Manchester City's 115 Charges - What Could Happen? | EP 47

With Everton having been docked ten points for breaching Premier League financial rules, Gary and Alan are joined by journalist Nick Harris of Sporting Intelligence to discuss the reasoning behind the dramatic decision.
Also discussed are the implications for Manchester City, currently facing 115 charges for alleged breaches of the League’s financial rules. Charges Manchester City deny.
Anyone wanting to read the full reasons for the Everton judgement can do so here: resources.premierleague.com/p...
00:00 - Intro
01:01 - Why Everton Got Regulated
05:22 - What Other Clubs Are In A Similar Place?
10:00 - Everton’s Appeal
11:50 - Why Are Man City Different?
15:29 - Clubs Suing Everton
18:45 - A Can Of Worms
21:00 - Best Time To Lose 10 Points?
23:00 - Players And Ownership
26:05 - Independent Regulators
27:53 - What Happens Now?

[@xPRSNx-qy7ox]

I don’t remember anyone saying it was harsh when Leeds got -10 and then -15 the following season

[@adb9231]

Yep. And Swindon having the book thrown at them. And West Ham getting a pass as a “loved London club” when they clearly breached the rules.

[@JPayne95]

It's crazy how much sway London and Manchester has on English football

[@rigsby1454]

Nice having someone who knows what he's talking about rather than someone just saying IT'S HARSH.

[@Achtung73]

And allowing them to speak.

[@LloydBrodrick-ne5ei]

Could have said more… on the west ham issue he said others might have a case? The PL allowed those signings and the compo was an out of court settlement. If they had a case was not really tested. Then you have Leicester 21m overspend 3.2m fine.

[@going2Mars]

@@Daftdrunkkit sounds like Everton could have taken action to comply with the rule but, in effect, willfully did not resolve the issue. That could make it worse than going into administration.

[@Ericing20]

he was wrong about almost everything though. Said the premier league have nothing to do with the independent panel which is just blatantly false

[@dragonballfanscantread2383]

​@@Daftdrunkk Don't break the rules.

[@bluecheese4877]

Everton breached FFP at the end of 21/22 when they released their audited financial statements. It’s taken 1 year to resolve one charge, so expect City charges to take 115 years.

[@TwitchingBomb]

They were ok with it until the independent regulator (which it needs) was about to come in. The case opened in March 2023 which was way after Man City's case were opened.

[@kyroplastics9039]

@@TwitchingBomb Yes it's basically the premier league bricking it that someone actually independent might start start looking at their processes more closely. "No problems over here guv' we keep ah house in order!"

[@PedroPorridge]

A bit like the Manchester United recruitment team, far too slow

[@lsd358]

​@@PedroPorridgeTrue 😂

[@severnsea3924]

@@PedroPorridge Ah, so that's who you support. What a surprise.

[@JasonConlan75]

As an Everton fan I along with a LOT of others have no issue with the verdict because we broke the rules but we do have a major issue with the severity of the punishment 10 points for a PSR breach is one more than if we'd have gone into administration which carries a 9 point penalty.....

[@bazhughes5625]

Nothing in football makes any sense anymore.

[@Boss-zo4lw]

If City are not heavily punished then the rest of the clubs should go on strike

[@drdassler]

You can't compare it.

[@user-et3ns9ym4l]

I thought Everton Had.

[@kriissyy09ify]

Apparently some of the clubs don't want them in the league and if that does happen, there's no guarantees the EFL allows them to enter their system.

[@NealeSmithy]

Power to the people

[@dnc9952]

Assuming they are guilty of course 🙄

[@LFC_LB]

Love Nick's voice and the simple way he effortlessly explained all the details. Best summary I've heard yet. Let's have him back soon!

[@johngumbar5762]

Why did I just KNOW you'd like N Harris lol

[@georgeyboy5256]

@@johngumbar5762 Liverpool fans and Nick Harris isn't it! Both in each others ring pieces.

[@PedroPorridge]

If ManCheaty 115+ are being obstructive and not cooperating as has been reported then the charges should stand guilty as charged.

[@brianshockledge3241]

Too many if`s and maybe`s.

[@PedroPorridge]

You mean too many charges for ManCheaty 115+ to be ignored- not 1 or 2 or 3 but 115+ cheating charges brought by the footballing authorities

[@brianshockledge3241]

@@PedroPorridge Oh, it`s 115+ now is it enlighten me on what the charges are because you obviously know while nobody else does.

[@anis6800]

@@brianshockledge3241he shut up real quick 😂😂

[@madmark1957]

Can't do that because the basis of the legal system is innocent until proven guilty. If that happened then anyone charged with anything in the UK who tried to avoid ending up in court would then have to be guilty as charged. So the basis of English law would be subverted permanently. I don't support Man City btw in case you think this is a defence of them, I am defending one the basic legal principles of English law.

[@colloquialsoliloquy6391]

Serie A are like 20 years ahead of the Prem when it comes to punishing elite club for cheating. I reckon we are at the first phase of what the secret footballer dad said would happen to football. "It'll all disappear up its own arse"

[@kriissyy09ify]

Serie A has a prolonged history with cheating that goes beyond FFP. FFP is still a relatively new thing for English football and a lot of these charges against Chelsea and City date back to a decade ago

[@arnoldsaunders6073]

It does not stop them from doing so.

[@dnc9952]

It used to be the top league in Europe also.

[@GermanChickenwing]

Does that stopped Juventus from doing it over and over again? F no

[@declanshanahan3888]

@@GermanChickenwing Weren't they bribing ref's? That's a different ball game

[@craigmartins997]

Suggesting the panel is “completely independent from the premier league” when the panel is selected by the premier league, and two premier league employees were on it is a flat out falsehood

[@JJJJuice]

Panel is not selected by the premier league. The premier league chose a chair for the panel to start, the chair then chose 10-15 panelists to serve a 10 year term. Every case 3 panelists are assigned to the case depending on the panelists’ expertise and the subject of the case.

