Making Guitar Double Tops with Nomex Part 1 - Luthier Tips du Jour Episode 46

Constructing a composite top soundboard using Nomex - part 1.
Luthiers Mercantile International offers the largest selection of tonewoods, professional tools and parts for the custom guitar builder. Visit us at www.lmii.com/
Products used in this video:
Nomex - www.lmii.com/799-nomex
System Three 2 Part Epoxy - www.lmii.com/73-pore-fillers/...
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[@rb032682]

Cool stuff. I didn't know this tech was being used for acoustic guitars.

[@johnlay3040]

I think the reason why the honeycomb structure works is because it forms air cells in between the two thin sheets of wood. It's effectively like hundreds of micro drums (or banjos if you like) sitting next to each other. That's why it is so loud.

[@echoguitarist]

I have a double top Eastman. (DT3-OM). It's an amazing guitar. Very loud with super sustain. It has a very even tone with great note separation. I highly recommend looking into them.

[@BlackBearFilms]

I just bought one. I became interested initially because I had the top of a Collings CJ crack when I moved from cool, humid San Francisco to the hot, dry San Fernando Valley (Los Angeles), and read that a DT top is resistant to cracking. Also I like to use 10-48 strings, close to the string set on my electrics, and in the demos I saw they seemed to have more resonance and volume in side-by-side demos. Your brief review is spot on.

[@gfghjfgfghfj]

Fascinating! I would love to know how this would apply to an archtop with f-holes.

[@j.dietrich]

Steve Andersen has made a video about his double top archtops: kzbin.info/www/bejne/m6e6m4isi8-nhNU

[@lenrichardson5183]

I worked at Gibson Accustic in MT for years and we did the lamated tops on some of the guitar line's , to me those tops weren't as good as thay could have been. This would have been a major improvement to the process.

[@JMCustomGuitars]

just a question, the outer line , periphery if the soundboard, if as , wood nomex wood wen do the biding will not bear? 0.6 mm, nomex with empty spaces + 0.6mm will be enough to the router? I dont know but I believe wen the router starts to work there the wood will chip..I'm I wrong?

[@Vahid.flamenco]

also, what do you mean if you have coarse grit paper on the sander we have to leave about 5 thousand extra on does measurements? how to calculate and do this? I do appreciate it to help me to understand this issue better.

[@OBrienGuitars]

If you are using a course grit paper on your sander then you need to compensate for this by leaving the top a little thicker so that you can sand out the course grit marks.

[@Vahid.flamenco]

@@OBrienGuitars Thank you very much

[@alejandronava6110]

where can I buy the Nomex?

[@Bob-of-Zoid]

From Nomexicans! 🤪 Actually you can get it from your local aircraft builder supply store. Or just maybe from the same places you buy other guitar building supplies. Why ask here and wait a few weeks for someone to answer, when all you have to do is put "Nomex" in a web search and have an answer in seconds? I bet you will find it in single sheets or rolls of differing sizes, different mesh sizes, different quantities and sold by many places, and even specifically for guitar construction, exactly as one can expect.

[@johnlay3040]

I think sooner or later, a big manufacturer like Yamaha will find a way to mass-produce a double top material with nomex or balsa so other manufacturers or luthiers can purchase this material to make very good guitars cheaply. That will be a very good for the fate of the guitar in this world. Also good opportunities for all guitar enthusiasts to have good instruments followed by proliferation of good guitarists all over rhe world. That will make Segovia's dream comes true.

[@theunheardprophet4315]

But this will ruin the luthiers' job?

[@rebecca4522]

​@@theunheardprophet4315 it won't. There was a time when all luthiers seasoned and cut their wood blocks to all the necessary components. Now all can be purchased as seasoned or stabilised sheets whether solid or laminate, ready to be cut to shape and finished. Neck blanks are available, so are bent sides, kerfed strips, notched fretboards, braces etc etc. It won't be a surprise that some, will make a living in what amounts to individual luthier assembled guitars than hand made and crafted, commissioned luthier guitar creations. Industrial double tops will just be another component choice.

[@johnlay3040]

@@theunheardprophet4315 No, there are more to guitar making than just material. But the acquisition of a reasonably good guitars would be easier though, as they can be manufactured in large quantity cheaply. I imagine that under US$1000 we would then be able to buy what we now call the "concert standard" instrument. For example, Yamaha makes good guitars with laminated top under $200 now, if they substitute the laminated top with "manufactured" Nomex top, the resulting guitar would be much better. Although the Dammann design is hard to copy in mass production, but I believe it is possible to work out a simpler design. It might not be as good as Dammann's, but much better than normal laminated-top.

[@rjlchristie]

Your claims to this technology producing the same "tonality" as traditional tops is subjective and many would (and do) disagree. I believe I can discern between the two technologies about as easily as I can discern spruce vs cedar and traditional vs lattice - at least I can in recordings (i.e. with reasonable consistency and accuracy). Putting volume and dynamic range aside they sound distinct. Some listeners and players like it better, others don't. We are not yet at the point where all is equal but for greater dynamic range.

[@littlemissmac4997]

that's a bold claim to make and one that in and of itself - absent evidence - is purely subjective.

[@Bob-of-Zoid]

@@littlemissmac4997 He is making the very point that what sounds good (or bad for that matter) is subjective, and may I add with a wide range in between! Good to me may not be good to you, and He's absolutely right: One size does not fit all! As for it needing "evidence" Try biophysics (the structures that make up the parts and shape of your ears, even your whole head), psychology in how differing sounds and characteristics thereof effect you vs someone else and how your brain can processes them differently, and then some! It is absolutely evidentiary that it is subjective, even if that subjectivity has it's roots in and is based on physics!

