Making a Purpose-Filled RPG World

In general, but especially if you're playing in a medieval-authentic or any other kind of pre-modern culture setting, it's very important that the metaphysics of the world you create has to make it that what you choose MATTERS.
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[@marvalice3455]

Apocalypse literally means revelation. There is a specific verse that says, but this is also the implication throughout, that "the pieces of the world will be melted, and all things the secrets of the world will be revealed", apocalypse is when all that was secret becomes public. When there is nowhere left for chaos to hide.

[@aesculetum]

Tolkien would be proud of this video. The PoMo mentality is so deeply rooted in people's minds these days. I have tried to explain what was said in this video to people, but they cannot even imagine it; it is alien to them, even anathema to their very beings and they reject it strongly in these cases. Great video!

[@RPGPundit]

Thank you, that's high praise. Spread the word, share the video!

[@LeeroyPorkins]

Meatball is essential for RPGs

[@adamwelch4336]

Meatball is a 100 challenge rating monster! 🐈

[@RPGPundit]

Spread the word, share meatball's video!

[@BlameMaxSand]

So, I like the Grim Dark genre, nihilism aside, because YES fighting for good is a sucker's bet in warhammer, however, there is beauty in fighting the good fight even when its a lost cause. I feel the 40k version does some of this concept better than Fantasy, however, because the God Emperor CLEARLY holds actual power, can perform miracles, give prophecy and keeps the basically lighthouse used to navigate the universe alive. He acts as the Benevolent Monotheist God of the setting, tho one who is at a low point of his power, but still creating that hope that, maybe all is not lost. Chaos is more powerful, and all hope SEEMS lost to the average grunt on the ground, but perhaps the Emperor will Stand up off the Golden Throne, and turn the tide of battle.

[@josephskiles]

Your false emperor will be your undoing, AVE DOMINUS NOX!

[@sapphiredragon5152]

"...and you see what I've got here is the Tome of Corruption" points to Meatball

[@RPGPundit]

Spread the meatball, share the video!

[@crapphone7744]

Yay, Meatball! notice that the minute you mentioned the Tome of corruption, Meatball sat down right in front of it.

[@RPGPundit]

Yes, she has strong opinions.

[@crapphone7744]

@@RPGPundit cats are often wrong but never uncertain.

[@kevinwilson8077]

When designing a world, I like to think about motivations (alignment) as a set of concentric circles, with the most important motivations in the center. This applies to characters, NPCs, organizations, and even nations. What is at the center is what you would prioritize above all else. Is it family, faith, tribe, nation, self, power, fame, fortune? Other concerns exist on further outlying circles, if at all. For example, if faith is at the center, one might expect that actor to sacrifice themselves for the good of the "church". If self is at the center, then that NPC might let a family member die if it meant saving their own skin. Understanding how the majority of the world sees this choice goes along way toward understanding the "tone" of the world. If nearly everyone would put "self" at the center of their alignment, then you would be playing in a cut-throat "evil" dog-eat-dog world. If it is a world dominated by dragons who prize "fortune" above all else, then it would have a different, but equally bleak tone. In a world where "fame" is prized over most other motivations, you might get something similar to the way culture works today where victimhood and attention are prized most. Answering these questions I believe does the most to set the "tone" of the world, and only where "family, faith, nation, or tribe" are most prized can you call the overall tone "good".

[@itsallfunandgames723]

One could probably find quotes in earlier Warhammer Fantasy that Chaos is going to win, but I remember as a kid that's not really how it was presented. It got more edgelord and Flanderized as time went on, but originally it came across as more of an anti-utopian message. You will forever have to work to resist darkness, the job will never be done, but part of the lore was civilized races beat Chaos twice. I wouldn't have liked WFRP if it had a Flanderized 1500s Catholic worldview either, I just enjoyed it not trying to be so definitive. I can't stand WFRP 2nd ed. because it got so edgelord and into the "mud and blood" Medieval stereotypes, even though it has the improved rules. Everyone was deformed and carried around parchment scrolls because they decided no one had invented paper by the year 2,500. GW got allergic to the slightest hint of intelligent world building after the 90s.

[@iratevagabond204]

It's even more apparent by the dismissal of the results of Storm of Chaos and adoption of the End Times, followed by Age of Sigmar. They have an obsession with destroying their setting in anime-like flair.

[@attentionspanlabs]

There was nothing resembling Ned Flanders in 16th century Catholic Europe. What are you talking about?

[@iratevagabond204]

@@attentionspanlabs Was that a joke?

[@attentionspanlabs]

@@iratevagabond204 no. Read the op. That's what Flanderized means. Nothing in the medieval Catholic worldview can be called Flanderized, so I can't imagine what he's talking about.

[@iratevagabond204]

@@attentionspanlabs Flanderize just means to exaggerate/butcher something. Also, if you consult TvTropes, it specifically list several ways he evolved to represent every negative stereotype of Christians. He was talking about how he'd dislike it if they had done something like create a parody religion based on Catholicism in the worse possible light, as a counterpart to his point about them Flanderizing the Grimmdark setting of WHF and turning it into a nihilistic dumpsterfire. I don't know, it makes sense to me; at least if I read it right. . .

[@paddysparlor]

I think Call of Cthulhu is best run when the heroes think they’re going to win. Even if it only buys time. But I also usually only ever run a one shot with people who have never played in the setting type before. Especially if they’re not familiar with the content. But I love to hear the thoughts.

[@KopperNeoman]

It's best run when winning is actually possible. The despair of cosmic horror is all the more real when the possibility of being Old Man Henderson dangles just out of your reach.

[@jemm113]

Been greatly enjoying our 1973 Miami CoC escapades with guns, drugs, and cars. The focus on a twisted cultish Disney is also been a great joy to play against and the trappings of the setting are equally lighthearted, dark, and manic. A cartel drug lord, a British Vietnam veteran, an overly-buff accountant, and a Stanford computer science professor VS The Walt Disney Company. Absolute chaos, absolute mayhem, absolute dread, and absolute camp. We just ran from zombies that turned ppl by putting on Mickey Mouse ears that plunged knives into your brain, and they took over an entire neighborhood in the industrial sector after we evaded a Disney police sniper. That was one point on the dice away from headshotting our accountant. Old Man Henderson is the only way to play CoC in my eyes!

