Making Belgian Candi Sugar At Home

[@ryanarmishaw3305]

I have officially gone down the rabbit hole into the realm of Belgian beer. Scared? yes! Excited? Oh yeah baby!!

[@iamcookbook]

This is awesome! Thanks for making this and explaining the chemistry. It helps a lot. Excited to try this!

[@fredstone9016]

Great video!! I followed your blog didn't know about the video which would have been easier than reading but it was still well put together and everything went well!! This video needs a serious amount of more views!!! Thanks for saving me a bunch of money on my Belgian Dark Strong Ale at 1.099 with 16% sugar. 5 lbs of sugar.

[@cfjeldheim2391]

I just did this and wow! you were right i got the wonderfull cherry toffey and toasty flavor and smell. i used yeast nutrients cause i was all out of DME. took me about an hour. thanks so much!

[@zxcvbob]

I made a batch of this today. Started with 500g of white sugar, 1/2 cup of distilled water, and 1/4 tsp of wheat flour. About 15 minutes into the 130°C step it all seized up. (and I was so proud of myself until that for not stirring and washing down the sides of the pan with a brush and water instead of scraping it) I think crystals from on the candy thermometer seeded it. I added another half cup of water and a teaspoon of dextrose and started over. It was amazingly difficult to get all the sugar lumps to dissolve again. When it got to 130°C this time I removed the thermometer, covered the pan, and turned the fire all the way down. Eventually it was time to add the base, and I use a warm saturated solution of sodium carbonate. It only took a few drops and the color change was dramatic. But also it fizzed up like when you add the baking soda to peanut brittle but more-so. I don't know if that was steam or CO2. I stirred it down, cooked it briefly to between 150° and 155°C and poured it into a pan lined with parchment because I don't have a silicone pan. Not sure what I'll do with it now, maybe just break it up and eat it. 😋

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

Sounds like it went well. If it siezes up you can work more water into it and continue on. Adding 5-10% corn syrup can also help prevent siezing. For the one that worked, it tastes pretty good just as a treat.

[@zxcvbob]

@@SuiGenerisBrewing Add more water and keep going is what I did but it took so much water it was like starting over. I assumed it hydrolyzed the flour and some of the sugar so it should be easier now. I still added some dextrose for insurance. Next time I will add the dextrose right from the start and will do a larger batch so it's easier to control the temperature.

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

I have had a number of viewers/readers comment that they have been having crystallization issues. I've been working on this issue and have found a solution that appears to work. The details can be found in the following blog post: suigenerisbrewing.blogspot.ca/2015/01/quick-simple-invert-sugar.html Let me know how things work out for you!

[@gmhulk3]

+Sui Generis Brewing Hi there, had some crystalization issues aswell, but tried to fix it by adding not cold water, but nearly boiling water/already boiling. Crystalization happens when talking about Sugar + Water in many ways, but the most expressive ones are when you stir up the misture all the time (by bringing the foaming on top to the bottom of the pan) and when you drop the temperature of the misture WAY TOO QUICKLY (which happens when you add cold-water to it). When I used those two "solutions" together, the early crystalization problem got solved. By the way, when I added the Lime, the misture didn't end to get color as fast as your did. Maybe something related to purity of it? Oh, and about the time "used" for invertion, I personally think that it can be cut in half without any problems, that also helps out to prevent the crystalization. There's a specific word in Portuguese for the aspect of the sugar after the Crystalization, it's "Farofa". Search for it, you'll see that it resembles. Well, that's it for today, hope it helps! Cya!

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

Crystallization can be an issue, although its not something I personally worry about much - crystallized sugar dissolves just as well into boiling wort as does syrup. Adding a small portion of fructose (corn syrup), 1-2% by weight, really helps to limit crystallization, even if you do everything else "wrong" (stirring too much, adding cold water, etc). Inversion times are based on candy making standards for non-acidified sugars. I have no idea where they got their numbers from, but they work. Inversion will stop the second you add lime/lye, so you want to make sure it is complete before continuing onto the next step. As for the rate of colour change, that is dependent on many factors - temperature of the sugar (hotter = faster colour change), amount of protein (more = faster), concentration & amount added of the lye/lime solution (higher = faster), whether you use lye or lime (lye = faster)

[@OverturecervejariaBr]

+gmhulk3 I had the same problem with "Farofa" kkkk. I solved only adding more water.

[@OverturecervejariaBr]

May I use chalk instead of lime? If yes, how much dissolved in water? tks

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

Overture Cervejaria Chalk will not work - its not basic enough, nor is it soluble enough.

[@austin2842]

If anyone is having trouble finding lye or pickling lime, go to your local Latin market and ask for Cal Mexicana. It's pickling lime used for corn tortilla production.

[@chalambro]

Great video, thanks for sharing. What is the concentration and the volume of sodium hydroxide used, or you just used calcium hydroxide in limit of solubilty?

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

I'm using ~1 teaspoon of dry lye (sodium hydroxide) per kilo (2.2lbs) of sugar, although since this video I've gone up as much as 2.5X that with good success. Just make sure you dissolve it in water before, as you'll not get good incorporation of the lye if you throw in powder. Pickling lime needs (in theory) about double the volume compared to lye. I've not tried this one much (pickling lime is hard to find in Canada), so I cannot comment on how well it compares to lye.

[@stephens4490]

@@SuiGenerisBrewing I just tired with calcium hydroxide, used about 3g in with 1.6kg sugar and around 400g water. Couldn't get it to the colour in your video. I felt i messed this up some how other than using calcium hydroxide, Maybe I used too much spraymalt(25g)? , it was super foamy like at least double of the foam in your video, then it got too thick also so i had to add more water.

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

@@stephens4490 If it is too foamy, that is a sign that you are heating it too intensely; it also sounds like you have too much spraymalt - I typically use 1-2% by weight.

