the middle.

[@JL-rj9fl]

@@TintGoesFast Great points, I think MM is a good starting point. Definitely room for improvements for sure! It still doesn't feel "right", but I can't quantify exactly what right feels like. I'm excited for future iterations and keeping a positive, and open mind.

[@ripl0x]

I hate the entire concept of the mode switching and the different speed caps and whatnot. So yes, I will judge it "early" because the vision for it is not at all what I want to see out of the flight model.

[@CellDE]

well the mode switching was made to over gamepad players (console gameplay) a option to use all the functions on limited keys, by double, triple ... assign function to the same key ... however i dont like this as well.

[@mattvmalone]

Oh no, it wasn't what YOU wanted. Oh dear, what ever shall we do..... 😂

[@EricVidfarne]

My ship shouldn't slow down just because I change flight modes in space, unless I actively break/retro thrust. That's what takes me out of it every time. Jus feels bad and wrong.

[@LoudGuns]

@@EricVidfarne I agree that the transitions are quite jarring, it’d be interesting to see if the speed restrictions could still be applied (i.e. you need to be within SCM to give power to shields and weapons) but speed transition could be more seemless.

[@jebidyah]

@@LoudGuns This is exactly what I have been saying as well. You get the same effect, just much less immersion breaking...

[@georgek2574]

It’s a balance problem as someone could go fast in Nav and switch quickly to target someone to do a hit and run while other person couldn’t catch up

[@EricVidfarne]

@@georgek2574 so, let them. That sounds like a skilled maneuver.

[@Papp263-pi4kl]

Each ship auto applies thrusters to compensate for the change in flight mode... yes jarring, but also foreseen and should be expected... although, it should (at least in space) be more gradual... like that of The Expanse... if you understand what I am getting at...

[@brandonlt6434]

MM killed the game for me. Legit sucked the joy out of flying for me. I use to play at least twice a week(more if it was a stable patch) and now im just poking my head in once a month to test the water. Unfortunately the pool is not fine....

[@Mr_Beaubles]

No, the F it isn't too early to judge MM. From the first fight to the last, every fight has become a slow strafing dps competition at close range. Over, and over again. It single handedly ruined what was one of the most interesting and potentially innovative flight models in existence, with at least some regard to atmospheric and gravitational effects of being closer to a planet... it took DCS, and put it in space in a space ship. The possibilities were endless, but because humans are inherently apes that copy each other with a very limited capacity for abstract thought and innovation, everyone just held 'w' and turned to put nose on the enemy, resulting in "jousting" fights happening too often. A change needed to be made, sure, but MM was way to sever of a velocity nerf, resulting in extremely boring and uncreative combat across the board. The weapon balance changes are fine, though they should apply the use of gimbals in a diffrrent way because 50% rof reduction is just nonsense for even auto gimbals. Should be something closer to 15%. But for me, MM alone has been the worst decision CIG have ever made in the 10 years ive been a backer.

[@CB-io8oi]

MMs has also removed for me a lot of the big ship piloting fun in its current iteration. One of my most vivid memories from the last 3 odd years of playing SC is landing a Reclaimer in a Hangar at New Babbage during a storm. I felt like I had won a end game boss fight lol. Anyone who flew one from that time would agree that huge lumbering ship didn't fly in atmosphere, you were just constantly interrupting its falling ha ha. This was completely appropriate and the sense of achievement from landing the Reclaimer in atmosphere was real. Landing this chunk of ship in atmosphere was something that took your complete concentration, you set all power to engines and it was a real challenge. This elevated the big ship experience from just an arrival at enough credits so I'll have that now - to a feeling that required you to have a level of experience and skill to be able to actually pilot it. In other words, exactly what it should be. As your time in game and skill improves you can progress to using the big ships from a skill requirement point, not just aUEC point. As it stands in MMs you don't have that at all, big ships feel like they fly exactly the same as fighters just slower. You have idiot buttons (being able to drop landing gear and effectively stop the ship regardless of size and get you out of trouble with your poor skill and judgement) and this would be an example of how it takes the skill out of flying the biggies. I hope the further development of MMs brings some of this back, the experience took skill development and was all the richer for it. You can still have your easier flight experience on starter ships to encourage beginners, BUT the progression to biggies should require the skills as well.

[@LogandiDrekasol]

Most of the issues cited here are more to do with ship tunings (which always change) and the landing precision mode setting. You can turn the latter off and stay in Nav mode to have nearly the identical experience you cite landing your Reclaimer at New Babbage today.

[@mattstephen7494]

Just turn off precision mode

[@squirrellordsgaming2772]

I think people want us to experience master modes longer so that we forget what we are missing from the legacy mode. There was much more excitement in flying in the game. Master mode has done much to kill that excitement in the name of inclusivity.

[@dex6147]

MM sucks, feels bad, and may kill SC. It made all of the problems it was supposed to fix, worse. This game will end like SW squadrons because of the movement restrictions that most people that support MM completely ignore. MM hate is NOT premature, in an over decade old flight game that still hasn't decided what it's FM will be. The old model would have been better to tune than introduce a new FM that feels like garbage.

[@asiftalpur3758]

I have stopped playing since master modes dropped. I tried it I genuinely wanted to give it a shot and a fair shake. I went so far to blame myself for shortcomings. After interacting with people around sc community I saw there were more people frustrated with MM then those who liked it. I think it should be removed simply because it's immersion breaking and too arcade-like. I believe they worked on it for 3 years, and all future changes are just small ones and everytime someone brings out a foundational issue with MM, the dev in charge comes in and says "sorry, not possible before 4.1" which just means don't expect real changes for a year atleast. It's just insane to me that a game is taking a whole election cycle to nail down core experiences. Especially when it comes to flight.

[@FemboySylveon]

No, waiting will just make people compliant with the bad flight model as they forget of the old one. That doesn't make it better. Noone is saying the flight model doesn't have redeemable and good ideas. The problem is Yogi refuses to evolve and beta test the flight model through multiple itterations and constant changes. That's the problem.

[@cmdrstarscream67]

The iteration pace is abysmal I argue this is the biggest problem there isn't a proper cycle of development and direct feedback on a critical part of the game. They alluded to using AC to do experimental changes but that abruptly ended after PTU . I agree with you that its not irredeemable but there are many issues that havent even been recognized yet.

[@foltrap]

Was playing daily until MM, for me it was a deal-breaker. I can't even pinpoint exactly why, it just feels bad

[@younboyce7068]

Killed it

[@struckbydog8629]

I personally find MM combat to be really boring and simplistic. I find it really hard to have confidence that CIG will balance it when Its been ten+ years and they still don't have the flight model locked down.

[@mattvmalone]

You realize Star Citizen isn't even the main game they've been working on right?

[@mattp1337]

I think the larger issue with Master Modes is that they are fixed presets, but surely they won't stay like this. If they are just an early taste of customizable engineering settings, then it makes so much more sense, and all existing critiques simply crumble away. Imagine the final game with engineering systems fully functional, a working ship simulation with energy production and consumption by components, tweakable relay networks, etc. It's a lot of complexity to manage, and you can't reasonably react to all situations by tuning the ship. Or rather, you could but only if you had preset modes like Cruising, Combat, Low Power, etc. If you prefer to name those things Condition Red/Yellow/Green/etc, Stealth Mode, you could go ahead and rename them. Further, a preset could define settings for the entire ship, or it could only apply to a subset. This could be useful for larger multicrew ships, when you have delegated crew to roles like Chief Engineer, Gunnery Officer, etc. Then the mode change might be further customizable by that department head, since presumably you trust them to understand the systems better and react with an appropriate sub-mode or custom settings as they see fit within the systems where they have authority. But even if you're in a single seat fighter, you could redefine default modes as you see fit, limited only by the capabilities of the components you have installed. If you wanted to power just your quantum drive and weapons, while depowering everything else, nothing would stop you. Diagetic realism, infinite possibilities for creative captains and miracle worker engineers to save the day because they know their ship inside and out. Meanwhile, players new to the game, or new to a particular ship, can use the default Mode definitions until they dedicate time to defining their own. The complexity is hidden, but you can get under the hood any time you want to. Best of both worlds (and yes, that is a Star Trek reference: so by all means divert all power to the deflector dish and burn it out in a one-shot blast). In my mind, this HAS to be where they're going with this, and therefore Master Modes as it exists is just a simplified stopgap.

