Lutheran Outliers

[@historyhooligan2893]

I’m so happy I found your page. I’ve always been a “denominational nerd” and it’s rare to find other people with this fascination. Even getting into minute details like Apostolic Lutheran women not wearing makeup.

[@ReadyToHarvest]

Great Caleb, so glad you found the channel!

[@metapolitikgedanken612]

I think going into the details of what denominations believe and practice is necessary. But 'fascination' would be an overstatement. I like Josh works, since it is very concise and understandable. It can come in helpful, when dealing with members of those denominations. But I noticed that what's put on paper and what people actually say and practice is often quite different.

[@oogaleeboogalee6522]

Could you do a video on Ukrainian Lutherans who use Orthodox liturgy? (as well as other Protestants who do)

[@henricusrealms8411]

The Ukrainian Lutherans are in fellowship with (and were a mission plant) of the Evangelical Lutheran Synod (ELS), who are also in fellowship with WELS. They just took the Eastern Rite liturgy (Liturgy of St. John Chysostom) and removed the parts that are problematic with us Lutherans and added Western hymnody to replace all the ".... in the 8th Tone," which is in effect Eastern Rite hymnody.

[@bandygamy5898]

In Church of Sweden (despite liberal mainline leadership) basically all versions coexist: High Church traditionalists with almost TLM, Lutherans Catholics, Confessional rebels against the leadership, Charismatic Lutherans, universal salvation believer, Pietists, Laestadians, moderate conservatives, all kinds of radical liberal leftist positions, low Church conservatives, mystics, monastic orders since 1990s and so.. It's always been like that, just different factions have been in Charge.

[@friedsalmons8377]

That is why I feel at home in our Church, I can be Evangelical-Catholic/High Church Lutheran while others can worship in another way and stay in the same Church. This gives me the opportunity to follow my girlfriend to more contemporary and different types of worship I’m used to without us having having to belong to different denominations or even different congregations within our Church. My girlfriend is running for POSK in the Sunday elections. I dream about a future without dirty politics, politics is about perception and not truth and that’s what they bring into our Church in my opinion.

[@konkordiekyrkan]

@RaymondSaint Church of Sweden from the beginning consisted of all Swedes (State Church System). Still 50-60 percent are members. No faith is required for membership. So every congregation consists of hundreds or thousands of people who don’t believe or go to church.

[@konkordiekyrkan]

@RaymondSaint All new pastors must accept women’s ordination. Some older clergy may still be opposed (conservative). It is not possible to be confessional within Church of Sweden.

[@run4cmt]

As a LCMS member I really enjoyed hearing about other Lutheran churches.

[@MrAlienAssassin]

Would be interesting to hear about Charismatic Catholics

[@DiamondKingStudios]

I think a relative of mine knew one who was from Belguim or the Netherlands when I was growing up. Modest house size; fair number of children. Some of the religious traditions I heard about from the relative about said Charismatic friend seemed a little foreign to me as a typical run-of-the-mill Catholic, but not totally, since I once spent a summer in a Pentecostal church camp.

[@Bob.W.]

Father Spyridon, Greek Orthidox, just roasted charismatics and pentacostals in a video yesterday. It was pretty brutal.

[@MrAlienAssassin]

​@@Bob.W. Interesting video, I do think there is a spectrum between very traditional non charismatic liturgy, and the crazy glossolalia rolling around on the ground gobbledygook. Possible not all self described charismatics are heretics but I am not too familiar

[@TheChristianNomad]

He has one that discusses it. Search his channel for "Charismatic And Catholic?"

[@MrAlienAssassin]

@@TheChristianNomad Not seeing it on this channel

[@monicawilson896]

Would you please do a video directly comparing freewill baptists to independent baptists? Thank you for your work. Your approach is very helpful.

[@TurtleMarcus]

The Laestadian (Apostolic Lutheran) Church started as a revival by Swedish pastor Lars Levi Læstadius in the 1800's, among the indigenous Sami people in Northerns Scandinavia. This explains their teetotalism, as alcholism was a great problem among the Sami at that time, and Læstadius championed teetotalism. It is interesting to see that the Laestadian movement exists in America. At least here in Scandinavia, most people think of the Laestadians as geographically limited to Far North and/or the Sami people, if they even know about Laestadians at all.

[@VTPfirewolf1994]

I can't believe there's a Lutheran denomination that says you cant have alcohol lol! At my church (ELCA), our pastor buys a keg for both Reformation Sunday and Pentecost. I think maybe half of my congregation has the same shirt that says "beer: proof that God loves us." Funny how different we can be!

[@a.zhakoon]

Leastadians have roots in Revival among Saami people. Like many people who lives in Northern areas of Eurasia and America they have big problems with alcohol in physiological level.

[@silversurfer2703]

Hmmm I think I would like to visit your church. 😏

[@lundinkrazy]

ELCA is hardly Christian my guy

[@Luredreier]

A lot of christians here in Norway are sceptical towards alcohol. Few outright bans it, but moderation is considered very important. And a pastor buying a keg isn't really something you'd see here.

[@MortenBendiksen]

My Church of Norway priest makes liquors of all kinds and has no aversion to jolly times and drinking. He grew up in a pietistic community, so does not find that a path that leads anywhere good. There is a pietist streak in some Norwegian rural communities, I know. But it's absolutely not universal. Travel around and you'll find all kinds of people in different places.

[@HukiTohunga]

Augustana Lutherans, separated from LCMS and believe that Lutherans took things to far from Luther's Original goal (reform the Church not separate from it) and now seek reunification with the Roman Catholic Church

[@bandygamy5898]

Based

[@ericlefevre7741]

Augustana Lutherans basically disolved in the early 2010s when the founder of the movement joined the catholic church as a layman.

