Terrible Protagonists

[@323starlight]

Interesting thing about Metroid Dread, Samus gets increasingly more stressed and angry as the game progresses. You can even see it in her animations.

[@noobguy9973]

Ngl it kinda seemed like they went the DOOMGUY way with here character in Dread ... which is a good thing, ı love me some badass action over words kinda protags.

[@323starlight]

@noobguy9973 it does make sense in lore. Samus is under a lot of stress, Not only were the X parasites, the most dangerous predator in the galaxy, alive. But also one of the only living chozo was shot dead in front of her, and the EMMIs constantly hunt her.

[@ProfessionalNamielleLewder69]

To be fair, she's up against some of the most dangerous and dreaded (hah!) creatures in the cosmos. She already knows the threat of the X Parasites considering one of them mixed Lingering Will and Crow Mauler in one fucked up package. But then you got the EMMIs, her asshole dad, the Metroids coming back and her own internal struggle.

[@thegreatgonzales6813]

They did more for her character in the few voiced lines of her's in Dread than Other M did in any moment of it's shitass runtime.

[@isauldron4337]

​@@thegreatgonzales6813*incorrect* Bait used to be believable

[@miguelperez9906]

Part of the problem with ruby as a protagonist is that ruby was basically a character at the end of there story . She was able to with a tiny amount of help take out somthing that would overwhelm professionals in her field. They had to regress her to give her any hint of growth.

[@docblack59]

Never watched the show, but it seems like her character would've been better if they went the flat character route with her. Basically what most Shonen protagonist are like Goku, Luffy, Izuku. Someone who others rally around and trust to get the job done.

[@Kira22558]

Exactly.

[@anubis7457]

@@docblack59Doesn’t Izuku get less crybaby and happy-go-lucky as it progresses? Pretty sure he even gets edgy at some point, Tokyo Ghoul style.

[@docblack59]

@@anubis7457 OFA is after him so he believes going solo will help protect the school and the refugees there. He wasn't really acting edgy just pretending he was fine despite the fact that he needed rest. Basically he tried to do too much for 1 person.

[@funnymisterm5014]

Volume 8: Atlas and Mantle are under attack by Grimm and the Salem is here! Meanwhile Ruby Rose: Drinks tea at the Schnee Manor while everyone suffers...

[@JangoFox]

If I had a nickle every time a Rooster Teeth show had the characters off themselves as the solution, I'd have two nickles. Which isn't a lot, but it's concerning that it happened twice...

[@323starlight]

Who was the second?

[@nobodybw1962]

​@@323starlightGen:Lock. Their tech girl killed herself out of depression, then reappeared again and revealed that suicide would give them the power up they needed to beat the big boss. I shit you not.

[@323starlight]

@nobodybw1962 oh yeah. I personally did not know there was a second season until well after the fact.

[@declanmckenna6854]

I'm pretty sure it's 4 because I know Church killed himself and I think Nomad did as well.

[@riotkitty]

@@nobodybw1962 yeah and then the rest of the remaining cast offed themselves & gave the villains the win 😅

[@arctic7465]

I think the writers intended that Ruby's character flaw is that she doesn't believe in herself but accidentally wrote it backwards. She believes she knows what is best but her decisions wind up blowing up in her face. However, whenever Ruby begins to question herself, someone else will tell her that she did the right thing. “You are perfect just the way you are. You are good enough.” What Ruby really needs to accept is that she isn’t good enough and she needs to be BETTER. However, the show will NEVER acknowledge that Atlas is her fault. From Beyond, it sounds like Ruby is treated as a great hero even though her actions have destroyed half the world.

[@kidprime6863]

If I may point out, Atlas wasn't Ruby's fault, ENTIRELY. Ruby never wanted Atlas to fall. She when she learned everything about Salem, the Relics, Ozpin's past and him having no final plan, she realized that some truths can be dangerous. Ever heard of the phrase "the truth hurts"? Neither her nor her friends took the news well at first. She didn't know how Ironwood would react nor did she know where he stood. She panicked. Not helped by the fact Ozpin practically abandoned them. So she lied and you can tell from both her expression and tone that she was uncomfortable with it. Based on their track record with trusting headmasters and how they saw the conditions of Atlas, as well as Ironwood's emotional and mental state of it all, withholding the truth for now until things calmed down was the best choice in this situation. If they told him the truth right then and there, he would've given up all hope and cancel the project altogether. What's the point of uniting the against a common foe if said foe is immortal? It's no-win scenario. Worse, what if he's secretly in league with Salem like Lionheart. Thus, Ruby didn't want him to give up like she and her friends almost did nor did she want to lead her friends into another trap. The saying goes "keep your friends close and your enemies closer". However, none of them anticipated Watts, Neo, Tyrian and Cinder being there. Ruby and co. aren't omniscient. Somehow, Salem's agents found out they were going to Atlas. Let's not forget that part of this was Ozpin's fault. If hadn't he locked himself in Oscar's head like a kid locking himself in his room after an argument with his parents, maybe Ruby wouldn't have had to lie. He only came out two times during V6-V7, both involved saving Oscar from death. Nothing more. He left the responsibility of getting Ironwood on their side on their own. What. A. Coward. As for the whole thing with Robyn Hill. Ruby and Co's mission is to unite the world against Salem. They want everyone to sort out their differences and work together to stop her. That includes Robyn and Ironwood, whether they like it or not.

[@SpaceGoat3126]

@@kidprime6863 Honestly the bit with Ozpin is completely right. mean sure he didn’t want to tell them because he thought if he told anyone about this info shit would go south, which it did, but what did he expect? Same thing with the villains pulling up out of nowhere. As far as team RWBY knew Cinder and Neo were dead, all they had to look for was Tyrian, Emerald, and Mercury. What I’m not gonna let slide is Ironwood. The dude has been on team humanity since day 1 after literally pulling up to Vale in order to protect it, protecting Qrow, protecting Weiss, and literally giving Yang another arm. As for his mental state, yeah I’d be the same way. He knew what was really going on with the Grimm and why they’re pressuring Atlas rn, but also knows that revealing it will not help at all. So the best he can do is protect his people any way he can, even if it means locking down the kingdom. He was working on a way to call for reinforcements and warn the people at the same time, but Robyn decided it would be a good idea to sabotage every single step in order to build a wall. Then the one group of people you know you can trust pull up and lie to your face while talking to the person sabotaging you behind your back…yeah he was gonna break eventually. Also even if working with Robyn was the best move for Atlas it’s really hard to work with someone knowing that they’ve been fucking you up for months(I believe she’s been doing it for months, I can’t recall) while also running for council and then openly opposing you there as well. I don’t like how he was handled considering the situation, especially when he really did want the best for his kingdom.

[@riotkitty]

Yeah from the V9 Epilouge and Beyond she is treated as the hero who didn’t screw up and caused the destruction of Atlas

[@arctic7465]

@@kidprime6863 Salem might have been storm, but Ruby was the captain that sank the ship. She managed to turn Ironwood into her enemy, use her silver eyes to kill ONE Grimm, never used the question from the lamp, never suggested putting the lamp in the Vault, lost the Lamp and the Staff, didn’t suggest transferring the Maiden powers to Winter or Penny earlier, and never tried to asking Oz for help. There are other factors that caused the fall of Atlas like Ironwood going off the deep end and Oz not telling everyone about the cane nuke from the beginning. I know you can’t blindly trust everyone, but they also have said “No more lies, no more half truths.” Trust is a two-way street. Ironwood hid nothing from them while RWBY lied. They are hypocrites. Why can’t we trust a Headmaster that isn’t lying but blindly trust Emerald and Robyn? RWBY and CO didn’t take the news well but eventually they got over it. Just rip the band aid off. Ironwood wouldn’t trust Oz but he would trust RWBY and they could come up with a plan to stop Salem. They can’t kill her but maybe they could neutralize her. You keep her in check by keeping the relics in the vaults and having strong huntsmen. Instead, she lied and it completely backfired. She doesn't have the decency to tell the truth herself or apologize. Ruby doesn’t need Ozpin to tell the truth, she can tell the truth herself. If the goal is to unite the world, why not do everything to get Ironwood as an ally? What if Robyn is secretly in league with Salem like Lionheart? You can’t lie to Ironwood who is doing nothing wrong in V7 while Robyn is stealing supplies and causing riots.