[@Chase_The_Calm_Gaming]

In space, Forward, up, left is a straight line, found Yogi rather insulting in his past post. Gforce punishiment should affect your actual health if you hit to many G's. BSG style straffe would be a dream for me, just make those high speeds easier for missles or torps to acquire.

[@Roboticus_Prime_RC]

They worked on it for 3 years. It's a trash concept with trash implementation.

[@MareLooke]

Even longer, since it's just a re-run of a model that failed spectacularly once before.

[@nixlad]

I don't think so, I think the fact that it is so divisive is a testament to the fact that it is implemented poorly. If it was a good idea, we wouldn't be arguing about it all the time

[@maxjergens]

We've had sufficient time to assess it, or are you simply endorsing Chris Roberts as one would for another PC game or IGN? Which free ship did Chris Roberts offer you for a favorable review of Master Mode?

[@GreebsCitizen]

One of your best vids, great overview of the surface of SC on the large scale

[@Jac70]

I wonder how the dogfighting experience would change if the acceleration of ships was brought down. So you could still travel at 1000m/s (or more) when needed, but it might take 60 seconds to get to that kind of speed. In a fight when you are stopping and turning constantly you would be unlikely to reach much more than 200-300m/s.

[@angrybirdman42]

Bigger gun wins

[@theamericanaromantic]

60 seconds?? No

[@nuanil]

To an extent, but realistically the primary way to do it is: reduce weapons ranges dramatically, stop giving fighters size 4 weapons, stop giving interceptors weapons over size 2, no turret should be smaller than 2 sizes below the largest weapon on the ship, and engine power should affect maneuverability and not boost recharge. That way a nimble fighter has to be close to do damage, and has to chose between being nimble, or being one shot by a multi-crew turret.

[@Visceryon-ACIV]

MM seems to be the first step in a process that supports longer engagements and tactical warfare. The system as a whole is finished yet. But when you think about your favourite starship battles from other genres/media, those large scale battles with many classes of ship involved, there is almost always pre-planning, travel, then deployment involved. That's what I see MM as. Get where you're going, get ready and go. If you want to hot drop into the middle of a battle, that's a risk. And having your shields need to fire up and weapons power up is part of the risk. Current gameplay may not support it entirely but you can see where it's going and I think it's going to be a different story when we are able to have contested areas that require orgs to battle it out. Some people are going to shine as OPS and Generals in the verse. It will be awsome 😊

[@LoudGuns]

@@Visceryon-ACIV I think this is where I come from - in an MMO it’s not going to be about individual aces, it’s going to be about fleets and squadrons. And a big part of the skill expression then comes from logistics and organisation as much as getting the crosshair on the pip.

[@Visceryon-ACIV]

@LoudGuns exactly, I can't wait :D don't get a lot of time to get on atm but always looking to see when org events are incase they line up. Seeing a fleet embark regardless of the gameplay loop always gives me a feeling of awe.

[@RicoZaid_]

IIRC Avenger1 just wants 100 more SCM speed so fighters can dodge a bit. Assuming weapon speeds don't invalidate that.

[@RedHornSSS]

he also wants lower weapon muzzle speed & max range, which will both mandates a closer engagement distance & make dodge more viable

[@nixlad]

@@RicoZaid_ Who cares about A1 except sweaty nerds?

[@nuanil]

If it's not a master modes problem, then there was never a need to go to master modes in the first place..... and so we should just go back and make all the changes because anything that would fix master modes would have fixed 3.22.

[@NintendoGzus]

It's year 12. "How ships fly" is still completely in flux. They say no further changes to the current flight model for the next year or so. Which likely means 2 years or more in SC time. What are we even doing anymore? We've just reworked the flight model for the 5th? 7th? time. I don't remember. 4 years from now we'll do it again. At what point does it become clear that they aren't even trying to make a game anymore? 15 years? 20? 25?

[@SultanDesync]

13 years in: "let them cook" this is a goddam death cult. Lol

[@melandor0]

Wow you REALLY hate MM huh

[@rhade03]

We are 12 years in. It is not too early to give feedback on the direction they're going, especially when Yogi is posting things on Spectrum that makes it sound like the problems *still* aren't being understood. We can't keep saying eArLy DaYs, this kind of attitude is why we have nothing close to a game after close to a billion in funding and over a decade in development. The flight model is one of the core mechanics of the game, and we can't keep refusing to hold CIG's feet to the fire. It is absurd that MM has been hardly touched since it was introduced, and Yogi has made some comments that make it sound like even 4.0 won't be bringing any meaningful changes. I don't like MM, but I can accept it's here to stay. My hope is that they're able to address the concerns of players who want a much deeper level of depth and the room for skill expression within it -- they have largely swung the pendulum far too hard in the other direction from where it was and sucked almost all skill out of combat. What I can't accept is that it seems like the flight team at CIG still doesn't understand the issues with the flight model (see A1's most recent video highlighting this), the rate of iteration on Master Modes, and a seeming unwillingness to prioritize it. They've made statements that they've been pulled off to work on other things, which would explain the long iteration cycle, but that's even more concerning which calls the judgment of those making decisions into question. Mismanagement, misunderstanding of issues, and a worrying trend that is largely pushing the game in a very casual / arcade-like direction where it will lose any sense of soul or identity as it blends into the crowd of casual-pleasing games that you pick up for 20 hours and never touch again (see: Starfield). I do like your videos and think you make mostly fair takes, but I don't think we get to call anything "premature" from the standpoint of criticizing CIG at this point.

[@sirbonobo3907]

Whats worse than MM is the new green backround in the universe.

[@aforgottenhero]

I disagree, it is NOT too early to judge MMs. Prior to the MM update each ship felt and handled differently and part of the game was learning the characteristics of your favorite ships. I almost gave each ship a personality of its own and really helped the immersion of the experience. After MMs were implemented you could boil down the flight characteristics into 5-6 presets, with every ship in the game falling into one of them. MMs felt like a massive step back in terms of flight model characteristics and depth. Overall flying in MMs feels like a cheapened, watered down arcade like experience that is VERY prone to abuse. It feels like a flight model one would expect to experience in a single player arcade flying game like Ace Combat, with Single-Stage to Orbit and Interplanetary capable ships feeling like prop driven airplanes rather then space ships or even jets. One of my favorite examples of how MMs kills the immersion and takes most of the enjoyment out of flying in SC is comparing the Drake Corsair's and the Origin 400i's flight model before and after the MM update. Prior to the update the Corsair was a slow lumbering beast with a terrifying amount of forward facing firepower, after the update it is still very much the same however it got a slight speed increase going from `950m/s to a flat 1000m/s. The 400i on the other hand used to be one of my favorite daily drivers due to its incredibly high top speed and acceleration characteristics, meaning that in a 1v1 engagement often times your best course of action was to run away. And the 400i was capable of outrunning a lot of dangerous ships, and leaving slow lumbering ships like the Corsair in the dust. Now the 400i has the same top speed and acceleration as the Corsair, even having very similar turning characteristics as the much more heavily armed ships. Meaning that now thee 400i has no hope of outrunning ships like the Corsair, nor out fighting it. Making the 400i feel pointless outside of the aesthetic factors. And given CIGs notoriously long development cycle I imagine its going to be YEARS before we see any improvement on issues like this. One of my favorite things about SC as a whole prior to MMs, was flying the ships. After MMs, I find I no longer enjoy flying anymore. The entire experience feels cheapened and bogged down, with everything feeling too sluggish and slow to respond as a whole. And no longer having the euphoria I used to experience from flying makes all of Star Citizens glaring issues become a lot harder to ignore, making it all but impossible for me to enjoy the game. I no longer have faith in CIG to make a compelling experience like I used to, overall I've become very pessimistic when it comes to SC anymore and I recognize that. Its one thing if its just me, but a lot of players feel the same and the active player numbers have dipped drastically, with 3.24 seeing one of the lowest amount of return players of any major update in recent years. So I feel like I am not alone in my opinions. When 1 updates does all of that damage we have to reflect on that and decide if MMs is indeed the right flight model we want to pursue, bear in mind that when it comes to CIG it could be years before we see any significant work being down on the flight models of individual ships. And lets not forget that the whole concept of Master Modes is not a new concept for Star Citizen. Anyone remember Cruise Modes? Yeah. We had a similar system years ago and CIG canned it for being too 'restrictive'. Now we have MMs which just feels like Cruise Modes with a fresh coat of paint.