[@severnsea]

@@JJJJuice You seriously expect people to believe that the PL would choose a chair without some sort of discussion about who that chair would choose for their panel?

[@LloydBrodrick-ne5ei]

The chair, it is alleged, has represented Leeds several times. That’s the Leeds who now want to sue Everton. It’s all very suspect. The rules also state, for such significant penalties, that you had to gain a sporting advantage. The commission stated Everton did not gain a sporting advantage, hence it should have been a fine.

[@JJJJuice]

@@LloydBrodrick-ne5ei except the commission did conclude that they gained a sporting advantage citing Sheffield Weds vs The Football League as precedence.

[@JJJJuice]

@@severnsea why the hell would they care who they choose for the panel, the premier league isn’t getting investigated the clubs are. The premier league wants their power back from the clubs, and this is how they plan on doing that.

[@georgeyboy5256]

2:20 The rules are there to protect clubs, first inaccuracy, the EFL's FFP did nothing for Bury.

[@Do27gg]

Exactly 👏🏼

[@lilbaz8732]

That's like saying seatbelts don't protect drivers because someone died in a car crash.

[@OldCharlieRum1903]

And only 10% of Everton’s £19m overspend would have saved the Shakers.

[@damedusa5107]

@@OldCharlieRum1903it wasn’t even 19 tho. It was much more. A lot was taken out of total by negotiations.

[@serptimis1552]

​@lilbaz8732 it's like saying the penalty for not wearing your seat belt is a broken neck. Potentially ruining a club financially to prevent financial problems is nonsense

[@StevoMusicManUK]

Very interesting show, Nick's points were clear and precise. Correct Man City judgement needs to come out asap.

[@andyvilla4489]

The irony of FFP being to protect clubs from financial self harm - when the punishment will send them to the Championship and financially hamstring the club into the future.

[@user-zm9xf7mo4p]

Irony? Tell that to the clubs that were below Everton though

[@mattsmith5421]

Instead of keeping on increasing debt until administration or liquidation hits, exactly what it's meant to do.

[@dnc9952]

Are you suggesting it’s just a shame to protect the “big” clubs? Whilst not considering debt or allowing smaller teams have have investments and therefore struggling to compete?

[@hunsler1006]

​@@user-zm9xf7mo4pthe fans of club's below Everton generally accept relegation was their own fault. Not to mention the report even said Everton did not gain a sporting advantage

[@russellward4624]

That's a lie it was about self harm. It was to protect rich clubs and reduce competition.

[@markbevington7600]

Birmingham City had a 9 point deduction for the same offence (but the amount was less than Everton). Different league (Championship). So I'm not sure why the no. of points is being seen as harsh?

[@Bizarro69]

People are ignorant.

[@mike65730]

Argument is that comparing championship team and a premier league team, the same amount of money is far more valuable and buys you much more in championchip than the premier league. Also the actual amount is disputed, as for instance the interest on the stadium loans used to be a write off and they just changed the rules out of the blue and decided it now does count. Atleast that's the rumour.

[@philhere246]

He forgot to mention Everton unexpectedly lost the Usmanov/USM sponsorship money, which was reportedly IN EXCESS of the £19 in the charge. Unbelievable.

[@terrygavin5168]

What's 19 quid though lol

[@danieljamesmead]

If Man City are as innocent as they say why are they delaying the process so much? Surely you'd want to clear your name asap.

[@rajeevpalthukral764]

What name ?

[@russellward4624]

That's a lie. Trials take time. Nobody knows what's actually going on because there's a gag order.

[@PieJesu244]

Lawyers...that's the reason

[@PieJesu244]

​@@rajeevpalthukral764Treble winning Champions of Europe. That name.

[@rajeevpalthukral764]

@@PieJesu244 done it very recently , that's why the novelty , don't you worry, 115 sins are soon gonna catch up , and people will be asking , who, those fucking cheats ?

[@Saharadesertdragon]

Love how Shearer and Lineker dodged answering the question about clubs players who have been robbed of titles due to Man City cheating

[@CityFan_]

Because they haven’t! Relegate us fine but those title our ours!

[@marvinmoeller3170]

If Liverpool could have the depth of City they surley had two league titles more, but its Impossible to have Citys squad without finicial cheating

[@johnmichaelson9173]

If City had stuck to the rules they wouldn't have won those titles. It's only fair to remove the title's from City.

[@Saharadesertdragon]

@@CityFan_ if you cheat to have the finances to buy the players to get those titles then no they're not yours because you cheated but then I don't think they should be awarded to anyone else but left void for those year's in question same for all domestic cups

[@bazhughes5625]

@@CityFan_ If you get caught stealing diamonds, you don't get to keep the diamonds.

[@albertbrammer9263]

As Man City are not working with the Prem. why are they not excluded for next season?

[@scottturner2902]

they should be kicked out of the leauge like they did to Rangers.

[@thomasjames7644]

Very good point.

[@pauladamson8684]

Because innocent until proven guilty. Jesus!!!

[@MrTobex21]

This podcast should be number one trending. Amazing contents!

[@lukefegan9609]

Love these videos guys keep up the good work

[@gaylemaree]

Lots of love in the comments section for the quality of guests and content - as it should be. Congratulations on a consistently outstanding podcast. (Serious, silly, funny, reflective and informative.... the full package)

[@deppyboi]

Back to back brilliant guests. Well played, Gary.

[@DWArch]

If City are guilty of the charges then they should be relegated. This would be a similar punishment that was meted out to Juventus for their previous misdemeanours. City would likely bounce back but it is important that there are serious repercussions for cheating.

