Malazan Magic, Warrens, and the RPG Origins with Ian C. Esslemont

Recently I had a chat with Steven Erikson about Magic and Malazan, but no discussion on the topic of Warrens and Magic in the Malazan world would be complete without bringing in the co-creator of the world, Ian C. Esslemont, to give his version of events and add to the discussion.
Esslemont was the one that introduced Erikson to role-playing games and AD&D in the first place, and so it was an opportunity to get his perspective on the magic in Malazan as well as magic in fantasy in general.
We had the by now expected issues with the internet (Why, internet goblins? WHY?), but Esslemont graciously soldiered through.
So, apologies for the quality of the video and audio which kept going in and out, we did our best.
If you would like to buy me a coffee or a book, Support me on Ko-Fi: ko-fi.com/crit...
Intro and Music by Professor Trip.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Playing a character smarter than yourself doesn't just happen in D&D -- it's an apt description of many academics (wearing tweed helps) 😁. This has been a magical conversation, and it was especially fascinating to hear about the origins of Warrens. I'll finish it later, but right now I've got to go don my tweed. My thanks to you both!

[@Paul_van_Doleweerd]

If the character you are playing is too different from yourself, then the RP part of RPG tends to fall by the wayside unless the GM can nudge you back on track. Same if the character has a unique skill set that the player is generally unfamiliar with. A pickpocket with a dexterity of 3 should be much more fun to play than one with 18...

[@DoUnicornsRead]

Ah, tweed -- a truely magic fabric. But will it work against those black light fireballs your nemesis was enquiring about? You might have to watch your back, Philip!🔥☄🐲

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@DoUnicornsRead No doubt about it!

[@Washeek]

Speaking/writing in third person usually does wonders with that.

[@timidalchemist8475]

I love that Malazan has two sides when it comes to their books. The academic and thematic side (Steven Erikson) and the fun and action pack side (ICE). It doesn’t fall one side and stick with it and that’s why I love the series so much.

[@vincoll1565]

When I met Steve in 2018 I told him about Zelazny 's Amber and he said to me it was an inspiration for Gardens of the Moon (the only Malazan Book published in French). I was happy I saw that. Not only the magic system, but the characterisation too, and the exposition that leave of lot of work for the reader. "These are books for the brain", he said. If only I knew. 😅 I hope to meet Cam again one day, because when I met him i haven't read any of his books. 😭

[@ACriticalDragon]

I hope that you get a chance to meet Cam soon. Thanks for watching, and thanks for commenting.

[@mezla_]

ARE YOU KIDDING ME, A.P.!? YOU INTERVIEWED THEM ABOUT THEIR GAMING IN THE MOST NARRATIVELY SATISFYING WAY! Seriously though, these interviews are like dreams come true

[@callinicobo5991]

Great discussion, as always. Finally Mr. Esslemont's books will be translated in italian. Next month "Night of Knives" will be published in Italy (title "La notte dei coltelli"). I hope the publisher will continue with the rest of his work.

[@RoxanaMagdaD]

It brings me a lot of joy to see Cam laughing and enjoying himself. This was a very entertaining conversation, thank you both :) Even though the internet connection is bad, I hope this will not discourage future discussions. I hope you will have more of these fantastic conversations with Cam :) Cheers and see you in the next one!

[@thefantasythinker]

As a long time D&D player, this discussion was priceless! Thanks A.P. (This is Jarrod by the way, I have a new handle.)

[@ZYXPQI]

Cam is awesome, Thank you for taking the time to talk about the magic !!

[@jona2486]

Thanks for bringing Cam on to chat! This was such a great discussion

[@DoUnicornsRead]

Great chat! I always loved how magic is conceptualised in Malazan. But it's nice to find out more about how this evolved especially now that I'm reading more Esslemont. Thanks again A.P. for giving us access to those two great writers!

[@DoctorBobnarAwesome]

Ow... I burnt my hand. I feel very betrayed that no one told me not to put my hand over a candle. But seriously, this was a great conversation!

[@CancelledPhilosopher]

Fascinating. I didn't know all of these details about RPGs and the Malazan magic system.

[@Gascon12]

As archeologists I would imagine Cam and Steven had influences from their studies. For example: the greek goddess Nyx, mother of gods, would be an inspiration for Mother Dark. And that is great, because it resonates with familiar concepts. Great interview AP! I really appreciate this "other side of the coin" of the topic. Thanks!