[@stephens4490]

@@SuiGenerisBrewing You're certainly right. I was planning to make a quadruple but this sugar doesn't have the roasted flavours. Should I try again or could i add like coffee or maybe cacao nibs to provide these flavours?

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

@@stephens4490 it took me 5 or 6 tries before I got my first good batch of candi sugar, and while I hope my video would accelerate your process, making candi isn't easy and you may need to try a few times more before it works. That said, quads usually aren't very roasty, with the candi sugar providing more of a raisin/dried fig and caramel notes. You can get a similar character using malts like special b and Abby malt.

[@oliverekeland7003]

Hi, I tried making candi syrup with 5% each of fructose and dextrose and the rest sucrose with 4 grams (1tsp) of DME. Heated to 140C +-5C and added 0.8 grams of NaOH which had been mixed in 20ml of water. Kept the sugar at 140C for 35 min and 160C for 10 min ish. What I ended up with was something I would describe as a very smooth caramel syrup. Perhaps something you could say has some fruit in the aftertaste. But it still has far from as much fruit as D-90 or D-180. Is there anything I can do to make the syrup more fruity? Increase the amount of reducing sugar or NaOH?

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

You could try more base and a longer cooking period. I go by colour, not time. D90 should be dark-brown bordering on black when spotted on a plate like I do in the video. D180 will be charcoal-black.

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

Also, the amount of time you used is on the shorter side. I don't think I've ever done less than 20 or 30 minutes at 160C. For darker Candis, 45 min to an hour would be typical with my stove and setup.

[@oliverekeland7003]

@@SuiGenerisBrewing I will try to increase to 1.2 grams of lye. Even with 10% dextrose/fructose, there is a lot of crystallization after 20 minutes at 140C. So I thought I'd try with 50% golden syrup (which I think only consists of reducing sugar?). It contains 0.1 gram of salt. Hope it's not a problem.😆 The syrup was a little lighter than D-90. But more flavor🤷🏻‍♂️

[@NevetsTSmith]

great video, and I like your choice of music

[@stubbyhobbs]

I have now made Belgian Candi 3 times.The basis was your refined process. Not everything works to my satisfaction yet, there is still a need for improvement: 1. despite glucose syrup (made from dextrose boiled with distilled water), the syrup still crystallises strongly 2. I decant lye in 3x10ml tubes, which was prepared with 2.2g Ca(OH)2. Problem: Ca(OH)2 dissolves very badly. - how do I prevent crystallisation more effectively? - how do I dissolve Ca(OH)2 better? I prefer liquid syrup and don't like candy. The model is the Premium Candi Syrup. The taste is formidable, bready and fruity at the same time, very strong taste and smell of plum and sultana. Next target would be a Belgian syrup like the Premium Candi Syrup D-180, very dark. You'll probably have to work with molasses. Thanks in advance for your tips.

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

I don't worry about crystallization anymore, as I covert everything to syrup after. Adding fructose (corn sugar) can help, as can minimizing the amount you stir and limiting over-heating. That said, I add half the weight in water of the starting sugar at the end to make a syrup, which dissolves anything crystallized. As for the CaOH2, it dissolves poorly in water, so thr solution will be cloudy when you add it to the sugar. Which is why I prefer sodium hydroxide, which is much more soluble.

[@stubbyhobbs]

@@SuiGenerisBrewing Wonderful. I did it right intuitive: I added also water at the end. Also I stir the rest of crystallized sugar with some sugar. Maybe the Na(OH)2 is a good hint. We have fructose here, but it is not made from maize, but from wheat. I stick to dextrose and increase the addition. Thanks again for the quick reply. Happy brewing!

[@narayanmanepally2816]

Thanks for your video. Nice work. Was wondering if I could use wort instead of DME. Getting access to DME sitting here in India is a pain. Was thinking of using 8-10 tablespoons of wort instead of 1 Tbsp of DME. Your thoughts? Cheers.

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

Wort should be fine - all you are looking for is a protein source; in fact, DME has a tendency to clump, leading to crystalization, so a liquid like wort may be superior. Others have tried yeast nutrient and even yogourt, with success.

[@narayanmanepally2816]

Sui Generis Brewing Thanks very much. Will let you know how my experiments work out. Cheers

[@theferalpaladin4350]

Lye works to create the melanoidin reaction, but Ive seen many recipes use citric acid, does this do the same thing? What about baking soda.

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

Citric acid promotes caramelization, which had a very different flavour profile to malliard reactions. Baking soda is not basic enough, you really need lye or pickling lime to make it work well.

[@zxcvbob]

It's me again 🙂 How do you store the candy? And do you break it apart first? One more question: have you tried using sodium carbonate (not bicarb) for the base? Thanks.

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

I almost always make it into syrup now. Once the candi is done, stir in a half-weight of cold water, then pour into a container.

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

Charles, for some reason I cannot reply directly to your post. I'm happy to hear this worked well for you, its nice to know that the stuff I worked out also works for others. If you see this, would you mind commenting on whether you got a minerally flavour as well? Some have reported this with yeast nutrient, but none (AFAIK) using my particular method of making the sugar.

[@JanusKastin]

Thanks for the video. I've made the light amber version using cream of tartar before to use in a golden strong ale. Your version looks a lot better for the quad I'm going to make next. Does the recipe scale up so that I can make a larger batch and then store it for later use?

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

Yep, everything scales linearily. Just make sure you use a pot 3 or more times bigger than your mixture so ot doesn't boil over

[@JA-yk4ix]

Would using sodium carbonate (pH 11) work? That can be made very easily from baking soda...

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

No, it is not strong enough of a base. It has a pKb of ~3.5; you need something with a pKb of

[@CerveceroChapin]

I don't really have access to homebrewing supplies in my country. I'm wondering if I can use boiled baker's yeast instead of yeast nutrient/DME?

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

I imagine that would work fine - after all, yeast nutrient is simply destroyed yeast.