[@kidprime6863]

@@SpaceGoat3126 All those good things Ironwood did are true. I won't deny it. But that was before he became overburdened and sank into paranoia. The Atlas Military System is flawed. Ironwood should not have been left in command given his current and mental state in V7. If their military doctrine is anything like ours, Ironwood's current state would render him unfit for command. From a military standpoint, if a general is emotionally compromised, they will have to be temporarily removed from command and put under administrative leave (by force if necessary) until he calms down. If not then he's a liability. By then Winter will assume temporary command. Besides, he can't be the only general they have. Robyn only wanted what's best for the people of Mantle. She's Mantle's hometown hero. She wanted a seat in the Council to give Mantle fighting a chance with some political power. She wants Ironwood to hear Mantle's demands. If he won't negotiate with her, she'll negotiate with him. She only sabotaged to provide for the people of Mantle because Ironwood forced her to. He wouldn't put any elbow grease on Mantle's problems nor fix their wall. He prioritized the Amity Project and shirked his responsibility. He was supposed to prioritize both Mantle and the Project, not one over the other. Anybody who got in his way or questioned his decision, would be detain, arrested or worse get bullet in their brain. And when her attempt to get a seat in the Council failed thanks to Watts and Tyrian, she went back to sabotaging. Ironwood didn't WANT to negotiate with Robyn. Because of their clashing ideals and his paranoia stemming from the Fall of Beacon. Thus, he only saw her as an obstacle. If you're not with him, you're against him. All his talk about trust yet he has difficulty trusting in return. He refused to compromise and give Mantle whatever he didn't or no longer needed. He hoarded resources. I won't forget his insubordination during the Battle of Beacon. He sent the Atlas Fleet into the battle COMPLETELY ignoring Ozpin's warning that doing so would send the wrong idea to the public, considering his robots already got hacked and are attacking people. This impulsive action made him fall right into Cinder's trap. Roman hijacked one of the ships and started shooting them down. This allowed Cinder to further prove her point that Atlas is declaring war on Vale and the other kingdoms. He even went as far as to blame Ozpin for it saying that "If only Ozpin had listened to me". I don't know why Ironwood didn't get court-martialed for this stunt. Edit: I forgot to point out that Ironwood pushing Mantle's problems aside is what helped give Watts and Tyrian a backdoor into the kingdom.

[@Ratface0007]

In my opinion Ruby’s biggest weakness as a protagonist is that she doesn’t do anything. She doesn’t do anything to take initiative in her training or the fight against Salem. She had every opportunity to experiment with and develop her silver eyes only to ignore them. She sits around in a house in volume 5 only getting up to learn to throw a punch. She never goes out of her way to seek out means to defeat the villains, and when she does finally work up the gumption to get something done it’s usually in the form of a poorly thought out speech that no one would realistically let her finish. She’s almost useless in her own story.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

All of Team RWBY are basically useless in their own story

[@kidprime6863]

It's like she and her team are guest stars of their own show. Like I said, the writers prioritize the plot over the characters and their world. They'll do stuff with the characters and world unless the plot calls for it.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

@@kidprime6863 I know, right?

[@Macrochenia]

Everything I've seen about RWBY makes me glad I quit in season 5.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

@@Macrochenia You made the right choice

[@kingbash6466]

Ruby really does suffer from being a static character that's written like a dynamic character. The story acts like she went through some major character changes throughout the first 8 volumes, yet she's remained mostly the same, and it looks worse when you compare her to the other members of the team, who at least have noticeable development since Volume 1. Volume 9 tried to fix this with the whole "depression Ruby phase" thing, but it feels more like a band-aid solution since we practically had her go through this arc for one season, and it winds up with her being back to how she was before entering the Ever After, making the plot kinda unnecessary.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Agreed

[@jonnjones8263]

Thats not inherently bad thing. There are such a thing as Flat Arc Characters. Meaning they don't have major character arcs of change. This type of character simply isn't supposed to. This involves characters like Sherlock Holmes, Superman, Monkey D. Luffy, etc. This type of character's story isn't about how the story changes them but rather how they change others. Ruby has all the hallmarks of this kind of character. The real problem is that she doesn't actually impact the story or the world.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

@@jonnjones8263 Damn right

[@kingbash6466]

@@jonnjones8263 I guess that's my real issue with Ruby she has very little agency in the overall story of her own show. People recently complained about the Knuckles series with how he doesn't get as much screentime as Wade, and while that's an understandable critique, I feel like even he has more of an importance in that story compared to Ruby because he does help Wade become a stronger person and reconnect with his family. The most Ruby affects for most of the series is Oscar maybe, and even then, it's Ozpin and Jaune that has more drama with him than she does.

[@jonnjones8263]

@@kingbash6466 Yeah like I said it's not a development issue. Ruby doesn't LEAD the story. She needs to lead the narrative. Actually have the most impact on the plot. And she doesn't. She barely feels relevant in her story.

[@DataDrain02]

You know, it's kinda sad. Donte ends up being more likable if you set the language to Spanish, and mod a mustache onto him like that "El Donte" video.... Seriously, his Spanish VA has MUCH more charisma, and actually makes the douchebag persona work.

[@DarkPrince-yj1vf]

Pretty sure that's the whole reason why people call him donte since his Spanish VA is so good

[@soulcyclone360]

Better than the voice cracks and consistently inconsistent delivery the first four games had. Maybe that's just my preference showing but I'll stand by it regardless.

[@ElvenRaptor]

@@soulcyclone360 Stand by it all you want, but the first four games sold better. A lot more of us will stand by that.

[@soulcyclone360]

@@ElvenRaptor bro what? Only DMC4 out sold DmC before DMC5 came out. DmC is the third best selling game of the entire franchise. Stand by the facts mate.

[@ElvenRaptor]

@@soulcyclone360 Only because it was sold on more systems right away and only because it and DMC4 were the only ones to be given individual re-releases. Without Capcom actively trying to bolster it like that, DmC still flounders below all the rest, so I don't really count the Definitive Edition re-release. In its first year, DmC couldn't even make a million sales despite being a January release. In any event, the Classic Series is actually a Series, the individual games of Classic DMC were hits without the help of re-releases, and there will never be a DmC2.

[@LightingbladeShen]

CRWBY: "y'all remembered when we had Penny return from death and beg Jaune to kill her for a story point?! Wanna see us do it again with RWBY?" ANd that's why I reworked all of rwby to be 'better' (not that it takes much effort, crwby can't write to save their asses from their own suicide glorifying bs)

[@RickyUzumaki993]

I know, right?

[@kidprime6863]

And the fact that her death was barely addressed in V9 adds more insult to injury. To be fair, V9 suffered two or three delays and several rewrites. Penny didn't necessarily need to die.

[@dc7981]

Volume 5 dropping Ruby’s rivalry with Cinder that was set up in favor of giving it Jaune is just fucking baffling to me. Those two characters playing off each other had potential to improve Rubys character

[@RickyUzumaki993]

It is pretty baffling

[@whoevencares123]

"I hate Ruby Rose" "Why do you hate her?" "Well um she oneshotted me once and uh umm" "So technically, you would hate any other random teen that just happened to defeat you?" "No, I just really hate Ruby Rose!"

[@RickyUzumaki993]

@@whoevencares123 True. They didn’t exactly give that nemesis “relationship” any substance to it

[@riotkitty]

I think the two worst things that came out of Ruby drinking the tea are her so called friends and family just standing there staring at her for painfully long minutes on end while she drank the tea, and that the character development that Ruby got out from ascending was that she was perfect just the way she was, not that she screwed up and needed to improve.

[@nishchayjain1121]

Moral of the Story: Don’t let writers be incharge who only cared about putting their political ideas.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

@@nishchayjain1121 Yes indeed

[@jameslazaridis4180]

@@nishchayjain1121 just like your mom

[@nishchayjain1121]

@@jameslazaridis4180 it could be a joke coming from you but today is Mother’s Day and you have no right to say that.

[@PopfulFrost]

It's a weird form of emotional Libertarianism; basically "I act how I want and fuck anyone else's feelings", here taken to its most grisly conclusion... And the show just *goes with it.*

[@ShadowRoadX]

Miraculous Ladybug is definitely in the same tier as RWBY in that regard; Marinette/Ladybug spends four and a half seasons indulging stalker-ish behaviors towards her crush before we see an actual explanation as to why she developed them, and the show repeatedly doubles down on it all being okay due the status quo constantly being re-set. That and her inability to learn from her mistakes while the show props her up as being able to do no wrong in the eyes of the rest of the cast makes her development feel pretty damn hollow. And it gets even worse when she basically speedruns the entire finale of the initial story arc, only to actually screw up again at the last moment and the villain essentially wins.

[@ChiefMedicPururu]

I loved Ruby as a character. Then they butchered her after Season 4. Ironic how BlazBlue Cross Tag Battle, a non-canon game, did more with her than the show since.

[@Ability-King-KK]

Read the official RWBY manga if you haven't already. It also respects the characters, unlike Rooster Teeth.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

I know, right?

[@RickyUzumaki993]

@@Ability-King-KK Oh, most definitely

[@oriongear2499]

@@Ability-King-KK I wish it was the other way around, but it is what it is.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

@@oriongear2499 You and me both

[@Zetact_]

One question that I think a lot of bad protagonists fail to answer is: "Why do you care?" When someone is driving the story, but doesn't have a core desire that they want fulfilled in the story it makes the actions really lifeless. There's this really common thing, especially in gaming, for more blank slate protagonists to have this vibe of, "because it's my duty" which is dreadfully bland. Just giving the character a basic desire that informs their actions lets you still be ostensibly motivated by duty but add layers to the story that informs them - does the character want validation? Have an ideal they want to see carried out? Do they just find killing monsters fun? I don't think the character needs to be particularly deep, but having a motivation that can be explained beyond, "the MC does heroic things because because they're a good person" should be a bare minimum.

