Luna's Tantabus Caused Every Conflict in MLP:FiM

Luna didn't become Nightmare Moon on her own... something external changed her. But not only her.
Thanks to ‪@anonsheepdog154‬ and ‪@stunthead‬ for their help with this project, and their patience despite my straggling!
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‪@stunthead‬
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[@silveryuno]

Kinda convoluted, but the idea of the evil spirt being a hidden source of evil that ponies aren't aware of is a very interesting! Scary even...

[@adolfodef]

. SOMEPONY ™ built *"The Well of Shade"* ® in the underground of an Apple Clan town [ _"Hollow Shades"_ ]. . The Earth-Pony Tribe also created the *Mirror Pond* in the middle of the _Everfree_ Forest (this time, the Pie Clan), with some earthpony (presumably the previous librarian of Ponyville) hiding a book with a reference to it. There is an ( *actually* secret) _"Secret Cabal"_ that is working through the ages, building & operating powerful magical devices in the (metaphorical) shadows; working as "Deep State" that does not rely on the current "government" lead by Celestia/Twilight. -> It goes even through other worlds (the "Quicksand Portal" in Equestria Girls: "Spring Brakedown" ); possibly also explaining the existence of "Portal Maintenance" Books in the Library of C.H.S. & the presence of magical objects from Equestria (like the Time Twirler from "EQG: Sunset´s Backstage Pass") in the middle of nowhere [the water stream of a forest, hours away from permanent populated places].

[@JoshuaA1307]

I was thinking this spirit is Grogar…. The real one

[@jetragnarok2075]

like in the anafabula theory. Goat grogar is a shadow of his true form@@JoshuaA1307

[@aaronmarkenson7717]

I totally agree 👍 with you about that thing existence in real life except I don't believe it is a spirit write me back ill get to what I think it is

[@stc1538]

YEAH! ​@@JoshuaA1307

[@alyarin9000]

In a way, the Pony of Shadows is the purest form of this entity. In all other creatures, it blended in more with its host - but with the pony of shadows, it was purely in control, and that perhaps made it harder for it to flee. It seems that the stronger the pony, the less power the 'shadow' gifts them - perhaps because their own magic gives them some resistance to its direct control. Their own desires override it, like Luna with eternal night. Stygian's very weakness is what made him the ideal host. If the Pony of Shadows is the purest form of this symbiote, then its words regarding it are probably the most accurate. Stygian called it 'the shadow', but the Pony of Shadow's own words are that it was made "in the Well of Shade". A 'well' extracts a substance from something. Therefore, for the past 6 years, I have called this symbiote... Shade. It was amazing to see someone else independently come to the same conclusions!

[@lunakingsley.7247]

Even the pony of shadows had some of stygians personality traits and desires, it did have more determination then him though.

[@adolfodef]

_"Shade, The Shadow Symbiote"_

[@alyarin9000]

@@adolfodef The show made me name it that, that's my excuse! D: Just calling it 'the shadow' and 'the darkness' felt so... Impersonal. Abstract. Vague. Shade as a proper noun makes it feel so much more like a character. But yeah, Shade. An omnipresent entity constructed solely of dark magic, who cares for nothing but causing more misery and more negative emotions... You can't get away from it being edgy as hell.

[@nightflame389]

The comics (I think, don't quote me on this) initially called it "the Nightmare" I personally named this spirit "Erebus" after the G1 villain

[@lunakingsley.7247]

The comics kinda contradict the later seasons unfortunately.

[@malachiwonder6800]

The idea of the magic abandoning the host right before defeat is a very creative and creepy one. Thanks Cantersoft!

[@purehyper124]

Luna nightmare is only making her reenact the role of nightmare moon but is still Luna, that is why she is confident, she knows this dream will play out certain way ,also is why she is upset, and suspired the tantabus left before and after being cured in the dream.

[@JadenYukifan28]

Also, the Tantabus grew stronger each time she had the "dream", which resulted in it trying to escape the collective dream she created to attempt to stop it. It wasn't until what Twilight asked Luna, that the latter finally was able to stop it on her own.

[@SnowLily06]

Exactly it's literally stated by Luna that her dreams can never end happily

[@JadenYukifan28]

@@SnowLily06 Because she felt guilty for what she did as Nightmare Moon, though she couldn't help it since her anger and jealousy took over and caused her to transform into the latter.

[@MrAlice613]

This feels like a lot of reaching. Luna doesn’t necessarily need an external source to become more powerful. The whole crux of the series is that the power is within you, ie during the final confrontation with the legion of doom when Twilight states the the elements are just symbols. The reason why Luna becomes “stronger” as Nightmare Moon is because she becomes reckless and self destructive. Compare to when the Kirin become Niriks. They seem “more powerful” because they’re allowing their emotions to run rampant. Same goes for Nightmare Moon. Celestia can’t beat her not because she’s less powerful than her, but because she’s not willing to go to the extreme lengths that Nightmare Moon is. And the reason Nightmare Moon wasn’t defeated by the elements in her dream is because it was a dream specifically constructed to play out that way as an exercise is self loathing.

[@Cantersoft]

Your point with the Kirin is valid-- they have a specific ability that is activated by anger. This might apply to Luna, but it also might not. In "Luna Eclipsed", the way she describes herself after having lost her dark power as a result being defeated by Twilight & co. implies that she saw her darkness as something separate from herself. Having the potential to become something else doesn't necessitate that it was always within oneself, or a matter of emotions alone, although I do believe the emotional state is an integral part of it for Luna. If Nightmare Moon's ability to resist the Elements of Harmony in her dream was controlled by her self-loathing, then it wouldn't make sense that following the Tantabus's escape, she would show visible concern, and then be defeated immediately after. Keep in mind that it is the EVIL version of Luna who is concerned about losing the Tantabus-- so her concern is certainly not over the Tantabus causing problems outside her control. That's probably the only aspect to the Tantabus's escape that she was glad for.

[@MrAlice613]

@@Cantersoft I feel like you're approaching this from the wrong perspective. MLP:FiM is, at its core, a story about the way that your own choices can lead you astray or bring you redemption (ie the redemption arcs of Starlight Glimmer, Trixie, the Changelings, Discord, etc), so we should engage with the story on those terms. Within the context of the original story, the Tantabus is a direct creation of Luna made to torment herself out of a misplaced belief that she deserves to suffer. That is all it needs to be. It doesn't have to secretly be some big bad. It can just be an allegory for self-loathing. As for seeing her darkness as something separate from herself, that doesn't mean that it actually was separate from herself. It just means that she has a hard time reconciling her own feelings of guilt. Plenty of people in the real world struggle with that (which is the whole point of FiM, to relate to the real world). And again, the reason that Nightmare Moon was immune to the elements during the dream is because it was a dream specifically crafted to be that way. There's no deeper meaning beyond that. Luna wanted to punish herself, so she made a dream where she can't be stopped from hurting her friends. Technically, it isn't even Nightmare Moon in the dream. It's Luna playing the role of Nightmare Moon as an exercise in self-flagellation. So of course she'd be upset when the means of her own self punishment escaped into the dreams of someone else.

[@VeneficusCubes]

I have multiple head canons about this topic. Never dived into "real canon" of the show

[@lumi5783]

Could you perhaps share some of them? I have a many headcanons regarding the show as well, I'd love to hear your thoughts

[@fluttershyisnotadoormat4678]

I kind of thought that the pony of shadows managed to split some part of itself and avoid getting caught in limbo to slowly regain power and free himself :3

[@TheMaskedDuo1987]

What i like to notice is that when the villians are in their most powerful form like stygian or nightmare moon, like look somewhat simular to the tantabus. I get that nightmare moon is kidna the tantabus but most of the villians become alicorns or have bolder horns.