[@richieudoh2357]

Different charges.. one was paying refs not financial doping

[@DWArch]

@@richieudoh2357 Noted, but both are forms of cheating. If City can sign better players and create a bigger squad to mount a title challenge due to breaking the financial rules then they are gaining a competitive advantage over the other teams. I am a Blackburn fan so I am not a fan of the FFP rules as they are, we wouldn't have been able to win the league if they were in place. They are in place now and Man City may have broken the rules. I believe owners should be able to spend more as long as it is there own cash and no additional financial liability is placed on the clubs.

[@RankinMsP]

@@richieudoh2357 details.. It's the impact of the cheating that matters. City are blatantly cheating and knowingly obfuscating and the PL don't want to upset their billionaire owners The whole thing is a farce and pretending it isn't isn't ok. If we had a less corrupt govt, the PL and therefore City) would have been kicked into doing more by now.

[@MrsRhianne1996]

Completley different charges to Juventus.

[@briancohenthepfjmassive.4769]

If Everton got a 10 point's deduction. Surely city get what rangers got in Scotland. Bottom division for me

[@anoopkallideen]

Beautifully explained. Great job. Regards

[@OfficialFingazMC]

If man city don't get some sort of punishment then there is something seriously dodgy going on!

[@neilbennett7892]

its money

[@mediacenterman8583]

You've only just realized this??

[@russellward4624]

They have no evidence.

[@OfficialFingazMC]

@@mediacenterman8583 Didn't say that did I...

[@jasonstatham6886]

So they are already guilty in your head?

[@NickDusting]

A brilliant discussion. The one thing that wasn't touched on was one of the root causes: the price of players. Is it possible to regulate spending on players? Probably not... but that's what's driving these issues - spending enormous amounts without the financial base to pay for them.

[@lilbaz8732]

It's down to the clubs to regulate their spending. If they don't they get points deducted.

[@MitchelGant]

Agreed. They should just scrap transfer fee's. But players would have to honour their contracts until they became free agents.

[@damedusa5107]

@@MitchelGanthow would that work? Simply wouldn’t

[@jonathanmonck-mason6715]

Of course the price of buying transfer players comes into it, but also the wages paid to players. You can't simply allow the wealthiest club to buy the 20 best players in the world and pay them massive wages and huge bonuses for winning trophies, because the owners can afford to run the club at a loss.

[@STST]

FFP was brought in to help stop clubs going under. But if you don't follow FFP the punishment is a points deduction or possible relegation which ultimately could lead to the club going under. Doesn't make sense really does it 😕

[@GetOnTheFloor82]

This is a superb chat. Brilliant. Well done guys. That us top class. And things just explained in plain English. Straight to the point 👉

[@williamhargrave9202]

Very interesting, great to have people explain the position clubs can find themselves in.😎

[@mrakronyahoo]

Alan Shearer is right. Everton's punishment is very harsh especially considering the slap on the wrist for those trying to start a breakaway superleague. Something very dodgy about the people running the premier league.

[@sundersquare]

it's not harsh if that's how they want to punish the rules being broken. if they come out and say man city get a 10 point deduction, then it's very harsh on Everton. without something to compare, we don't know if its harsh or lenient. they need to be firm on these punishments to have any hope in making the sport fair

[@rajeevpalthukral764]

Trying to start is not the same as starting a rival league

[@mediacenterman8583]

Its not harsh. They should count themselves lucky because even with a 10 point deduction they will still stay up.

[@neilt1889]

They should have kicked the breakaway clubs out of the leagues and not let them play in the Champions league etc etc but money talks

[@boldrkevin]

10 points for Everton, could have gone to Administration for 9 points… shocking

[@davids3539]

Why do you need to charge Man City all in one go? Charge them case by case.

[@paulgoodwin2224]

It’s actually 5 charges multiplied over several seasons. If the 5 fail the whole thing will fall apart. People are just getting giddy over 115.

[@georgeyboy5256]

It's actually only 5 breaches across multiple seasons. Too many people lose sight of that parroting 115. 1 of the breaches that relates to 30 charges will have no sporting sanction either as non cooperation isn't deemed a sporting benefit.

[@adegokeayanfe1066]

@@paulgoodwin2224I like your approach cos it is even heavier, so if they are found guilty of one it cuts across multiple seasons:)

[@davids3539]

@@paulgoodwin2224 The charges can be grouped into 5 categories, or 10 years, or about 30 rules, but that doesn't mean if one fails from a group then the whole group fails. If they are not guilty of making a dodgy extra payment to a manager in 2009 to avoid him being tempted elsewhere, that doesn't mean they didn't do it in 2012, and certainly doesn't mean they didn't make a dodgy payment to a player in 2016. That's despite those charges being put in the same category of under the table payments.

[@Pistolero891]

Thanks for having Nick on. Very knowledgeable

[@ceironjones7669]

Astounding bit content here lads, nice to finally hear the ins and outs.

[@70tezskin]

The beautiful game. How have we got to this .. Firstly, it was Var which has totally ruined the game and will continue to do so with not one person knowing anything anymore about the rules of football. We do not talk about how good the football is we talk about Var. Now this.A can of worms. ..This 10 points, Everton will overcome that .But the fallout will be devastating . Premier league Clubs suing each other .Massive trouble between fans .. Man city .Chelsea ..where do you go .relegation back to division 2. Their punishment must fall in line with Evertons 1 breach 10points ..Man city 115 breaches. Should Man city escape any less than relegation down the leagues it will show how toxic and rotten the Premier league has become.. Unfortunately this will only get worse for all the Premier Ieague teams internally fighting with each other .. This is a sad time for football who ever you support because this involves every team ..