[@skyeschlueter9877]

This made me think of something that I think is pretty interesting: submotivations (this is not an actual term, I made it up. I'll define it here as why the character has their motivation) can be just as important as main motivations in defining why a character does what they do. For example, a character can have the rather boring motivation "because it's my duty" as their main motivation, but why they feel that way can be what defines their strengths and flaws. If they feel that saving the world is their duty "because no one else can", that opens the door to negative traits that could add dimension to the character. Maybe they're a control freak who thinks everyone around them will screw up saving the world or get in their way. Maybe they have crippling self-doubt because they feel that no one else can save the world, and there's a good chance that they can't do it either. Maybe because they are better suited to saving the world than anyone else, they're cocky and often jump into situations ill-prepared or they feel that they're entitled to victory. Asking why a character has their goal in the first place can be an interesting way to flesh out what makes them a person as opposed to a cardboard cutout of a chosen one. And that's with a rather bland primary motivation, too. The possibilities are endless if you just dig a little deeper.

[@trickytristan1]

I think Link in Wind Waker is a good example here. Like he rises up and accepts the duty to become the hero but this only comes as a result of trying to save his sister in the beginning.

[@BuryTheLight-tds]

And this is my problem with the Courier in New Vegas, why do they care Hoover Dam or the other factions? The only reason you came this far was to get your revenge on Benny, not to stick your nose in politics. In the end the Independence ending is the most satisfying and more rewarding of the rest because you're doing it all for yourself, not for some faction that you have no reason to care about.

[@gokbay3057]

@@BuryTheLight-tds "Why do they care" Well the player does get to decide which faction they pick. So it is up to the player on what their opinion on politics is and which side they support and why.

[@BuryTheLight-tds]

@@gokbay3057 In that case why does The Courier(not the player) care about Mojave? The whole thing with the chip was just a random job they took. They have no connection or attachment to the Mojave. So why would they even care instead of just walking away? Neither you nor the Courier has any reason to help the NCR or the Legion, especially the Legion. In my opinion, the House and Independence endings make the most sense as the Courier might as well as be doing it for personal gain. This is my problem with complete blank slate characters, at least in RPGs like say...Fallout 1 and 2 you had the reason to be out in the wasteland, either finding the Water Chip or the GECK. I feel like Dragon Age Origins did a much better job with a blank slate character, with each Origin story character having their own personal motivations for getting involved with the Wardens and the politics of the world, it's not just *your* motivations, your character too had a reason to get involved.

[@dspace4514]

Honestly, her not doing much but actually stepping up later on sounds good, but the way they went about it was so wrong to me. - In V6, Qrow tells the team not to steal an airship. Ruby insults him and they do it anyway, not realizing that they could have easily been shot down by Atlas if it got reported the ship was stolen, not to mention that it almost caused the destruction of Argus with the Leviathan. - In V7, she decides not to tell Ironwood because his decisions seem to be causing trouble in Mantle which granted, the situation isnt ideal, but i think Ironwood, the leader of the biggest army in Remnant, should know about Salem immortality. Its about right, not trust. Not to mention your anger over being lied to in the previous Volume. - In V8, Ruby sends out a message to the entire world about Salem. It seems people saw it as uplifting or whatnot because in Vacuo, she is treated as a hero, but the contents of her message are not uplifting at all. Like she basically said 'Ayo there is a leader of the Grimm and they are responsible for the Fall of Beacon. She is also immortal. Also, General Ironwood has gone crazy. But don't worry, we can beat her as long as we work together'.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Agreed

[@ES21007]

The biggest stupidity with that volume 6 one is that Ruby says that they managed to get this far without getting any help from adults or anyone else. Forgetting that the literal first fight in the series has her being saved by Glynda and recommended to Beacon by Ozpin saved again with Oobleck's help in Volume 2, plus Ironwood's army, saved again by QROW HIMSELF (an adult) in Volume 4, and because of her stupidity HE GOT POISONED... Yeah. Oh, and in the following scene THE VERY ADULT SHE WAS FIGHTING HAD TO HELP SAVE THE DAY.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

@@ES21007 Yes indeed. That was just stupid word vomit that she said

[@bachilles3285]

Honestly, Volume 6-9 should've just stolen the Cadmus Arc from Justice League Unlimited. Have Team RWBY and Co.'s dwindling trust in Ozpin lead to them compromising their morals to stop Salem by any means necessary (e.g. stealing the Lamp, taking the shuttle, keeping Salem's immortality a secret, etc.).

[@RickyUzumaki993]

@@bachilles3285 Yeah, but we don’t get that…

[@Gdsryrox]

One of the dummest thing about Ruby’s self deletion is that she didn’t change at all. She got a small flash back of her mother back when she was 3 babying her saying ‘your fine the way you are’ and everything was hunky dory desire the fact that was over 10 years agos

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Indeed

[@amirgarcia547]

As someone who’s written plenty of my own protagonists, I think some of the most major aspects of having a great protagonist is to make them likeable, or at least interesting if they’re written to be unlikeable, relatable and have a compelling arc. Since these characters fail in either one or more of these aspects, then it’s no wonder that they’re considered laughably bad protagonists. Ruby has had no development for like 8 seasons of RWBY, and the one time they tried it, it just felt very forced and awkward. Donte is an unlikeable and annoying version of a character we already knew and loved. And despite Chloe having some relatable aspects, her character never grows, she’s not interesting enough to make up for just how much of an a-hole she is, and she keeps her same egotistical “holier than thou” attitude for the whole game. And so hopefully people can use these as example on how NOT to write a protagonist.

[@KelShu]

I think the final nail in the coffin regarding RWBY's case was that in the vol 10 animatic, they tried to paint Ruby as a savior, despite the fact that she and her friends played a major part in the destruction of Atlas.

[@Ability-King-KK]

How could there have been a Vol 10 animatic when Rooster Teeth were basically telling fans that they'll make Vol 10 if they (fans) donate money to them?

[@RickyUzumaki993]

I know, right?

[@RickyUzumaki993]

@@Ability-King-KK Because they’re gaslighting liars

[@KelShu]

@@Ability-King-KK Sorry, I meant the Vol 9 Ending Epilogue animatic

[@jameslazaridis4180]

@@Ability-King-KKbro it’s 2024 and its company just shut down

[@Kushrada]

Some of the most egregious things with Ruby is there is an entire plot about her friendship and relationship with Penny. Early on Ruby identifies Penny's innate Humanity and provide Penny solace in this, she is Penny best and only friend outside of her father/creator. Penny would die near the conclusion of volume 3 and Ruby would witness the aftermath of Pennys death, seeing her lifeless remains spread across the area. Prior to this Ruby was fighting again Mercury to try and save Penny from the villain's machinations. She would be too slow, she would be too slow when her Semblance, a unique special manifestation of power/magic and her soul being speed. Ruby would cry but resolve to soldier on to protect the city. Ruby would then see her classmate Prryha die in front of her and her silver eyes power would activate and one shot the grimm and Cinder with no explanation. Now fast forward a few volumes to volume 7 where Penny comes back to life and has been alive for seemingly awhile now. She retains her Memories and received some upgrades. Ruby to seeing her doesn't really have a reaction. Which to be fair can be interpreted as Ruby showing hesitation accepting someone who she wrote off as being dead as now being back in her life. Ruby could have made peace with Penny's lose and has moved on only to have the wound reopened and made a sick joke of. But we don't get any introspection from Ruby about this. She spends the volume annoyed by Penny, ignoring her. There is a point where Penny is framed for Murder and her father is breaking down in tears as the people Penny once protected are calling for her death and Ruby sits there and asks him why he just doesn't shut her off to appease the mob. Ruby doesn't see Penny as ALIVE any more, which makes sense, death doesn't apply to Penny as a human would but DEATH can still happen to Penny, her father even says he cant keep bringing Penny back as he is tearing apart his own soul/health to do so. And Ruby doesn't care. Fast forward to Penny becoming the Winter maiden and all of a sudden Penny's humanity is no longer brought into question, Ruby treats her as a friend and person again even though Penny is still a robot just now with soul magic. It comes out of nowhere. But it gets worst. Penny is infected with a virus that is essentially killing her and taking away her autonomy. Before this happens Penny is on the run with Ruby's help, Ruby gaslights Penny and lies to her to further her own plans over that of Pennies own wishes, Penny is guilt ridden to the point of sacrificing her self to save others. Ultimately Penny is copied via magic BS and given a new Human body while her original body surcomes to the Virus and dies, its likely the original Penny was still aware and conscious when she died as she was grasping out to Ruby for help while Ruby was with her replacement. Now the series considers Penny a real girl now that she has a human body with a human soul. And she kills her self via assisted suicide because the fight goes poorly as the Heroes plan goes to shit. Penny is triple dead now and her Final moments aren't of Ruby, her best friend but of Winter...for some reason. And when Ruby learns of Penny's death in the following volume she passes out and the writers confirmed Ruby was told off screen what happened to her and we never get to see Ruby address it until Neo guesses that Penny died because of Ruby a volume prior. The whole thing is just the disgusting mess because its shown that Ruby kills herself due to the guilt of failing and screwing over so many people only to come back right as rain thanks to a literal regression of her character via deus ex machina. She is now a pre-volume 3 Ruby with all her memories of her life but none of the baggage if that makes sense. What the hell is anyone supposed to take away from that? I wish so dearly that she had sacrificed her life to bring Penny back, to finally be a true friend to her, but Ruby ascends to be a Ruby that doesn't give a shit about her failings somehow. so freaking glad the series died on that terrible note, absolutely deserved.

