Making a Cardboard Model of the Marble Machine

I’m making a cardboard model of the new Marble Machine, as a quick way to try different design options. I got the idea from the book ”How Big Things get Done” where the Planning Professor Bent Flyvbjerg recommends cardboard modeling as a low-tech, fast and cheap planning tool for complex projects. I never knew planning could be this much fun, I always thought planning was boring and uncreative. Compared to sketching in CAD this was much faster and felt much more real. Scale 1/10 BOOM!
Support Wintergatan:
- Patreon ► / wintergatan
- KZbin membership ► bit.ly/4cQVM7C
Marble Machine Engineering Discord Server:
/ discord
Video edited By Martin and Hannes from the Trainerds KZbin Channel:
/ trainerds
-
PATREON ► / wintergatan
KZbin MEMBERSHIP ► bit.ly/4cQVM7C
WINTERGATAN RECORDS ► www.wintergatan.net/#/shop
SPOTIFY ► bit.ly/2oKxXWd
ITUNES ► apple.co/2ntWNsZ
ENGINEERING DISCORD ► / discord
COMMUNITY DISCORD ► / discord
-

[@sellicott]

Ah yes, Martin discovering CAD. Cardboard Aided Design.

[@ihaveaplan.ijustneedmoney.9777]

I swear I saw this exact same comment in the last couple of videos. 😂

[@8613247]

i was just about to give praise for not emphasizing switching from CAD to CAD. its good to explore options =)

[@Piplup7575]

cad my beloved :)

[@or-what]

Bad Obsession Motorsport approves

[@TheRealFreekBos]

Yes... in CAD we trust!

[@JJ-on3yv]

I love this channel is basically the documentation of a genius mind falling in and out of sanity.

[@marvinnicorode1209]

Which part of the cycle are we on right now?

[@DylanClarkSallee]

You could almost say he's... lost his marbles.

[@thomasbecker9676]

He's not a genius.

[@MouhcineBENMEZIANE]

@@marvinnicorode1209 definitely on the OUT phase right now. Really ! Cardboard over CAD -_-

[@luucdentoom6955]

@@thomasbecker9676 creative genius.

[@AdamSamson1991]

My favorite is version 1, with the back mechanical section more elevated. It would give the awe factor of those giant cathedral organs, mixed with the awesomeness of fighting a Megaman final boss :P.

[@keeperMLT]

He could consider putting a mirror behind him to further show the mechanisms.

[@Someguyhi]

One thing I find disappointing about committing to the 'big standard' vs. the 'small custom' is that those previous machines gave off a very cool "one man band" type of vibe that was magical and I feel that this will be lost in the scale of where things are headed. I loved the video of Martin touring the Siegfried's Mechanical Music Cabinet museum. It seemed that many of those devices also had that compact "one man band" feel.

[@sarinhighwind]

This big stage machine is like planning to fail on purpose sorta thing. The amount of money to move it and set it up will be insane. Vs ... something like MMX, you throw in a storage crate and fork lift it into the trailer and go. Someone drew him some cool fan art thing and he just got stuck on this model.

[@jdavidwhitfield4827]

Perhaps an 8x6 meter mirror at a 45deg angle over the whole assembly - like a cooking show!

[@BinExis]

Like live of Klaus Shulze.

[@panossavvaidis6086]

Oh sweet Jesus yes

[@venoltar]

So, out of curiosity, I found out that you could get a 2x3 array of mirrors that would get you to 8x6 meters and it would weigh in at just over 751kg. I didn't find out the price, I was too scared to look.

[@jdavidwhitfield4827]

@@venoltar mirrored polycarbonate, not glass

[@jeremygrecte]

It would be better with a giant screen displaying in live the machine seen by a cameraman who follows the marbles paths from close (as they did on the first marble machine). The people far in the audience won't see much of the machine movements at scale, and mirrors won't improve that. A moving camera and a large zoom would add more dynamism.

[@Particelomen]

You should make a form of a ∧ symbol below the podium in version 1, so that the conveyor belts and the ∧ symbol creates a large W for Wintergatan! 🌌🪐

[@smithcollins2k]

Something like this: \\_ 🕺_// \\ /Λ\ //

[@billkeithchannel]

Ohh, ahh! Hit the "W" key to show respect. W

[@oootoob]

Option 1 would mean that you'd be trapped in one spot for the entire concert unable to move around the stage. Most musicians want to move around especially if switching instruments, plus it's a bit boring for the audience to have the lead person rooted to one spot. Need to consider both the machine and the band together.

[@yuti3897]

Something I didn’t notice was how Martin was pacing around the stage when he was performing.

[@erikelenstrom9685]

He will be trapped no matter how it is built. He can't carry the instrument around like a guitarist can. So he is more like a drummer in that sense.