[@musicbymark]

Sui Generis Brewing I thought yeast nutrient is largely urea?

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

***** Not usually. Diammonium phosphate (DAP)-style yeast nutrients is a pure chemical that is sometimes mixed with urea - personally, I don't like the candi sugar that comes from that (mine is pure DAP though, no urea). The other 'kind' of yeast nutrient is typically hydrolysed yeast (yeast heated under acid conditions to break them down). This will be a complex mix of amino acids, nucleotides, lipids, minerals and other yeast substances. You can tell them apart rather easily; the DAP is white, the other stuff is tan-to-brown.

[@БорисБорисов-ф3е]

Hi! I want to ask you. You are inverted saccharose by heating ( 125-135 C) ??? without citric acid? ( sorry I dont know english well) And you said that you used calcium hydroxide! It is for what? for correct solution pH? Thanks!

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

Борис Борисов I don't add citric acid as that would prevent the formation of the flavours I am looking for. The sugar will spontaniously invert when ou heat it wihout citric acid - but it takes longer. The calcium hydroxide (you can also use food-grade sodium hydroxide) is added after the inversion of the sugar to accelerate the flavour-creating Malliard reactions.

[@БорисБорисов-ф3е]

Thanks you so much !!!

[@stephengarwell8386]

Really love your videos, my yeast bank is growing thanks to you. so I have 95% Ca(OH)2 am I correct in assuming that I would need to add 22g of this to 300ml of water to get a solution I could use for this process ?

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

A 1 molar solution would be 77g/L at 95%, so for 300 ml you would want 24 g (22 g at 100%). That said, 300 ml is a lot of solution, and given how caustic it is I'd suggest making a much smaller amount. Keep in mind that you only need 15-30 ml per kilo of sugar. I'd also be concerned about the other 5% - is it a food grade product? If not, I'd be careful to ensure that the other 5% isn't something toxic.

[@stephengarwell8386]

@@SuiGenerisBrewing thank you for replying, yes it is food grade, I can store it safely no kids.

[@smaster15]

Thanks so much for making this video! It's exactly what I've been looking for. There are so many-what I would like to say-lazy videos on this where the person just makes inverted sugar and calls it Belgian candi sugar. Thank you for being true to the product! Question: Have you ever tried to make this using a sodium bicarbonate solution as the alkaline solution? I understand it's a much weaker alkaline, I am just wondering if it is possible to obtain the same results with something less caustic. Also, I have no clue how you manage to maintain stables temps with your burner; I have the same one, and if I leave it on for too long, it attempts to reach the temperature of the sun!

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

Sodium bicarbonate is not strong enough of a base - you'd ruin the flavour of the candi long before you got to the right pH. As for the stove, practice, practice, and practice some more. As a general "rule ", heat on medium heat until you get to about 10C below toyr desired temperature, then turn the burner right down. It'll take a while to get to the right temp, but it will get there. The issues with these elements is they hold a lot of heat, so they'll continue to pass heat onto your pot long after you've turned the element down.

[@smaster15]

@@SuiGenerisBrewing Thank you for these tips! I look forward to trying my hand at making this again. The previous recipe I had used had left with me with a decent product, but it definitely wasn't Belgian candi syrup-I ended up with a deep dark, rich, smokey syrup, so I am eager to start smelling some plums/chocolate in my kitchen!

[@saraswatadatta758]

I have followed every single step exactly as shown but my sugar starts caramalizing when it hit around 120 C, i kept stirring vigorously but it did not stop the caramalization from taking place. Need help.

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

Some caramelization is normal - by the end of the inversion step your sugar will likely be a modest tan in colour. That is normal. If your sugar is going darker than that, then you likely have your heat on too high and are scorching the bottom of the pot. Slow and steady!

[@saraswatadatta758]

@@SuiGenerisBrewing Thank you so much for the quick reply. Will try turning the heat down. Another problem i figured is that i was using a shallow pan, causing the water to evaporate rapidly. Will try again now. Thanks again.

[@saraswatadatta758]

@@SuiGenerisBrewing I figured out what was going wrong, i was making it with DAP and due to that the sugar was getting caramalized/burnt at 120C range. So i added the DAP later on after the inversion process, along with the alkali (pickling lime in my case) and it turned out perfect. Nutty, Roasty, a hint of chocolate, and lots of plum. The colour was a tad bit less dark than the one you got in this video.

[@slaprakshas]

Isnt it possible to use both acid and base to get desirable ph levels at different stages? I mean adding little tartar in the beginning to speed up inversion and then adding NaOH to get maillard reaction.(I guess the amount has to increase to fight off the already acidic solution)

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

Chinmay Nayak in theory I don't see why it wouldn't work, but its unnecessary. You need ~1% inversion to drive the maliard reactions, the non-acid method in my video gives about 20% inversion. You can skip the inversion step all together if you add 5% fructose up-front. So while adding acid would give more inversion, flavour-wise you're not gaining anything. Obviously, if invert sugar is your goal than adding acid is key.

[@slaprakshas]

Sui Generis Brewing That makes total sense. Thanks for your reply!

[@radestevanovic1772]

Tnx for this video. I don't have DME, is it really necessary or I can give it a try without it.

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

You need a protein source otherwise it will not work. You could use a small amount of yeast nutrient in place of the DME.

[@Demymaker]

Hi, I had tried this recipe even before finding this video and I can say that it is the best. I confirm that I do not use any acid otherwise the sugar "will burn" even before the development of caramel flavors. Having said that, in Italy (where I write from) I can more easily find ammonium bicarbonate (called ammonia for sweets) instead of lye: I have tried and it seems very good .... any opinion on this? Thank you so much and forgive my bad English!