[@eaman11]

That's crazy, can't this guys buy a CNC to cut stuff?

[@Bob-of-Zoid]

How is that crazy? How many people can afford a CNC, and I don't mean a rickety pile of crapola, but something tough and versatile? Just because you were born into money or cannot appreciate good hand craft, doesn't mean there's something wrong with being not well to do or having a preference to practice their craft by hand.

[@eaman11]

@@Bob-of-Zoid dude it costs you 150 to get a laser to cut few millimeters of wood, at least you can draw the shape to cut with a scroll saw. You know nothing about me dude.

[@Bob-of-Zoid]

@@eaman11 I didn't say I knew you (Reading between the lines and putting words in my mouth), but do know that you are disrespectful for calling people dude and making a big deal about nothing. Many of us luthiers cut solid tops with nothing but a knife, and I too see they could just let it overhang and cut off the access after gluing the layers together, since it's already in place and won't need to be held to stop it from moving. A saw blade will tear and fray Nomex and so will sanding, it's why they use a sharp non serrated blade. FYI You may just get a cheep $150 laser head (Not the whole machine) for a CNC: many are convertible between cutting motors, blade holders, and lasers. A good and reliable one you can use for more than 2 or 3 mm or don't have to use 5 minutes at a time for overheating, will cost upward of $250 that's not to say that all CNC's even have a laser driver board and power supply, so add another $500+, additional or liquid cooling $800+ if you can even get one that works with your machine. The cheapest good CNC even large enough to cut a soundboard is around $3000, and that's a freaking toy until you make some pretty expensive upgrades, I mean why stop at soundboards when you can make necks, electric bodies, inlays and stuff for the shop, house, car... too? Lasers are also a fire hazard, especially with thin wood and paper, and wood shops go up in flames way too easily.

[@eaman11]

@@Bob-of-Zoid quote: "Just because you were born into money or cannot appreciate good hand craft.." You don't know me or what I do, you are just an ignorant.

[@fartwrangler]

So, essentially you're advocating for laminated tops.

[@OBrienGuitars]

When people use the word laminate most people think plywood. It is true that we are laminating materials together but it is a honeycomb interior with thin inner and outer veneers. Some people do indeed laminate wooden layers together but that is not the focus of this video.

[@Bob-of-Zoid]

You can laminate sheets and blocks of all kinds of materials, like stone laminates for building exteriors... Laminating is a procedure, not a physical property or specific material. You can make a laminated top out of paper, and have it sound good. There's way more to it than what is traditional for traditions sake (Fear of change), or what "tonewood" (not a real word) snobs religiously believe. It's all about material properties as in physics and construction methods, and at a much wider range of materials (not only woods) and methods than most wood think. Many still don't know that Martin uses the same material circuit boards are made of for most of their instruments sides and backs now, even for some soundboards, and have been doing so for a few decades already! They also do a great job making it look just like rosewood, mahogany and other woods, and many players bought them for the specific wood that is no such thing, and have yet not found out what they really have.

[@jeffbridges7009]

Balsa wood hasa more natural sound than nomex.

[@Bob-of-Zoid]

There is no such thing as a "More natural sound"! Are you suggesting supernatural sound? Sound is our perception of mechanical waves and their power levels, frequencies... Even the sound of a synthesizer is natural, because electromagnetic energy is natural. Sorry but your statement is a false equivalence logical fallacy: "Tonewood" is bullshit, both as a term, as well as in a scientific sense, as it's all about mechanical waves which every material can conduct and be excited to produce depending on it's physical properties and how you excite it, and whether it's man made, or natural has zero to do with that. As a matter of fact a purposely designed material with specific physical properties can be aimed for specific tonality, volume and what not, as can the construction methods of an instrument, and a man made material can also be made to be more consistent vs wood which can have wide ranges of differences from tree to tree. Sure wood guitars sound great, but many people like double Nomex tops better, some like finer lattice bracing, and carbon fiber makes great sounding instruments that can stand up to more abuse, and last for centuries without decay and warping.... Other than that luthiers have made great sounding acoustic guitars out of all kinds of materials including plastics, paper (Laminates with resins as a binder) and composites and other materials, and electrics out of everything from concrete over glass to cardboard which with the same pickups and strings sound nearly identical in tone, but have varying sustain, attack and decay. Most Martins are freaking circuit boards (same material), even many of their soundboards (not all of them), and have been for decades, and many guitar "Tonewood" snobs swear by it without even knowing that it's what their guitar is made of, because Martin found a way to make it look like specific woods so well, and never made any wind about it! Taylor made one completely out of an old shipping pallet that "experts" (fools) couldn't tell from any number of instruments and wood combinations. When asked what they thought they were hearing, most were very sure and confident they heard a sitka spruce top and mahogany sides, others rosewood sides and a ceder top, some Gibson this and martin that and were all over the place without a single one saying it sounded non-traditional. It was soft pine, hard pine or oak, and even included some remnants of nails and staples they carefully kept in place to be seen and recognized. It also has a forklift inlaid on the fingerboard made of yellow plastic as a hint for what it's made of. Differing construction methods can also make great sounding instruments. There isn't a unit of measure for "Good sounding", and good to you may not sound good to the next guy, that's subjective, and one guitar may sound great in one piece of music but not so much in another, and why twelve strings don't work with everything, why Ovations have a unique but still great sound more suitable for certain styles and pieces, and even different tunings bring out different characteristics of an instruments tone that can be the secret sauce of a tune... Variety is the spice of life.