For you future projects i would recommend using WD40 for a lubricant, as water (in most cases) will slow you down due to it wanting to stick to itself and as well as the rotating parts. However, i understand if you don't like the idea of oily residue on your legos.
@rctv99749 ай бұрын
Silicone lubricant is far better for lego
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
I did it first with water and noticed how much it spread on my table, so I decided to stay with it... Maybe next time I'll try it...
@jonathanroell83429 ай бұрын
What about graphite from a pencil? I’ve seen other people use it as a lubricant before
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
@@jonathanroell8342 Good idea! Thanks!
@lord_scrubington9 ай бұрын
wd40 isn;t really the best lube tbh, its only marginally better than water and is very short term something like bike chain lube would probably work best here
@Boomshaklav9 ай бұрын
*me trying to sleep at 3Am* the low ride Honda Civic with no exhaust pipes:
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
😂
@VanBourner9 ай бұрын
nah, these are RX-8s. Hondas are deep grumble that sounds like gas station toilet that is occupied.
@skywatcher3699 ай бұрын
😂😂😂 I miss my old Honda Civic EX!
@johannesdatblue41649 ай бұрын
Yep. Its exactly 3am for me aswell
@hyd1199 ай бұрын
Sounds like a Honda that can cook Minute Rice in 58 seconds 😂😂
@owensbricktest9 ай бұрын
Oh hey, that was my record!! I guess I’ll have to go back to the drawing board and give it another go! Congratulations and nice build!!
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
I know bro, now it's mine...😏 I would like to see a second version of your model!
@FuriousFire8989 ай бұрын
Bro we need a series of back and forth faster and faster! It’d give you more motivation
@aidanfogleman20609 ай бұрын
@FuriousFire898 Competition drives innovation!
@Marder_IFV9 ай бұрын
@@FuriousFire898we meet again furious fire
@FuriousFire8989 ай бұрын
@@Marder_IFV we met before?
@dreemurrgaming77669 ай бұрын
i love how the first version sounds like an F1 car revving it's engine XD
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
😎
@Bowl8493 ай бұрын
@@LucasDynamicswhat’s the point of the black part that you move?
@AMDRyzen57500F22 күн бұрын
@@Bowl849 the vacuum is sucking in air from the black thing, when the black thing is closed, barely any air comes through. But when the black thing is opened, air flows through and spins the blades, it isnt that complicated. The black thing is used as a throttle controller
@Bowl84922 күн бұрын
@@AMDRyzen57500F oh ok thanks!
@naoehodark9 ай бұрын
vacuum machine ❌ f1 v10 engine ✅
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
😎
@SpoonEditz7 ай бұрын
renault one
@nicholasstanton95755 ай бұрын
BWAH.
@Zhako-f7c3 ай бұрын
The most menace video out of all lego videos
@AppleLauda_destroyer999423 ай бұрын
Power restricted V10 lol
@SpeedyySlugz9 ай бұрын
Use a rpm reading thing. The gears used to measure the rpm put a lot of drag on the system. You can hear there is a big difference with the rpm with and without
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
Yeah, without it, it would be definitely faster!
@ccoder49539 ай бұрын
There's another way you can estimate speed - sound. Record the audio with it spinning at a known speed. Put the audio in a audio program (like Audacity) and have it do a spectrogram. You should see a strong peak at the known speed. That corresponds to the speed (albeit in revolutions per second instead of minute) or a multiple of it. Then take the gears off and repeat. You should see that peak move, so now you can recalculate and get the speed.
@Google_Corporation9 ай бұрын
Worm gears are famously inefficient. Like 50% efficient. If he needs to record speed but needs a reduced output, use spur gears, as they're typically 99-99.9% efficient. I've had extremely low power systems with 300:1 spur gear reductions run totally fine, but one worm gear, regardless of the ratio, will kill the same motor.
@Ghorda99 ай бұрын
@@LucasDynamics just use an IR laser to detect the revolutions.
