Making Those Last Few Cuts to Your Commander Deck | EDHRECast 181

Those last few cuts to a Commander deck can be tough! How do you go from 105 cards to the final 100?
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[@Chris-qq2cu]

this episode resonates with me. my usual deck building process: Find commander > Add Lands > research EDHrec for generic info > research Scryfall for obscure cards > have list of 150 cards > chop to 105 > grow list back to 115 > get frustrated and finish a previous deck instead

[@politikh]

This. So much this. Except with 200/150 for size, but the idea is the same.

[@skillganon606]

I do that but instead of edh rec I use gatherer, then I realize I've picked over a thousand cards. And then I find a dumb card in that list and build a deck around that.

[@prototyrant369]

I’ve actually been trying to build a kresh fling deck for weeks, so added big creatures, 1/1 counters, sac outlets reamimation . 5th week in I have unnatural growth, xenagos, and extra combat cards with extra attack triggers. This comment is too personal tbh

[@jking6356]

Wow so me, I’ve had like 4 decks out at once with me just having brain malfunctions not being able to decide

[@YaBoyEdGames]

Why is this me right now with my 4 deck concepts being built.

[@mfitkin]

I wish y’all did a whole separate Challenge the Stats show each week where all the challenges fit a cool theme or are all relevant to the previous weeks podcast or something. You guys are just the best and I want even more.

[@tristenoceans]

Dana's Buffet the Vampire Slayer joke almost made me spit out my coffee everywhere lmao

[@davwad2]

That was pretty good. I was expecting a steak/stake pun.

[@erinweston2279]

Both Matt and Joe's reactions to Dana's joke was amazing!

[@decakebaker]

Can we please get a video of Dana's murder board process the next time he builds a deck? I would find that so interesting. I love the way he builds decks!

[@NightOfCrystals]

I like to start with cards I already own so it’s like the first X cards are “free.” But also have the cutting down problem. Commander as a format just demands SO much of each deck.

[@Fimbulvetr2012]

I know this episode is about cutting cards, but the sidebar about pet cards, especially having a particular pet card for each, not every, deck. A card that has been doing work far beyond its budget in my spell slinger deck is Brain in a Jar. It may have a little bit of a buildup, but at the end of the day its a 2 mana artifact that can cheat sorceries out at instant speed for 1 and tap. The fact that what it can cheat out builds with charge counters for each use has actually helped me keep more aware of making a critical mass of building mana values. I was blown away when I looked it up on your site and found less than 500 decks using it despite spell slinging being fairly popular!

[@ConstanceMists]

Facts are being spoken!!!! Cutting from 103 to 100 and 110 to 106 is AGONIZING. But absolutely the BEST part of the brewing process is playing the deck, finding what works what doesnt IN GAME is much more effective than the conversations we have with ourselves at 1am deciding between two different cards and which situations theyd be useful in. Playtest playtest playtest. Even if you think its shit PLAY IT, youll find out lots of good and some bad.

[@Timby_]

Would be interesting if y’all could get access to 101-110 card decks and comparing the lists to the 100 card decks to see which cards statistically don’t make the cut

[@melephs_cap]

I have no friends or local game store to play with, and I own very few of the cards I brew with, but this podcast has been making just brewing for fun a lot more...well, fun

[@AceTrace75]

Matt’s Robert De Niro impression kinda made my day, keep up the good work you guys!

[@Codence666]

I have a bad tendency of researching cards I don’t have that would be great in a new deck, then ordering them all. Waste of money lmao Then I go through my boxes of cards sorted by color for other cards that would fit as well. Usually have to cut around 30 cards at the end

[@CrabBaskets]

Dang, that last bit of advice I need to take to heart as well. I perpetually just like brewing and looking at the deck in Archidekt, and not proxy it / build it and see if it works the way I want to. "Just Do It!"

[@N1ghthavvk]

I actually do put my deck out in front of me and put cards into piles according to their role. And I will rank them within their category. The "best" cards are those which fit into two or even three categories, like ramp & card advantage, or removal & threat. Of course if you want to power up, including mana value in your ranking, helps. If the deck is built around a theme (e.g. Angels), that gives those cards a ranking advantage within the categories they use, e.g. Angel of Finality will be ranked above Tormod's Crypt. This really helps me fine tune any deck. When I'm done it looks more like an interconnected net, and if it doesn't it's probably not where I think it should be yet. Sadly there's no way to do this online. You can sometimes assign "categories" in deck building websites, but basically none allow you to easily move them around "physically". That's where the combination of scryfall, EDHrec, the deck building website, my roughly sorted binders, and the playmats in front of me work together and form my "deck building setup". I can do that for hours on end

[@towelguy]

Sigil of distinction is perfect for Inferno of the Star Mounts (you requip it removing counters so you drop down from 20 power, being able to trigger the ability again and again until you kill the table)

[@jeffreyaltenbern5063]

I resonate with Matt's process. I often struggle with the last 8 to 13 cards of every commander deck I make

[@LunarWingCloud]

I always have a maybeboard. Maybe never an official list of cards, but certainly I keep some cards with each of my decks that I may or may not want to switch in or out.