[@Alienguy500]

Build a trapdoor in the stage with a crash mat and ladder underneath

[@jessegeigerjr.7498]

What if the lever panel was divided in two so there was a gap down the center for audience interaction. Another option is to have the levers in the back but then the only in is through the front.

[@garydemonic]

Oftentimes, you have to choose two out of three things. In this case, performance space, machine form, and function all coincide with each other. Martin has picked form and function over space. If he chose space, he'd have to sacrifice either form or function. And I don't think he wants to do that.

[@TrentonBlessWrestlemania489]

Building a scale model in real life definitely helps with visualization. Having something in reality instead of just on a screen is always helpful!

[@Piplup7575]

absolutely! computers can help you plan, but the real thing helps you break out of abstraction and better understand :)

[@billkeithchannel]

GETS - General Electric Transportation Systems (now WABTEC) makes full scale models of their locomotives from cardboard and balsa wood. This way CAD mistakes can be found such as where what looks good on the computer screen doesn't actually fit into the allotted space in real life. Think of a door that has no room to physically open.

[@DavidHar]

What made the first marble machine magical to me was that you didn't know how it worked. It was one piece with endless gears and tracks that you wanted to explore and see from all angles to work out the journey of a marble. The modules take away some of that magic for me. And the most beautiful thing about the marble machine is the interaction between it and the band; it doesn't have to play all the instruments itself. It could be a single machine that plays one or two instruments very well, like the vibraphone and a rotary drum, or the vibraphone and the carousel instrument rotator. Just some thoughts. I've been following since 2017, keep up the great work!

[@doornbloem]

I was thinking the same. With these set-ups, the glaring question for me is - is there any role for a band at all, except perhaps being entirely dwarfed by the machine and Martin? In fact, what kind of artist (I'm deliberately omitting the word "Martin-fanboy" here) would enjoy performing together with this thing? They might as well play air guitar! I suppose you can have one or two band members on strings, and one or two on wind because those are not competing voices. So there is a place for band members, but they're obviously gonna need the right type of space to shine on the stage without being outshone by the machine.

[@landsten-]

If the idea is to go on tour with a world class drummer like Marcus Sjöberg, I don't really see the point of having the marble machine playing full size drums. I hope we end up with a machine simply focusing on the vibraphone and beautiful, reliable mechanics. I look forward to a Wintergatan tour featuring the Marble machine and not the other way around. As the MMX poster poster on my wall says: 'I believe!' 😊

[@ellieban]

Ooooh… now that’s a real “kill your darlings”. I hate it. I like it.

[@gregfraser4052]

Your comment raises the question: Is there still a "rest of the band"? Because Martin has close to never talked about how he sees the machine playing alongside all band members. For him, it's just obvious that the machine will be there, but I think it's something which is crucial to consider but is currently unanswered.

[@DavidWeinehall]

Yup. Same goes for the bass guitar. I mean, sure, it's super cool to have the machine play as many instruments as possible, but when touring I can't help but feel that the marble machine should be a band member, not *the* band member.

[@JaydenEricBeaudoin]

Commenting because this needs the upvotes to ensure that Martin sees it. The MM3 should be part of the show, and it's the focus in a lot of ways, but if it plays bass, vibraphone, and drums, plus Martin playing keyboards and glock (and maybe accordion?) then it does't leave a lot of room for other musicians. I guess it just begs the question "What does the band look like?" and "What does the MM3 need to do?"

[@gregfraser4052]

@@JaydenEricBeaudoin Precisely. The design requirements for the MM will change a lot, depending on how Martin defines it. "This machine replaces a full band". "This machine takes over for parts of a band". "This machine is just supporting more capable band members". "This machine does rhythm and melody, but only to a certain complexity". "This machine can replace any band member, but only plays un-dynamic music". etc... And while we're at it; it's the same with the design requirements depending on "This machine is good enough to record an album" and "This machine is good enough to go on a world tour". Apart from the music-creation core, those two versions would differ wildly in terms of build robustness, repairability, mobility, flexibility, economic viability, etc. Trying to build the ultimate does-everything-and-can-go-everywhere-version at this point in time feels somewhat futile to me. I DO like the process Martin is going through at the moment. But he seems to still miss out some very fundamental definitions about what this machine is meant to be.

[@MrPlaneCrashers]

I honestly prefer the first setup, with the wheels and huygen drive behind you, I think it's the most cohesive option. Yes, some parts will be a little bit more hidden, but I don't think you can avoid some parts being less visible from certain angles.

[@_ata_3]

And you still can look at them. It's not that they aren't visible anymore.

[@brianj.841]

I agree, I like the symmetry; my concern it over-loading yourself - two keyboards and the controls. Just in case, maybe ensure there is enough space for two, or angle the keyboards wider?

[@DTechNation]

Not to mention the gears spinning provides an amazing backdrop for Martin to stand in front of. don't forget people will focus on you up there too and the turning mechanics in the background is so steampunk cool.