[@lunakingsley.7247]

Nightmare moons transformation reminds me of to dragon ponies in my little pony 'n friends (ponies transformed by the rainbow of darkness.). And there is a similar negativity magic that seems to also be a thing (and humans seem to be able to use it similarly to ponies, like using it for dark magic. Kinda like sombra and grogar.). So I wouldn't be surprised if this thing is multidimensional

[@Cantersoft]

Interesting!

[@lunakingsley.7247]

@Cantersoft yeah. The rainbow of darkness and the witches magic have similarities to nightmares and dark magic in G4. (G1 grogar also mentions a place called the realm of darkness.)

[@aspenrose_]

this just made me realize that the elements of harmony are kinda just the rainbow of light. or the means of making one i suppose

[@lunakingsley.7247]

@@aspenrose_ oh yeah. My little pony 'n friends and my little pony friendship is magic parallel each other a lot (a fun example is Danny Williams as he seems to Close in age and shares a lot of personality traits with the cutie mark crusaders. The four are also cute and chaotic natural disasters.).

[@lunatwilight7439]

perhaps the moon itself fueled by her anger turned her in to nightmare moon and in the dream the tantabus replaced the moon as the trigger for the transformation. In a later episode the princesses swap roles and it was shown celesta could have a nightmare for as her new domain became night

[@anonamouse5917]

I'm impressed by this level of analysis. I'm a rather old pony (59), so I'll have to rewatch this a few times before it all sinks in.

[@animegirlman]

G5 still isnt cannon to me in 2024

[@Cantersoft]

That's the spirit! 😂

[@randomidiot8977]

Rumour has it that Luna's Tantabus was an alcoholic. Since attending an alcoholic's anonymous meeting and going teetotal, there is no longer any conflicts anymore in the MLP universe :)

[@normanclatcher]

I think I read that one in Fimfic. Like, actually.

[@luckybunny8322]

Considering how in the MLP world, emotions are a powerful force, being the kind of true source of the Elements of Harmony, as all of them are related to emotions in a sense, and dark emotions seem to also contain power, so it's logical that maybe Nightmare Moon's bitterness created the crux for a dark magic that consumes her whenever she turns into Nightmare Moon (with fangs, not without). Maybe this is what caused the others to change too. I see that that was kind of the point made in this thing, but I don't think it's an evil spirit, I think it's the opposite of the Elements of Harmony, maybe the Elements of Disharmony or something like that. It might be a "As long as there is good, there is evil" kind of concept.

[@miraculoustales3491]

The concept is similar to akumatization in Miraculous. Once the Akuma, a butterfly that holds evil/dark powers from the butterfly miraculous (magic tool/jewel) when used for evil. It is attracted to negative emotions from jealousy to anger to fear to sorrow, etc. Once they get in their evil form, their identity becomes the name provided to them and their purpose: both the reason they got akumatized that the butterfly holder makes them believe is the reason they were given "aid" (revenge, proving something) and getting the ladybug and cat miraculous (sort of like a transaction type of deal). While their consciousness are there somewhere, it is sort of trapped and hidden by the dominance of the negative feelings. Unless the villain is genuinely convinced of their wrongdoing (maybe reminded of their values in default mode for example), they wouldn't break out of that form unless the source of that power is found (not always the same thing). Even if found, the main source (power is still there, just not on the butterflies who are purified. If not purified, the butterfly will multiply to reach more people, getting stronger). The ones who are no longer akumatized only remember they were akumatized but their last memory is what they were feeling in the situation that triggered this akuma to reach them (injustice, misunderstanding, etc). However, no recollection of the harm and damage they caused during their villain form. Lots of similarities. The power gets its strength and sustainability through continuous negativity feeding the dark power, which also blinds the one being hit unless they have enough willpower to lean into reason and refuse those powers.

[@lunadventures]

😮😮😮

[@zoro4661WasTaken]

But...that start doesn't work out. The whole reason why Nightmare Moon wasn't afraid of the Elements, and why she retained her form after the Tantabus left, is because it _wasn't real_ - it was explicitly a dream. A nightmare with a scenario that Luna had put herself through again and again and again, every night, as self-made punishment for becoming evil. The reason why she looks so confused when the Tantabus goes away is because it went off-script, and instead of forcing Luna to face judgement or the horror of "her" evil ways, the Tantabus went out of her dream and she got "reformed" in the canon of that particular dream. It was like a director that forced her to relive her nightmare, except in this one instance it went away, allowing her to be 'reformed' and wake up. There _is_ a parasite, though - we explicitly see it take over Rarity (turning into Nightmare Rarity) in the comics, and an alternate universe Celestia (turning into Nightmare Star) in the card game. It's also possible that Daybreaker is a version of this, and that the Pony of Shadows is related in some way. This entity is the Queen of the Nightmare Forces - via dialogue when she takes over Rarity, we _know_ that it's the same symbiote that took over Luna, as it mentions that the Mane Six defeated her before.

[@zoro4661WasTaken]

You could certainly argue that some of the villains or their origins came from an ancestor of these forces, though. King Sombra was made by crystals harboring dark magic that opposed the Crystal Heart, the Windigos are evil spirits, as is the pony of Shadows, and so on and so forth. This many villains and monsters benefiting from negative emotions is certainly note-worthy. Another theory could be one similar to what Vision said in the Civil War movie - the mere fact that the Elements exist as a group again and are able to reform or at least beat back evil and negativity may invite challenge. The old heroes who used the Elements disappeared alongside the Pony of Shadows. After that, there presumably weren't many uses - Celestia and Luna use it against Discord, and later Celestia against Nightmare Moon. But with a new generation of heroes, a new Mane Six, there is also a new wave of mostly old threats to face. Windigos, changelings, Discord, Tirek, Sombra, even the Smooze - they've all existed for ages by the time FiM takes place.

[@Cantersoft]

Yes, but remember that the Tantabus is capable of escaping Luna's dreams into the real world. If the Tantabus managed to escape, then that would literally exemplify the procedure the darkness follows to grow from the negative energy of one host, and use the strength to attack new potential hosts. Luna's grief is ultimately the cause of her corruption, and the source of her corruption is what I assume also corrupted Nightmare Rarity. Although you are correct that the Tantabus is just a dream, and not real, it is a remaining specimen of Nightmare Moon in Luna. Nightmare Moon's dark magic was very real, and behaves basically the same as the Tantabus does.

[@zoro4661WasTaken]

@@CantersoftTrue, fair points!

[@cdcdrr]

I think the Tantabus is just what Luna states it is: an expression of self-hatred and a desire to be punished. That she got off 'too easy' for what she did as Nightmare Moon. And she turned into that because she believed she wasn't as good as her sister, inferior. Again an instance of self-loathing. Her dream of being victorious as Nightmare Moon because the Elements can't harm her seems like a way of exploring and confronting the darker parts of herself. The one that does wish she'd overcome them, and does want to rule as a tyrant over all Equestria, and does want to imprison her sister in the moon like she had been for a thousand years because it soothes her unhealthy ego. And it got away from her in a vulnerable state, as she still cannot accept that she's deserving of a second chance, and needs to let go of her guilt. Of course by the end of the episode the Mane Six do convince her of that, and she's able to come to terms with the darkness within her. So to me it seems it really is a case of internal corruption that caused Nightmare Moon, instead of an external force.

[@olaf-chan-728]

This would explain most of villains simply becomes "good" after losing, they lose that darkness they had

[@SparkTheKirin]

Interestingly, I recall theorizing a little bit about this using the fan character Nyx. Presume there are two Tantabus entities, a true Tantabus from the purest wells of magic, which is able to grant power and corruption to those who want it, and Luna's Tantabus, which is just an extension of her own power mimicking the powers of the original Tantabus, since she lost her connection to it but still has guilt. That's about the extent of where my theory goes in regards to canon, but it's neat to see another person pick this parallel up

[@GinjerGacha2010]

Well if we're gonna tie this into G5, here is a theory: What if Opaline created it? It was shown that she was jealous of Celestia and Luna, so what if she created it after seeing how great they are?

