Co2 Vs C25 mig gas: Lets test the differences

[@rakentrail]

Greg maybe some day you can try some 90-10 to 98-2 on some thin sheet metal. (18 ga and thinner) I think a lot of DIY guys might be amazed how much easier the thin stuff welds with only a minimal amount of CO2 in the shielding gas. You're probably helping way more people than you realize. A friend of mine went to welding school as part of a retraining as his and 100's of other's jobs were moving overseas! The instructor just said, "here's the machine, have at it"! He was close to flunking out so we talked nightly on the phone. (he was 800 miles away at the time) He actually graduated at the top of the class. All I did was tell him, "try this, try that"! You can't teach a class drinking coffee and playing games on your phone! Fast forward 5 years and he's a welding foreman at a fab shop with over 150 employees!

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Thanks for the kind words and the stories, I enjoy reading what people post 😀. I am glad to help people out, that’s why I make the videos 😀. I will have to try out c10 on some thin sheet. My welder is capable of mig welding really thin material with .023 wire and c25. However many people’s machines don’t have the low end performance to do that (or the ability to use .023 wire), and I could see a high argon gas mixture really helping keep the weld from blowing through the material. Thin material is probably the most frustrating welding to learn. I know stick welding sub 1/8th material is extremely difficult. Not a fun time lol.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

There will be a part two to this video where I do bend tests 😀

[@brnmcc01]

I love the bend tests

[@rick076]

i was about to comment on that... loved the video but missing bend test!! look forward to it... good thing I was planning to get a 100% CO2 anyways... now I am even more convinced 100% is best option for me but i will also watch your spray arc video now.

[@rick076]

btw... question about overhead... would it make a difference between 100% co2 vs a c-25 for welding overhead? for overhead I only use fluccore because Mig for me much harder as it drips a lot of lot.

[@rick076]

I am with you 100%... I always look for some number for comparison and Gregs channel is the only channel giving us comparative numbers​@@brnmcc01

[@agentcovert]

Just for clarification the I in MIG stands for inert gas such as Argon gas..but once you mix active gas such as C02 in a mix or straight tank the correct term for that welding process would be MAG welding as it uses active /oxidation gases which does allow hotter , deeper penetration at lower power settings..in other countries besides the USA they indeed use the terms MIG / MAG depending on the gas used..most people have never MIG welded ever in their 20+ yrs of welding as they have always used mixed gas vs straight Agron..

[@aaronburkhart9837]

Co2 works great for mill scale, plated steel, steel with light surface rust etc. 75/25 is for clean steel. .045 @ 20.5v 150 wire speed .045 @ 19.4v 125 wire speed Those are my preferred settings on aluminized sheet steel.

[@brnmcc01]

Ah, for things car like exhaust pipes then? All the cheaper stuff like Walker is all aluminum coated mild steel seam welded pipe.

[@aaronburkhart9837]

@@brnmcc01 I'd run .030 or .035 on exhaust pipe. Excellent on aluminized.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Thanks for the settings and your thoughts. I bet it would work better than c25 on poorer surfaces.

[@aaronburkhart9837]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg You're welcome. Thank you for the videos and reviews. You also opened my eyes to flux core and the possibilities. The Titanium 125 is a game changer at home.

[@deltab9768]

Wow you just about made a MIG cutter! I didn’t realize there could be such a deep and narrow band of penetration in the middle of a 75/25 short circuit MIG bead. As always thanks for an interesting and educational video 👍

[@grahamnielsen4797]

Been using Co2 for over 15ys after welding galvanized because of the better burn factor plus you also turn the gas down. Bonus x2 you save money in gas and better penetration win win

[@robert.santore]

Very interesting results. I use C100 just because I always have CO2 ( homebrewer). I've had great results with it, so I've never had a reason to try C25. Now I appreciate it even more

[@Gyppor]

Thanks for the video Greg. I bought a bottle of CO2 a while back; I was a bit worried that I wouldn't like it and I'd be stuck with a 20 pounder. Since then I've decided to stick with CO2. I don't notice any more spatter (although I do see more on the nozzle), penetration is WAY better, I have a 250A machine and I get the most penetration out of CO2 mig, better than 7018. I'll keep my C25 bottle for sheet metal, or for projects where bead appearance is important. I do notice the C25 bead is smoother than the CO2 bead with fewer silicon deposits.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

No doubt 100% co2 mig will far outperform the penetration depth of 7018. What I am curious about is if it will handle a bend test in my shop press as good as c25. There is a slight reduction in tensile strength with 100% co2, but I don’t believe it’s enough to make much of a difference. I am doing some bend testing tomorrow, I guess I will find out lol.

