BLUEGRASS is a Good School for ANY Music

[@HayesGriffin]

Thanks for having me on the channel Andy! I learn something every time I talk to you bro.

[@isaacbeen2087]

How about the "pattern" of blue thirds? I don't see a meaningful difference between what we call a "rule" in music and a pattern, only that a rule is a pattern that should be applied repeatedly in order to work it into one's habits of improvisation or composition.

[@mandohat]

Likewise, HG!

[@davestagner]

Pentatonic with an extra note is a hexatonic scale, which makes me think of another important unnamed bluegrass scale. I got it from a Darol Anger video… he called it the “fiddle tune scale”, and it’s different when ascending vs descending. When ascending, it’s a major scale with no fourth; when descending, it’s a major scale with no seventh. It pops up in all sorts of fiddle tunes! A good place to notice it is the last two bars of the A section of Salt Creek. The pickup to the last two bars descends 5-4-3, then ascends 3-5-6-7-1, then descends 1-6-5-4-3-1-1, skipping the fourth on the way up and the seventh on the way down. More broadly, hexatonic and octatonic scales are REALLY important because they get scalar octave runs to line up musically with the bar lines. Play a diatonic scale (major or minor) in eighth notes, from the downbeat of one bar to the downbeat of the next bar. You don’t land on the octave - you land on the second, a sad and despondent place (unless you’re changing to the V chord!). So this unnamed scale you’re talking about is an example of that - adding a minor third spices it up AND makes it an octatonic scale that lines up nicely with the beat for scalar runs! I first encountered this scale a zillion years ago when taking jazz theory lessons. My teacher called it the “bebop scale”.

[@lordofthemound3890]

In re Anger’s scale: yeah, I’ve been doing that for years playing fiddle tunes without even ever thinking about it. Probably has to do with the usual avoidance of the 4th in the I chord, but when descending to root, it gives you a V7 to I resolved feel going from the 4th down to root.

[@davestagner]

@ Once I started thinking about scales in terms of a: circle-of-fifths movement, and b: rhythmic line up of chord tones with strong beats, sounding musical came much more easily. I had good reasons for playing the notes I play, not just “This is the next note in the scale, so I’m gonna play it whether or not it makes sense”. Brain is still on autopilot, just a better autopilot. :) Beyond that, another marvelous lesson for me came from a workshop with drummer Steve Smith (Journey) about what he calls the “American Beat”, which underlies bluegrass as well as just about every other form of distinctly American music. The American Beat is characterized by two things: a heavy backbeat, and swinging anticipation notes before the downbeat. Those anticipation notes (the “da” in ding ding dading ding) should get circle-of-fifths dominant chord tones toward a chord tone in the downbeat - this drives the melody with a strong sense of direction. Dig into this concept and the fiddle tune scale makes sense!

[@JosephusDalrymple]

This is the lesson the world needed. It’s genius!

[@TypingHazard]

I might have said Steely Dan's "My Old School" though it's really just a hint at the G-run I might be turning into a hammer seeking nails in my, uh, old age? (Is 43 old? (Yes. Yes it is)) but I have a hot take that this isn't a "scale" so much as a combination of a scale and an understood rule about making good lines I do this a lot but I shall reference that open secret of an internet jazz teacher, the late Barry Harris - he teaches maybe 3 recognizable scales for improvisation - major, natural minor, and dominant/mixolydian/whatever you wanna call a major scale with a b7 - but then he adds the half-step rules on top so that you have a way to emphasize chord tones on downbeats. Some of these rules can add as many as 3 additional half-steps to a scale. They help you hit your marks when it comes to soloing, but you'd never want to try and label these as unique scales - its more like you learn the scale, and then you learn what you can do to make that scale serve your intention In a way I think the re-emergence of the G-run in multiple genres is just that; it's just this known trick that we can use to express rhythm and tonality, and it's pervasive in multiple genres, but like... is it really "a scale" like we think of various modes and whatnot? I dunno man, I dunno

[@TypingHazard]

Oh BTW this was a good video

[@LeonFeldmanMusic]

Great video! I teach it as the “major blues scale” as it is the major mode of the minor blues scale

[@michaelbaldwin6543]

I remember my neighbor practicing with his rock band in his basement more than a hundred yards from my house and we could hear him clear as a bell. Bluegrass is definitely quieter.

[@johnking8888]

The flat third is THE verb for American music; it will take you anywhere and everywhere !

[@monsterram6617]

It's a major pentatonic scale (R, M2, M3, P5, M6) with a minor 3rd used as a leading/passing tone. There are several "scales", like the blues scale and bebop scale, that aren't so much scales themselves, but depictions of a base scale with added outside tones. The main difference is that an actual scale has specific degrees that all function within the key. In these pseudo-scales the added chromaticisms do not function within the key, as they are leading/passing tones.

