Hi! If you're looking for industrial lubricants training in this style, head on over to lubrication.expert/product/lubrication-explained-pro/ where you'll find a tonne of internationally certified training for $100 USD per month.
@fastbusiness2 күн бұрын
I have found that WD-40 works especially well for one purpose, for me. I have a steel work bench on casters that I roll out of the shop to weld on, and sometimes I get caught out in the rain before I can get it inside. When the table gets wet it will rust very quickly even if I wipe away the excess moisture. However, if I spray and wipe on a light coat of WD while the table is wet, it never rusts. So, I guess it really does displace water from what I see.
@yzrippin13 сағат бұрын
Sit down before you read the rest of this because it's going to blow your mind but that's actually exactly what this product was invented for
@LubricationExplained7 сағат бұрын
Absolutely! The water displacement properties are more a function of the wettability and surface tension of the product, which is very low compared with water. Combine that with a corrosion inhibitor, and it'll do the trick.
@sharg03 күн бұрын
I've argued this for many years due to being taught some lubrication basics by my father who was an engine engineer for planes. Thanks for making a thorough video to show for others!
@LubricationExplained7 сағат бұрын
Thank you sir! Sometimes its handy to have a "third party" that you can point to.
@chrissmith2114Сағат бұрын
WD-40 was banned from our maintenance department because people thought it was a lubricant but after a few days it sets to a decent adhesive. I remember using it on ignition systems in older cars ( with a distributor ) and seeing it attract all the dirt in the area like a dirt magnet.
@chrissmith2114Сағат бұрын
With modern 'O' and X ring chains, the lubricant is sealed into the pins and the main reason to spray a chain is to stop the links rusting, not lubrication.
@chocolate_squiggle12 сағат бұрын
Excellent, this fits exactly with my observations of using it over several decades. I don't hesitate to 'lubricate' door hinges with it to stop squeaks etc, and it works, long term too. But these are small, and indoors protected from the elements. I do use it as more of a convenient cleaner and LIGHT lubricant for a bike chain (when I need quick & easy). That is, if I clean the bike and spray the chain down with WD-40, I'm happy to take it for a short-ish ride without any further lubricating product. But it won't last long, either stored in the garage or being ridden. It needs to be done frequently, every ride perhaps if relying on it, or the chain will start squeaking fairly soon.
@imweirdimnotsocial46 минут бұрын
I’m super happy to have this recommended on my KZbin feed. High quality of videos and super easy to understand! Thank you! Another channel other than the motoroilgeek added to my subscribed list! Thank you for the educational content! As a side note, it seems that your video ends abruptly. However that’s how you I watched it all :)
@andywaynick52012 күн бұрын
Rafe, this is a great presentation!!! And you are dead-on correct. Your analysis is spot on. WD-40 is a poor lubricant. It is what I refer to as a penetrating solvent. When my previous elliptical was out of warranty, it began to squeal during prolonged workouts. The bushings had worn and were contaminated with corrosion product fines due to less than thoughtful practices by me (not wearing long sweats and having sweat dripping into the bushings below me). I used WD-40 to try to make the machine work better. And it did - for a short time. But all it really did is temporarily loosen things up. BTW, I learned my lesson. I always wear long sweats now with my new elliptical. After about 5 months, it still looks and operates as a brand new machine. My can of WD-40 is collecting dust! Thanks again for an interesting discussion.
@LubricationExplained2 күн бұрын
Great to hear from you Andy!! And glad you’re keeping well 😊
@ronblack787013 сағат бұрын
you could take some gear oil and thin it down with mineral spirits . apply that after the wd40. the mineral spirits will evaporate leaving the heavier oil in there.
@johncoops68979 сағат бұрын
It would be easier to forget using whatever "sweats" is, and instead just use a proper lubricant on the bearings.