@taylorquimby40049 ай бұрын
@@Ghorda9Bingo! I was thinking a hall effect but your idea would be 🤏 that much more accurate. 😁👍
@Ranstone9 ай бұрын
Remember, tightening the gap in the top only decreases power, as the rotating fins are pushing against the suction there.
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
You mean the first version? But generally, where do they rotate against the vacuum?
@YuuExussum9 ай бұрын
@@LucasDynamics That threw me for a loop for a minute lol.
@jaysansnom33119 ай бұрын
Thats like resticting the exhaust
@lightyear-o3y6 ай бұрын
use oil instead of oil
@LucasDynamics5 ай бұрын
Next time I will use graphite powder!
@tommydmot77255 ай бұрын
I laughed way too hard at this
@mandyay77655 ай бұрын
Lol
@MrRandom-D5 ай бұрын
what
@Goofy-ahh-veshremy5 ай бұрын
Use lubricant instead it doesn't make the plastic squishy
@PoorWorksmanship8 ай бұрын
Use a stronger vacuum
@Ryrylulu-lr1ly7 ай бұрын
67 likes but no comments let me fix that
@callme_henry7 ай бұрын
I’m sus
@eua48087 ай бұрын
Like a 45horse power air come presiser :) and yes i miss spelled it to make you feel pain form reading it.
@Luhcalmfr6 ай бұрын
Interstellar space🗿
@Failedtoname3 ай бұрын
The replies of this comment are so weird
@Noturmoney8 ай бұрын
I wonder what 12,000 rpm Lego shrapnel is like
@TheYourfaceable7 ай бұрын
Just like regular shrapnel but ™
@Noturmoney7 ай бұрын
@@TheYourfaceable 😂🫡
@youtube_stuff12484 ай бұрын
katana pencils
@IamKaiths9 ай бұрын
4:10 ..... That crack sound was amazing
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
😅
@mistermainer_fan3502 ай бұрын
Erm actually 4:11
@mistermainer_fan3502 ай бұрын
Yup
@AlexPro-db8iq9 ай бұрын
the one at the start sounds like a rotary engine, its crazy! cool video
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
Thanks mate!
@thatcreatenoob9 ай бұрын
no brap sadly
@AlexPro-db8iq9 ай бұрын
@@thatcreatenoob sadly
@MVGEN369 ай бұрын
@@thatcreatenoobi got a rotary turbine engine i made that i should post soon, the thing braps like crazy tested it out again, it sounds like a diesel😭
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
@@MVGEN36😂
@faraday92349 ай бұрын
HUGE TIP: Use graphite powder as a lubricant.
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
I will!
@faraday92349 ай бұрын
@@LucasDynamics😁✌️
@faraday92349 ай бұрын
@LucasDynamics Also using the gear reduction to measure is smart but remember it adds load to the system leeching power.
@LucasDynamics8 ай бұрын
@@faraday9234Yeah I will use a laser measurement tool next time...
@SETPOOL3 ай бұрын
its upgrade time 😎 @@LucasDynamics
@SpeedDan69Ай бұрын
2:34 when musquito tries to wake me up
@johnm92639 ай бұрын
usually, we use oil rather than water because water has a much higher surface tension on top of being more reactive with our traditional metal engine components, generating rust which weakens the components on top of their existing wear and tear a "dry" counterpart is graphite
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
I will use Graphite next time...
@khaoitc9 ай бұрын
When you are so much into legos that durability of the parts becomes and issue. Btw this was really cool. Gz man
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
😂 Yeah it's sometimes quite problematic...
@jurekgadzinowski28957 ай бұрын
Lego bricks, not legos.
@LucasDynamics7 ай бұрын
@@jurekgadzinowski2895 Logos is also correct!
@LucasDynamics7 ай бұрын
@@jurekgadzinowski2895 Logos is also correct!
@Drive-X-Gaming9 ай бұрын
I think it would be faster if it didn’t have to spin the rpm calculator
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
Yeah, it would make quite a difference! But until I have such a laser measurement device, I have to use those gears...