[@FranNDR]

Also I guess that setup will improve the quality of the sound from the instruments for the audience while reducing the mechanical noise at the back

[@thorwaldjohanson2526]

There could be a safety concern with the wheels directly behind him.

[@vitorrizzato9536]

At this point, I’m not here just for the machine anymore. The journey of Martim learning about design and project management is one of the best-documented materials for others to learn from his mistakes over all these years.

[@sarinhighwind]

But he hasn't learned anything....

[@MrBluelightzero]

My grandkids will love your show.

[@DominusFeles]

I see what you did there 😂

[@LadyTink]

I'm just gonna say, a huge part of the original machine, was it's compactness. Plus of course, I love the "click" sound of the levers as you muted and turned on insturments. I also loved the ability to just stop the machine, and manually drop marbless... also also, I loved the whole "speed up slowdown" part oft he original song... Out of all of that, the compactness, and the lever sounds were my fav

[@TheRaph290]

one thing that i liked in the mmx is the mysterious factor, there was so much stuff that was semi invisible (as all things were imbricated), so it felt like an iceberg.

[@psgp]

Marty: Hey Doc, what's that? Doc Brown: (shows an detailed model) It's a city model, I havn't enough time for details.

[@PhantomPanic]

An detailed?

[@schoktra]

Doc Brown: We need 1.21 JiggaMarbles!

[@MrTurboturbine]

"I haven't had time to build it to scale or paint it!"

[@Ho55Delux]

best comment ever

[@maxadrums]

I really dig version 1! The only thing that is "missing" in it for me, is that previous marble machines felt like YOU were playing them, whereas here it feels a lot more like you're CONTROLLING them. It's a bit like you're trapped in a circle in the back, and being a director. I'd love to move you forward somehow. Amazing!

[@JJTheDev]

maybe adding more visible wires from the center control thing to the wheels/marble droppers would help with that, like a literal web of control

[@SiberCatLP]

That actually sounds amazing! Martin low and in the front, with his back to the crowd. Instruments on either side, bordered with *four* marble conveyors. The mechanical parts towering high above everything in the back.

[@TheDarkSaplings]

10:14 I like the first version best. 🤗🤗 11:23 I think it became more messy.

[@SyzygyNoon]

Just remember, Martin, with all those moving parts around you, _NO CAPES!_

[@YogiTheBearMan]

What about neckties?

[@SyzygyNoon]

@@YogiTheBearMan Those are fine, but you have to glue them down.

[@mathijs58]

I would come and watch this, even if Martin only played "Bogabogaboga"

[@pumpkinlord444]

We just care about the vibraphone, really get a human to play drums and base... that's your actual MVP

[@jenss.8706]

V-Version looked good! One thing with the spinning flywheels behind you: there should probably be a plexiglass pane (or something) between you and the wheels in case you slip. Or the mechanics are fare enough away or high up.

[@dawgma]

To date I haven't heard him discuss in depth any safety considerations regarding these flywheels on stage.. these are very dangerous and very heavy and not all venues are going to want these spinning on their stage in any capacity. If the machine fails (and you *must* assume it could) these wheels pose incredible danger to the audience or anyone on or off stage.. any direction you can think of they will be terribly destructive if they ever break free. And even if you have them spinning in a certain direction, say, towards a barricade, there is no guarantee that if a failure happens that it doesn't get deflected in some unexpected direction. I'd like to know if these failure scenarios have been considered in any meaningful capacity..

[@CristianKirk]

I thought we were back on track with the original machine design.

[@prebenkul]

If you decide to make a BIG machine, you really have to think about how you are going to transport it all, Like if you want to go on a world tour, you'd need like a personal cargo plane for your machine. The reason the small version is so good, is that while it sacrifices some points, it's very easy to transport, doesn't take up too much space. He also have to think about, where do his band play? if this take up the entire stage, they have no place to play. With the small machine, it could be in the background, while the band plays around it, in my opinion, that feels the best.

[@magicksilver4444]

Back when mmx failed I understood that the band was not coming back, who wants to play with something like this? The bassline and drums are already taken care of and martin wants to personally play the glockenspiel…

[@jackradzelovage6961]

very few stages are only 5m wide tho. i think hes just assuming shipping container transport is the only way at this point

[@solsang]

The old machine was not that easy to transport, there is fragility in the complexity, while a modular machine can be much easier to transport in individual boxes

[@constantinosschinas4503]

I don't think there is a band anymore. Do you think that all these people will wait for Martin 20 years so that he finishes(?) the machine, start rehearsing, then go on a world tour?

[@EarlHare]

Martin is basically discovering the entire design process in reverse and I feel privileged to have been on this journey with him.

[@NotDrDre]

Cardboard Martin needs his own channel

[@DovydasNorkunas]

For sure, genius idea:Dd Like tiny chef

[@thehorriblebright]

As long as there is large wheels moving against each other with planetary gears on one of them. The side view of mmx was so beautiful.