[@Gyppor]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg I look forward to your results. I've tested some 1/8" wall tubing and the tube will break before the weld does. It'll be interesting to see your bend tests on thicker material, as I'm not set up to bend much more than 3/16".

[@mkearn724]

Quality information yet again Greg! I knew that 100% co2 burns alittle hotter, but for some reason I don’t use my bottle too much. About 15 years ago I bought a used millermatic 130 with a 200 cf bottle of 100%co2. I tend to use 75/25 just bc I’m more familiar setting. I’m not even sure what to expect whenever I try to get that co2 refilled. I often contemplate getting a bigger wire welder, but I always end up talking myself out of it. Realistically at the moment the firepower seems to be sufficient for my needs, but I’d like to have the ability to go higher. I’ve entertained the htp pro pulse 220 or the revolution 2500, but they both have a 220 amp max with mig. It kinda seems like more bells and whistles but only a touch more punch.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

With all the mig testing I have done it honestly seems like the biggest hold back is that 200 amp ceiling and sub 23volt cap on many machines. When you cross over 200 amps and 26v capability all of a sudden mig becomes extremely capable. Thats why I went with the rebel 235 which can hit 250a intermittent. It’s setup more for what a person would want for handling anything in the home shop. The pro pulse machines are nice, but honestly for what they cost the actual capability is somewhat limited. Tons of settings and modes, but still limited by output. It’s hard to spend that much money when a few 7018s can get the job done in any position, fairly easy.

[@garthland]

those Knipex pliers are the best, I have the older style off the MAC truck-nice and thin and they bite! I would spray but I just dualshield or lo-hi stick on thicker steel. I also learned something! thanks man,keep 'em coming!

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

The pliers are definitely nice. I like how thin they are, I find them super useful for a ton of random jobs. Dual shield, lowhi, or spray are really the best solutions for thick plate. I will say the 100% co2 is far better on 3/8th plate than I would have expected. I am going to do some bend testing and if it survives that it’s worth it.

[@andyb4071]

Another banger. Thanks

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

No problem. Unexpected results are always good 😀

[@johnmacmillan627]

Another beauty. Thx Greg!

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

No problem 😀👍. I was surprised at the difference, far more than I would have ever expected.

[@richarcruz7843]

Incredible lesson Greg we appreciate u God Bless always….it’ll be interesting to compare it against Spray An dual shield flux core process thanks🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽

[@melgross]

So, as we spoke before, it’s interesting. Honestly, your C100 beads are exceptional. I haven’t seen that much penetration. Ok, so talking about strength. According to the ESAB wire charts, for wire recommended for C25 and C100, the C100 welds are: Lower tensile strength. Less elongation and elasticity. More brittle. Possibly less resistance to rust. Recommendations are IF the weld specs allow for it, C100 is ok, but check as they may not allow. If they do, then compensation for lowered specs may be required.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

100% co2 definitely does lower tensile strength. I did some investigation on Lincoln’s site and they claim 100% Co2 will perform above minimum aws spec for er70s6. However it will test lower than c25, so it is technically weaker. Other destructive tests (charpy v notch) also have reductions. What I am curious about is if I shop press a 3/8th fillet weld plate if it will fail or not. I know 7018, 7016, er70 have no issue handling it. But 7014, 60xx, and normal t-11 Gasless flux core fail.

[@deltab9768]

That makes sense from a chemistry perspective. Argon is almost a perfectly inert gas, CO2 is able to react with other substances to some extent. Not surprised if it brings some mild contamination into the weld’s metal.

[@melgross]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg well, Co2 is a reactive gas. What do we try to keep out of our welds? Oxygen. The plasma breaks the co2 down to carbon and oxygen. The carbon adds to brittleness and lack of elongation and elasticity. We all know what oxygen does to a weld. The tiny amount of oxygen (for those who will complain) in a 98/2 mixture of argon oxygen is small enough that the detriment is less than the advantages. 75/25 is a compromise. There’s a balance where the co2 is needed, even though it’s not great for the weld itself.

[@brnmcc01]

@@melgross So like 98/2 would be considered MAG metal active gas, rather than Metal Inert Gas then? Or is MAG only ran in spray transfer mode

[@melgross]

@@brnmcc01 you now, these definitions are general. There are special cases for everything. After all co2 is a reactive gas as well. But the general effect is that overall, it’s inert. It’s hard to explain in a post. But it works, and that’s what matters for general welding. If we want to talk about aerospace work, then everything is different.

