Mig welding with .023 wire and limited voltage control troubleshooting

[@rmckayne]

Hello; am 64, the first time I take a Short training on A Mig , was in 1980 , from a Salesman of HTP, outside of a small auto paint store in Puerto Rico. He demontrate , how to weld very thin sheet metal 24 ga. He set the machine at the lower setting and place de gun touching the metal at 45 angle with the right hand a dialing with the left hand the wire speed at the same time he pull the trigger, concentrating in the sound , the .023 melt like glue and do not make holes. Since that I always use a scrap metal , the same gauge of the material for the work , and adjust it by sound and not by numbers. On cars I always use ESAB easy grind, I think that wire is very unique, for cars sheet metal . A little expensive, but the results are fantastic. Good video, Thanks.

[@mike-yp1uk]

I love talking about volts and wire speed because the more I hear these along with visual aids I begin to understand the start settings and fine tuning for spray and short arch welds along with proper gas.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

If you haven’t seen it, I did this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mIfCqX57ecioh80si=ba8EuCCvmj2ihMum Basically I covered the display and tuned the mig welder just by the look of the welds. Doing that will help you dial in any mig welder on thin material to 1/4in or so.

[@massa-blasta]

Thanks for the video, your efforts pretty much look like mine. 😉 The recommended lowest setting on the 210 for 0.024 with C25 is 4/20 or 19v 120ipm. Jody Collier has several videos of this welder, but always using Lincoln .030 wire, I believe. With flux-core I believe he uses 0.035. On 115v, you have to boost the ipm a little, which I have no idea why on the lowest setting with 0.024. If you push your puddle it does not put as much heat into the material. I feel like they optimize these transformer welders for a certain wire size, but they don't tell you which one. Thank you for your effort. I actually prefer stick welding, but can't position my body properly, especially for going around a pipe. I know there are tricks to it.

[@mkearn724]

I rarely ever weld with .023 but I will be doin some shortly on a little project. A quick tip Greg is to push your puddle with mig. It’ll wet in better.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Great tip. I have a tendency to pull with all wire, and it surely would have likely changed the weld a bit.

[@petar443]

Here's a possible ideas how to weld with 19 volts minimum settings machine. - 1. Change the polarity to DCEN(that way the heat input is toward the 22 gauge sheet steel(0.76mm), which is thicker than the .023 wire(0.6mm) 2. Use many tack welds and stagger the tacks away from one other to control heat input to the metal 3. Use very low wire feed speed(use a test panel,same thickness) 4. Use very long stickout(manual increasing the "inductance") 5. Try to butt the two pieces tightly, without any gap. 6. Weld in vertical if possible, so the molten spot doesnt suckback like it will do in flat position, while is cooling. If it's a patch on a removable panel you can rotate it.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Excellent tips and they will surely help someone trying to get by without upgrading equipment.

[@greglangley4518]

Thank you for sharing the informative video. I intend to conduct further testing, but my old Millermatic 35 transformer machine has a lowest tap of 19.2V OCV, while the loaded voltage averages 16V when loaded with .030 and .035 wires. If I set my Everlast MTS 251SI to 19.2V OCV with .030 wire, it runs from 17.8 to 19V on average, depending on the stickout and possibly the inductance setting (it seemed to be influenced by it, but I am not certain). I will conduct more tests when I have the time and adjust the inductance to find out. It is possible that changes in the resistance of the ground cable and whip due to size, length, and age may somewhat affect this.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

No problem 😀👍. Having inductance control can make a solid difference on welding thin stuff, playing with it will likely make a subtle difference. No doubt .023 wire and a welder with really low voltage capability can make easy work of thin material, but it’s still very doable with less than the idea setup. The worst case is you run short welds to prevent making holes.

[@5150Magic]

With .023 to .025 on 18 gauge is awesome. But you can't get away with running beads on auto body panels anyway. The warping would be horrendous even if it could be done.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Yep, auto body becomes a real battle with what it takes to produce the least amount of “extra” work needed to get to the desired repair. If a person likes making long, nice beads, auto body becomes a test of patience and ability to handle frustration.

[@mixpick138]

I've been trying out some .023,.024,.025 whatever wire and it's a strange beast. I've gotten down to 20 gauge with good beads but like a lot have said, the warpage on even this metal is freaking pretzel like! 🙂 I think it'll be handy fixing some really small stuff that breaks but my dreams of being able to fix body panels on one of our old cars has been dashed for now. I can get way down on voltage and wire speed on my machine but the burn back is a real problem (I know this sounds weird but it's actually kinda' cool to see it --it's like a big blue cone where the wire should be) and I haven't fiddled with the run in speed to see if I can fix it. I'll keep working with it but I started with .030 wire and that stuff is great with a wide range to it --for me anyways. I'd love to see more vid's on how you would tackle repairs on thin stuff if you only had GMAW to use (no TIG! :). Thanks for the vid!