[@BurningAzure]

Let's just hope their attempts to bring it back fail miserably.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

I know, right? That shit actually pissed me off so much it gave me a massive headache trying to rationalize how *ANYONE* could call this “the best Volume of RWBY yet”

[@RickyUzumaki993]

@@BurningAzure Those attempts should fail miserably. They’ve pissed away every chance they’ve had to make RWBY good. They had their chance. Let it rest for now and reboot it later when the franchise is in better, actually competent hands.

[@wolffang489]

@@RickyUzumaki993 It sounds like this would be one of the few times I'd agree with a total reboot. The concept was so good and I'm glad I fell off as they were moving from KZbin to their own platform because I can just remember some semi-decent stuff closer to after Monty died. Who would be a good writer to take over though? Presumably someone connected to WB/DC.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

@@wolffang489 Nah. I doubt they’re gonna keep RWBY. They’re probably gonna sell it to the highest bidder.

[@cosmictraveler1146]

Fell off Rwby and didn’t know they literally had her self delete as a plot point and it be positive that’s so disturbing and disgusting, the show needs a FULL reboot wtf were they thinking

[@declanmckenna6854]

Also the method was through poisoned tea which she drank infront of everyone and the epilouge "episodes" has Yang take her out to get some tea at a Cafe (in a what's apparently an overcrowded city facing a refugee crisis as the the Big Bad is literally just outside the city boarders getting ready for another invasion because if the last one worked perfectly for her why not do it again)

[@chukyuniqul]

The reason I hate that the most is, honestly, because the "person finds their inner light" (where light is hope, kindness, courage, those kinda things) scenes are ALWAYS some of my favorites. The jaded mentor who finally roots for their pupil instead of using them to fix matches, the broken hero finding his new self, I eat all this shit right up because it always feels good. And the fact RWBY fumbled such a cheap shot is beyond boggling.

[@thefanwithoutaface8105]

Rooster Teeth actually did the whole "self delete as a good thing" twice. The first time was in Gen Lock and then RWBY, which makes me seriously wonder what the hell is going through those writers heads.

[@arnowisp6244]

I swear. Unalive and Self Delete are becoming so Common on the internet as Euphemism I expect it to appear in some Linguistic papers

[@arnowisp6244]

​@@thefanwithoutaface8105 They want to go to Canada where it is a Positive.

[@koleszgdanska7149]

Billy Butcher is a terrible person but an entertaining character. I just love talking about The Boys

[@Auzzymandias]

Bro loves talking about BOYS??? I'm watching you Drake

[@k-onlegacy]

Yeah so do I! I like re-watching it for that reason as well

[@Midnight-Starfish]

Except pretty much everyone in The Boys acknowledges that Butcher is a terrible person, it's just what they're up against is so much more awful that you can understand why he is that way.

[@TheRedMan77]

Butcher is a stone-cold bastard but he's both entertaining and you can easily see why he makes the decisions he does. Explains why he has a lot of fans. Helps that Karl Urban is also a really fucking good actor.

[@nishchayjain1121]

With Ruby Rose, the writers made her into someone completely different in Vol 4-9 and also I hate the fact the writers used a disgusting method to kill her off and then did, “oh, she came back from the dead” method and I didn’t like that. This was a reason why making your protagonist jaded and having an intent to make them more interesting character is simply an easy way for writers, which is in case for RWBY or in most Western Media in general where they push politics in their stories.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Amen to that, my friend

[@inoob26]

there is technically nothing wrong with pushing "some" politics into their characters but the issue is they usually suck at it

[@trolledfordrip]

@@inoob26 if there are in universe reasons then yes but there are no in universe reasons

[@RickyUzumaki993]

@@inoob26 Yes indeed

[@nishchayjain1121]

@@inoob26 I don’t mind political elements being there that don’t affect the story but it’s when that tried to push it too much and being part of the story. With RWBY that’s the case. I wish RWBY gets a reboot and hopefully see a light of day to respect Monty’s wishes, to be an Anime or can also be in charged by Dillon Goo. I wish he gets to implement his ideas and concepts, and can still stick with Monty’s ideas.

[@grawlix-man463]

Honestly the sad thing with ruby was just how much potential she had, and how she was set up. "Victory in a simple soul." Sure, people tend to dislike the happy-go-lucky protagonist, but the idea of her being a optimistic light in the darkness would've worked well...if RWBY actually went through with making Remnant a dark place with "bloody evolution" as a center rule of the world, shame it didn't.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

I know, right? That could’ve been so good in the hands of actually competent writers

[@thesquishedelf1301]

@@RickyUzumaki993 Or even just writers who stuck to the core concept.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

@@thesquishedelf1301 Or that

[@Ability-King-KK]

The problem with Ruby, like most of the characters in the series, is that her character WAS developing...in Vol 1 thru 3. Then Monty died and you can see the descent of the series and how the "writers" only cared about getting Yang and Blake together with absolutely NO build up. All of the other characters (minus Jaune since he was Miles' self-insert) suffered because of this. This is part of the reason why a LOT of people are happy that Rooster Teeth are dead and they hope that someone who actually cares about RWBY buys the rights and do it justice.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Amen to that, my friend

[@jameslazaridis4180]

@@RickyUzumaki993seriously… are you pretty that stupid

[@jameslazaridis4180]

Oh get lost.. maybe you just upset

[@Ability-King-KK]

@@jameslazaridis4180 What's that, Wasp? Did you have something important to say or did you just want attention?

[@RickyUzumaki993]

@@Ability-King-KK I think it’s the latter

[@morphtroniccelfon1]

Oh boy can't wait to see this vid on twitter and reddit cause you showed RWBY in the thumbnail, going to be fun and got popcorn ready.

[@Mangakamen]

uh oh

[@mercenarygundam1487]

Here come the crazed RWBY fans...

[@kirbo4964]

Here comes the rage of rwby comments

[@mercenarygundam1487]

@@kirbo4964 *L4D Horde sound effect*

[@LocalGooberGoobs]

@@Mangakamen Good luck, you’re gonna need it

[@whatsnewbois9814]

Honestly the best RT could have done with Ruby was going all in with the "Homophobic Ruby" meme. It sounds stupid but in context and if done right could have worked

[@randomcenturion7264]

XD I'd forgive everything they ever did if they made that canon

[@christopherbravo1813]

-imagine if they made her Christian-

[@wonder_lime2975]

"Plus, turning bananas into guns is just badass." Shows Polpo's banana turn into a gun and shoots himself *I immediately get an ad about Dole Bananas*

[@jonnjones8263]

The problem with Ruby has nothing to do with "development". The problem with Ruby is that she doesn't actually LEAD the story.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Damn right. She’s a side character at best in her own franchise.

[@RatchetClankFan112]

She’s nothing but a side character

[@chris1pimentel]

Went from RWBY the action anime school inspired show to RWBY the Soap Opera with no direction.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Sadly, that is extremely accurate

[@billyboleson2830]

Poor man’s soul eater basically

[@Chadjr2009]

@@billyboleson2830and poor women’s Avatar (both Last Airbender and Korra), with some elements of Kingdom Hearts.

[@TempestaDominus]

@@Chadjr2009 Poor man's korra is just sad

[@claytonrios1]

Chloe really feels like that leech of a girlfriend you'd have who is emotionally manipulative to the point where you never want to see her again.

[@thefanwithoutaface8105]

25:09 Stuff like that is why I believe RWBY would need to be rebooted in order for it to have any kind of a future. The writers clearly had no idea what they were doing or did a poor job and the story is basically an incoherent mess. The only way to fix it is to reboot it.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

I know, right? It’s honestly frustrating

[@infinitedreamer9359]

Yep. A hard reboot by people who are competent really is the only for RWBY.

[@blueredlover1060]

I did like Ice Queendom, yet I don't think that it did enough.

[@bachilles3285]

Thing is, there already *is* a reboot that's in the works: Fixing RWBY by Celtic Phoenix.

[@infinitedreamer9359]

@@bachilles3285 I meant a reboot in the official sense with the show being picked up by a indie studio that care to make something good. There are plenty of fanfics,comics,animations that are either reboots or AU and 9/10 they're better than the source material,which is when you know the writers for the main show failed. It's impressive that RWBY fits this weird area where it's concepts are cool but the execution of them is poor to middling. Gives just enough info for people to work with,but not enough to prevent from having to come up with your own stuff. Only other show whose fanwork that has that is MLB.

[@SnowDayJ]

Love how Roosterteeth made "Suicide is the answer" twice in their series. Gen:lockseason 2 was a mistake

[@mrhalfsaid1389]

I find that bad protagonists are the ones with writing that assumes they have agency but then having the story not work if they actually got what they *should* want. Tldr you need a protagonist to have consistency in their agency on average, so you can't jump from nothing to geopolitics

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Very true

[@iczer7788]

Okay I'm old so my view is that Dante came out during a time when angsty, mopey, pretty boys were all the rage. That made Dante a breath of fresh air because he, for the most part, wasn't angsty or mopey. It was refreshing. Hell the makers of the game never seemed to get what made Dante work, because they were always trying to force him into the angsty, mopey box. Heck my problem with the reboot was when they tried to sell me the game by telling me I was stupid for like 'old' Dante in the fist place.