[@Stan_in_Shelton_WA]

Good topic, good coverage, first time to your channel, subscribed. My little welding projects (small trailers etc) I'd preheat and then weld, it helped my little hobby 240V wire feed get acceptable penetration. Lots of hassle though.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Welcome 😀. Preheat heat is definitely a hassle. In general short circuit mig really struggles above 1/4inch unless you have a 230+ amp machine. At the 200a level with 100% co2 gas it seems to have really solid performance. The biggest limiting factor between stick and mig is thick plate, most home mig machines simply perform poor above about 5/16th steel. Once you get into bigger wire machines (250a or higher) stick is honestly overshadowed by far on clean steel. It’s just that those machines are costly, physically big, require a lot of power, and are very uncommon to own at home.

[@PaulSteMarie]

That strip of test welds reminds me-i would love to see a video on minimizing or correcting warping. Stuff like clamping until cool, applying post-heat with a torch, peening the welds with a hammer, etc. Do any of those actually work? I periodically make additions to my toolholder rack for my lathe, and they just love to banana up. I'm sure that applying two fat fillet welds to either side of the tabs doesn't help matters, but i have a hard time just applying a couple of half inch tacks on both sides 😑.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

There are a ton of ways to minimize warping, some work, most don’t lol. The number one thing is to have a really good fit with minimal gaps. If the fit is good having the ability to clamp things together will make a world of difference. I tend to just “dope” things more than clamp, aka tack it with a lean the opposite way it will pull then weld it. This works well but can go south in a hurry. I will definitely have to do some actual testing on how well different methods work.

[@signalmaintainer]

Interesting once again. One idea I had for some content was using C25 gas with flux core wire, such as ER70S-6 to get the effect of dual-shield wire. It would help with the porosity problem you get with flux core, but not sure what other effects it might have. Experimenting is the way to know for sure...

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

So I did just that, in this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/fXWpeZdvfruAfrcsi=ONZ8NFcuLE7xt3W- . The porosity is primarily caused from solidification of the weld without the gas escaping. This is due to thick weld throat depth (trying to weld bigger welds on thick material) combined with the heat sink of the material causing the weld to solidify too fast. The only real solution to this issue seems to be to go to bigger wire like .045. It can handle thicker material with hotter weld pools so the porosity isn’t as much of an issue. The other rather interesting aspect of using shielding gas with the wire is that the shielding gas will affect the properties of the weld. Gasless flux core is rather brittle in comparison to gas shielded mig, and even absent of porosity I would worry about the finished weld being overly brittle and weak.

[@Hitman-ds1ei]

I use 100% CO2 with dual shield inner shield wire and penetration and rusty etc is not an issue, where a lot of guys will pick up a stick where its hard to clean up weld area for solid wire mig i use dual shield with co2 mostly in spray arc applications

[@BobWolford-q2b]

Great, informative video, as usual. I happen to be a chemistry major, so I'm really interested in what is happening with both gases "chemically" in this process- I calculated the atomic weights of each, and as it turns out the straight CO2 is slightly heavier than C25, but not by much. Probably has something to do with the fact that with the straight CO2, there's more free electrons flying around in the gas, whereas with the C25 mix, but definition there are much less free electrons flying around because the Argon is inert. But that's just my guess.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Cool to hear you’re a chemistry major👍. I never took a chemistry class so I am pretty rusty in that field. However with that said I know that running straight co2 requires more voltage to run properly. I would imagine 100% co2 is probably a poorer conductor of electricity than c25. People say it runs “hotter” when my guess is it needs more voltage to simply stabilize the arc that exists during short circuit. With tig a similar thing happens with argon vs helium. Helium requires more voltage to establish and maintain an arc in the arc gap. This allows you to have much higher heat input with a tight arc than would normally be possible with tig. Thus deeper penetration because the heat is driven into the material.

[@derekbryant6137]

And this is my last input I don't see too many silicone Islands when I'm using c25 and you are absolutely right you get a rougher almost like 6010 like appearance when you run 100% CO2 but to be honest I haven't ran CO2 in the last 10 years I've been spoiled every contractor I've done day labor for or permanent payroll kind of things they all use some type of mixed gas

[@mixpick138]

Wow! I didn't expect THAT much of a difference. Very cool --thanks! If I can find tanks (at a non-insane price) AND a place to fill them, I hope to try MIG instead of flux core and stick that I use now. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy both flux core and stick when I'm welding outside but I wouldn't mind cutting down on the smoke when I'm welding inside. Lol

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Cost wise co2 here is definitely cheaper. That 20lb tank is something like 14$ to fill, and I guess it equals a 150cuft cylinder. That’s 7-8 hours of mig welding for 14$ of shielding gas. The bottles are something like 100$. If you factor in the far cheaper bare wire and the cheap gas fill ups, it’s actually probably cheaper per 10lb spool with co2 mig over flux core. Obviously where you live is probably harder. If you can find a way it would be worth it to do it.