[@Picaxe45]

The V shape (first iteration) is from my POV the best solution and the shape give a really good vibe and a stunning view. since i follow you, I want to see the version 1 cause it the one tou seem to love the most and this machine is a big part of your life so give this machine all the love you have to offer !

[@craftedbyorre]

Seeing people embrace using cardboard models after having studied product design myself makes me very happy

[@Tech_Marauder]

Same

[@juancarlosmarcos7401]

Martin, think about lines and movement. One of the coolest things about the Marble Machine was that anyone, regardless of their knowledge about physics or music, could understand how the machine worked just by looking at how the marbles moved through all the machine parts. Big lines make people focus on those directions, so you could use lines and marble movement to guide the public through the show. That V shape is amazing, I love it, but I think you could improve it by adding interesting elements at the beginning or at the end of the conveyor belt lines.

[@lautreamontg]

I think looking into tour accounts of bands that tour with instruments like grand pianos or full size concert harps would be highly illuminating for this project right now.

[@crywolfe210]

Looking more and more like that old “pipe dream” animation from decades ago.

[@8bitarmory846]

it's actually part of a DVD set if you weren't aware - Animusic. There's also a sequel which includes a second version of the song

[@Particulator]

I think it's Martin's inspirational source that sparked the whole thing. He mentioned Animusic several times over the years.

[@RandStuffOfficial]

@@Particulator Definitely. I remember thinking of the "pipe dream" animation the second I watched the first MM video.

[@Simalacrum]

I totally get this change in design principle - I'm a photography student and recently got myself a portable printer that allows me to quickly produce physical versions of my photos to experiment with, and having a physical object to manipulate in space DRAMATICALLY changes how exactly I use and perceive my photography - I can certainly imagine the same principle for designing the Marble Machine!

[@lamincra9088]

Cardboard models are fine for a first glance but you will see that the mechanics will pose big constraints on your placement of the parts. Don't forget function before form. Also consider that with the symmetrically model you are somewhat locking yourself in on the podium. In my experience concerts live from the fact that the performer can move on the stage to claim it. Like operating the machine, and then having it perform in the background while you take the front stage with a mind blowing guitar solo etc.

[@BloomThat]

He could open a path in the middle of the control panel with steps going down so he can come out the front.

[@SukacitaYeremia]

Agreed. If any way possible, it would be great for that formation if the control panel can be flipped up and out of the way like a pub/bar table and the marble trajectory and catchers adjusted to catch closer to the instruments so Martin could move out of the cockpit forward to the front of the machine. And maybe do some old school Marble machine solo drops? But that's probably just a bonus since he already has instruments in the cockpit.

[@LeeSmith-cf1vo]

Actually, this is potentially a safety critical point - Martin should have a way to get out quickly in an emergency!

[@scaredyfish]

The Bowden cable design is pretty flexible in this regard. The main concern I have is two programming wheels - they will be a big challenge to keep in sync, while a single programming wheel will never have that problem.

[@lamincra9088]

@@scaredyfish Bowden cables are fine for triggering stuff. But the power input from the flywheel needs to be applied to the programming wheels which requires a fixed connection or a sufficient joint. In both cases the degrees of freedom how the flywheel and programming wheels can be placed are decreased.

[@ZeldaNerd31415]

I personally think that V 1 is the most interesting. It seems like the most fun. Of course there will be iterations. Of course it isn’t good to commit this instant, but it seems like the funnest option right now. The most visually interesting. No matter what you end up doing though, Martin, I (and possibly we) believe in you and trust what you end up making. I am a huge fan of this project and I love where it’s going. Thank you for being the one who made every engineer’s childhood dream come to life!

[@arielkoo]

man, run to that museum where the first machine is and spend some time thinking WHY you are destroying that beautiful (and unrepeatable until now) idea you once had.

[@osculant]

I was actually thinking something very similar, he needs to go back to the speelklok museum for inspiration. The biggest machine there that was meant to be portable was like the size of a small camper at best. And those were just designed to be wheeled around, not constantly disassembled and reassembled and flown thousands of miles on planes and trucks.

[@Troglobitten]

This doesnt have the magic of the original marble machine or the MMX.

[@mirkopg69]

1 steps forward and 2 backwards 😮

[@HazmatB]

Long time watcher, first time commenter. Martin, I think you severely under weighted the value of smaller instruments! A huge part of the cool factor of the MMX was it's compact, dense structure. It resembled a "skeleton clock"! By introducing full size instruments, you necessarily lose that density. Similarly, by making the machine too-modular will have the same effect. I think you also didn't take into account the added complexity of using larger instruments! We've seen this already, for example, having to introduce larger marbles to allow louder drum hits). Love your work!