[@HukiTohunga]

@@ericlefevre7741 woah! I didn't realize that! I guess it kinda makes sense, because their goal was to join the Roman Catholic Church. I suppose they did do it, as I have read a good many of their members have. They just did it individually and not officially as a denomination. It would still be cool if he could do a video on them! Thanks for this info!

[@aaronjohn8091]

Except Luther didn’t separate from the Roman church. The Roman church excommunicated him, and then put a price on his head. It’s a big difference.

[@soundimpact4633]

What Luther started was good in a breakaway from the Babylonian Catholic pagan religion who are worshiping semiramis Nimrod and tammuz... The Sun. The goddess. Lucifer. But most don't know it. God will sort all this out. But then he went too far and ignored James and doesn't believe that faith without works is dead. I'm 63 and I've loved Luther my whole life, but I'm just starting to see clearly the fine lines and the errors.

[@teresamcmurrin8672]

I've never quite understood the arguement, "We believe in the KJV because it is the only one that conforms to the doctrines we developed from reading the KJV". Seems kinda sorta circular to me...

[@GilmerJohn]

The practical reason for "following" the KJV is that it's been analyzed and commended up for well over 400 years. If someone has picked a bone with the KJV, the whole thing is out there. With a "modern" translation, you don't have a history of criticism. It goes without saying that the KJV sounds more "Holly."

[@Garyguygax]

It isn’t. The doctrines are historical as well as based on the bible.

[@AlanderKohenel]

Same goes with Sola Scriptura.

[@Garyguygax]

@@AlanderKohenel And Sola Popa to coin a new term.

[@AlanderKohenel]

@@Garyguygax yes.

[@RhenishHelm]

Are you going to make videos about the other statements at the beginning, and the denominations that take exception to them? I'd be very interested in a video about the Pentecostals that don't hold to speaking in tongues.

[@brileywells1628]

You should do a video on Mormon outliers (Moorsites, FLDS, Community of Christ) or Calvinistic Methodists.

[@joshuakrenz3347]

Just watched this video which opened my eyes to more Lutherans than I thought, and coming from and ELCA pastor. I realize this video is 2 years old now but I hope you can see this request: a video on North American Lutheran Church (NALC).

[@figmasternutter6364]

Never knew there was a whole universalist Lutheran denomination, wish there was one near me so I could learn more!

[@chemnitzfan654]

As a member of the WELS I'd say the ELCA is an outlier from the Lutheran confessions even though they are the biggest denomination in the US. 😢😂

[@cthrugrl]

Cope

[@chemnitzfan654]

@@cthrugrl no u, heretic.

[@Edward-tp5nc]

They aren’t Lutheran anymore.

[@Sebman1113]

that's a WELS cope

[@gabriellegeorge2648]

7:38 What is the reason for prohibiting competitive sports?

[@ianpardue2615]

Being unequally yoked, and don't follow the way of unbelievers (II Corinthians 6, starting at verse 14 to the rest of the chapter). That is what the UPCI, my family's church, used to ban all secular activities, including games, sports, and etc

[@connorhall5316]

Growing up in this religion, the argument against competitive sports is that you are exposed to “worldly” influences around you. Basically, the reasoning was that you would be around people that aren’t from church that could tempt you into activities such as drinking or listening to worldly music

[@basedsmoke591]

it brings too much glory to the individual. if you look at athletes today, many are almost worshipped...

[@resistivpeach]

I grew up in this “church.” basically the reasons for anything are irrelevant because it’s a cult and they don’t want you to leave so they instill this fear in you. oh, and they also believe they are, through them, the only way into heaven. blasphemous if you ask me. i don’t have much good to say about them but I try not to be too bitter.

[@Nikwunu]

​​@@connorhall5316nope. that's not what's taught. the reason why competitive sports are a sin is because they take glory from god. people worship competitive sportsmen and they aren't allowed to talk about jesus usually (exceptions exist but the paris olympics really enforced this rule). that's not to say christians shouldn't play casual sports with eachother or unbelievers. and it's important to confess faith when pressured to drink or dance.

[@theconsistoryofthecoelc9106]

There are also a handful of Lutheran groups that practice online communion. Most Lutheran churches oppose this, but a small handful practice it. The most notable of these groups is the Aletheia Lutheran International Evangelical Synod (ALIES), which was original founded as an online church mission within the American Association of Lutheran Churches (AALC) by AALC pastor Chris Roseborough

[@toilet_cleaner_man]

I can just imagine a fresh seminarian trying to shove the host through a webcam, I get lockdown was hard but cmon.

[@katie7748]

Well, I mean, gynecologists and OBGYNs were doing virtual appointments back then. Some still do. I didn't know you could use a speculum or hear heartbeats that way but 🤷‍♀️

[@theconsistoryofthecoelc9106]

Other outliners. The COELC and OLCC. These two church bodies have a high view of the Office of the Ministry. For this reason they oppose most forms of lay ministry inside the church. They both reject the use of lay-lectors (laity reading the scripture verses during service), reject lay absolution (laity pronouncing absolution), reject lay consecration (laity consecrating Holy Communion in the absence of a pastor), reject lay distribution (laity assisting in the distribution of Holy Communion), and reject lay preaching (laity preaching sermons either written by themself or prepared by a pastor). Both COELC and OLCC have strict views on Lay-reading services (laity leading a service in absence of a pastor). The COELC follow the 1600s practice of having a the congregation gather to recite Luther's Small Catechism and sing hymns, whereas the OLCC opposes any service not lead by a pastor. If no pastor is presence then there is no church on Sunday. This is very different to most other Lutheran bodies. Many Lutherans will debate over certain points like: can laywomen do such and such or just lay men? Most oppose lay absolution and lay consecration, but are fine with lay lectors, lay distribution, lay preaching and lay reading. The COELC and the OLCC are the only who oppose lay-preaching, and the OLCC is the only one that opposes any form of lay-reading. (Note: I say this as a member of the COELC, which split from the OLCC, so I know the positions of these groups)

[@jacksonrpaul]

As a Lutheran “Abstinence from alcohol is not a very common Lutheran position” got me hard 😂

[@HeatherSt.Therese]

You should do a video on the Old Apostolic Lutheran Church

[@user-zu2bw7ig5v]

I grew up with and currently live around a couple thousand old apps 😂

[@ianpardue2615]

​@@user-zu2bw7ig5vI'd like to learn how they interpret the UAC

[@resistivpeach]

yeah… it’s a cult.