[@CANOES-in3do]

I'm not a Everton fan, but if the prem say don't spend or you will break rules, but I'm sure hasn't the prem got to do the paperwork for tranfers to sanction the transfer, so why didn't prem say no, just putting it out there

[@user-tu1bi9wl3e]

Because they don’t babysit …

[@severnsea]

It's not that simple though is it, it's not just about the transfer fees and salaries, there are countless other expenses to take into account when running a business. I'm not sure what periods were involved in the Everton case, but their income would have been unexpectedly negatively impacted first by covid, then by the huge rise in costs, especially energy prices, which would have had an ongoing impact on their finances. I do wonder how much of that was taken into account.

[@LloydBrodrick-ne5ei]

Because the spend was not on players. Everton have made Net profits on player sales and purchases over the last 5 years. They did not overspend on players and gained no sporting advantage.

[@hunsler1006]

No one's saying they shouldn't be punished. They're saying going 20 mill over in a 3 year period which includes COVID, building a new stadium (which the financial write off system changed after the building commenced) and their biggest investor being embargoed (loss of £200 mill). And Openly admitting to the breach and working with the prem for a couple of years (including selling players they didn't want to for less then they wanted). 10 points seems excessive. Especially considering going into administration only gets you 9 points

[@kevinballard4797]

You hit the nail on the head here pal.

[@ianhome5846]

Your missing the main point they knew they were in trouble and spoke with the PL and agreed what to do to avoid it but then did not follow that process and failed the rules they took a chance that failed

[@alanx216]

So at the start of the show they state that the rules are in place to protect clubs... however, a team loses money over a period of time then are deducted points which could result in them being relegated which WILL result in them losing A LOT more money. How is this protecting anyone?

[@MrSchwabentier]

so what else would you like as a punishment?

[@alanx216]

@MrSchwabentier maybe a transfer ban? Idk just anything thar doesn't assist the club to go into administration and bankruptcy

[@samviegas6616]

It is on the PL to prove the "115" charges on City. The burden of proof is on the accusers/prosecutors, not on City who's being accused.

[@Samuel-cr9mc]

Lawyers know that. Charges are burden to those that accused. Apart from that this delay would cost PL a lot.

[@Pr3stag3]

It doesn't look on City with them pulling out all the stops to get this delayed year after year and they haven't shown any of this irrefutable evidence to clear their names that they keep claiming they have.

[@DoyleArmstrong41]

Uefa already found citeh guilty on some of charges so no way they are clearing all 115 charges

[@gratefulkm]

Its a sport. The burden is on the people taking part in the sport to play honestly, If the players are not attempting to be honest then its not longer a sport, its a now a tyranny

[@dstewusa7054]

💯 % Correct Sir People are losing sight of this

[@SqueakyWeasel247]

Great interview guys. Strange that they didn't hold off the points deduction for Everton until they went through the inevitable appeals process. I bet Chelsea are begging they get docked ten points this season too 🤭

[@chicocannon]

How can you go through an appeal unless they found them guilty and imposed the punishment

[@SqueakyWeasel247]

@@chicocannon If I get fined £Xm in a court a guarantee is signed BUT the money is not paid until after the appeals process is heard and adjudicated because the amount may be reduced (or even added to). I personally think the appeal will come to nothing but the PL should not have deducted the points until after any appeal is heard and considered to avoid skewing the table unnecessarily. A good example is that if a player gets carded which may lead to a potential ban and he appeals it he is free to play in a "big game" at the weekend if the appeal is scheduled to be heard the following week but if the appeal is found frivolous he may find his ban is extended.

[@chrismiller6317]

Thanks for that podcast lads brilliant,now I have listened to the very well explained reason I now have a better understanding of it,before Nick had explained it all it was about as clear as mud 👍👍👏👏💥💥

[@absolutelynotno]

Excellent guest, well in Nick. Thanks gents. UTT

[@lancsladgaming7146]

awesome video, makes all the facts clear. Great job.

[@AndreasNV]

I quite fancy Manchester City in the North West Counties League if they can keep some of their key players.

[@johnmft]

Plymouth Argyle were nearly liquidated over 13million of debt when they were in the Championship...

[@IanInChengdu]

David Phillips KC, who is a member of the FA judicial panel but also the FA Premier League Panel. Independent?

[@PBellAU]

I would love to see FFP regulation based on the US NFL draft model, whereby teams finishing lower get some leg up over the teams that finished higher the next season. Not sure how this would work in a league that has relegation, I'll leave that to someone more intelligent than myself. But something needs to be done to allow smaller teams to catch up spending wise to the big teams, sustainably of course. But I doubt this will ever happen, the Premier League know the 'Big 6' are what draw in the revenue so they're never going to introduce something that will put a risk to that.

[@brynsuperblue52]

the league knew what Everton were spending on players and signed off on it?

[@LloydBrodrick-ne5ei]

The overspend was not really spending on players… more stadium. They could have cut costs by laying off staff during Covid but did the right thing and paid. They had a 40m player suspended by the FA whilst the police took an age to bring no charges, that asset went out of contract during the period and went on a free.

[@brynsuperblue52]

absolutely @@LloydBrodrick-ne5ei

[@trecking]

How is it independent of the premiere league when it was the prem League who picked the members or at least 2 members of the committee??? Also having a committee member who has a huge benefit if Everton where found guilty?? The Leeds lawyer who has a huge financial interest due to Leeds now apparently going to sue Everton for compensation for being relegated....

[@katiebrand8450]

Probably the best explanation I’ve seen on this situation, thank you 🙂

[@pinkfloyd870]

and it is BS

[@PaulShutts.]

But he hasn't explained it correctly.