[@Cantersoft]

I think she may have actually found a way to harness the dark spirits and run Equestria to the ground. I'm not up-to-date on G5 canon though, so I'd need to look for any clues in G5.

[@thechroniclesofcriss942]

@@Cantersoft I don't think the writers for G5 are that good, but there's always the possibility that Opaline got possessed by one evil spirit that was skilled enough at stealth that it could remain inside the host even as that pony is defeated.

[@TailsClock]

Early season word of god said that Nightmare Moon was not some "super form" or a form of corruption that anypony can get. That it was directly caused by the Pony of Shadows. A concept that eventually did get made into a canon villain, but the connection to Luna was surprisingly never stated. Still I have kept this in mind as being "canon" since it was always the original plan. Like Cadance being a pegasus who then became an Alicorn is never stated in the show canon, but we all know it's canon. The Tantabus being like a shadow of the pony of shadows feels right. However I disagree with the idea that her power fled her before Celestia sent her to the moon. I'd say it stuck with her and protected her and that was WHY she was sent to the moon instead of being reformed into Luna. It was only when she came back and was at risk of being banished again that the dark power left Nightmare Moon to fend for herself. Otherwise, the shadow is in the castle just... doing nothing? for 1000 years? And Celestia never needed to banish her??? Also I think the timeline works perfectly for when Stygian was banished, allowing only a small sliver of the shadow to escape, to then infect Luna and rely on her alicorn strength to become a powerful enough threat. So definitely overall I think you're onto something. Though the tantabus itself is a shadow of a shadow to me. I don't think it's anything to worry about. But had it escaped then I do think it would have become a new pony of shadows. I think that's a sensible assumption to have. Also I wonder if Harmony, the creepy Twilight ghost being would be in the same category as the Pony of Shadows. Energy with a will. But a positive version. I kinda wish the two had met.

[@Video-games-from-Troy]

Maybe it’s some kind of secret garden or some kind of secret magic we we, we don’t know

[@normanclatcher]

An actual curse from a higher power. And no, I don't mean the writer's room.

[@ThatOneTigerdeer]

I luv that there`s still deep-theory content being made for this wonderful lovable franchise~ 💚

[@Alanica47]

Maybe the mysterious patch of black on luna’s flank is part of this shadow creature. In one episode where Luna had to give up her magic along with Celestia and Candace to prevent their magic from being taken by Tyrec, I noticed the moon cutie mark went away, but the dark splotch on Luna’s flank stayed.

[@sasha1mama]

Here's the thing...she says "the evil I caused as Nightmare Moon". Leaving aside the grammatical difficulties of "causing" evil, she...didn't actually do anything. As far as we know, it was literally "Nimmy powers activate! Now fight me, sis." She didn't unleash a genocide or cause a war or singlehandedly plunge Equestria into a new Dark Age, just got in a fistfight with Cel and got whupped just as quick. So her justification for beating herself up about it is...either really cringey over-reaction, or there's a *fug-ton* of bad shit no one ever told us about. And no, I don't believe Twi "destroyed darkness once and for all" (partly because I generally disregard the canonicity of the last 3 seasons for a host of reasons, but I disgress). Evil is not a thing that exists on its own outside of the human experience. It comes from greed, cruelty, and arrogance - things only sapient beings are capable of displaying. As long as people exist in a world, there will always be evil to some degree. And thus, evil is never truly dead or gone. All we can do is watch for it, like a gardener vigilant for weeds, and take action when it manifests once more. As the adage goes, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

[@derpyman3716]

I'd Imagine that this Darkness was something that was created in Grogar's Time, and might even be fragments of his power. And I do think that the dazzlings were one of the tantabus' first hosts when it was still on the weaker side, and that around that time it was desperate for a new host so it influenced the weakest link of the pillars to be ostracized using its negative influence.

[@Stardust_42]

I love seeing new theories and discussions being thrown around but I’d have to strongly disagree. I wanna make an entire video series on equestrian magic but I’ll try to explain how I see it here. What we’re discussing here is what I put under the category of “dark magic”. In nightmare moons case, this dark magic was generated by her negative emotions. Emotions in MLP have strong links to magic, and emotional magic is among the strongest in the show, things like friendship and love are magics strongly connected to emotion too. However dark magic/negative emotions “corrupt” the victim. This happens in real life too, betrayal, loss, guilt, shame, despair, ect. All these emotions can change a person for the worse. (Not always, but they can) They might seclude themselves, lash out in anger or feel as though they’ve been wronged by the world and want to “pay the world back” so to speak. This negative reaction to life’s challenges is personified(? Is that the right word?) as magic in the MLP universe. Since these emotions are often so strong they grant the user incredible power at the cost of their well-being. Nightmare moon felt unappreciated and alone, those feelings got worse and worse until they manifested in a way that consumed her whole life. Stygian was trying to help when he was cast out, he felt so betrayed he saw the champions as the real villains and lashed out. The tantapus is a manifestation Luna punishes herself with because of the guilt she feels for becoming nightmare moon. She thinks it’s for her own good, but really it’s only hurting her. Healing from trauma like that takes time, sometimes even when we are in a safe, stable, and supportive environment we may still feel as though we are unworthy of the love others show to us, and punish ourselves when no one is looking. Guilt is a negative emotion, and thus the tantapus is dark magic. Even though it doesn’t turn her into nightmare moon you can see in the episode that it does have control over Luna and feeds off her guilt to grow stronger and hurt others. There’s more to say about all this dark magic stuff but this comment is too long already.

[@oida10000]

Note that Discord, the Changelings and Starlight were not nessarily affected by the Tantabus. And while the trio used magic to make them stronger they acted on their own accord specially Cosy Glow.

[@user-Flurryshimer]

The tantabus is possible that it stayed in Luna's consciousness and hid away from the elements of harmony and can only be awaken if Luna happens to be overwhelmed by hatred, despair, jealousy . And it is also possible that the dark magic is from negativity well it is already true , considering it takes host by the people who are willing to be evil or is overwhelmed by sadness I guess it would happen. It might also switch to host to host so that it can still have some power when back

[@PurPurAstie]

this theory is really genius, it does seem like canon

[@TheAwes0meo]

Really? I find it laughable that it relies on a dream. How often do you your dreams accurately reflect reality?

[@JviperNVTC]

@@TheAwes0meo But remember that luna stated the tantabus is capable of escaping into the real world

[@12toro]

Very often ​@@TheAwes0meo

[@artc-the-brony1050]

This kinda reminds of an old theory collab from a former Brony Analyst regarding this so-called "evil shadowy spirit parasite", which they nicknamed "The Nightmare Force", discussing how it feeds off negativity and possesses its hosts to create their villain personas. They even theorized the Pony of Shadows could even be the spirit-husk of its original host/victim after they passed away, and it simply 'took over' Stygian instead of being created by him. Though I have this personal headcanon that this "Nightmare Force" is also particularly interested in targeting those close with the Spirit of Harmony's champions, as a way to 'cripple' the champions from the inside: Stygian being the Pillars' unifier & strategist, and Luna being an Element Bearer herself at the time, both having a feeling of underappreciation & resentment. It makes me wonder if it was waiting for either Spike or Starlight to hit their low point, to allow the evil parasite to possess them so they could attack the current era's Element Bearers (the Mane 6). But sadly for it and fortunate for everyone, that fanfic-worthy storyline never got to happen.

[@romanadell2430]

Equestria Girls series also had some transformed villians, such as Sunset Shimmer, Twilight Sparkle and Gloriosa Daisy, but the magic there was created by the elements. So the elements not only aren't strong enough to destroy this Darkness, but may also be the source of it. If we consider Equestria Girls to be canon that is.