[@isauldron4337]

Suppossedly they we're told to make dante different in the reboot

[@_mass_477]

"Not in a million years" lmao

[@setokaiba3518]

Do you even DMC2 Bro?

[@BurningAzure]

And to make it worse, CRWBY plans to bring back the show even after Rooster Teeth was put out if its misery.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

They won’t succeed. No one in their right mind will help them continue it in its current form. Someone else will get their hands on it and reboot it from the ground up and CRWBY will all be out of a job.

[@fangirl3323]

What's CRWBY?

[@RickyUzumaki993]

@@fangirl3323 The crew behind RWBY.

[@fangirl3323]

@@RickyUzumaki993 I mean like what's the c stand for?

[@RickyUzumaki993]

@@fangirl3323 Crew

[@guyturners]

What infuriates me about rwby is the idea of what could have, it had so much potential but constantly took the head scratching route

[@RickyUzumaki993]

I know, right? It’s beyond frustrating to the point of being rage quit inducing

[@thefanwithoutaface8105]

25:45 the whole Acension thing as a plot point is really messed up if you think about it. They try to frame it as something good, because it generally leads to becoming a better version of yourself, but you also forget EVERYTHING when you Ascend, effectively becoming a blank slate, meaning you die in all the ways that matter and the person who comes back is someone who looks and sounds like you but isn't you. All the memories, emotions and everything else that makes you you, that's all gone. It's only the superficial stuff that remains. Ascension is literally just you die but framed to be a good thing. Am I the only one who understands just how fundamentally fucked up that is?

[@littlebabyman8494]

Death isn’t something one can recover from.

[@Kushrada]

Its as disgusting as the Mind wipes from Fallout 4 for Synths done by the Railroad. They want to save Synths, and to do this they erase their memories, traits and personality, create a new persona to take that persons place and then call it a day that they "saved" them while completely ignoring the fact they killed all that was them to do it. A problem that the Railroad never considers when they do this is that Synths do not age so in removing all their memories of who they are they remove the knowledge of their nature so eventually they will come to a horrifying realization that everyone rots around them while they do not, what kind of life will they lead with out the knowledge to rationalize the true nature of their existence?

[@Pennywise12528]

Wait. Are you telling me that this big dramatic character moment was essentially her prestiging video game style?

[@Kushrada]

@@Pennywise12528 Do I think the writers of Rwby intentionally copied Fallout 4's synth plot? No. Do I think the writers put very little to no effort in examining what they were doing with Ascension and made something conceptually disgusting while thinking it was somehow a positive thing? Yes.

[@blueredlover1060]

I do think that the writers backed themselves into a corner and thought that this might be a way to make it right.

[@smugbowkid9919]

It’s telling that Ruby’s most interesting character arc in recent memory is her being homophobic

[@Ability-King-KK]

She basically said the words that actual RWBY fans were thinking.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

@@Ability-King-KK Yes indeed

[@CumCaptain]

Because when you force something that nobody actually wants and use your MC's downfall arc as a way to jab at the people who dislike it you tend to make people like the downfall version more than the original

[@SuperMaster000X]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

[@magdalenomartinezjr8805]

What a inspiring and wholesome heroine, i hope she doesnt do any harm to her wellbeing

[@GreenTomas2372]

When I first seen the thumbnail; I was honestly hoping that MangaKamen would include Niko Bellic from GTA IV. A more 3 dimensional protagonist than the rest of the series; some one who is willing to do unethical jobs but has a lot of good morals, is someone who is cynical without being depressing, he did snarky and sarcastic while being very subtle.

[@thomasraines1396]

When it comes to Ruby, I’ve come to the conclusion her story and the way she handles things would be like if someone played “Spec Ops: The Line” and came to the conclusion that Captain Walker was the hero of the story.

[@docblack59]

To me Shadow the Hedgehog in his own game. Don't know if it counts since it was due to poor localization, but said localization would do damage to the character for years.

[@jaretco6423]

Unfortunately, it's not. It is part of an mainline Sonic game. Even if it wasn't, it's still an hot garbage game anyway.

[@Orange_Swirl]

It's probably at least part localization, and part Sonic Team's REALLY stupid creative decisions. Honestly, the fact that the actual gunplay was the least bad part of the overall experience is REALLY telling.

[@docblack59]

@@jaretco6423 Moreso not talking about the gameplay but rather how Shadow was portrayed in the game. After seeing the Japanese version it was like seeing a different person compared to the EN version. JP was more true to what is seen in SA2, Heroes, and 06, but EN was a meme. The phrase "taking candy from a baby, which is fine by me" isn't even in the JP script.

[@dc7981]

@@docblack59 that line is taken from a non canon ending. The true ending is the one where Shadow acts the most like sa2 shadow lol

[@docblack59]

@@dc7981 Well a lot of the routes are non-canon. The point I was making is that things like that is how we got the Great Value Vegeta Shadow in stuff like Boom and the Zombot arc in IDW Sonic. Side note I like how in the Japanese dub of Shadow the Hedgehog one of the endings is "nah I just don't like you Sonic and I'm gonna be petty about it", it was funny.

[@abankson0346]

There is another main character that's similiar to Ruby Rose. His name is Captain Martin Walker and he's the "protagonist" of the game, Spec Ops: The Line. Here are the following main reasons how they're both similiar: 1. Their hero complex is a size of Texas 2. They both forcefully insert themselves into a delicate situation beyond the original scope of their assignment/mission. 3. They both tried to "help", but only screwed things up worse. 4. When things went FUBAR, they doubled down, claimed they had no fault in things going FUBAR and cast the blame unto another man (or onto a dead man). The only difference there is between them is that Walker is well-written then Ruby and her ENTIRE team and the things he did is more TRAUMATIZING then what Ruby has done. If you see this video, you'll understand what I mean: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y5OahZSCn8mLg8Usi=MRnqdEH7TOgf8EPL Also, in the end, Walker knows and breaks down at the shit he done to Dubai and the countless atrocities. And he was genuinly insane. As for Ruby, she's a hypocrite whos failure is due to being inconpetent and she is sane. I think the reason why Captain Walker was never mentioned is either because he's more well-written, has forgotten about him, or just never played Spec Ops: The Line. It's almost unsettling how similiar these two are.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Agreed

[@donutbevil9669]

Walker actually realizes that he's not as heroic as he thinks he is. He realizes this by the end when he goes completely wacko. Ruby just doesn't, and still sticks to the delusion that she is. That's not being sane. She's a psychopath.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

@@donutbevil9669 Sadly yes…

[@abankson0346]

@@donutbevil9669 I hate to imagine how they'll react if they bumped into each other and learn about each other.

[@LocalTreeGnome]

My glorious king MangaKamen has made another upload

[@IamMenaceVO]

Well said. I just discovered your channel recently, and have been binging your videos the past couple days. I'm a longtime fan of RWBY (Day 1 in fact), and have been writing fanfiction and been an active member of its community for nearly a decade now. To me, it's the most uniquely poorly written show I've ever seen, and it's absolutely fascinating to dissect WHY it's so bad. Even prior to V1, Ruby had lost her mother, witnessed her father battle depression, her uncle alcoholism, and her sister abandonment and anger. Then V3 happened where we were told she was childish and needed to learn that life isn't fair, and if she was ever going to have a breakdown, V4 would've been the time. Problem is that didn't happen, and JAUNE(!) in fact received more dialog and screen time than her, and despite all that had happened to Yang, she herself only received less than fifteen minutes of screen time, received a new arm in about a minute of screen time, "put it on" somehow off-screen, got used to it off-screen, and just like everyone else in the show, had to be TOLD her character development, which was BS in my opinion. The 6-8 month time skip also doesn't help matters. Regardless, RWBY has all the potential in the world as well as a die hard fanbase, and I wouldn't be the writer I am today without RWBY or its plethora of issues. Thank you for the great, well-thought out video, friend. God bless, and have a wonderful day.

[@nelm3269]

I gotta say. The initial trailer’s version of Donte, was absolutely perfect for the established world of the reboot. And I think the design was good too! If a character was trapped and constantly sucked into a distorted limbo version of reality, he would never be perfectly healthy. A malnourished, frustrated, angsty, snarky Dante would’ve been a cool twist on the goofball pizza time demon hunter. But then again, im a guy who likes edgy characters, if ninja theory at least committed to the trailer version, and by the end of the game he lightened up and maybe resembled the iconic version of Dante, the game would have probably been seen in a better light

[@Mangakamen]

Yeah, it probably would've been better if they did that. Like, you can even use the smoking part with that - Like maybe have him light a cigarette a few times in the game, and as the events progress, he elects to not light up a cig. And at the end, with Vergil's betrayal, while it'd be understanding if he lit up a cig to relax after such an ordeal, Dante crumples the pack of cigs, tosses it to the ground, and moves forward.

[@mercenarygundam1487]

Miles Luna, Kerry Shawcross, some of Rooster Teeth's Voice actors, and Thomas Asstruck are people who should be blacklisted on entertainment. RWBY and MLB had so much potential, but as we all know, the writers can't be assed to do decent creative writing.

[@Mangakamen]

Is Asstruck really his name?