[@IsaacDaBoatSloth]

petition for all wintergatan videos after the marble machine to just be Martin playing with cardboard

[@MichaelBakula]

Does the programming wheel have to be horizontal? it would seem that you might have more options for simple mechanical interconnections with a vertical axis.

[@jackradzelovage6961]

horizontal lets you see the spokes so its probably an aesthetic choice. good thought tho!

[@AlanVelaRules]

This is such a good idea !!!!!

[@jeremymercer5655]

I would try an arrangement with a single programming wheel in the center (angled to the audience 45 deg) and then have the mechanism on the side of the wheel like on mmx. I think you could still have it feed marbles to a left and right side of the stage and keep drums separate from the vibraphone. So instead of two separate machines feeding inward, you have one central machine that feeds outward.

[@markedis5902]

When you’re thinking how big to make it, consider the practicalities of touring with it. You can’t play it if it won’t fit through the door or you can’t lift it

[@jimjohn2652]

Nothings screams safety like having two big heavy flywheels centimeters behind you

[@StephanAhonen]

Martin: "I've finally learned that i need to avoid scope creep, and I need to start small and iterate toward my goals" Also Martin: "I've expanded the scope of this project despite not having produced a single tangible iterative step toward even my previous ambitions"

[@AbrahamLure]

Him declaring his MVP cannot be any smaller was the nail in the coffin for me. What the hell...

[@Zolbat]

"I want this machine to play really tight music with millisecond accuracy" - "let's make a huge modular, easily detachable stage out of it that has to be mechanically linked to sync the modules"

[@senjox]

As much as the orchestra model is impressive to look at, it takes away the very thing that made this project interesting: the machine. I want to look and listen to a machine that plays itself, not a whole bunch of instruments put together to look nice in a stage. I understand the music part has become more and more important over the years but I miss the MMX design approach. Maybe a bit wider and taller than the MMX, using more space on the lower half to put as much distance between the drums and the xylo/glock and keeping as compact as can be without compromise would do the thing. Anyways keep working on it and I'm sure you'll find the formula that works best

[@jamesmoore5603]

I can't help but think the fumble at the end was providing a foreshadowing design hint about the challenges of assembling the final product by the roadies.

[@jackradzelovage6961]

and yet 40 ft tall traveling carnival rides can be set up in a few hours by two people. if its designed to be moved, it can be done.

[@rayrobert100]

9:15 : thanks for really stating all of that out for us Martin. I have to say I was really frustrated and worried with the new "huge machine" approach, because it seemed really counter-intuitive with everything you had been saying for a couple years. But just having you explain that you're trying to make something you can have fun making is really reassuring. It might sound obvious and trivial but I think it's the first time you've actually stated that out. And I feel like we, as viewers, really needed to hear that.

[@hyfy-tr2jy]

oh dear....this brings to light one HUGE issue not being talked about...at this scale the marbles will need to be the size of billiard balls...if not they will be invisible to the audience unless you are in the front row

[@EmberCitrine]

This is why the fingers were such a huge deal to martin early on in mmx design.

[@Mainyehc]

They would always be very small… Martin should really make a machine on the same scale as the other two and have cameras strategically placed and a decent live video editor coordinating projections and screens. He wants to translate something fit for KZbin into a live setting and there’s no other sensible way of doing it. 🤷‍♂️

[@winojoosten183]

Shiny marbles maybe? Put a bright light on them and let 'em twinkle

[@iammoremeand2]

yeah using shiny marbles should do the trick

[@KanayaMaryam52]

Glow in the dark marbles with black light lighting.

[@jeremygrecte]

More volume, more weight, more time to assemble and disassemble,... are you sure you will still be able to do a World Tour with this huge machine ? How will you transport all of this ? I hope you haven't forgotten the logistics that hide behind the requirement of being able to do a world tour !

[@Twmpa]

Probably the most informative episode I have seen yet where the finished design of MM3 is explored. You can have all the technology you like but sometimes there really is no alternative to a physical model. Personally, I would go with option 1 all day long. It has good symmetry with those conveyors which can be used to frame yourself and the machinery and it probably makes the most sense from a technical perspective to have the drive machinery in the centre of the whole machine. The one alteration I would make is to stand yourself lower and have the drive machinery on a platform so it is visible above and behind you.

[@user-py1lr1hr9s]

I'm so glad to hear you say the machine has to be something you want to play with. You've needed a principle to push back against 'smaller, simpler, and more efficient'. You want the path between 'unmanageable chaos' and 'boring'. One idea: you might try mixing the return paths from the instruments to the conveyor ramps. Marbles that come down on the left through the drum kit could go up on the right by the vibraphone and guitar. You can build a whole system to make sure there are enough marbles on both sides. Do a weighted decision between the additional complexity and the additional coolness.

[@sean_miller]

The only way a machine this size is even remotely feasible with Martin's "tight music" requirement is if gets rid of his dumbest design requirement: no electronics.