[@Haschlatte42]

Exactly like me. Always have like 10+ cards for every deck that i switch every now and then

[@thrasherftw]

For sure, just keep those maybes tucked in the deck box with the tokens in case you need them.

[@newworldsound]

Pattern of Rebirth did get reprinted in Ultimate Masters, and with one of my favorite pieces of art in the whole game

[@abrahamchouinard6109]

i gotta say, i put this on while editing my varchild deck just for some inspirational noise, not realizing it was actually gonna help me; the part about "sectioning parts of the deck into themes/directions" helped A LOT. i started sectioning parts of my deck into "equipment/combat buffers"(combat celebrant, shadowspear etc) and "chaos" (furnace of rath, fiery emancipation) and that helped me figure out what themes were becoming over saturated. i realized having whispersilk cloak was bad considering all the other equipments i had, and would have to keep paying 2 to unequip it/equip it.

[@TemurKing1]

Frigging love this show. Great show topic again! Got a fun challenge the stats, need for speed in korvold turn lands into card draw for one mana and give korvold haste all for one mana!

[@thetogtube2]

Echoing Equation is SOOOO GOOOD.

[@Michael-Hammerschmidt]

27:35 It's interesting that you bring up adding Pattern of Rebirth to a Tuvasa deck for tutoring up Nylea's Colossus because I watched this video because I'm trying to make my last few cuts for my Tuvasa Voltron/Combo build and actually had just cut Nylea's Colossus after realizing it has usually been a win more. Just thought it was a funny thing to share. Glad I found this channel, keep up the awesome recommendations!

[@andrewrockwell1282]

I like what Dana said about 5 minutes in. Just cut whatever and get reps in with the deck. Interestingly I think if you are going to do that: cut some of the best cards. Not cards you can't do without. Not the wincons you need to close, but cut your most efficient draw spell. Cut your best removal spell. Want to cut a land? Make it command tower. Put them in a maybe board or something and play the deck. Then when you see things that didn't work, when you find that nonbo you know you have a great card to slot in.

[@clovergannon]

I think my best successes with Second Harvest have been when I used it more as an instant speed populate, when I had only one or two important tokens out, instead of going for the highest number of creatures per mana. Instant speed populate, at worst, and an all out game swinging play at best, for four mana, ain't half bad

[@jacquesdespadas]

The floor really isn't that bad, and it can be a game winner in even moderately good board states.

[@thrasherftw]

If you’re able to make actual good tokens, like copies of your creatures to where you could be getting etb’s, totally worth it. In Volo this would be a slam dunk.. also I play this in a slimefoot deck, his ability to make a saproling costs 4, so even getting two saprolings off second harvest is 4 saved, and the ceiling can be insane.

[@skillganon606]

This should help when I have to cut cards from 16 decks tonight.

[@kellylogs2642]

Personally I sort out the land base later but by default I still make sure I account for putting in 36 lands at the end once I can look at the deck and know what lands I'm gonna want.

[@RyanEglitis]

The one that always gets me is remembering I need to get the list down to 99, not 100, because the commander isn't in the count.

[@LucasTigy2]

on the topic of second harvest, i feel that it's only really useful when you have important tokens to copy. it's not very good for wide strategies with a bunch of no-ability 1/1s, but if you have tokens of something big and/or has a triggered ability, it can give you much more value. doubling 2 1/1 humans isn't too significant, but doubling a 4/4 rhino or a token copy of a creature that has an ETB effect or even just gives your other creatures an additional +1/+1 can be worth the 4 mana

[@jonlane1105]

Someone's prolly already said it but with all the bonus challenges in the last episodes, it sounds like you guys are ready to do a whole challenge the stats episode!

[@mmartak]

Awesome topic

[@noffpoppin]

This video helped me. I was at 105 cards and I figured, well I have a couple cards out of 100 that NEED to see each other to be good. And if one of those two cards isn't the Commander, it just might need to go.