[@mercenarygundam1487]

@@Mangakamen No, the proper spelling is Thomas Astruc. I just call him Asstruck because it's funny.

[@Mangakamen]

pfft

[@mercenarygundam1487]

@Mangakamen Yeah, I gave up on RWBY after Vol 6. The RWBY FNDM acting like deranged cultists whenever you point out the flaws just exacerbated my dislike for the franchise even further. If only the show became more like Spec Ops: The Line where the more RWBY does, they end up making things worse for everyone around them because they just keep pushing forward without any consideration of the rest of the world around them.

[@JMObyx]

Roosterteeth's idiocy was their downfall, frankly, a supremely deserved one.

[@PK_Miracle]

"Your choices don't matter." Thank you, Deltarune for making this clear so I know that my actions won't have weight. (Untill.....snowgrave)

[@someguycalledgoober155]

First off: I do like how Samus, to some degree, has a soft side for cute things. Saving the animals. I love that crap. Second off: Ruby, and all the characters frankly from RWBY, have under used traits. Her weapon lover quirk could have been used to have her do a lot. A: It could be used as a way for her to talk to the other characters, by doing maintenance on the gang's weapons. Because *everyone has a weapon,* could open up small talk. Heck, her sister got a robot arm in V4 she could work on, and her best friend (Penny) is just a robot... Not Just a Robot, but- you watched the show. Just saying, if Ruby was the one to upgrade Jaune's weapon in V4, and the gang's in V7, would have done a lot for her characterization. B: Be used to show how she handles stress, maybe after the death of Pyrrha and the first death of Penny she makes a new weapon in their honor, one that covers her own weaknesses as well. C: Useful in fights against humans and also world building. Her fight against the Big Shoe Lady, she could just know that the robot is a colossus from reading magazines and know that it's cannon takes a while to charge or something. Or heck, just figures it out by knowing machinery. D: Just even for cute/funny things. Maybe she makes weapons for commissions, maybe she digs through the garbage for good parts? Maybe Yang has to translate Ruby's techno babble into English for the benefit of Weiss and Blake. This *one* quirk can go so far if used correctly, issue is the writers just don't. With any of the characters really. Maybe Yang's really into bikes, so she somewhat understands Ruby's endless gushing on weapons? Maybe we could do more with Blake's character relating to the fact she was a terrorist, instead of boiling it down to harem anime with half, maybe three quarters, of the lovers are insane. Maybe Jaune could talk to Weiss of feeling pressure from his huntsmen linage, and Weiss having compassion towards him because of being in a similar spot. Maybe we can just remove Blake as a character? Possibilities are simply *endless* but they don't follow through with anything in a meaningful way. TLDR: Ruby, and everyone else, are under utilized. There's a lot more I can go on about for the character writing, but that's my main one.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Pretty much

[@eon1014]

There is one way in which Ruby committing [SUDOKU] could have potentially worked. If the show had actually gone out of its way to portray Ruby’s choice as being wrong and abnormal, and then shown how her decision negatively affects the rest of the cast in the long term, then we could have potentially gotten an interesting story out of it. Depressing, yes, but still interesting regardless. And if Ruby had been reborn/reincarnated via ascention, then the "new" Ruby could have had a character arc in which she learns about what her "previous" self did to become her, be horrified at what happened, and then come to terms with the fact that she owes her existence to someone commiting [SUDOKU]. And we could also have focused on how the main cast would have to come to terms with the fact that the Ruby they knew is gone and that for all intents and purposes, there’s a new person in her place, and then they would essentially go through the five stages of grief and whatnot. It obviously wouldn’t have been perfect and it would still be a questionable way for the show to end that part of the story, but we could have at least gotten something out of it, and the story wouldn’t have given us the impression that it was advocating [SUDOKU] as being a good thing.

[@Vegitodraws]

The most annoying protagonist I had to deal with was Barry Allen from "The Flash" TV show. I could vote the movie, but that'd be too easy. Barry in the show has 3 main issues that make him frustrating to watch: 1- He has ZERO agency and needs a pep talk every episode to get his shit together before being told the trademark catchphrase "run, Barry. Run" 2- He is fucking incompetent and talks to his opponents instead of just locking them up before they react and THEN questioning them. Nevermind him doing the whole Flash thing for 9 years and still needing a whole ass support team. 3- He learns the same 4 or 5 lessons every season before he just stagnates and becomes an awkward, cringey, ineffective mess

[@RickyUzumaki993]

That sounds so frustrating

[@thomasraines1396]

Another thing I find annoying about the show is that absolutely no one backs Barry when he’s feels something is off/wrong, he gets dumped on mercilessly by the other characters several times.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

@@thomasraines1396 Agreed

[@Vegitodraws]

@@thomasraines1396 no fr. Like why tf is everyone just cool with Thawne when Barry's concerns are VERY valid considering the motherfucker killed his mom and has done like minded things. Like, why tf is everyone Barry's opp when he has a valid concern. If they weren't doubting Barry in season 4, it likely wouldn't have happened 😭

[@Vortex-jc7fw]

Honestly the entire cast for that show got some of the strangest writing I've ever seen. For example, Reverse Flash was about to be deleted from existence because he messed with the timeline so much that reality itself had enough of him. But for some reason Joe got mad at Barry for not wanting to save RF despite all the pain he caused him and others because .....reasons?

[@XenoJehuty84]

GIven Rooster Teeth also had a botched concept with suicide in Genlock.... why am I not surprised it popped into RWBY? God they really ruined Monty Oum's baby.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Amen, my friend. It’s sad, isn’t it?

[@chasetanner4822]

I will NEVER forget that team rwby and her caused the destruction of atlas. Ruby on the way to atlas, got upset at somebody was lying to her. And yet she became a hypocrite by lying to ironwood. I feel like the tea that ascends you was a plot device so ruby can get over her guilt of her causing the destruction of atlas. It is like rooster teeth got tired of people complaining about atlas that they made a plot device to shut them up and essentially forced ruby to drink it.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Amen to that, my friend

[@artistanthony1007]

5 shows us why Uncle Dante is so amazing and DmC shows us why Reboot Dante just....sucks so hard, he has no heart and he's not human, he can't be relatable to the humans and when Vergil says humans can't fight Mundus, Dante doesn't step in and defend the humans and their adaptability and history to fight threats so why should I like him as a character?

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Agreed

[@bloody4558]

Sorry but I greatly disagree. Donte wasn't a bad character, he was a bad Dante. It's time you guys learn that characters DO NOT NEED TO BE RELATABLE. There are two kinds of characters that are considered good. Relatable characters and understandable characters. Relatable characters are characters that are usually adopted as protagonists or supporting characters, because it makes it easier for people who don't usually read to understand these characters by relating to their experiences. Meanwhile understandable characters are USUALLY deuteragonists, antagonists/villains(antagonists aren't necessarilly evil to be villains) and background characters. These characters DO NOT need to be relatable, so long as people can see where they are coming from. Main characters however are sometimes understandable in the same way antagonists are sometimes relatable. Donte is an understandable character, he is more of a rebel kid, so he doesn't really use the whole, Humanity is cool, narrative that you'd expect. Instead he is more of a free spirit kind of character, he doesn't feel the need to defend humans, because he is not there representing them, he is representing himself and his family. That doesn't make him a bad character in any way, shape or form. The only real issue is that this is not Dante but a different character entirely. And it's ok for you to dislike him for being different. But let us not say that he is a terrible character. DmC is not a bad game, it's a bad DMC game. It is actually a pretty good hack and slash game and would've been praised to high heavens if it was it's own franchise.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

@@bloody4558 That’s actually a good point

[@27Bayleefs]

@@bloody4558 Nah man I Seriously disagree. Characters need to be understandable and Relatable. We need to relate to why they do what they do, and understand what they bring to a narrative. Donte in the context of his game does this. But my dislike comes from the sheer fact he was Meant to replace the original Dante despite lacking the creative writing,witty jokes, and likable jokester for front. Donte is a Bad DMC protagonist because of who he was trying to replace.

[@bloody4558]

@@27Bayleefs you can disagree all you want, it's your right, but you're objectively wrong. Characters don't need to be relatable, so long as they are understandable. The only people who think otherwise, think too highly or too lowly of themselves. No one needs to relate to anything to understand something, humans all have emotions, the sole difference among them is their experience. You are literally telling me that everyone needs to be the same person otherwise you can't understand them. Is that really what you think about others?

[@Polifromia]

Worst protagonist? That's quite an obvious one when you look at Marinette Dupain Cheng where she lowkey just becomes a stalker

[@_alux_689]

Using dark themes to make your show more mature is like making your characters throw swear words every other syllable.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Indeed

[@daddyinthestreetsenpaiinth9250]

Castlevania.

[@Mr_Mistah]

Millennials LOVE doing that

[@RickyUzumaki993]

@@Mr_Mistah True. But at least, with darker themes, they can show more maturity when actually handled well.

[@topcat59]

Honestly it would’ve been cool if we get to see Donte get Ebony & Ivory by the person that created it, since DMC is a reboot and getting to see the origins where Donte got his iconic weapons in the series would’ve been awesome but sadly they didn’t do that.🐱

[@docblack59]

Yea would've been cool to see the Tony Redgrave part of Dante's past and Nel Goldstein who crafted Ebony & Ivory and was also like a 2nd mother to Dante. Maybe even Gilver if he isn't retconned( if ya know ).