[@br52685]

I guess he’s still in the “brainstorming” mode where there are “no bad ideas.” But yeah, this (mechanical powered) is no way feasible

[@yone7965]

Version 1 for sure!

[@latschoDiewes]

I personally think that putting the mechanics behind you in the center actually puts the most focus on them. They would be the heart of the machine that is spinning behind you. Much like a clockwork.

[@billkeithchannel]

That camera angle from the back it looks like a giant cervix with Fallopian tubes. The birth of marble made music.

[@wgm-en2gx]

I doubt this machine will ever be completed. In my opinion, throwing out the X design and going completely a different way with many many more complications is a recipe for failure. Iterative development never starts over. You fix what you did previously and build upon it. This is just crazy. I'll be glad to eat my words and attend the tour if it comes to the US.

[@jackradzelovage6961]

if the old design was put together in such a way that it cant be fixed without 100% teardown and rework, why wouldnt he restart it?

[@gregfraser4052]

I think I agree. He's currently stuck on his own limitation of "this machine needs to do all these things, otherwise I'm not interested". I've said it before: He's never managed to create a properly working machine, with more basic functionality, so why would now a more complex machine suddenly become viable? IMO he should drop the "world tour" ambition and aim at a working MMX-level machine, so he can record that album. If that ever succeeds, then iterate from there.

[@jackradzelovage6961]

@@gregfraser4052 because he didnt plan the other machines. he just assembled stuff and tried to force it to happen. like the videos where he was explaining that the random noise created by his previous machines just operating was plenty loud enough to be picked up by the instrument mics and kinda ruin the sound quality. you cant just undo that from an existing design without complete teardown. now that hes taking things like that into account early on in the planning stage where it shouldve happened before, he wont have to deal with a fully assembled machine in 3 years being inherently flawed and unfixable. so why are you faulting him for planning and catching issues before theyre permanent?

[@wgm-en2gx]

​@@gregfraser4052I think his constraints are misguided too. He wants "tight" music and I get why. But IMO, there is character in any performance that isn't computerized. If you want the ultimate "tight" music, forgot marbles. They are the wrong tool. Do something like Mechbass (search KZbin for "MechBass - Hysteria") and use a computer. Again IMO, music that is too "tight" is soulless (like much of today's pop music). Human musicians have slight variances in their performance and that is why you see live performances. I think they got the MMX working well enough to play decent music.

[@scaredyfish]

Iterative development doesn't mean sticking with a form factor that doesn't work. There's plenty of design knowledge that's coming over from MMX, but unlike code, you can't just edit things in the middle of a physical machine.

[@martinrusten3979]

Its ridiculus. You should go with the formfactor as the pervious versions and create a machine for the history books. Your current path/machine wil go straight to the landfill or in best case the recycling plant

[@deanh6995]

Martin, I've been following you for a long time and have enjoyed watching this journey of yours unfold. Your sense of "good enough" is clearly levels higher than most of us. I hope and pray that you ultimately find happiness and joy with the end result. But I also believe you'd discover just as much (or more) by just building something and not worrying how it looks or how consistent it plays. We only have a finite timeline on this rock and you might as well spend as much of it as possible playing and performing. We don't expect perfection from you. We just want to hear you create and play beautiful music that stirs the soul. You already have the ingredients necessary to achieve that. Why fuddle around? While I admire your skills and engineering reach, I'm starting to get lost in the timeline. Call it growing impatient, but it's a human trait that I continue to struggle with. You haven't lost me yet...but I'm starting to grow weary with respect to whether or not you will ever achieve a working machine (with its faults) that can play on a stage and make so many others around you just as happy? Most of us don't care if the machine spits out an odd marble here or there, or requires a swift slap on one section every now and then to unjam a channel. Like human nature, it will have faults...and we will embrace those just as much as the parts that work flawlessly. Please don't get lost in the forest. Fly over it.

[@eLBehmo]

That flywheel placement at the most dangerous position right behind Martin looks like pure action!

[@PabloEdvardo]

martin, an MVP isn't about what you want to use, it's about minimal viability to execute aspects of the design that need to be tested. a perfect example is how many times on MMX you would pick a new design and then immediately replicate it 20+ times for every channel, before learning something about it that required another re-design, which you could have learned with a single channel the idea is you build an MVP e.g. one track programming wheel, one marble lane, one marble drop, etc. and you validate out your design assumptions before proceeding to further complexity. If you try to go complex before validating your BASIC assumptions, then the cost of fixing those issues goes way up (again... MMX...)

[@PabloEdvardo]

the idea is you are validating and testing design iterations along the way, in small increments, so that you are constantly getting feedback on whether you're making the right decisions an MVP doesn't necessarily become part of the final design, but it will inform your design requirements

[@unspi554]

That's exactly it ! I searched for this comment ^^.

[@IgnWombat]

This idea is a lot of fun, and also useful for getting a perspective on how the final product should look like!