[@Saetanigera]

I want to point out that if you cast Echoing Equation on a board of ten creatures and copy Adrix and Nev each token you create the rest of the turn is 1024 tokens instead.

[@thorpate1698]

I run Fruit of the first tree in my Food deck, it is very solid!!

[@kellylogs2642]

My method to avoid this difficultly is to build carefully up to 100 and then make swaps for anything I want to include badly enough so that at any stage of the process the deck is in a testable condition.

[@Duchess_Van_Hoof]

Concerning Joey's strict categories, I do the same, but I also have a category named Wildcards; specifically for cards that fit well and can turn the game around but are unique in the deck.

[@kylelecomte3803]

Great vid guys 🤘

[@andrewpeli9019]

Yeah, totally agree on second harvest. It's considerably worse than anointed procession or parallel lives which stick on the board and can often have more immediate impact by doubling up attack trigger tokens. Second harvest is either not going to have an impact, or you're going to make a situation that likely calls for a board wipe into on that absolutely merits a board wipe. Without haste for all your creatures, it's pretty unlikely that you're going to get to attack with all the tokens you've made.

[@Tayahmaryanne]

Second Harvest + Academy Manufactor + Tireless Tracker? Have the two creatures down, play a land, get three tokens, play second harvest, get lots of tokens? My Ich-tekik splicer tribal deck is dumb

[@hiddenleaf414]

That’s a good jank value engine but 4 cards just to get that number of tokens isn’t broken or game ending.

[@Tayahmaryanne]

It is when you sac the tokens and power up a golem army ;)

[@supraspintus1124]

What i do is consider what is in your meta. What are the peeps at your local game store or play group doing whifh sometime helps narrow down what you want to put in because some cards may be just as good as others but played less so its more refreshing to see something you dont get to see every day

[@AngelGuillermoGutierrez]

I loved this episode. ironically my first deck i made too powerful for my playgroup but even so i still update it for this purpose even though i rarely play it. the deck bix still has cuts fron previous iterations because i love seeing its evolution from a barely updated precon to ridiculous nonsense

[@skillganon606]

I know that feeling, I got told last week I'm not allowed to build decks anymore.

[@Sucrose_Mother]

This is how my deck building goes. I usually have to cut like 15-10 cards by the end if it. 1) find commander 2) add lands (35 max for me) 3) add staples that are must adds (demonic tutor, rhystic study, teferi protection, mana crypt, sol ring etc) 4) Search EDHREC, Gatherer & scryfall to fill the rest with synergy cards I find. My rule of thumb is > 35 lands minimum. 38 max > 9-10 removal (spot removal & wipes) > 9-10 ramp > 9-10 continueous card advantage > 20 or less creatures depending on the deck. > 15 synergy spells that really advance the deck. > 1-2 fun pet cards if there's space

[@navensimpson6519]

With the mealstom wanderer it’s not the worst thing to have a remand or or other similar counterspells as you get to recast the wanderer.

[@BladeReijy69]

I don't know if this could help anybody, but on my deck builder app (slowly transferring them to moxfield), when I get it down to 110-115 cards, I'll go back through one more time and throw access cards into the Side/Maybe board. That way if I feel like a change needs to be made, I can just look and make a swap from the next few choices I'd pick. Obviously I dont have most of them, but it helps!

[@jaceg810]

I like the idea of sorting in catagories, however it never really works out in my experience, For example, in a yawgmoth aristocrats deck, you have a card that is kind of like a blood artist and a sac to draw cards stapled together. I can't solidly put it in either card draw, drain or sac, its kind of all three, which makes the card good. Same with others, like drain + small scale ressurect. And then there are unique effects that are outliers because they have some strange unque synergy with the commander/strategy

[@speaksincircles]

My process, find commander > choose wincon > wincon Support >add lands > land support > draw support/smoothers > interaction Always end up tryna find cards to make 100

[@Calvimh10]

I am with Dina on this one. You should keep a log of the changes you make to your decks. It can just be as simple as “Removed X and replaced with Y.” I have a change log on all my decks. And it’s super convenient.

[@scaredycat3146]

Can't speak for other deck building tools but atleast deckstats auto-logs every single change you make to a list and allows to directly compare different iterations. Making the effort a non-issue. I wish "just play it" was an option for me. My playgroup meets way to rarely and I have over 30 decks by now. None of them is played as often as it deserves.

[@s4ad0wpi]

Best way to make cuts: Shuffle your deck a few times, then cut the top two!!