[@TheOmegaDMM]

Holy shit! This has me convinced, after all the emotional states through out the series in a way speak of such an entity. This is super deep friend.

[@MafuyuOribe]

This actually makes a lot of sense, I wish they did more with i

[@PeppermintSwirl]

Gonna be honest Luna is a very relatable pony

[@artemsmirnov4264]

This makes a lot of sense and It explains why Luna was grateful rather than bitter after defeat in premiere. My own theory was that the elements messed with her brain erasing memories, emotions and rewiring the whole system.

[@PhilipJFryII]

Sheer brilliance 👏

[@FireSystem9]

you're giving me a new idea for an infection au

[@brambleshadow4]

Fantastic video! Glad you finally got it finished!

[@Cantersoft]

Thanks! Main reason this went so slow is I never had a PC until a few months ago, so editing was really tough.

[@inkblooded1058]

Edit: this theory is mistaken, though my reply corrects the errors. This theory is a bit weakened by the comics, which are considered B-canon. In those, it's revealed that Nightmare Moon was created by creatures known as the Nightmare Forces, who reside on the moon. They are entities that can latch onto a pony's negativity and amplify it, making them feel utter despair. From there, they offer them power and a solution to their problem, which when accepted turns the pony into a Nightmare version of themselves; Nightmare Moon is the most common, but there was also Nightmare Rarity when she was confronted with the fear of being replaced by her friends. The reason for her power in the nightmare against the Mane 6 is obvious; she created the Tantabus to make her a monster far greater than what she truly was, because she judged herself to *be* worse than she was. The Tantabus has unlimited energy in the Dreamscape, since it works entirely off the minds of the dreamers, who - within their own dreamscapes - are unbound by logic or reason. Likewise, when Luna believes herself to be an unstoppable force, ready to destroy everything she knew and loved, this is what she became. However, when the Tantabus fled, it stopped fueling her nightmare. This narrative was repeated in Stygian, though the Pony of Shadows is implied to be a wholly different, far more potent entity than the Nightmare Forces.

[@Cantersoft]

I don't think the Nightmare Forces and the Pony of Shadows are as different as you think they are. Each villain in MLP has a unique strategy; Tirek eats pony magic to build his strength, whereas Chrysalis impersonates other ponies in order to keep them distracted. But both the Nightmare Forces and the Pony of Shadows unite with ponies that have negative potential, and transform them into evil versions of themselves. I doubt this similarity is a coincidence. I think these entities of darkness emerged from the same source.

[@inkblooded1058]

@@Cantersoft So, I stand corrected; re-reading the comic reminded me, Nightmare Moon actually created the Nightmare Forces by cursing the moon creatures, which made dreams. She created them with shadows of her own darkness, so when she fell, they sought to corrupt another pony. In all those parts of their power, I was correct; they turned Rarity into a new Nightmare in a bid to invade Equestria. This is why ponies experienced nightmares at all, in the absence of Luna. But I will say, that raises some interesting questions about the nature of dreams, as the Nightmare Forces were wholly evil and incapable of creating positive dreams, so how did ponies *ever* dream with Luna on the moon? Was Celestia upholding Luna's job even then? And if so, why were ponies so shocked to learn Luna could dream-walk? That is a whole theory in and of itself. Your theory is very interesting and not without it's merits, but it does have holes. The biggest one I can present is that I feel the nature of this method of attack on ponies is less a reflection of one large creature and more in the nature of ponies themselves. Throughout the series, ponies demonstrate a very keen connection to their emotions, greater than that of those around them. In fact, their connection is so powerful that they can manifest these emotions and aspects into literal weapons: the Elements of Harmony. However, this would arguably be a double-edged sword, if we presume emotions are a driving force in ponykind. If positive emotions can alter a pony's body - see the Element Changes from the Tree of Harmony and Twilight gaining her astral mane/tail through a bond with her friends - then negative emotions would certainly be able to do the inverse. And in the nature of Alicorns, we see that immense power turned inwards, warping someone with energy almost equitable to that of a God, forcing a powerful negative change. It's only natural that creatures and entities that would feed off of and hunt ponies would develop in a direction to abuse this weakness, in an effort to undermine the pony's greatest strengths. It is also worth mentioning that, while I was mistaken about the Nightmare Forces, the comics do also have canonical chapters that explain the origins of the other villains: the "Fiendship is Magic" arc of the comics. For instance, Sombra is not a pony at all, but an Umbrum; "shadow and smoke given physical form" and that the Crystal Heart's activation would destroy him. This is soft confirmed by his "shadow form" and his destruction by the heart upon it's activation. Chrysalis was a kinda disappointing reveal; she was born from a cursed lake into which an acorn fell and grew into a carnivorous plant. Starswirl, sensing evil in the plant, did probably the most "Pony" thing I've ever seen and nailed a "Keep Away" sign onto the plant, which caused it to split open and bore Chrysi into the world. Personally, I like the comic's previous implications that Chrysalis was born from a pony being magically robbed of all emotions, which turned her into a void, allowing her to change other ponies as a means of procreation, as well as the usual egg-laying method. Stygian wasn't given one of these stories because we see his flashback; his power came from the Well of Shadows, which arguably is a gateway to Limbo, wherein it and the Pillars were trapped for over a thousand years. It's in the Well that Stygian finds the entity, but if the Tantabus can slip into the minds of ponies, why would it wait for Stygian to wander to some random well? Why not just approach him in his dreams one night? It's because the entity Stygian spoke to was bound in Limbo, trapped away from Equestria entirely. This isn't me shitting on your theory, by the by. I actually love the idea of a grand mastermind behind all these attacks. But the theory does have holes. Any good theory has it's bumps, but those are ironed away through criticism and fact-checking among peers and a supportive and positive community. The comics are a pretty big point of contention in the canon, and I'll admit, if you don't consider them canon, then your argument gains a *lot* more traction. I'd actually argue that the Pony of Shadows itself - as in the entity that possesses Stygian rather than Stygian himself - would make a far better implied mastermind, as we heard the "legend of the Pony of Shadows" in Castlemania, then saw that silhouette of "it" at the end of the episode, implying that it was or is present in the Castle in which the sister's grew up in and Nightmare Moon was eventually created in. I do *love* that you called out that bit in Shadow Play: your line about Twilight recognizing that the Pony of Shadows was immune to reformation, but Stygian was not beyond change was a **wonderful** way to put it. Also, I apologize. I'm a walking repository of useless MLP facts and a massive theory head. If I had the confidence, skill, or equipment to write theories, I'd probably have a whole damn theory channel myself, but I'm lacking in a *lot* of those areas.It's only natural that creatures and entities that would feed off of and hunt ponies would develop in a direction to abuse this weakness, in an effort to undermine the pony's greatest strengths.

[@inkblooded1058]

Also, sorry for this wall. I write *way* too much sometimes.

[@Cantersoft]

@@inkblooded1058 I don't really see how any of the opinions you have expressed here necessarily conflict with anything I said in the video. One of the reasons I still didn't directly identify what I believe is the singular entity that genesised all negativity in Equestria, and instead only described its qualities, is that in my opinion, its substance IS the negative emotions within ponies. I think the collective negativity of many ponies victim to depression, rage, grief, etc. eventually created a force that made everypony else more susceptible to it. I think where you and I might disagree is on how sentient the darkness is. I believe it might have evolved from a formless energy that clouds the hearts of individual ponies, into a somewhat living being that terrorizes all of ponykind-- similarly and conversely to how the Tree of Harmony gained the ability to speak shortly before its death.