[@AF-tv6uf]

You're good with the Latin! I'm like "ex...opera...vibratto?"

[@Apriluser]

😂

[@JoelRipke]

Lol. It's an important distinction! It is not the action of baptism that saves, but promises of Christ that are delivered through baptism.

[@run4cmt]

What about the NALC?

[@timkrueger4145]

Could you do a video on the Protestant movement? I am a WELS member but my Grandpa (Formerly LCMS) joined the Protestant church. He tells me they split from the WELS in the 1920's over some drama dealing with Seminary students. They have a published series called "Faith Life".

[@Garyguygax]

You could also discuss UAC or Unaltered Augsberg Confessional Lutherans. This is a cross denominational Lutheran movement.

[@johnhouchins3156]

More of a definition than movement. A movement suggests a new idea. Confessional Lutherans are truer to the confessions, where we started. If you've departed from the confessions, you are the movement not us. We're holding fast, we're not moving anywhere.

[@Garyguygax]

@@johnhouchins3156 A movement can be toward old or new ideas. UAC is a movement based on a confession not a definition.. As is Lutheranism. I wouldn’t call the Lutheran Churches with UAC signs definitions. Mainstream Lutheranism has moved very far afield from anything Luther or Melanchthon would recognize as Christian much less Lutheran. The return to orthodoxy is a movement of the faithful remnant. I don’t see calling this a definition as making any sense.

[@evangelicalcatholics]

LCMS, formally, is Unaltered Augsburg Confession, but as a confession of faith, not as a movement. This is not to say that there aren't pastors or churches who aren't in concord with this, but it is what we are as a Synod.

[@Garyguygax]

@@evangelicalcatholics Do you have a link to the document where they formalize their UAC membership?

[@evangelicalcatholics]

@@Garyguygax No, because confessing the Unaltered Augsburg Confession isn't a matter of membership in a group, but fundamental to true, orthodox, confessional Lutheranism. For example, there is a UAC church in Milwaukee, WI (Trinity Lutheran UAC) which is an LCMS church. UAC isn't a church body, but a confession of faith.

[@stephanottawa7890]

Sehr interessant....What about the German Pietists? I have gone to their church near Guelph, Ontario. They have their own sort of liturgy and their own history stemming from the Gebetsverein in East Prussia.

[@maxkerr1777]

"Lah-stah-dee-in" [Lə stɑ di ʎɪɴ] The emphasis is on the second syllable. That's how the Lutherans in my circles (ELS, WELS) pronounce it anyway :)

[@user-zu2bw7ig5v]

That is how it's said. You are correct

[@allanmendez5661]

Great video brother. I’d be interested to see outliers with The Historical Wesleyan movement.

[@Mrchevybelair57]

Historical Wesleyan movement? Are you referring to the Holiness movement?

[@allanmendez5661]

@@Mrchevybelair57 Thank you for the question. Well the “Historic Wesleyan” movement is much brother than that. That is just one sliver of it. You can take a whole history class on The Wesleyan Movement. I was privileged to take it in seminary. It embarks different movements in different parts of the world. For example, the way The Wesleyan Movement took place in Asian countries looks verify different from here in the USA, Latin America, and Africa. For example, in many Asian countries that are a shame-based culture; the way they understand sin is completely different from what we in the west understand sin to be. Therefore, when Asian Theologians speak of atonement and holiness it is from a Shame-based culture and not a legalization point of view, like in the west. There is different metaphors of atonement and sanctification in scriptures. Early Church Father and Missionaries used them depending on the culture they went to share the good news. To be more specific, I would be interested to see American Wesleyan outliers.

[@T-41]

Well presented and interesting . Thanks.

[@frankschipani7682]

Very interesting. I'd like to see an outlier video on Churches of Christ or Reformation Movement churches.

[@innovationhq8230]

I video on anabaptist outliers would be interesting. Are there any Calvinistic mennonites?

[@brendaboykin3281]

Thanx, Joshua🌹🌹🌹

[@infinitylord08]

there are Lutherans who say ,"Baptism does not save"?

[@ReadyToHarvest]

Yes, see my video on LCMC for an example, some churches in the denomination say that.

[@franklinshouse8719]

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

[@medleysa]

Lol denominations that ban alcohol crack me up. They seem to forget Jesus drank wine, the Apostles drank wine, church fathers drank alcohol. Heck, even key people like Luther and Calvin had alcohol stipends written in their work contracts.

[@MRTOWELRACK]

The rationale is that a Christian standards have increased (we can be less imperfect) because our options to do so have become more viable. Personally, I drink alcohol, especially beer. I think of alcohol much like candy or video games - moderation is key.

[@doriesse824]

Eph. 5:18

[@geordiewishart1683]

So you know that the word translated as wine refers to fermented wine and not freshly pressed grape juice?

[@TurtleMarcus]

The historical explanation is that the Laestadian movement started as a revival among the indigenous Sami people in northern Scandinavia. Alcoholism was rampant, and teetotalism became an important identifyer for the movement.

