Make Sodium Hydroxide by Electrolysis with a Nafion Membrane Cell

[@NurdRage]

I currently intend to make a lab equipment video. I recently got a donation of expensive lab equipment (rotovap, vacuum aspirator, water chiller) and i'd like to show them since amateurs rarely get to see or use such equipment.

[@warmonger12z]

That's a very generous donation - where did it come from?

[@cake4919]

@NurdRage That would be awesome! Btw, about the amateur-accessible anion exchange membrane that you briefly discussed wanting to make in your video, someone has already made a video on making these, multiple videos in fact, with various different membranes displayed. His channel name is mysteriousbhoice and the channel is pretty obscure but he probably has the best electrochemistry channel on youtube. Here is a recent video of him making an anion exchange membrane, and I highly recommend checking out many of his other videos kzbin.info/www/bejne/sJO5nmeEe9eKgK8 Also, if you ever do get a large enough collection of analytical equipment it would make for an interesting lab equipment video to explain and display analytical equipment such as NMR, spectrophotometer, UV-VIS, FT-IR, etc.

[@LucaLBO495]

🎉

[@fireveno]

Can nafion work for multivalent atoms like aluminum? Can this whole experiment be done in a way to drive aluminum atoms to a electrode?

[@OldShatterham]

I would definitely look forward to that!

[@galefeynman9796]

Glad to see you're still at it. You were the first chemistry KZbinr I ever watched and you started off one hell of an addiction.

[@chrisweatherley9587]

Ditto... iodine tincture to I2. Back when i was a bit naughty 20yr ago. Now I'm downright evil and wanna know what happens when you throw phenyalanine in that thing.

[@scenepool]

Great to see you get some videos out again. never miss one. keep up the great work.

[@PepekBezlepek]

OH MY GOD YOU ARE BACK 🤗🤗🤗

[@GoTurbo]

Glad to see you back after so long

[@DrMattBug]

I'm not a chemist, and love your videos. Thank you 💖

[@JdGeier]

Wow two videos in a week. Glad to see more content from you again!

[@PepekBezlepek]

wait I missed one?? :O

[@Kevin-jz9bg]

As always enlightening video! If you can't get nafion, a clay pot works as well for making acids or bases. Make sure it's not glazed, and plug the hole at the bottom if there is one. I've gotten up to 4.5M NaOH from baking soda and 1M sulfuric acid from Epsom salt. The anion/cation you want to separate from the salt will diffuse back a bit, but the solution will be still pure because (HCO3)- is repelled from the cathode and Mg2+ is repelled from the anode. Harry from Scrap Science has more on that!

[@CatboyChemicalSociety]

or ionomer cement which is deionizer resin mixed with cement and casted and this works just like nafion.

[@francisjahera1150]

What voltage do you use?

[@Kevin-jz9bg]

​@@francisjahera1150 For better yield, It's the current that matters more. I set mine power supply to constnat 3-4 amps, and with my electrode sizes and pot geometry, was about 4-5V for the lye and 6-9V for sulfuric acid. So basically, 5V should be fine. Crank it up if it's too slow for your liking, turn it down if your electrodes start to degrade.

[@drdynanite]

2 videos in 2 days you're spoiling us

[@moogyboy6]

Another brilliant Nurdrage original video. So glad to see that you're still producing even if it's just working with vintage footage :-) I've been binge watching the sodium production and water purification videos again and again to tide me over, I'm going through a tough time myself, I know I'll never be a chemist or anything close to your level but when I watch and listen to Nurdrage I can briefly feel smarter than I probably am, there's something oddly comforting in there. Thanks from a loyal fan.

[@jmd_2319]

2 videos in a week. A blessing indeed 😌

[@ripinskimoinskidoinski]

I am very glad you are back, I always find your videos engaging.

[@Camdor5]

I'm jazzed that you're back after the nearly year-long hiatus. I love these videos

[@science_and_anonymous]

You have no idea how happy I am to see that you're back.

[@lazyman7505]

The Return of the King! Good to see you back!

[@-KiTToBuG]

In 2396 your brain in a jar is gonna get so many emails.

[@hbasejanitor]

so happy to see you back

[@DembaiVT]

So glad to see you back NurdRage! Lots of good vibes!

[@hubrisnaut]

I actual play around with the idea of creating a diy exchange membrane from water softening beads a while ago.