[@EvilDoresh]

Old Man Henderson proved you _can_ win.

[@darrenp9454]

Extra points for the Johnny Cash reference!

[@RPGPundit]

Damn right. Though, that's also The Book of Revelation, via Cash.

[@lordmatteus]

I had this same thought years ago when designing my now "defalt homebrew campaign" world. I wanted to make something to give my players to fight for but at the same time I wanted to give a gritty feeling by showing how corruption of the institutions of order create chaos. Cool video and good discussion.

[@RPGPundit]

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[@marvalice3455]

As I grow older, I am increasingly traditional Catholic, so me and Pundit likely disagree on a large amount. But we can at least agree on this. "The light shines in the darkness. And the darkness cannot overcome it".

[@RPGPundit]

I assume you meant Pundit?

[@marvalice3455]

@@RPGPundit yes. Sorry, I can't spell for beans xD Edit: on second thought, I will blame the spell checker on my phone. Always proof read your comments kids!

[@flashgorgon5516]

Same here @MarvAlice same here. It's kind of a shame that a well thought out and grounded "medieval authentic' setting with a pretty decent rules system had to be created by a frikin Mason LOL!

[@RogueAgent007]

I've had Dark Albion for years, used some portions of it for campaigns. Just ordered the Cults of Chaos. What an awesome DM tool!

[@RPGPundit]

I know, right? Mechanically speaking, it's the book I'm most proud of. Spread the word!

[@lordshell]

Even in the Genesis of the Law/Chaos stories (Elric) heroes could change outcomes. There might have been some moral ambiguities and hopelessness, but there were actual impacts. Heroes could change things.

[@springheeledjackofthegurdi2117]

Warhammer up till the mid to late 2000s always used the Michael Moorcock dualist cosmology of order vs chaos, it changed when a few of the heads in charge of fantasy wanted to reboot the setting and started sabotaging it one big way was to ignore any argument or perspective that wasn't totally in favour of Chaos, Nagash or the Skaven and started making order factions act like morons and make chaos look good by default. It all came to ahead in The End Times where GW screwed its own fan base (first by making them by expensive end times rule books, then by invalidating them within months along with massive amounts of armies), it badly damaged the brand and caused a contingent of fantasy fans to pretty much swear off GW's non video game output and go to either 9th Age or Kings of War

[@charlessmith5465]

I don't think _meaningfulness_ is any less important in settings just because some nihilistic faction exists who'll say [nothing means anything or is worthwhile] one minute and then walk into a coffee shop and pay seven dollars for a large coffee and a fresh piece of poundcake. 🤭

[@BX-advocate]

Your videos keep getting better and better. This one makes a lot of sense and has reach beyond just the topic of RPGs. I think RPGs can teach us a lot about life and this has been a very deep and enriching video. Thanks for all you do, you're doing God's work.

[@RPGPundit]

Thank you. Please share the video!

[@nooctip]

In the end Zaroth will eat us all. If you serve him, you get eaten last.

[@simontmn]

I don't think Call of Cthulu really has a teleology, though I guess some people have tried to impose one upon it. It's supposed to be a modernist atheist 'scientific' universe without inherent meaning, so no Evil, as you say. This is very different from the anti-theist postmodernist Evil Rules Good Drools type settings like WHFRP. Having been raised as an atheist without any of that postmodernist death cult stuff, I always found the CoC universe very familiar and comfortable. The postmodernist death cults feel like efforts to impose meaning on a meaningless universe.

[@RPGPundit]

No evil, but a meaningless world where nothing human beings do matters at all, and humanity is doomed to be consumed. Agreed that this makes it somewhat different from WFRP, but still nihilistic.

[@simontmn]

@@RPGPundit "humanity is doomed to be consumed" I never saw this in the HPL stories or my edition of CoC (2e). There didn't seem any particular reason why humans couldn't evolve into another (eg) Lesser Independent Race, with some luck. It's a Darwinian Survival of the Fittest universe, which may be horrific compared to a Christian teleolology, but the only doom is 'everything will end eventually'. It's more the 'randomness and chaos' that is presented as scary, that humanity has no inherent right to exist and there's no omnipotent Power ensuring that everything turns out for the best.

[@KopperNeoman]

@RPGPundit Interestingly, Lovecraft's world got less nihilistic as the man himself did. It went from sheer dread to something more like Darkest Dungeon - the human race CAN fell the nightmares, but it will NOT be easy, and the darkness DOES have a genuine chance to prevail.

[@simontmn]

@@RPGPundit " nothing human beings do matters at all" I guess this is what I was brought up with, so I always had trouble seeing it as 'horrific'. My mother's philosophy was basically Stoicism in the face of a meaningless universe, with value being internally derived from how one comports oneself in the face of the Void.

[@Richforce1]

I imagine a cult being wiped out in Dark Albion and the inquistors shout with each deathblow "Die in the name of law and God!"

[@LunaProtege]

I prefer a semi-cyclical worldview rather than a balance or inevitable fall to evil paradigm. Lawful evil corrupts the law, causing Chaos to emerge to tear it apart. Chaotic Evil takes advantage of this fall, and Law returns in response to assert itself. The whole while, good remains, and it learns; leading the world to greater peaks, and ensuring that they won't fall any further than their previous peak. Note: In this setup, both Law and Chaos are necessary parts of habitable order, and to reinforce this I'd probably make the two most important Good Gods are a Lawful Good and Chaotic Good married couple.

[@RPGPundit]

The "cyclical universe" is a fundamentally pagan metaphysic. It can be presented in a way that is very human-positive, or very anti-human, either purposeful or pointless.