[@basedsmoke591]

its more of a genetic reason than a spiritual one, Nordic people have a very high genetic predisposition to become alcoholics even after only having a small amount, so it is avoided to be safe.

[@catholicactionbibleonlyist1813]

My brother has problems with the KJV

[@musicalintentions]

fascinating!

[@audesigns42]

4:40 “ universal reconciliation”. You know, there’s a few beliefs where I REALLY REALLY WANT them to be right…but I have to live like they’re wrong. The annihilation view of the Lake of Fire is another one of these beliefs. The more I live and the older I get, the more it’s dawned on me that I know people have done wrong in this life…but the Lake of Fire is eternal…..and eternity is a loooooooooooong time and the only eternally punished beings I want to see there are the devil and his angels. If universal reconciliation is not true, then I DEFINITELY want the annihilationism view to be true. However my opinion doesn’t change what exists, and we’ll only find out on The Other Side, so I just hope they’re true but I live like they’re not because the risk of being *wrong* is MUCH more dangerous than being *right*🤷‍♂️

[@fluffysheap]

I would really like universal reconciliation to be true, but it's just not biblical. God desires all souls to be saved, but when it comes to humanity, God desires lots of things that we don't live up to. The good news is that the traditional Christian concept of hell isn't biblical either. It's Greek. Not Hellenized Jewish, just plain Greek. A lot of it comes from Dante, who lived in the Middle Ages! Annihilationism really is the most likely. It has the fewest theological problems, completely compatible with scripture, and is similar enough to the Jewish concepts of the afterlife that would have been common 2000 years ago.

[@ckhound1]

I would be very interested if you could do one on the "Old Regular Baptist" denomination. It is very small, but has background in the Primitive Baptists, and Anti Missionary movements even. It would also be interesting to see anything on the Church of Christ, they generally take the bible verse mentioning church of christ to mean that only they will see heaven due to their name, they I believe use Water in Communion, have communion at ever service, and are cessasionalists

[@patmacken5130]

I think outliers is an interesting idea though later going into the more detail of why they have these differing views and where they came from would be good for when you might get short on new video subjects

[@huwadamson]

What was that Latin you used?

[@ReadyToHarvest]

Here you go, from a Lutheran perspective: wels.net/faq/ex-opere-operato/

[@wyllowgrayson8531]

I love your videos! Would you consider making one about sedevacantist Catholics?

[@friend904]

Jesus Christ is the ONLY one who can save and is the ONLY way to Heaven.

[@JoelRipke]

Is this regarding baptism?

[@RepublicofE]

Baptism=Jesus

[@kobe.talamantez]

Baptism saves through Jesus death and resurrection, which is applied to us in Baptism, as said in Romans 6:3-4, Galatians 3:27 and 1 Peter 3:21-22

[@Dilley_G45]

This does not mean you can't be a member of a denomination as long as your denomination sticks to the Bible...as Confessional Lutherans do. ELCA is full blown heretic. Eldona, WELS, LCMS, ELS, AALC are churches you can go to. Nothing is perfect of course but you have to make a choice.

[@richardsaintjohn8391]

We get it man.

[@thetraditionalist]

Interesting, I had never heard of these lutherans

[@nickmoser7785]

I wonder what would a cross between pietist lutherisn and orthodox presbyterianism would look like. I would imagine it would probably look similar to the congregationalist or even some anabaptist groups such as the brethren. Even though I think both are incorrect. I think Orthodox Christianity and Eastern Catholic are probably closer to the original Church

[@doriesse824]

Why do their priests wear black, and what in the new testament teaches for there to be priests now?

[@northmd]

any lutherans that dont hold to baptismal regeneration?

[@soundimpact4633]

Me. Quick funny story I'm an official member of a church a WELS Synod Church, but I never actually joined. I was raised in the WELS synod and thought I would come home so I went through the instructions again and started realizing I don't believe what they believe. My final wrestling was with baptism. I just flat out don't believe in infant baptism. To me that's like treating the Holy Spirit like he's a magic wand or treating the word of God like it's a magical incantation. None of the questions I asked were answered properly by the pastors and it left me questioning whether they even really truly understood what they believed. Or what they believed they believed. Oh the reason I stated that I was joining but that I'm not actually a member? I wasn't feeling well the morning of the day I was supposed to join and I think it was anxiety. Anyway I never went and stood before the congregation to be accepted as a member but a year and a half later they called me and asked me if I wanted them to come and give me communion. They didn't even realize I wasn't a member. Sad. But on the flip side I'm now the church Secretary of lcms, and that has been eye-opening as well. Not a member there either. I don't know where to go.

[@doriesse824]

@@soundimpact4633 Have you found a place yet? I feel in the same boat as you. I cannot find anything that I agree with all the way. I have to combine some of them, but there are no communities or churches for this.

[@ericlefevre7741]

Baptismal regeneration is definitional to lutheranism.

[@bloodboughtbigphilr8266]

The Church Of The Lutheran Brethren appear sound in their soteriology and firmly evangelical. Didn't the EFCA have their origins from a similar stream of Lutheran pietism amongst Scandinavian immigrants? With their largely premillennial stance, surprised the COTLB haven't merged into the EFCA and would have much more in common with them than mainstream Lutheranism.

[@nathanmiddaugh6986]

The CLBA are firmly evangelical in practice but can get odd when you say that. EFCA and CLBA both come from Scandinavian pietism. But no they won’t merge due to their conflicting positions on the sacraments. EFCA tends to take a more “Baptist” position and CLBA are still Lutheran. I grew up around both and if it weren’t for the sacrament and missions, they were pretty similar. CLBA are focused on denominational missions where EFCA support specific people identified by the local church.

[@poo_8857]

Do SSPX & other sedevacantists

[@nomore9004]

SSPX is a sedevacantist organization?