@joshmarchant6049 ай бұрын
A bit of silicone spray lube (jig-a-loo or similar) will save a lot of wear on your moving parts and likely help get higher rpm than water.
@YolandaPlayne9 ай бұрын
I think the style of his experiment is that he didn't use anything complicated, even manually timing the RPM only took a few more Legos instead of digital tools.
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
@@YolandaPlayneYeah correct!
@AHSEN.9 ай бұрын
For a future version, perhaps you can get metal technic axles so they don't wear out quite as much? Also, someone below mentioned using an "rpm reading thing" for better speed due to decreased load on the shaft... if you do this, I also recommend using a wheel with a marking on it instead of the spinning tooth thingy, to minimize vibration. I look forward to this series of competing engines :P
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
Yeah! I will use a laser measurement tool next time…
@AangxSonicАй бұрын
Lamborghini Huracan😂 0:47
@agaldoo9 ай бұрын
The first one sounds like a v12 and the second one sounds like a muffled v8
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
Yeah the sound is pretty nice!
@joaoarielaraujo51769 ай бұрын
I agree
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
@@joaoarielaraujo5176 👍👌
@Desmiwasme9 ай бұрын
😮
@guilhermehu3br9 ай бұрын
@@joaoarielaraujo5176 war thunder sounds
@mr.olivertus37269 ай бұрын
You built the Mazda 7vacuum7b! Congratulations 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👍🏻. Sounds so great in the beginning
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
Yes! Thank you!
@kdpwt8 ай бұрын
Lol man of culture
@FuSiionCraft9 ай бұрын
Water isn't a lubricant, it's an abrasive... You need oil. Plain oil, olive oil, motor oil, whatever oil. But an oil.
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
Or Graphite...
@Ghorda99 ай бұрын
no fossil fuel based oil, it would destroy the plastic.
@swealer9 ай бұрын
Lithium grease would work, right?
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
@@swealerYeah!
@skunkwerx96749 ай бұрын
Ah yeah. Oil right into the vacuum. Genius.
@mandyay77655 ай бұрын
This is crazy! Nice wok Edit: The sound of u building is sooo ASMR
@stephaniewilliams5887 ай бұрын
5:12 let’s see if we can finally beak the record
@chrisjohnson53049 ай бұрын
For what this video was it was highly entertaining. Love it
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
Thanks man!
@TITAn-ef6vy9 ай бұрын
Sounds better than most of the cars nowadays.
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
Yeah😅
@NuttyJamesGMD8 ай бұрын
*4-rotor intensifies*
@Hardcore..5 ай бұрын
My BMW M3 GTR
@BrokenPotYT9 ай бұрын
I have never seen more potentially dangerous lego in my life.
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
It was!
@billymanilli9 ай бұрын
Nice!! Incorporate some ceramic ball bearing into that thing... it'll REALLY rip, then :) edit: and the gear reduction timing mechanism really slows it down too, I bet
@AngelMahir-ow4wd8 ай бұрын
Why does the newer model sound like a McLaren
@LucasDynamics8 ай бұрын
I don't know 😅
@danmayberry67179 ай бұрын
That's absolutely amazing bro! That's cool as hell!
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
Glad you like it!
@camillefayolle1157Ай бұрын
Vacuum engine ❌ Lamborghini V12 engine ✅
@nathansandwich557924 күн бұрын
I prefer a K 24😂
@Onlyspaceman21 күн бұрын
The amount of intelligence in this comment section is insane
@lamuzzo51205 ай бұрын
That one mosquito at 3AM:
@aval19989 ай бұрын
Made a similar vacuum turbine that had triple the blade length and double the width, with an air inlet the same length as the turbine. Spun not as fast but that thing made a crazy amount of torque!
@tescoshortage9 ай бұрын
Congratulations, you just made a supercharger.