[@LunaProtege]

​@@RPGPundit I think that in itself is worthwhile, as seen in its entirety its honest. Show off the best and worst of humanity, and that purpose can and must be won through hard work. Evil might be neither inevitable nor preventable, after all the issue is that we walk blindly into the future not knowing all the dangers; and if we don't know, we can't stop it, but we can learn from experience to prevent it the next time. As such, the cycle of prosperity resembles a spiral, going ever outwards rather than a circle.

[@jemm113]

@@LunaProtege this is why I like settings with universal reincarnation. It gives lives both less value (you know you will be reincarnated so why bother) but also more value as you want to make sure that the world isn’t an endless hellhole for people to be born into, you want to plant a tree who’s shade you will never sit under, at least in this life. And this is without moral prescriptions to one’s soul after death. Of course it’s also possible to have reincarnation plus endpoints to each soul like a permanent or semi-permanent afterlife where moral judgement is at play and reincarnation serves as both the general law of life and a way for souls to be tested. Though the philosophical implications of this system I haven’t delved into yet. Plus your point about the forces of good working to make sure any fall to evil or chaos never causes civilization to fall past the previous low point is important for showing why heroics are important: without anyone willing for better, every fall will land harder and more will unduly suffer.

[@attentionspanlabs]

Best video in ages. I am tired of nihilism and moral inversion in my entertainment. With how pervasive it is even in mainstream corporate media it can't be anything other than a propaganda campaign.

[@RPGPundit]

Thank you. If you want more like this, share the video, spread the word.

[@stevekillgore9272]

Agreed

[@DeusVultLurch]

This is my favorite video by you so far.

[@RPGPundit]

If you want more like this: spread the word, share the video!

[@billybatson8448]

Damn Kas! Your work is like mirror that’s reflecting a tree that has no roots.

[@destroso]

I love that the French are frogmen, makes me chuckle every time

[@Esscex]

Very insightful. Videos like this are why I subscribed to the channel.

[@RPGPundit]

Thank you. Spread the word, share the video!

[@Rutibex]

Some interesting philosophical advise couched in the form of RPGs. You seem to take role-playing quite seriously, in that it is important to create the correct cosmos and philosophical metaphysics for your own sake as the DM. Most of my players only care if there is a dungeon, what sort of treasure is there to take, and who is guarding it lol. I honestly don't tell my players the ultimate true meta-physics of my world. It would stifle their creativity if they knew for certain order is supreme or there is one ultimate god or any of that. It can certainly seem that way, or it could seem like Chaos is more powerful. But none of the players are all-seeing! They don't know how the universe truly works, just like we here on earth don't.

[@RPGPundit]

It depends on the type of campaigns you want to run of course, if you're only doing dungeon crawls it won't matter much. As to "they don't know how the universe truly works like we don't", I would point out we clearly think we do. We have a whole set of paradigms built in to our way of thinking and acting toward the world. And those paradigms we have are different from those that some yanomami indian living in the jungle today or some yemeni herder living 100 years ago or some French peasant living 500 years ago would have thought. If you don't explain how the people of your world think reality is like, and therefore how they behave based on those beliefs, your players will assume they think just like you do right now and act like people from 2022 western urban society.

[@stevekillgore9272]

I struggle to bring in and keep players in my campaign world of Vikings and Greeks - I don't go as far as the 2E campaign books Age of Heroes, and Vikings would go in revising Classes and Magic, etc. but in keeping to 1st/2nd E rules with a humancentric world so many players flounder.

[@basshunter69ffs]

subbed. love the topic, the take, the format.

[@RPGPundit]

Thanks! Spread the word, share the video.

[@simontmn]

I tend to go for an Ormazd vs Ahriman type paradigm in my world setups*. I find the edgelord type settings where only Evil/Chaos is true/can win to be really silly. A Christian type setting where only Good/Law can win in a cosmic sense is workable and ironically I think works best in a horror setting. Horror is about the incursion of Chaos into Law, and the possibility of being separated from God. Hence the preventable tragedy of Sin that you discuss.

[@simontmn]

*One thing I really dislike is the Forgotten Realms setup where the High God Ao is a massive dickhead who ensures neither Good nor Evil is genuinely meaningful. I run my Forgotten Realms out of the 1e Grey Box.

[@RPGPundit]

That's the only way to run it. Spread the word, share the video!

[@robblumenberg5965]

Well Alignment in D&D comes from the game Chainmail which is a wargame, and the many gods come from Gary Gygax wanting to make his game accessible to all religions.

[@RPGPundit]

The first half of your statement it a historical fact. The second is something I never heard any evidence of. Much more likely, Chainmail L/N/C alignments came from Gary Gygax having read a lot of Moorcock. Gygax himself was a pretty devout Christian.

[@patrickbuckley7259]

I am crafting a strange medieval setting which combines Dark Fantasy, and Post-Apocalyptic Fiction, yet completely refutes the underlying nihilism often inherent in both. There is an absolute evil, a taint which runs throughout the world, and nearly consumed it utterly. Yet hope remains that the world may one day be healed. Heroes are not just buying time to stave off the inevitable. They are the last line of defense for the last true bastion of light and hope in all the world. Yet superficially the setting is very High Medieval. Setting wise I was heavily inspired by things like Diablo, & Castlevania, mixed with a bit of generic medieval fantasy. The themes I mostly explore, are about the nature of evil (only being able to twist and profane that which is good, and never truly create.) How far can one go in defense of "the greater good" before said good ceases to truly be good. Can one truly be loyal to God and the State? (In this case gods, but they are more or less just different aspects of the Christian God, 1 God for each of the cardinal virtues, and a Jesus analogue who embodies the three Theological Virtues) Is it better to tolerate corruption in order to avoid weakening ourselves when there are wolves at the door? Or is it better to risk it all to ensure our cause remains pure, and it's purpose is not forgotten. For if we allow our leaders to become wolves, what's the point of holding that door in the first place? That sort of stuff. Good can win, but it's going to be a hard won battle, for the world is rife with corruption and serpents lay in wait all around us, often in the guise of angels. Hell, we can't even really trust ourselves, for evil lurks everywhere, even within. I feel it's pretty heavily colored by my own experience as a Christian and a Conservative in the modern world. Navigating modern society is like walking on a floor covered with glass, bare foot. Your going to get cut, but the objective is to make sure you can keep your feet from getting too cut up while you do your best to sweep away the glass. Hoping that the floor will be safe enough for you children to walk on one day. Yet anger and bitterness and a desire to clear the field no matter the method remains one of the greatest enemies. Sometimes you cannot help but want to cry out in anger and frustration, but you know that at best it will do you no good, and could just as easily lead you to making the problem worse. So would you say that perhaps the themes are too far off from the setting, or are they in enough alignment?