[@erravi]

@@nomore9004 SSPX isn’t sede

[@justinpetrash1005]

I personally like the NET Bible, most recent full translation of the oldest documents we have

[@justinpetrash1005]

They give their best translation but will offer other options the KJV and beyond say as well and occasionally just tell you what the Hebrew word means and implies

[@tctn615]

Great video

[@mrdannyheim6712]

saves from what?

[@geraldparker8125]

A grouop of Lutherans, not a denomination per se, but "Independent Lutherans" from various synods meeting in conference, is the Kokomo Conference (meeting annually in Kokomo, Indiana). This pan-Lutheran group defends the sole use of the K.J.V. Bible in English and vigourously resists the U.O.J. doctrine whcih you mention. among other matters. Actually, I am not sure that it still meets in its excellent conferences. but it is far from forgotten. Other Synodical Conference Lutherans grossly distort its history and doctrinal stands.

[@christopherbayne9061]

Association of Free Lutheran Congregations AFLC ( Hi from Sheridan, IL )

[@angelbonilla4243]

Many Charismatic Lutherans in Africa.

[@AmericanShia786]

Living in Minnesota, I have been exposed to the Laestadian Lutherans, ELDoNA, and lived a block away from a LCoR or Lutheran Churches of the Reformation congregation. I am not a member per se, but I attend an ELDoNA divine service every Sunday morning using Zoom. I like confessional Lutheranism, but not the objective justification doctrine. Luther and Zwingli would have had 2 points of contention had Luther himself believed the objective justification doctrine, in my opinion. I love comparative religion, so I'm subscribed to your channel.

[@chadkyler5011]

The Lutheran Orthodox Church & Lutheran Church International both maintain the historic episcopate with Apostolic Succession which makes them outliers in American Lutheranism.

[@nomore9004]

Would be interesting to hear about Traditional Catholicism

[@albertito77]

If the Laestadians ban contraception then we can expect their numbers to grow like the Amish have. In other words WATCH THIS SPACE. we can expect to see a lot more from them in coming years

[@aidanrileyaugustinebickel6552]

The Laestadians have existed for over 200 years now, in various forms. If there were gonna be a population boom of them, it most likely would've happened.

[@albertito77]

@@aidanrileyaugustinebickel6552 if their birthrate had kept from extinction then sooner or later we can expect to see their numbers explode

[@millero15]

I'm a Laestadian in Finland, and yes, we have massive families. We have a much higher fertility rate than the rest of the population, and we're still going strong. However, there really isn't much info out there about our population history, so I can't say much about our actual rate of growth.

[@no8592]

@@albertito77 They have 4-13 child families in Finland and summer meetings that have 100 thousand attendees annually. Finland has 5.5 million people.

[@ianpardue2615]

​@@millero15I agree with the Laestadians on birth control, since it is the historic position. The only reason churches have changed their mind in the last fifty years is due to its popularity amongst the laity once it became legal and available. I've been looking for resources on the Laestadians and the sermons of Lars Levi Laestadius for a couple of years now. Can you provide any such information? Are the Laestadians confessional Lutherans? If so, how do they explain the wearing of headscarves? Doesn't that contradict the Augsburg Confession chapter on ecclesiastical power? If not, I really want to know the reason. I saw in the swedish Wikipedia that some of the groups of the Laestadians wear headscarves: Västlæstadianerna menar även att kvinnor, i enlighet med Bibeln, skall täcka håret under gudstjänst (vilket brukar göras medelst huckle).

[@ostiedestrie2155]

Every times he says "Baptism saves..." all I hear is "WOAH, baptism saves?! Dude, did you ever hear about the thief on the cross?!"

[@johnhouchins3156]

You do understand that the thief on the cross was saved before Christ instituted baptism, right? Baptism is A means of Grace, not the only means of Grace. And no, John the Baptist was NOT baptizing in the manner instituted by Christ. He was not baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

[@stephenhoughton632]

Most of us who belive that baptism saves don't think God is restricted in how he saves, just that baptism is the means he gave us to save.

[@gr82baliveagain]

I believe this comment is a tongue in cheek reference to the LutheranSatire video "WaddaBout the thief on the cross."

[@gsromanoski]

Churches of Christ have institutional (mainline), Non-institutional, One Cuppers, No Classers, Mutual Edificationists, Instrumental, some who have women ministers, and then overlap with Christian Churches and Disciples of Christs. Seems like a lot of outliers there...

[@sorenpx]

LOL why no sports? Seems very random.

[@Apriluser]

Probably because there is competition and that’s considered unchristian-like.

[@sorenpx]

@@Apriluser That sounds like a dreadfully dull way to live.

[@innovationhq8230]

Sports idolaty is a very popular sin today.

[@jeffkardosjr.3825]

Maybe it's the gambling aspect that often goes with it.

[@connorhall5316]

Growing up in this religion, the argument against competitive sports is that you are exposed to “worldly” influences around you. Basically, the reasoning was that you would be around people that aren’t from church that could tempt you into activities such as drinking or listening to worldly music

[@odessaxmusicclips6028]

Didn't Martin Luther have scrupulosity and was abusive to his fellow Catholic monks who didn't agree with his translation of the Bible?

[@davidboehmer4359]

I was raised LCMS. I was taught that. But. No .I had to meet Jesus on my own. On his terms of surrender at the cross.

[@JoelRipke]

Praise God that His Son is Lord! I'm raised LCMS and still part of an LCMS church. I do believe that all of God's promises to me in Christ we're fully handed over to me in baptism but I definitely wrestled with it as a younger adult and Jesus won my heart.

[@Michael29040]

The problem of teaching universal reconciliation is that since everyone is going to Heaven you don't really need to go to church or need sacraments. That may be why the General Lutheran Church is so small. I'm in the ELCA but I go to a traditional church where we teach that some people will go to hell. (After all even Jesus aaid this in his Parable of the Sower and in Revelation).