[@JehuMcSpooran]

Do it! It would be epic if you could make your own PEM for fuel cells

[@CatboyChemicalSociety]

I have a video on that called ionomer cement where you put them in a blender and mix them with cement powder.

[@CoinDragon]

Great to see a new video! That's one insane membrane!

[@howardman3926]

Return of the King

[@kaboom4679]

Very cool and useful . Of course most people in the us can get it OTC with little hassle , but , others may not be so fortunate . There is always metathesis by reacting calcium hydroxide with sodium carbonate . Calcium hydroxide is easy to make if you have fire , limestone , steel vessels and patience . So that would make an interesting video going from driveway gravel and washing powder , to sodium hydroxide .

[@MadMorgie6318]

Awesome new video; soon as I saw it, I pressed play. Fascinating as always.

[@adelinyoungmark1929]

2 videos in the span of a couple days!? we have been blessed

[@Shabbymannen]

It's great that you're back!!

[@mateo747]

I remember the good old days back in high school when I "borrowed" chemicals and equipment from chem class so I could go replicate NurdRage experiments in a shack in the backyard. I remember being elated to synthesize nitric acid with sodium nitrate, copper and hydrochloric acid. I did it for my love of chemistry. Thanks for another good video and hope to see more! Keep it up.

[@SixTough]

Highly concentrated hot NaOH does etch teflon, diluting might make sense

[@CzarownicaMarta]

Hello again! I feel completely stupid when watching these videos but can't stop, science is so fascinating.

[@RealSamski]

I follow your channel from the early start. Nice to hear from you again.

[@joabenogueira6999]

It was an excellent video, an excellent technical explanation, your video was liked here in Brazil

[@PoorMiners321]

This is one my favorite channel I learn a lot from this, thanks for sharing nice idea on how making sodium hydroxide love it..

[@tedackerson245]

I always enjoy your videos. I took a chemistry in highschool to see chemistry like this. The highschool class turned out to be a math class in disguise.

[@VandonSilverwolf]

Welcome back! Hope to see more videos soon

[@s.sradon9782]

This will certainly be useful for my RV lab.

[@Palmit_]

Glad you're back nurdRage. Thank you :)

[@icediverfull]

love seeing uploads from you

[@edwardwray9056]

Wow! 2 videos in like 3 days. Nice.

[@zikkiro7184]

Great video! Thanks to you I have bought small piece of Nafion. I can get NaOH easily but the process here is so interesting that I just had to buy the Nafion to see and expolore the process. All my years with chemistry both at university and job now and I never heard of Nafion (well we had some little info about membranes in general but not this black magic, dark arts thingy called Nafion) before you have presented it to me. Thank you so much for this video!

[@u.h6844]

I've been wanting to do this for a long while. Thank you

[@-Kerstin]

Crazy if you had this great video sitting on a harddrive for ten years.

[@markbell9742]

Thanks; I am trying to think of more exotic compounds that could be made, but maybe that's on your list. Cheers, Mark

[@nissanzamyadtech.4856]

Hello. Nice to see you again. I was waiting for your videos. Plz keep uploading more videos. We love your contents

[@kkendall99]

Very cool video, your last statement made me laugh "I can't get sodium hydroxide but I can get Nafion"

[@AerialHoopGuy]

So glad to see your videos again! 😁

[@heisenbergstayouttamyterri1508]

I've tried this type of electrolysis(but using clay pot as membrane) and made some H2SO4 from Na2SO4 solution. I'm really glad to see you do such type of experiments! Awsome vid as always! ❤️❤️❤️

[@xxxm981]

Won´t that just dissolve the pot?

[@heisenbergstayouttamyterri1508]

@@xxxm981 I saw some spots on the pot so it does corrode the pot a little. But still, is VERY SLOW. You can try shitload of times before you will finally destroy your pot. For more info, go to the channel "Scrap Science".

[@xxxm981]

@@heisenbergstayouttamyterri1508 Did you ever measure your yield?

[@heisenbergstayouttamyterri1508]

@@xxxm981 Sadly, no. At that time I couldn't coz I didn't have the required instruments to measure the yield. But I was able to test and confirm that it was H2SO4. Like CO2 was released when it was mixed with Sodium carbonate and produced Barium Sulfate precipitate when mixed with soluble barium salts. It contained a very minimal amount of Na+ ions that somehow leaked but was too low to interfere in any reaction.

[@clintongryke6887]

Another really good video; keep 'em coming.