[@ryanmatthews5882]

You have it twisted exactly upside down. Personally, I find it more inspiring that in a world where your choices are completely your own, that choosing to do good in the face of taking the easy path and descending into self-indulgence is the far more honorable and inspiring path. Doing good *only* out of a desire to do good with no hope of reward at the end. Finding brief beauty in the glory of others.

[@RPGPundit]

But in a world where the actual nature of reality is purposeless chaos, there's no such thing as "good". At best, it is an utterly subjective personal vanity based on nothing but one's own whims.

[@ryanmatthews5882]

@@RPGPundit not true. I think humans, even in the absence of narratives of religion are perfectly capable of recognizing good or evil actions. Honestly, it is traditions and narratives that allow people to justify evil actions, largely. In their absence, it is hard to justify being harmful to others.

[@destroso]

Another brilliant video, thank you

[@RPGPundit]

Thank you! Spread the word!

[@VengerSatanis]

Good video, Pundit. I might make a response video to go with this...

[@primafacie5029]

You sold me with this video.

[@RPGPundit]

Spread the word, share the video!

[@primafacie5029]

@@RPGPundit Bought Dark Albion today... I want to digest it first :)

[@merxanity1625]

In my own creations, I like the idea of law and chaos, good and evil, all of it being evenly matched (though not necessarily uniformly at all levels), and that the future, even to the gods, is uncertain. That you as a player would then choose to take a side and try to tip the scale should matter. The challenge of course being getting your players to care enough to pick a side in the first place.

[@RPGPundit]

Ok Boomer. Heh, no, joking. I'm not saying that's not a valid position to have. It is in essence the pagan viewpoint of the classical world (as well as a view reflective of other civilizations, like India or China at times). It's just not very reflective of a medieval european style setting.

[@merxanity1625]

@@RPGPundit yeah on that I agree, if you want any illusion of similarity to reality, post modernism misses the mark completely. Mine is purposely way different from earth's geography and history for that very reason, I like the reprieve from constant comparisons to our history and its good an evil. It is also very magic and dragon heavy, something our reality has a sore lack of.

[@gendor5199]

I keep re-listening to this video and I love it. "Sin can be prevented, that is what makes it such a shame that it happens. It is Easy to follow chaos, it is Hard to follow Law." Now I have to figure out a way storywise to make the player struggle with that, difficult but rewarding play, or "power gaming" and chaos. Kinda makes me wonder how much of this I missed when skimming through the Pundits work.... maybe even an adventure where the players learn the fall to chaos by some cultists came from weakness. Hmm, if only I was half as cool as the Pundit!

[@RPGPundit]

Well, thanks. I'm glad its providing inspiration for you!

[@Meloncolliepoet]

Okay, I gotta ask. Back when I was a kid, my parents would get super angry if their coffee was cold. Then Millenials came along and suddenly "ice coffee" is a big thing. How TF did that even happen?! Is this a teenage rebellion thing or something?

[@RPGPundit]

I mean, I've been drinking iced coffee since at least the early 90s, but then Canadians are huge fans of iced coffee.

[@Z1gguratVert1go]

Your parents didn't have a microwave I'm guessing. I drink coffee all day and when it gets cold I don't care and drink it anyway. Like my parents before me.

[@josephskiles]

I get what your saying Pundent but at the same time there is great potential in being a flickering candle in the darkness that can get snuffed out at any second. That's how I always ran and played Ravenloft, and why the new Ravenloft pisses me off to no end. There is enough room in gaming for both styles, and the way you described world building and outlook should be the main way campaigns are ran but it's fun sometimes to play the doomed heroes as well. As for the god's in WHF there is also truth in what you said but those God's don't completely define evil. Nurgle also has domain over the creation of his disease's, but decay is needed in the circle of life. Slaanesh may be the god of excess but it also is a god of motivation. Tzeetch may be in say but without him there would be no change, and Korne embodies using ones own strength to overcome obstacles just as much as violent rage . There use to be God's of order in the setting but honestly they were just as bad as chaos because they wanted everything to remain in a perpetual state of unchanged. Gork and Mork are the real heroes of fantasy their children just want to krump, and every day is a good day for a green skin

[@RPGPundit]

Ravenloft was precisely supposed to be based on the Victorian gothic horror stories, which had a strong moral universe. The evil was powerful and harmful because it was a grotesque perversion of that natural order, it was tragic because it should not have been. It's not meant to be the inevitable end result of the natural order. It is about heroes (Van Helsing, etc) fighting to restore the natural order against a great terror that is unquestionably evil (almost always caused by tragic hubris, but in no way is it implied that this hubris makes it excusable). In other words, Ravenloft should be the OPPOSITE of nihilist. Terrible evil, terrible danger, but it is the destiny of good to triumph over evil and for the right to triumph over the degenerate and the perverse.