[@toilet_cleaner_man]

You are so very close to the truth and it hurts to have to call you out, but that simply isn't what UOJ is. From a WELS, UOJ is the biblically founded doctrine that the sacrifice on the cross was a substitution for the whole world, and that everyone in the world was justified by the sacrifice of Christ Jesus; this is probably in line with what you already know, but what you may not know is the essential distinction between that justification and salvation. In that justification, we understand that those who openly defy God, after He Himself washed the sin away by His very blood, cannot then be still justified. So, if you take an Atheist who spends every waking moment deriding Christendom, and a good Christian who is Baptized, attends Church or reads their bible, and submits themselves to the Lord and accept his free gift of salvation; both were justified by the sacrifice of Christ (that is to say, the sacrifice was so great that it truly did justify everyone, the atonement was in no way limited), but it is obvious that the Atheist's heart is sealed by their sin and pride against the Lord, so while the good Christian is safe in their salvation so long as they believe it to be true, the Atheist will be in for a rude awakening at the end of days, for unless they repent and humble themselves to Christ, they surely will perish. All were justified, and the sacrifice was good so that the sins of man were washed asunder, but to those who still do not accept this free and universal gift, it is sure that they will face hellfire. On the surface, it can be confusingly similar to universalism, but rest assured it most certainly isn't, and I hope this clarification does you good in your faith my brother, God Bless!

[@Michael29040]

@@toilet_cleaner_man By universal reconciliation I meant the belief that all humans are going to Heaven straight up. I don't subscribe to universal reconciliation.

[@lpcruz5661]

@@toilet_cleaner_man UOJ is just the wrong way of speaking about the mixture of the atonement with justification - UOJ says that all people have been justified already at the cross or depending who you are speaking at Jesus's resurrection - no one in the evangelical Protestant world believe this. What Scripture do you use to assert that the atheist has already been justified? You mean he is justified while he is in his sins? To say that he is justified in Christ is not even accurate because he is NOT in Christ; without faith in Christ no one is saved. There is no Scripture that says that all the world has already been justified prior to them having faith - so the burden is for the UOJer to prove there is this justification that happened to them before they were born. Also that runs counter to the teaching that all humans born in this world are under God's wrath due to original sin.

[@Normicgander]

Luther's church split? 🤔

[@richardsaintjohn8391]

So has Rome.. lol

[@Normicgander]

@@richardsaintjohn8391 in a way you are correct. People rejected the Catholic Church and started their own. However Catholic doctrines haven't changed, albeit clarified over time...

[@joshuaneace6597]

Stone Choir may be an outlier

[@jasonprocellous5268]

I would say the greatest outlier among Lutherans would be the herchurch in San Fransisco (Ebenezer Lutheran Church) but they probably could be their own video.

[@matthewbless3335]

Heh... Unfortunately so much of the ELCA shades that way that it's not *that* far out there. Much to the chagrin of Confessional Lutheranism 😅

[@samcole4425]

From Calvary Chapel, CCA and CCGN

[@dave1370]

Of course, you *could* just read the Book of Concord to see what Lutheranism says. "What does Baptism give or profit?--Answer. It works forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this."

[@k-v-d1795]

Split, split, and split again. The definition of Western ''Christianity''

[@johnrutavičius4580]

As to number 5, one thing I would note is that stacking up all the other groups on one side and ELDoNA on the other makes ELDoNA look more like an outlier than is real. All of the "confessional" bodies are just versions of the Synodical Conference. The little groups just mirror the LCMS and WELS on this issue. It isn't as if there are many different perspectives on the question. There are just two among Lutherans.

[@convertedsinner9536]

I would say to the contrary, that this video makes like the eldona position is less of an outlier than it really is. Seeing the seven versus one denominations makes it look like Eldona is one out of eight. Reality is that Eldona churches are less than 1 in 100 of american Lutheran Churches. Eldona's position is so outside of the mainstream that a video like this is the only conceivable place it should even be mentioned at all.

[@johnrutavičius4580]

@@convertedsinner9536 yes you could stack up 100 groups on one side but in 98 out of 100 it isn't an active debate. Once one gets past the LCMS and WELS, this question doesn't really come up on anyone else's radar. Is anyone in the AFLC even talking about this? Maybe one person? I doubt it.

[@jacoblivingston1370]

Do CREC

[@michaelbellone1680]

So Lutherans are Donatists by rejecting ex opere operato?

[@TurtleMarcus]

I think it's more about the Lutheran reject of "ex opere operato" as a Catholic theological paradigm. Lutherans reject "ex opere operato" in the sense that the Sacraments only bring blessings and forgiveness to those who believe, so that you are forgiven, not by the Sacrament being performed, but by believing in the promise associated with the Sacrament.

[@bootmender]

I am getting dizzy, if you take any 2 people of the same sex, same age and same denomination they won’t agree on everything, we are humans, that’s the way GOD made us? 🤷

[@johnhouchins3156]

No, that's NOT what God made us. That's what we fell into.

[@bootmender]

@@johnhouchins3156 God did not makes us to be like ants; He gave us free Will and then gave us a choice to make decisions, right or wrong!

[@Sebman1113]

from my experience, Universalism is an outlier in the ELCA.

[@henricusrealms8411]

From the 1950s to the 1970s there were several small splits from the WELS, ELS and LCMS over the LCMSs failure to deal with the Higher Criticism error in a timely manner. Those Lutheran "outliers" might be worth mentioning in a video.

[@philipmorgan5500]

Independent Baptist versus armenianism

[@leullakew9579]

Arminian Charismatic Baptists!