[@inkblooded1058]

@@Cantersoft Our points are very similar, but I believe this is less one entity and rather multiple, perhaps not cut from the same cloth but simply borrowing from another on an evolutionary scale. Like how various species all develop the same defense or offense mechanism without having any direct relation: some creatures develop a poisonous coat while others develop forward-facing eyes to better hone in on prey. I believe ponies, being as numerous as they are, have developed many natural predators over the years, all adopting a similar method of attack that counters the pony's own strengths and weaknesses. I don' t know that one entity in particular is the driving force, but more natural selection. I mean, in terms of actual writing, it was probably just decided that "negative emotions will be the enemy to the ponies, who have positive emotions as their strength" and I don't know that it was ever considered more seriously than that. However, narratively speaking, either of our solutions could be correct in this context. Another big counter I would have for this is the Wendigo, which are a force drawn to negativity and strife, and grow stronger in it's presence. I feel like a malevolent being, made of pure negative emotions and growing in power by consuming those emotions may draw the attention of the Wendigo. But that's more-so a theory; we've only ever seen the Wendigo manifest when the entirety of ponykind was thrown into disharmony, and that doesn't quite mesh with one singular, powerful being. Still, one could argue the Wendigo are an unusual outlier, as they have a similar connection to negativity, but seem to lack anything beyond an animal instinct and do not retreat when their power is threatened. In fact, they are very quickly defeated by the Frenemies in Season 9.

[@waynesze8264]

just some insight into had while watching: 1) while it is unclear if luna did grow stronger when transformed into nightmare moon, i think the reason celestia decided to fly away instead of directly battle her sister is probably that she didn’t want to hurt luna and wanted her to give up this dark power in her own, and only when she really couldn’t, she resorted to the elements, as you can see her sort of think about her decision before fully activating the elements. 2) i like the idea of the the whole like this spirit of darkness needs a host in order to create chaos and gain power but maybe the reason why it exists is due to the idea of balance, as the whole show is about harmony and all that, so it would make sense that if there was a main 6 or any kind of hero, there would need an opposite and possibly equal level of power of a villain in order to balance out the positive energy cause if there was no negative energy at all, the world would be boring and nothing would happen, so they need each other to stay alive, so i don’t think either one can be fully destroyed but one could be more powerful at a certain time but they will overall be the same. 3) also what about discord? do u think that he has something to do with this too?

[@marycanary6989]

The tantabus is probably what set up G5 once the main six finally succumb3e to there mortality

[@whenthemoonsets]

the tantabus is a creature that creates nightmares, which luna used to create the same nightmare every day, so when the tantabus left lunas dream, the mane six defeat nightmare moon in the dream as the tantabus was no longer there to upkeep the nightmare.

[@sugasnaps]

This blew my mind. Amazing theory, dude!

[@emawerna]

I think the Tantabus actually came from Queen Chrysalis' throne--through Chrysalis--and ultimately seeped into Luna when Chrysalis was imprisoned beneath Canterlot Castle. When Chrysalis wants to set up a new hive, she goes to the tree of harmony and tries to control it. That gives us a hint that the throne itself pre-existed Chrysalis as a powerful artifact. Stygian and King Sombre could have each separately encountered the artifact in ancient times. Nightmare Moon's escape from the moon we think corresponded to the alignment of stars, but it could have instead corresponded to something happening over at the changeling hive. Perhaps like the zap apples, thorax and his brood could only hatch when certain magical conditions are met. The alignment of stars hatched the brood and increased Chrysalis' throne's power enough to where the throne released Nightmare Moon also. Instead of all the mlp events being tied to Nightmare Moon's escape, they could instead have started when Chrysalis escaped.

[@matthewcartwright9362]

You got a point

[@uncannyeeveestar]

I feel like chrysalis being influenced by this theoretical “bigger bad” is a bit of a stretch. Her power over the changelings is primarily political, and her early motivations are also political in nature. She’s never demonstrated to have any kind of unexplainable power that can be attributed to a tantabus-like entity (her throne can be explained as being just another magical artifact like the many featured throughout the show). She’s just a really selfish person who desires power above all else

[@user-vj4zy2ro3q]

Would be cool if actual reason for Twilight to artificially bind existence/availability of magic to Harmony is because she understand that she can't defeat the Spirit of Evil in fair game, so she decided to change the rules of the game, to starve it out. But the Spirit, infinitely more older and probably more wise, predicted that move and activated it plan B (chain of events that lead to conflict between ponies even without direct orchestration from the Spirit) and retreat in to pocket dimension or hibernated to wait for magic to evently return and start a round 2.

[@thechroniclesofcriss942]

those are very subtle details. good work.

[@akiraheike]

Spoiler for the MLP comics You are actually more right than you think about an evil entity. In the comic issues, which are considered canon, there is an arc called NIghtmare Rarity and in that, at the beggining, the mane six were having nightmares and after a bad one for rarity she gets taken over by what Luna describes as NIghtmare Forces, that were created by Nighmare Moon cuz she thought that she could show other ponies how special she was by making them fear her. The forces got enough energy from the more moon cicles were completed to start acting. they seem to also act like Tantabus as in they grow more powerful with bad emotions, like guilty or fear. The Tantabus might be exactly that or even just a fragment of the forces.

[@Cantersoft]

Yeah, I do think they are from the same source. They might all actually be linked to the umbrum, which in another comic are depicted as King Sombra's species. "Umbrum" means "shadow" in Latin.

[@crys_cornflakez]

I think more attention needs to be paid to Nightmare moon’s confidence being in a dream. Specifically a nightmare. It was a disturbing dream where Luna relived her regrets and suffered a reality where goodness never won. It’s just a dream not the Tantabus’ real power

[@Taios87entertainment]

you know, the Tantabus kinda reminds me of the darknesses in kingdom hearts work. In the master of masters case, when his keyblade war happened, they got rid of their forms to win over against light. But without a form, they're relatively weak, so they attempt to hide in the hearts of other people. Just like what Vanitas did with Ventus before xehanort extracted him.

[@sokradnxuretsejls4243]

The tantabus is a very unique being but that darkness is a lot more horrifying to say the least

[@Saria-io5fx]

Ephesians 6:12, For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

[@Cantersoft]

Basically.

[@normanclatcher]

Spiritual warfare. I know the way.

[@justchillin06]

5:47 bro those wings 😭

[@thatguyonyoutube2063]

My JJK fan ass cannot watch this video without the brainworms activating.

[@Driyga]

heyyy new to your channel and this was an amazing video! below are all the iffy bits that i never fully managed to connect together but your video does that perfectly! hope to see more from you (with some minor modifications) hope you all have a great day! :) Funnily enough, i've had a theory about this exact for years - the main problem came with Stygian and the pony of shadows. We know that Luna and celestia were mentored by Starswirl, but the time implementation of exactly when is quite confusing. I believe it might be some time in between their self banishment to limbo and Stygian bringing the Pillars together. Not sure what exactly went on between those times but i believe that the pony of shadows is the ancient version of whatever corrupted Luna (will touch on his later) and managed to leech into Luna. The dark forces in which corrupted both Luna and Stygian were of jealousy/envy. you are correct when you say "magic cannot just pop into existence" and i believe that in the MLP universe, emotions are a source of power themselves (explaining how twilight went from a bookworm to the ruler of equestria). this whole theory branches off into multip seperate ones so hang with me for a second. The jealosy in Luna fueled the tantibus and like a parasite, it leeched off this power to grow more and more powerful. going by this logic, Nightmare moon may have had the power of TWO alicorns, Luna herself and the parasite, possibly explaining the sudden power fluctuation. After Nightmare Moon's return, i think Luna hung on to a part of the parasite, the Tantibus, to punish herself for her misdeeds. instead of feeding off of evy, the tantibus evolved to feed off of her grief and regret. I also believe that the tantibus has been causing nightmares, and granted Luna the ability to walk dreams, meaning more power and explaining the sudden change in her physical form from episode two and the next time we see her. I believe that Luna's dream walking abilities are tied to her new form, since it allows her to have connections with ponies in their dreams (and Luna's main reason for despising her sister was because of the inactivity during her night), so i don't think it's very likely that she had this power prior to her reformation. going back to the tantibus, we can see that the tantibus takes a final form eerily similar to the pony of shadows. The tantibus could NOT have originally transformed she created it herself, as you said. and as twilight says, powerful magic leaves traces behind so i think luna scraped together those "traces" into the tantibus. think of the tantibus/corruption like a battery. it stores negative energy instead of giving it off, whihc might result in a sudden power boost from said stored energy. wer of two alicorns. this was all over te place but it's as short as i can make it without posting the full theory (far too long). and the element's of harmony are clearly no match for the power of corrupted forces + the power of two alicorns (this whose yapfest also ties in with another theory that luna rules the multiverse and the dreams are every wifferent universe and MLP:FIM takes place in celestia's dream but thats a heavily unfinished theory which mostly stems on the fact that the tantibus looks like a fragment of space with is ANOTHER theory... wow...) if ya read all that, dang you have dedication

[@TheLegitAlpha]

For some reason, the idea of evil spirits made entirely of negative emotion sounds an awful lot like dark matter from the Kirby franchise.