[@darkknightofhibernia4815]

I will point out a thought I had, about your point on alignment in the video. In the AD&D 1e Nine Point Alignment system, Neutrality is the most powerful alignment, and is almost an invasive species. Because it doesnt just invade Philosophy (Law vs Chaos), but also Morality (Good vs Evil) What's interesting is that you are correct that this is a Baby Boomer/Hippy Trippy way of thinking, its not that it's balance in all things. The Hippies want to abdicate responsibility, and surrendering to Chaos was easier then serving Law. Thats why Post Modernism emerged out of the Hippy Movements. Like In Cults of Chaos, Neutral/Pagan/Old Religion cults are vulnerable to Chaos, because it preys on the hate/weakness of these Neutral cults, and corrupts them from the inside out. Neutrality enables Chaos Because it allows for indifference/Complacancy to set in. Neutrals hate Law because it's ideals force people to work hard forever to mantain the Ideal society. Because Chaos does not immediately you demand to serve, but just be indifferent to societal collapse, it preys on Neutrals Vices (sloth, gluttony, lust etc), and thus laying the foundation for the normalusation of vice. Then, once the society has full embaced vice, and destroyed virtue, Chaos surges forth, debauching, enslaving and massacring everything in its path. So, Neutrality is, in a way, the enabler of Chaos. Because, all it takes for the Triumph of Evil, is for Good Men to do nothing

[@Fernoll]

I'm not big on Warhammer lore, so let any hardcore fans correct me if I'm wrong, but it was my understanding that the Endtimes and the triumph of Chaos were fairly recent additions to the lore, and that it enraged the fanbase for the exact reasons Pundit mentiioned.

[@BlameMaxSand]

So, yes and no. It's ALWAYS been "GrimDark" and being good, or even neutral is harder than being evil, but it wasn't, as you said, until the EndTimes they added recently that it was a foregone conclusion that Chaos would win. It was the logical bet before that, it SEEMS like chaos would win because we are weak and fragile and prone to corruption, but it was never pre ordained until Modern Games Workshop decided to go that route.

[@Fernoll]

@@BlameMaxSand So, essentialy, before the "Chaos Confirmed", players were at least given the illusion that they might hold out against evil, even if it's a constant battle uphill.

[@BlameMaxSand]

@@Fernoll Yeah, its what I liked about the setting, and you will see a lot of older Warhammer fantasy fans say its now "ruined" with the Endtimes and Age of Sigmar, and they aren't wrong if that "fight the good fight even in the darkest hours" gritty vibe is what they liked about it to begin with.

[@Fernoll]

@@BlameMaxSand Well, in that sense then it can be argued that Warhammer isn't nihilistic. Grimdark, for sure, as even the "good guys" aren't that good, but not nihilistic.

[@andrewjackson673]

that art style on lion and dragon cover still gives me the correct feels.

[@RPGPundit]

Thank you!

[@DM_Curtis]

Maker's Breath, this is good.

[@RPGPundit]

Thanks. Spread the word, share the video!

[@lcronovt]

oh man, I want this video as a written article, doesnt matter if is in spanish or in english

[@RPGPundit]

therpgpundit.blogspot.com/2016/01/chaos-vs-law-in-dark-albion-as-opposed.html

[@ARKavli]

That was an excellent discussion! I love grimdark and historical, and you've done an excellent job explaining a difference that I understood on some level, but never articulated beyond hopeful vs hopeless.

[@RPGPundit]

Thanks. Spread the word, share the video!

[@junkbarbarian]

I've been a RPG players off and on since I was about 10, but only became a Christian in my late forties. As my world view changed over the years I found that Dungeons and Dragons et all sort of rubbed me the wrong way, at first I thought it was superficialities like demons and such, but after listening to this I've come to realize it is something far deeper. Great video. Would love to see more like it. Thanks.

[@RPGPundit]

Well, check out Lion & Dragon, and Sword & Caravan!

[@magonus195]

I think this is your best video to date. And help clear up some muddiness about what I'm doing in my own Spelljammer of setting, and a different beliefs among the different worlds. You're right, if you don't have the overarching telos in mind, then it's just kind of whateverness.

[@RPGPundit]

Well, if you want more videos like this, spread the word and Share This Video!

[@TylerSantinelli]

This is the number one thing I try to get across to my players in my games. I have a question for you, Pundit. How do you deal with players who either can't look past their contemporary views or otherwise don't take the setting seriously? Gonzo players, authentic setting.

[@RPGPundit]

Well, first of all be sure you're running the campaign that the players actually want to play. If your players want to play Heavy Metal and you're trying to run Game Of Thrones, you'll have a problem. Now, if they say they want to play a medieval authentic campaign, and the problem is that they're not getting how to, maybe its because they haven't had sufficient contextual understanding of what the setting's internal views are. That's where you have to do a lot of asides for a few sessions where you explain (out of character) to the Players stuff like "all your PCs would know that the normal thing would be for only the highest social status PC to talk here", "Your cleric knows that obviously he would not be looting corpses for coins", "if you steal from the castle you were invited to stay in that would be one of the worst breaches of honor imaginable, sure you can do it, but it means you're a horrible person and if get caught you'd face having your right hand chopped off - yes, even for just stealing a spoon - and you'd have dishonored your lord as well", etc etc. Don't force the players to do stuff, but make sure they know what their character would KNOW, the common sense of what people in that world would normally think about things, then it's up to them if they follow that paradigm or not.

[@michelvoortman4725]

So basically, don't make your setting grimdark. If evil is inevitable, then everything becomes meaningless. More options is always better. That makes it realistic.

[@michelvoortman4725]

Your actions having consequences.

[@michelvoortman4725]

If the threat is so big, you have to engage it and that eliminates a lot of player choices.

[@isawamoose]

A properly educated Post Modernist would be like "Ugh I can't wait for Yaldobaoth to be un aborted to rejoin the pleroma. Simp matterists."

[@dmain6735]

Great upload.

[@RPGPundit]

Thanks. Spread the word, share the video!

[@Wolfphototech]

Attack of the meatball.