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

I definitely need to do a video on that. I am not very experienced with auto body but I can weld thin material, so I not completely in the dark lol. I know that auto body is incredibly tough to get joints perfect. Small Spot welds, hammer/dolly work, using compressed air to cool what you just welded, and tons of other tricks is how it’s done. The goal is to weld it with the least amount of warpage and thus least amount of time wasted trying to fix it. That is an art in itself that’s probably far harder than welding it lol. I need to experiment on that for sure.

[@mixpick138]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg Totally agree that the guys/gals that do this kinda' work are artists --whether they like it or not. Lol I watched one interesting video that was contrary to many others. What he recommended was high heat and a quick trigger finger. He was basically doing spot welds but his argument was even though it was high heat it was localized and kept the bead basically flat so blending the weld would be much easier on body fixes (also the heat didn't permeate to whole piece so warpage was low). I look to you on the veracity of this kind of stuff 🙂 but the results he showed was very nice. Looking forward to whatever topic you choose to tackle! Edit: Except TIG 'cause I haven't gotten there yet! Lololol

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Couple things: 1: feel free to skip the ads if there are any. 2: it’s possible that the viewers machine is not constant voltage like mine. Having transformer taps may actually give a volt/amp curve and 19 volts may actually be a maximum on that particular setting and not a minimum. The Hobart 210 mvp mentions 22ga and gives a setting for it in its chart, therefore I tend to believe it can weld 22 ga. This means it likely does have the ability to output less voltage than 19 as a minimum. Without having the welder to test myself I can’t verify that it will indeed weld with .024 wire and thin sheet. Older transformer machines don’t have the adjustability of inverters, basically you have fewer ways to dial in heat to metal ratios. They tend to still weld very good and basically “dope” the settings for you, aka you can’t put your heat to metal ratios far out from ideal, which is actually a decent benefit (especially for new welders).

[@michaelfrancis3261]

Love this video, thank you so much for sharing. What kind of weld were you use in this video?

[@Cptnbond]

In stick welding, it's very important to control 'arc length'. When I'm using flux-core MIG, I was recommended by the weld supplier to use a 'stick out' of 1/2" to 5/8" on a 0.035" flux core wire, and in particular not being shorter than that. Is 'stick out' equally important as in 'arc length', and what has to change, and why if the flux core wire is thinner?

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

So the arc length is a weird thing with flux core wire. It has a tendency to not quite function like short circuit MiG in the sense it’s sort of turning to liquid before the wire hits the puddle. With short arc MiG the wire stabs the puddle and blows apart, repeating very fast. So the arc gap of gas shielded MiG is actually technically 0. Flux core is very close, tight arc. Stick does actually run with a consistent arc gap (zero arc gap is a stuck rod). Tig is also 100% arc gap process. The reason flux core doesn’t function well on DCEP like MiG is due to the fact the wire can’t handle the current increase running DCEP. The electrons hitting the wire from the plate would cause the thin walled tube to just melt into balls. You also need to produce shielding gas from the flux and having it hit the puddle, short/blow apart, and repeat would likely produce a ton of porosity of gas failing to escape the weld. In the video I had a issue with the wire burning back to the tip because it was essentially no longer in the short circuit MiG process and in a “non functional” spray arc mode. By having too high of voltage in relation to the starting feed rate the wire tended to burn back to the tip because it was welded on DCEP (more heat in the wire than the plate). This works great with super high wire feed because the actual arc will never hit the contact tip. Too low of wire feed and you get what happened to me (it had a literal tig arc from the metal to the contact tip) lol.

[@massa-blasta]

If you have mixed gas, would be fun to see a little .023 spray arc on a t-joint. 😲

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

I might give that a shot, a buddy has some 95-5 and I bet the .023 wire will hit spray a bit lower than .030 or .035. 😀

[@jimcaf57]

i owned a hobart 190 some years back the 210 mvps little brother i never put a meter on it but on 18-20 gauge with 023 it worked really good for autobody stuff but thinking back it was all spot welding not so much running beads ,, iv found with the fp200 having the luxury of inductance control when i had spoolarc 035 in it running the door chart settings my beads wouldnt flatten down and wet out to my liking until i turn the inductance to 8-10 would be interesting if you would see the same results with testing with the 023 on 1/8 vs adjusting voltage and wire speed

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

I will definitely fool around with the inductance. Being that I primarily tig and stick weld, I never bothered to buy a mig machine with controls like inductance. I know that it changes how fast the current ramps up from the shorting of the wire (higher means crispy arc and more heat input, lower means softer arc) but I haven’t really used it on much. Much like run in and burn back it really helps a person dial in things just right.

[@ezelk1337]

I have a Miller Millermatic 211 transformer welder. It doesn't have taps. It has a dial but without any digital readout. I do 18 and 20 gauge auto body welding with 023 wire. It works great but I had to play with the settings. I will have to see if I can put a meter on it to see what the Voltage and amperage is. You got me curious. Very informative video as always. Are you using the FirePower or the Dynasty machine today?