[@chamchawmaledg3273]

عاشت ايدك على هذا العمل العلمي المتقدم

[@Godwh1sperer]

i'm well versed in chemistry but the lil chem kid i was bounces in joy seeing the concentrated sodium hydroxide solution defy osmosis and gravity and just pump itself up into the collection vessel. Its magic seeing that, i love it. Lime, Ca(OH)2, is a dirt cheap construction material. You can turn salt into sodium hydroxide and chlorinated lime, CaCl(OCl), two essential deep-cleaning compounds, one capable to create soap, the other a desinfectant, this is very powerful technology for for instance a field hospital in rural Africa equipped with solar panels.

[@MadScientist267]

Always appreciated.

[@Grak70]

HE’S BACK BABY

[@DonnyHooterHoot]

The Nurd is back in town! Cool!

[@Leadvest]

Last time I looked into this, the 3M website listed ionic exchange membranes as like $300/inch^2, so I haven't thought about them in 7 years.

[@Leonard-tb3gt]

Finally u're back

[@FPengu1n]

I recall you did a video a while back where you separated the components of a spent DI-Water producing Ion exchange cartridge fairly easily by exploiting density differences in the anion and cationic exchange functionalized styrene polymers. Have you considers dissolving the separated beads and casting a film from those solutions to use as anionic / cationic exchange membranes? Obviously those materials lack the superacid functionality of Nafion and would not perform as well but they would be more amateur accessible.

[@hubrisnaut]

My thoughts exactly. I played around with the idea but never attempted it. The beads are cheap and readily available in bulk from places like Home Depot for recharging large whole home filters. There are papers describing the process of making these membranes from scratch but I believe using the styrene beads eliminates multiple steps. All that should necessary is to dissolve the beads in something like acetone, coating a glass plate and allowing the acetone to evaporate. (I'm going off memory here and it has been a while but I believe acetone is the solvent).

[@Ritalinergic]

Because linear polystyrene sulfonate is soluble, they use polystyrene/divinylbenzene copolymer as backbone of resin, making it harder to dissolve. So maybe you can't just dissolve it and make membrane out of resin, and the process might also require some heat.

[@hubrisnaut]

@@Ritalinergic I thought it was just sulfonated polystyrene. I really don't remember the process. I'll have to find the link to the paper. The attempt was to show polystyrene could be recycled into membranes. I think it would be a popular video if someone could show "amateurs" can accomplish making reasonably efficient ion exchange membranes.

[@Ritalinergic]

@@hubrisnaut Maybe it's just polystyrene sulfonate, not fully sulfonated. Or is it insoluble enough with some kind of treatment? I don't know exactly though. I've never thought it could be stable without crosslinking!

[@Ritalinergic]

@@hubrisnaut I found paper about partial sulfonation process. Is it what you've mentioned? DOI: 10.1016/S0376-7388(99)00258-6 10.1007/s10924-006-0018-3

[@ahuman2533]

I made some time ago sodium hydroxide with the elctrolysis of sodium chloride. As a membrane I used a clay pot and as electrodes I used carbon rods from 6volt carbon zinc batteries for the anode and just some random copper wire for the cathode. It worked, but it took 20 HOURS TO GET 7 GRAMS. Do yeah it wasnt really efficient or a good way to make it. Also I used a variable 300w power supply as my power supply. I limited the current to about 8amps when it got that high.

[@13deadghosts]

Yesss, a new Nurdrage video :)

[@AltoidJTP]

Was hoping to see this very video

[@joepiejaapie]

bipolar electrodialysis allows the production of both acid and base, but it is quite a complex process, would be awesome to see someone outside of a fancy comercial/university lab achieve this. Maybe as a next step after finding a anion exchange membrane?

[@jozefnovak7750]

Super! Thank you very much!

[@nunyabisnass1141]

Actuallllly, i had heard of a similar method of usimg a ceramic membrane, as ghetto as a flower pot for making nitric acid with eletrolysis. If your membrane is flouridated, then it should do just fine in that experimemt as well, thouse the silicone or epoxy used to seal it might not hold up for long.

[@vinnycordeiro]

2 NurdRage videos in a week? You are spoiling us, kind sir. :P

[@ZoonCrypticon]

Great video ! A question @7:18 - if you do this electrolysis with table salt NaCl why doesn´t it produce HCl at the anode to a lower extent, next to the O2 and H3O+ and Cl2 (Cl- and H3O+)?

[@NurdRage]

it does actually!, but as the pH gets lower and lower, chlorine formation becomes the dominant reaction.