[@SolitarySpartan]

It's not a balance issue if I find it not fun to simply fly. The fundamentals of MM make space flight incredibly boring in non-combat PVE. There are many reasons why which can not be addressed with tuning. I have no reason to believe they can improve this janky flight model.

[@poposterous236]

I think this argument is dishonest. If you've been around for long enough you know that CIG takes a long time to change something and in the end they either don't change it that much or make it worse. That's what's been happening to the flight model this entire time. It's not fun because that's not their concern - they've already dealt with fun flight models, that didn't give them what they want. A slow flight model with weird restrictions, now that's what fits into their nebulous and ever-changing goals MM was never meant to be fun, it was supposed to solve problems that only a handful of the people involved with the project care about. As they adjust it they will make it slower and more restrictive in order to fit their goals. Hell, if they're really serious about the weird crap they want to do with combat they should turn the ships into playing cards and make it turn-based. MM is bad because it comes from a bad place. It's not going to be "fixed" because there's technically nothing wrong with it. Its working as intended and that doesn't vibe with most players at all.

[@BerraLJ]

Not even played in a long time, with work taking so much time, getting out of bed like 2am and often not home until 3pm, i am pretty much beat when i get home, but the knowledge i have about master modes i am not sure i am a fan, but they might not be as bad once you get the point of them.

[@attieable]

MM feels absolutely horrible. Its training wheels for new pilots. It wont fix any of the problems. One being namely: Small ships should be fast for defense with smaller size weapons that has short ranges 2: Big ships should have bigger sized guns with larger ranges. But alas with have smaller and smaller ships loaded to stupidity with guns. MM having enable horrible pilots to at least get a kill now and again and get the defense launched by those backers. Problem is if you have low skill flight model then you will have large influx that would disappear as soon as they appeared.

[@realtimbotube]

Ships that fly like ww1 airplanes. Who would have guessed there's air to soar through in space? 😂

[@_lewtz]

yep, agree. To much to work out still. SC is an MMO in the end first. with a ton of systems, playstyles, goals etc. We dont have armor, much group play, meaningful stealth etc etc. anyone who brings "realism" into it is fooling themselves anyhow. Battles would be like expanse to be more realistic... everyone looking at a screen deep in the ship, as they shoot missiles mostly from 100km's out. That alone starts knocking down the "SIM" wall. People just upset something changed.. per the usual internet. Shrugs.

[@TUROCK320]

Everything is possible. You just need good game designer. The realism is made by a GD, for video game, not reality and it can be super funny. CIG has to be more decisiv and deploy ASAP the feature for have a big picture of the flight model / dogfight ETC............ People fight each other because of CIG ahahah, it is beautifull ^^

[@VulpesChama]

A big issue of MasterModes is, that there are some balance issues. And the problem with that is, that it has nothing to do with MasterModes. But these changes, these balance changes, which are also just a stepping stone and largely placeholders, were implemented alongside MasterModes. MasterModes served one purpose, to get rid off jousting-combat. And jousting combat is bad. It is not fun. Realistic combat wouldn't be fun either, because it would be whoever sees the other first kinda wins. We need a combat-type that allows and encourages a kind of "brawling" among fighters. And MM is better than what we had before at doing that. Most issues people have with MM don't have anything to do with MM, but general ship balance and the general state of everything not being done. Like, for example, shields all being the same at the moment, armor not existing, a more local damage model etc. etc. etc. All of these things will change combat. MasterModes is merely the system behind all these things. One big issue I personally realized was that PvE in particular was way too easy before MM. You could solo a good dozen of ships without beating a sweat. And that is idiotic. That shouldn't be a thing. Taking on a dozen enemies solo should be close to suicide. The premise of SC is that we are not heroes or special in any way from the NPCs we encounter, we are, in universe, a mere human like everyone else. And I think people are way too used to too easy combat. Way too used to just blowing a dozen goons out of the sky and then hit the next target. - And I have no idea what you guys are doing, but I haven't found an encounter I couldn't get away from. Whether that is PvE or PvP. I also didn't have an encounter I wasn't able to get my objective done. Not kill everyone, get done what I came to do. - There's also a major flaw with the logic that it makes combat too easy, thus "less good players" are more likely to get the upper hand against good players. That is ... ridiculous. And sounds salty at best. A good player will remain a good and superior player, unless he lacks understanding of the system, though then he stops being the better player. This sounds... entitled, if anything. Like, "I want a system I am good at and others are not"- kind of entitled. And no, a good player shouldn't be able to beat the hell out of a dozen weak players who are determined. He should be able to kill two or three of them, but ultimately he should be overwhelmed by numbers. That is just sensible. Though arguebly, a good player wouldn't fight against such odds. No, the argument that MM makes worse players able to compete with good players is hilariously stupid at best. As this would mean that the skill of the good players is entirely dependend on the system and not something they are actually capable of. I don't know how anyone could have ever thought this would be a good argument.

[@ParagonFangXen]

So, setting aside all possible issues with flightmodel ballancing within SCM (which i do have and believe the feedback about is not "too early to judge", it is absolutely judgement worthy at ALL steps, but especially months and multiple ballance passes in) I have some Master Mode specific issues im not sure you addressed, and i think, like with feedback regarding SCM and general speed ballances within the flight model, my issues with MM specific sytems are not "to early to judge." The issues are specific and have been persistant tbrough multple months of MM ballance patching, and my issues regarding them may help inform developers weather MM needs either modification, or scrapping. Its not for me to decide how they fix the issue, but it is my responsibility to discuss the issues so they can improve, modify, scrap, rework, or replace systems. My MM specific issues; 1st - Shields being completely removed while in tranversal modes makes no sense from either a gameplay nor lore perspective. Shields were not only invented to protect ships from combat, but originally to protect from environmental hazards while travelling/exploring long distances. Shields exist to protect from cosmic energy spikes, space debris, solar flares, harmful gasses, ionized radiation, nebula storms, and the damaging forces of breaking the quantum travel wall. It makes no sense that they would be completely 100% dissabled in any Travel Modes. 2 - Defensive systems being completely offline in traversal modes that do not require central power. This includes point-defense turrets, flares, noise deployment, turrets (whom have their own capacitors and in some shios batteries). Why the hay-stacks am i unable to depliy flares in Travel Mode?!? Why do i have NO defensive capabilities when many of them are independant from central power use? How does this make sense? 3rd - Why removal of all power instead of a limitation on power? Wby can i not choose to fly at 90% Travel speed capacity for a 10% Allocation to shielding that would leave me still incredibly vulnerable, but capable of surviving or counteracting minor or singular sudden threats? If after this feedback you are open to my issues on speed ballancing and how Master Modes, not as a sytem, but as an intended ballance overhaul deviated from the gameplay i enjoyed and came to SC for (spoiler allert, i like higher speeds, dislike artificial speed caps and decellerations, and believe a space game should focus on 6DoF capabilities and physics at least while in space and leave WWII like pitch combat to Atmospheric Flight models) let me know and i will happily respond again witb my reasonings there too. :) o7

[@dex6147]

It doesn't "feel," like something has been taken from us, it has been taken. All the players that took 5 minutes to learn the old model and were rewarded for it are now facetanking like everyone else due to lack of piloting expression. SC just took another step towards arcade like, console gaming, pay to win mechanics that are always failing, especially among the adult crowd that SC had captured. Also, watching SC content is more boring than ever. Watch someone do an ERT in a Corsair while barley moving and compare that to old bounty hunting videos before you hail MM as "decent."

