Mamiya Press Super 23, Honest Review - and a special guest

[@captwins1]

This was a great review, and I anxiously waited for each turn of the corner where the next, perplexing, seemingly unusable feature is unveiled. Thank you. It’s almost as if this is “anti-design” and defies the normal user to master its use. This would be the kind of camera with a piece of paper, scotch taped to the top, with order of operation spelled out for the poor pool photographer that had to use it. I am going to be on the look out for one to add to the home museum.

[@TechHeritage]

Glad you enjoyed it! Even with my own detailed precautions, I missed 3 out of the precious 9 shots. 2 of them were double exposed and one was blank because I advanced to the next frame twice. But I got 6 good pictures as a reward for the frustrations!

[@captwins1]

@@TechHeritage I’m running out of videos to watch so I do hope you stick with it. I will anxiously stay tuned. I just watched the Contax RTS video, a camera I used myself, but did not have a good appreciation for its thoughtful design until now.

[@luyangche8278]

Thanks for the interesting review, the comparison of the film back to a chair made me chuckle. One of the hidden advantages of the Mamiya press series is that its clunkiness and involved operating procedure makes it barely desirable for the modern film crowd over other wonderful film cameras, and this means that the prices are a lot lesser than something like a Hasselblad or even Mamiya's later RB67/RZ67. I have a medium format project in the work which involves building around an old medium format film camera, and this is the best candidate for the project at a very reasonable price. The fact that every part of the camera is so "un-integrated" also means that it is hopefully simple to modify and build around.

[@TechHeritage]

Since you successfully passed the Chair test, we know that this comment is from a real Human Being, not an AI Bot. So, as a fellow Human, I thank you for your positive comments. Your medium format project sounds very mysterious and interesting. Why not share the concept here, so that we can all cheer you on? Whatever it is, I am sure Mamiya Press has a lot of empty space inside to accommodate it. My guess is that you want to insert either a digital sensor or an Instax film holder inside it. Am I getting close?

[@luyangche8278]

@@TechHeritage Thank you for the encouragement fellow human, may we stand strong in these trying times filled with the scourge of AI bots. Yes, you are very close, I'm aiming to achieve a 6x9 digital camera, but I don't think such a digital sensor exists in the first place, and even if they do and can be custom-made, it will be astronomically expensive. So basically I'm aiming to fit a 6cm long linear CCD sensor (like the stuff you find in digital scanners, a tall and very thin sensor) into the camera, and scan it 9cm across, to simulate a 6x9 digital sensor size. I did quite a lot of digging at possible surrogate film cameras, and the other cameras are so tightly engineered I will have to scale back on my quest for the ultimate sensor size to fit everything inside, but the spacious-ness and loose tolerances afforded by the Mamiya press is perfect, as you allude to. This linear scanning sensor technique thing isn't new, and there has even been early commercial digital medium format backs that used it, but as far as I know, no one has come close to pushing past a 645 size, so a 6x9 size will be really great achievement if I can pull it off. If all goes to plan, I have future plans to integrate WiFi and signal processing techniques into the build too, but I won't get ahead of myself for now.

[@TechHeritage]

Wow, what a project. I love it. Here is an idea: Use the mechanical version of the in-camera panorama photos. Get 4 cheap early generation digital cameas. Take out the sensors and put them together edge to edge to form a larger rectangle. This will effectively create 4 pictures which can be stitched together in Photoshop of Darkroom later. The picture will have two lines of blank spaces crossing the picture. For that, you can create a mechanism to quickly shift the 4 sensors about 5mm diagonally. Take another picture so that the same sensors cover the previous blank zone. The two digital pictures can be belended together again (and automated) to cover the blank zone, giving the equivalent of a very large sensor. The diagonal sensor shift can probably be automated with a spring action activated a cable release.