[@user-mk4nq7ez9e]

Top podcast, really enjoyed listening to someone with an actual insight and knowledge about the situation, it’s what everyone needs. Top broadcasters should look at getting these people to speak more. It would help clarify things that are maybe said amongst football conversations in every day lives and he explained things really well and thoroughly as well as being easy to understand. Listen to all the pods and always enjoy them. I’ve got no ‘clout’ but would love to come on and chat football, be a dream come true🤣

[@88chachacha]

It’s funny that you think he knows what he is talking about. He said Everton were warned and kept spending on players. This is nonsense. Everton were on special measures with the PL meaning the PL had to sign off on all of their transfers, Everton barely spent any money.. Lampard spent a net of 13million.

[@severnsea3924]

Um....both the Everton and Man City stories have been done to death, all the information that is known about them has been out in the open and published time and time again on social media. He hasn't come up with anything factual that we didn't already know. Anything else he's just added for effect, like the way he "talks" to the panel like he was part of the actual debate on the day.

[@wrightp79]

I love the way he believes the panel was completely independent. If you look at the panel and who their previous employers were, it's far from independent. The issue is not Evertons guilt, as they admitted it. They even went to the Premier League with their case. The issue is the disproportionate penalty.

[@ernigolli9981]

The appeal will reduce it imo. I think they are trying to show there will be severe punishments for any breaches in regulation but i think Everton will get less points deducted.

[@lilbaz8732]

Previous employer isn't current employer.

[@sirchristof2443]

It's not impartial

[@sirchristof2443]

Those other clubs are not building a new stadium during a pandemic and having funds impacted by a war are they???

[@TheGiantKillers]

The penalty looks harsh but when you look at the rules of these. If found in breach, you get six points off plus a point for every 5 million over. Therefore 10 points. It's been suggested that it will be reduced, but I suspect it won't. As has been explained here, Everton were told, do certain things and you won't be penalised. Everton knowingly ignored this advice. However, while I don't think they'll get a reduction on appeal, I do think the Premier League will probably back Everton in any case where Leicester, Burnley etc try to claim compensation. I also think Everton will easily avoid relegation and administration but no penalties will ever be brought against Manchester City and Chelsea. They have the power to break the Premier League and create a Super League, ironically just as Everton themselves were the power behind the break from the Football League back at the turn of the 90s.

[@paulmousley2634]

The same independent commission that handed Everton a top-flight record points deduction last week will also decide whether the clubs relegated over the past couple of seasons can claim compensation for lost revenue as a result of the Blues' overspending. The panel, made up of David Phillips KC, chartered accountant and former West Ham Finance Director Nick Igoe, and judge Alan Greenwood, recommended to the Premier League that Everton be docked 10 points for breaching Profitabiity and Sustainability rules. Now, they will be the ones overseeing the case for damages from the likes of Leeds United, whom Phillips counts as a former client, Leicester City, Nottingham Forest, Southampton and Burnley who could claim to have either gone down to the Championship or lost revenue as a result of Everton's actions. In a ruling in May that could foreshadow the commission's second decision, Phillips, who sat on a panel that recommended that Everton be fined £300,000 for the pitch invasions following the win over Crystal Palace in May 2022, indicated that he felt clubs would have grounds for compensation. Pah !

[@yozzsongs]

Pair of biased *****

[@robertmorley3609]

If, as I expect, Everton stay up, they will say "Well, we dodged that one!" So what is the real punishment?

[@holytrinity955]

The loss of prize money for finishing lower in the table.

[@mediacenterman8583]

Thank you for saying this. Everton will be laughing their bollocks of because that ten point deduction will not be enough to relegate them. They will 100% think, we got away with it lads and are still in the EPL. Phew

[@pinkfloyd870]

Sounds profitable to be dishonest, and unfair. Fully supported by the league, depending on who you are. absolutely no punishment.@@holytrinity955

[@billywoodward584]

I'm afraid Chelsea will be under the microscope even more now, the Club under the new owner has supposedly spent nearly a billion pound, and the previous owner seam to spend a fortune ever time the manager was sacked. And in the end its the supporters who feel let down by the owners and the league, we pay a small fortune out season after season as customers, and the league and most owners think of it as just another business.

[@lilbaz8732]

Msybe fans should stop demanding their owners spend money on shiny new players. Demand instead they use more from their scademies.

[@deanc6664]

@@lilbaz8732 Or discovering new talent rather than only buying stars who are 'worthy' and 'proven' at inflated prices that most of the time, turn out to be flops because they don't live up to the price tag.

[@geordievillan]

Whatever deands the fans make, at almost any club, is utterly irrelevant to the ownerships - who are majorly involved to make money.@@lilbaz8732

[@timmills8521]

Chelsea's academy is one of the most productive systems in world football, the club has raised half a billion in sales in the recent few years whilst still currently having more academy players in the squad than any other topflight club.

[@sundersquare]

10 points deducted off 1 season is nothing in the grand scheme of things. whats to stop a club abusing the system (man city perhaps?) over multiple years and winning multiple titles. who care is they get points deducted for one season, they've already won all the trophies and will probably win more over the following years. its just madness

[@aotea6983]

Exactly, it would be meaningless. They would need to go to jiventus route or rangers route and have them relegated a couple of divisions. Though even then they would be back within a couple of seasons. Biggest thing is the premier league to act much much faster than they have done with city

[@iangraham5601]

​no guarantee they would return instantly. Players will leave, so would be huge recruitment but again could be imposed transfer embargoes etc

[@wandarah]

Well presumably they'd lose the titles also.

[@united6997]

Strip them of titles and relegation? Think that would be a statement

[@jonathanmonck-mason6715]

The problem is that the punishments are supposed to act as a deterrent, but if the clubs decide to break the rules anyway and they get punished nobody really benefits.

[@L.Drizzle]

Is there a reason the term "he or she" is being used when talking about the independent regulator? Has it been formerly confirmed that it will just be one person? Feels a bit odd to me, I assumed the regulator would be a full organisation much like the likes of Ofgem, Ofwat, and Ofcom.