[@googlegok9637]

We have plenty of CO2 in our firehouse and it also works for beer .I weld Sheet 0.8 - 1mm on CO2 with no problems , specially with inverter with 0.1volt increments.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

The modern welders make a huge difference in control. On super thin material being able to dial in things precisely (and change inductance) makes is much easier to tackle tough jobs like thin material. Glad to hear you welded thin material with no issues with the co2 👍

[@philipreich7035]

Hi Greg, Thanks for the test. What do you think about 1/8 or 3/16 steel with a lincoln SP-35T, and 100% CO2? The manual says the "letter" dial controls the voltage, but it doesn't say what voltage is supplied for each letter position (A-D). The only thing I have found in the literature is that it's duty cycle is 20% at 90A/19v for 10 minutes, which doesn't say which setting the selector switch was on. The maximum open circuit voltage says "Max. OCV: 29V", but I don't know what the voltage would drop to when welding. So I assume the max OCV was on the "D" setting. Thanks for all you share on your channel! Cheers from Portland, OR, Philip

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

So I looked up the manual for that welder and as you found, it’s difficult to determine voltage. If I had to take a guess it probably only outputs around 20volts under load. I have part two with c02 coming out tomorrow. I will do a part 3 and that will be out by this weekend. In part 3 I am going to test reduced voltage and amperage. I know that welder you have could weld 1/8th no problem. 3/16th would probably be best done with flux core but I bet that machine could do it with gas shielded mig. I have a feeling 100% co2 would have a bit of spatter with the reduced voltage over what I was running but until I test it I won’t know for sure 😀

[@michaelwhiting878]

Great information Greg! I noticed the C25 has a lot more Tan Soot, that seems to be more wide spread than the C100. Easily removed and not a concern, but curious why C25 even has that soot, and why the Co2 has less. There is very little info out there about MIG’s Tan Soot and the inner black soot ring/edge to MIG welds. I keep thinking I’m not getting good gas coverage or a bad bottle and the tan/black soot is not consistent between various welds with approximately the same settings. I’ve tried rolling the c25 bottle around just incase the argon and Co2 have separated/settled to no avail. It’s nice the spatter is roughly the same, but honestly I’m not all that worried about spatter as much as strength, and so I’m really looking forward to Part 2’s bend testing. I know you are planning a separate revisit to the Dual Shield, and said you were going to try it with the Co2 as many viewer suggested. I don’t want to spoil any surprises, but could you please mention if getting a Co2 bottle would be advantageous for Dual Shield. You now have access to a Miller Multimatic 215 at work. My 215 has a MIG with C100 setting, so I’m guessing it has the voltage and power required for using Co2 as a cover gas. Since Dual Shield aka E71T-1 is run DCEP, I’m really hoping my Miller 215 can run Dual Shield. I would love to see something along those lines in comparison to the standard MIG testing you are planning for part 2 and your Dual Shield videos. Please email Miller 215 info if you don’t want to put any spoilers out yet. LoL

[@brnmcc01]

I have a 215 as well, it runs 6011 and 7018 stick really nice too, so far I'm happy with it. I haven't tried 6013.

[@michaelwhiting878]

@@brnmcc01 On my 215 I have tried 6011, 6013, 7014, 7018 and 7024 with mine, and they all run very well with 7014 and 7024 (flat position only with 7024, Greg has some really good videos on 7024) being my favorites. I have had some success with 6010 as long as it’s not Red Rod. Matheson Gas welding supply chain has a Matheson brand 6010 that runs well with a proper arc gap. You will find the 215 does in fact have a Hot Start feature of about 40%-50% additional amps for 1/2 second, and an undocumented but nice Dig function i.e. I have stopped all motion and literally drove the rod straight in with some force, and it won’t extinguish the arc. These features were confirmed by Miller Tech Support. I also understand the newest version is designed to intentionally run 6010, but I get by nicely on the version I have. I also bought the TIG kit for that, and I can answer any basic questions on that, or tell you about issues I have had with it - I’m on my 3rd foot control pedal replaced under warranty for failing.