[@justlikeswimming5988]

I have 2 varieties of the mamiya press cameras, and they are my favorite medium format so far! No system is more flexible, from the multiple size backs (from 6x4.5 to 6x9) to ground-glass viewer to use with cut film (6x9). I'll have one back with b&w and the other with color film - it's easy to switch thanks to the dark slide. Also, the bellows back allows for precise adjustment of focal plane and perspective correction. From what I understand, print magazines would only accept larger negatives for publication, this was the original niche of the press cameras. You took some wonderful shots with the super 23! The 50mm lens is a great lens (not one I've used, but I like the 75, 127 and 150). This is a great camera thanks to its flexibility, but an endless source of frustration if you're not into deliberate, careful photography. Is it worth the effort? I think so, but certainly understand this system isn't for everyone.

[@TechHeritage]

I am secretly a huge fan of large format and panorama film photography. The larger, the better. I keep looking for the optimum combination of compact 6x9 camera with the best lens. Our very first video was the restoration of Agfa Billy, a 90 year old folding camera, which gave great results in the film test. Then I switched to Fujifilm XT-1 which gave exceptional panorama results on 35mm film. Then came Mamiya 6 (first one) which broke and had to be returned to Japan. Then this Mamiya Press Super 23. It was a pleasure to use it and watch the priceless expressions on the faces of the on-lookers. Despite my own words of caution, I wasted 3 out of 12 shots by either forgetting to wind, before shooting or winding without shooting, just in case I had already shot.

[@justlikeswimming5988]

Frustrating, I know! But you get better with practice. Think of doing a 'dance' with your mamiya press, similar to the 'dance' people have to do with 4x5 cameras! I found using the mamiya press was great preparation for making fewer mistakes on my 4x5. Enjoy! The shots were wonderful!@@TechHeritage

[@josephomalley1526]

You missed out on the 65mm, 90mm and 127mm lenses for some explicable reason.

[@TechHeritage]

Thank you for pointing out that other lenses are also available. This is helpful to others who may consider buying. Those I mentioned are the ones released with the camera upon launch and included in the manual. The full list of lenses is here: 50, 65, 75, 90, 100, 127, 150, 200, 250

[@randallstewart1224]

The Mamiya 23 series of cameras was not inspired by the Linhof Press cameras, as suggested. Rather, it is a nearly direct copy and derivative of the Graflex XL press camera series. They share a modular design consisting of separate body shells, interchangeable lenses, and interchangeable backs in various roll film formats. The XL takes standard Graflex roll film backs, so they are quite a bit more compact than the unique Mamiya backs, which stick out all over. They both offered limited accessories, including close up devices, which were quite impractical. They share the same lack of integration, meaning that every function is a separate operation. The lenses mounted for the XL were the best available at the time, making the system significantly more expensive. The Mamiya lenses are adequate for their optical needs, but generally of lower performance compared to other medium format optics of the day. Graflex used a lot of plastic in critical parts of the XL system, largely untested at the time, which structurally failed over time. Between its high initial cost and its material flaws and failures, XL bodies and lenses are some=what rare today, and when found are likely to be defective. One competitor back in the day was the Konica Omega system, which has a similar body appearance, most having interchangeable backs, and interchangeable lenses. The Konis offer only 6x7cm format. As a system camera, the components are much more integrated in their operation, and by far the fastest operating camera of their type. The Koni lenses are optically superior to the Mamiya, but fewer and present a narrower range of focal lengths. Overall, the Konis are much more robust and better built than the XL or Mamiya models.

[@TechHeritage]

Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed contribution. As a source of research, may I suggest consulting with camera-wiki.org, especially under the article "Linhof Technica Press 70". In the 3rd sentence it provides this opinion: "It seems to have inspired competing products including the Graflex XL (1965) and Mamiya Super 23 (1967)". So, was Mamiya inspired by Graflex or both of them were inspired by Linhof Technica Press 70? Who knows!