[@thomash6497]

The authorities should be allowed to go after a team like city on the simplest single charge separately while the more complex issues are further investigated. Allowing them to cynically use shenanigans to delay things is appalling.

[@akamiguelsanchez9985]

If this is the precedent, then City will be playing in the Northern League

[@jeremywilliams5107]

Marine 1 : Man City 0.

[@christophergarrard5210]

You are assuming that City will be found guilty of all charges and each charge carrying points deduction.

[@sparking2016]

"More baffling still is the fact that the panel appears to have been led by David Phillips KC, who is not only a member of the FA judicial panel but also the FA Premier League Panel. On that basis, one might wonder how he could be regarded as independent at all in this matter. Furthermore, he represented Leeds United, “at every stage of the matter”, in their battle against a 15-point penalty, also in 2005-06, for failing to exit administration in a proper manner. And in May this year, in a separate ruling ahead of the Independent Commission into Everton’s alleged wrongdoing, Mr Phillips decided that were the club found guilty, the Commission could award Burnley, Leicester City, Southampton, Nottingham Forest and his former client, Leeds United, compensation. Or that, at the very least, those clubs could be entitled to seek such damages."

[@mikemoran7416]

Love it spot on independent my Arse

[@efcdk92]

Very suspect members on that panel

[@richardhindley4459]

Some of the analysis on Everton is inaccurate. Everton DIDN'T just "keep on spending" as he wrongly stated. EVERY signing had to be approved, and EVERY signing was funded by player sales. The Premier League has been disingenuous to put it mildly.

[@Youaintseenmeright.......]

Football hasn't been a legitimate sport for a while now. It's a television show first and foremost and the amount of money involved means there is no way that it's not fixed towards those with the most money.

[@tomstretton2627]

If City are found guilty which let’s be honest, from what’s been published they should be. Then titles need to be stripped. Then relegation down the leagues like what happened to Juve or Rangers.

[@biggiemal]

I think stripping of titles and demotion is the only thing that would hurt them. A monetary fine is ridiculous for an entity with near unlimited money. Even if they drop a league, they basically skip a year while dining out on everything they've won that was built on deceit, lies and corruption. Even now, their main sponsorships are all connected to the ownership in one way or another...The only club in the world to turn a profit during the pandemic? Hmm, seems legit.

[@PedroPorridge]

Why are the non cooperating ManShifty 115+ not charged yet?

[@neilharrison01]

What is the name of the cat that enters from the right at 3:04?

[@raydearie9805]

Once again the lads coming up with informing us regular fans on the rules and how these situations arise in football Many Thanks Gary, Nick and Alan

[@CarlOrlando]

The fella is talking chaf. Have a read instead

[@H.E.Pennypacker123]

He kept saying Everton still went ahead and spent money on players , they had a net spend for the past 3 seasons of around zero , so of course they spent money on players ,to replace the ones they were forced to sell to try and balance the books otherwise they would be full of under 21's

[@ewan6752]

You need to remember about wages too, just the transfer spending being zero isn't all of the story. Also you are allowed to spend less that you make in sales, look at Brighton the last few seasons.

[@johnjordan9565]

I’m assuming these rules are strictly enforced could this bring an end to what most supporters see as obscenely high wages for players. 🤷

[@andyisabeast7782]

One thing I really don't understand about the city charges... If there are so many charges to go through why not just hire more people

[@deadpool8340]

Corruption at its finest 1 charge 10 points 115 charges we will just see how long we can drag it out !!

[@severnsea]

Absolutely they should drag it out. I know I would be, given that everybody has already decided they're guilty despite having absolutely no evidence whatsoever.

[@CagedPaps]

Nothing wrong with 100 smokes and Irn-Bru!

[@AriesAdams-rb5lh]

😂 😂

[@ShinnaDEW]

Great show! Thanks for having a differnt POV on the matter. And a guest with high knowledge on the topic.

[@stevev238]

Swindon were relegated for about 3% of the charges City are facing. If guilty, they should be relegated to East Lancs division 7

[@AM2K2]

Micah not around to defend the 115 charges? 🤣

[@menzincube4854]

when you find out that they were given a chance and instructions on what to do

[@bornin1948]

Does revenue from issuing shares to owners count in applying FFP ?

[@Prodigy_Fan]

It would have been nice if panel had discussed the hopeless Everton board that led us into this huge mess. A board us fans had been protesting against for a long time.

[@kumz14]

This is great news! We need rule and City and Chelsea need to pay the price

[@georgeyboy5256]

*If they've done anything wrong right? No evidence has been presented on either case yet, so surely we're not saying guilty before trial. That's not how the English system works.

[@severnsea3924]

@@georgeyboy5256 The entire lot of them are a bunch of hypocrites. They claim to care about the integrity of the league and say it needs cleaning up etc. so the best possible result would be that City, Chelsea or whoever prove their case and are therefore proven to be not guilty. But not one of them wants that, they all WANT them to be found guilty so they have another reason to slag them off. They couldn't care less about the league or any other club but their own.

[@MegaTimtheman]

Lets be completely real here ffp wasnt installed to keep clubs financially stable. It was to keep the rich and powerful clubs at the top as other teams couldn't spend their way up the league

[@lilbaz8732]

Must be why the efl introduced their own rules. And every league in europe.

[@NikosLosBabos1]

Complete nonsense. It was brought in for the exact opposite of what you're saying. If there was no such thing as FFP, the richest clubs would be able to buy every player in the league and just sit them in the reserves, preventing other clubs they consider a threat from signing them. If FFP wasn't a thing it'd turn Leicester's title win from a massive improbability to a complete impossibility. The teams towards the bottom end of the league wouldn't be able to lay a glove on the teams at the top if these clubs could just spend with complete impunity, so stop spouting complete nonsense

[@Sandhoeflyerhome]

Nice to hear a ‘brighter’ speaker elaborate the problem.