[@EricMcLuen]

Did he fire five shots or six? I kind of lost track myself. It still warms my heart when people correct D&D to AD&D. But again, a fascinating duscussion comparing games to books. Authors do not have the luxury of coming out with an errata when players soon find a glitch breaking the system. And the more rules, the more often this occurs. But their games seem to be more focused in the story rather than the actual rules which seem to have been enforced somewhat sporadically. If I want to play a game I will read the rulebook. I don't need essentially a rulebook in my fantasy, or elaborate attempts tonexplain the science in my sci fi. But Inremember the fight scene in the hallway. I had to watch it a couple times as it looked like they were going for one take but it looked liked it took 2. It did not have to take much for the actor to act tired.

[@ravenbellebooks5665]

Great discussion! I'm not done with the BofF 10, but I'm excited to get to read Esslemont's work as well!

[@ACriticalDragon]

Thank you. I am glad that you enjoyed it.

[@gimpsor]

Great video touching on some recurring themes on the channel. It seems there is a tug of war at play with the description of magic in fantasy. On the one hand, we are frequently used to a mechanistic description of the world as empiricism has come to largely dominate the fundamental understanding of reality. Using a hard magic system skews toward this path. Many of us want to know how things work, even if it is only in an incomplete and rudimentary manner. This path of describing the rules and process of magic can reduce it down to a set of if/then logical operations. Some forms of magical systems are even described as if they were the programming language of the universe. With the appropriate commands, you can rewrite reality. What the system can and cannot do is clearly delineated and sets the bounds of what is possible within the system. This path also eliminates the imagination and wonder from magic. The whimsy is gone. Magic is reduced to coding or weaving (a prototype for coding) and reading about the constraints and rules of a system can become tedious and dull. On the other hand, we have a there are soft magic systems that tend to leave the boundaries of magic undefined and blurry. This path allows us to wonder and the possibility of how magic works. It remains a mystery at the heart. However, when applied to a narrative this method can come off as cheating or a deus ex machina that does whatever we want whenever we need it. When there are no rules or boundaries for magic the system simply devolves into wish fulfillment for the user which can break the immersion of they can do whatever they want at any moment. Your example of Superman applies here. Magic can become a get-out jail card that when used excessively and without appropriate limits or contextualization on the use eliminates tension or suspense. Poorly defined boundaries of the soft magic system allow for wild inconsistency in how magic works in practice. The Malazan world seems to balance this tension well. The authors tend towards the softer side of the spectrum but the magic is still bound within a set of principles and guidelines-Until it isn’t. The boundaries exist but aren’t perfectly defined. This leaves wiggle room for how the system works in practice. This is a contrast to systems like those developed by Sanderson who creates a myriad of rules for different types of magic. The rules are explicit and defined. Rules within rules and systems within systems each bound to specific worlds and applications. Malazan also contrasts with Lord of the Ring where the magic exists but it is much more enigmatic and part of the tapestry of the world and emanates the power of the beings within it. D&D-style spells aren’t being cast. Magic in the Lord of the Rings is ethereal, perhaps eluding the mystery of the divine nature of magic in the setting.

[@ireneylk1061]

Yet Malazan's magic system suffers greatly for it. In Lord of the Rings, the magic is so undefined and not used that is just background. Being reaaaally pre D&D it doesn't have to behave like the magic we think of these days. Magic did not use to be defined by fireballs and zapping your opponent so it isn't. Magic in the old myths and folktales just was. And that's what LoTR gives us with a good dollop of divine power. And that's that. Not really used, not necessary to define. Sanderson's very defined magic becomes truly a part of the world. This world is different than ours but works within a certain level of parameters. Physics of a sort if you wish. And I may be more ready to be amazed but, say, a dude flying through the air by tossing a coin is pretty fantastic to me. But then our real world and how it works and the life forms of our planet and how their little quirks through evolution never seem to amaze me so there's that. Much as I love Malazan I cannot make heads or tales in the magic's actual origins (don't tell me chaos, that just doesn't work especially since chaos is so ill defined). Nor can I tell you what its usual limitations are. Nor what the whole deal with K'rul is. Or Otataral and the dragons. Or any other aspect. Like at all. Yeah there are different "realms" of some sort or another and you can draw elemental power from those and portal and move through them. And there are some gates? in some of them? that play some role or another. I've witnessed D&D games with more depth of magic systems. I'm not saying there's none here, it's just not explained. I can (marginally) roleplay a LoTR story being a magic user, I can definitely roleplay a Sanderson story, I cannot do so for Malazan. Oh, and rule breaking can only take you thus far in anything that has to be taught for someone to use. For it means there are some rules of how things work. Else you end up with Star Wars Force. Magic does or doesn't work depending on the plot.