[@johnkirk2863]

Im not sure if ADandD has a view I find its just a tool kit for you the DM to do with as you please just like 5th edition core books...Now once you start adding campaign settings then it starts to show the world view of the campaign settings which Forgotten realms turned into the coastal US city feel

[@jemm113]

You just vocalized why I hate the sword coast, modern D&D + Forgotten Realms, and WotC in general: every single fucking thing they make ties back into their costal city culture. The fucking radiant citadel. The way they focus on the sword coast and it’s cities eschewing all of the adventure and fantasy of the numerous inland and outlying kingdoms and the very anti-multicultural and distinct regions like Zakarah and Kara Tur. Everything has to be a multicultural city or espouse and extol their values. When they’re forced to work outside of these limits, it either succeeds better than ever because it speaks to tastes they neglected and was forged outside of their comfort zone, or it fails spectacularly because they had no ability to accurately capture that which lied beyond their company’s Overton window. It also doesn’t help that the FR has so many overpowered NPCs that Wizards frankly should have killed off for 5e to lower the average power level. If I want a goblin war, I literally cannot have it anywhere within 400 miles of the sword coast or I have to excuse why a canon wizard character literally doesn’t wish the problem away without establishing a different, bigger threat that would probably capture my PCs attention more than some goblin hordes in the sticks and they would pursue for the sake of personal glory. I would have to intentionally put together a group of pure goblin slayers to get it to work and that’s not realistic. At this point, now that school is over, I just need to redouble my efforts to write my own ongoing settings. And use different systems that fulfill my actual needs like FFd20 or 4e and plunging into settings like Mystara. If I want 5e again I should heavily consider just using Eberron since if I WANT a focus on tech and cities it’s the better setting and it’s intentionally made to not have overpowered asshole heroes in every corner that realistically would fix all the problems in a story without the PCs’ involvement.

[@johnkirk2863]

@@jemm113 Forgotten Realms to me has always been a problem..its just too saturated with crazy powerful NPCs and everyday dragons show up (hell they even had a whole flight of dragons when in my opinion they should be rare) I like the rules for 5th edition but I hate the flavor of it especially now WOTC is going in the wrong direction but maybe it will work out for them but I feel the real fans will go to another edition or other RPG system like you,

[@cobinizor]

One thing to keep in mind is that an SJW anti colonial world is certainly purposeful. For a dystopian game.

[@CharlesKhan]

There's one purpose for every fantasy world I put in a tabletop RPG: adventure

[@RPGPundit]

That's the meta-purpose of play. What I'm talking about here is the motivational purpose of the setting.

[@CharlesKhan]

​@@RPGPundit the motivation for adventure is the adventure itself, friends we make along the way, treasures, glory, honor, or to prove to yourself that you're worthy of the adventure

[@Stormeris]

Apart from the whole endtimes that everyone thought was stupid as shit, I don't think warhammer was that super dark, definitely nowhere to the point of 40k. Chaos didn't seem like that big of a deal, being mostly relegated to northern wastes and most civilized regions were fine Until gw decided to discontinue the setting, nuked everything and everyone, blew up the world and made Age of Sigmar. Which kinda seems even less dark than original warhammer fantasy, because forces of good now have their own giant armored warriors with lighting powers and seemingly unlimited respawning

[@josephskiles]

They had to throw space Marines into fantasy because that's all they can ever do for some reason. Gotta sell those models after all

[@coureurdesbois6754]

I'm toying with the idea of creating a post post apocalyptic world but whitout all the nihilism. Like something straight from a Studio Ghibli movie maybe.

[@RPGPundit]

easier to do if it's a long-post apocalypse. Apocalypses are mostly horrible within the generation that lives through it. The same situation centuries later might still never have really recovered but the people don't know most of what they lost, and may find ways to live relatively simpler but happy lives.

[@juddgoswick2024]

This has application well past gaming. Wait! Is this a slam on Jobe? 😉

[@RPGPundit]

Heh.

[@R_Nedza]

Excellent video👍👍

[@RPGPundit]

Thanks. Spread the word, share the video!

[@trioofone8911]

Wow. That's a pretty distorted view of the modern environmental movement.

[@josephskiles]

Out of curiosity Pundent. Which topics do you like talking more about those on this or your other channel? I deeply apologize if it is taboo to bring up your other KZbin channel on this one, honestly I just thought you have some interesting things to say on both and I was extremely curious on what topics you enjoy making videos most for! Thanks for your dedication and hard work!

[@longshot9060]

I just picked up Cults of Chaos!

[@RPGPundit]

Thank you! I'm sure you'll enjoy it!

[@autisticallyaccurate]

Evitable Tragedy, Bravo! Very Inspiring! Noble And Meaningful! #RPGPundit #TheBestOfRPG #OSR #DND

[@Trevalion]

More episodes like this! The wokeness is fun to bash, and I like those episodes too, but the philosophy behind game design is so interesting.

[@RPGPundit]

Well, if you want more of these kinds of videos, help these kinds out: spread the word, share the video!

[@gendor5199]

Returning to this Gem I found myself with a new question. As it mention in the latter half, even the most doomsday cult that existed previously, they still had an idea of Hope for the post-apocalypse. But what about chaos cults? I can see many ways, and one is for doomsday cults to be the chaotic ones? Or maybe the chaos cults follow the same post-apocalyptic hope but in their own flavor. The difficulty here would be the realworld "What cult is right?" But maybe it is just warhammer way of the 4 cults, pleasure, violence, despair, basically ANYTHING for your gain? (Sidenote that Grandfather Nurgle is also very focused on spreading the care even if his followers are very selfcentered, now there is an interesting contradiction) Maybe looking into the vice and sin? This too is focused on selfish vs selfless. So many questions that would be interesting to discuss.

[@RPGPundit]

It depends. The "chaos cults" might be like the Gnostics, believing that only with the destruction of the "false world" can they escape to the true perfect state. Others might believe that they will rule in a new world, or become gods themselves. That's usually the kind of appeal of these cults.

[@gendor5199]

@@RPGPundit This is the perk of following a true historian, proper and good knowledge from proper and good sources. The "fun" for the Game Master is then to choose which of all possible endings are real and not. At least personally I am likely to let the players have more than a hand in their own "right". I am sure I will come back to this video just because of how inspirational it is, a "more true" lore than others.