[@randallstewart1224]

@@TechHeritage Well. I was clearly wrong about my thought that the Mamiya Press was in concept copied from the Graphlex XL, as the first several versions of the Mamiya pre-dated the misbegotten XL, with which I had my only awful camera buying experience. As for the origin of the Linhof Pess 70, it dated from 1963, much after the early Mamiya models. It replace the Linhof Teknika (?sp) but that camera was more inthe style of the old Graflex bellows, folding press cameras.

[@rotfai45mm]

I use the Mamiya Press for infrared and panorama photography with very good results . It is also a very good 6x7 camera . The lenses have a very smooth bokeh . I would like to have the 1:2.8 100mm for the Press . Yes there is the Mamiya 7 but way to expensive for me and it is not build like a tank like the Press Super 23 .

[@TechHeritage]

Thank you for sharing a use case for the medium format panorama cameras. I am a total fan of panorama film photography and you will see many examles of it in the film test sections of the camera reviews on this channel. I wonder if you considered the available options from Fujifilm which are quite a bit smaller, more practical to use and high quality, for example GSW690 and TX-1. I personally use the Zeiss Ikon Nettar 6x9 folding camera which is even smaller than all of the above and gives good results without breaking my neck.

[@rotfai45mm]

@@TechHeritage I used 42x84 mm from the 6x9 negative and than the 50 , 75 and 100 mm are very good panorama lenses that do'n't cost a lot of money .

[@dlyon9673]

Nice photos!

[@TechHeritage]

Glad you like them! But what did you think of the honest review?

[@dlyon9673]

@@TechHeritage The review is well done although it made me realize I probably don't want to own one of these cameras as they look so cumbersome to use!

[@basedmax9029]

maybe go over how quickly this camera can focus? how sharp the images are compared to its competitors both in medium format or 4x5? its hard to set up a shot but only one picture makes it onto the magazine, so how about review how well it takes that once picture? what applications would this suit better? awesome review, told me everything i needed to know about this beast, buying one now haha.

[@TechHeritage]

That is the nature of an Honest review. The brutal fact is that at the time of Mamiya Press Super 23 there were plenty of other medium format cameras which had equally good or better lenses, clever mechanics, lighter, smaller, used by more professional photographers, you could go on.... But this camera has a charm of its own and I am sure you will enjoy it very much. It is very affordable also, especially if you buy at an Auction like I did. I recommend that you also have a look at the Mamiya C3 Professional video on this channel. Same kinds of issues and the same charm.

[@sky._watcher2946]

Hey first off, I love this video very Infomatic. I just one question, I have the old ( one of the first generation ) Mamiya press super 23 and I was wondering if I can use the lenses on the newer Camera?

[@TechHeritage]

Sorry about the delay. I just saw this comment. What do you mean by newer Cameras? Which camera?

[@sky._watcher2946]

@@TechHeritage the update version I think it was built from the 80s-90s ( the one you showed in the vid 😆)

[@landesnorm]

TH, What an enjoyable video! Also, what a monster of a camera. What about the Koni-Omega? How does it stack against the Mamiya 23? Seems like the M23 was made to occupy a niche between the 4x5 Speed Graphic and the Hassselblad. And designed to combine the difficulty of a 4x5 press camera with a dubious (not fully thought out) modularity that didn't quite rival nor mimic the Hasselblad. Of course, we have to be fair to Mamiya-san; who knows what hurdles he had to overcome to produce this camera? That being said, Mamiya medium format cameras were built to last and with good optics, IMHO. Since I used 35mm, 6x6 (Hasselblad and Mamiya C3), and 4x5 (mostly monorail) cameras in my commercial work, the 4x5 shooting habits transferred easily to the Mamiya C3, though I seldom took the Mamiya out of the studio. I think the best feature of both Mamiyas--C3 & 23--is that you see the subject at the moment of exposure--not so with SLRs.