@andywaynick52018 сағат бұрын
@@johncoops6897 Perhaps for some whose situation was different from mine. But not in my specific case. The problem was that the bushings (not ball or roller bearings) were sealed for life wrt the lubricant (a grease) There were no zerts or any other access point to relubricate. If the bushings were not working properly, the only course of action available to me was to schedule a technician as per the conditions of my warranty, and have the bushings replaced with new lubricated bushings. To do anything else could invalidate my warranty. The sweating and having the salty sweat penetrating those bushings was more than the corrosion protection provided by the lubricant that was part of the bushings. During the warranty period, I had those bushings replaced each year. This fixed the problem. But by the end of the next year, the same problem had occurred. The technician who did the yearly work (included in my warranty) opened the bushings when he replaced them. Massive corrosion (rust) and whatever lubricating grease was used was not even grease-like. I was not able to access details of what grease the elliptical company used in those bushings for that particular model. By wearing long sweats I have prevented even one drop of sweat from touching any part of my new elliptical except the hand grips. And I carefully wipe those down well before any of that sweat can get on any other part. So far, this plan is working. My elliptical is as smooth and quiet now as the first day I used it. If wearing long sweats will keep my elliptical working perfectly, it is a small price to pay.
@robno52232 күн бұрын
Works fantastic for milling aluminum, NFG as a lubricant, was developed for storage of missiles
@gregorymalchuk2722 күн бұрын
It's water displacer attmept number 40. Its used for spraying on spark plug wires on damp mornings. Thank goodness for modern silicone insulation, electronic ignition, and digital fuel injection.
@lassikinnunenКүн бұрын
Its got other uses. One early use was for to use on engine blocks that got submerged in water
@FishFind30003 күн бұрын
Can you grade a penitent like liquid wrench and see how it stacks up to wd40?
@PhoneMan-x7m12 сағат бұрын
I've used it to help restore old tools and tool holders in machine shops that lack central ac, so hand tools in our sub tropical climate tend to rust up hanging on the peg board over a short period of time. Some wd40 and elbow grease will get the surface rust off, or will product some tools and tool holders, but after that you need to apply the appropriate lube, on moving parts especially.
@Four_Eyes4 сағат бұрын
How different is it from brake cleaner?
@KLZ6019 минут бұрын
Very different. Brake cleaners quicky evaporate fully.
@44hawk2819 сағат бұрын
I've been telling people this since the early 1980s that WD-40 is not a lubricant. It is never been designed to be a lubricant. It is a water displacement solvent. The reason I found this out is because people were getting some of the stainless pistols and in competition they thought that spraying it down with WD-40 is a great way to make the firearm run really slick what was happening is is the guns were sometimes seizing up in mid cycle and you couldn't even unload them. Because it removed all lubrication from the firearm and when you make a stainless firearm and you have two different parts that have to slide against each other that are made from the same type of stainless they will tend to stick together and stick together they did. Do not use WD-40 as a lubrication system. It is not a lubricant. It is literally water displacement formula number 40 developed in World War II to remove water from ignition systems on engines being used in trucks delivering War materials during World War II. That's it. You make a mistake and you say that WD-40 is a range of different products. It is in the last few years. But the WD-40 is a singular product and it is not a lubricant. It is primarily reconstituted fuel oil which also is not a lubricant
@28704joe14 сағат бұрын
Wrong-O , it was not developed during or near WWII . It was created in 1953 , look it up.
@ronblack787013 сағат бұрын
it was literaly created to stop ICBM's from corroding in their silos. that is not a myth.
@DAT240Z722 күн бұрын
It’s a lubricant! Water can be a lubricant! WD40 just isn’t a great lubricant. But it does have anti-friction properties.
@sambrose12 күн бұрын
Exactly 💯
@LubricationExplained2 күн бұрын
It’s true - just about anything can be a lubricant. It’s more about intent - I think I said it elsewhere, just because your mouth CAN suck air, doesn’t make it a vacuum cleaner. My main issue is actually on industrial sites, where I’ve seen technicians use WD40 in place of a chain oil, or instead of a grease, because they think it’s a lubricant like the other products.
@joshrodgers936616 сағат бұрын
Don't clean any firearms with that line of thinking. It won't turn out well.
@rickw.92983 күн бұрын
Did you identify any ingredients which would support the claim of moisture control or elimination?
@LubricationExplained2 күн бұрын
Great question. So moisture elimination is most likely a property of the surface tension (wettability) of the petroleum solvents. This is the same property as used in dedicated penetrating oils. Long term protection is likely in the form of some corrosion inhibitor - but they don’t tend to show up in the SDS.
@rickw.9298Күн бұрын
@ Surface tension is an interesting thought. I was thinking something like a bit of ethanol or other alcohol as part of the formula.