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

I don't think ammonium bicarb isn't basic enough, but it couldn't hurt to try

[@Demymaker]

@@SuiGenerisBrewing Thanks for your answer. I think some kind of reaction happens because the smell and taste of caramel is incredible ..... if you have the chance I suggest you try .. Thanks again! P.S. I forgot, if you want in the form of a syrup, just add water at the end of cooking (out of the fire) and put it still hot in clean glass jars

[@rimmersbryggeri]

Could you put quantities in weight rather than volumetrics? TBSP isnt the same around the world for example. Love your videos.

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

Follow the link to the blog post at the bottom of the video description. All volumes are in ml/L and g/kg. In this case, a tbsp is 15 ml.

[@rimmersbryggeri]

@@SuiGenerisBrewing I prefer to put everything in weights (metric) because it's unambigious. Imperial and US standard can sometimes clash aswell. But I guess you know about all that allready considering you scientific background.

[@rndm8056]

Great explanation, thanks for that. I'm now just little confused what is clear candy sugar then? Is it just an inverted sugar as with maillard reaction you will always get a more or less dark brown color? The store bought clear candy sugar is...well crystal clear:) Unfortunately your blog is down for the time being...thanks.

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

Clear would just be inverted, then heated to hardball stage (if solid) or diluted to syrup.

[@rndm8056]

@@SuiGenerisBrewing Great, thank you. I've just finished my first test batch - 127-135C for 20min then up to 150C, small amount of citric acid was added at the beginning. Final product is slightly amber in color, which I guess is fine, even though Leffe blonde clone recipe I'm planning to brew calls for a clear candy....don't know how will my candy affect the final EBC, but thats part of the game to experiment:) When I looked for other recipes for inverted sugar (syrup), in some temperature of just 115C is recommened - is that enough to get most of the sugar converted in the presence of an acid? And once again thanks, your channel is an amazing source of information.

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

@@rndm8056 when light candi is called for, you can just use table sugar. No meaningful difference. If you just want to invert it, simply do the inversion step but heat no further. That said, I doubt you'll see a difference in colour or flavour.

[@owenrobins65]

Hi there. Love the post. In my country (Australia) it is illeagal to use lye etc. in cooking or food preparation. Because of this I cant buy it. Do you know or is there alternative that is readily avalible rather than resorting to tartaric or citric acid? Thankyou.

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

+owenrobins65 Calcium hydroxide works as well. The amounts required are quite small, so it may be possible to use non-food grade sources. I.E. reasonably pure calcium hydroxide is sold at many aquarium stores for adjust water balance. Do not use acids of any sort - that will prevent the formation of the malliard products that provide all of the flavours you are looking for.

[@owenrobins65]

thanks for the comment. do you know ruffly what the ph should be/swing to, inn order to create the reaction? also is calcium carbonate a sutible alternative? I know that they do you this in wine making as a ph adjuster. thankyou again

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

I think you're shooting for a pH between 8 and 9, but I cannot for the life of me figure out how you would ever measure that in a molten vat of sugar. As for calcium carbonate, I don't think it would work - it has a pKa of 9, meaning you'd need to add a lot to get to the desired pH. The bases normally used - sodium & calcium hydroxide - both have pKa's between 12 and 13. Baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) may work (pKa of 10), but the amount required may lead to a minerally/salty flavour.

[@scarlethideout]

I can't find food grade lye or pickling lime. Would some other alkalies work, such as baking soda?

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

Unfortunately, no. Basking soda is not alkaline enough to drive the reaction without adding an amount that would give the candi an unpleasant flavour.

[@scarlethideout]

@@SuiGenerisBrewing Alright, thank you for the quick response!

[@austin2842]

I had the same problem but found pickling lime at the local Latin grocery. Ask for Cal Mexicana. They use it for corn tortilla making.

[@antonlovchikov630]

Have you tried applying this technic to beer wort? I guess it should yield much richer flavour than ordinary long boiling or decoction mesh.

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

You cannot get wort to a high enough temperature to produce maillard products. Which is why we make the candi sugar first, then add it to a beer. You need to get to 125-145C to generate the flavours we want. Wort boils at 100C

[@antonlovchikov630]

@@SuiGenerisBrewing true. But my plan is to boil off most of the moisture to get to honey-like texture of the wort. Thus I'll be able to boil it somewhere above 100°. Will it work?

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

@@antonlovchikov630 perhaps, but thats a lot of boiling. It would probably be easier to use liquid malt extract!

[@antonlovchikov630]

@@SuiGenerisBrewing yeah, it'd be a logical shortcut :) Last question. If Maillard reaction's optimum temp is 125-145 °С, does it mean that decoction meshing doesn't contribute all that goodness as all brewing blogs claim? I've tried it many times and the thickest part of the mesh boils at the same 100°.

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

@@antonlovchikov630 I suspect that its mostly a myth, as unless you're scorching part of the mash, you're not going to have maillard products form. Not to mention, typical maillard reactions (nutty, stone fruit, caramel) aren't exactly the flavours of decoction

[@drewcoleman3501]

All the recipes I have found for making Belgian Candy Sugar have instructed to use an acid like lime juice or cream of tartar. I've been following these instructions and making my own BCS for some time now with decent results and haven't questioned it until now. I would like to know how you came to making your recipies, what are your sources, and do you know that this it the way the Belgians make their BCS? Cheers, Alphamanta

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

Alpha manta In the video description are links to two articles on my blog about making candi sugar, complete with links to the various sources I relied on while refining my own method. The coles notes version is that one needs know only a bit of chemistry to understand why using acids are incorrect. Acids as added by candy (as in the treat, not the Belgian sugar) makers to speed the inversion process. However, acids will also accelerate carmelization/burning reactions, and impair the Maillard reactions (reactions between inverted sugars and free amino groups) which form the stone-fruit flavours we are trying to develop.