[@barrykennedy4571]

Hey man how's it going really enjoying your channel love the access to erikson and esslemont I found gardens of the moon in a book shop closing sale for £1 about 10 years ago at that point I hated fantasy and had only read lord of the rings in the genre my thing was Sci fi but I was captured instantly by gardens of the moon and the rest of the series sometimes I have to slap myself out of the malazan world the only thing that affected me in this way was the dune serious particularly god emperor of dune but sorry I'm waffling here can you recommend any other fantasy that would appeal to a malazan addict? Thanks again for the content videos and opinions and such top drawer sir👌😎👽😎

[@ACriticalDragon]

Thanks for watching. In terms of books like Malazan, it all depends on what you mean by 'like'. The Black Company by Cook is gritty, ambiguous military fantasy. Wars of Light and Shadow by Wurts is a long complex, high fantasy with brilliant and complex writing. Book of the New Sun by Wolfe is ambiguous and complex with hidden meanings and multiple readings.

[@barrykennedy4571]

I have started on the black company it surprisingly landed in my lap a day or so after I messaged you, I like the malazan books because errikson seemlessly jumps from sappers laughing about a hair coat burning then he is explaining a discussion between gods and ascendants everyone has potential in errikson eyes I think? but characters like Dassem, Rake, Onrack and Trull, Fiddler, Silchas, Whiskeyjack, Tool, Cotilion etc(I had to stop this list or I would still be writing it just now🤣) the list is endless errikson writes flawed, tragic, humane characters who reach into us and take hold and grow then his lack of hand holding allows us to fill in these characters blind spots ourselves it's the stuff he doesn't write(hope that makes sense lol) this is what drew me to malazan and keeps drawing me back. Thanks for the reply and the book suggestions I will try to find the time to read them👍😎

[@PatrickLugo]

I finally fished watching this video and was glad I did. Especially for that Superman tangent which got me thinking. Have you ever read Grant Morrison & Frank Quietly’ s ALL STAR SUPERMAN? It took my top-slot for working around & WITH The Superman Problem. I’d certainly welcome yours thoughts on it if you have. And if you haven’t … I’d 100% recommend it (FWiW)

[@ACriticalDragon]

I have read it and it is a great story. Although my favourite is Red Son.

[@criticizedreviews1081]

Hey A.P I had 2 questions, 1. when are you gonna do a book collection vid on what you have? 2. Is there any recommendations for fantasy books you taught academicly or a list of what you taught in a college class.

[@squanchy666]

Holding my hand over a candle through the whole podcast

[@arandomsteve2251]

Instructions unclear, can I remove my hand from the candle yet?

[@theskyisteal8346]

Something in the back of my mind tells me that The Winter Soldier's metal arm also came with bodywide cybernetic augmentations or at the very least some expiremental recreation of the super soldier serum. The only reason the arm is particularly noticable is because he lost the original and they needed to replace it.

[@ACriticalDragon]

It is still attached to flesh, and that connection is still susceptible to shear.

[@birdiesanders7788]

28:24 33:12 45:56

[@LiamsLyceum]

I have that old Players Handbook, and the old Dungeons Masters Guide. The magic in DnD is a more codified Vancian system, taken right from The Dying Earth. I too, don't really care for min-maxing.

[@osoisko1933]

Damn, I was going to set myself on fire and open a hole in a damn to put it out. A test of will to see if I could free the water while my flesh is consumed.😂

[@markototev]

Just because anyone can have power, it doesn't quite equalize things. Just like in the US anyone could have a gun, that doesn't encessarily stop bad actors from acting bad. And in the opening of the first malazan book, we have a random soldier slapping an old woman and killing her without a second thought.

[@Paul_van_Doleweerd]

I still want to hear Steve or Cam put a name to the warren of Time...

[@EricMcLuen]

Tomorrow.....

[@MrRorosuri]

🤗

[@Washeek]

But if you want to simulate that kind of magic, it's cool to handle flame with your hands. I've done that and TBH it's closest I've ever gotten to the feeling of real magic in reality. I wonder if that's what drives pyromaniacs. They're just missing the magic. Friend got burned and stoped working with fire, when I saw him watch other people do their routines, he had the saddest face I've ever seen on a person first hand.

[@stevenmuise9285]

......so it was all an illusion?

[@Washeek]

Sleight of hand...

[@EricMcLuen]

Did he fire five shots or six? I kind of lost track myself. It still warms my heart when people correct D&D to AD&D. But again, a fascinating duscussion comparing games to books. Authors do not have the luxury of coming out with an errata when players soon find a glitch breaking the system. And the more rules, the more often this occurs. But their games seem to be more focused in the story rather than the actual rules which seem to have been enforced somewhat sporadically. If I want to play a game I will read the rulebook. I don't need essentially a rulebook in my fantasy, or elaborate attempts tonexplain the science in my sci fi. But Inremember the fight scene in the hallway. I had to watch it a couple times as it looked like they were going for one take but it looked liked it took 2. It did not have to take much for the actor to act tired.