[@solsang]

Really good to have the moving wheels behind Martin, so even closeup on Martin playing will have interesting movement and the feel of the machine being active

[@Meatpie007]

The marble machine needs to be one unit

[@lktdlk]

The setup should look like a W from above 6:27

[@secondengineer9814]

I think you should consider going back to the condensed drums. Having a smaller form factor for the marble machine would be really great imo

[@TheDnmrtn]

I had a couple of thoughts I wanted to share. 1. Could include the rest of the band as well in the stage designe 2. The stage collabaration makes live music fun 3. Talk with some experienced stage designers and gather some distilled knowledge. 4. Make a fun machine! (Also one you can "play" and not just "controll")

[@marcingrzybowski1764]

You should create a scale model of old machines to easly visualize the scale of new designs.

[@frozenrocketfuel5762]

I think I am slowly warming up to the idea but how on earth is that going to be economic to travel with?

[@ANDERU4YOU]

Economic is relative for a touring musical act. Nine Inch Nails used to have TWO massive stage-wide curved LED screens that could move up and down, it was a really sick setup, I think the last tour they had it on was Tension 2013, so check a video of it out sometime to see just how crazy it was

[@thomasbecker9676]

It's never going to travel, because it will never be finished.

[@jackradzelovage6961]

@@thomasbecker9676 do you have anything positive to say or just this over and over and over again?

[@thomasbecker9676]

@@jackradzelovage6961 Will you continue to simp for Marty?

[@Jrakula10]

"instead of spending hours in cad" im going to spend hours with cardboard

[@multiarray2320]

cardboard aided design ;)

[@jackradzelovage6961]

he gleaned way more about the final design from that than all the hours spent in cad so far

[@Caesim9]

I'd say the thing is that Martin has gotten really good with designing small detailed parts in CAD but has not as much experience making simple, engaging macro models. For example the fly wheels, I can picture spending too much time modeling the cutouts, connecting the contraints of the holder with the wheel etc. Something that he probably in a short time with cardboard.

[@nekhumonta]

Why do you need two programming wheels?

[@jackradzelovage6961]

@@Caesim9 they also dont have to be mathematically perfect to get an idea of overall silhouette

[@jameshansen1903]

Just remember that the one-man-band is the performer at the heart of your machine. The clockwork is functional decoration for the performer operating it, not the other way around. I vote you put yourself front and center with the clockwork behind you.

[@jaumerovirabaurier2119]

I feel like the worst thing that can happen is that he finishes the machine.❤ Loving the process

[@empty9360]

I have the feeling the first version of the marble machine will be the only version that actually played some songs.

[@solsang]

See the mmx live preformance at the mechanical museum, it was a nightmare to get to work and almost impossible to play, making it more spread out makes it much easier to build and repair

[@robadobdob]

The best part of the original machine was that it worked so well _in spite_ of its cobbled-together functionality.

[@justinnaramor6050]

@@robadobdob Um, no. You clearly are unaware. That first machine did not at all "work so well". That first video was highly edited making it sound perfect. I'm serious... this entire community desperately needs to know this... they need to stop acting like that first machine "worked so well" when it did not in reality.

[@robadobdob]

@@justinnaramor6050 I haven’t followed it as closely as others clearly have. I lost interest ages ago.

[@justinnaramor6050]

@@robadobdob Oh, I see. I understand. I'm not nearly as interested in it as I once was either. Not because I feel the project is going down hill or something, but simply because there are other things I enjoy listening to and doing on the internet; decided not to just keep waiting for a Wintergatan video every single week and letting that be my focus. I'm still certainly wanting to at least see where the project goes (even if that means abandoning it, for any reason whatsoever), and I do check up on it once in a while.

[@TheStickCollector]

Impressive work

[@Igor-dd7ru]

Looks like a "ancient instrument that plays yourself" in a entire building

[@vabajaba]

I love the rollercoaster of design process we've been through with you over the years. The existential questions on what you want to do and why and then optimizing it in such way it's still possible, but exciting enough to finish are relatable.

[@pedro16797]

What about having the mechanics in front of your legs in version 1? Where you placed Wilson at the end, ironically. It may hide your pumping action but your torso can convey the energy you are putting in without explicitly showing the legs

[@Paralda]

I like this a lot. I also think that it wouldn't be too much of a sin for the machine to be powered by a motor, considering how large it's getting.

[@Exodus1337]

Don't forgot negative space, you need to have some room to have FUN, hop around and feel the crowd! Right now it looks like you are enclosing yourself too much, this could be a restriction. And it feels like you would be "hiding" a bit behind your machine. Maybe ask yourself some of these questions: What are the stage restrictions? How much space is available usually? What does the viewer see? What's their POV? Can you work with viewers perspective and see, if you can make space between the individual components without limiting the viewing pleasure? And don't forget, that the crowd won't have a bird's eye view. They will be more or less straight in front or even slightly below stage level.