[@certanmike]

mine is wide magic dragons rule and humans are rare do to wizards doing things

[@user-ee6ng4bb9l]

This was my issue with Mork Borg. Mechanically and stylistically why would anyone adventure in a nihilistic hellscape that through game mechanics predetermined the end of the world and game. I actually like the aesthetic and rules even the setting but couldn't come up with any real reason to play.

[@RPGPundit]

If you like Gonzo, check out The World of the Last Sun.

[@user-ee6ng4bb9l]

@@RPGPundit It is on the list. Honestly don't know why I don't play DCC as a rule considering I started in 3e.

[@tabletopgamingwithwolfphototec]

Here reporting for duty.

[@RPGPundit]

Spread the word, share the video!

[@CirKhan]

1. Warhammer RPG is not apocalyptic in it's weltenschauung. Nowhere in the 1. and 2. editions (I haven't bothered with later so I can't authoritatively speak of them) eventual victory of Chaos is taken for granted in the canon. Sure, some flagellant cults may claim it so, but within the context of Sigmarite and other established religions taken at least as a borderline heresy if not full blown one. Some people may play it that way, mostly those influenced by End of times storyline from the tabletop game, but it's not canon in the TTRPG. Warhammer setting has a varied origins, but if you go into them they are mostly modernist, not postmodernist. The whole concept of Chaos, which isn't "evil" but just Chaos, is of course borrowed from Moorcok, who is very much a late modernistic author, and the idea behind it is much more ancient and goes back to polytheistic cosmogonies. Warhammer is a fantasy world inspired by the real world, not a facsimile of the real world just with elves and dwarves. It has it's own internal logic and premises that are quite different from a reformation era real life Europe. So your entire argument of juxtaposing WH to L&D is essentially a straw man. 2. By making religion in L&D a Sol Invictus you also sidestepped from actual history into alternative history realm. But by treating it just like roman Catholicism, jut under different name, you are actually doing the opposite of what your intentions are- namely to represent historically authentic approach to the era. Because obviously theology of Sol Invictus, about which we know sadly little about, was sufficiently different in it's core tenants to be thoroughly purged in the late antiquity by the mainstream Christianity. And considering just how much relatively slight theological differences in interpretation and practices within mainstream Christianity had impact in the real world-iconclasm, filioque etc. it's safe to say that something as different as actual Sol Invictus brand of monotheism would shape European society in a markedly different way, hence no "medievalism as we know it, just with slightly different religious symbolism". Also, while Logos can be interpreted as a sort of "Law", it's much more nuanced term, and entire Chaos vs. Law paradigm really has no place in historical Christian thought. I cannot shake the feeling that in fact here you are doing exactly the same thing you are (falsely) accusing WH of.

[@nickjones4533]

I enjoyed this discussion and found myself wishing there was another half hour. WOTC's latest "campaign settings" are really adventures with a little lore sprinkled in. What's the point building a variety of detailed worlds when the only one that's allowed is a racially diverse, sexually egalitarian matriarchy that runs on socialist economics and elves, dwarves, orcs, and demons are identical. Will we ever see campaign boxed sets like the days of yore? Probably not. The diversity commissars they've hired will not permit any world that doesn't resemble a gender studies class.

[@RPGPundit]

Spread the word, share the video! Especially if you want me to do more videos along these lines in my channel.

[@destroso]

There are 2 changes I will make to L&D, I will use thac0, I just love it, and the undying Son, is Jesus, which is an apt moniker either way.

[@RPGPundit]

Both of those are very simple to fix.

[@simonsimons1252]

WFRP to me is dark and nihilistic to the point of pointlessness. If you run it as written, nothing can matter because the outcome's always the same: Chaos wins. Whenever they talk about Chaos it's always about how glorious and triumphant they are and will be. They want you to cheer for Chaos, and they intend Law to appear as a wrong, ineffective, wimpy villain to be destroyed, because that subverts expectations and subversion is a good thing to postmodernists. There are worse examples, but it's still one of the most irritatingly and aggressively nihilistic settings I've ever seen.

[@jonnyf6664]

i wish more people would be willing to die for there faith instead of being too deep in sin and never repenting

[@derekburge5294]

Honestly, there have been moments after reading modern political and academic discourse that made me wonder if Slaanesh were real. It just explains too much.

[@WilliamMoses355]

A few months ago Carl Benjamin put out a lengthy article on the politics of Warhammer. It should be on his Lotus Eaters website, but it might be behind a pay wall by this point. Among other points, he argued that the Chaos powers satire the Left, in the same way the Imperium satires the Right. I especially liked the lines "Khorne supports mostly peaceful violence," and "Nurgle is healthy at any size."

[@derekburge5294]

@@WilliamMoses355 I'm sure it's a wonderful article, but I flatly refuse to give Mr Benjamin an iota of attention since he admitted to fluffing data during the Rotheram catastrophe. For Sargon to built his platform on intellectual honesty, and then betray that principle was beyond tolerable for me.

[@AndyReichert0]

i would argue that nihilism does offer salvation for its believers. they became a nihilist because they didn't like the thought that actions have consequences and that good consequences can only come from the pain, embarrassment, and toil of good actions, and nihilism offered them salvation from that idea. on nihilism, all actions are equal because all result in the same consequences. and their version of divine judgment/retribution/justice is that they get to spitefully inflict suffering on the world/people that pained the nihilist with the dreadful reality of morality and consequences. it's the Cain and Abel story.

[@RPGPundit]

That's not "salvation" though, that's an excuse to avoid guilt or responsibility. It also doesn't really work

[@monkeyfoo999]

Really big misread of warhammer fantasy. Chaos needs to be subtle and corrupt. It is the easy way to power. Heroes push against the dark they can push it back into the releam beyond. Chaos is clearly the unnatural choice. The followers of chaos are tricked warped to suffer. It is not like cthulu. Maybe your confused do to the poorly written end times which did jarringly change the tone. Even after that though chaos failed as the forces of good continue and push them back. Warhammer is a setting were evil is strong and tempting and to be good means you must be even stronger dig your heels in and beat it back. Honestly the way you describe your own stuff is what warhammer is. If man was stronger chaos would be no more. Chaos needs us it only exist, feeds, grows strong cause of us.