[@derekbryant6137]

I prefer CO2 Argonne c25 mix the late nineties is when I started learning to weld I was about 15 or 16 years old and my stepdad was a trucker he had all of that equipment in the garage to work on his semi all he would buy for the MIG welder was CO2 because it was cheaper even way back there and if it was thicker than what the Mig could handle we would either stick weld it or we would gas Fusion weld it the mig welder I leaned to weld on was a was a 1975 millermatic 250 and it was a transformer power source and since then I have used inverters xmt units and I have seen a difference in arc performance between transformer vs inverter type units and now with the introduction of synergic systems that control all those variables in my opinion I don't think it really does matter very much at all but some it does which shielding gas you use the machine pretty much optimizes your bead shape for you

[@jab2359]

Greg, if that gas is from where I think it is, they are the best welding and gas supplier I have done business with. I drive out of my way to buy from them!

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

If it’s advanced welding out of Milwaukee area Wisconsin they are indeed an excellent store. I deal with them and matheson gas out of oak creek for everything.

[@jab2359]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg I recognized their markings on the bottle. I’m just south of the border in taxinois, but advanced is great. Great guys to do business with!

[@jake-mv5oi]

That's awesome. Might have to get one of those adapters. Will the stock C25 regulator work ok?

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

I used a standard regulator for c25. The regulator may not be super accurate because the density of the gas is different. It works no problem.

[@Bluecollar_armorer]

With C25 and my Miller 211 for example, what’s the max thickness you recommend? Machine says 3/8” single pass with 240, but from your videos I say BS. Max thickness using MM211 with 120? I feel like mm211 shines more with with 120v and thinner metal than pushing it hard with 220

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Great question. So that welder has some balls because it actually will output 230amps. The main downside is the duty cycle becomes very low above 200a so you won’t be able to weld much. Will it weld 3/8th steel? Maxed completely out with c25 it would be right at the limit. I wouldn’t use it for that unless both sides of what you’re welding (such as a fillet weld) are welded or what you’re welding is a beveled open root. With c100 you will lose some strength over c25 however on a single sided weld the penetration difference would be significant. If that was my option I would run 100% co2 and weld 3/8th. Keep in mind you won’t be doing much of it before it thermally trips. Another way to look at it is 100% co2 will give you far more root fusion and more consistent fusion.

[@Bluecollar_armorer]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg10-4, that’s what I figured. One thing I can’t stand is not having digital read outs for volts and amps/wfs - I know you just adjust the knobs if the weld looks like ass, but based on the rated output, I’d like to know numbers - especially running 110 on say a 15am circuit - those numbers drop a bit. Just makes it more annoying to tune IMO.

[@davidmcduffie1398]

Greg, How would ( penetration ) CO2 100 compare to Flux Core or Dual Shield or both ?

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

So flux core self shielded wire will have more penetration than short circuit with c25 but less I would say than 100% co2 mig. The limitation with self shielded flux core is when welding thick steel with .035 wire. The weld will have internal porosity due to how fast the weld solidifies. Going up in size of flux core wire to .045+ will likely fix this, but many people’s welders won’t run .045 wire. For the average person short circuit mig will outperform flux core for actual strength on 1/4 and thicker material assuming .035 wire and a 200amp machine. Even with more penetration the flux core weld is weaker in a bend test due to porosity. Dual shield in .035 performs poorly on thicker plate (literally zero penetration), I have tested that previously. However I didn’t test it with 100% co2. I have a hard time believing it will perform good enough with it to make a difference. .045 and bigger dual shield tend to work fine on 1/4in and thicker steel.

[@elkvis]

"It's more or less like a 7018 stick weld, where you have a wider penetration." The flux on a 7018 rod creates CO2 as it burns, if I'm not mistaken, to act as a shielding gas, so this makes a lot of sense.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

The way the weld penetration looks is definitely way different than I expected. Wire processes tend to be very narrow and pointed for penetration, especially spray. The c02 weld looks nothing like the 50+ cut and etches I have done on wire so far. Depending on how the bend testing goes I might switch to it and turn my cylinder in for a different gas.

[@dealinwithit1]

I learned on co2 and still use only c02 and I weld in my home garage with a 180 machine on mostly 3/16

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

On that thickness with 180a I don’t think your welds could get stressed enough to see any benefit to c25, so definitely no reason to switch. Have you ever noticed a bunch of spatter? I expected far worse spatter and simply saw no evidence of it which is contrary to the “common opinion” lol.

[@dealinwithit1]

No splatter at all I pull with cursive e ​@@makingmistakeswithgreg

[@GustavoCastillaEtherDreams]

Learned something new today 😅

[@jnieveslocobanana]

This is interesting , thanks

[@kevin-pk6hd]

Yesssss! Been waiting for this one

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Me too lol. Only took me 6+ months to try it out lol.