[@Ewr42]

@@NurdRage so there's a way to make HCl and NaOH at the same time by using table salt and sodium bicarbonate?(assuming both sides somehow aren't able to combine back into salt and water, ofc) Or would it inevitably be a way to turn sodium bicarbonate into table salt and make a lot of chlorine, but with extra steps? (Ik my questions are pretty stupid, but what if you took them seriously anyway just as an exercise in basic chemistry logic to explain me what side reactions are instead of actually treating me like a clueless kid(wish I had that as an available excuse, but I'm just clueless) that's just curious about what happens when you mix every chemical In sight and zap it with electricity? Like, just for fun? Lol)

[@quinnbrown6382]

He is back!

[@aga5897]

Awesome - Very glad to see you back in Action ! Nafion looks like an extremely useful product. How does it tolerate organic solvents ? - i'll investigate this time instead of just asking dumb questions.

[@ajjdgj6tmgedvnmtmek]

Tolerates aprotic polar solvents well, and solvents like DMSO and DMF are commonly used.

[@joshuatanase3718]

4:10 When you calculate current density, are you including both the anode and the cathode, or just the cathode?

[@rex-up9ln]

You just need the overlapping area between them. So whichever is smaller will do

[@Shanjaq]

hi @NurdRage, have you thought about designing a "salt separator" which makes NaOH on one side and HCl on the other side? maybe pass the H and Cl through a quartz tube with a UV LED shining through it so the small amounts of gas (on-demand, or as it's produced in real-time so there's no buildup danger) combine in water vapor and precipitate as an acid? the idea of a contraption that electrically produces high PH on one side and low PH on the other side seems it could be useful

[@AppliedCryogenics]

Nurdrage has said "sodium" so many times, he's got it down to one syllable to save time.

[@voidedspace5510]

LOL

[@hanleypc]

I had a go at this, made a perspex assembly very similar to yours. Just having trouble getting it to syphon out of the cathode chamber, may have to mess around with my initial liquid levels.

[@arnecl9566]

Are you still gonne make your improved chlorate cell?

[@htomerif]

I've had a Nafion XL tab open in my browser for like 5 years. Ive wondered how accessible it is for amateurs. I was looking at making a flow battery but I've never been sure how stable the Nafion is long term.

[@ajjdgj6tmgedvnmtmek]

There's three major stressors to Nafion membranes: peroxides (which can be spontaneously formed in water-based electrochemistry), heat (rarely an issue, as even initial thermal decomp is well over 200 C), and mechanical stress (since the polymer is actually functionally very weak). Biggest issue in practice tends to be running too much current so that pressure across the membrane exceeds the fairly low pressure threshold for damage. In an amateur setup where you're running off a household power supply, though, this risk is going to be greatly reduced.

[@htomerif]

@@ajjdgj6tmgedvnmtmek By pressure damage, do you mean just gross total pressure difference across the membrane? Or can high currents destroy it from internal stresses? I was looking at creating a flow battery for high capacity power backup, and at the cell voltages I think I can get (i.e. 2 to 3 volts) I'm looking at at least a thousand amps. This is one of the things that shut my project down was I know the membrane is probably going to be the main contributor to the internal resistance of the cell. I'll have to look at their products again. Its been a few years.

[@lrmackmcbride7498]

There is a fourth thing that impacts longevity and in commercial cells is the limiting factor and that is impurities blocking the membrane. Certain cations get 'stuck'. This eventually reduces ion transmission and increases the voltage required. So with high purity salt a membrane will last a very long time.

[@olafgusten2671]

welcome back 😀

[@KapitanWalnut]

This has me thinking about alternative ways to perform direct air capture of carbon dioxide. Atmospheric CO2 reacts directly with aqueous hydroxide ions to form (bi)carbonate. This electrolytic way of regenerating the NaOH, releasing CO2 in the process, could be a cyclic way to capture CO2. The challenge of course is that O2 is also produced at the anode alongside CO2, so a separation step is necessary. I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts on this! What do you think about the feasibility of electrolytic DAC as apposed to the calcium caustic looping the most DAC methods use today?

[@Mr_nuke99]

Long time no see !!