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
Yes I did
@gilbertowayda36699 ай бұрын
It sounds like it too
@the_glitched-toxic14718 ай бұрын
Actually rotor vacuum engine with Supercharger
@greendragonfly48319 ай бұрын
The simplicity is pleasing
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
Yeah😎
@Thedorkydonkey9 ай бұрын
So, lemme get this straight: this guy built the WORLD'S FASTEST vacuum engine with LEGOS?
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
Yeah I did😎
@user-jt9999 ай бұрын
It's fastest LEGO vacuum engine NOT world's fastest vacuum engine
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
@@user-jt999That's what the title says...
@user-jt9999 ай бұрын
@@LucasDynamics yea but the other guy thought that you built fastest engine with Legos
@Stumpythelog3 ай бұрын
What a underrated content creator that not only makes good videos but interacts with his fan base, easy sub
@NunyaBizness-p8yАй бұрын
Wow. Closest thing well ever see to a Lego Carburetor.
@Omnywrench8 ай бұрын
At first I thought you were creating an actual vacuum with legos, like something that sucks up air through the power of legos somehow.
@LucasDynamics8 ай бұрын
I will try to do that soon!
@Karshaper9 ай бұрын
I just discovered your channel from this, love what you do!
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
Thanks man!
@legomocmaker26469 ай бұрын
Amazing stuff, really cool mechanism 👏
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
Thanks mate!
@Zhade_126 ай бұрын
3:55 thanks for showing the water, else I would not have known how it looks. Amazing video by the way.
@LucasDynamics6 ай бұрын
Thanks 😎
@Randomuploads9996 ай бұрын
I love the fact that you put “asmr” in the description 😂
@artoturunen48165 ай бұрын
1:11 Wouldn't it be better without the dust bag?
@-ul7lhАй бұрын
Yes, but have u ever seen a vacuum cleaner without the dust bag?
@artoturunen4816Ай бұрын
@@-ul7lh Every time I open the latch and just remove it before putting it back. I'm thinking about the resistance to air flow it causes when used in an application like this :P
@watermelon26249 ай бұрын
4:50 sounds like a Murcielago
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
😎
@G31M18 ай бұрын
I immediately had to think about my beloved Porsche Carrera GT. Not that I own one but it has been my favorite car since childhood
@LucasDynamics8 ай бұрын
Yeah😎
@LegoWondersOfficialАй бұрын
Your videos are a fantastic way to unwind and learn something new.
@Debelintsck666kC3 ай бұрын
It's a three stroke rotor engine First stroke: vacuum goes from the vacuum cleaner into the rotor chamber and the rotor starts to rotate Second stroke: vacuum in the rotor turns into air Third stroke: the rotary engine spits out air from its chamber and so on in a cycle BUT if we install a spark plug, then the 3-stroke engine will become a 4-stroke (at first glance) and the spark plug simply will not ignite the vacuum mixture
@BrainActivity19 ай бұрын
I was sure i read "4,74m subscribers" sadly an k and not an m, which you deserve. Im 100% sure you there in a couple years :)
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
That would be cool, but I'm on my way...
@mintymillk7 ай бұрын
0:00 Music to my ears
@chadsenate8 ай бұрын
This 6 minutes video sounds more exciting than the entire season of F1 these past few years.
@LucasDynamics8 ай бұрын
Thanks man! This comment made my day😅
@oo-kaylol6 күн бұрын
Really sounds like a rotary engine from the Mazda 787B Le Mans hypercar! Good job!👏
@kytkinpommiracing9 ай бұрын
Imagine if one of those lego inside it comes loose. It will get sucked up by the vacum and dissappear in to the oblivion😂
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
Nah, I would rescue it from the dust bag...
@zztop73069 ай бұрын
Obviously it doesn't make boost but this is basically a vacuum driven roots style supercharger
@eddraouyayman6 ай бұрын
Actually the word record is 14000 rpm. (By: Owen Vansanten)
@tracypanavia46348 ай бұрын
A lot of comments debating the best lubricant to use on your Legos, but nobody has mentioned sewing machine oil. I think that would be a good choice.