[@guynamedmaggi5520]

Its not even that it's arcadey it just gets old so fast, like I played it for a day and haven't touched the game since all my friends dropped the game too.

[@younboyce7068]

Totally out of touch with the player base good luck to em

[@LoudGuns]

@@dex6147 to be clear I don’t hail the current state of combat in SC as “decent”. I definitely think it is poorly balanced. I simply think that actual balancing would require ships from all the major archetypes to be in the game. I also think that 99% of combat in the prior system sucked too. I know that high skilled players who trained regularly and focused on PvP were having fun but most people weren’t because every encounter they had was with someone flying 1000 m/s in an arrow.

[@latjolajban81]

@@LoudGuns Balance is of course important, but that's not the thing here. It just feels bad to fly man. Balancing light fighters vs multicrew won't change that. Flying needs to feel good. Currently it doesn't. And balancing isn't the answer.

[@Kyle-sr6jm]

It is crap. I don't need to smell shit for a month to tell it is shit.

[@SpaceTomato]

Agreed. Too early. There's a lot to consider outside of just the basic dogfighting experience.

[@Henkums]

You got a very good take there, thanks

[@Overlegen]

I wholeheartedly agree with you Loud Guns! I still have hope CIG can make this a good model, and it too early to tell. I’m also sceptical about a space sim, that boasts about more than 10 different career paths, but where the piloting skills are so complex that those who have trained for months and months will be dominating any battle. This will only reduce the game into the space combat shooter, and all other career paths will be made obsolete. Because if you haven’t trained for months and months, you will never be able to stop the one who has, and he will shoot you down for profit, or perhaps more probable for fun. For the hard-core flight sim guys, this argument is probably not understandable because space battles is “everything” and why would you do anything else, and it should infiltrate every aspect of the game? I think PVE and PVP is really fun, but certainly not all the fun to be had in this great game

[@nuanil]

There are plenty of casual friendly games out there... let us have our hardcore game.

[@Overlegen]

@@nuanil no chance! 😂

[@negative-7846]

I would like it if I could change modes quickly, and have my shields or quicker velocity in a shorter amount of time, resources on demand. that would help.

[@basicallybrokes]

The whole MM debate is honestly super weird to me. Most people just end up saying the same things said by A1 word for word the moment he says something. I see a few comments talking about "geometry" and that word hasn't been said until after his podcast appearance with SpaceTomato. I think the big problem with everything right now is people just don't like the change but don't know what they don't actually like so they start retorting what someone in charge says. There are problems with balancing and some missing features such as engineering that are a bigger part of the problem. MM achieved the fix of tricording which only ever benefit stick players and that's what made me happiest. It also made the fights a lot closer so they are more visually interesting and fun. I will say 1v1's are lacking in terms of maneuverability. Turrets are a problem as smaller ships are hard to hit but I believe making velocity and range would fix that. I don't want to see that change until engineering comes in though. I think CIG wants to do the same thing since it will change so much of how combat feels. CIG knows what a lot of the problems are and are fixing them but they have other priorities to get other features in so they don't balance MM without other features that will change the balance. People say they don't like how slow you have to fly but if we fly too fast then that removes the point of what MM is aiming to fix. Everyone says they want to go faster but how fast? 15m? 100m? Back to 1200m? CIG will lose no matter what if they either add too little speed or too much speed. CIG want close combat and not combat where you are flying around like real fighters so if they move the speed it won't be because the community wants it. I know it's shitty but if you don't like that then I'm sorry, CIG isn't making that combat anymore.

[@CobusGreyling]

To me it has nothing to do with tuning and balancing, and everything to do with how janky and jarring it feels. It feels disingenuous to me that a lot of MM defenders rely on "we don't have all the features yet" or "wait for them to tune it first" when those exact arguments could just be applied to the previous flight model, avoiding all of this

[@realdeal485]

Broken.. When a cutty blue can drop an a2 all alone because of the COMPLETE LOSS of nav mode most importantly top speed! Take my shields/ flares.. and leave me sitting defenseless like a duck? No thanks you asses!

[@LoudGuns]

@@realdeal485 did you have turret gunners?

[@DaGhostToast]

It might be too early but I dont really want to he stuck with this iteration of it for the next 2 years, which is likely what we'll get with CIGs pace. That being said, while I agree that a lot of the problems arent MM specific, I dont think MM inherently fixed anything either. Its accomplished nothing that couldnt have been done with some tuning of older flight models.

[@NozomuYume]

The problem with MM is that it is entirely built around "game mechanics" where you warp the world around your concepts of game balance, rather than trying to build interesting game mechanics using the tools of a coherent, logical universe. It throws any sense of cohesion out the window by making a "game world" instead of a game in a world. It puts the cart before the horse and sacrifices everything in the game of creating an outcome instead of discovering the outcome. It's the Jurassic Park problem, you have an idea of what you want and build unwieldy complicated and ultimately fragile systems to achieve it. Contrast this with a national park/nature reserve where you build any infrastructure around a system that happens naturally. In other words they should create a world with coherent rules and then build the ships, weapons, and combat scenarios within the rules of that world, rather than playing Calvinball with exceptions and exceptions to exceptions and arbitrary rules to force things to happen. It isn't about "hyper realism", but it should have "hyper coherence", that is it doesn't have to be real to our reality, but it should be real to its own reality, and Master Modes is the opposite of that. The best comparison I can think of is a Dungeons and Dragons game where when the players don't do what the DM wants them, the DM punishes them with illogical things happening to force them to behave in the way the DM envisions.Master Modes, and the other arcadey changes, s that arrogant DM.

[@LoudGuns]

@@NozomuYume this is very eloquently put 👍 My question would be how else to address the fundamental issue that most combat was occurring at extremely high speeds? Personally I think they could make it a lot more smooth in the transitions (e.g. you have to control your speed to within SCM before your weapon hardpoints will deploy, and you have to retract those weapon hardpoints before you can speed up again past SCM) but I fear this would be savagely overcomplicating things for newer players and massively raise the skill floor?

[@latjolajban81]

@@LoudGuns You could make it hard to steer at high speeds. You could decrease the range of weapons. You could simply make weapons unable to fire or do very little damage. Or just let people be shit at combat untl they learn to slow down if they want to be effective in combat. Knowing speeds should be a part of the learning curve for combat. At least in my opinion.

[@nestorgomezlopez5844]

​​@@latjolajban81Exactly that, ley the people learn, not force the rules.

[@MareLooke]

@@LoudGuns as someone that doesn't have a long history of playing space/flight sims I can tell you MM already raises the skill floor massively compared to the previous model. A new player used to have to learn one set of keybindings and one set of behaviours for a ship. Now that player needs to learn all that *and* additional bindings, on top of learning 4 or so sets of behaviours for a ship (SCM, NAV, landing, and boost if I'm not mistaken) on top of learning which systems are available when, and to what extent *and* to add insult to injury you have to make conscious decisions about when to switch between all the modes adding additional mental overhead to something that's already pretty difficult (especially during combat). I've said this before, if MM had been the model when I started playing I'd have bailed from this game early, same as I did with similarly extremely complicated flight models (see: Elite Dangerous). Star Citizen went from "easy to learn (relatively), hard to master", to, as far as I can tell, the polar opposite (as far as I can tell because I won't claim I "mastered" any of the flight models) Sure, maybe space combat is easier now, once, or even *if*, you get over the massively steeper cliff a new player now has to scale to get to that point.