[@JohnnyTightlips2007]

When it came to the whole Ruby thing. I was more interested in the idea that she would actually get reincarnated. Preferably from Ruby Rose to Ruby Reaper, an older version of herself that isn't playing around anymore and genuinely starts putting fear into Cinder. Another idea could be the eyes can see through Neo's illusions. But she's also less well nice about attacking her enemies and her friends have to actually earn back the Ruby they know.

[@Cheerful_Bliss]

Life is cringe company : “you’re playing a movie you don’t get a choice”

[@justarandompurplefox3243]

One of my least favorite protags ever is Corrin from Fire Emblem Fates. How do you make someone who turns into a dragon boring??

[@doodlebugfour7070]

I would also like to mention Yuma from Shining Resonance Refrain. Yuma and Corrin are practically the same character, even sharing the same Japanese VA.

[@Alexzander1989]

I honestly think the gameplay of the DMC remake was actually pretty good… but I completely agree that Donte was a massive downgrade from the Dante we all know and love. I think you hit the nail on the head with “it’s not a bad game, just a bad Devil May Cry game”. And I’m glad they went back to classic Dante when they did DMC5.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Agreed

[@onionfragments]

I like how RWBY just has its own section for this video. Fittingly, I might add.

[@nocount7517]

The only character arcs Jaune didn’t take up are Blake's and Yang's. And those two wound up being two of the worst characters in the series with the worst and most superficial ship I've ever seen.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

I know, right?

[@ShadowWolfRising]

'Terrible Protagonists' Kirito Unrelated though, given you like horror and Characters Studies, I'm shocked you haven't covered The Suffering or Shadows Hearts series.

[@soundrogue4472]

27:11 I knew RWBY took a fucking nose dive BUT THIS BADLY?

[@PhoenixFireZero]

I keep hearing that it had potential. Looking back at that, I'm not so sure that potential wasn't a fluke

[@Axel_Kasai]

​@@PhoenixFireZeroit probably was since it was coming out at a time when anime wasn't mainstream. Or not nearly as mainstream as it is now

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Yes indeed

[@RickyUzumaki993]

@@PhoenixFireZero Potentially

[@RickyUzumaki993]

@@Axel_Kasai More that it wasn’t nearly as mainstream as it is now

[@guyk768]

MangaKamen: Is this an out of season April Fool's joke? Well, this was uploaded on Mother's Day, so we'll see. I'll check this video out later today. Happy Mother's Day everyone.

[@jvts8916]

Out of all the games in the Neptunia series, I'd say Victory has the worst protagonists in hindsight. First there's Neptune herself. Basically, the writers noticed Nepgear was basically getting a similar reaction to Raiden and turned her into a punching bag. Neptune's character growth where she started working hard to help her sister out was reversed so we'd have the lovable goofball protag back. So everyone was happy again... except I specifically used Raiden as my comparison for a reason- people's reception to Nepgear grew warmer over time. And given many of the jabs at her came from Neptune herself, this eventually became the most unlikable portrayal of her, and that's ignoring her odd lack of reaction to seeing her adopted daughter brainwashed. In comparison, Victory!Plutia's problem is very simple. She's a sadist from a time when we thought Christian Grey was a healthy portrayal of one. So she abuses her friends and enemies physically and psychologically and it's played for laughs.

[@jaretco6423]

The thing that pissed me off more about Other M is that; in terms of chronically, it set between the events of Super & Fusion. If this was Samus first adventure before Metroid 1 or Zero Mission as my prefer way of Metroid 1, than the way Samus is portrayed, how she use to join Federation Force, met Adam and than going as an bounty hunter would make sense theoretically.

[@isauldron4337]

Nope that's not How the lore works

[@jaretco6423]

​@isauldron4337 Than how does Samus being terrorized by Ridley make any sense when she thought that thing like.... 10 times in the past when no hesitation? Especially after Super?

[@tamerofthewilds9987]

Honestly? If possible? Aloy from Horizon Zero. I dunno, her appearances between the first and second games felt different. She didn’t feel like she really grew and she was always super cocky and all, and while I don’t mind an intelligent female character trying to navigate both the long forgotten future and the far off past, to put it poetically, she just felt…empty. She’d mock and look down on almost every other character around, and sadly the characters she was around most were male characters. In Forbidden West she suddenly felt a lot more disrespectful to Erend, who was a pretty cool guy in Zero Dawn. I’d love someone who has experience with this going over her as a character. I hope I’m just the crazy one, but she felt…like she either hadn’t changed, or something about her had for the worse. That or maybe she was just not the best protagonist for the story she was in with the cast she was around. It pushed me away from even playing Forbidden West and I need to get through it tbh. Love the game. Just…sometimes she really doesn’t feel like a consistent person, especially not with the random romantic tensions scattered about when love never seemed to be something she even had a clue or care about.

[@RigalicReign]

Homophobic Ruby was the best send off to a dying series that show could have asked for, because years of watchin that series drag itself across broken glass pandering to people who wont watch it while continually driving away the OG fans hurt. I can't even flip all my old merch and models, outside of Weiss which I'm not, to get anything back from that train wreck

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Agreed, my friend. Now all we have left is fan works that treat the characters and world way better than the original writers and cast ever did

[@leblanc3536]

Worst protagonists? Is it too cliche to say the cast of FF13? The party who’s big brain scheme to stop the bad guy’s world-destroying plan is by doing exactly what he wants, then being surprised when it starts to destroy the world

[@1BadAssArchAngelvs14]

I mean the Fal'Cs are basically SCI-FI Robot Death Angel AI that were designed to destroy the world and bring the creator back. yet the FF13 cast was too obsessive ,and blind about their own problems to do anything at all throughout FF13's story.IF the FF13 cast knew from the beginning of being branded Le'C that the main bad guy was going to win in the end then whole plot would be about getting to Eden as fast as possible to kill Super Pope Bartahnadlus.

[@leblanc3536]

@@1BadAssArchAngelvs14 don’t forget, they’re literally saved twice by deus ex machina

[@1BadAssArchAngelvs14]

@@leblanc3536 FF13's whole story issue is that it should have been a much shorter game Like FF10.

[@Sorain1]

It's funny to me how FF8 did that same idea better. (It's still a damn hard sell of an idea.) Enemy is in the future, we've no way to get at them... unless we let them compress time and hit them with time compressed. Mind you, no one brings up the obvious "Okay, but how do we know the compression will undo itself, or how much collateral damage this is going to cause?"

[@masterseal0418]

God, it wouldn't be the two bad Devil May Cry games without Dante getting stabbed, thus activating the devil within and transforming into a badass monster with unique abilities depending on the weapon equipped. DMC2's Shin Majin would've been understandable if Dante obtains the SDT amulet, and gets shanked. This as a result updates his DT, and unleashes the 'true devil'. Lucia was terrified by this form at first, but she later realizes Dante saved her life, and thanked him for it. Anyways, Donte, Chloe, Alex, and Mindy Kaling Velma are complete jerkasses, but you're not wrong about Reigen being beloved despite his antagonistic behavior. Other villain protagonists in fiction like Travis Touchdown from No More Heroes, Crypto from Destroy All Humans, Invader Zim, Lelouch from Code Geass, Light Yagami from Death Note, Alucard from Hellsing, and Blitzo from Helluva Boss remain likable whilst having consequences for their actions, and the qualities that make them assholes. But the earlier four are bad examples. Even as a fan of Devil May Cry, I think DmC is decent, but the characterization, unlikablity of Donte, the story, and lack of lock-on held it back a ton. Making more sense when you realize Dante's voice/mocap actor from the main canon Reuben Langdon was disappointed with how the reboot turned out. I don't blame him, he's such a chill guy, and I respect his interests in pseudoscience and politics as usual. To end this comment off, I find it insulting how Rooster Teeth could mishandle the themes of suicide not once but twice in a row with Gen:Lock Season 2 prior to RWBY Volume 9. The former decided to focus less on the mecha elements, and had awful sex scenes to boot. I've admitted on Twitter about Attack On Titan being more mecha than Gen:Lock thanks to one commenter pointing it out. AOT still kept mecha-elements, except through skinless giants rather than get a character into the fucking robot cuz their father loves them(Evangelion 4Kids Opening joke there). Even Symphogear is more mecha as well, though it's more in vein with the magical girl genre. But who knows if either RWBY or Death Battle could continue after Rooster Teeth went through the same fate as Machinima. But WBD would still be kicking the cadaver until it breathes again. If it wasn't enough for Darth Zaslav backstabbing their reputation, interfering with their 100th anniversary, and Cartoon Network/Adult Swim begging them to not fuck them over(but they refused). Warner Bros Discovery loves to butcher the properties made iconic from them intentionally, now do they?

[@Angelofdeth20]

Funny thing with Ruby is you could remove from The first 3 seasons up till the very end and nothing important would change.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Yes indeed

[@alphawolf7417]

If anyone ever takes ownership of RWBY after RT dies, they need to do what Archie comics did to all of Ken Penders shit. Yeet it all into the void and reset the universe to where none of that shit exists, and anything that stayed is vastly improved.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Amen to that

[@Sorain1]

Open up with a redo of volume 3, showing things starting to go their own way, and have the big fight at beacon be where things fully get onto the new track. That's the advice I would give.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

@@Sorain1 To be fair, even things in the Monty era have a lot of room for improvement.