@LucasDynamics8 ай бұрын
Good point, but I think Graphite powder is even better...
@Bandicoot8039 ай бұрын
Back then I managed to put in ball bearings on the shaft to ensure less friction and a greater longevity of the axle and components whenever I build remote controlled cars. Even the originally supplied 9V motors were stripped of their sleeve bearings and equipped with tiny ball bearings I pulled from dead 40mm PC cooler fans.
@messor-was-not-available9 ай бұрын
I built it and it's sooo powerful❤❤ Thank you for that amazing creation
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
You're welcome!
@illusorybucket57039 ай бұрын
I don't even have any Lego, but I watch these every time they show up
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
Because Lego is cool😎
@theoneandonlyparsa9 ай бұрын
The sound in the beginning sounds like a Mazda 787B😂
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
😎
@nomusicrc9 ай бұрын
I clicked on this by accident I'm glad I did
@LucasDynamics8 ай бұрын
Nice!
@DerosnCehhe3 ай бұрын
your video was a brilliant blend of information and creativity!
@TheWafflesGD9 ай бұрын
THIS SOUNDS LIKE AN A CAR 😂😂😂
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
Yeah, it does!
@Powerful29227 ай бұрын
yeah!!!!!
@Buttcoinstashguy7 ай бұрын
Subscribing 😊
@hanselleonard76337 ай бұрын
No it sounds like a supercharger
@Fredabawls7 ай бұрын
Nah more like a tuned rotary engine@@hanselleonard7633
@shelicesnze9 ай бұрын
What person did you beat?
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
Just look for one of the top comments...
@EliaxLavrix__8 ай бұрын
I can smell burnt axles from here😂
@LucasDynamics8 ай бұрын
Yeah😅
@ilhanovic8 ай бұрын
For your future motors, I would recommend using wall pieces instead of bricks (or even having the wall pieces inside and the bricks outside for stability). This could result in less air escaping from the walls and lead to higher rotations.
@LucasDynamics8 ай бұрын
Yeah good idea!
@superkidwindows8 ай бұрын
Bro calmly made a mini air raid siren.
@LucasDynamics8 ай бұрын
Yeah😅
@superkidwindows8 ай бұрын
@@LucasDynamicswell done ngl! Make another air raid siren XD 😂
@LucasDynamics8 ай бұрын
@@superkidwindows I will make a 3.0 version...
@superkidwindows8 ай бұрын
@@LucasDynamics awesome.. im gonna recreate xd
@LucasDynamics8 ай бұрын
@@superkidwindows 😏
@inconsistenttutorialuploader9 ай бұрын
2:39 that piece was bending bro
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
💀Which one?
@inconsistenttutorialuploader9 ай бұрын
@@LucasDynamics the roof
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
*At 5:08 I meant "break" and at 5:45 "vibrates"... I really don't know how this happened 🥲
@JustTheRat019 ай бұрын
it may vibrate due to imbalance, like one moving part is slightly heavier or lighter than others might just be the air moving real fast might be friction between parts also powd graphite is a lubricant, literally just pencil lead but crushed up
@Davis_the_dude9 ай бұрын
@@JustTheRat01 he means he doesn't know how he made that mistake
@JustTheRat019 ай бұрын
@@Davis_the_dude my bad i was just tryna help
@TheGoldNinja1019 ай бұрын
Oh, I get it, it seems that you're getting light lag. You're at a point the RPM becomes its own gravity, causing the weaker side to break. That's just a theory.
@TRB_TheRedBrick9 ай бұрын
@@TheGoldNinja101A PHYSICS THEORY (physics theory intro starts playing)
@ae_masterАй бұрын
i smell melted lego axles
@HaiJethMa9 ай бұрын
What you did here is genius, so nice to watch an engineer using just legos to entertain us
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
Thanks mate!