[@musicbymark]

Sui Generis Brewing You mention here above that ACIDS (lemon, tartar, citric ACCELERATE carmelization, but in the video, you attribute the LIGHT colored sample's lack of carmelization to use of acid. I'm confused ( at: kzbin.info/www/bejne/aGbSmYhufMt0gM0)

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

***** I over-simplified - caramelization can be driven by both acidic and basic pH's, if you are acidic (below 3) or basic (above 9) enough. For that sugar I added the small amount of acid normally used for inverting sugar, which is not enough to drive caramelization, but is enough to inhibit Malliard reactions.

[@JamesSmith-eu2du]

Great video! I made some today using your process. I added 250ml water and 1Kg sugar and heated to the inversion temp range. It did start to crystalise though so I had to add more water. I probably added the same amount of water again during the whole process, just wondered if that was normal? When using candi sugar in place of normal table sugar, Beer Smith states that you need to use 1.25X the amount that you would table sugar. Does this apply to the candi rocks made from this process or does it depend how much water you add during the process? As a lot of the water added will evaporate, I dont know how you know how the candi sugar you make will effect SG? I have about a kilo of dark candi sugar now for use in a quad I want to make. Cant wait as it tastes really good as it is now!!!

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

Crystalization during heating can be due to over-mixing or other issues; you shouldn't need to add much water outside of cooling the sugar. As for the beersmith instructions, I do not know. By weight I would use the same, but by volume it may be less dense. I would be surprised if ~25% of the homemade sugar was non-fermentable, which is what the beersmith instructions assumes.

[@JamesSmith-eu2du]

Thanks for your reply Sui. Yes, I was mixing it a lot as I thought this would help break it up and stop crystallisation! What other issues can cause it? In beer smith it states that 100g normal sugar is equal to 125g candi sugar, although maybe this is due to as you say, it assuming that 25% of the candi sugar is non fermentable. I dont think it will be that high either. In my last Belgian beer I used golden syrup (which is also inverted sugar) and 100% of it fermented. Beer smith also states that 125g golden syrup equals 100g normal sugar, I guess again as they assume it is not totally fermentable. When I was making my candi sugar it did smoke a little bit as well as go a bit crystalised before I added the water. DO you think I may have wrecked the batch? It doesnt look black as it stands, its just dark brown.

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

Taste it - if it tastes really burned I wouldn't use it. I posted an update to the method in the video on my blog which outlines a few things you can do to reduce crystalization and get a more consistent product: suigenerisbrewing.blogspot.ca/2016/03/belgian-candi-sugar-part-iii.html In terms of beersmith, I wonder if those numbers are for candi syrup, not rocks. Syrup would be 20-25% water by weight, which would account for the difference.

[@zxcvbob]

Is the inversion step at 125-135 degrees C instead of 115 C because you don't have an acid to catalyze the reaction? (switching to Fahrenheit mode) I thought hydrolysis took place in the 236 to 240 range. I want to try making invert syrup (the British kind) in canning jars in a pressure cooker at 15 pounds. Will I need to add an acid?

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

Yep, no acid = higher inversion temp required if you want it done in a resonable amount of time. I've not tried the canning method for invert, but I've heard it works but produces some carmelization

[@zxcvbob]

@@SuiGenerisBrewing I want some caramelization, and maybe some browning (might not get browning because it will be inhibited by the acid) I am making British style, hopefully somewhere in the range of #2 or #3. I haven't figured out how much water to add to each jar (with a pound of minimally-processed white sugar) because I know some water is consumed by the reaction. Probably will just use a cup of water, which is too much, because the jars will be sterile; not like honey that needs to be below 20% moisture to keep from spoiling. I can store open jars in the fridge.

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

@@zxcvbob I'd suggest 2:1 sugar:water; this makes a thick syrup that won't spoil, but which also wont crystalize immediately after cooling. Thats 2:1 by weight, not volume. If you try, let me know how it goes!

[@zxcvbob]

@@SuiGenerisBrewing I did try it. I divided a 4 pound bag of cane sugar (very light tan color) into four 1.5 pint canning jars and added 8 ounces of hot distilled water to the first two; that looked like too much water so I added 6 ounces to the others. Added 1/8 tsp of citric acid to each jar. Stirred them up until the sugar was suspended then put them in a big canner (without lids) and processed at 15 lbs for about an hour. When I took them out, they were dark brown; the two jars with more water were slightly darker and the other two had a little bit of undissolved sugar at the bottom where had it settled out. I stirred those 2 up while still hot and assumed it would all seize up when it cooled. Instead the sugar dissolved and all 4 jars got a little darker and almost matched in color... My plan was to end up with 4 pint jars, each with one pound of sugar (closer to 1.5 pounds of syrup) but my syrup was too thin. So I dumped it all into a stainless steel stockpot and simmered it for a half hour to reduce it. And it got darker still. I reduced it a little too far; had 3 full jars and one jar about 1/3 full. The stuff was very thick and tar-like, but it tastes good. Slightly bitter, but not burned at all. This was about 2 weeks ago. I just realized last night that I could transfer enough from the full jars into the partial jar to make them all have about the same amount, then top up with boiling water. So that's what I did last night. Then I put canning lids on them and processed them at 10 lbs for about 20 minutes. Now I have four sealed pint jars of dark invert syrup. I don't know if it's Invert #3, but it's reddish-black... I will take what I've learned here and try to simplify it next time. Use much less water, and cook the syrup on the stove just to dissolve all the sugar. Pour into jars, add hot water to top them up, then process for an hour or so. And will probably use plain white sugar. But that will be a while because I need to use this first.

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

@@zxcvbob Very cool, and thanks for sharing. I'm going to have to give it a go myself!

[@jaimeluiscantu]

How to you make the lye solution? i already have food grade flakes. For soap, its 25% flakes and 75% water.

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

I make a 1 molar solution, which is much less concentrated than what you use for soap. 1 molar lye (sodium hydroxide) is 40 g of lye per liter of water. That's a 25:1 ratio of water:lye by weight. You don't need much; I generally make 1/8th of a cup - 1/8 cup water (30 mL water) and 1.2 g of lye. That's enough for a few kilos of candi sugar.