@ronblack787013 сағат бұрын
@@LubricationExplained one guy i know said it has fish oil in it. he said he uses it when going fishing as bait somehow .
@kmg50120 сағат бұрын
I think that in most cases that call for cleaning and lubrication of small parts with WD-40 can be instead handled by using kerosene or a mix of kerosene and a common oil like 3 in one. People just use WD-40 because it comes in a very convenient package of a spray can.
@joshrodgers936616 сағат бұрын
Kerosene is horribly toxic. That's why we don't use that anymore. My grandma has severe health issues from working at a weed eater plant that shipped parts in kerosene for years.
@LubricationExplained7 сағат бұрын
I think it's become a default in the same way "Kleenex" has become synonymous with "facial tissue" or "Google it" for internet searches. Once you've occupied that brain space in a consumer's mind, they don't even think of an alternative. It's the ultimate brand flex.
@michaelmackey75416 сағат бұрын
I use WD-40 to spray on my cement molds before I pour the cement in and it works really well
@LubricationExplained7 сағат бұрын
Interesting - it has never occurred to me to ever use it as a mould release agent.
@johnc751222 сағат бұрын
You should review ballistol the best lube for metal and wood.
@MAsWorld110 сағат бұрын
If there was higher viscosity oil dissolved in the naphtha, wouldn’t it be left behind when the solvent evaporates? , also providing corrosion protection? Thats what I thought WD-40 was : oil dissolved in solvent ( mostly solvent)
@LubricationExplained7 сағат бұрын
It would - the problem is the proportions. You need to dilute a higher viscosity oil with a lot of low vis to get the penetrating properties. So that really reduces the "lubrication" properties alot.
@ArmiteLubricants2 күн бұрын
Thanks!
@LubricationExplained2 күн бұрын
You're welcome! Thanks so much for the super thanks!
@rhr-p7w2 күн бұрын
What do you think about using gear oil mixed with acetone, as a wd replacement? Thank you
@JetSkiBuyFixPlaySellChannelКүн бұрын
1:1 acetone to atf fluid is one of the best penetrating fluids. Possibly what Marvel Mystery oil is most similar to.
@GT-mn3bx14 сағат бұрын
Gear oil stinks too bad. I'd use the leftover amount in an engine oil bottle or ATF bottle.
@ronblack787013 сағат бұрын
synthetic gear oil doesn't stink like regular gear oil. those have sulphur as an EP additive so they stink.
@LubricationExplained7 сағат бұрын
Interesting idea - personally I'd go with a dedicated solution like the PTFE, graphite, or moly sprays that are available. These are able to penetrate, but leave behind a solid lubricant.
@rhr-p7w5 сағат бұрын
@@LubricationExplained Thank you very much for your answer!
@NaderBelaid7 сағат бұрын
I learned the hard way that it's not a lubricant. I once used it on a motorcycle part that required grease, and it melted the grease completely. I had to disassemble the part and regrease it. Since then, I've found it to be an excellent cleaner
@JT-qf4it15 сағат бұрын
You are spot on with your explanation. I have been trying to get people to understand that it is not a good lubricant for years. They are good at advertising.
@LubricationExplained7 сағат бұрын
Just to be clear, it's still a great product - just needs to be used correctly. It's highly misunderstood is all.
@JD-ky8tdКүн бұрын
What do you recommend as a good lubricant for cylinder walls in a newly machined engine block for installing pistons and providing temporary protection during the first startup? I've seen recommendations ranging from wd40 and penetrating oil to ATF and engine oil.
@lassikinnunenКүн бұрын
Assembly lube is the "correct" one.
@if-it-fits-I-sits17 сағат бұрын
Lucas oil stabilizer. It's only good use is as an assembly lube.
@ronblack787013 сағат бұрын
way lube . that has a sticky additive that keeps it from just wiping off
@johncoops68979 сағат бұрын
Assembly lube, but standard engine oil works just as well. The friction between the rings and cylinder is VITAL for a correct compression and oil sealing. You will glaze the cylinder walls if the surfaces are too well lubricated, and the rings will not bed in properly.
@LubricationExplained6 сағат бұрын
It's already been said, but assembly lubricants are dedicated to this kind of thing. You could probably use a running-in oil as well - they tend to be engine oils with a lower-spec base oil (because they don't need to last as long) but are more heavily additized to cope with running in conditions.