[@jamesli9380]

One thing I've noticed about teams who get points deducted is that historically the team really responds on the pitch. Everton will be galvanised with the probable injustice of the whole thing and I fully expect them to stay up. If the Premier League actually get their act together before the end of the season we could end up seeing City, Chelsea and Sheffield United as this season's relegated teams!

[@burningsoul1365]

dont be a muppet sheff utd are and will stay up.

[@severnsea3924]

That's why the whole thing is just a complete farce. The best thing that could happen for the league is for Chelsea and City to prove they are innocent, after all it's the so-called cheating you're all bleating about so if you care about the league that's what you would want right? But none of you give a toss about that, all you want is to see them go down to leave your club free to challenge at the top and potentially win it. You wouldn't care a jot if it was proven that those teams were innocent and all was well.

[@patrickporter1864]

Minimum of 1150 points deducted. In a season your relegated. City in the championship could boost gates for the clubs there. If they won all there games in the championship they would get 138 points still relegated to league one and probably league two if its cumulative until they work it off. Relegation has, to bethe punishment here plus points deducted.

[@garybriers690]

should Man City be suspended pending investigation? this saga is going on far too long, if found guilty they should be stripped of every trophy won since, so why are we allowing them to add to the tally????????????????????????

[@GermanChickenwing]

Will you like to go to jail without being found guilty first? If yes then fair enough

[@garybriers690]

@@GermanChickenwing you still get a custodial sentence until trial

[@GermanChickenwing]

@@garybriers690 Sorry not when someone accused you of a crime

[@pauladamson8684]

A lot Man City hate here

[@PieJesu244]

Gary (ex Everton player) unbiased views on City and Everton

[@ajhakraHD]

The fact that United aren't even remotely being looked at is suspicious in itself. Long time with no trophy money and outspending City most seasons... But, gotta keep the establishment happy...

[@madmark1957]

Individuals and companies who are accused of things often delay proceedings as long as they can, it generally seems to be considered a viable strategy. I imagine any club who had the financial capability to do so would do the same thing under similar circumstances. I expect the reasoning is that as time goes past things may change. It's a difficult and complex case but also one with potentially disastrous repercussions to both sides. Man City may be torn apart by it but so also might the FA. I would strongly suspect that there are other clubs whose adherence to financial rules would not bear close scrutiny.

[@Lionfish-Hunting]

I can understand Leicester suing Everton as a straight swap between 17th and 18th place. But how do Leeds (19th) think they have a case as well? There is only Everton. And as for Southampton (20th) what case do they think they have?

[@russellward4624]

Leicester failed ffp themselves.

[@pixlhound]

presumably, they feel that without cheating ffp rules, they would have beaten Everton home and away? 6 points might have made a difference, assuming they lost to Everton both games, as it would have effectively been worth a 12 point swing between the 2 clubs

[@alexashworth6618]

@@pixlhoundSouthampton beat Everton and were still 11 points off

[@pixlhound]

@@alexashworth6618 fair enough, I'm not all that familiar with where teams were.

[@creativecandyco]

Plus being deducted 10pts will inevitably mean a financial hit due to league position come end of the season anyway. One more thing, Please stop going on about this will galvanise the Fans, the team and the manager. We don't need a 10pt deduction to galvanise us, our recent form was enough to do that, That is just something you all want to watch and rub your hands together for, like the gladiatorial atmosphere produced in the amphitheatre that was the colosseum in Rome.

[@jimmyjohnson45]

spot on

[@Dpav3]

What a great conversation that was, top chat and Nick was great to listen to with his insights. Keep it up guys

[@gregorybrandenburger9457]

Its really great that an entire club, to include all staff, players, rank and file employees, get caught up in decisions made at an executive level.

[@lilbaz8732]

Same as every business.

[@christophergarrard5210]

Always been the case and will always be the same, no different than anyone else in any other job.

[@CB-ms2cq]

The bigger question to ask is who is working to monitor this. There’s zero evidence from the FA besides a hacker that published this. And all this happened in 2011.

[@creativecandyco]

Firstly, the independent commission deamed that Everton did not gain any sporting advantage and have been punished due to matters concerning P&S for interest payments on the new stadium. Then decreed that only a sporting punishment would suffice. Secondly, The then left it open for other Clubs within a 28 day period to decide whether or not to sue Everton (on sporting grounds I assume) Thus possibly sending Everton into Administration, which I believe is the exact reason that P&S regulations were set up to protect against. It's a farce and we all know it.

[@lilbaz8732]

No they didn't say everton didn't get a sporting advantage. This what was said. “At one level, disregard of the potential PSR [profit and sustainability rules] difficulties can be said to increase Everton’s culpability. But the commission considers that there is a danger of double counting. We have already made clear that our approach is to start by considering the extent by which the PSR threshold has been exceeded: the greater the excess, the greater the culpability. We do not consider that the reasons for the PSR breach should aggravate that culpability unless they can be said to constitute exceptional conduct. For example, a deliberate cynical breach of the PSR to achieve a sporting advantage might increase culpability beyond that already arrived at by the extent of the breach.”

[@Moinul987]

I know everyone loves Micah, but I enjoy these podcasts more, just because it's more professional, though maybe I'm just more boring

[@peterbushell9683]

Guys whens the Merch coming out Mugs T shirts etc come on im in need of a new work mug Keep up the work guys the best pod around by miles 👏👏👏

[@Tom-771]

You said these rules are to protect clubs from bankruptcy, why do I feel that this ruling pushes Everton towards that. Also , the breakaway clubs proposing a Super League that would have decimated the Premiership were only fined a nominal sum, "Because the Premier League didn't want to penalise theirfans!" What about penalising Everton's fans with this ruling?