[@MutualZebra0123]

I got a deck 2-3 years ago that i still keep changing cards in because it's not good enough, but i do not get to play that often

[@jonhadley5768]

Protip: put sunny on in the background while you make cuts

[@michaelstephens4494]

All three of you are my spirit animal.

[@Nathanael_Forlorn]

When being stuck at 110-130 cards for literal months, are 3am ban waves, where you pull out a big bunch of cards helpful or destructive? ... Asking for a friend ofc.

[@sabrina_thelich6088]

Second harvest in my girhed populate deck and it’s led to some insane turns

[@mtgtinfoilthaumaturge1102]

Second harvest is really good token card. I’m thinking about slotting it into rograhk and thrasios. Dropping dockside getting 10 treasure and using second harvest on last opponents end step to go to 20 treasure then untap is very busted

[@yes.thatjanedoe]

I'm the same with Dana, trying to cut 4 cards and ending up with 108 cards, except its 120+ cards

[@theonedraven8007]

descend upon the sinful will always be my favorite boardwipe

[@whitezul]

So helpful

[@hadeszero4526]

are Edgar and Saron Markov(black vamp walker) brothers?

[@skillganon606]

Edgar is Sorins grandfather, he was the first vampire on Innistrad, and him turning Sorin made his spark ignite.

[@hadeszero4526]

@@skillganon606 that's dope. ty

[@kaitlynstewart7672]

take a shot everytime dana says "get those reps in"

[@skillganon606]

35:08 Objection!!! Solemnity doesn't effect planeswalkers, I've made this mistake.

[@marvinlouiseponce3257]

am a bit guilty about pet cards...still have a phase that i try to stuff "Sigarda, Host of Herons" in all my decks :D

[@bcoble121691]

Talking about going from 112 or 120 is funny to me cause my Krark + Tymna deck is at 114 and I haven't added lands yet 😅

[@mrpopsful]

I was working on my own Python-SQL based MTG deck manager and thought about how to incorporate a changelog into it. .. An AI deck builder is an ambitious idea, and of course the results will be really janky (at first)

[@DoylePrime]

Dana winds the dad joke this week lol damn that was good haha

[@ZakMovesMass]

Second Harvest is a king in Wort the Raidmother. Let's say you have six tokens out. You play second harvest, and tap 6 creatures to conspire three times. The math becomes 6x2x2x2x2 For four mana, at instant speed, you just created 96 tokens. Which is almost always lethal with an impact tremors or purphorose

[@thrasherftw]

You can only conspire once with worts ability.. for a second you blew my mind thinking I’ve been playing the deck all wrong, and I had to check the ruling. It’s in the text on wort.. “you may tap 2 untapped creatures”.. no option to do it multiple times. That said, getting it copied once and getting up to 24 token is still really good. Also you may have other copy abilities in wort, like twinning staff... Or say you have a reverberate type spell, you can copy the reverberate targeting second harvest and copy the second harvest, in that case getting to 96 for just two more mana. Wort is really fun.

[@simoncss1]

Like Matt’s side of try-too-hard. Theme-1st too for me

[@YaBoyEdGames]

My deck building process is currently slimmed down. I try to make the edhrec average deck then try to slim out from there with other interesting thematic cards and stuff

[@JaySharp604]

Might want to update that scrolling card list. Golos is banned... much to my dismay.

[@MageRattigan]

I feel called out and attacked here *shoves pile of sacrifice cards that is theoretically a Korvold deck out of sight*

[@miinyoo]

I don't find this that hard. If it doesn't get me to where I want to go _and_ fit the theme, doesn't matter how good it is, out. I'll get to 100, playtest and it's the swapping cards around that gets me into trouble. What did I want in tests? What didn't I want? Can I be consistent? More efficient? What are my blind spots? That part takes hours of agony.

[@Shulwelld]

I’m all for Dana’s pet card arguments - unless you’re playing cEDH why not play something interesting and synergistic over something technically “better”?

[@felipeguidolin1055]

That's one of the reasons I play at a lower power level... More room for pet cards, more commanders are viable, and less strain on my budget

[@hiddenleaf414]

You can still play to win without playing cEDH. Optimized is probably my favorite level to play at. Your decks are still optimized, playing all the cEDH staples but just non of the combo pieces. Makes the games go by much faster while not just being quick degenerate combos.

[@hiddenleaf414]

@@felipeguidolin1055 the cEDH community is proxy friendly so that would be much less strain on your budget. My whole playgroup and all the local bar leagues are proxy friendly and I spend way less money then building a deck with all real cards.