@Face621Ай бұрын
I never thought there would be a world record for the fastest spinning vacuum Lego engine
@mussammetbegum5119 ай бұрын
sounded like an f1 car at the start
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
Yeah, it does!
@prezes36448 ай бұрын
1:25 KABOOM!
@LucasDynamics8 ай бұрын
👌😂
@chriss34049 ай бұрын
why did i hear the half life 1 ladder sound at 4:26 lmaoooo
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
😂
@lesliepuiras18856 ай бұрын
Congratulations on the “most viewed lego vacuum turbine” video on KZbin 🎉
@Thecoolone83Ай бұрын
Vacuum engine? No just a hell cat flying off the free way 😀
@Kabukkafa8 ай бұрын
Oh wait, minecraft create mod is basicaly lego at this point
@LucasDynamics8 ай бұрын
Yap, kind of😅
@romanko21418 ай бұрын
The start sounds like adults speaking in Charlie Brown movie
@LucasDynamics8 ай бұрын
😅
@RASXv7EX9 ай бұрын
0:50 sound like a LFA
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
🤟
@DuoEditzYT8 ай бұрын
Pure heaven 🤤
@LucasDynamics8 ай бұрын
@@DuoEditzYT 😎
@SimonSprunki13 ай бұрын
@@DuoEditzYT🏎️💨
@TheEightshot2 ай бұрын
Kind of surprised it didn't friction weld itself together at those speeds. Well done.
@minifrogYT4 ай бұрын
i love how you make it gradually better and add on to it. so coool
@VEC7ORlt9 ай бұрын
LEGO - lets make all kinds of technic toys - kids with said technic toys - spinny shit goes broom-broom! Well I mean who didn't do spinny things?
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
That's why I love Lego...
@dasvanat13699 ай бұрын
YOO THATS A SUPERCHARGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEER
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
Yeaaaaaaaaaah!
@skyemerald48337 ай бұрын
2:22 good luck removing those....
@GorillaDoesGaming6 ай бұрын
Nasa: *trying to find a way to get go mars* This guy making a particle accelerator out of legos
@LucasDynamics6 ай бұрын
😎
@GorillaDoesGaming6 ай бұрын
W
@leyrua3 ай бұрын
You have excellent thumbnails on your hands. I feel a lot of personality on those thumbs.
@LucasDynamics3 ай бұрын
Ok 😂
@badcropbean9 ай бұрын
3:24 id recommend getting the upside down tiles for the gap (lego part 11203)
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
Yeah, good idea!
@Banana-3-4-5-sn7k7 ай бұрын
Is bro a math mathematician? 1:40
@ll-fd4xn2 ай бұрын
Simple
@phgeff2 ай бұрын
buddy its literally division and multiplication
@littlefloss._.9 ай бұрын
4:59 SO close to 11111
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
Yeah😅
@gage11089 ай бұрын
Congrats on beaking the record!
@LucasDynamics9 ай бұрын
Thanks man!
@emmanuelcadampog22652 ай бұрын
4:49 WOW NICE ENGINE NOISE
@KorGiiYt8 ай бұрын
3:54 smoothening oil works better
@Pleyer7575lol3 ай бұрын
or 0w20 engine oil lol
@chesterdeguzman67893 ай бұрын
AMERICA 🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅!!!!!!!!!!🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
@KorGiiYt3 ай бұрын
wth
@jacobpoirier7778 ай бұрын
2:38 the vacum sound like its saying *ss
@LucasDynamics8 ай бұрын
😎
@jacobpoirier7777 ай бұрын
@@LucasDynamics ?
@ElTurbinado9 ай бұрын
5:08 record beaker lol
@briandoss92325 ай бұрын
Huh. Interesting. I love seeing the scientific process there! Nice job!
@LucasDynamics5 ай бұрын
Thanks!
@Engineer_Ed7 ай бұрын
just subscribed! :) Love this channel. This may defeat the idea of your designs... but can you implement bearings?
@LucasDynamics6 ай бұрын
Thank you for subscribing! I tested a few similar things...