[@jaimeluiscantu]

@@SuiGenerisBrewing I haven´t heard about molar solution since high school. : ) thanks for the conversion.

[@cozaki]

Hey awesome video. I am a bit confused though. I guess by melanoidin reactions you mean maillard reaction thats why you add the amino acids. But in this case you want to promote maillard reaction or caramelisation? i guess doing the sugar inversion you break down sucrose to fructose and glucose thus caramelization temperature is lower. When you have free glucose and fructose, you ll have some caramelization even when you re aiming for maillard reaction. But my question is, which reactions is preferable for this or at which ratio you would like maillard and caramelization to occur. Do you have to go that dark since caramelization will convert all sugars and bitterness will be the taste left? I am quite new at making beer, and belgian beers are my favorite so you can see my need for belgian candi.

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

Malliard is what I meant. The reason we invert is that sucrose is not reactive with amines, and you need to break it into its component saccharides to release the "reducing sugar" minosaccharides to enable the reactions

[@cozaki]

@@SuiGenerisBrewing true i totally forgot that sucrose is non reducing :S, while its two monosaccharides are reducing especially fructose which promotes maillard extremely fast. Thank so much for the quick reply as well. have an awesome day

[@oliverekeland7003]

The caustic soda I get here is 99% NaOH. Is this pure enough to be called food grade?

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

Depends on what the 1% is. What was it sold for? If for soap making, food equipment cleaning, or baking, it should be fine. If it's toilet cleaner/etc, I'd be wary.

[@oliverekeland7003]

@@SuiGenerisBrewing It is sold for cleaning, but also this Norwegian "Lutefisk" (fish).

[@estebanuriz]

Hi! Again some questions related to dry lye. Is it sodium hydroxide? I googled a bit and find out that sodium hydroxide (known in my country as "soda caustica") is used as an industrial cleaner that can cause serious burns to the eyes and skin... Am I confusing the product? Is it proper for human consumption?

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

Lye is sodium hydroxide, AKA caustic soda, and yes, it is a highly caustic chemical used as an industrial cleaner (including in most commercial breweries) and can cause serious chemical burns if spilled on your skin/eyes/etc. Food-grade lye is the same chemical, and is used to drive browning reactions - for example, traditional German pretzels are dipped in lye to help develop the dark-brown colouration as they bake. The lye is consumed during the baking process, so none makes it through to the final food product. Unfortunately, for candi sugar preparation you do need a strong base such as lye. There are alternatives (pickling lime, potassium hydroxide, wood ash lye), but all of those are near-equal in their corrosives. So if using any of them be very careful to not spill any on yourself, and prepare only the minimal volume you need. You need very, very little (you will need about 1 tablespoon of a 30g/L solution), and the lye will be consumed as you cook the sugar. Be careful not to add too much lye, as any excess can carry through to the final sugar.

[@estebanuriz]

Thanks Sui Generis for your answer. I've reading your blog and you did a really great job! I wonder if using Baking Soda instead of Lye might work ... What do you think about it?

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

esteban uri baking soda wont work as it is not alkaline enough to drive the melanoidin reactions

[@percyandersson1559]

hi Great video one question about lye added what is the amount of NaOH you use to 1kg of suger

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

+Öjvind Davidsson A very small amount - roughly 1 tablespoon (15 ml) of a 1M NaOH solution. 1M NaOH = 40g of NaOH dissolved into 1L of water.

[@percyandersson1559]

Thanks. Tried this once unfortunately everything crystalllized had to redo any comment how to aviod.

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

Adding a small amount of corn sugar or corn syrup (fructose) helps - 1-2% by weight is enough. You can also try to minimize the amount of stirring. Crystallization isn't too big an issue though; it'll still go through malliard reactions.

[@RandallSmith0x0]

Really great video. I have a few questions if you don't mind. How does this compare to the flavor of D-180? How much of this sugar will the yeast digest? Also, I am used to working with a liquid sugar. Is there a way to keep this in a liquid form? Thanks!

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

1) Flavour can be very similar to D180 - stone-fruit/dried fruit notes alongside some caramel character. The "trick" is to taste the candi as it cooks, and to stop the cooking process once you've reached the desired character. To sample, drop a small amount of the sugar (a few drops off of a spoon) into a cold cup of water; let harden than taste. Never sample the hot sugar directly. 2) Fermentability is high - 95-98%, I usually get 1.045-1.048 PPG. 3) Liquid sugar is super-easy to make (even easier than what I do in this video). Once you get to the desired colour/flavour, turn off the heat and carefully and slowly stir-in boiling water (e.g. avoid the hard-crack step). Continue adding water until the desired thickness of syrup is prepared; usually you need roughly the same amount as the volume of water you used for the initial dissolving of the sugar. Since posting this video I've made some improvements to the method. They can be found in the blog post at the following link: suigenerisbrewing.blogspot.ca/2016/03/belgian-candi-sugar-part-iii.html The method for making a syrup is detailed in this blog post - the method is the same for candi sugar as it is for invert: suigenerisbrewing.blogspot.ca/2015/01/quick-simple-invert-sugar.html

[@RandallSmith0x0]

Thanks! Just a few more questions. Is it possible to omit the lye/lime and increase the cooking time? From my reading, increasing the pH seems to speed the maillard reaction up and Candi Syrup, Inc. claims to only use "natural" ingredients and no preservatives. If not, would baking soda work? Also, what amount of candi sugar will I get for a given amount of sugar used? Thanks for the answers!