[@randomdude-qn3vm]

Anyone notice that daybreaker has a spot similar to luna's extra patch. However, it's orange Wouldn't that mean If has spot= Corrupt form?

[@mercedesswan7205]

Very good theory! Definitely worth thinking on more!

[@jakedragon5063]

I think Luna just released her power, Celestia could have done the same and become Daybreaker without any external force.

[@AlejandroGonzalez-ej4lp]

One of the few channels that can make theory videos without being Cringe

[@jls5171]

In gen 1, Tirek had access to the Rainbow of Shadows, which was the direct opposite of the Rainbow of Light, of the ponies. And Catrina, a cat-folk, got ahold of a little bit of magic that suddenly turned her from kind and loving, to cruel, obsessive, and a slave driver. Not to mention in "Bright Lights," ponies get their shadows stolen to feed a rock star's "dark master."

[@ramonsanchez6903]

Great video Cantersoft i enjoyed

[@CrazyCatGacha]

I love this theory! I do not care if it is a reach, I love it!!

[@ZL33PY]

Honestly I love this theory!

[@user-ul3ik7ti5e]

I love the cute Luna plush

[@markreid1656]

king sombra is a shadow pony

[@Chronamut]

the brighter the lighthouse the darker the shadow it casts

[@olived9560]

oo this is really interesting!

[@projectamixime]

My headcanon of what is the source of all evil in equestria and lands beyond it is my oc Mango Rose

[@animelilico4664]

I would say it works in our world as “aura”

[@Trixie_Lavender]

I love this. Headcanon accepted!

[@voriaeveningflame]

Considering that the second instance was a dream, the powers of the elements could have been warped and not representative of their true power in the waking world

[@MajorLeagueGamingTrap]

I’d like to believe that the darkness is G4’s version of Erebus

[@purehyper124]

Luna case for becoming nightmare moon is in the comics 5-8.

[@user-rx6sv2ey4p]

Omg thank you soo much for this

[@FirestormDDash]

As for the G5-4 thing. The hologram from movie/show and comics has things tying the shows together in a timeline. So canon/non-canon could still be used. Though my g5 intrested is glossing over posts at best.

[@Bxxx87]

Having a crisis over here because I noticed something. The “tantabus” is created in the very very beginning of it all. When the show became popular. The “tantabus” isn’t the enemy. It’s the writers of the show trying to continue to have conflict to make it interesting so the show doesn’t die out. With friendship and harmony, there is no interesting story. The panic in the end as the writers, or tantabus, is thrown out a portal and banished isn’t because it is dying, but because the universe it created will die with it.

[@BlankZone34]

The g5 is from split timeline which i can proof it. 1 twilight is young in the hologram and the flashback outline of her which indicates that this happend when she is still young. 2 spike redesign don't make sense, first of all the g4 spike becomes buff, i know redesign is a thing in shows, but spike should have still the buff body he has because this is his adult form so its permanent for him, his long slider form is not g4 spike form, the buff spike is adult form, this indicates that it is a spilt timeline, also if you notice spike becomes the king of dragon because they follow spike order in the flashback with any question from them this indicates spike is there king , in the event of dragons rather spike declined the offer to become king he accept it and allied himself to the pony. 3 we do see human device like smartphones, so indicates that human vists the pony world and give the knowledged to create this device, even sunset uses a magic book to commucate with twilight, and nope human from the shows equstria girls never give the knowledge on them, and you don't see also a smart ponies who can create machines only twilight can do it. 4 the only allied creature is the dragon no one else. So conlusion is the split timeline of g4 takes place after the event when the dragon becomes the ponies allied and friend, after that evil pony skip and trys to attack the ponies because this split timeline is twiglight and her friends is weak compared to the main timeline g4, the only way she can stop the evil pony is to seal the magic until the day it will be used again by the ponies, so this explain why spike adult form is slinder dragon because battling all the evil magic makes his body buff, and why twilight is young in the flashback, and also the only friend/allied mention is the dragon somewhat it shows that spike is also the leader of the dragons is clearfy that spike accept the to become the king of dragons after getting the staff, this clear explain this g5 is a split timeline.

[@Cantersoft]

I think this is true, but I didn't watch G5 so I'm not sure about something. Is Opaline the pony who stole the magic, or was it Discord, or somepony else?

[@BlankZone34]

@@Cantersoft she wants the magic and rule the pony she is pony of discord

[@animelilico4664]

Love the idea

[@unbrokenbrony5618]

I'd be fine if G5 wasn't canon either lol

[@dreamingwildlycovers3544]

Epic video!!!!!!! Genius theory!

[@dragonflyer9964]

I love this theory

[@WorldWeave]

Very interesting theory, but I’d argue the reason the elements didn’t work in the dream is because…it’s a dream…but then again, it’s possible that the elements couldn’t redeem Luna the first time even at full power, so banished her instead….I don’t know if the elements have set rules for what they do when used, or if what they do is determined by the pony(s) using them

[@kotonemondwatchter7908]

I really like this theory ! Though, it gives me a subsequent theory about Stygian and the Pony of Shadows that can "catch" some of the inconsistencies of the Pillars story. What if Stygian was partially conscious of the shadows and even his own contamination by the Tantabus? A thing that always bothered me with the pillars story is their artifacts. Stygian tried to steal them to "copy their power" but, by themselves, most of them are useless. Little reminder of them : -Starswirl's Book : probably contains a lot of spells but Stygian is probably too weak to use them -Rockhoof's Shovel : litterally a regular shovel, what makes it special is than Rockhoof used it. It doesn't give strength or anything by itself. We even see it break like a regular shovel (fight against Tirek) -Mistmane's Flower : a flower in a pot with an extreme longevity (may not have been known at the time) -Flash's Shield : Probably unbreakable -Somnambula's blindfold : a regular cloth -Meadowbrook's mask : a medicine mask to avoid contamination. May or may not be enchanted? What give them their importance is the ponies linked to them. Stygian is a supposed strategist, if I can see that with my dumb brain who would lose at chess against a eight years old, he can figure it out. With your theory though, it makes sense if we consider than Stygian got conscious of the Tantabus, maybe after being contamined? But I think the most probable theory would be simply than he did like you did in the video, he made a conjecture due to the different ennemies they saw. With a consciousness of the Tantabus and witnessing the rainbow-lazer effect (with the corrupted always getting banished afterward since it is Starswirl's solution to problems), he may have thought of making a copy of the artifacts to try and either link himself to those to serve as "replacement" when someone is indisposed (be it by injury, illness or other) or understand how they work to reproduce the effect. If we consider than he may have been conscious of being corrupted, it may explain even why he talked to no one about it, it is highly probable than Starswirl would have linked corrupted to being deeply evil. And once he got caught, Stygian finally got the same consequences he thought he would have if he talked to them beforehand. After being banished, from there to going to the well of shadows, it is a pretty logical leap to make. It is a place with lots of ancient sculptures, some representing the Pony of Shadows. So thinking there may be information he may use to help himself seems logical. Buuuut it is like throwing yourself in a pool to figure out why you have wet hair. He would recieved a large amount of shadows drawing out his anger, resentment and other feelings. Making the shadows stronger and I think at this point, he may have begun to run to his friends for help before it became revenge. Why? Because the smart move would have been to become the shadow BEFORE attacking, while he in fact arrived then immediatly transformed. (Imagine how dumb it would have been if they just showed a beam at him before he finished x'DD) It could also explain why Stygian was "in" the shadow instead of "changed" by it. Even if he failed to resist it, being conscious than the thoughts weren't him may have been enough to protect his integrity (either that or there was so much shadow pumped in him than it couldn't fit inside). It doesn't break all the problems of the pillars story (I'm feeling crazy about why the artifacts were where they were. It makes no sense ! They can't have moved from Ponhedge by themselves but who could have known where to put ALL the artifacts EXCEPT Starswirl's? Even if we consider a spell on them to send them back it makes no sense 'cause why would Starswirl's get lost? I have so many theories on that and so many where I'm like "but it doesn't work", I'm close to headcanoning either "Luna lost Starswirl's journal" or "Discord did it" just to stop thinking about it)