[@kevin-pk6hd]

Much appreciated, my experience echoes your results. I found on my 100a mig welder it wasn't really worth it unless I was out of c25 on the weekend. CO2 on the kegerator is a much better usage 😂

[@Mosa-166]

Thank you for your effort! Can't wait to see part 2. By looking at your equipment, it doesn't have a heater attached to the regulator! Is that not necessary?

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

For filling one tire off the co2 it’s not much of an issue. If you fill 4 the regulator will get frosty. The regulator is designed to handle pretty high flow without freezing up. It works pretty good on off road tires.

[@Mosa-166]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg Thank you for your response. I have learned alot from you. Yes it makes sense, maximum flow I use is 35 cfh for my work, so I unplugged the heater.🙏

[@FPSRepair]

Here in Japan, everyone uses C100 on steel unless you need to spray. Even the body shops. The cost is one tenth that of Argon. Just need a regulator with a heater for high duty cycle. It's always seemed really weird to me seeing hobbyists/DIYers in the US running Argon mixes.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

At 1/10th the price I wouldn’t even think of adding argon. Honestly I am not sure why so much bad information is out there on c100. Everything I had heard about c100 (like it has more spatter and it can’t weld thin material) seems to be false. Sure it does have a reduction in strength over c25, but on anything under 3/8th thick material I don’t think it would matter.

[@dahut3614]

If you only have a small bottle for a portable welder, more CO2 will fit in that bottle because it liquifies. I don't know if you said that because I fell asleep...

[@derekbryant6137]

I should add I forgot about globular transfer because no one really uses it that little fine line between short circuit and spray arc I absolutely did forget that it existed that's because most of us that work in Industry are spoiled most manufacturers are running mixed gases at the very least c25 9010 gas or something else there really isn't nothing else like it in the world running that classic L-56-6 Lincoln hardwire and 100%c02 the smell that produces if you ever get to just do it once you never forget the smell especially if you're burning through Mill scale

[@The_Seal77]

Good video again, lol, this time I waited for the video to finish before asking a question. Would this work the same way in TIG, going from 100% Argon to 100% CO2. Would there be a difference of penetration depending on what gas you are using.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

So the interesting thing with tig is the tungsten gets white hot and doesn’t melt. It can do so because of the absurdly high melting point of tungsten. The problem is, it can only hit that high temp when oxygen or other reactive gasses are not present. If you were to try to use c02 to shield a tungsten the co2 gas would react with the tungsten and it would be consumed. The reason you can use c02 with mig is because the wire is consumed anyway and it’s both the electrode and filler material. If we could synthesize an element that had the same melting point as tungsten but had no reaction to co2, I would imagine the heat input would increase and the weld penetration would increase. Interestingly enough, there is a gas that works like that which is tig compatible, its helium. Helium increases the voltage required to maintain an arc, thus increasing heat input. The helium doesn’t react with the hot tungsten. The main downside to helium is since the shortage started a few years ago the price has skyrocketed to the point it’s pretty much unaffordable.

[@shortbuslife3440]

So 20% co2 80% argon mix I just bought should be ideal for sheet metal car body panels etc, burn through is the biggest issue with sheet metal so the argon running a little cooler seems ideal.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

There are a ton of co2-argon blends, the more argon generally the cooler it will weld. I have never used 80-20 but it will likely weld close to c25. Definitely should run good for sheet metal and thin material. If you have the ability to run .023-.024 mig wire (aka your machine has drive rollers for it) I would highly suggest you use that for auto body and thin material. Keep in mind many machines also commonly use a different liner for that thin of wire, but the one in your machine may work just fine too. .023 makes auto body very easy and far more forgiving. With practice you can put down small tig like welds with it 😀👍.

[@HVACtuner]

Wow! It is amazing that you dont have so much spatter with co2. Are you using high inductance?

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

The inductance was set at 60 or 70%, I didn’t change it for either. That’s generally what I use for thicker plates. It definitely made a clean weld. The voltage is the big reason, if you run too low it will have way more spatter.

[@Nakadori.qcow2]

so does CO2 just effectively make the mig welder function as a MAG welder? Im not very familiar with both but i know CO2 is an active gas so without argon wouldnt it technically be metal active gas? (MAG)

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

So here in the states (not sure where you are) it’s very common to call short circuit process “mig welding”, regardless of gas. This is technically incorrect, which is why welding schools call it GMAW (gas metal arc welding). Mag welding is a better term to use to describe Mig, the problem is the average person gets confused by that term and doesn’t know what I am talking about. You are 100% correct, c02 is classified as an active gas since it is not inert. So are many other gas blends like 98/2 argon/oxygen, trimix, etc. The same issue exists with MMA vs stick welding here. Everyone here knows what stick welding is, but say MMA welding and you get deer in the headlights look lol.