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

In theory you can eliminate the base (lye or lime); in practicality you cannot. The issue is simply one of time - without the base you will need to maintain heat for 12 or so hours, which isn't practical at this scale. Baking soda will not work as it is not alkaline enough and has poor solubility in sugar. That said, food-grade lye (sodium hydroxide) is often considered "natural", and is used extensively in making "natural" soaps and for browning "natural" breads. If you really want to go all-"natural" you can make your own potassium-lye (potassium hydroxide) by boiling ash from a hard-wood fire in soft or distilled water for 30 min; let the ashes settle out and skim off the liquid - the liquid is lye. This is how lye was made historically. Potassium-lye is not quite as basic as sodium-lye, but the difference is so negligible as to be meaningless. I do not know if this form of lye will affect the taste, but given the minute amounts you need (about 1ml per 0.5kg of sugar), I doubt there would be a flavour effect. Its hard to answer the "amount" question - in theory, you should loose less than 1% of the initial mass of sugar - that lost

[@RandallSmith0x0]

Sui Generis Brewing Thanks again!

[@thanhtungvlogs88]

can you give me the full name of DME and food acid so i can buy it locally . Thanks so much

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

@@thanhtungvlogs88 dme = dried malt extract. Acid can be lactic acid or citric acid

[@Mrgasman1978]

hi brian. i have a question: i made 6kg of candi sugar cause when i make them i want to make for long time. i added around 5 grams of food grade pickling lime. now i know that pickling lime is not very healthy if ingested, so i am wondering if is ok for me to brew adding for example 1kg of candi sugar that contains about 1gr of pickling lime. Do u think it won't harm?

[@Mrgasman1978]

ah...since pickling lime does not disolve i added mixed in water but i haven't waited for it to sit at the bottom of the glass. with this method i can hit the maillard reaction with much less water and then start to raise temp for browning it.

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

+Gasman super For a 1kg batch you should need less than 1g of lime; indeed, you probably need closer to 0.1g. Lime is poorly soluble in water - a saturated solution is 1.5g/L. I'd suggest making such a saturated solution and adding it drop-wise to the sugar until the colour change begins. That should be sufficient. For comparison, lye (sodium hydroxide) is much more soluble; I still make a weak solution (0.1M, ~4g/L), and only use a a tablespoon or two of that. For lime, your solution is about 1/4th as concentrated, but is almost as alkaline, so you should only need ~4X the volume (a few tablespoons) to achieve the same end.

[@Mrgasman1978]

+Sui Generis Brewing oh, thanks a lot. so u suggest me to use, let's say 1 gram per liter, mix thoroughly and let it drop. then use that saturated solution untill the maillard happens?

[@Mrgasman1978]

+Sui Generis Brewing i mean maybe i add 2 grams per liter and mix till i get it well saturated. then i start using that liquid. why you think is not very wise to add the powder inside the pen? is there any problem about adding that powder? btw, i tried both ways, alkaline candi sugar and citric acid and i have to say that this method is just out of this world. the flavours, tastes and scents are 100 times better in alkaline solution.

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

+Gasman super Exactly; make a saturated solution (2g/L will do it) and add that to the heated sugar. I don't know what you mean about adding the "powder inside the pen". If you mean adding the powder directly to the sugar, do not do that - the powder will not dissolve and you'll end up with little chunks of pickling lime in your sugar.

[@Ticianito]

That's great very clear explanation! Good music in the background :P And thanks for using the metric system , the rest of the yanks should adopt it finally (not much hope for the UK haha)

[@stubbyhobbs]

What is lime exactly - do you have a formula? Is this CaCO3?

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

Pickling lime is food-grade calcium hydroxide (Ca(OH)2) It is not lime the mineral, nor lime the fruit.

[@stubbyhobbs]

@@SuiGenerisBrewing Wow - very fast answer. Thank you. I own CaOH2, but I'm not sure that it is working well. Do you have a recommendation how I can test it? What do you understand by chalk - is this CaO, CaOH2 or is is CaCO3? Pickling lime: all the translations in Germany are wrong. It is always translated as CaO!

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

@@stubbyhobbs CaCO3 is not what you want to use - that is limestone, not pickling lime. Being in Germany you should be able to get food-grade lye (sodium hydroxide), which is what is used to brown bretzels. Lye is superior to lime for making candi sugar.

[@stubbyhobbs]

@@SuiGenerisBrewing Thank you again. I own both lyes - CaOH2 and NaOH2. I prefer pickling lime. Sodium hydroxide is strongly corrosive, especially on wood and on the hands if you make original pretzels.

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

@@stubbyhobbs Ca(OH)2 is just as caustic. Sadly, you need a strong base to get the malliard reactions to work.

[@lacaval]

Can this be done without a thermometer?

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

Possibly, but I don't think you would get as consistent results as with a thermometer. The biggest thing to avoid is temps that are too hot - at too high a temperature the sugar will quickly burn, becoming acrid & unpalatable. If you can avoid that, it should be OK.

[@lacaval]

Sui Generis Brewing I bought a candy thermometer and tried this, but my sugar got burned and resulted a black, a little bitter, sugar. I respected the temperatures, and i tested the thermometer with boiling water and it isn't decalibrated. What am i missing?

[@JanMachovec]

how does acids ruin flavor developing? I use 0.1% citric acid, nothing else, and the final candis tastes wonderful

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

Acids drive caramelization reactions and inhibit malliard reactions, so you will end up with a very different tasting product. Essentially, acidic mixtures will not develop the dried fruit and nutty notes.

[@JanMachovec]

@@SuiGenerisBrewing I think it's the presence of malt and other ingredients that makes nutty flavours, not absence of acid. sugar itself won't ever maillard react as there are no molecules that can react in that matter

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

@@JanMachovec If you watch the video, you'll see that I add a small amount of DME which acts as a protein source, thereby driving malliard reactions. Without it, this would just be a very inefficient way of making caramel.

[@MSKChess]

what can i use instead of Lye?

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

+MSK Chess Pickling lime.