[@kofblz]

the major blues scale: 1,2,b3,3,5,6. The major version of the "regular" blues scale, which is the minor blues scale. G major blues scale = E minor blues scale.

[@tammanaq]

It's the major blues scale. Simple.

[@ermancroney3805]

It seems to me to be a theological base all other genres are built upon. You guys are 'out there' in deep water with this discussion.

[@MarkOutlaw-oy3qy]

I had that Happy Traum "Bluegrass Guitar" book when I was a kid! How I learned to play. I learned so much from it.

[@lordofthemound3890]

Reading guitar books back in the day, Arlen Roth called it (IIRC) the “country scale.” It’s the major version of the “blues scale” which is minor pentatonic with an added flat 5. So, from Am pentatonic, add an Eb. In its relative major pentatonic C, Eb gives you an added flat 3rd.

[@MightyTastyGuitar]

I just know it as the "major blues scale" ...Great video- thanks!

[@johnmurret2290]

Super fascinating and also really entertaining. You guys are great together in this format. The first thing that came to mind was Ophelia by The Band. It got even more pronounced when Levon played it with the horn section

[@markrobinson891]

I kept hearing Roy Orbison doing Pretty Woman too. I’ve tried to throw in some of those “rockabilly” licks into my bluegrass breaks. I’m not sure anyone notices but it’s fun.

[@jackbuckner3914]

Great format for a video!

[@kofblz]

Sister Sadie by Horace Silver (Hard Bop era) essentially has a G run in the head.

[@bryanhaslam]

Fantastic discussion

[@etienne844]

Guitar Boogie Arthur Smith ! Great video Guys .

[@mcaron00]

Cissy Strut It’s THE song that put me in my journey.

[@kevininman2013]

The thrill is gone! The great BB king

[@grassrootsguitarschool]

Hey Andy would you show us what you would do for a break on "Think of What You've Done" pretty please?!

[@mandohat]

@@grassrootsguitarschool verse or chorus?

[@grassrootsguitarschool]

@@mandohat Verse! but hey if you played over the chorus I'd check that out too :)

[@JuliaMarsh-o6k]

I’ve heard someone else say it’s essentially the blues scale just moved up the neck 4 frets.

[@Jack22VV]

Any chance you could do a video highlighting your thought process on improvising over a mixolydian tune like little maggie, salt creek, old joe clark something like that with the flat 7 chord in it

[@joydonmusic]

amazing discussion and I always learn a ton from you guys! but this scale most certainly has a name, the major blues scale. sorry if you mention that in the video lol

[@dannysmithmusic]

Dang, now we need a Pride & Joy video!!!

[@chinacat63]

The Grateful Dead's "Truckin'"

[@dodgermartin4895]

You guys are having way too much fun... while dopes like me wonder why I don't know none of that stuff. lol

[@patrickmaline4258]

it would help if they just said what they mean, but they talk and talk and drop hints about bits and pieces… musicians guard their secrets unless they like you.

[@phillipnewsome8247]

Sundown by Gordon Lightwood

[@flatpickindan]

Jaco plays a g run in Teen Town. 😋

[@llf6188]

Freight Train Boogie

[@sundaydiver]

Perhaps this scale does have a name: I came across it in Michael Hawley's book "Red Hot Country Guitar," where he introduces it as the "Country Composite Scale." He defines it as the major pentatonic with an added flatted third.

[@thefreese1]

Dan Kaminsky calls it the Jimmy Martin run

[@millerjeff]

The theme to the movie "Bonnie and Clyde"

[@ashevilleguitar]

I always called it a major blues scale ? :)

[@grassrootsguitarschool]

I don't need no doctor

[@dukeofearl4117]

So is this scale a major pentatonic with a flat 3rd?

[@mandohat]

@@dukeofearl4117 yes

[@keithchilvers7434]

And its been around for evermore, one of the earliest examples i can think of is Bully of the Town (1895)

[@oktwister]

Big Beaver.

[@Shekhar-o4o]

You people should look out side the box. There are at least 90 popular Indian ragas and many Arabic and Persian scales and modes to explore. And there are East European ones to explore.

[@mandohat]

@@Shekhar-o4o right on, man. Hayes and I can only teach what we know. As lifetime bluegrass musicians, we just want to share what we know. It'll be for someone else to teach those styles.

[@drewgibbons5464]

'till Nirvana messed everything up. This killed me, ya know, metaphorically. There's room for everything, we just wanted to do something different. Thx and all the best.