[@Z0M8I3D]

the "flying V" configuration feels like a stadium from the view point we had with the camera, kinda kool

[@dataandroid2036]

Ok, das Modell wird jetzt ein Jahr entwickelt und dann zwei Jahre lang verändert und in 20 Jahren haben wir vergessen was wir hier wollen. Grüße

[@David-px5lr]

honestly, i cant be fucked with Martin and this channel anymore... I have been a long time watcher, but dude just keeps changing his vision. The original machine was the best, it was unique. Now it seems Martin is happy with an assembly line of independent parts covering a whole stage, instead of the all in one original masterpiece he was planning on completing, and which his community has been wanting him to complete. What a fall from grace!!!!!

[@supperenet9090]

I'll have grandchildren by the time this finishes

[@thomasbecker9676]

It will never finish.

[@Count2Two2Times]

Neither will you 😮😂​@@thomasbecker9676

[@heytomgeorge]

Martin, If you use a Huygen drive and an air governor, the person providing the power doesn't need that much training. For the world tour, you can use audience members to drive the machine, which means you aren't limited to one person's power, or, if you wanted, separate machines could have separate power sources.

[@John_Weiss]

Or give the weights a taller range-of-fall, creating a sort of "Tower of Power," that can be charged and then left to run.

[@Thardoc]

Version 1 is a clear winner for me, Version 2 feel unbalanced and Version 3 doesn't feel ambitious Finding a way that shows off the mechanics a little more with version 1 aesthetic sounds like the sweet spot

[@deezwaffles558]

Martin if you are making a "control panel" sort of area use pneumatics! Unless there's a reason you don't already

[@thomasbecker9676]

Pneumatics*

[@deezwaffles558]

@@thomasbecker9676 shoot thank you

[@Zolbat]

Also, use pneumatics for triggering all the instruments, it's much more flexible. And use a large slab of marble so it can still be called the marble machine

[@deezwaffles558]

@@Zolbat LOL

[@constantinosschinas4503]

​@@Zolbatlol lol

[@arielkoo]

Over time, those paper models will evolve and become in something that will punch you in the face.

[@bandaid007jl]

I've been watching since a few months into MMX, I know for Martin he wants to complete the new marble machine but for me Its about the journey not the destination. I hope after the new MM is built Martin will take what he leaned and create something new 🤖

[@ellieban]

Martin is absolutely right on the MVP. With a huge ambitious and modular project like this, it’s more like he needs to make one mvp for each module, and he’s already doing that.

[@varlunmulland3992]

Oh good, now he can spend 5 years making the cardboard model perfect

[@MisterIkkus]

And then scrap the entire thing as he enters a new design paradigm.

[@Oxtorayk]

i just wanted a new album :(

[@codemonkey2k5]

Martin, I am curious, what does the rest of your band think of your plans? I am sure they support you, but you've never mentioned them in any of your videos. I'd love to get to know more about their rolls in your music journey.

[@AbrahamLure]

I don't think he has a band any more

[@henrikd.8818]

I just realized how his design has moved away from band friendly instrument to one man band machine

[@vincentvanhelden6186]

Computer said no. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. MVP sounds good. Doesn't have to be perfect, just has to be fun.

[@alexchan3287]

The best thing is that each functional part is separated into its own individual module. We just need to figure out a flexible interface to integrate the modules together, then the machine can be arranged into whatever arrangement best suited for the venue.

[@Rocket248]

YESS YOUR MY CHILDHOOD KZbinR WISH U THE BEST!!!

[@alastair3529]

Martin, the world’s best procrastinator 😂

[@fromclicktoclickbeautifulp473]

SPOT ON. Even when he as done the job he set for himself, he acts like he didn't do anything. The MMX is finished way is he playing with cardboard. Totally lost his marbles.

[@maxmuller445]

I feel like the machine should be "one thing". When it's spread out it looses a bit of its magic. But i agree, the displayed large gears look great. maybe they could be emerging from the side of the machine like petals from a flower?

[@anttitenhunen4725]

The first model is definitely the winner! It looks great and interesting!

[@electronicsandmusic2077]

1k in 5 minutes

[@rikschaaf]

I think the design from 11:32 is better than the one from 11:45, because having 2 flywheels spinning fast so dangerously close to you might not be the best idea, especially since you don't really have a way out of there. 11:35 is foreshadowing for that.

[@KevinHorecka]

I think the thing I don't like about your favorite design is it doesn't feel like it implies the cause and effect that's happening. Like showing how you are controlling the machine. The asymmetry of having the machine in front of you and seeing it from the side always felt like a good aesthetic.

[@mapsofbeing5937]

v1 is absolutely amazing, it feels inspiring from all angles, and it feels integrated as a single machine I'm sure that design direction would inspire you as you keep working, it's got my vote