@bruceparr16783 күн бұрын
The manual for my 1984 MZ ETZ250 motorcycle instructs to apply grease to the final drive chain every 2500km. I have done this since I purchased the bike brand new. The first chain (not O ring) was still OK at 128,000km when I replaced it. Beats me how any of that grease gets into the pins.
@highsoap3 күн бұрын
probably suction as the parts of the chain moves and vibrates, the clearances will expand and contract which in turn can draw and push grease.
@KW-ei3pi22 сағат бұрын
Awesome video. Thank you very much. I noticed years ago the exact things you pointed out in the video. I have a question that would be very important regarding the use of WD-40 as a cutting fluid. Many in the field of machining steel and aluminum parts swear by WD-40 for it's use as a cutting fluid in drilling, tapping, and machining parts. I use it everyday for this purpose and find it excellent, especially on aluminum as it prevents it from sticking to the drill bit or cutter. Can you comment on this? Thank you again for posting. Regards.
@grungysquash111 сағат бұрын
Yep - I use WD40 to clean my motorbike chain, and clean it using a microfibre cloth. Then use motal grease to lube it. I also use it to clean my rims, and general engine parts from corrosion it does a great job doing that
Күн бұрын
I basically only use it to dissolve glue at this point. I use gasoline for cleaning and some garden variety actual lubricant for lubrication. It's not even that much more viscous, but it lasts for years rather than days.
@gj914712 күн бұрын
WD-40 only works for 3 days on noisy door hinges
@borism46292 күн бұрын
But petroleum jelly works wonders on internaldoor hinges and it doesn'tstink, 6 years and counting.
@gj914712 күн бұрын
@borism4629 petroleum jelly on hinges ? Oh dear......
@burp19142 күн бұрын
Don't use vegetable oil,,,,ask my wife
@JulietHotelFoxtrot2 күн бұрын
In a pinch I used butter once. It worked quite well.
@GregoryGlessnerViolin2 күн бұрын
FluidFilm works wonders on hinges. Automatic transmission fluid is great for machine screw threads.
@Gastell019 сағат бұрын
For me WD-40 was always a way to get water out and some oil in for something that's rusted where you can damage it by forcing it otherwise, then properly clean and apply fitting oil for the purpose.
@6gatornation15 сағат бұрын
i've been using their silicone on my heim joints (even though it doesn't work very well) Because I can't find anything else Have to spray them down after every ride
@JulietHotelFoxtrot2 күн бұрын
Yeah I've been pretty disappointed in WD-40. The product that I replaced it with is CRC power lube. They make two versions of it. One has PTFE in it, the other without. It's quite a bit cheaper than WD-40. Power Lube is quite thin, but actually has a bit of oil and wax dissolved in the spray. A strange wintergreen smell as well. I think you can find that in Australia. I quite like it for sealed motorcycle chains on dual sport bikes. Knocks a lot of the dirt off, leaves a really thin layer of oil and wax behind. Does have a tendency to fling a little bit, but some of the waxier dedicated motorcycle chain lubes don't wash the debris off as well. The WD-40 long-term corrosion inhibitor is a very good product. Extra extraordinarily pricey though. If it was cheaper, I would use that over a lanolin-based product for truck frame corrosion protection.
@johncoops68979 сағат бұрын
The Penetrol anti-rust spray is pretty good, leaves a non-sticky wax film. Not durable for hand tools like pliers, but good enough for storage. For example, I use it on twist drills etc that are in storage in Sydney AU (rust city) and no rust at all and does not get gummy. Of course, must clean and re-coat again before storing, since the coating disappears during use. The Penetrol works much better than Lanotec spray, which feels and smells nice but seems to not stop moisture very well. I only use Lanotec on commonly used tools like pliers. Never had any success with lanolin based (commercial) products on frames, as it's not durable at all, and literally washes off (even in normal rain). The solvents in the spray literally melts the small amount of lanolin, so you cannot build a decently thick coating with multiple applications. I guess slathering actual lanolin on would work if you could get an evenly thick coating everywhere, but that wouldn't wick in to crevices, etc.
@terryd0g2 күн бұрын
I'm curious about what residue would remain after all the short chains have boiled off. From the Wired spectral analysis it seems like it would leave a thin film of mineral oil. Maybe if you use a ton of wd-40 it would leave a thicker & more lubricating film?