[@LoudGuns]

@@MareLooke I can get how unlearning the old model to learn this may be hard. But tbh I don’t think it’s as bad as people make out as a fresh beginner (and just for clarity - through our discord I do deal with a lot of new folks as they just get the game). Once the general premise of “hold B to switch” is explained to them most pick it up just as intuitively as the old model. I also wouldn’t really count landing (slows you down to a crawl) and boosting as separate modes. If anything the change on landing mode (which can be turned off) has led to an anecdotal decrease in the number of new players who go 💥 the first time they reach a space station. If anything I think MM is more new player friendly, since it forces people to fly slower when they’re trying to do anything like combat. One of the first things you used to have to tell new folks was to stop trying to fight at 500-600m/s and to watch their speed.

[@memer5auru5]

Definitely when the Polaris and hey even the idris comes in we will have a meaningful cap ship, we might get lucky buy the end of next year for the idris ya know?

[@latjolajban81]

Maybe you want simpler mechanics more normal for an mmo, but that's not what Star Citizen was sold as. Star Citizen was supposed to be all about player skill. Skill when flying. Skill in ground combat. Skill in professions. They are more or less taking that skill out. Professions don't need any skill at all. Medical is just pointing a beam. Repairing is just pointing a beam. Salvaging is just pointing a beam. And now flying a ship doesn't really require any skill either. Flying just feels bad. Changing modes gives you the hardest freaking break ever that would make you a pool of blood on the canopy if there was any kind of realism to it. When you put your gear down it automatically slows you down. It basically flies for you. You can't do a cool "coming in fast and hand break park" you could before if you knew your ship. It just feels bad to fly.

[@nuanil]

On your last point, you can.... you just need to bind a key to toggle Automatic Precisions Mode.

[@house382]

Thank you for seeing that layered systems matter. The captain egg shape wants to solve everything through brute force without bothering to take anything other than SCM into account. If he would take anything else into account he'd be worth listening to, but he's been incapable of doing that for more than a year now. Layered systems add complication without making flight itself overly complicated.

[@Mike5Brown]

I love the idea of MM pulling the flight speed during combat down, but because we're in space we need something to let us get from point A and B in a reasonable amount of time. Personally I think that the biggest problems with MM are ship acceleration and the time to switch from Nav and SCM mode. Most ships can hit their top SCM speed in no time at all and now we have interceptors as top dogs because they are faster, by giving fighters much faster acceleration but lower top speed while interceptors have low acceleration but high top speed. Interceptors can still do their boom and zoom tactics but it will be much more difficult for them to escape a fighter that does get into range. As for switching from Nav and SCM modes, they just need to make Nav mode to be another type of quantum travel (which they already have with the quantum dampeners) and it takes time to switch between them it shouldn't be something that can be done in combat without extreme risk (personally I lean towards needing to be fully stopped to switch, but not married to that position). However, they really need to make it so mining ships can fully scan rocks with scanning mode and not mining mode, it is annoying enough right now but would be a nightmare if the time to switch increased.

[@kevinm3751]

I was intrigued by what Chris outlined for space combat when he first introduced us to the ideas for this game. Unfortunately master modes does not even come close to that idea and all it is giving us is world of war planes in space! I am bent that instead of putting in the time with the last game mode and actually doing something about the balance of the ships and components they did what they have already done a few times and just scrapped the plan and started with yet another half baked game mode! What really chaps a lot of hides is they introduced master modes and then when we learned what sort of trash it is, their only excuse is the same lame, drawn out one claiming it will be improved in future versions. Given the developers track record I strongly suggest no one get to comfortable with master modes because this is already the 4th iteration of combat mode, it still sucks and they are still dragging their feet to actually work on it! The only players this joke of a combat mode are the ones that cant handle high speed and want to fly a P51 space plane. All that is missing are the propellers!

[@altostratus9342]

🖕This. "I was intrigued by what Chris outlined for space combat when he first introduced us to the ideas for this game." It was marketed as a Newtonian physics based space flight simulation that would set Star Citizen apart from other space sims. And here we are 12 years later ... we have arcady, contrived Master Modes instead.

[@jamess405]

I feel like MM isn’t quite right currently but that its better than the crazy speeds of the previous one. Trying to fight as a group vs one light fighter was a nightmare before

[@latjolajban81]

But flying felt way better in 3.22. Sure your group will kill that light fighter with the current flight model, but flying just feels bad man.

[@nuanil]

The only people performing combat at max speeds were those that refused to exercise throttle control, and then bitched about not landing any shots. Anyone with any skill before was already keeping their speeds to that 300-500 range on average. The only thing MM did was ensure nobody can exceed that speed, which also removed any possibilities of disengaging from combat with out cheesing it.

[@andrewfanner2245]

If MM is a work in progress it was released to live far too soon. It has acquirted a bad reputation and the impression is given that CIG have failed to accept that criticism, much of it constructive and are making the basic error of reinforcing failure. Couple that with the lack of having the associated systems such as armour and the experience, especially for thise either less motivated by constant combat, or those flying non combat ships has been at best less enjoyable. SC has a fairly unforgiving, indeedf brutal learning curve and MM impacts starter ships, barring the Titan, pretty hard as well, which is probably an unintended consequence, but should not be so at this level. Time was when I'd take on an AI Cutlass Black in a Cutter, knowing one could try and run if it started going South, but now with shields down its simply quicker to Alt + F4 to get the same outcome. As a wider view that means you are less likely to "suck it and see" in combat. I coule get behind the idea that MM applies to ships under a certain size, they simply dont have enough power grid to maintain speed and shields, but the cube law works in favour of larger craft, they have the power density by virtue of substantially bigger components. Maybe S3 and larger power plants can provide power for Nav mode and half shields. And make at least flares work, the idea that in a hostile world there is no functional defensive measure when trying to use Nav mode isn't rational. Its right up there with not having the equivalent of your car keys to enter and operate you ship as a basic oversight. Oh, wait...🙂

[@trevor6752]

Mate its been out for 5 months!!!!! Too early ? When do you think we should voice our opinion year from now ?

[@LoudGuns]

@@trevor6752 I think you should voice your opinions whenever and wherever you choose mate. But part of that is that other people will have other opinions 👍

[@louhodo5761]

I agree with everything said in this video. Well stated. Lastly i dont hate MM, i finally found a flight model in SC that is closer to the old 2.6 model where ships didnt handle like hummingbirds on crack in space.

[@latjolajban81]

2.x was sooo much better than in MM. 2.x had inertia. There is no inertia in MM. It's slow sure, but nothing like 2.6.

[@louhodo5761]

@latjolajban81 these are things that can be tuned into MM. Most of people's problems with master modes can be fixed with a few tweaks here and there. Unlike the previous flight model which had been tweeked so much it needed to die.

[@latjolajban81]

@@louhodo5761 Sure it can be "tuned" into mm. Thing is I don't think there is any newtonian physics at all in the current flight model. Previous flight model mostly just needed thuster power to come down. Alot.

[@louhodo5761]

@@latjolajban81 there hasn't been newtonian physics in SC really ever. There has been something like it. And that form of flight is still there, just decouple.

[@latjolajban81]

@@louhodo5761 Decouple is not newtonian. It doesn't change the flight model. It just changes how thrusters behave. And we did have newtonian physics once upon a time.

[@MSFTJustice]

WHO THE HECK TYPES IN ALL CAPS....?

[@LoudGuns]

@@MSFTJustice people who actually watch to the end, I applaud you 👏

[@TairnKA]

I'm not very good at PVE or PVP so way back when (v2.5 - v2.6) I got a Warden because it had a reputation of the ship to avoid if in your area... that was until it was Nerfed, then Nerfed again recently (maybe Nerfed once or twice between then). ;-) It's sad, really that CIG took the "Badass" nature out of the Warden. ;-( I miss that short time I was feared. ;-D

[@LogandiDrekasol]

The Warden is still one of the most capable combat ships in the game, and one of the most versatile. It will be a huge asset when Pyro comes online.