[@TechHeritage]

Thanks for sharing your experience and thoughtful comments. Can you please explain the last sentence of your comment: “I think the best feature of both Mamiyas -C3 &23 - is that you see the subject at the moment of exposure - not so with SLRs”. Why is it important not to have the micro-second blink of the viewfinder in SLR cameras? I recall the first generation iPhone deliberately replicated that blink, as if it was an expected feature of a “real” camera. BTW we have a video on that iPhone too.

[@wilsonlaidlaw]

Another question - I am thinking of buying either the 50mm or 75mm lens for my Super 23. Do you know if both of these have flash sync. I have a Metz 45-CT1 hammerhead flash with the wide angle diffusor and am thinking of a lens for architectural interiors. The 100mm lens I have is a bit too narrow for that purpose.

[@TechHeritage]

Yes, both lenses have the flash sync port. You can get those lenses on Ebay between $250 and $350. For a real wide angle lens, surely you want the 50mm for interior photography.

[@wilsonlaidlaw]

@@TechHeritage When I used to do Super Yacht interior photos for the brokers' brochures (gave it up as they were appalling payers) I found the ideal lens on a full frame digital camera, a Leica M9 at the time, to be a 24 or 25mm. In the end I used a Zeiss ZM Biogon 25, as that was more rectilinear than my 24 mm Leica Elmarit. I also have a Zeiss Biogon 21mm and a Leica Super Elmar-M 18mm and whereas great lenses for landscapes, there was just too much perspective distortion for the yacht interiors. The 50 Sekor is equivalent to a 21mm when used with the 6 x 9 back. Somewhere, if I can find where I have ever so carefully put it away, I have a Graflex Graflok 6 x 7 back, which I think will fit on the Super 23. Not only is that more economical on film but cuts off the extreme edges of the 50mm Sekor image, making it close to a 25mm equivalent on a 35mm camera. For the 6 x 9 the 75mm lens might answer better. If I can find the 6 x 7 back, I will go for the 50mm but if I can't, I will go for the 75. Another advantage of the 6 x 7 back is that it has a dark slide whereas I don't have one for the 6 x 9 back. I am told the Graflex dark slides, which one can find fairly easily, are a fraction too thick to slide into the Mamiya backs. Update just bought a 6 x 9 dark slide newly made from Chinese seller - not expensive but I hope it fits.

[@khanscombe619]

What are my lens mount options? Can I adapt to other Mamiya or like lenses? What about a 645 mask or back?

[@TechHeritage]

You will probably find answers to most of your questions here: camera-wiki.org/wiki/Mamiya_Press#:~:text=Mamiya%20Super%2023,-This%20upgraded%20version&text=It%20came%20with%20a%20new,available%20in%20silver%20and%20black. Unfortunately there is no good news in relation to alternative lens adaptors or 645. Super 23 had 5 lenses of its own, all good and can still be found. Backs are only for 6x7 and 6x9 and cut film and pack film.

[@dj1NM3]

I'd be astonished, if given the choice and 6x6 negatives were a must, that a press photographer would chose this monster over something like a Pentacon Six or a Bronica S with a prism finder, considering that both of these are about 1kg (2 lb) lighter and have the SLR advantage of TTL focusing. I could easily imagine using this in a studio environment, mostly because of the weight, size and non-communication of the lens, camera body and film-back, which could be easily worked-around in a controlled environment.

[@TechHeritage]

Strange but true, especially in Japan. As the name suggests these were regarded as the Press Photographers tool, not really a studio tool. But then, look at the heavy stuff the press photographers were carrying before this type of camera. Maybe group-think had something to do with it.

[@bernardkealey6449]

The less communication between parts, the less there is to break. These were not “studio queens”, they were designed to be dropped… well to survive being dropped… All the things like “did I wind?” , “have I cocked?” are annoying for casual usage, but these were designed as daily use tools. Press photographers developed the sort of “muscle memory” that airline pilots have - versus private pilots who might only fly 100 hours a year. Thanks very much for demonstrating the technical movements, most people don’t highlight those. You mentioned “impracticality” of using them - but if you’re doing architectural or technical art landscape photography or anything else where movement is warranted, ground glass composition and focus is the only way to go imho… The comparison to the Nikon F is not really fair; for press work - especially magazine vs newspaper - grain and film size was a massive consideration. A better comparison would be the Pentax 6x7 family, but that alas suffered from its own limitations - weight, lack of interchangeable backs, and single frame size. Really like your narration and demonstration style, and happy to subscribe.