@johncoops68979 сағат бұрын
Why bother. They sell oils that are specifically designed for lubricating chains, with the correct viscosity to work down into the working parts, yet not be flung off.
@samrijijkot15 сағат бұрын
an excellent video!
@daniel635biturbo2 күн бұрын
WD-40 is many things, I find it very useful, but not necessarily for lubrication. It's very good at penetrating and loosening hinges joints and bolts, and also cleaning away old grease. I had a car with a nasty grease spot on the backseat, it was gear oil from a weed wacker. WD-40 was the only thing that could penetrate and solve the gear oil in the fabric, and it did very well, leaving a near invisible stain, that did solve with hot soapy water. Last but not least, aluminium cutting, be that milling lathe or thread cutting, excellent. So very versatile product, but not lubrication.
@whatdoyouthinktoddКүн бұрын
Don't mind my grammar. I have very sore hands. So I talk into my phone. Sometimes I forget to put in punctuation, Sorry if that offends you. But you've been warned. I don't know if WD-40 is a lubricant. I personally don't care, but the video is very interesting. Thank you. I'm a retired machinist at 35 years. We used original WD-40 as a lubricant when drilling aluminum or tapping aluminum. We all see used WD-40 when flattening something with every sandpaper or wet dry sandpaper. Spray w-40 on the sandpaper on a granite slab. Put your part on granite slab/paper. deck the part until flat. I also know that I read a can of WD-40 not too long ago. And it said something about using it like PB blaster that it could loosen bolts. I don't know if it was an original Can or was one of their other mixes. All I know is I have about 20 different cans of WD-40 out in my garage. I have mixed them all together at one time. That mixture was truly a lubricant.
@rotorhead582610 сағат бұрын
Machinist of 13 years here. My shop buys this stuff by the 55gal drum. We use it primarily for rust prevention, honing oil, and I occasionally use it for manual machining on aluminum. It cleans honing stones very well. It can protect steel from rusting for years if properly stored. I have found however that when stored for long periods it separates in our drum. When WD separates the thicker stuff at the bottom is more of a lubricant, the stuff at the top more of a solvent. If you never shake the can this might explain why it seems different between cans.
@sween18716 сағат бұрын
Wasnt it used be NASA, to keep water off their rockets before launching, or did i miss hear something along the way .
@chrissmith2114Сағат бұрын
I read once that WD-40 will wash out any existing lubricant and replace it with an adhesive
@ArmiteLubricants2 күн бұрын
Armite's 12|34® - for a visual, it is like WD40 on enhanced steroids. 12|34® is qualified by the DoD to MIL-PRF-81309H.
@ArmiteLubricants2 күн бұрын
It is also a true Lubricant
@LubricationExplained2 күн бұрын
There’s definitely a lot of WD40-adjacent products that are “true” lubricants. It is definitely interesting that you’ve got a MIL spec though!
@jameshisself73752 күн бұрын
Yes yes we understand WD-40 is not a lubricant. BUT- what it does do pretty well, is act as a solvent for existing grease in any given moving contact point. This has the effect of reflowing that grease into bare areas to effectively lubricate the contact point. With the grease that is already there. Which is more than likely to be the 'correct' lubricant for the location. Then it slowly evaporates away to leave the grease in place. Granted with frequent use before the evaporation the grease has inferior load handling to what it should have. I consider it most ideal in a contact point that already has grease and gets infrequent use. Package that in a handy spray can that also has a straw for pinpoint application and you have a useful product. Which does many many other things beside 'lubricate'.
@rainmannoodles15 сағат бұрын
My view is that WD-40 is “better than nothing” for a quick fix or if you don’t have anything else. Also for things that don’t experience much mechanical wear (or have loose tolerances where it doesn’t matter) like fence gate hinges, you’ll never really notice if the lubricating properties aren’t great because the rust prevention makes more of a difference there. That’s probably where the misconception comes from.
@AndreasR12 күн бұрын
Thank you so much!
@LubricationExplained2 күн бұрын
You're welcome!
@Ratalala13 сағат бұрын
Your microphone is low on volume !
@Four_Eyes4 сағат бұрын
Perfect for me.
@michaelnapolitano2032Күн бұрын
It's People.