[@gigarmon]

this is some kingdom hearts level of darkness 😅

[@normanclatcher]

Darkness within darkness... This is... _advanced_ darkness...

[@princeedmirovillar8044]

I definitely need to make a lore about this

[@liiwiswuwa]

this could make sense in g5, since all magic got trapped, because there are such evil and powerful forces that this was the only choice

[@Nothin2seehere-e4z]

Now I’m remind of ephesians 6:12.

[@rosashell4]

I think that it had to have survived if it is the reason for conflict to occur in Equestria, since in G5 that Alicorn is all evil and stuff, so if it survived, even just a sliver of it, then we will probably see it come back.

[@empireofengland6039]

I don't think authors realized what they did in this cartoon. So go doesn't follow the logic.

[@JadenYukifan28]

Cozy Glow was only a Pegasus, she didn't have "real magic" until she gained it from the Bell that the trio stole, though I guess she could be considered being manipulated by the same entity that corrupted every other villain in the series.

[@Cantersoft]

Of course. I don't really think she was corrupted by the dark magic-- I was more pointing out that she might never have had a chance to become a villain if the other villains didn't rise to power first, ultimately as a result of the dark magic... i.e., if Luna never became Nightmare Moon, she wouldn't have released the dark magic that Tirek might have harnessed in order to escape... and thus he wouldn't have given Cozy Glow the advice she needed to nearly topple Equestria. It's speculation though.

[@JadenYukifan28]

@@Cantersoft I agree, I mean in her mindset, she claimed "friendship is power", meaning that the more friends she has, the more "power" she'll have. Though, how she tricked Starlight Glimmer follow her into the depths of the School was a feet of its own....

[@Zerathina]

Uh… not even… Luna created the Tantabus AFTER Twilight used the elements to rid her of Nightmare Moon. At that time, the Tantabus had just enough power to torment only Luna, keeping it confined to herself. That changed, however, when Luna realized and began to understand that she had friends and reasons to protect people, allowing the Tantabus to feed on more than just her fear of Nightmare Moon, but also her fears of hurting those she cared for, allowing it to grow more powerful. As that particular episode goes on, the more who get involved, the more power it gains- this means that the Tantabus was only capable of leaving dreams well after the defeat of Sombra, Chrysalis, Nightmare Moon, etc. Now if we look at her magic leaving her, as we saw in season 4, it NEEDS somewhere to go, like how Celestia, Luna, and Cadence put their magic into Twilight, Nightmare Moon’s dark magic would require a vessel to inhabit, hence why the Tantabus only lived in a dream, technically a part of Luna until it grew strong enough to not need her. The Pony of Shadows would be a good candidate for Nightmare Moon’s dark magic, except he was already banished to Limbo long before she existed, which rules that out entirely. Your thoughts and theories are intriguing but you seemed to ignore the timeline and string of which events happened- yes Twilight defeated the Pony of Shadows AFTER Nightmare Moon, but he also existed before Nightmare Moon did and was banished before too- so that would’ve been impossible. Sombra was also banished before Nightmare Moon, we don’t know how long Chrysalis existed but she was around no doubt while Nightmare Moon was in the moon- Tirek was in Tartarus for a hell of a long time so that rules him out too, so your theories are basically dead before they even took a breath.

[@Bird-wz7nx]

I'm thinking much on the same lines, but I'd go even bigger picture here. Full spectrum Pony magic itself- (AKA Alicorn Magic) is inherently corruptive! Remember that weird line Zecora drops about the potion in Princess Twilight Sparkle? About how it needed Alicorn magic, and then Twilight uses goes all Sombra on the thing? I don't think that was an error. I think it was an idea they could only hint at because [HASBRO], but thry spent the whole series operating under the premise that absolute (Alicorn) power corrupts, and only the power of Harmony can counter this inherent evil. (And with the wonders of ponies and friendship and rainbows, you get highly marketable angel powers!) Your theory starts with the Tantabus, but IMO its just an innate flaw of any one pony or pony-adjacent soul gets too much power with diverse tribe types. The earliest example chronologically is probably the Windigoes- the pony magic came together in their death, during famine and war. That covetous hatred towards each tribe and... even maybe possibly implied cannibalism (because of what IRL Windigoes are) suggests that some real black magic went down. Even a little soul-eating would be enough to unite the tribal magic into black alicorn essence. The Pony of Shadows comes Before Nightmare Moon chronologically, but it comes from when Stygian combined the power from all three pony tribes. This is why I mentioned "full spectrum" magic here, as the rainbow of the elements are shown to be able to generate Alicorns. Luna inherently has the power of the three tribes, so she can create her own Dark Alicorn power. (And as an aside, when Luna and Celestia trade cutie marks and Celestia meets Daybreaker, she isn't at all shocked or surprised- she's immediately defensive, insisting that she will never become her. Go back and watch that scene- IMO it definitely feels like Tia has seriously thought about her own fall, make of it what you will) Where it gets interesting is with Sombra, as he's a total anomoly- cutie markless, weilding dark alicorn magic, but with an apparent tie to shadow-tainted ponies like Shadow Stygian and Nightmare Moon. He also seems to have a resemblance to the Alicorn Amulet. We will never know his deal, as the content of his comic has always been B canon, (where its canon until something inthe core media supercedes it) and that wound up happening. But the relationship to Alicorn magic and darkness itself still stands, as his aesthetic itself is tied to that critical line in Princess Twilight Sparkle. Equestria Girls hosts two interesting points, as we see two examples of girls without Harmony tapping into Full Spectrum Pony Magic via the Elements and immediately turning into demons, no tantabus involved. When Starlight gets the magic of Friendship? She gets a heavily implied human analog to an alicorn form, even though she doesn't get proper pony wings. SciTwi also doesn't get her pony counterpart's alicorn wings. As for the other magic eaters, well, we can't really know because we don't have any non evil ones. (Except Scitwi, who did go she-demon, but she's pony-adjacent) It is implied by Cozy's Alicorn form and the background exposition that Grogar's bell had pony magic in it, though.

[@danielcurren2119]

I always thought that it was strong negative emotions that created the pony of shadows and nightmare moon. Luna STRONGLY felt like she was in her sister's shadow, that no one loved her or her efforts at night. I think that it's not that she gained new powers, but that her current powers became corrupted and twisted by this negative perception she saw herself as, much like her form, formed by the jealousy she harbored. Nightmare Moon is like the monster Luna saw herself as. The pony of shadows was created similarly, stygian was hurt by the rejection of the very heroes he helped and looked heavily up to. This deep pain manifested into the shadows that became an identity of itself

[@Cantersoft]

Do you really think little Stygian has the power in him to face the mane 6 and the pillar 6, Starlight, and Sunburst simultaneously? Yes, the darkness within him turned him evil, but according to Celestia in the S4 finale, magic follows the law of conservation of energy. The Pony of Shadows was said to draw power from dark places in order to grow in magical strength.