[@davidw.5185]

If you want to know what an actual Lutheran/evangelical catholic believes, you have to read the Book of Concord. This is the confession to go by. Everything else is adulterated or even syncretistic.

[@jochimbenschneider1915]

Lutheran under the true Christian Evangelical Catholic Church believes that baptism does save by scriptures-What is Baptism? Baptism is not just plain water, but it is the water included in God’s command and combined with God’s word. Which is that word of God? Christ our Lord says in the last chapter of Matthew: “Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” What benefits does Baptism give? It works forgiveness of sins, rescues from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare. Which are these words and promises of God? Christ our Lord says in the last chapter of Mark: “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” How can water do such great things? Certainly not just water, but the word of God in and with the water does these things, along with the faith which trusts this word of God in the water. For without God’s word the water is plain water and no Baptism. But with the word of God it is a Baptism, that is, a life giving water, rich in grace, and a washing of the new birth in the Holy Spirit, as St. Paul says in Titus chapter three: “He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by His grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy saying.” (Titus 3:5-8) What does such baptizing with water indicate? It indicates that the Old Adam in us should by daily contrition and repentance be drowned and die with all sins and evil desires, and that a new man should daily emerge and arise to live before God in righteousness and purity forever. Where is this written? St. Paul writes in Romans chapter six: “We were therefore buried with Him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.” (Romans 6:4) What we believe about baptism: Baptism is essentially a means by which He has chosen to bring us His Spirit and the forgiveness of sins. God often uses things which seem ordinary to do miraculous works. He speaks to us through a book. He came to us in human flesh. He even spoke through an ass! God often hides Himself in ordinary elements as He reveals Himself. This is the same with the water of baptism. We believe in baptismal regeneration. This means that the Spirit has chosen to work through baptismal water in the same way that He works through His word. Reformed Christians often say that the preached word is a means of regeneration but baptism is not. We believe that both are means which God uses to bring His promise to us. Baptism is the gospel in visible form, thus it gives all of the benefits of the gospel. We believe in infant baptism. Since infants cannot understand the word, God uses baptism as a means to regenerate them and bring them into the faith. Through it, God gives faith. If faith is truly a gift of God and not a human work, God can certainly do this for an infant. He can also do it through whatever means He has chosen. We believe that baptism is a form of the gospel, not a form of the law. Baptism is an act performed by Christ, through the hands of the administer of the sacrament. It is His gift of life and salvation. It is not a work we do. It is not something we do to profess our faith, or to profess that we will raise our children in the faith. It is a gift of grace through the promise of the gospel.

[@sdb6757]

Good grief! Who knew that Lutherans were as confused as Baptists?

[@Wayne55125]

It is inaccurate to say Lutherans believe Baptism saves. I went to seminary and we specifically talked about Baptism is not some sort of insurance policy for salvation. We are saved through Jesus sacrifice and resurrection and the faith that comes through the Holy Spirit.

[@ReadyToHarvest]

It is not inaccurate to say that Lutherans say Baptism saves. What would be inaccurate is to say as you seem to hint, that saying "Baptism Saves" means that it is "some sort of insurance policy for salvation." Here's some Lutheran sources to learn more: Why do Lutherans say that baptism actually saves you? kzbin.info/www/bejne/bWHFk3eNediUqa8 Five Scriptural Proofs that Baptism Saves kzbin.info/www/bejne/b6qxY6Oid5J1mJo 1 Peter 3:21-22, Baptism Saves You kzbin.info/www/bejne/fZSvlouanpeth9k

[@daveb9342]

Fun Stuff Here.

[@monicawilson896]

The criminal on the cross with Jesus that Jesus said would join Him in Paradise was not baptized. We are saved by faith alone. We are told to be baptized but it doesn’t save us. It is a public acknowledgment of our faith in Christ as our Lord and Savior and symbolic of our death to sin and born again life in Jesus Christ.

[@zarnoffa]

Baptism is Jesus saying to you personally, “You will be with me in Paradise.” That personal Promise of forgiveness saves us. This is what Baptism is and God is doing the work, not us. It’s done in His Name and by His command. So, anyone who says God’s Word and Name don’t save us should stop and reflect a bit.

[@turnipmerchant6103]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/bKGakmChiciGkNE

[@zarnoffa]

@Jaykob Seiler Baptism saves because it’s the Promise of God washing us and declaring us forgiven, not because we’re doing a good work. It’s God’s work in God’s Name.

[@zarnoffa]

@Jaykob Seiler The appeal for a clear conscience (forgiveness) is not your own - it’s Jesus Christ’s appeal… through His Resurrection. This perfect appeal saves you - not your own. The perfect appeal for forgiveness happened at the Cross (death) and the resulting forgiveness (resurrection) is received in Baptism. You can always return to Baptism and remember God’s Promise to you there. Don’t make it about yourself. It’s about Christ and His work and His Promise (His Word) to you in Baptism.

[@svalkonen]

No one ever shall be more baptized than the criminal on the cross. The christian baptism is a teleport to the cross and this man was actually there, on the cross. When you deny baptism as an occasion where one is dressed in Jesus and therefore saved you deny Jesus, the apostles and New Testament, no less. And if you say one who is dressed up in Jesus is not saved, you clearly are outside of Jesus and need to get back in as soon as possible.

[@bigwhane8603]

0:48

[@polemeros]

Sola scriptura = the Tower of Bible.

[@mzmPACman]

found the catholic

[@shermanrobb877]

KJV Pentecostals

[@billmartin3561]

30,000 denominations. Don’t like a teaching, just go create a new church. That’s what you get with no authority…

[@innovationhq8230]

That includes lots of Romans catholics. Like spreading disinfo?

[@edwardluth7740]

All true Lutheran churches believe Baptism saves with faith. See the book of Concorde.

[@doriesse824]

How can an infant have or express faith?