@alexanderSydneyOzКүн бұрын
Wednesday is WD40 Day
@michaelf.21292 күн бұрын
Its just a simple petroleum solvent in aerosol form. When I could not open my garage locker at -35 Celsius - it helped as defroster . But its really short term problem solver. I’d not called it as well designed lubricant of course.
@LubricationExplained2 күн бұрын
Yep! I think they also put in some corrosion inhibitor and a little detergent to help with cleaning and for some anti-rust properties. But like you say it’s mainly to help with short term issues, and the idea is you follow up with a long term solution.
@John-is9nj13 сағат бұрын
My experience is that WD-40 is not that good for rust protection compared to just plain oil. Great for cleaning hard grease in the kitchen.
@iainamurrayКүн бұрын
I mean, it *is* a lubricant in the sense that it can be used to reduce friction on surfaces, and it says lubricant on the can (and it's a reasonable penetrating lubricant). It's just that it's not a very good lubricant and shouldn't really be used as such.
@KaLeB_2 күн бұрын
to me the wd40 advantage is to last in kinda of wet places.....but with much lubrication capabilities.....but still better some then nothing......i got a drop of it on my car paint years ago and a left it to see till when it woul last ( job car with just soap washes and rains, no wax...)........with about a year it could be seen there.....of course a trace of it, but it was still there......
@LubricationExplained2 күн бұрын
Oh definitely better than nothing! Plus its anti-rust capability is very welcome in most environments. Where I find people mainly run into issues is using it as a substitute for a “true” lubricant. You’d be surprised how many times I see it on industrial sites…
@johnc751222 сағат бұрын
The hell it ain't a lubricant. Tell that to my squeaky doors that wd40 fixed.
@wyattroncin94117 сағат бұрын
WD-40 is as much of a lubricant as spit or water based intimate lube. It'll keep working as long as you keep applying it, but it dries out fast and leads to chafing
@meinkamph532715 сағат бұрын
WD-40 will evaporate. For many years I was an auto technician. WD-40 is absolutely a waste of money. Use Marvel Mystery Oil, or transmission fluid. Save ur soul.....
@GT-mn3bx14 сағат бұрын
Both of those evaporate also. So does engine oil, or even gear oil. Eventually. WD is a great light lube, but they have other products for actual lube, and different situations.
@meinkamph532713 сағат бұрын
@GT-mn3bx You are so wrong
@GT-mn3bx12 сағат бұрын
@meinkamph5327 Really? Go pour some in the dirt. Or search evaporative loss.
@cr0wsky2 күн бұрын
Very educational, good video, thanks!
@tireballastserviceofflorid77712 күн бұрын
Well it's not a lubricant. Simply a corrosion preventative. That's why it sucks as a lubricant.
@mikeadler4342 күн бұрын
👍👍
@hot99pasКүн бұрын
Watch last 3 minutes of video, question is answered?
@theonetrueking18692 күн бұрын
I personally find LPS to be better
@CedroCron17 сағат бұрын
WD = Water Displacement, 40 = 40th revision of the formula.
@chrissmith2114Сағат бұрын
The clue id in the name WD = Water Dispersant ( formula 40 ) - good for cleaning paint but not much else
@WrenchHead12 сағат бұрын
One thing that was missed. WD40 makes a good manly cologne or air freshener 😂😂
@AndrewMobly2 күн бұрын
I like the smell
@sambrose12 күн бұрын
Soooo? If nobody would argue that petroleum is a lubricant and wd is mostly petroleum how is it not a lubricant? The best no but it is one and anybody that would argue that can walk across a cement floor sprayed down the the stuff and see how their butt feels about it when they slip and bust it😂
@LubricationExplained2 күн бұрын
Hahahaha! Good point. I guess it’s all a matter of of degrees and intent. So for example, your mouth can suck, and it can create a vacuum, and therefore it can pick up dirt from the floor. But I wouldn’t call it a vacuum cleaner 🤣🤣
@charliepyle16263 сағат бұрын
you just said it is a lubricant. clickbait bs
@justinwhitaker353712 сағат бұрын
It's a good hand cleaner 😂
@timothydevries3832 күн бұрын
So... it's overpriced gasoline.
@heathhill780220 сағат бұрын
WD 40 is a penitration lube , it works well for a particular use .if you want to waste it by yseing it for lube , ok But oil works better If you want to waste money by using it to loosen rust over and over ,ok Probably should just protect from rust