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

I was using the firepower machine. I am actually surprised at how well it could do with proper settings on that 22ga. It made it easy, I am not sure .030 flux core would have been able to weld it half as easy. I know I tried to stick weld it (that was the previous welds on that scrap) and needless to say I failed at that miserably 😅

[@beyondmiddleagedman7240]

The spot weld method works well to prevent distortion. But it will be ugly and it will require grinding. Thinnest I can ever do is 18ga. But .030 is the thinnest wire I have.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

The .023 and low settings made it real easy to weld that 22ga, I am actually surprised at how easy it was (I only tig weld thin stuff). .030 would surely be harder, I don’t even know if that would be possible.

[@ezekielgutierrez3300]

im wondering what machine and wire brand did you use to get that nice weld on the 20 gauge sheet metal? if you can provide that information would help me out. i want to start a project welding thin gauge sheet metal later this year and would like to purchase a dedicated machine.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

I used Hobart brand .024 wire and a firepower fp-200. The fp200 is the same welder as the esab 210em non multi process machine. The metal was also even thinner than 20ga, it was 22ga. I believe the welder could weld even thinner material, 24ga possibly.

[@ezekielgutierrez3300]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg Thank you Greg! I have a mig welder but it cannot drop to those low settings for this wire size and gauge metal. so i was looking around and found your video. let me tell you it is difficult to find information out there on this subject. keep up the great work. i really am looking forward to watching you push the limits on this series of wire size and gauge metal and curios to see what those welds will look like. thanks again and the best of success to you and your channel sir.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

@@ezekielgutierrez3300 I will be doing videos in the future for welding thin metal and tips for doing such things. I have very little to no experience doing auto body but I can weld, so I am sure I can make quality content to help people with thin metal welding. I will tell you I have done very little welding with the .024 wire and I am pretty amazed at what it will do with a good welder. It’s far better than flux core wire on 22ga. It’s no tig but it’s far easier/faster than tig.

[@VojislavCar-he3ii]

Which machine is going down to 13-14 Volts? Can You name one ?

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

A mig machine that’s capable of 20-30a of output will be able to weld the steel shown in the video. The machine needs to be able to run less than 16v and be able to stabilize the short arc at low wire feed speeds with .024 wire. Generally speaking most higher end 140 to 2000 amp machines are capable of that.

[@mkearn724]

It seemed odd that Hobart would make a machine that wouldn’t be capable of welding sheet metal. I looked up the chart online and it shows that it’s able to weld 24 gauge and thicker. I’m not sure what the tap settings translate to, but I’ve never known Hobart to bs really.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Yeah they state it will weld that thin but without having the welder it may be fairly difficult to do so. The newer inverters really brought a lot to the table with the ability at the extremes (like welding super thin). Every welder I grew up with (and most I used in school) were straight transformer machines, but I have seen a ton of positives towards inverters. It’s just too bad they generally don’t last as long as simple transformer machines.

[@tommelomme6761]

I am thinking if it is possible to overcome this with a resistor of some sort, creating a resistance between the "earth clamp" and the work peace creating a voltage drop. Perhaps a long strip of thin metal sheet will work. Or a electronic device that can achieve the voltage drop. Someone with the problem and have knowledge of electronics and have the skill can probably fix this. Maybe a very very long, or thinner, earth clamp wire will work! My .5 SEK.

[@tommelomme6761]

A 24V, or two, head light bulb in series with the "earth clamp" and the work peace!

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

You can create a voltage drop easily but unfortunately the drop in voltage will be met with a resistance to current as well. I will be honest, I am not exactly sure how a modern MiG welder controls voltage, older transformer types just had multiple taps on the transfer to control output voltage. Modern MiG welders rely on the fact the little wire can handle so little current that you never have a direct short for more than a instant (and thus the amperage is fairly under control). Your post kind of makes me want to make a welder to demonstrate how all of it works and for a learning tool for myself 😀

[@tommelomme6761]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg Yes. And I think that's the way to go, to lower the current. As I see it, anything you can shortcut to ground do cutting the voltage out, but not the current. So in my mind, I think it is the current that does the work, but, in symbios with voltage. As you said in your "mig voltage" video: the voltage control the arc. And I think the current doing the penetration. Thank you! Looking forward to that video.

[@skyfreakwi]

Bah! I weld 22 gauge with my flux core welder... (It's a Lincoln weld pack 100) I turn my volts down to A (whatever that is) and run maybe 2 1/2 (again whatever that is) for the speed. I hit the trigger and pull fast, real fast! I'll get a perfect weld low, flat, maybe .040 tall... I'll get that for about an inch and a half then a big hole. (Ok it's not perfect) then I just start a half inch away and hit another inch and a half. Only real downside is coming back to fill in all the holes. At least you can start on your old weld so you have a chance. Oh and there is no watching the puddle there is only a click and a thirty mile an hour drag. .030 flux core!

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

It’s amazing how travel speed can make up a lot when it comes to what would otherwise be sure failure. Familiarity and skill will get a otherwise impossible job done 😀. I draw the line at stick welding 22ga, that (for me) is failure with no other option 😅.