[@TechHeritage]

Mmm.. that is an interesting theory worth testing. I'm managing a team for a project. They keep making mistakes due to bad communication. If I tell them to stop all communications maybe the outcome will improve. I will report when I finish the experiment.

[@andrewwilkin1923]

Awkward camera to use but the 6x9 negatives make it worthwhile. Have an original Mamiya Press and that is even more "interesting". The 6x9 back has red windows so it will take 6x6 and 6x45 assuming you have loaded the relevant mask in the back before loading the film. There was also a corresponding format mask for the viewfinder. The old backs had a wind on knob on the left hand side as opposed to the right side lever of the later ones. It makes winding on fun. There were other lenses available. Mine has the 90mm f3.5 but only has built in viewfinder masks for the 90 and 150mm.

[@TechHeritage]

Yes, "interesting" is a subtle way to describe these. Not the height of sophistication or clever industrial design, even for their time, but objects of curiosity and fun for the archeologists of the next Century. I fully agree the pictures that come out on that huge 6x9 frame are almost 8 times larger than 35mm and very sharp.

[@savinggracechurch4112]

I prefer the earlier 23 model as these have a tilt back standard for altering the focus plane.

[@TechHeritage]

Actually, the model that I demonstrated also has the tilt back. I demonstrated it in the video.

[@savinggracechurch4112]

​@@TechHeritageI'll have to check one out as I wanted something fully manual to teach photography with.

[@wilsonlaidlaw]

Anyone got any suggestions for a neck strap for the 23. I had hoped that the clip into slot type strap for my Rolleiflex 3003 would fit but the lugs on the Rolleiflex have a wider slot than those on the lugs on the Mamiya Super 23. As an elderly arthritic, I am finding the camera with the 6 x 9 roll film back very heavy on my very gnarly hands and a neck strap would make the camera feel a bit safer to lug around. This is particularly when I am on my mobility scooter, where I need both hands to drive and work the power/forward/reverse levers.

[@TechHeritage]

I would recommend Peak Design quick connect straps. That is what I use. It takes a few seconds to connect and dis-connect.

[@wilsonlaidlaw]

@@TechHeritage Many thanks, I have contacted Peak Design with the dimensions of the slot in the strap lugs on the Super 23 (11.8 x 3mm) to get their suggestions.

[@flowermaze___]

What a nightmare. Mamiya sure had some interesting design ideas - why are they so highly regarded again? 😮😅

[@TechHeritage]

The Mamiya cameras designed by Seiichi Mamiya, the founder and chief designer were very clever and have stood the test of time. Please watch our video on Mamiya SIX and see the fascinating history. Apparently this Press Camera series was designed by others who were less fussy about design refinement.

[@MrCouvade]

Try a 6x9 type iii back.

[@TechHeritage]

Yes, “interesting” is to put it mildly. Read this all the way down to thread 14 and enjoy the comedy: www.photrio.com/forum/threads/shutter-release-on-a-mk3-mamiya-universal-6x9-film-back.166817/

[@pwood5733]

I like to buy things that make me do all the work lol 😂🎉

[@TechHeritage]

Yes, there is a lot of patience and exploration involved in doing everything yourself. It is also a lesson in keeping your nerves calm while you do that. It is a replacement for Yoga and Meditation for the true believers.

[@pwood5733]

No surprise nikon wiped them out

[@TechHeritage]

It is the Darwininan Natural Selection in the consumer tech world; the survival of the fittest. We put them in to the museums and admire their short and glorious life. But move on with better things.