[@felipeguidolin1055]

@@hiddenleaf414 but I don't want to play cEDH. I like playing casual commander. When I want to play more seriously I break out my Modern and Legacy decks.

[@zackkelley2940]

@@felipeguidolin1055 Tis oft I have heard they who would beseech thee to play only the most efficiently costed cards in one breath and bemoan the homogeneity the game has become in the next. A multitude of options whittled down to but the insignificant few that meet that most stringent criterion. Is it then to any great surprise that such paucity of options so often breeds an almost discernible air of apathy and contempt for the state the game is in?

[@floridaman6982]

Lmao im usually done at 70 or 80… trying to add cards is the hard part!

[@Sp0rkXNinja]

I keep a log of deck changes like Dana and use tapped out. Sometimes I hate that I build myself into a corner or ask other people for advise and get bad advice.

[@yaniclaflamme6368]

a great way to make my deck building more easy is to not buy the any card then play test my deck whitout the ovious pick and often some card i would of not put in become the fundation of my deck

[@g.mendes0482]

Allow myself to introduce... myself...

[@NewOldEBM]

It's too bad because Matt's second harvest viewpoint is so biased by a go-wide token strat. As an avid Gyrus/Ghired player, 4 mana for a copy of a single token can be overwhelmingly worth it. Not all tokens are 2/2s.

[@baloo7869]

If you haven't been successful with triumph of the hordes, you're doing it wrong lol

[@snowdazeTV]

What helps me a lot is I actually cut some lands! I always start with 36 and always cut lands LAST to get down. Depending on the deck, I know I want 32-34 lands but I always start with 36 just because it helps mentally when slimming down to the 102-104 card point. I'll end up with maybe 12-3 instead of 10 ramp cards and cut out a couple colorless lands and then maybe 3-4 DFC lands for effects I want more of (e.g. cutting a land for bala ged for more witness). Of course this only works if DFCs aren't in your original deck though. Sometimes when I do end up at 100 with 36 lands and that's perfectly fine too! This method wouldn't work for everyone, but I hope it might help at least one other person! Definitely a good way to "get your reps in". As far as win more cards, I always have 1 or 2 just because of how fun and memorable it can be. For example, I have Harness Infinity with the new Wrenn and Seven. Granted, Harness is still a 7 card tutor with "discard" so it's not baaadddd, but it's definitely a cut in a more tuned deck.

[@skillganon606]

Not a bad idea but it's also not a build style I'd tell new players to follow.

[@justinhittle8138]

i just build 77 card decks and add 33 lands lol

[@jamesoakley9333]

Ha... $50 doubling season.... I wish. So dated. Keep up the good work guys.

[@newworldsound]

To be honest, most of my decks are brimming with pet cards. I get tired of seeing the same staples all the time

[@skillganon606]

I have so many unplayable rares that need homes before I can start caring about whatever the EDH meta is.

[@edgarventura7497]

Am I the only one that has this problem but the other way around, I always miss like 15 cards to put on the deck, and then I just punch in some random staples

[@simoncss1]

Inter-card or intra-deck dependence, maybe? Inter-deck is talkin about “between decks”

[@henryhall298]

....It's the only segment, Joey.

[@lewish1248]

Third!

[@bryankopkin6869]

Last

[@hiddenleaf414]

It’s weird that you guys discussed avoiding putting in a card because it only synergies with 1 other card in your deck and then you do exactly that later down the line. 31:09 besides copying that 1 lord in your deck making all your other merfolk into other merfolk doesn’t really help Kumena at all. So you’re just banking on Echoing Equation to resolve if your have Lord of Atlantis out from your 99.

[@EDHRECast]

Kumena decks contain more than just 1 Merfolk lord that pumps up other Merfolk. Lord of Atlantis was chosen as an example, but there's also Master of the Pearl Trident, Merrow Reejery, Merfolk Sovereign, Merfolk Mistbinder... In fact, Kumena also often plays Murkfiend Liege, which would be twice as effective.... Echoing Equation also could present fun other synergies with non-Lord creatures in general, especially since it can copy legendary creatures. But when it comes to the Lords specifically... it's a lot more than just 1.

[@brianwarden379]

Fyi, I love most of your content, but I hate that I have to fast forward to the 5 minute mark for every video before I get to your content. The first 5 minutes.... extremely cringey. I would consider reevaluating the dad joke intro. Content is superb though. Thanks for the hard work you put in.

[@jordonpohl7393]

😂… yes cut sol ring and cultivate lol … OPed and underpowered