[@eclipse3037]

Not gonna stop me from hating it because of removed auto gimbals

[@PsyEm-p1j]

Totally agree that the focus should be about balancing not pouring hate on MM’s in itself. Personally, I now enjoy combat way more and it ‘feels’ so much better for the average player. It’s right that CIG tailor the experience to the most players while keeping a small % back for those who want to pour endless hours into perfecting one thing. I have zero hate but I can’t listen to A1 anymore as all I can hear is whining about this subject and he is exceptionally tunnel vision about it imo. Don’t get me wrong he has made some good points but he is not the only one making them but he acts like he’s the only one who sees these issues. Armour will be a game changer and I think smaller lasers and ballistics should bounce off tougher big ship armour, encouraging you to save up for the ships with the big guns to take on the bigger bounties and get the bigger rewards. Simple progression. I think you have as good an overview of this as anyone I’ve heard LG and I know FRCN is a fantastic org.

[@latjolajban81]

No. Balancing won't fix it. It simply feels bad to fly. Balancing light fighters vs multicrew won't fix that. It simply feels bad to fly.

[@nuanil]

Balancing won't fix anything about MM. The same changes would have had the same affects in the old flight model.

[@PsyEm-p1j]

@@nuanil the original model was boring as hell. I engage and enjoy combat way more now than I did before. In fact if you look at player stats, 3 x as many more people are playing combat for longer than before MM was introduced so whatever CIG changed, worked for the majority of players. Thats validation for their decision imo.

[@nuanil]

@PsyEm-p1j the only thing that changed about combat, is you don't have to worry about throttle control, the game does it for you. MM is for low skill pilots. Period.

[@PsyEm-p1j]

@@nuanil totally disagree but believe what you like. I can tell from your zealots view of “I won’t listen to anyone else but you must listen to me” stance that this will be a pointless discussion with you so, you do you. About 75% of players disagree with you based on the current number of players that are now more actively engaged in combat activities in game.

[@manuelgrewer7456]

Your point about armor was excellent. How don't we have a working concept of ship armor after 12 years? But they say SQ 42 is feature complete? CIG is full of shit these days. All current balancing efforts are moot without armor. I agree with some of your points about MM but I still don't like it. I still believe that all the problems with the "old" model could have been fixed without introducing artificial speed gaps. Actually, I find MM most anoying when just trying to get around the verse. Mining and salvaging are not as smooth as they were before anymore, because you are constantly switching between scm and nav mode. Its just clunky.

[@Accuracy158]

When people say Master Modes They mean 3.23 which it's not too early to judge. I think really what pisses people off most is Yogi always acting like it's largely very good and exactly what CIG wanted for the game. Of course people are going to say "just delete it" or "throw it in the trash" when CIG basically ignores all the critiques. If CIG was asking what they need to do to make it better people probably wouldn't have gotten as mad. There's also a lot of people that basically could care less about PvP and combat and they just think it makes there game feel clunky and annoying with mode switching all the time. I do suspect master modes may be a necessary evil for the best flight model but I don't how you ever really fix somethings like the feeling of artificially and drastically being pulled to slow speeds every time you switch modes.

[@rttakezo2000]

Star Citizen shouldn't be about making combat for the Aces. It should be fun for everyone.

[@TUROCK320]

yes but it is actually "incomplete feature" about the flight model :/. 1 year or 2 for have something interresting.

[@latjolajban81]

Actually Star Citizen should absolutely be a game for people who want to be aces. It's what Star Citizen was sold as. Player skill was supposed to be all that mattered. For everything. Professions. Ground combat. Flying. Space combat.

[@nuanil]

You're wrong. We were sold a game that was 100% personal skill based. No stats, or other contrived mechanics to compensate for it. We were sold a hardcore sim. Maybe you should go play Everspace, or some other casual space shooter.

[@BlakedaBull]

judge often and early and change your judgments, just don't condemn. to judge is to think, and to think is human. i know loud guns, our culture is flawed, on judgments and condemnation. be a wise judge and know your judgement is for ourselves and families, condemnation is the road of isolation, separation, and pain. oxford English dictionary those two words and all questions can be worked through with a fine mind.

[@kyelsavage6296]

Hahaha! Too late. I have already judged MM, and I have found it lacking.

[@davidoloughlin3180]

MM is idiotic. why dumb down the flight model for inexperienced players. you don't need to cater to everyone in a game. they say it will eliminate jousting....lol every 1v1 I've been in there's still jousting on the opposite end.

[@SledTillDead]

No it isn't. Master modes absolutely sucks and flattens both ship differentialities and destroys gameplay options.

[@dodadaexploda7777]

MM, is an attempt to alter combat balance by altering the FM before all the rest of the combat balance features are even in the game, the exact same argument those who say we who dislike MM should wait and give it a chance, well wouldn't those things have also worked to help balance the previous FM? the point I'm making is: the complaint of the "LF meta" had a clear path to being fixed, but the impatient playerbase moaned enough at CIG to fix it, and now we have MM and the pro-MM crowd tell us to wait for those things to fix the FM. The MM FM is less accessible to a completely new player, contrived and heavy handed, all in an effort to fix that which was already planned to be fixed.

[@LoudGuns]

@@dodadaexploda7777 I appreciate the fact that the previous FM could’ve been better balanced with more ships in it to work with. I did find every fight I got into in the PU though was people zipping around at 900 m/s jousting which was pretty lame and boring. I don’t necessarily agree with the complaint that it makes it harder for new players - I talk to plenty of new folks and none of them seem to take more than a minute or 2 to understand SCM (pew pew) / NAV (go fast).

[@dodadaexploda7777]

@@LoudGuns Appreciate the response :) Spectrum is a hostile place rn, it's nice to not get flamed or even cheered on, for having an opinion for once! Karma farming on spectrum is not why I like or dislike something, I genuinely believe the FM change is detrimental to the longevity of the game. I have so much to say about how wrong MM is, I don't have enough patience to type it all out here :') Maybe one day we'll meet, and we can chat about it, but until then, I'm gonna just politely agree to disagree that MM is a good change for the game. I'm glad you're having fun, but I can't even bring myself to log in to the verse atm.

[@LoudGuns]

@@dodadaexploda7777 unfortunately if I wrote “I love dogs” on spectrum the most upvoted reply would be “screw you man, why do you hate cats so much you monster?” 😂 I believe strongly in good discussion and divergent opinions and I’m glad we can have both simultaneously 👍

[@latjolajban81]

Combat balance is all fine and good. But flying simply feels really bad!

[@younboyce7068]

3 years for master modes im already judging unfortunately

[@ChookyChuck]

mastermodes is too slow, not immersive and too complex. It doesnt fix much either ... the problem is the relation between ship speeds and weapon projectile speed.

[@grievousminded7517]

I like the MM, tbh. It's fun to zoom away when your opponent was just about to engage you.

[@RedHornSSS]

yep, we definitely fixed jousting guys kekw

[@jasonm2477]

its sad how badly they've nerfed JT, it used to be an increadible payout if you held it now its pocket change if it works at all

[@LoudGuns]

@@jasonm2477 yeah I literally think it should be the best auec/hr in the game

[@Gnarfendorf]

It got buffed with the last iteration fyi, not by a gigantic amount but the illegal sell is back to about 28k per box. Sadly selling the maze is an issue with permanently broken freight elevators at salvage jards.

[@jasonm2477]

@@Gnarfendorf they work sometimes now... not often but sometimes! lol yeah and they announced the insanely reduced value first, then by the time they went back on it and raised the price to a somewhat reasonable amount everyone already was put off and didnt care

[@Gnarfendorf]

@@jasonm2477 Ye you had to get lucky to get a contested jt last run.