[@tbspromotions]

20:28 being a DMC fan, I can still understand your takes but, I do still love Dante lol. I played DMC 5 infront of my gf and now she's a fan of the whole series.

[@NecroCh]

I had no idea a third life is strange came out

[@Mr_Mistah]

Because it was commercially a massive failure

[@ResearcherGhost]

I'm the only one that Thinks Iroonwod was vol 7 protagonist? because I sided with him in every decision he took on that volume

[@blaquerose121]

Yeah I did too, but that’s not the writers wanted us to think so they just said “make him a cartoon villain”

[@juliusbossman7280]

It felt like the writers wanted Jaune or Oscar to be the main character but couldn't because Ruby and her team's name is the show and it would disrespect Monty's work.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Yeah, it kinda does feel that way

[@SkyEcho751]

Marinette/Ladybug and Adrien/Chat Noir is another example of poorly handled characters. I gave up on the series just after season 5 started, because the characters, both the main 2 and the supporting cast, just got worse over the series. Marinette becomes an outright stalker, and this repeatedly causes issues. While Adrien borders on Nice Guy territory and never really gets chewed out for his behavior, and the one time he 'tries to be better' they make it out like Ladybug can't be a hero if he isn't flawed. It doesn't help that it feels like constantly the stuff a character does right ends up getting thrown in their face, but when the character does something wrong, they rarely seem to learn from their bad behavior. Like Chat Noir literally ditches being a hero because Ladybug rejected him, and refuses to be a hero, but he doesn't even get warned for his behavior.

[@ElvenRaptor]

Correction, the main character of RWBY is Miles's self-insert, Jaune Arc.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

And he sucks too

[@randobandobby6443]

ngl I was up to date with life is strange and a little bit with the brothers story but that transition when you were like "and finally, life is strange true colors, Alex." and her immediately eating a bullet, and then falling through boards made me laugh out loud.

[@jakeforgey5378]

RWBY volume 3 was where Monty Oum, the original developer and the one directing the series as whole, thus the one who had the blueprint in total, died. I think it was halfway through when the pacing suddenly changed and got more off tempo and hurried... which lead to the rest of the series...

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Yes indeed

[@Sorain1]

They had the blueprint, well most of it, but rejected that and drove those closest to him out. The result is there for us to see.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

@@Sorain1 And now RT has been shut down and we don’t even know what’s gonna happen to RWBY.

[@jakeforgey5378]

@@Sorain1 yup

[@ChristianGibbons777]

19:43 Well actually she says a few lines in the game but, only when speaking the Chozodia language of the Chozo to her fellow Chozo. Who was kept hostage by Raven Beak. Literally in Dread.

[@Jimboh1637]

18:46 I’ll just say if he wrote his name instead of writing a curse word that scene could have been salvaged. Unrelated but Donte's outfit is just too grey. The jacket and pants needed the red graffiti from the TGS 2010 design and the jacket should have been darker/black to stand out more, imo.

[@denizplays1307]

RWBY kinda of fell off after Volume 3 after the creator, Monty Oum, passed away due to an allergic reaction to aspirin if I remember correctly, I don't know if Monty passed away mid- or after production of the 3rd Volume, because Monty did not just all the animations and fighting scenes but also worked on the writing, so when Volume 4 came out, which of course was the first volume after Monty's passing, the fanbase was divided that RT continued the show without the show's creator, some say they shouldn't continue the show, some say the show would've been better if Monty was alive, etc. Though I wish Burnie Burns could've also worked on this project as well, I don't know if fantasy stuff is his kind of cup of tea but his writing on Red Versus Blue, AI, The Director, Agent Carolina, etc. was just flawless, like everything is just flawless, so I don't know if he wasn't interested or was constantly busy with being the boss of RT back then, taking care of RvB, the podcast etc. and with RWBY: Ice Queendom, I don't know if it's an improvement or a "reboot", because it is something I did not expect and wouldn't mind but feels off that's a thing, not in a negative way btw etc. With all that said, I miss Monty and the first 3 volumes are the ones I like the most ... well except V7 (maybe), V8 & V9! And the first-ever trailers were fricking fire back then!

[@comparc1972]

That's not really true since Monty hardly did any of the writing. Almost all of it was done by Miles and Kerry and they were part of the team since the shows conception. Monty was never the lead writer and Miles and Kerry didn't suddenly take over after volume 3.

[@ZeOHKay]

IIRC Monty died when V3 was already in the final stages of post. Plus, much like how Monty probably didn't leave behind nine volumes worth of material before he died (which...I honestly don't even remember where the hell I heard that from), he apparently didn't really contribute much to the show's actual writing outside of the initial concept and worldbuilding... though if that is the case, I think that says a lot more about Miles and Kerry's skills as writers then anything. As for Burnie, aside from voicing Taiyang he is also credited as a producer...but AFAIK he probably didn't have much input and was pretty much just footing the bill. That being said, I do think it would have been interesting to see how Burnie would have handled RWBY if he WAS a writer. Also, Ice Queendom isn't really a reboot, but more a loose side-story/spin-off. Think kind of like the Dragon Ball movies, where they're mostly original stories existing within their own canon.

[@RickyUzumaki993]

@@ZeOHKay Yes indeed

[@SSFplayer2]

All I can say is buddy from joyful, she just straight up went from defenseless girl to somehow girlboss who can beat up a furry wrestler in a very short time span lol

[@nvnvnv13]

"Unless you're Velma' AHAHHAHAHAHHA. Holy sht, that came out of nowhere, I legit did an anime spittake 🤣🤣🤣 Bad news is, we gonna get a second season of this sht show. Oh boi 😅

[@bahesb2419]

I’m surprised you didn’t mentioned The worst protagonist of them all in your video: Velma

[@Mangakamen]

I actually did.

[@RedPineaplleStudio]

Warning for those who came to hear a critique of Mob's character: there isn't any. Kamen just explains the appeal of Reigen, which is good, but still.

[@grimaldus7380]

Ruby, hell, all of Team RWBY’a actions put them on the level of Evil as Richardson’s Enclave and Eden’s Enclave

[@RickyUzumaki993]

… Not that I don’t agree… but how so?

[@grimaldus7380]

695, Richardson’s and Eden’s Enclave’s didn’t destroy two cities, steal MILITARY ISSUED EQUIPMENT, damage Military equipment, cause the death of thousands, property damage, and treason

[@grimaldus7380]

Well, for one, the two Enclave’s didn’t destroy two cities, possibly killing thousands of people and displacing far more, damaged public, private and Military property, caused destruction on large scale, didn’t notify military or actual huntsmen of terrorist cells in Vale, and are led by a child who should have never gotten the rank of leader

[@RickyUzumaki993]

@@grimaldus7380 I see

[@grimaldus7380]

@@RickyUzumaki993 Hell, Team RWBY may be worse then Richardson’s and Eden’s Enclave

[@nopenopington2880]

*Banana turns into gun.* "Bite into deals with Doordash!" Perfect ad at the perfect time.

[@orcaroomeii8019]

The Fairy Tail MC cast. At first they were alright, but I was really young at the time and didn't get into the nittier, grittier side of writing until age came through. I look back, and realise they're all static despite how dynamic they're seemingly written otherwise. "All's good > oop traumatising event oh no > All's good!" The Friendship theme, I don't dislike. It's cliche, but cliche never meant "Bad". It's the fact that they don't REALLY change after everything they go through that pushes me away from them. Otherwise as a World, FT is pretty cool!

[@NekuLudwig]

I've always had the head canon that in rwby, volume 4 and onwards was a comatose dream ruby had and i honestly wish the series ended at volume 8 with ruby waking up, as though it was a nightmare

[@RickyUzumaki993]

I wish. Unfortunately, we don’t get that…

[@ondururagittandeska2004]

9 Kamen Riders went through more character devlopment than Ruby did in her entire show

[@RickyUzumaki993]

Which is sad

[@stonie3216]

Clicking on the video and seeing Mob within the first 5 seconds triggered me lmao

[@uroskesic6117]

I would love to see Kamen talking about the main protagonist of Baiten Katos 1

[@samflood5631]

And why is that?

[@drnemo4820]

12:39 damn they haloed her "there's a guy in my head that calls me Stud Muffin".

[@Shylunar64]

Used the wrong thumbnail in the video, it was your villain one lol. Other than that, can't say I diagree much with what you said. I hope to see you talk more about protagonists/heroes just like you've done with villains.

[@squeethemog213]

It is always interesting to see you talk about characters. This is no different. Thanks for another fantastic vid 😄

[@sludgy4468]

The fact is, even after Ruby's death, she doesn't learn any lessons.

[@millo7295]

Choice based games should not be linear

[@DangerDan64]

26:21 MangaKamen: "Look, people, I know it's our job to invest in this character, but I think she's a lost cause! She's obviously made up her mind. Why not we just cut our losses and get out of here!" (This is a joke, I only made this due to how he brought up a Smiling friends clip here. Nothing more, nothing less.)