[@Nakadori.qcow2]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg Yeah im also in the states i was just curious, appreciate the explanation greg 👌👍

[@brnmcc01]

I played around with the settings on my machine, it can go up to 27.0 volts and up to 600 inches per minute wire feed speed. Is this enough to spray .030 standard ER70S-6 wire? I think the volts might be enough, but I don't want to melt down my gun either lol.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

So spray on .035 starts around 200amps output and 23-24 volts (with c10 gas, 98/2oxygen and others will vary). If your machine is atleast 200 amps you should have no issue hitting spray with .035. .030 would require a lot of wire feed but would also work. The other issue that you mentioned is the mig gun (and duty cycle). There is a ton of wattage being putout when you’re at 200a 24volts. Keep an eye on melting things other than metal lol.

[@brnmcc01]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg How much is a lot of wire feed? The max speed setting is 600, but stuff on the chart only goes up to like in the 500's range. Max output is 215 amps, but at that high of a voltage I think the duty cycle is going to be like in the 15% range. lol.

[@Fogyt121]

In my area of the world, all of the short circuit mig is done with pure co2. Rarely will you see 75/25, 80/20. 92/8 is the most common for spray on thick steel, along with dualshield flux core.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Interesting. The welds do look slightly better with c25, but considering the cost increase and lack of performance, I could easily see why people would stick with 100% co2.

[@Fogyt121]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg Also, the machine I use is 26,5V/250A mig welder and it seems to run just fine with low settings on sheet metal and pure co2 and 0,8mm wire. In those circumstances it sounds like a little hornet and there's very little spatter, arc is almost undetectable by an autodarkening hood. I've also had success in welding 4mm thick square tubing to 8mm base plate with pretty high settings. I pulled the torch and after that I did a root bend. Full fusion with a very respectable flat bead. I did weave it slightly, though.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Nice. If the bend tests I am doing today (video out shortly) come out good, I definitely will recommend c02 for people who have welders that can hit decent voltage.

[@john-venters-outdoor-services]

What would happen if you repeated this exact test but with flux core wire and c100?

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Self shielded flux core would have little difference and wouldn’t be a great idea (I did test that with c25 before lol). Dual shield would probably see some increase in penetration. I doubt it would be as much as in this video. Dual shield already runs at pretty high voltage, 100% co2 would require 27+ volts on co2.

[@john-venters-outdoor-services]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg thank you for the reply. I've spent all day repairing a rusty chassis that really should be scrapped. But the manny is adamant and apparently I'm the only person that is even remotely capable of welding in the town or within an hours drive. Clouds of rust and I remembered your respirator video. So before I started I went and bought a mask. Thanks from the Scottish Highlands

[@ericarachel55]

my mig machine is suppose to be 175 amp, how would I dertrmine the volts when the display is in amps

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

If you can’t adjust voltage independently it won’t likely run properly with 100% co2. The machine was setup to weld with the assumption of c25 more than likely. You would probably get a ton of spatter running it.

[@ericarachel55]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg thanks

[@notanymore9471]

CO2 actually does globular transfer not short circuit transfer technically.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Globular transfer can be achieved with 100% co2 but generally at settings above what I ran. The lack of spatter, welding sound, and the visual appearance (lack of molten balls on the wire) all would suggest short circuit and not globular. I guess it really depends on what definition of globular you look at, because the conventional one states the two general defining characteristics of globular is balls of molten metal on the wire and an increase in spatter. At reduced settings 100% co2 would be more or less MAG welding.

[@TheMaddogronh]

Thanks for the video,, now go the other way and mig with 100% Argon

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

I probably will. I can tell you the bead will be tall, narrow, and have a weird appearance lol.

[@tallyman15]

What do you use for etching?

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

It’s called naval jelly, which is a pretty funny name lol. Harbor freight, Menards, and most hardware stores sell it. It’s a pink colored acid. You cut your plates, polish the surface a bit with a 80 grit (or higher) flap disc, rub the acid on, and give it a minute or two. The hotter the plate is the faster it etches. It takes me more work to get pics that turn out with the camera, you could do a down/dirty etch on a unpolished plate fast and be able to see enough to know what’s going on.