[@RPGPundit]

It was quite a while before 2e that Warhammer (in its lore) implied that Chaos is inevitable.

[@monkeyfoo999]

@@RPGPundit yes chaos tries to make itself seem inevitable. Its tries to ware down and corrupt those who face it. Yet it is divided, it loses, it is thrown back by mere mortals who will not bend. The mortal races are not United but still beat chaos. Warhammer says chaos can win, but it can also lose. Evil is strong the good guys are on a back foot, but is firmly planted and they are pushing back. It might that since warhammer starts with evil having a hand hold that on the surface you could see it as a nialistic setting. It's dark but you can beat the dark.

[@ReustersPlace]

I really enjoyed listening to this, and the truth of how todays anti-theistic mentality is doomed to emptiness. And thinking about the depths of the religion in your game bring flavor and detail that can only add to the enjoyment

[@ReustersPlace]

And the point of a man’s failing is due to failing to do his duty, is perfect

[@willinnewhaven3285]

Why do you talk when Meatball is performing?

[@RPGPundit]

Spread the word, share the video!

[@sylvaindurand1817]

Would you advocate adopting Derleth's vision of the Mythos for Call of Cthulhu then?

[@RPGPundit]

No, that's stupid too. Cthulhu needs to be nihilist, that's its horror: the cosmic horror of the early 20th century modernist, the horror of "God is dead", where there is no guiding force, nothing protecting humanity, and an understanding of a universe increasingly vast and terrible not for its tentacle monsters but for its complete disregard for human significance in any way. The world view of the positivist Atheist, one that if someone truly looks at it objectively really does demand either utter despair, or degenerating backward into the twisted comforts of a new dark age. It just means Cthulhu is not good for much else.

[@osiris8251]

Who were the Cathars who you were talking about?

[@RPGPundit]

Famous medieval heretics

[@osiris8251]

@@RPGPundit I couldn't find very much about them when I looked it up. Where did you learn about the more granular details about the medieval period?

[@solomani5959]

I’m be interested to know why you didn’t and then did use the name Christianity in your rpg. I have a similar setup in my dying earth style setting - law and good will eventually win the cosmological battle and it’s inevitable because the creator god said so. But I have always called that god and religion something other than Jesus and Christianity. Thinking now it just maybe easier and even more grounded to use the real names as opposed to coded names.

[@RPGPundit]

My original fear was twofold: one, that if I actually called the obvious Christianity in Dark Albion "Christianity" it might offend some actual Christians, but moreso that it would make it very difficult for some postmodern gamers to portray medieval Christian characters authentically, because their own hang-ups about Christianity could get in the way of that. I was thinking more specifically of DMs, who maybe having prejudices against Christianity would feel the need to portray all christians as hypocrites, or priests/clerics as corrupt, or the Church itself as abusive. But since then I decided that people who have been purchasing my products and actually paying attention are likely to not have this problem.

[@solomani5959]

@@RPGPundit Nice, thanks for the detail!

[@starbugmechanic5236]

I used to play Warhammer 40k but I had to get out of it because the universe is too depressing and demonic.

[@RPGPundit]

Spread the word, share the video!

[@yurimolino5435]

I disagree in regard to Warhammer. Humanity and the other races are Doomed of they fail or slip in their opposition to Chaos. Essentially the scenario Is One of Eternal Watch, where Heroes Need to shoulder the burden of keeping the flame alive and Hope to manager It Long enough for the next generation of Heroes to rise and take their Place. I don't see It as a "Whatever we do, Chaos Will win in the end." But a "As Kong as we keep guard, Chaos Will not win." Those Who follow Chaos (which in the video Is pointed out as both "the smart thing to do" because it's the winning side and "completely futile" because It Will destroy them too, Is uncorrect. Aside from the madmans, many follow Chaos in the Hope to rise as Demon Princes, thus escaping the destruction of the world, but the actual ratio of success of such a thing Is close to 0 anyway.

[@blackpawlo]

While I have great respect for you, Pundit I detest 3/4 of things you said about Warhammer While I agree that 3 and 4 editions ware just about destroying universe to prepare way for Age of Sigmar I don't agree it's all nihilistic 2ed was about resisting Chaos. You could not play Chaos Lord or any chaos class before Tome of Corruption release. YEs you could be evil and chaotic but that was never good for you. ToC gave you way to become Chaos Knight and Chosen of Chaos but while on this path you could easily became mindless chaos spawn just because your Chaos patron said "LOL YOLO" So while playing high exp Chosen of Chaos and using all powers, demonic weapons and chaos spells was fun it was just as Grimdark for you as it was for common mortals. For example- your chaos parton could "bless" you many cool mutations but even if those mutations give nothing but bonuses they still count against your mutation limit and when you pass limit you die at best and change into chaos spawn at worst. Life is not easy in Warhammer even for evil guys Usual game of Warhammer for me was almost always playing good guys that tried to save the day or at least survive another day against more numerous and insidious enemy. Reality of Empire was dirt, mud and blood in 2 edition because it took place after great war against Chaos. Empire was in very weak condition many cities in ruins and remnants of Chaos armies lurking in country, BUT it was about resisting Chaos, purging internal and external threats and rebuilding So I disagree with your characterization of Warhammer Fantasy and demand proper review.

[@RPGPundit]

I get what you're saying, but at the meta level the implications are still nihilistic.

[@blackpawlo]

@@RPGPundit This what grimdark is about I think. To stand tall in face of (almost) certain doom You could make video about grimdark genre in general. I think it would be interesting topic 😁

[@paulcooper6048]

CoC- Fighting the inevitable.😈