[@MSKChess]

Hmmm i think these are kinda American things, i dunno if we get them here in the UK. They are both alkali right? Also why don't you advocate the use of acid? would something like lactic acid not be ok?

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

Acid prevents maliard reactions, so you'll get fairly plain-tasting invert sugar instead of flavourful; candi sugar. Pickling lime is available in the UK: www.amazon.co.uk/Mrs-Wages-Pickling-1-Pound-Resealable/dp/B0084LZU1Q

[@MSKChess]

Ok thanks so much, the link costs £6.83 + £12.85 UK delivery which is about $30 for 450g. It seems to me and please correct me if I am wrong that pickling lime is Calcium hydroxide which i can get fairly easily at a more cost effective rate. I have plenty of DME which I use for yeast starters. I really fancy having a go at this because i had planned on attempting to caramelise some wort and add it back but its quite a tricky process and I think that making dark candi sugar as you have admirably demonstrated in the video could impart some caramel flavours that I am looking for more easily. What do you think? I really appreciate you taking the time - regards Robert.

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

You don't get too much caramel flavour from candi sugar; in fact, the conditions which make candi tend to impair caramelization. Candi gives more of a stone fruit (plum, raisin) character. Caramel is much easier to make: whatscookingamerica.net/Sauces_Condiments/CarmelizingSugar.htm

[@scottbruffy9071]

Hypothetically, I accomplish all this; is it for a 5 gallon batch of beer? To taste? Maybe it's mentioned in the comments, but I just wrote extensive notes and what do I do now with it? "Keep stirring!" I also feel like I'm gonna set a small fire in my kitchen, although it is perfect weather to brew out in the garage. Ramblings. I need to brew a gluten-free, few-gallon batch. Flavor, low ABV, low IBU, no gluten. For a friend. And a challenge accepted. It absolutely has to be absolutely devoid of the evil gluten. Been looking up sorghum recipes and this came up. Thank you all, much love love. Cheers!

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

Generally, you add as per a recipe. This style of sugar is used in a bunch of Belgian style beers, so I'd find one of those and prepare sugar to match. For use in beer, the easiest thing to do is turn it into a syrup at the end. Once the desired colour/flavour is reached, kill the heat and carefully stir in 3/4 of the sugars weight in cold water. This will create a syrup that can be easily added to a beer.

[@paologugliuzza6766]

This is,nt Belgian candi sugar, but only caramel sugar. After inversion you need to use an ammonium salt or ammonium bicarbonate. Excuse for my little english, ciao Paolo

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

You are incorrect. To make candi sugar (e.g. sugar with mallard products) you need a reducing sugar and an amine source. The amines react with the reducing sugars, producing the malliard products which provide the candi with its flavours. The initial 30 minute heating phase outlined in my video is where sugar inversion occurs, providing reducing sugars. The DME which is added to the mix provide proteins, which contain amides, which then react with the reducing sugars is the later/hotter stage of the process. My method fairly closely mimics what happens in commercial candi sugar production facilities, which rely on the trace proteins left in beet sugar after processing for an amine source. I and others have tried ammonium chloride and other amminoium-based salts, and they produce a less flavourful and sometimes unpleasant (e.g. ammonia-scented) candi. They do work, but not as well as when you use a protein source for your amides. The chemistry and links to many other experimental sites can be found in the blog articles associated with this video.

[@paologugliuzza6766]

As ok, thanks, Paolo

[@u3pyg]

A lot easier instead of lye and lemon juice to use DAP.... I make it with DAP for years. DAP breaks from the heat to ammonia and phosphoric acid, the acid inverts the sugar and the ammonia makes the mallard reaction. Simple as that.

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

I cover this is my associated blog posts. DAP alone will not give you maliard reactions, as the acid inhibits malliard reactions and instead biases them to caramelization reactions. Moreover, I've found DAP to give an unpleasant ammonia character in many cases. The 2-stage process I use ensures that you get formation of reactive sugars and an appropriate pH for the reactions.

[@bloombrews]

After youtubing Your great Vidio, I had to go dig my old notes out....I used, what was very hard to find back in 1998; Belgian Candi hard Suger! I used 3# clear candi suger from "Brewer's Garden", at a cheap price of $3.27/lb.! Years....later..I Aways thought, that the "Monk" bier, came from the Yeast..... Now I have to go "cook" some "crack"...........OMG! I will NEVER stop Learning some "Trix"....Thank YOU, for making me want to make my Own "Beet Suger"! or sompin?? Now the "Mystical" rocks can be in Your next - Saint Bruin (My Dog...here!

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

I'm glad you enjoyed the video!

[@jolachgh]

hey Sui Generis Brewing, I have a few questions. how strong should the acid be? I have found calcium hydroxide but how strong solution is the product you use? and how will the alkaline candi sugar effect the beer PH? and last, please don't take this the wrong way, but do you have a chemistry background? I am only asking because I want to be absolutely sure what I am making is completely safe.

[@leandrocosta5072]

After add the pickling lime and stir It this happend: photos.app.goo.gl/tkn1WMqcXzxt8nKj7. What may have happend? Maybe I've used too much DME (1 tablespoon for 600g of sugar).

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

It crystalized. You may need to add more water while you heat

[@leandrocosta5072]

@@SuiGenerisBrewing Does it change the final result?

[@SuiGenerisBrewing]

@@leandrocosta5072 adding water won't (just stir in a tablespoon into the hot sugar every few minutes). A lack of water is worse, and you can end up with burnt sugar instead of candi

[@leandrocosta5072]

@@SuiGenerisBrewing Thanks a lot!!! Of course I'll try again soon. Great video, valuable knowledge.

[@AndJusTIceForRob]

5:39 These are not the melodroidens you are looking for.

[@joverstreet24]

Robert Locke Don’t tell us what aren’t without telling us what are, please.

[@AndJusTIceForRob]

@@joverstreet24 Not sure what that means, but this was a Star Wars joke.