[@MrZussow]

@NurdRage Anion exchange membranes (AEMs) are not too hard to make yourself. All you need is a UV light, thin HDPE/LDPE and Trimethylamine (TMA, try to get it in a Cl/Br form). Using the UV light to radicalise the polymer in a bath of TMA will make a simple AEM (frankly, grafted TMA-HDPE/LDPE are some of the best AEMs you can make). If you need papers to work from Newcastle University in the UK has quite a few papers. If you want to buy AEMs Fuelcellstore would be your best case

[@zafarhashmi2194]

Great work. Easy to understand. I am a researcher and I am interested in treating brackish water through an Electrodialysis system. But I don't know if I can make ion exchange membranes (Cation and anion) myself right there in the lab? Do you have any idea how can I do that? Dr. Zafar

[@makerslife]

I have been working on an idea to run an outboard on hydrogen sourced from sea water through electrolysis powered by a solar and battery. The issue I have is dealing with the chlorine, this set up seems to make it easier. Would you happen to have any suggestions or input into this idea? Thanks! P.s. I know the efficiency isn't going to be the greatest, but that's what iteration is for!

[@NurdRage]

there has been recent advances in seawater hydrogen. Rather than a membrane, they use special electrodes that promote oxygen generation rather than chlorine generation. So type "seawater hydrogen" in google and you can find the papers that detail it.

[@makerslife]

@NurdRage thanks for the insight! I will look that up. Not dealing with the chlorine would be a tremendous advantage.

[@TrickyDickyP]

Hi NurdGuy.. instead of the membrain could you just use an ion exchange resin to absorbe the stuff you dont want?

[@jtbmetaldesigns]

Sodium and potassium tetraborate both have a 9ish pH. I wonder if you can get boric acid to precipitate in the anolyte and I wonder if reaction will go to 100%

[@madansharma2700]

Any comments on carbonate/ bicarbonate ration in theanide compartment. Also, what is the O2/ CO2 ratio.

[@chemically_literate]

Hey, could you do a video about pinacol synthesis using nafion membrane and electrochemistry. I'd love to see that reaction.

[@cavendischw5885]

Good job. What kind of membrane you used?

[@SpitefulAZ]

Show us how to extract potassium metal and how to make flash powder.

[@agsystems8220]

How temperature stable is that stuff? Can it be exposed to sodium directly? I guess you couldn't use water, but could this be used to directly electrolyse sodium using methanol in oil? Basically, could do your magnesium process but using electrolysis rather than magnesium?

[@kimh9736]

Remember you promised to make a video about anionic membranes around 2396, so better start preparing!

[@9daywonda]

More vids from you my man!!!

[@a3b36a04]

Can we make a membrane by ironing the resin from water filters :)? Should be sulfonated polystyrene if sources are correct.

[@Unmannedair]

So I've been batting around the idea of making a carbon dioxide scrubber for my bedroom. I can't go to a space station, but maybe I can live like one. 😁 So I'm thinking that maybe I can diffuse calcium ions the same way you're diffusing sodium ions. I can use calcium carbonate as my base chemistry and pipe the CO2 from the decomposition out my window. Then I just have peristaltic pumps periodically drain my product back into an absorption chamber and then back into the reclaimer. Crazy idea?

[@DerDrako]

Beautifull.

[@eloygonzalez7044]

Great experiment! How many volts were needed to push that one amp through the Nafion membrane?

[@elliotwilliams7523]

Did you make the anode yourself? If so can you make a video on how you did it?

[@St0RM33]

he did check previous video

[@MuzikBike]

I assume this footage is also from about a decade ago given the old logo?

[@miklov]

Cool. Thank you!

[@JamesBakerOhio]

Would this procedure be applicable to calcium carbonate / bicarbonate?

[@unlockeduk]

to make acids i have seen terracotta pots used as a semi permeable membrane would that not work for sulphuric acid ?

[@coffeecuppepsi]

Please show us how to build a sodium hydroxide fuel cell :)

[@geeljireoomaar6140]

Hi Nurdrage, How many times did you use the Nafion? Thanks

[@thrdel]

Would the ion exchange method work for NaNO3 electrolysis ?

[@vickysilviana5033]

oh my god this is exactly what i did before, the difference is that i put the anode area into a bottle with a pipe on its seal, so that i can use chlorine it produces, and the pipe turned extremely smelly soon!

[@vickysilviana5033]

note: i used NaCl instead of NaHCO3

[@JehuMcSpooran]

What about the membranes from a reverse osmosis cartridge? What would they be useful for in electrochemistry?

[@CatboyChemicalSociety]

they will only let water through so nope.

[@RogerJonker]

Interesting! Thanks...