[@ator88]

i cannot disagree more. We need to push some changes now when they still can do some changes other wise we will get new flight system in 2 years when they realise they did big mistakes at the begining and if this game change flight model for the 5th time it will be disaster

[@LogandiDrekasol]

Strong agree that it's too early. We know CIG wants to try a lot of tunings and adjustments on top of this model and we should give them the opportunity to do that (but soon plz Chris)

[@mjlee8013]

Yes, its been only 12 years. 25 years is a bare minimum to get a core mechanics in video game.

[@LogandiDrekasol]

@@mjlee8013 No one can argue that CIG's velocity is good. And in that sense I don't waste time and energy on the inverse

[@nuanil]

It's been 5 months.... do we need 50 months to evaluate it? The main point everyone hates is the transitions. You can't "tune" out the transitions.

[@LogandiDrekasol]

@@nuanil sure they can, and it's on their list of things to adjust. I think a lack of rapid iteration on all this is not helping them.

[@nuanil]

@LogandiDrekasol you fundamentally cannot tune out transitions when that's the core mechanic...

[@No_Wucking_Forries]

Loud can u do another salvage and mining vid after the changes lately

[@LoudGuns]

@@No_Wucking_Forries yep I’m planning it - they just take a fair while to make. Currently working on cargo but the rep grind is sooooo slow 😆

[@No_Wucking_Forries]

@@LoudGuns tell me about it I'm working on master as we speak

[@Cpt_Kakashi]

Its too early to judge mm. Lets wait 12 years and see whats happen. Some of us will be dead but its ok.. we have children! 😂

[@MadworldofChaos]

As a former member of his majesty's senior service, I can't wait for fleet battles where this game lies not in a one-person fighter

[@chrisds4388]

I'm cool with MM as long as I can still circle strafe ERT bounties in a heavy fighter.

[@gatorpika]

I guess I will throw a few comments out there. A1's video mostly talked about the geometry of the fights and how that lines up with what Yogi was saying had been accomplished. We sort of went down this road before with fights being decent in some of the 2.X releases, pretty much sucking for all the 3.X released up to 3.14 when it was nose to nose fights and then being mostly fun again until they went back to suck with MM. You are mostly looking at the macro level with large fleet battles, which is fine, but also remember that it's likely the vast majority of fights will be solo or small engagements and most players will be solo or working with a few friends. The megasquad thing isn't going to be the norm based on all I have read over the years on Spectrum and Reddit. People were pissed when Chris was saying they wouldn't be able to solo their cap ships for instance. The numbers game will be there for groups like Frontier but that won't be the norm and honestly it won't be all that fun to me at least ganking an outnumbered bunch with no skill involved. Some of the best fights I have had were against pro squads who we outnumbered but they were better pilots and handed us our asses. We talked about training years ago and most people don't want to invest the time, but to me those that do and win fights get a better feeling for doing it than someone that just won a DPS race because they had more guns on their ship or whatever. I don't think the current system is horrible, but it's becoming more of a spreadsheet game than a skill game and the latter is what was promised. I hope they find a good balance at some point.

[@Minishimirukaze]

THIS WAS A GOOD VIDEO!!!!

[@PulseStar5k]

I do agree with your point of view : there are too much things not currently in the game to judge master And, even as industrial and PvE player, I like the fact now when the fights begins, it begins. Beeing way more difficults to run away from, fights can better capitalize on the tension of the "I don't wanna die" Also, can't wait to see your guide about cargo hauling PS : It's been some time it's up, but i really enjoy the ultrawide format :D

[@latjolajban81]

Sure lots of things are not in game. So why implement master modes to try to "fix" something that we don't even know is a problem yet because lots of things are not in game yet?

[@PulseStar5k]

@@latjolajban81 I think that space joust were a problem. And there far less of them :D It's also a very different way to handle the ship : maybe CIG wants that to be in the game as "early" (no it's been 12 years, but you get the idea) as possible to test, iterate and ajust the way it will work in the future, based on the gameplay they want for the game, on gameplays they add, and on our complains and preferences, about Master Modes themselves and about related features I do think that Master Modes will be reworked, maybe several times, before the end of the alpha of the game. Although, it wouldn't be efficient to try to rework it now. Perhaps when armor and control surfaces will be added, a rework will come In the end and as ever, all we can do is pray our lord and saviour, Chris ROBERTS x)

[@latjolajban81]

@@PulseStar5k True the ships handle really bad now. Worse in every way than before.

[@PulseStar5k]

@@latjolajban81 yeah it might be a bit of a downgrade on that part

[@Venhili]

My good sir, you are damned right. It IS too early to judge Master Modes

[@nestorgomezlopez5844]

No if they are going to do nothing with it in a year.

[@fg1110]

Most people do not like MM.

[@LoudGuns]

@@fg1110 to be clear I don’t think overall combat in SC is brilliant (I also didn’t think it was brilliant before tbf). Still I am interested because I’m hearing this very vocally in the comments - where are we getting the stats that “most people” dislike the new model?

[@fg1110]

@@LoudGuns I agree the old flight model has issues, but this one is much worse

[@Captain_Alkami]

What a fantastic point of view on the subject. Thanks for the weigh-in. ❤

[@k0mm4nd3r_k3n]

We don't want Newtonianism is our space game. We want to sit inside our ships, we want to be able to look out the window, and we want cool sounds and fun gun fights - none of which is possible with Newtoniansm.

[@Sludgebuster]

Your last comment strikes home: I appreciate Avenger's insight, but don't share his opinion: I personally think MM is good with some improvements necessary. Some of the louder voices on my side of the viewpoint make me ashamed to hold this view...

[@LucidStrike]

A1 isn't great a communicating his actual position: He does believe Master Modes can be made good, despite frequently talking like it's fundamentally garbage.

[@LogandiDrekasol]

I agree with this

[@latjolajban81]

@@LucidStrike Master modes is simply two different modes. One for combat and one for travel. That's fine. However, flying just feels bad. It can of course be made to feel good even if we have two modes for flying. Currently it feels like shit. It doesn't feel like you are flying a space ship. You are flying a robot on rails or something. That's how it feels like.

[@MrKill_SC]

You open up the video talking about how you don't know much about PVP but you disagree with avenger one.. sure let's hear what you have to say lmao

[@LoudGuns]

@@MrKill_SC well….did you?

[@Ogata123]

The changes to combat were in the right direction. They didnt fix anything, but it at least went in the right direction. I can’t stand MM though, to the point i’ve had no desire to play. Not because combat, i think in small scale situations like AC, its great and makes the pvp fun. Flight wise though, the gearshift absolutely destroys the flow of flight. It makes industrial work a chore especially mining in space, and was clearly designed purely around combat with no other considerations taken into account.

[@calpin_dk]

I think the overall problem with SC is how the game is developed and Master Modes is just the latest victim added to a large pile of incomplete game systems. The devs only have so much time allocated to a game system and then need move on to the next. This way the systems may require additional tuning and even a rework later down the line when there's a timeslot available which Yogi also stated. Hence the "Master Modes is not in final state" disclaimer. The only close to complete game systems are mining and salvage imo. Great video!

[@etogreen]

As someone who spends most of his time knife fighting top tier sweats in AC. I can say master modes is fine. Sure there is room for improvement such as balance, and possibly eliptical SCM speeds. but theres nothing fundimentally wrong with MM. The skill ceiling is still plenty high, and if you dive deep into aspects like knife fighting (the way MM was meant to be played), you will find it immensely fun. At all levels of skill, the old flight model was fundimentally wrong and simply would not work, and people seem be ignoring that.

[@Terran0va_Plays]

I like mastermodes. I hate the current balance. I think that's probably most ppl's sentiment weather they realize it or not. Let's let them cook.

[@latjolajban81]

Nope. Many people just hate flying in MM. It doesn't feel good to fly.

[@nuanil]

Nope. It's the trash transitions everyone hates. Full stop. And that is ENTIRELY the fault of master modes. There is nothing that fixes master modes that would not have also fixed 3.22.

[@Terran0va_Plays]

@@nuanil where is this “everyone” though? Feels like sentiment on master modes is far from conclusive. One of the few features I’ve seen in SC actually be pretty divisive.