[@edwardluth7740]

@@doriesse824 haven’t do you ever read the Bible? Are you not aware of what happened whenever Mary was with child and she met Elizabeth and John the Baptist leaped in Elizabeth’s womb?

[@doriesse824]

@@edwardluth7740 He was a very special case, as the Bible also says. However, if you want to insist that this is true of every baby, they would need to show the same kind of sign in order for the parent to know that the baby is expressing faith.

[@edwardluth7740]

@@doriesse824 I think it’s time for you to be quiet because you don’t know your Bible and you don’t understand baptism at all. There are so many passages that states baptism saves and babies can have faith now must I keep going because you’re just another one of these fundamentalists or a Baptist that don’t believe the true faith.

[@edwardluth7740]

@@doriesse824 and John the Baptist was no more special than anybody else ever born. God is no respecter of persons. Haven’t you seen that passage? Evidently you have not.

[@timothykwoh6172]

Thank God these exceptions exist in Lutheranism considering the overall apostasy of Lutheranism. In my lifetime, there has only been 1 Lutheran theologian and pastor that I actually bothered to listen to. That was none other than the late Kurt Koch. He was premillennial, rejected the replacement theology of Luther and had a belief in literal eschatology whilst rejecting charismatic excesses.

[@soundimpact4633]

Thank you for that. I also was raised Lutheran, yet I am a premillennial, I hold it to the KJV because of the texts used and I reject the Jesuit alexandrian texts and more embrace the Antioch texts that the KJV the Luther Bible the Tyndale the Geneva all came from. I reject infant baptism. But I hold to consubstantiation. As you can see there's not a denomination out there for me.....oh my. I once believed that the Bible was inerrant but as I have studied scripture, the process of translations, the possibility of Jesuit or Masonic underpinnings (they seem to have their hands in everything) I'm not so sure. I still hold the scripture and I love the truth. But I admit there are things I don't understand. I am also a proponent of James and hold to the understanding that faith without works is dead. We are not saved by works we are saved by grace, but if at all possible our faith is expressed through our works. Love trust and obedience. Those are my solas.

[@josephparks4270]

Outliers are not the most interesting topic, except to identify those beliefs that are common. But even still, why choose the Lutherans first? There would seem to be more fertile ground for this topic among Baptists or other low church nondenominal types of various flavors.

[@jongoodwin5936]

We expect there to be many outliers in the Baptist churches, not so much among Lutherans. Also, the ones he mentioned were interesting and might be unknown to most people, and again, they are a surprise.

[@k9builder]

Yes, baptism saves. See 1 Peter 3:21.

[@k9builder]

Also, how about Roman Catholic outliers?

[@FreddyCastaneda1]

Yes, baptism saves. But the real question is what kind of baptism. If it is water baptism, then it does NOT save. The verse is simply saying that this baptism "saves you" because it "corresponds" to that which truly saves you, that is, an appeal to God for a good conscience through the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, NOT the washing of dirt from the body. See Romans 10:10 What we then need to ask is how this appeal to God for a good conscience comes about. Titus 3:5 clearly tells us it is the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit. In other words, baptism of the Holy Spirit. It's God's own work that is the cause of our salvation and our appeal to God (a work done by us in righteousness, which does not save) is the result of that which truly saves us.

[@k9builder]

@@FreddyCastaneda1 Sounds like you believe we can choose to be saved. Show me that and the sinner's prayer, and it must be verbatim.

[@FreddyCastaneda1]

@@johnmarquardt1991 as a Christian one must believe all of the Scriptures. There is no picking and choosing.

[@FreddyCastaneda1]

@@k9builder I'm Calvinist. I don't believe that one's own actions can save himself/herself, that includes "choosing" to be saved. One's salvation is all God's doing. Our actions in receiving that Salvation is a result of God's doing. Therefore, I have nothing to boast about and all glory belongs to God.

[@RealBobEvans]

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” - John 3:3 “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire” - Matthew 3:11 “That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise” - Ephesians 1:12-13 “And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” - Acts 8:36-37 “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” - John 6:63 “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” - Romans 8:1 “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” - 2 Corinthians 5:17 “Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” - 2 Timothy 2:19

[@musicforlife64ful]

Well, tbf, ELCA is the biggest outlier, they can pretty believe in anything cuz of their theological liberalism 🤣

[@erichred2858]

The crown of england is crown of David. KJV is like king David ordaining it.

[@savtay6922]

A Lutheran just told me today that Jesus married Mary Magdalene and has kids. What in the world

[@mzmPACman]

Must have been ELCA

[@DefenderOfChrist_]

Not a Lutheran

[@mikeonthecomputer]

KJV of 1611 as in before translation corrections? (and on a more minor point, spelling reform?) KJV 1611 isn't perfect. It's probably 95% of the way there, but there's a reason the KJV text has been revised multiple times in the centuries since. People make mistakes, including the original translators and typesetests. KJV 1611 is beautiful, it's a work of art. There's a few replica versions around, I personally have the one printed by Hendrickson. I'd even recommend it as a work of art, but probably not as a foundation of doctrine. Most of it is identical to current versions (aside from spelling reform), but a few passages are altered. Examples, and I'll reform the spelling myself: 1611 Psalm 69:32: The humble shall see this, and be glad: and your heart shall live that seek good. 1769 Psalm 69:32: The humble shall see this, and be glad: and your heart shall live that seek God. 1611 Mark 10:18: And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is no man good, but one, that is God. 1769 Mark 10:18: And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. These are by far not an exhaustive list, but a couple examples. You can use "1611" and "1769" as clues in web searches for finding lists (and there are more revisions of KJV than these, but these are the major ones known today). While the 1611 is beautiful and fascinating, I don't think it ought to be used as the source of truth.