[@user-es5ov6rd3m]

An evil spirt that gets stronger through bad feelings isn’t fake its the demon, I mean thats literally what the demon is, an evil spirt seeking that bad stuff

[@OriginalMariAnnaWolf]

Evil spirits have a form n name. Their each own spirit after all, but no one cares, so Ima just get on what I think. It reminds me of some mlp grimdarks. For example, Tirek grimdark au. Twi heared a voice n gave herself up, trapped n helpless The evil power took control n destroyed Tirek n do whatever wanted. He took over as a ruler, n announced his name. Although I can't remember what it was 😅 For King Sombra tho.. He actually seem to be a unicorn pony (alicorn that put his power into that grey n red necklace) as he seem happy to finally have his material form than a mist cloud thing. I can't remember, but I think the sisters got him that way n trapped him in the ice like that🤔 I think we will see in G5 any dark mist cloud thing to confirm. For now I think the darkness has been banished Irl u say? There are ppl that evil spirits take over n the person black out. They will wake up n be like wtf happened n stuff. I don't mean sleep walking.. but awake n then poof! Although irl u wouldn't do friendship n just deny the energetic being's. *deep sigh* again.. no one cares.. 🙃😓

[@normanclatcher]

I am listening.

[@OriginalMariAnnaWolf]

@normanclatcher really? U would listen more of the supernatural stuff? 😯 Is there any part ur most interested?😅

[@normanclatcher]

@@OriginalMariAnnaWolf I believe the Bible is fundamentally correct when it comes to describing things like unclean spirits and possessions and the like. These things haven't disappeared; we just refer to them by other names (mental health conditions) or understand them through other, non-occultic lenses. Like cartoons or video games. Basic point is, since they were real then, it makes sense that they'd be real now, too, right? They don't age or die like we do.

[@OriginalMariAnnaWolf]

@normanclatcher Oh ur past me when didn't know the lies.. u know they killed other religions like Norse? U know they only want man in power n women powerless? Ah n for so called "demons" their nothing but other religions deities n other being's. The so called "demons" are also goetia spirit's. Of those stupid stories of "demons" n humans strong belief we created those "demons" as egregores. Also "demons" were originally called daemons that are something else. The bible also was changed so many times just to brainwash u to follow the blinded faith of others. I actually plan to find real bible n learn the language n translate truthfully unlike others. Anyway.. history has so much crimes that ppl don't bother to research. Ig Ik y now so called "father" that put spearm in the b to make me is sexist af. That's y I wanna do everything on my own show man we ain't just barbie dolls to have xxx with.. u know St Patrick was Pagan? Did u heared of bad Catholic n Christian like those horrible KKK? How about the prist that raped? Of course not.. u all religions want nothing but to see good in ur own, but bad in others. Just like "father" saying no one be ever happy but his own religion, when I saw actually happy ppl that weren't of the religion. BTW I'm f offended coz I was BORN WITH THE F MENTAL DISORDERS N SO WAS SO CALLED "SISTER" BUT HE PROTECTS HER THAT COZ SHE DESABLED SHE ACTS LIKE A FU- "DEMON" IF NOT HELD WILL KILL SOMEONE N SHE KEEP HURTING HERSELF WHEN HE IGNORES MY MENTAL DISABILITIES SAYING IM BLAMING TOO MUCH ON MY AUTISM N SH- WHEN I WAS DOING RESERCH ON IT N HOW THE F DO I ACT NORMAL FOR ONCE.... Hazbin Hotel song with Charlie n that angel girl was right u know? U do precive urself as perfect.. living with "father" I can tell.. he is so sinful denying it.. proud like a path saying his a Saint, he knows all but he dont, he keep lying! I'm just saying FACTS only.. I RESEARCH my ass till I can't no more so tired going through the night. I want only facts so I research all sides of the subject. All the opinions n like a detective 🕵️‍♀️ will piece the puzzle together. U all are way too caught up in urself. Even "father" wouldn't give to homeless £50! Non of u would just like that when begging for baby milk n stuff! Yeah I had horrible experience with so called "family" neglect, n yeah maybe I getting bit my anger issues out here coz I can't anyhow else, but I still stay to facts. The history. P.s. followers of the whatever region is called a CULT coz worshipping the whatever deity or deities or whatever.. cult is cult.. even GTLive comfirmed the meaning. He loves to research just as I do lol. Telling how bs scams are in the society like makeup or shops, face cleanse, soap, detergent, ect.. Anyway not my bizz to be like those damn Christian knocking telling everyone to join them if not burn in hell sh-.... hate those.. just let ppl be who they wanna be! Idfc! Y should u care what I belive in? Love is love. Religions are there, but we keep on living our own lives. There's even a phrase! If everyone would be same the damn society humanity be f boring.. Tho.. I do believe all religions make egregores n worlds just of the thought. We are energy, n emotions are powerful energy. Just like child's Tulpa. I belive in science of quantum physics. The energy stuff. The balance. There are good ppl n bad that they haunt ppl in their afterlife.. those ppl u call "demons" Only humans are capable of such evil.. a revenge, jealousity,n other unfinished business. Ooorrrr of pure fun to torment ppl.. f those.. good this lady spirit ain't like that. Saw her once when we moved here.. no sound even tho the floor is squeaky.. then just poof! Disappeared.. Now "father" say only saints can see spirit's.. what a bs.. atheist guy at that time he saw her too! I didn't even told him.. tho.. he can see all the time all types of being's! For the "demon" talk better go to him then I realised.. What Ik is just that ppl wanna live n are mad so they try get the energy n get ppl possessed. There's couple reasons can't remember rest tho. I mean.. If I can unfinished bizz I would.. thats what ppl do. Do u know what is a lie too? Soul deal sh- there is already so many spirit's! Y do u think they want more?! Anyway.. I'm just rambling so.. take it or leave it Idfc. I just tell facts n put my neglect rage here.. have. A good one.

[@Livinlikeaclown]

I love this theory alot! And wetiher people think G5 cannon to G4 or not, I feel like this totally could be a really interesting story line to explain the destruction of a unified equestria (though I'm sure the show runners/writters would never explore something that makes THAT much sense)

[@Cantersoft]

The G5 writers mainly just wanted to tie in their story to the same universe, but they didn't do much to connect the state of Equestria in their universe to a consequence of anything that happened in G4. I kinda think the G4 writers did actually prepare for it a bit though! Not that they knew specifically what G5 would look like.

[@lilythearcticfox]

So it's kind of like the sirens/dazzlings? (Or the Glitter Force villains, but that's not MLP) It feeds off the negative energy, creates more, rinse and repeat. Except that the sirens could be defeated with the elements of harmony, and whatever the heck Sunset Shimmer represents. (It's very clearly implied she represents a Phoenix, which is symbolic of redemption, (and near synonyms,) leadership (she is the leader of the human 7,) hope, cycles, and eternity. Redemption is most likely, despite her having one of the worst redemption arcs. Empathy is also likely, it doesn't match her being a phoenix, though. The staff has said both. Possible retcon?) Also wait... I wonder, would Discord be able to sense it? He can sense a lot of things, I think... But this? Also it's kind of funny how many characters feed off of negative energy, and Chrysalis is over here like "yummy love." Satan confirmed is My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic??????

[@josegonzalez-ii3vt]

If your thesis is true (big if) them twilight might had accidentally defeated the tantabruh when she decided to stone the legion of doom instead of banishing them. The evil spirit is alive, but contained