[@PASSION4GAMIN]

I'm gutted with the points deduction, but this will drive us back on track and to stay in the premier league. ⚽

[@Rico_nufc]

Nah ya going down la

[@arnoldsaunders6073]

Everton will have no relegation problem this season.

[@Rico_nufc]

@@arnoldsaunders6073 wey aye we will see

[@Andy-we5og]

It will be tight but You'll stay up Point deductions mid season are unfair, should of been at the start of next season

[@lilbaz8732]

Yep take the punishment start fresh next season.

[@fatwallet13]

The KC has connections to Leeds funny enough one of the teams now wanting to sue Everton 🤔one of the panel had something to do with West Ham over the Tevez debacle. Also Masters openly leaks before the commission to new media that Everton should get a 12 point deduction. We all know this is politically motivated by the premier league because the don't want an independent authority overseeing them (they want to mark their own homework) & we all know why! the player Sigurdsson issue was valid a player costing £48M who the premier league suspended from playing & Everton sacked. Everton could have chose to sue him for the £10 to £15M they could have got in transfer fee but decided not to sue on grounds of player health & mental health concerns. In a time were people are saying footballers are human beings & we must show some compassion & empathy, Everton do that & are penalised by the commission for doing so. Had Everton sued Sigurdsson (who by the way like most premier league players is a multi millionaire) they would have had additional £10-£15M to deduct of the £19.5M over spend. This whole case is gotten to the core & football will be the biggest loser from this.

[@TwitchingBomb]

Also if Everton had a bank loan for the stadium rather than lending from within then would have cleared the PSR. Punished for building a stadium in a pandemic and war and opening up law suits to prevent overspending.. Joke on Everton. If we tried to ruin the football pyramid then Everton get a self imposed £3 fine. Premier league scoring an own goal giving out the harshest punishment in it's history over what the panel said was by accident whist being open and transparent with the PL

[@fatwallet13]

Spot on whatever happens we'll be behind the team 100%, you know what they say if it don't kill you it makes you stronger! 💙💥COYB@@TwitchingBomb

[@gursharnharvey3282]

Was any leeway given to clubs for Covid. If Everton just sold one player for 20m would they be cleared of charges?

[@ibp2007]

So if MC are found guilty of all 115 charges will they have points deducted pro rata with Everton. 1150? Which would take many years and divisions to pay the points. Why must it always be punish and never help.

[@seanpeckett8939]

Let's be honest unless there is an independent regulatory body for the Premier League then the corruption will continue and Everton will be the only club to have this punishment given.

[@ekwejohnson6965]

No Man city will be charged.

[@paulfitzgerald9413]

Bottom-line is Everton were working on a daily basis with the Premier league for several years on all transfers in and out of the club to ensure compliance. They were £19.5 M ( read that again £19.5M) over the allowed 3 year FFP amount whilst building an £800M, 55,000 seater state-of-the-art stadium through Covid to replace 130 year old Goodison Park. In addition they have a £200M stadium naming rights deal with USM (Usmanov) which was then pulled due to the Ukraine Russia conflict and UK Government sanctions. If the Premier League think Everton is some small club that they can pull apart unlike City and Chelsea then they are going to be in for a big shock...this is only the beginning of the Premier League being dismantled by UK Government.

[@BlairParker88]

Why so bitter

[@TwitchingBomb]

@@BlairParker88 Don't you like reading facts or is it that you just don't understand them?

[@BlairParker88]

@@TwitchingBomb bottom line is they fucked up and are now facing the consequences. Pretty simple.

[@Klinsmann1985]

How can more than one relegated club claim? Surely if Everton went down only one would have stayed up?

[@thomash6497]

All relegated clubs played City twice in their relegation season during the period City are being investigated for. They all lost up to six points in their relegation seasons to a team that may be found guilty of financial doping. Surely they will all consider being part of litigation seeking compensation going forward.

[@sparking2016]

Everton could only have been relegated once. Which means they only prevented one team from staying up not 3. I don’t see how it’s fair to be punished 2 or even 4 times for one offence. Having said that I've got more sympathy with the teams wanting compensation than I have for the 10 points deduction. Everton have (i think) legitimate greviance of the undervaluation of Richarlison who they had to sell to satisfy the PL & over player X whose loss of value to the club was not allowed to be written off against the other figures. Also loss of ground spnsorship due to the sponsor being chums with Putin. -There's your 20m Back between those 3 issues alone -(Arguably). -Not an excuse of course but i can't see how not mitigation against the level of punishment/s

[@kippaxstreeter]

£19m is nothing in terms of the Premier League 10pts us a joke. Utd got a £275k fine when they broke them and as a club were £800k in debt??? JOKE

[@CharlesDarkson]

​@@kippaxstreeter Man Utd's fine was due to them making what was essentially an admin error caused by Uefa changing the rules regarding losses caused by Covid. Barcelona, Istanbul & Anderlecht also made similar errors and got fined as well. Everton kept taking liberties despite being under special measures, and basically being under a 'one in, one out' transfer policy from the Premier League. It's not a fair comparison, when it's not even the same governing bodies involved.

[@sparking2016]

@@CharlesDarkson Few have been more critical of the scale of the incompetence with which the club has been run than Everton fans. The fact that the club soiled itself & invited the Prem league to watch defies belief. BUT..In the shadow of the Super league punishments & the "fans shouldn't be punished" principal that was applied to the big 6, it's the nature of the punishment/s (and their late introduction) that is being argued over not the principle of it.

[@monkeybone39]

Yes but which team?

[@sparking2016]

@@monkeybone39 That's the issue. Who calls it.