[@maxscott3349]

I always thought the point of straight CO2 was that it's cheaper. I think I ran it on flux cored once and couldn't tell much difference

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

It definitely is cheaper. I have never ran it with dual shield wire but I would imagine it would have more penetration like mig, probably a bit less of a difference though.

[@hydewhyte4364]

I like that I can get CO2 on weekends.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Great point, it’s available far more places and times than c25.

[@janisvaskevics93]

Isn't it the situation that C25 or CO2 is not MIG but rather MAG process? Both are active gases, no inert.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Technically both c25 and c100 are “active gasses”, the argument could easily be made that 100% co2 is only “active gas”. The only wire process that uses 100% inert gas is aluminum, which uses 100% argon. That doesn’t operate in the short circuit process though, it’s spray. In America short circuit process is universally called mig regardless of gas used. In many other countries that isn’t the case. Much like many countries call stick welding (or SMAW) “MMA” welding.

[@sebastianleicht]

"Manual Metal Arc welding" or "E-Hand-Schweißen"... 🤣

[@janisvaskevics93]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg not only aluminium, but stainless steel is MIG (or TIG for fine looking welds). Carbon steel is mostly MAG. I have welded carbon steel with argon, but only because too lazy to go after different bottle.

[@dealinwithit1]

My 180 amp welder goes up to 561 ipm and 26 arc volts I should have the power

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

180a and 26v is enough to run c25 gas. You will still be limited to lower thickness of material than say a 200amp machine, but you should see a decent bump in penetration going to c100. On 1/4 inch steel the difference in penetration should be pretty decent for your setup.

[@Boodieman72]

Greg, can you use 100% argon for non aluminium MIG welding?

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

It will produce very weird beads, much like running DCEN polarity with normal c25. The penetration from what I heard will be decent, but the bead will stack up like a very tall rope lol. To get out of a dark alley in the middle of Detroit it’s doable, but other than that I would avoid it lol.

[@Lou-eye]

I'm thinking of trying a 50/50 mix of co2 and argon🤔

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

I am not sure if that is readily available, you could “make it yourself” with two bottles and a blend valve. My guess is it would be pretty similar to c25, the voltage required would definitely be lower than 100% co2.

[@sebastianleicht]

Here 100% CO2 is barely available for homehobbyists (unless you are lucky and get hands on some fireextinguishers . You have to buy "foodgrade" bottles and man that's expensive. I'm using 82%Argon 18% CO2 for taht reason. The benefit is that it is more likely to spray.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Yep, there is no spray with 100% co2, and if the cost is higher were your at that’s a big limitation. I like the performance of 100% co2 overall. I am starting bend testing for part 2 right now, it will be interesting if it will pass bend testing the same as c25.

[@sebastianleicht]

I ment that the higher percentage of Argon is more likely to spray than c25. I doubt that 100% CO2 is able to spray. The bend test on welds with 100%CO2 will be very interresting, too! The manufacturers for wire give slightly reduced values. I don't want to bet on, but I guess the welds will break in the press but surpass c25 if bend towards the weld. As always very nice Video!

[@ytmachx]

test FAIL. You should have run the same voltage on both c25 and c100 instead you screwed the test results by giving the advantage to the c100

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

I said atleast twice in the video that I have ran the same voltage with c25 with minimal increase in penetration. Voltage is not a driver of penetration, gas mixture and wire feed speed are. Spray arc done at similar wire feed and similar voltage has a completely different penetration profile. I even put a picture comparing spray (430in/min c10 gas) to c25 (420+ and 21v) and the penetration of both of those A) looks nothing like the 100% co2 weld, and B) has by far less sidewall fusion. You are looking at the effects created by differences in gas mixtures, not the effects of voltage. For more information look at this, Per Lincoln electric: “”One main welding variable that has virtually no effect on weld penetration is arc voltage. While changes in arc voltage can result in minimal changes in weld penetration, the effect is very minor compared to welding current and the other variables just listed in this article”. Article found here: www.lincolnelectric.com/en/welding-and-cutting-resource-center/process-and-theory/variables-that-affect-weld-penetration#:~:text=One%20main%20welding%20variable%20that,just%20listed%20in%20this%20article. Let me ask you this: If spray welding at 26volts with c10 gas (similar wire feed speed as 100% co2) doesn’t have as much sidewall fusion as 100% co2, how would c25 with short circuit achieve anywhere near the same as 100% co2? It’s not possible. Just based on what is in the video it’s pretty clear that c25 will not achieve what 100% co2 can. The reason 100% co2 has increased penetration is because of the gas mixture, the voltage required is merely a requirement to reduce spatter, it is not a driver of penetration.