[@kjaere2313]

Thank you, the crying has been kinda annoying. For various reasons. One being, being used to and able to exploit a flight model that was 10 years old, and for all intents and purposes a placeholder in an ALPHA video game. Is not a defense for its existence. Two, it’s in development. Just like everything else in the game is. Feedback is fine, but feedback isn’t “old model better” that’s just unproductive. Because you aren’t getting the old model back. If you really don’t like something about MM you need to give actual criticism as well as suggestions for its improvement. Otherwise you are just mad, and will continue to be free of charge.

[@nestorgomezlopez5844]

Return to the speeds of the older model with so much lower accelerations, and reduce projectile speeds increasing with weapon sice. And do missiles much more efective at high speeds.

[@jsullivan649]

I just think it’s wild that after 12 years, we still don’t have a flight model nailed down. While MM is fine for SQ42 which you play solo… as an interactive online game, it’s just dumb and immersion breaking. I’m all for them tying weapons to their power plants like A1 suggested, that would add a hard balance to ships being these mix and match messes we have now.

[@latjolajban81]

We had a really good flight model in 2.x for space. But the introduction of atmosphere made CIG screw the flight model because there was no control surfaces that could counter gravity. So they had to make ships able to fly in atmosphere, which meant they increased thruster output like crazy. And thus we got the flight model we had up until 3.22 with agile fighters just circling and corkscrewing on a dime making them really hard to hit and the lead pip always being wrong.

[@briangueringer3673]

Its horrible. I think the reality after the SQ42 demo, slow motion is the name of the game. I came a little before 3.18 and was alright this could be cool... After MM..... Nah. This is not going to be my main space game. This game is going to be NMS for adults. Its going to be one of those games you goof around in with friends but if you want a "sim" this isnt it. Elite Dangerous is Star Trek. Star Citizen is Star Wars. Its just about things looking cool and that to me is very clear. I tried playing alot after CitCon and I just cant stand the flight and how goofy it all is. Hopefully one day a true "space sim" is done one day but Elite is the closest thing to that right now. Sure SC looks amazing and has all these cool things to play with but its all buried in menus and horrible controls. Now with MM the flight is a worse version of what they had before. I get the same exact feeling I get when I play NMS. Yeah ill slfly around and shoot stuff but it is objectively boring and and dumb feeling. I dont even use my flight sicks anymore on SC. Its just feels unnecessary now lol. Its bad, real bad. Im fine with them trying different damage and defense models but the flight is a big nothing burger.

[@LoudGuns]

@@briangueringer3673 yeah it’s definitely a game rather than a sim so if you’re purely after the latter then SC’s probably not that. Tbf I don’t think ED is much more of a sim either though - a pure space combat sim would be lots of maths and no windows 😂

[@briangueringer3673]

@@LoudGuns Yeah pure "sim" is more DCS. But space Sims Elite is pretty "simmy" lol. Like going in to atmosphere, SC it's just pretty. ED you do have to manage angle and speed. It's not the ultimate sim but it has a bunch of systems you have to play by or get punished. The combat is way closer to a sim than SC. I just can't think of a space game that is more sim oriented in the space. There are some amazing pure combat games in the space category but they don't have anything else too them. So Elite is the more sim of the two. Star Citizen is not a sim at all but a No Mans Sky, it really is. They sold the sim idea to a bunch of us but it's simply not going to happen. NMS for adults... The game already consists of mostly people who suck at flying so they buddie up and do stuff together. I get it but that wasn't "the dream". If you think about it, it had better flight design for almost 10 years, then all of a sudden they killed it for SQ42. So as far as I'm concerned nothing in SC is safe.

[@LoudGuns]

@@briangueringer3673 I think the thing is they told everyone what they wanted to hear right? Personally for me I’ve got no interest in a sim, I came for the mmo game (probably why I’m a bit less annoyed by MM generally - because for a good mmo simple is often better).

[@briangueringer3673]

@LoudGuns I don't think "telling people what they want to hear" is a defense lol. That's called lying. It goes deeper than that, if you take the fact the model they used in 3.18 was a way more "realistic " and I think a better model to work from, all the models were in that vein until that point . Then they completely changed it after they got people into the game. It's just bad mojo. When I say "sim" , I am not saying I want 200 buttons in the cockpit. I am just saying something more towards Elite. Where there is a set of rules you learn and it all revolves around that. It gives you a "sim" feel without becoming DCS. I thinkbthat is where they are missing the boat. What I find odd about your argument is everything else in the game is behind 10 menus and 20 button clicks, for no reason. You seem to be ok with that "sim" though. It's overly complicated for no reason lol. Like your fine with MM but don't have a problem hand loading 100 boxes on a cargo grid? That's what really makes it worse. All other parts of the game have all these systems , a bunch of them make zero sense from a gamplay perspective but when it comes to flight its this artificially speed limited goof ball mechanics. It's a total disconnect even from the game itself. They are going for "super realism" with cargo, mining , salvage and even medical play. You have all these rules you have to follow but flight... Nah, we're going with super acradey AND slow? Look at engineering. It's a giant sim. This connects to that , gotta fix this or reroute that... That's fine but at least make the flight and combat in that vein. I think will hurt the game in the long run and I don't think anyone can deny that MM has been the absolutely most controversial thing they have ever done in the game, so it's not good. My point would simply come down to the fact that people who don't pvp (which is most) don't really care about the flight model that much. It's just a tool to get from a to b. So they would adjust and find a skill level bounty they are comfortable with. Samething on the other side. Combat players will put up with all them menu nonsense and horrible game reasoning so they can fly and have fun. So they could easily do both. I do wonder though if them pushing the console version is messing up everything. Like the "pea soup" galaxy we have now to decrease draw distances...

[@LoudGuns]

@@briangueringer3673 🤷‍♂️ yeah I guess it all comes down to if you find the game fun or not. I think cargo etc does need streamlining (no I do not particularly enjoy manually loading 300 boxes - but then again if I do need to do that I do it with 5-6 other people). I’m not here to defend the flight model or knock it, I think it’s not going to be to everyone’s taste but that’s kinda impossible at the end of the day. Without meaning to be a dick about it, if elites model is more your thing play elite?

[@alwayssearching4760]

When youtubers try this hard to brown nose CIG I start to question said motives. Congrats CIG may give you half a gold star but if you want a whole one youll need to fully commit. Looking at you Supermacbrother

[@AbdiYohan]

I think Avenger One would agree as they both did at the end of spacetomato's podcast that any further changes should be made in the frame of MM. I'm with you that we need to wait on 4.0 to see the necessary changes.😊

[@alwayssearching4760]

I judged it as poo poo. Canceled all my support and turned it off. That's what happens when you ruin gameplay for people.

[@danieldorn6516]

Thank you! Exactly what I think, too. MM will be good sooner or l8er.

[@nuanil]

MM didn't work the first 3 times they tried it, what makes you think it'll work now?

[@aka-47k]

"no ship is the goat" while video is f7a mk2 killing everything lol yes sure you like master modes but how about you take a cutter vs said f7a mk2? suddenly not so fun anymore? or wait you deserve it cause you paid alot money for it?

[@LoudGuns]

@@aka-47k the video here is purely b roll, if I could have stuck a slide saying “let’s talk about MM” up I would have but people have provably short attention spans and some folks need visual stimuli in order to listen to a video essay (which is what this is). I play a lot of LoL outside of SC and that provides good read across - there is no one “best champion”. If the game was only 1v1’s we would all play duelists or burst mages (and it’d be boring). But because objectives and fights are varied you instead need to think about team composition, strategies and balance - some games are literally lost before they start due to a bad draft by one team. My argument is that we don’t have all of the ship archetypes in yet and we don’t have the varied objectives so complaining that ship balancing isn’t right yet is imo premature.

[@jebidyah]

super based take. I feel like this actually encapsulates what the majority of people who play SC would want.